WEBVTT 1 00:00:00.080 --> 00:00:08.800 This might be a bold one. One of my predictions for 2026, we're going to see less podcasts, but I actually think this might be a good thing. Interesting. 2 00:00:09.300 --> 00:00:16.350 My prediction for next year, the future of the creator economy is in person. That's been a major theme among all the people we've spoken to this year. 3 00:00:16.420 --> 00:00:24.310 Communities are a big thing, and they'll become a bigger thing as we go on. What do you think is most different compared to, say, a year ago? Trends that we saw in 2025. 4 00:00:24.560 --> 00:00:30.560 Two of our most popular episodes were with YouTube-focused sewing creators. People are super engaged. 5 00:00:30.640 --> 00:00:35.739 Once you become invested in the craft, you're invested in the creator, and then you're kind of invested in everything they're doing and everything they're a part of. 6 00:00:35.760 --> 00:00:46.140 And that's a metric I always like to look at, is like how many people are watching on TV. That's a good indication- Mm-hmm... of, like, commitment to watch. That maybe builds a really strong parasocial relationship. 7 00:00:48.320 --> 00:01:01.380 Welcome back to the Creator Spotlight podcast. My name is Francis Zierer, and today I am joined by two very special guests. I'm Natalia Perez Gonzalez, the assistant editor at Creator Spotlight. 8 00:01:01.390 --> 00:01:07.720 I am Tom MacLeod, the producer of the Creator Spotlight podcast. Yeah, and the three of us have never done a podcast together. 9 00:01:07.820 --> 00:01:19.200 Uh, Natalia has been on with some other guests a few times this year, but we've never, just the three of us, no external guests, sat down and talked about all the things we've learned from all these conversations. 10 00:01:19.240 --> 00:01:29.440 So we want to, for the last episode of the year, come together, talk about some of the best bits, what we learned, what we think is coming in the creator economy next year. Hope you enjoy. 11 00:01:31.020 --> 00:01:45.400 I, I guess if we're, you know, talking about trends that we saw in 2025 is, and it, maybe it didn't start in 2025, but I definitely see it every single day of 2025, which is, um, doing X until Y. 12 00:01:45.750 --> 00:01:53.800 [laughs] Do- like doing this one thing until I get 10,000 followers. Kicking a rock until it turns into a sphere. Like d- you know. Oh, I know that one. 13 00:01:54.480 --> 00:02:00.860 [laughs] Not cutting my hair until Manchester United win five games in a row. Win five games in a row. [laughs] Yeah. Like, these things that people... 14 00:02:00.880 --> 00:02:10.259 A- and you might scroll past it the first time, but then the second time you're like- Mm... oh, day 72 of this guy doing this thing. Has something happened yet? Oh, day 120 of this person doing this thing. 15 00:02:10.340 --> 00:02:20.040 And I think it's, it works great for short form, but there's usually no end goal. Like, or, or there is an end goal, but then there's no, there's no benefit to the end. 16 00:02:20.120 --> 00:02:27.340 You ha- you might have more followers, but how are you gonna parlay that into something else? How are you gonna monetize that? Well, I have... No, I have the answer. I have the answer. 17 00:02:27.440 --> 00:02:39.200 The, I mean, the, the point of it is that it establishes that this is a show and not just, like, a one-off video, so then it, like, it builds that recognition. It's usually they're leading the video with that as well. 18 00:02:39.260 --> 00:02:48.210 The, the Man United guy, for anybody who is listening and hasn't seen this, Manchester United, the English Premier League football, soccer team, are terrible right now. 19 00:02:48.220 --> 00:02:55.010 They haven't won five games in a row for quite a long time, and this guy, a little over a year ago now, said, you know, he, every, every day he posts a video. 20 00:02:55.180 --> 00:03:00.880 Day whatever of not cutting my hair until Man United win five games in a row. He's got so much hair now. 21 00:03:00.900 --> 00:03:07.660 [laughs] He started with, like, no hair, and it's, it's just ridiculous, and the, there's, there's no end in sight for him. I think they got three at one point, but anyways. 22 00:03:08.180 --> 00:03:19.440 You see that, and it, it just becomes this show where, like, as you're flicking through the channels, as it were, of Instagram Reels and your infinite scroll, it's like, oh, I know this show. Um, and maybe you like it. 23 00:03:19.480 --> 00:03:26.680 Maybe you linger on it for a second because if you've seen it three times, you know what to expect. And then either it's for you or it's not, but, but then- But then what does he do when he has to cut his hair? 24 00:03:27.480 --> 00:03:38.100 Well- Like, he cut, he cuts his hair. They win five games in a row. Then he cuts his hair. Now what's his schtick? Is he just gonna be talking about Man United? Is he just gonna be a football commentator on Instagram? 25 00:03:38.160 --> 00:03:48.420 Like, I think people lose interest after that. Once you've completed the thing- Precisely... and for Thomas Jam, it's not an example, but i- it's not the same because he's making money, right? Yeah. 26 00:03:48.500 --> 00:03:56.400 Like, you know- That's the whole thing. And there's, there's an end. And he's- There's like an end in sight... he's made ten... Yeah. Yeah. And he's just made 10 grand, and he can keep making more money. But for 27 00:03:57.960 --> 00:04:07.650 someone growing their hair, maybe- For the United strand. [laughs] Yeah, yeah. It's, uh- Well, for him, I mean, he, I've seen him as a talking head. I've seen clips of him as a talking head on some shows, so I think... 