WEBVTT 1 00:00:00.160 --> 00:00:02.360 Welcome back to the Creator Spotlight podcast. 2 00:00:02.620 --> 00:00:13.440 My guest today is Kate Lindsay, who is known for writing about internet culture in her newsletter Embedded and all sorts of publications like The New York Times, The Atlantic, and GQ. 3 00:00:13.980 --> 00:00:23.080 Ah, some recent topics she's written about are online username markets, moms FaceTuning their children unwillingly, and remote work productivity monitoring. 4 00:00:23.560 --> 00:00:34.860 Uh, besides writing about the internet, she also sometimes makes ceramics about it. Um, she's currently selling handmade mugs painted in the patterns of New York Times, ah, games Wordle and Connection Grids. 5 00:00:35.180 --> 00:00:46.220 Um, that's a abbreviated intro of who you are. Uh, do you have anything to add? No, other than I hope by Christmas I'm gonna also do just traditional crossword mugs as well. Oh, okay. 6 00:00:46.260 --> 00:00:55.840 Not yet, but- That's a lot more work, though, I feel like. Yeah, I know. I know. That's down the line. [laughs] Yeah. Um, okay, so I guess we'll start with Embedded. Yeah. Get into plenty of other things. Um, it's... 7 00:00:55.880 --> 00:01:05.560 So it's a regular newsletter. I think it's like- Yeah... usually three days a week, sometimes four, sometimes two. Yeah. Uh, you've got Sundays are, like, link roundups. Mm-hmm. You know, classic newsletter form. 8 00:01:06.040 --> 00:01:15.810 Mondays and Wednesdays might be some of your essays, and then Fridays are often, uh, this, like, written interview series called My Internet. Yeah. Um, am I missing anything? Like, how else- No. 9 00:01:16.100 --> 00:01:17.080 What would you describe Embedded as? No. Yeah. 10 00:01:17.160 --> 00:01:29.360 I would say the, the aim is always three times a week, an essay on Monday, uh, an interview on Wednesday, and a My Internet survey on Friday, and the My Internet survey is a little bit... 11 00:01:29.370 --> 00:01:36.570 'Cause an interview is normally about something specific that a person or creator is doing, whereas My Internet is we just find cool people and ask them- Templatized... 12 00:01:36.660 --> 00:01:45.560 yeah, how they, they fill out a survey about how they spend their time online, which is always fun. Okay, cool. So No Filter was the editorial arm of Influencer.co, which I understand- Yeah... 13 00:01:45.570 --> 00:01:57.250 is like a two-way influencer marketplace- Yeah. Mm-hmm... um, like, slash kind of social media network. Uh- Yeah... and in May 2020 they hired Nick Catucci to make an editorial outlet for them- Yeah... 14 00:01:57.260 --> 00:02:04.970 which was No Filter. Uh, he hires you two months later- Mm-hmm... to be kind of the sole writer. You write a s- you know, presumably hundreds of articles for the website- [laughs]... 15 00:02:05.000 --> 00:02:17.560 and then one year later, out of nowhere, it shuts down. Embedded becomes a, you know, out of the ashes rises as a Substack, whatever. Yeah. Um, and then Nick remains editor- Yeah... and you remain writer. 16 00:02:17.760 --> 00:02:24.640 So that's, like... I don't know. Do you wanna add any color to that? No, I'm so shocked at how thorough the research is, down to the month. 17 00:02:24.780 --> 00:02:39.049 Yeah, I mean, I had been at Refinery29 for, like, combining full-time and freelance, four years before that, and while I was there, I, I always grew up watching YouTubers specifically, and so my scope was really small in the beginning- Hmm... 18 00:02:39.080 --> 00:02:44.140 which was just, like, I think... I was on the entertainment team and I remember just being like, "We should be writing about these YouTubers." Hmm. 19 00:02:44.340 --> 00:02:56.850 But this was pre-pandemic and so it, it was just an uphill battle to get it published. Hmm. But it re- the... It was kind of crazy, like, the moment the pandemic hit and nothing was filming, like, things were... 20 00:02:56.880 --> 00:03:13.320 Some things were still coming out, but it was like suddenly, suddenly my skillset was valuable because everyone was, uh, was making content online or turning to content creators, and so it kinda was a coincidence that, like, that also coincided with me going to No Filter because I'd been at Refinery for a long time. 21 00:03:13.420 --> 00:03:24.540 I basically felt like I didn't know what was next there, and I knew that if I... Like, it was one of those things where I could easily just stay there until I got laid off, um- [laughs] Yeah... which, uh, which I... 22 00:03:24.600 --> 00:03:33.320 It would have happened. Um- As it does. Yeah, but