28 00:04:07.680 --> 00:04:14.470 I don't know how many followers he has now. It's hundreds of thousands, I believe, though. But for him, either he can parlay it into something. 29 00:04:14.600 --> 00:04:22.599 Maybe he does s- like, uh, you know, a deal with L'Oréal or something like that, some shampoo brand deals. [laughs] I've seen, I, I've seen- Maybe... 30 00:04:22.610 --> 00:04:29.530 I, I have seen him do some brand sponsorships with, like, a, you know, hair cream products. Yeah, but either it's his 15 minutes of fame or, like- Yeah... 31 00:04:29.540 --> 00:04:33.260 or he does parlay it into something else, but he doesn't have to, right? I don't know. Mm. 32 00:04:33.320 --> 00:04:42.480 How would you, Natalia, how would you, if you were this guy, how would you parlay, you know, a few thou- few hundred thousand followers off of this gimmick into something lasting? 33 00:04:42.660 --> 00:04:51.960 I mean, I feel like what you just said with, like, getting the, the hair deals, but that's just, like, me. I'm thinking of myself and, like, my personal hair journey and how I would, like, leverage that. [laughs] Yeah. 34 00:04:52.000 --> 00:04:56.560 But I'm just like, how do I get, how do I get money out of this? Like, how do I get more brand sponsorships? But- Mm... I don't know. 35 00:04:56.620 --> 00:05:04.940 I feel like also thinking about serialized content and, like, trying to continue finding, like, a new thing to, like, a new, like, a new stakes to build. 36 00:05:04.980 --> 00:05:14.440 Like, I'm thinking about, there was, when we, when I wrote the, the viral episode pilot, um, piece with, like, Sydney Jo in the group chat, and- Mm... 37 00:05:14.480 --> 00:05:20.640 it was like, it started out, like, you know, with this one story that is pretty universal. 38 00:05:20.700 --> 00:05:25.900 And I feel like that is, like, almost, like, the trick when you're doing, like, you're starting a new series, like, where it's like, oh, there's a group of girls 39 00:05:26.900 --> 00:05:31.340 planning, in a group chat planning a dinner, and, like, one of them invites their boyfriend, and, like, everyone gets mad about it. 40 00:05:31.400 --> 00:05:38.700 And it's like, okay, like, we're all gonna, like, silently fight about it, and it's like, that is, like, an, uh, an experience that we can all, like, in a group of girls can relate to. Mm-hmm. 41 00:05:38.860 --> 00:05:44.300 Um, and so I feel like when finding new things, when they're, like, either as niche, 42 00:05:45.740 --> 00:05:54.500 like, almost zooming out and choosing, like, a, like a, like a more universal narrative makes it so that you can keep stretching it out into new storylines. But yeah, I don't know. 43 00:05:54.540 --> 00:06:03.520 I f- I find it all kind of interesting how that ecosystem works. I really like serialized content, especially, uh, I'm thinking about YouTube particularly, I think. 44 00:06:03.620 --> 00:06:15.112 Like, um, one of the best examples I think is Ryan Trahan. Like, he- MmHe does these maybe once a year big adventures where he uploads a video- 50 states in 50 days this year, right? Yeah. Yeah. 50 states in 50 days. 45 00:06:15.332 --> 00:06:26.692 It is... And, like, there's a massive, like, charity drive behind it. He gets all other creators involved, and it becomes like a really big event. But that's not like his only thing, right? Mm-hmm. Is he has other... 46 00:06:26.752 --> 00:06:31.142 I guess there are o- other, like, formats of videos that he goes back to, you know- Yeah... 47 00:06:31.192 --> 00:06:45.712 trying out Airbnbs and trying out, uh, uh, like, uh, worst-rated restaurants and, and these other things he goes back to- Yeah... and then brings in the serialized thing once a year. And I think that's like a good move. 48 00:06:45.832 --> 00:06:54.752 I think relying, like, basing your whole brand on this one, this one piece of content can sometimes not work. 49 00:06:55.392 --> 00:07:07.692 The other thing of a serialized piece of content, right, that has a clear end in sight is it gives you an off-ramp. I think that's a problem as well, going back to the United Strand guy, is he has no clear off-ramp. 50 00:07:07.752 --> 00:07:17.452 He can't control whether or not Manchester United wins five games in a row. But Ryan Trahan, he's gonna do this thing for 50 days, and it's gonna be a lot of work. But then- Yeah... 51 00:07:17.492 --> 00:07:30.152 that ends, and he can go on to the next thing. And the benefits from that, brand deals, et cetera, stay with him, and he's probably brought in many new subscribers- Mm-hmm... this kind of thing. So to me, that's... 52 00:07:30.172 --> 00:07:44.912 Like, if you are a creator setting up a concept like this, that's a huge bit of the value, is that you're not gonna do it forever. We do... I mean, this is a weekly podcast. We have not missed a week in a long time. 53 00:07:44.962 --> 00:07:52.632 [laughs] We, um... Before, Natalia, before you joined, sometimes we would skip a week, and I would just publish a, a written piece, and there wouldn't be an episode of the podcast. 54 00:07:53.182 --> 00:08:01.322 This year, ever since you've joined, we have not missed a week. Mm-hmm. This episode is coming out on December 30th. We don't stop. Um, but- [laughs]... 55 00:08:01.352 --> 00:08:12.042 the, the, the point is, you know, it's, it's a lot of work to do a thing every week. So to have an off-ramp, like, if this was a show in seasons, in many ways that would make all of our lives a lot easier- [laughs]... 56 00:08:12.072 --> 00:08:22.632 because there'd be, "Oh, here's the two-week break where it's a break between seasons. We can regroup. I'm not podcasting. Tommy, you're not editing. You can catch up on other things. 57 00:08:22.692 --> 00:08:31.812 You can get ahead on certain things," whatever. I think that's... I mean, Natalia, you wrote about that [smacks lips] creator mental health study a couple of weeks ago. 58 00:08:31.912 --> 00:08:44.542 And also in the monetization report we also released a couple of weeks ago- Mm... one of the big things was, was the idea of burnout, and that especially- Yeah... for creators making above $100,000 a year- Yeah... 59 00:08:44.572 --> 00:08:57.242 they listed burnout as one of their main problems. And so that's another thing with serialized content is it builds in these breaks. Absolutely. Yeah. And I- Or season, season serialized content, to be clear. Yeah. 60 00:08:57.392 --> 00:09:17.312 And even speaking of burnout too and, like, just the results of the monetization report in general, I think one of the things that surpri- or not really surprised me, but I, like, took note of in the separation of, like, the, the income disparity and also, like, how the challenges evolve, sort of like when you're going up that ladder. 61 00:09:17.932 --> 00:09:30.381 Um, and both creators making above six figures and ones making, like, five below 500 struggle with, like, captivating an audience and building that audience and, like, converting that into money. Mm-hmm. 62 00:09:30.792 --> 00:09:40.092 But then the ones that are making above six figures are struggling with burnout, and it's like, almost like the more experience compounds, the more it's like, "Okay," like, "this is actually really taxing on me. 63 00:09:40.252 --> 00:09:49.212 I'm not sure how to keep this sustainable." And so it feels like the main trend and theme, the more experience you have and the longer you've been in the game, is, like, okay, well, I know how to... 64 00:09:49.252 --> 00:10:05.212 I, I have the tools how to make this sustainable over time business-wise, but almost, like, mentally creating a system where it's like I need to be able to step aside from this or, like, maybe build a business that runs without me or, like, community that runs without me, that doesn't have my face or, like, can survive without me. 65 00:10:05.292 --> 00:10:10.112 Um, and, and putting those systems in place I feel like is a big gap that we're, that we're missing still. 66 00:10:10.652 --> 00:10:22.002 Natalia, when you started working on Creator Spotlight, you hadn't spent that much time writing about the creator economy, certainly not thinking about creators and what, what is a creator and all that in this way. 67 00:10:23.152 --> 00:10:31.382 What do you think is most different about the way you think about this industry and about creators as a category of worker? 68 00:10:31.572 --> 00:10:40.572 What do you think is most different how you think about that now compared to, say, a year ago, three or four months before you joined us here? Oh, yeah, I love this question. 69 00:10:40.732 --> 00:10:53.301 I think even just listening to how we even define creator, 'cause I came in with a, with a completely, like, I don't... I, I hadn't had, like, a defined or, or more, like, solid definition. 70 00:10:53.352 --> 00:10:59.672 I was like, "Oh, a creator is someone who is an artist or someone who is just sharing their work online." 71 00:10:59.752 --> 00:11:10.892 And I think even [laughs] like when I was interviewing for this job, that was one of the questions that I know you set up, Francis. [laughs] And so, um, I think now I'm like, okay, I think that that has expanded. 72 00:11:11.192 --> 00:11:25.112 I'm s- I still see, I still see creators as, as, as just creatives, but creatives who also have had to expand into the business side of things and be able to build a substantive ecosystem around their work. 73 00:11:25.212 --> 00:11:30.392 And, um, and I think that's, like... I, I, I feel like even just, like, talking to 74 00:11:31.552 --> 00:11:44.192 other people and then doing the Chicago piece and seeing how other people are, are defining themselves as creators and how they identify, um, I feel like just the definition has been the biggest thing of, of what I've learned so far and how I approach it. 75 00:11:44.252 --> 00:11:51.732 I'm just like, okay, like, if, if... Where do you, where do you fit on the spectrum? How do you relate to your work? How do you relate to your audience? Uh, what... Tell us more about the Chicago piece. 76 00:11:51.872 --> 00:12:01.192 This is, this is a really cool thing that you did this year, maybe the coolest thing we, we published. You, you interviewed a bunch of people working in and around the creator economy in Chicago. 