I was like, "You know what? If I don't... I, I'm never gonna leave if I don't leave now for this," because it was, like, a bit of a risk. 23 00:03:33.380 --> 00:03:44.720 It was a, you know, like, totally brand new. Um, but I figured if I could just, one, get, get out, make some progress, um, and two, just see what it's like working somewhere where 24 00:03:45.620 --> 00:03:54.400 it's just internet culture coverage and we can, uh, shape it and grow it. Um, I, like, I learned just a lot about starting something- Mm-hmm... 25 00:03:55.269 --> 00:04:01.900 and, and wrangling interviews when you don't really have anything to point to. Um, so it was definitely really good, and we grew quite a bit. 26 00:04:01.980 --> 00:04:12.560 But yeah, just, uh, it was just one of those things, like, ev- the economic times were really bad and, um, you know, when you're looking to cut something, it is often- Yeah... editorial that goes first, and so... 27 00:04:12.600 --> 00:04:22.700 But luckily we were able to just take it and transition it into... We were able to use the old email list because we did- Oh, okay. Yeah. That's what I meant... send out highlights as a newsletter. 28 00:04:22.760 --> 00:04:32.380 We basically were able to use that list to... We couldn't take the emails, but we could email them and go, "Hey, we're moving to this." Ask to opt in. Yeah. Um- How, how big was it, the email list? Do you mind? 29 00:04:32.400 --> 00:04:42.520 The email list was pretty big. It was, like, I think 30,000. Nice. We got maybe 500 people who opted in, which isn't bad. It's not starting from scratch. Um- In terms of, like, a click rate, I mean, that's pretty good. 30 00:04:42.880 --> 00:04:52.480 Yeah. Yeah, yeah. So we got 500 people, uh, ish, and then, you know, some people just from the announcement. But really it's just sort of grown, I would say, by, like... 31 00:04:52.630 --> 00:05:01.190 Uh, but it, it grows steadily at about 10K per year for subscribers, and so we're at... I was looking at all this stuff 'cause I'm actually very hands-off with the numbers for my own, like- I, I read that, yeah... 32 00:05:01.190 --> 00:05:12.720 emotions. But, um, but I was looking just so I could come prepared. And so yeah, we're, we're close to hitting 35, uh, K right now- Nice... which is crazy and, like, still not... 33 00:05:12.780 --> 00:05:24.670 It's still something that, that for mo- the most part I just send off into a void, and I'll get, like, some feedback, but really, like, it's been very weird, especially as it was something that started in the pandemic and now we're all sort of out and about again- Mm-hmm... 34 00:05:24.690 --> 00:05:33.050 to, like, run in and see living, breathing pe- people who are like, "Oh, I read your newsletter." And it's so... That's still weird to square. But, um- Yeah... but yeah. No- I, I love it. Yeah. 35 00:05:33.780 --> 00:05:44.250 When you m- when you made the transition- Mm-hmm... and started Embedded, um, I'm curious how, like, the editorial mission or voice changed, or if it did at all. Like, and I'm, obviously- Yeah... I'm sure now it has. 36 00:05:44.250 --> 00:05:51.570 Mm-hmm. So I guess, like, how was it different, if at all, maybe those first few months to a year, and then- Yeah... from that, how has it changed to now? 37 00:05:52.060 --> 00:06:05.190 Well, yeah, so when it started, it was very, it was more like the original website, which was creator interviews. Um, and we also were doing it because we had a very generous severance- Hmm. Nice... 38 00:06:05.770 --> 00:06:13.572 that we were able to, like, for three months we were like, "Okay, let's just-Pretend this is our job now. It's like seed funding. And the Se- yeah, that The Severance- Mm-hmm... 39 00:06:13.652 --> 00:06:20.992 is paying us and we'll t- so we, it was unmonetized. I think I was writing five days a week, like, just something really short every day. 40 00:06:21.442 --> 00:06:36.832 And so that was good in the sense, and this is what I'll always say when people ask is, like, now it's this like, it, I think it could be very easy if you are in charge of your own publishing if you don't have an idea, it's really tempting to be like, "Well, I just won't write something." 41 00:06:36.872 --> 00:06:40.222 And what I think was good about, especially 'cause Nick took it very seriously- Mm-hmm... 42 00:06:40.262 --> 00:06:47.222 and, like, the theme of all this is gonna be that Nick looks at the numbers, Nick is the one who- Well, 'cause he also, he has like, I don't know, like 20 years of experience on you or something. Yeah... yes. Yeah. 43 00:06:47.232 --> 00:06:55.132 So if I didn't, I think if I worry that if I ha- if I hadn't had him to be accountable to, I don't really know if it would've- Which is awesome... done as well. Yeah. No, it's really, it's really great. 