77 00:12:01.232 --> 00:12:07.142 Then a couple weeks later, maybe, I think it was two weeks after it came out, you went to Chicago for a small conference and talked- I did... to some more people. 78 00:12:07.832 --> 00:12:11.572 What did you learn about the creator economy more broadly? 79 00:12:11.632 --> 00:12:23.812 Not, I mean, what, uh, what was happening in Chicago, but what we can also extrapolate toThe industry or two, two representations of this industry in any given city, right? Yeah. Yeah. 80 00:12:23.872 --> 00:12:28.832 No, Chicago was a great, was a great, um, it's a great point to, like, explore. 81 00:12:28.972 --> 00:12:35.912 I also feel there's a lot of interesting models that are rising there that we should be m- paying attention to that I think will become more popular next year. 82 00:12:36.472 --> 00:12:48.012 Um, and as I feel like a, like a thread that I've fallen into working in this job has been, like, reporting on communities. I think communities are a big thing, and they'll become a bigger thing as we go on. 83 00:12:48.192 --> 00:13:04.012 I think that, um, Francis, you say this a lot, that, like, work is a social endeavor, and I-- it's one of my favorite things that you say 'cause it's, I also think creating is a social endeavor, and I think that being a creator, and it can be very isolating if we're talking about, like, burnout and things like that, and just, like, the mental substance around the work. 84 00:13:04.042 --> 00:13:21.992 And I feel like a lot of creators in Chicago, one of the main points or the main pain points that I kept hearing in conversation with them was, like, we live in such an artistic-- we have such an artistic and scenic backdrop, um, both, like, just culturally rich too, and we feel so disconnected from each other. 85 00:13:22.232 --> 00:13:29.552 Like, there is not a, a thread bringing us together, and I feel like there's so many new community models that are rising. 86 00:13:29.572 --> 00:13:43.162 And I feel like in general, some themes that I kept noticing for what made for, like, the richest active communities were, like, participants who were just committed to, like, preserving the artistic or, like, economic actualization of the group. 87 00:13:43.712 --> 00:13:51.092 There was, like, um, in the, in the, an ideal sense, like, funding and equity, and then there's a value exchange system that ties them all together. 88 00:13:51.132 --> 00:14:04.532 It's not like we're all just here to, like, you know, hang out, or we have, like, a common cause, or we're tied together by something, but there was, like, we are exchanging-- we, we all bring something to contribute to this group that the other person directly benefits from. 89 00:14:04.612 --> 00:14:09.492 And I think from just general communities that we've covered throughout this year, that's also been a theme. 90 00:14:09.592 --> 00:14:15.932 Um, but, like, just yeah, the groups can't work in isolation, and I think that Chicago's communities are bringing and building something very beautiful. 91 00:14:16.572 --> 00:14:34.832 I also feel like in terms of funding and creator equity, there was-- We interviewed, um, an employee at Gigastar who is, like-- They're, like, a platform that treats creators as almost like media startups, and I think we've talked about that in, in a few episodes with other people. 92 00:14:35.312 --> 00:14:44.872 It allows them to sell a percentage of future ad revenue to fans, um, and it's a new way for them to build equity. 93 00:14:45.182 --> 00:14:53.852 So it's like the fans are able to invest in what they're doing directly, and there's almost a value exchange there with how they're able to, like, kind of establish themselves. 94 00:14:53.892 --> 00:15:06.132 And I, I, I don't think that we've seen a lot of models like that, but I think that's something that will continue growing, where it's like, okay, like, if we're seeing creators as corporations or startups or whatever, how do we build more infrastructure to support that? 95 00:15:06.152 --> 00:15:13.432 And I, and I think Gigastar is doing that directly, and I feel like I see that as more of an innovative way to go about relating to creators and the economy in general. 96 00:15:14.012 --> 00:15:25.212 I like that, that work is a social endeavor line has stuck with you. I don't- [laughs] I remember the last time I said it, but I do, I do say it often. I do believe that. Um, this is my prediction for next year. 97 00:15:25.552 --> 00:15:30.472 I had to write one for, for Neiman Lab. I had to. I was invited to. It was, it was great. 98 00:15:30.612 --> 00:15:40.032 Um, and what I wrote was that the future of the creator economy is in person, which was a riff on a Curtis Spotlight piece I wrote about a month before. 99 00:15:40.052 --> 00:15:51.532 But I think that's been a major theme among all the people we've spoken to this year, and you were just talking about that with the Chicago base, these people coming together and trying to build these communities in person because they crave that, that value. 100 00:15:51.572 --> 00:16:02.072 They crave those social connections. They crave what they can gain from being aligned with people who have complementary skills they might not have themselves, right? And so whether it's 101 00:16:03.052 --> 00:16:05.812 a, a meetup that's, that's once a month, right? 102 00:16:05.912 --> 00:16:15.742 Whether it's parties that are bringing like-minded people together, whether it's a workshop, whether it's a conference, I think that this is, like, a business line that more creators are developing. 103 00:16:16.712 --> 00:16:24.832 In media, it's not new, right? There's media companies have thrown conferences for many years, but it wasn't really a theme. 104 00:16:25.112 --> 00:16:33.831 Tom, maybe correct me if, if I'm wrong here, but in the first year we were doing this, I don't really remember us speaking to many creators who were building these communities that had in-person components. 105 00:16:33.932 --> 00:16:45.342 There were some, but it really multiplied this last year, which told me that it's going to continue multiplying in the next year. Yeah. I, I think you're right. I don't think we spoke to many people that are, 106 00:16:46.352 --> 00:17:00.572 that were building communities just in general, online or in person, uh, as much as we did this year. And then, yeah, the in-person aspect has come in a lot in the past year, and it's something that I'm excited about. 107 00:17:00.672 --> 00:17:07.512 I've never been someone that's been like-- I've never personally, like, really joined an online community. 108 00:17:07.572 --> 00:17:22.192 Like, I've always been, uh, like I said earlier, like, aware of the creator economy, enjoyed creators, participated, but I never really found, like, the need or, like, a, a place that I wanted to join. 109 00:17:22.232 --> 00:17:35.052 Like, I, I've, I've joined the odd Discord channel, but I never really interacted. I kind of just lurked and got bored and, and, and that was, that was kind of it. Um, so it's interesting, like, this year 110 00:17:36.472 --> 00:17:48.852 listening to the amount of people that have found value in a community or have had people find value in their community. Um, but I think the in-person 111 00:17:50.532 --> 00:18:05.092 community is maybe something that I think a lot of people will find value in that didn't find any value in, like, the sort of rise in online communities- Yeah... in the past couple years. Uh, the trouble is 112 00:18:06.252 --> 00:18:15.112 living somewhere that has access to- Yes... like in-person communities, right? It's like, yeah, if you're in New York, amazing. 113 00:18:15.552 --> 00:18:29.108 Um, you know, here, like-London, I'm sure there'll be some, not as many as New York, but there will be like a London circuit of communities. Once you get outside of like the main handful of cities in the world, 114 00:18:30.208 --> 00:18:40.038 it's a struggle, um, to find those like in-person communities. In some ways though then there's the opportunity to build them, right? Like, yes, if you're in- Mm... 115 00:18:40.268 --> 00:18:51.088 a m- small town there's only gonna be so many people interested in this, doing this thing with you. But conversely, if you can find even one or two people, then- That's true... 116 00:18:51.108 --> 00:19:04.688 even that small group can be really powerful, right? Yeah. 'Cause you just have that in-person collaboration, which is oftentimes so much more powerful than, you know, talking to somebody on the other side of the world. 117 00:19:05.008 --> 00:19:11.408 That's true, yeah. Even as we talk today too. [laughs] I remember... [laughs] Yeah, yeah. The three of us are all in different cities right now. Literally. [laughs] Yeah. Well, I remember like, um, 118 00:19:12.308 --> 00:19:25.518 uh, Kaylin Grace Apple has like a very good- Mm-hmm... uh, successful community, and she spoke in the episode about when they pivoted to having member-led sessions. Mm. Yeah. 119 00:19:25.908 --> 00:19:40.908 And the whole idea is that, you know, she can only be there for s- s- so much of her time. And I guess the in-person aspect of that could be that if you're, if you have access to this worldwide community, then 120 00:19:42.248 --> 00:19:53.528 there could be sort of like member-led sessions that pop up in smaller towns and cities across the globe rather than in the big, you know, metropolitan areas. The big apple. 121 00:19:53.628 --> 00:20:04.468 I think that also like matches, like that also represents the health of a community too, where it's like you build something so successful and sustainable that like your members are wanting to be so actively a part of leading different sections. 122 00:20:04.508 --> 00:20:10.968 'Cause it's like it's, it's grown so large it's not sustainable for one person to be like the f- full face leading- Mm... and central- Yeah... central connector. 123 00:20:10.988 --> 00:20:19.508 But then there's like other connectors that come in and they're like, "We're gonna start mini communities out of this one central, you know, group," so. Mm. Like, that marks the health of a community for real. 124 00:20:20.368 --> 00:20:36.618 Tom, you said you had a few predictions for us. I would love to hear about these. Yes, I do. Um, this might be a bold one. One of my predictions for 2026 is that we're going to see less podcasts. Mm. 125 00:20:36.758 --> 00:20:46.448 I think- Interesting. I think- Are you trying to lose your job? [laughs] As we record a podcast. [laughs] Yeah. You might think as a s- yeah, someone who 126 00:20:47.408 --> 00:21:02.728 edits podcasts, uh, I'd like to see more, but I actually think this might be a good thing. I think, I think we're reaching the point of like maybe the peak of what I would call like creator centric podcasts. Mm-hmm. 127 00:21:03.068 --> 00:21:13.448 You know? Mm. There's been this pipeline of small creator grows into a bigger creator and then starts a podcast. And 128 00:21:15.428 --> 00:21:28.588 th- there's often not like a clear like direction behind the podcast, other than it's this personality- Person... that you like talking for longer than- Yeah... you typically hear them. And- No original information. 