44 00:06:55.172 --> 00:07:02.452 And so, like, yeah, so I just, and, and I think it's helpful to get yourself in a routine of, like, needing to come up with an idea. 45 00:07:02.672 --> 00:07:12.682 And, and not saying that they're bad ideas, but it just makes you, if you're just waiting for inspiration to strike, you know, maybe that's what, like, the idyllic writer life is like. But it's not one- Yeah... 46 00:07:12.712 --> 00:07:17.972 for a writer that needs to sort of- Not for the 21st century... make money. Yeah. [laughs] Yeah. And so, and so it's good. 47 00:07:18.092 --> 00:07:26.612 Also, you push yourself and I'm also someone who very much will just start with a big idea and then find what it is I'm, I really think or I'm trying to say as I'm writing, and then I go back and, like, reangle it. 48 00:07:26.712 --> 00:07:30.032 Um- Mm-hmm. That's like the point of writing, right? Yeah, yeah. [laughs] And so, so yeah. 49 00:07:30.102 --> 00:07:37.292 So the first year was very much that, but I think what, what we kind of also were, we wanted to lean into what was exciting about having a newsletter, which was we 50 00:07:38.412 --> 00:07:48.772 weren't writing a website where we were trying to convince strangers to click. Mm-hmm. We were ostensibly sending out writing to people who had already expressed a desire to read it. 51 00:07:48.792 --> 00:07:58.092 And so it meant that we were free from, you know, um, you know, writing an explainer on drama. And I really, that kind of allowed me to move a bit away. 52 00:07:58.152 --> 00:08:18.861 I mean, so much of my early internet career was explainers, and I do think those have a place, but I think one of the things I started to realize, and I've said this before, but is just when I was doing dedicated internet culture coverage at No Filter, I would talk to the people in my life about what I wrote about that day, and they would be like, "I've never heard of that person- Yeah... 53 00:08:18.892 --> 00:08:28.232 or that thing." And I would kind of start to be like, and I think it's easy to be like, well, there's, like, regular people on the extremely online, but the regular people still have phones, and they- Yeah... 54 00:08:28.312 --> 00:08:33.292 have Instagram, they have all this stuff. And so I was like, "Why- You were getting too inside baseball on, like, the moment of the day. Right. 55 00:08:33.412 --> 00:08:42.282 It was just like, well, how is this internet culture coverage if it, at a certain point it feels like I'm just writing for other internet culture journalists and not- Yeah... 56 00:08:42.292 --> 00:08:52.482 like, ac- 'cause everyone uses social media and the internet. I mean, not everyone, but I, I just was like, okay, I just, right now the internet culture writing is not indicative of the larger experience- Mm-hmm... 57 00:08:52.502 --> 00:09:02.422 of being on the internet. And I felt I was doing the importance of the internet a bit of a disservice by only writing about it through the lens of, like, this teen is mad at this teen. Yeah. 58 00:09:02.472 --> 00:09:10.912 And like I said, I was just like- Well, so you go from that, from like this teen is mad at this teen, to like what's the, like how do teens experience being online? Yeah. And like what are the implications of that? Yeah. 59 00:09:10.992 --> 00:09:14.972 Yeah. And you move from like, you know, like m- micro to macro kind of view. Yeah. 60 00:09:15.052 --> 00:09:25.552 What I, what I've said is that rather than, like, my beginning career was writing about what was happening, like, on the phone, and now I try to write about what's happening to the person who's holding the phone. Mm. 61 00:09:25.772 --> 00:09:32.452 That's good. Um, and I, I find that that can just, it, it, I've just found when I think about it through that way, like frankly, the piece just does better. 62 00:09:32.542 --> 00:09:41.301 And so then, and you know, it's like I'm not totally altruistic. I'm like, oh, like, this, you know, I w- I wanna, like, the best feeling is just writing something people feel seen in. Mm-hmm. 63 00:09:41.662 --> 00:09:49.612 And unless they're a certain subset of internet user, they're, you know, they're, they are not seen in the really specific micro trends that are happening. 