129 00:21:29.268 --> 00:21:41.808 Yeah. [laughs] And, and, and maybe when there was less podcasts to listen to and less like unique specific niche podcasts, you would just maybe be, "Oh, yeah, I like that." 130 00:21:41.868 --> 00:21:51.768 But now we've got to the point where everyone knows what a podcast is, everyone has their f- like favorite podcasts. There's a lot more competition out there, and you kind of need to have like a, 131 00:21:53.048 --> 00:21:57.558 you need to have like an objective with your podcast almost, I feel. And- Mm-hmm... 132 00:21:57.568 --> 00:22:07.408 we've started to see this like at the back end of this year, I think it was about a month ago that Shelby Church said that she was ending her podcast. Uh, Rhett and Link- Mm... 133 00:22:07.418 --> 00:22:16.838 have said that they are indefinitely stepping away from their podcast, Ear Biscuits. Um, they still have other- I didn't even know they had one. 134 00:22:16.868 --> 00:22:29.638 Well, that's the thing is that they still have other projects, and they said in their announcement like they're, um, like they just wanna spend that time and energy on what they consider like the main product. Mm-hmm. 135 00:22:29.708 --> 00:22:41.588 Like the podcasts are not the, the main product for them. And I think there's a few reasons for it. I think, I, I think podcasts are, if not the, one of the hardest things to grow online. 136 00:22:42.268 --> 00:22:53.328 Uh, I think if, if you're looking to grow like a presence online and you've got, y- you know, you've got a few options, you, you can do short-form video, you can write newsletters, you can d- whatever, whatever. 137 00:22:53.388 --> 00:23:04.568 I think growing a podcast is one of the hardest. And I think it's a good, I think that's a good thing. I think like the value of a listener is so high that there needs to be this higher 138 00:23:05.908 --> 00:23:18.948 barrier to entry, or like it needs to be hard to acquire a listener. Um, that was something that came up in the monetization report is that I think podcasters had earned the most money like per 139 00:23:20.248 --> 00:23:31.168 viewer, follower, subscriber than anyone else, and that's because they're so valuable. Like you're- If you can pull it off. If you can pull it off. Yeah. And it's- I think that's a fair prediction... 140 00:23:31.208 --> 00:23:38.288 it's very hard to pull it off. So I think we're gonna see this like fall of podcasters where there's not really that much benefit to them. 141 00:23:38.328 --> 00:23:45.948 They, they think it's a great idea to start a podcast because they've got this big following, they hear you can make a m- a lot of money from podcasts. But 142 00:23:47.228 --> 00:23:57.028 after maybe 50 episodes, you find that it's actually quite a lot of time and effort, and you're not getting a huge benefit from it. 143 00:23:57.088 --> 00:24:10.268 Like, you might get some money coming in from the, from the partnerships, but it probably doesn't equal the amount that you would earn if you focused on whatever your main product is. But I think we might see, 144 00:24:11.908 --> 00:24:28.900 or maybe what replaces that is like this rise of like B2C podcasts, which-I guess, uh, we, we kind of see it already where podcasts become acquired by, like, a larger media company. 145 00:24:28.970 --> 00:24:36.000 You know, like HubSpot owns a ton of podcasts where there's, like, a- Well, isn't this what Curious Fox is? Yeah, a- and it's, and it is what this is, right? 146 00:24:36.080 --> 00:24:50.000 It's, you know, funded by Beehive, funded by a media company, a, a tech company with a media arm. That, that is a growing thing that we see. But I think we'll start to see maybe a little bit more of, like, a, 147 00:24:51.480 --> 00:24:57.740 like, a more, like, niching down where, like, you can see, like, a, I don't know, some 148 00:24:58.700 --> 00:25:17.620 General Motors ha- having, like, a media arm, and they have, like, six car-related podcasts under them, and that's clearly maybe, like, a very small listener base that, like, if that, if those creators on that podcast went to launch that podcast on their own, they probably would give up. 149 00:25:17.680 --> 00:25:23.400 It probably wouldn't go very far, or it wouldn't be that profitable. But if it's- Well, this, this, this folds together a few things that... 150 00:25:23.440 --> 00:25:33.300 a few themes that we've been talking about today, which is, one, how brands will work with creators better. Two, this idea of a limited series, right? Mm. I can see... 151 00:25:33.340 --> 00:25:40.180 I, I forget if you said Ford or GM or whatever, but let's say it's, it's Ford, and they want to do a podcast. 152 00:25:40.320 --> 00:25:51.930 They're gonna work with somebody who is a popular car-related creator on, on YouTube maybe, and they're going to produce a maybe six-episode limited series. 153 00:25:51.940 --> 00:26:04.850 And then if that one does well, they'll produce another one, and that's how these things come together, where a creator and a brand are really well-aligned, but also making a measured bet that's not just, "We're gonna do this forever," it's, "We're gonna try this thing. 154 00:26:05.040 --> 00:26:13.320 Here's this unit. We're both bought in fully for these six episodes, and then we'll see if it makes sense to do it again." Yeah. I think it's, like, a realization of 155 00:26:14.500 --> 00:26:29.729 the fact that to monetize a podcast purely few- through ad reads and, uh, AdSense, you need hundreds of thousands of listeners, or, like, you know, tens of thousands at the minimum to make, like, uh, your money back. 156 00:26:30.200 --> 00:26:43.600 So the only way to make it sustainable is if it is feeding, if it's part of the flywheel or, like, it's the top of the funnel for something else. You need to have, like, a, an ecosystem that is a part of. 157 00:26:43.700 --> 00:26:54.490 Having a podcast just on its own doesn't really work. And I think if you're a creator that wants to just have a podcast, that's great, but it can't... You can't expect that to be the moneymaker. 158 00:26:54.640 --> 00:27:06.000 That can't be your main product, in the same way that you talk quite often about having a newsletter on its own is often not, like, a great business strategy. I think Matt Mogk talks about that- Yeah... 159 00:27:06.009 --> 00:27:12.560 where he's saying, like, just having a newsletter is not, is not the product. That is just part of the ecosystem of products. 160 00:27:12.600 --> 00:27:25.140 You need to be funneling those people somewhere else, selling another product, building a community. And if your podcast does that, great, but if it doesn't, you're gonna find that it's, it's just a hobby. Mm-hmm. 161 00:27:25.150 --> 00:27:37.640 And I think we're gonna see a lot less c- podcasts for the sake of it maybe. Natalia, do you have any predictions? Any, any processed themes from the year for next year? Processed themes. 162 00:27:37.800 --> 00:27:49.760 I feel like going off of what you said earlier, Francis, in regards to how brands can work better with creators, something that stuck with me about this year was when we had Jade Powell on the podcast icon. 163 00:27:50.080 --> 00:28:02.420 But I, we loved how she talked about the fractional, um, the fra- like the fractional marketing model, and it was essentially, like, knowing and a brand knowing, like, "We need someone to come in for a limited period of time." 164 00:28:02.440 --> 00:28:07.430 And also creators wanna be, maybe want to be here for a limited period of time 'cause they have other projects they wanna pursue. 165 00:28:07.480 --> 00:28:19.550 So it's like we have this perfect, like, perfect project or perfect whatever, where this creator who's, like, really well-aligned can come in and almost, like, consult us through or we can work together in whatever way, you know, is conceptualized. 166 00:28:19.990 --> 00:28:29.690 And they get to come in and work, like, you know, an executive role in a company because they have the expertise to do so. And it's ver... And it, it kind of like... 167 00:28:29.700 --> 00:28:36.580 It's like a perfect value exchange where it's like the creator gets to come in for a limited time, work on a project that's really aligned. The brand gets benefit. 168 00:28:36.680 --> 00:28:43.079 I feel like recognizing almost that, like, brands are not trying to own creators. 169 00:28:43.100 --> 00:28:52.279 Creators are not trying to have permanence, but they're trying to, like, in the time that we're crossing each other, like, we're exchanging something, and it's, like, a project that's aligned with what both of our goals are. 170 00:28:53.140 --> 00:29:04.839 I am excited to see more of that next year and how that keeps, like, translating and compounding over time. That's a good one. Um- Yeah, that was a good episode. Still our most popular episode, Jade. The Jade Powell. 171 00:29:05.140 --> 00:29:20.240 Yeah. You know, yeah, that, that one was really good. I... Our... A, a funny theme this year, speaking of most popular episodes, two of our most popular episodes were with YouTube-focused sewing creators, right? 172 00:29:20.420 --> 00:29:33.320 [laughs] Yeah. That's Sydney Graham and Nastya Morin, DIY Hula. Mm-hmm. Both of them, both of those podcasts did really well in the first few days, which is where we always track, and then also really well long after. 173 00:29:33.380 --> 00:29:42.970 And to me, [laughs] the theme there, besides these, both of these people being women who create sewing-related content for YouTube and Instagram primarily, 174 00:29:44.100 --> 00:29:49.360 like, that tells me that they both have really well-engaged audiences, and the audience has a really close relationship with them. 175 00:29:49.790 --> 00:30:01.160 And I don't know if that's tied to the sewing aspect, to the little bits of their lifestyle that they, that they share throughout their content. But it was, it was not necessarily... 