64 00:09:49.732 --> 00:09:59.081 Um, they're, they're seen in the broader stuff, like why do dating apps suck now? Things like that. Yeah. That's more relevant. Yeah. I did wanna ask about, like- Mm-hmm... how you make money. So I know- Mm-hmm... 65 00:09:59.112 --> 00:10:09.422 you have this. Um, you- Yeah... you're, you're a freelance writer. You're like- Mm-hmm... constantly publishing articles. Um, and then also, like, I only saw this in your Instagram bio, you work for this company DM. 66 00:10:09.492 --> 00:10:15.282 Yeah. Yeah. Um, I didn't see it on your LinkedIn, but I s- it was in your Instagram- Oh my God... so I was like, is this a full-time job? I like never update my LinkedIn. Oh, well, yeah. No. 67 00:10:15.282 --> 00:10:19.852 I just never- 'Cause we can get into LinkedIn later... no, it's like- Um, but yeah, so what do you, what do you do for work? [laughs] Yeah. 68 00:10:19.912 --> 00:10:28.282 So I'd say, like, my main sources of income, and I'm like very open to being transparent about this stuff 'cause I, like, don't think there's any reason to- Mm-hmm... it just, like, only helps people. So- Okay... 69 00:10:28.371 --> 00:10:34.592 I would say my main come in, main income is Embedded. I would say, I, I have it so I get, it pays me on the 15th of each month. Um, 70 00:10:35.672 --> 00:10:42.872 I, it r- it really actually fluctuates more than you would think depending on who, you know, 'cause there's churn, but then there's like sometimes you get an influx. 71 00:10:42.912 --> 00:10:58.012 And so I can get anywhere from, I would say, like, the base lowest that I get now would be $1,500, um, dollars a month. Yeah. But then the most I've ever gotten, I remember, because this was insane, um, was 3,000. 72 00:10:58.272 --> 00:11:07.412 Oh, wow. And, and I don't super know what happened. It's just like who... And so I'll usually get something between that, um, a month, um, which is my rent. [laughs] Yeah. Essentially. 73 00:11:07.492 --> 00:11:14.572 And, um, and so then on the outside of that, yeah, I do have a contract with GQ where I write, like, a handful of stories a month. 74 00:11:15.052 --> 00:11:20.612 There's Embedded, there's GQ, and then there's DM, which are all contract roles, um, where I, like, log my hours. 75 00:11:20.632 --> 00:11:30.782 And so it's kind of like those are just what I will get no matter what because I'm, like, doing, I'm doing those things. Yeah. And then on, on top of that, so at DM I'm a newsletter editor- Yeah... there. 76 00:11:30.872 --> 00:11:37.152 And so what I am in charge, it's a part-time role. And, um, I basically just, they have two newsletters a week. 77 00:11:37.572 --> 00:11:47.752 I either write them or I help curate them or help edit people who write for them and just get it out and just kinda keep it flowing. Um, and also, like, I'm in meetings and come up with, like, ideas for the app. 78 00:11:47.792 --> 00:11:56.092 The app is, should've started with that, I should [laughs] have explained. Um, it's- It's like a search engine for- Yeah. It's like a, it's ca- they call it like Reddit for [laughs] Reddit for hot girls. Yeah. 79 00:11:56.112 --> 00:12:02.131 It's like a, it's like a sort of crowdsourced social search engine. It's fishwife Google. Yeah, yeah, yeah. 80 00:12:02.172 --> 00:12:12.441 [laughs] You can come and, like, Google your, or you know, DM your problems, like, either, like, if you wanna know, like, about is this symptom normal for PMS or something- Mm... 81 00:12:12.512 --> 00:12:23.424 or, um-Just like this really embarrassing thing happened to me, can you talk me off a ledge or whatever [laughs]... which is good. So yeah, so I do their newsletter. And then yeah, on top of that, I just, I do... 82 00:12:23.734 --> 00:12:31.824 I, I freelance. Yeah. And The Atlantic, obviously- Yeah... I still, like, write for- What is- so wait, w- with The Atlantic, you, your title there was Newsletter Engagement Editor. Yeah. What does that mean? 83 00:12:32.144 --> 00:12:45.024 That's a great question. I can tell you, like, the inside baseball out of it all was that, um, I had two competing job offers. Mm. And the original role at The Atlantic was, um, a more entry-level role. 84 00:12:45.664 --> 00:12:57.984 Uh, but then, uh, I was, I got this offer from BuzzFeed, which was more. Um, and so they wanted to match it, but in order to match it, it had to be, because of union stuff, it needed to be a different title. 85 00:12:58.084 --> 00:13:06.254 Um, and so that's, that's why [laughs] there's kind of this long story. So were you writing a newsletter there then, or, or were you- Um, sometimes I would write it. Okay. 86 00:13:06.284 --> 00:13:14.354 I, my role, it was really, the whole team was pretty nebulous, uh, because it was, like, this new initiative they started, and so we kind of all just did each other... Like, it was just- Mm... 87 00:13:14.364 --> 00:13:27.664 like, we all did, like, I was socialing stuff, I was literally just doing the production. Um, I was writing or, like, going through and, like, editing stuff, um, doing like- Mm... strategy stuff, ideas. 88 00:13:27.694 --> 00:13:35.704 So like, really, really anything. Um, and then also because I was in there, I was like, "Well, I really wanna try and write." And it took a lot of failed pitches. Mm. 89 00:13:35.714 --> 00:13:44.744 And actually, so the first thing I wrote for them was Millennial Pause. Ah. Mm-hmm. Um, which is so weird- Big one... because I was scrolling, scrolling the other day, and Ariana Grande was on Penn Badgley's podcast. 90 00:13:44.824 --> 00:13:53.414 And uh- [laughs]... and he started recording, and then he was like, "Oh, I feel like I just millennial paused." And then she went, "Oh, you didn't millennial pause." And I'm like, it is so- It's crazy... 91 00:13:53.414 --> 00:14:02.084 it's just, like, in the lexicon now. Mm-hmm. And that's so wild because I, I didn't coin the exact phrase, um, but- Yeah, you were writing as, like, a TikToker, then you wrote about that... yeah, a TikToker did. 92 00:14:02.144 --> 00:14:09.224 And I noticed it, like, like months before The Atlantic piece, and I wrote a little piece for Embedded that was just the millennial pause. 93 00:14:09.314 --> 00:14:13.114 And it was about- Which oh, wait, also d- for, you know, for anyone listening who doesn't know what it is, it's like when you start recording- Oh, yeah... 94 00:14:13.184 --> 00:14:22.153 and you're like, and you, like, situate before you start talking- Yeah... right? You, you're like, you're checking to make sure it's recording- [laughs]... before you start. And the, the real sin is not doing that. 95 00:14:22.224 --> 00:14:30.864 I would say, like, people of all ages do that, but, um, Gen Z knows to edit it out. Mm. And I think millennials leave it in, and they do, there are some egregious pauses [laughs] I've noticed. Yeah. 96 00:14:31.104 --> 00:14:41.504 Um, but um, basically Taylor Swift had done it, and then this, this TikToker stitched it and was like, "Wow, even Taylor isn't immune to the millennial pause before you speak," or whatever. Mm-hmm. 97 00:14:41.684 --> 00:14:43.904 And I was like, "Oh, that's so funny, like, the millennial pause." 98 00:14:44.104 --> 00:14:54.224 Um, and yeah, so I wrote it for Embedded, and then the executive editor, Adrian of, um, The Atlantic, saw it and was like, "You should do a piece on millennialism- Mm... for The Atlantic." 99 00:14:54.874 --> 00:15:04.444 And so the millennial pause was, like, the headline of it, and it was, like, the way in, but it was more broadly about the way that millennials are, have these sort of hallmarks of an earlier internet. Yeah. 100 00:15:04.484 --> 00:15:10.604 And I tr- like, [laughs] it like, I mean, that piece, like, changed my life. It's like- Yeah... kind of crazy 'cause it just... 101 00:15:10.824 --> 00:15:17.874 And, and I wouldn't, I remember being like, "I hope someone reads this because I hope my f- first Atlantic piece, you know, doesn't flop." And- It flew... 102 00:15:17.874 --> 00:15:31.264 and like, I've never had any, uh, I've never had anything like it. I've had some things now close. Um, but uh, just in terms of, like, that, I, and I know I'm r- gonna remember certain things over others. 103 00:15:31.444 --> 00:15:43.414 I didn't anticipate how upset it was gonna make some people. Mm. Um, and so I dealt with a lot of that. I dealt with a lot of, like, pretty nasty comments, and to this day, I, like, cannot figure out why. [laughs] Yeah. 104 00:15:43.414 --> 00:15:55.944 Um, I guess people felt it was, like, ageist. Uh, and I don't know. That's- But it was- I mean, millennials-... so I'm a millen- Yeah, me too... I, um- What, it's like 29 to, like, 44 now? I don't even know. Yeah, yeah. 105 00:15:56.124 --> 00:16:03.664 It's just, it was so weird. It's just like, no, like I think, 'cause I think it's interesting. I think these anthropological things are super interesting- Mm-hmm... about, like, how being on our phones. 106 00:16:03.744 --> 00:16:10.493 I also think it's something like what a great thing to hold onto that little bit of humanity of like- Yeah... I am separate from my phone. I am checking. 107 00:16:10.784 --> 00:16:16.684 Um, and p- they, I didn't coin this, they kind of, they being the nebulous audience- Yeah... on TikTok coined it afterwards. 