176 00:30:01.200 --> 00:30:08.780 It was a pattern I wondered that if it would, if it would repeat when we agreed to have Nastya on. But I, I, you know, I thought, "Oh, that Sydney one did really well. 177 00:30:08.860 --> 00:30:18.580 I wonder if this one will, will do really well, too." And so I, I think there's something there of the audience that they've built for this, going back to this expert influence, right? 178 00:30:19.480 --> 00:30:31.908 That kind of expert influence where this is, these are artisans whose craft is really on display, and the, the trust is really high.That maybe builds a really strong parasocial relationship. 179 00:30:33.068 --> 00:30:41.728 I think that also, like, I'm kind of adjacently involved in a lot of, like, fiber sewing communities and, like, just cozier hobbies in general. 180 00:30:42.248 --> 00:31:01.428 Like, people are super engaged 'cause it's just, like, yeah, like, it's, it's great to find a creator that's into this super niche thing that you're into, so the audiences are much more engaged than someone who's doing something more generalized or, like, you have to have, like, a certain maybe, like, level of understanding or, like, a level of interest to even be there in the first place. 181 00:31:01.488 --> 00:31:13.388 So I feel like it makes sense that almost, like, these two people came on the pod and their audiences were, like, so excited because it's like once you become invested in the craft, you're invested in the creator, and then you're kind of invested in everything they're doing and everything they're a part of. 182 00:31:13.468 --> 00:31:23.188 [laughs] And I feel like it kinda goes from there. Like, I follow, um, Cozy Games on Instagram, and we kind of g- we kind of... we've got to have her for, like, one of the articles, and I... 183 00:31:23.248 --> 00:31:31.128 If she's on a podcast, I will be listening to it. Mm. Or if she's, like, I don't know, featured in an article or she recommends a game, like, I am buying the game. 184 00:31:31.268 --> 00:31:38.428 So it's like because of that's, like, a main interest of mine, I feel like it's the same with any other audience members for those people that we feature on, and it's gonna... 185 00:31:38.468 --> 00:31:55.948 it makes sense that those were, like, our most popular ones. Mm. Yeah. I feel like also the viewing habits of a long-form YouTube viewer is obviously similar to the viewing habits of a long-form podcast viewer. 186 00:31:56.068 --> 00:32:10.228 Like, these people that sit and watch Nastia or Sydney, uh, sew for 25, 30 minutes, like, their long videos are the type of people that will choose that video- Mm... 187 00:32:10.248 --> 00:32:13.668 put it on the TV, and sit and watch that for 20, 25 minutes. 188 00:32:13.748 --> 00:32:24.228 So if they see a podcast that's 50 minutes long, they're not turned off by that, and they're not gonna click and maybe get bored after two and a half minutes and move on to the next thing. 189 00:32:24.328 --> 00:32:26.248 Um, I'm sure, like, I don't know, 190 00:32:27.448 --> 00:32:48.248 uh, can't think of an example, but uh, but I'm sure if we found maybe, like, a someone who's purely, like, TikTok short form quick content, their, like, uh, main audience is, like, young kids, like, we're probably not gonna get, gonna get as great retention because those people that watch the, the people that watch that content maybe aren't as 191 00:32:49.208 --> 00:32:56.168 likely to stick around for an hour-long podcast. So, uh, I'm pretty sure, I don't have it here, but when I looked through the analytics for 192 00:32:57.288 --> 00:33:05.248 both of those episodes, those episodes had, like, the highest watch time on TV compared to- Mm... any of the other episodes. That's right. 193 00:33:05.277 --> 00:33:16.828 And that's, that, that's a metric I always like to look at is, like, how many people are watching on TV because I think that's a good indication of, like- Really engaged listeners... c- commitment to watch. Yeah. 194 00:33:17.128 --> 00:33:26.408 And I know y- and, and YouTube knows that as well. If I open up YouTube on my phone and YouTube on a TV, it serves me different videos on the home screen. Like, it knows- Mm-hmm... 195 00:33:26.418 --> 00:33:36.898 these are the type of videos you're gonna watch now, and it'll be, like, a 30-minute documentary. But then if I open it up on my phone, it's often something that I can passively watch- Mm... 196 00:33:36.908 --> 00:33:42.258 because it knows that I'm sitting on the sofa or I'm cooking dinner. So I think 197 00:33:43.408 --> 00:33:51.988 the type of people that we're picking up from audiences like Nastia and, uh, and Sydney are the type of people that would stick around for longer. Yeah. 198 00:33:52.248 --> 00:34:01.228 Speaking of sticking around for longer, listener, if you've stuck with us all the way to the end of this episode, all the way through this year, whether this is- All the way to 2025... 199 00:34:01.268 --> 00:34:10.848 all the way through to 2025, whether this is the first episode you've listened to or the 52nd, however many we've put out this year, thank you. It means a lot. We put a lot of work into this. 200 00:34:10.968 --> 00:34:23.848 This is the full team here, plus Laura, our designer, who- Hi, guys... works with us on the newsletter. Um, it means a lot. Thank you for listening. I hope you've had a great 2025, and I hope you have an even better 201 00:34:24.768 --> 00:34:26.588 2026. We'll see you next week. 202 00:34:37.108 --> 00:34:46.907 [outro music]