108 00:16:16.713 --> 00:16:23.474 It's called the Gen Z shake, which is like, they are so embedded with their phones that, like, they are recording when they're in the middle of talking. Like, like- Oh, yeah... 109 00:16:23.474 --> 00:16:30.264 it's just coming in, and like, they're putting it down. But you're get- like, they couldn't wait. Um, they're not, like, getting- The media res. You could call it. Yeah. They're, yeah, exactly. 110 00:16:30.304 --> 00:16:40.104 And, and so I think that's just so interesting the way that even a little, little simple action if you're pausing or if you're just starting, like, marks how you grew up online. Um- Mm-hmm... 111 00:16:40.144 --> 00:16:49.004 so yeah, that piece, um, I'm kinda forgetting what question I'm answering. [laughs] Yeah. No, that's okay. Maybe we- Yeah... okay, we'll move on to another one. Uh, [laughs] I, I didn't wanna stop you. It was good stuff. 112 00:16:49.224 --> 00:16:58.404 Um- [laughs] I, so I'm curious though, like, given that you do both, editor, you're a newsletter editor and- Yeah... a newsletter writer, what's like the relationship between those things? I don't know. 113 00:16:58.444 --> 00:17:11.554 Like, what can you say about- I-... either role being on both sides of either role? Yeah. Edit- I mean, editing as all, I've only... I'm not, like, an experienced editor. I did some editing at- Mm-hmm... No Filter. 114 00:17:11.604 --> 00:17:18.644 That was technically my role, was news editor. Mm. And so I would... But um, I have definitely found I do have more comfort as a writer. 115 00:17:18.744 --> 00:17:26.384 And so the thing I try to do, especially with DM, a lot of the time we're getting, um, like, it's volunteer-based. Mm. Okay. 116 00:17:26.404 --> 00:17:32.634 And right now because they, right now they're still in the early stages of getting funding for that type of thing. So I'm- It's like volunteers of, like, people who, like, are- Yeah... 117 00:17:32.634 --> 00:17:40.064 power users of the app or something. Yeah, yeah. Mm. People who are on the app or, like, friends of mine or friends of Emma, the founder. Mm-hmm. Um, and so I'm very cognizant with that. 118 00:17:40.104 --> 00:17:47.064 So I, I would say this, that changes the editing a little bit 'cause I'm cognizant that this person is not getting paid. Yeah. And so- You can't be harsh... I am like, yeah. 119 00:17:47.184 --> 00:17:56.324 So I basically just try to go through and clean it up for them, and just be like, "Okay, here's either grammar stuff, and then like, here's where you can focus it a little bit," or maybe like, "I understand what you're saying here. 120 00:17:57.204 --> 00:18:02.424 Um, maybe can you simplify it?" Or like, "This is really good. Is there any way you could talk about this a little earlier?" But like- Mm... 121 00:18:02.484 --> 00:18:08.484 very light touch where it's just like I'm not gonna send it back and be like, "Take another stab at this." And they'll, they don't really, they don't need that. 122 00:18:08.544 --> 00:18:16.820 Like, the people who volunteer to do it are doing it because they're very passionate. Mm-hmm.Yeah, so I try to be... 123 00:18:17.590 --> 00:18:26.430 'Cause I think the edits I don't like, and Nick doesn't do this, but I've had editors in the past where it feels like it's just being edited to how they would've written it. Yeah. Yeah. 124 00:18:26.440 --> 00:18:34.620 And I just, so I really try not to- That was me in high school at my school newspaper. [laughs] Yeah. [laughs] I was the opinion editor. Just here's what I would say. Yeah. Yeah, and so, um, so yeah. 125 00:18:34.680 --> 00:18:37.880 So I just like really sh- I really try not to do that. And, um, 126 00:18:39.640 --> 00:18:51.049 and I try to just be really, like both for being the, the payment reason and for just how I like kind of operate, it's like I, I think positivity is a better motivator than being like- Mm-hmm... this is... 127 00:18:51.140 --> 00:19:01.280 So I try to be like, "Here's what's really great about this piece. Can we like push it more towards that?" Um, but I also feel very unqualified to give editing advice- Yeah... 'cause I'm so much more of a writer. 128 00:19:01.860 --> 00:19:12.880 Um- Huh... and so I just try to take from like what I've learned from being edited by Nick, like okay, what norm- normally gets taken out, cross it out. Yeah. Um- Mm-hmm... okay. A different question. 129 00:19:13.960 --> 00:19:23.300 This is kind of annoying, but I guess- No... what, what is a newsletter? What defines a newsletter? Like- Great... I have, I, I wanna hear yours, and then I have one. I think what it's... 130 00:19:23.330 --> 00:19:33.620 'Cause like especially on Substack and most of these other platforms- Mm-hmm... um, th- it exists as a webpage, um- Mm-hmm... as well. And so it is sometimes I'm wondering what I'm prioritizing. 131 00:19:33.660 --> 00:19:38.080 Like the thing is when it goes into inbox, I can't see it. Um, and so- Yeah... 132 00:19:38.100 --> 00:19:51.860 but I would just say the relat- I mean, the what's different to me is kinda what I said earlier in how I approach it, is that like I'm exclusively writing for people who have expressed an interest in hearing from me. 133 00:19:52.200 --> 00:19:58.000 Um- Mm-hmm... and, and so that just gives a kind of, it gives a kind of freedom, but it also makes me 134 00:19:59.280 --> 00:20:07.120 wanna treat them, not that I would be disrespectful, but you know, I like, I'm like very cognizant of like this is a k- a kind thing [laughs]- Yeah... that people are doing. 135 00:20:07.140 --> 00:20:14.970 It's, like you can have that more informal relationship. Yeah, and so- Have those colloquialisms. Yeah. And so and I'm also like so, like I don't, I don't ever wanna phone it in- Mm-hmm... 136 00:20:14.980 --> 00:20:18.670 for anything like that because- Especially when they've paid. They're paying you- Right, right... to write this for them. 137 00:20:18.680 --> 00:20:34.270 Like- Like I just feel so much more of a real relationship there where I just am like, no, like they, the, like I, I, I think it, that I say that only because a lot of my early career, like we mentioned, was during a time when like SEO but also like Facebook was really big- Mm-hmm... 138 00:20:34.300 --> 00:20:40.630 for news. And it was honestly- Were we ever so young? I know. And it's not like you were writing with blatant disregard- Uh-huh... 139 00:20:40.630 --> 00:20:51.460 for the reader, but you were writing something that would have a headline that you knew what you were doing with it. Um, and or you knew it was gonna make people mad- Yeah... and that's why you did it. 140 00:20:51.500 --> 00:20:58.300 And like that's not super... So sometimes I will be aware of, oh, this will probably make... Well, for Embedded, I really don't do that. 141 00:20:58.360 --> 00:21:04.840 Basically Embedded is like free from me trying to stoke a specific negative emotion from you to get you to read it. Yeah. And I don't think I will ever do that. 142 00:21:04.940 --> 00:21:15.620 Um, and I w- some of my freelance pieces I'm like, I will be writing something and be like, "They're gonna hate this." [laughs] Yeah. Um, but it's different whereas like Embedded I'm 143 00:21:16.580 --> 00:21:27.640 not, I'm not trying to make people angry. Like, I just want people to feel rel- relatable or to like read the thing that they hadn't, that they'd been thinking but hadn't been written yet. Yeah. 144 00:21:27.680 --> 00:21:33.640 That's, that's, that's a really good definition. I think it's... I was like trying to come up with a really umbrella one. Yeah. I think I read this last night. 145 00:21:34.120 --> 00:21:43.580 Um, I wrote it as an email written one to many, sent on a regular basis. Yeah. And that's like- Yeah, that's very, that's the bare bones... it's like the most like clinical, right? Yeah. [laughs] I don't know. 146 00:21:44.020 --> 00:21:53.520 Um, but I like you. I think the relationship there is- Mm-hmm... is much, is like more accurate. I don't know. It's a... I guess mine is trying to capture like... I don't know. 147 00:21:53.560 --> 00:21:58.190 I talk to people who are, it's more like business-driven than creator- creative-driven. Mm-hmm. 148 00:21:58.240 --> 00:22:04.870 Which is like this is like I'm constantly, you know, tweaking my theory of creator, which is like currently it's like, it's like a Venn diagram, right? Yeah. 149 00:22:04.880 --> 00:22:16.820 Where like if you're trying to create content online, and like, you know, with some goal of like audience building or monetizing, whatever, it's like you either are like creative driven and that's your skill, or you're like business-marketing driven and that's your skill. 150 00:22:16.960 --> 00:22:22.170 Yeah. And like at a certain point if you want it to like be anything, do anything, you have to like meet in the middle somewhere- Yeah... 151 00:22:22.180 --> 00:22:31.289 either by, you know, learning those skills or like working with somebody from the other side. And I've seen people who like are like clearly more the business-marketing type of person- Mm-hmm... 152 00:22:31.300 --> 00:22:36.939 but like are trying to be a creator, and it's like it's just not good. And maybe they've built- Yeah... an audience and it's not good. 153 00:22:37.440 --> 00:22:46.220 Um, and it's like, oh, they should just like find somebody who's like a good writer and like they should work together or something. Um, which, okay, and kinda moves into another question, another, uh, definition. 154 00:22:46.320 --> 00:22:51.580 What i- Yeah... how do you define the word creator? What is that term? 'Cause you've also written about this a lot. Yeah. I'm actually trying to... 155 00:22:52.940 --> 00:23:07.580 I think this is really nebulous, and this is something that I do think... That's what, I'm working on a piece right now- Mm-hmm... um, about basically AI rights after death for regular people. Um- Yeah... 156 00:23:07.660 --> 00:23:17.920 of like there are these services that can turn, you can turn your loved one into like a chatbot and keep- Yeah... talking with them after. And it's like, well, what if you don't want that? 157 00:23:18.000 --> 00:23:25.970 Like, kind of like a digital do not resuscitate type of thing. This is like the next stage of like the Tupac like hologram conversation. Yeah. Mm-hmm. And so, and it, but interesting, it's like 158 00:23:26.920 --> 00:23:35.860 it's for the loved ones who've left, been left behind. Like, I don't know. I, I also think a lot- Mm-hmm... about the ways that technology is used to avoid uncomfortable feelings. 159 00:23:36.060 --> 00:23:41.020 Like, it, that's what dating apps have done to dating- Yeah... where it's like, uh, you can, and then- De-risk social life. Yeah. 160 00:23:41.100 --> 00:23:47.780 And now it's like, okay, if you, I'm normalizing this, then we're like what is that doing to grieving? Mm-hmm. Like, I just don't think it's gonna be healthy. 161 00:23:47.840 --> 00:24:02.460 But basically to be like, I don't want this to happen, and you're a regular person, it's, there are no laws, um- Mm... to enforce that unless you are a personality or performer. And the definition of that is like 162 00:24:03.440 --> 00:24:11.750 someone who either, you know, makes their living from like singing, dancing, entertaining, da, da, da, or like- This is like a legal definition? Yes. Yeah. Yeah. 163 00:24:11.800 --> 00:24:20.134 And so I, so I, I forget the exact thing, but basically it's-A definition that I think is outdated because- Mm-hmm... 164 00:24:20.144 --> 00:24:31.384 like, what does, like, like, like you and I, I think it's safe to say, are, like, not traditional celebrities, but- Yeah... like, we are perso- we are, I would say, personalities in our own- We're creating this thing... 165 00:24:31.404 --> 00:24:42.114 communities. Yeah. These things for distribution online. Do we qualify to be like, "Hey, for that reason, can you not..." And like, I don't, ba- basi- I, and like, what counts as, like, enough followers- Mm... 166 00:24:42.144 --> 00:24:52.854 or whatever. So basically, I, the idea of what makes a creator, I don't know, because I also feel like, um, right now the kind of big creators are not really that zeitgeisty anymore. Yeah. 167 00:24:52.904 --> 00:24:57.564 And people are way more interested in their... Like, they like feeling like a creator is theirs. 168 00:24:57.624 --> 00:25:06.504 They like a kind of smaller creator, um, who maybe they see themself in their, their job or their body type or just their lifestyle. Yeah. 169 00:25:06.534 --> 00:25:13.314 And, and it's a much more personal, smaller relationship, and like, that's still a creator. Um, and so- Listen, so wait, let me- Yeah... let me share my definition quick. Yeah. 170 00:25:13.314 --> 00:25:19.614 I think, I, I, this is constantly changing, but right now- Mm-hmm... I think it's like at the most core, highest level, this is too umbrella, it's like- Mm... 171 00:25:19.904 --> 00:25:26.354 somebody who is a creator rather than a, a lurker, somebody who's contributing- Mm, mm, mm, mm... to the conversation online in some way, a participant in the internet. But- Yeah... 172 00:25:26.404 --> 00:25:36.464 I think more accurately, still maybe a little too umbrella, but more accurately, it's like somebody who is creating actively, but like with the intent of building, of reaching people beyond their family and friends, right? 173 00:25:36.504 --> 00:25:40.054 Yes, yeah. So you're not just like private Instagram photos for, you know, here's what I'm up to, I'm at the beach. Mm-hmm. 174 00:25:40.264 --> 00:25:48.064 It's like I'm trying to reach an audience or I'm trying to monetize, but then that monetization, I think, is so broad from like, uh, ad revenue brand deals- Yeah... 175 00:25:48.104 --> 00:25:56.384 to like I'm just trying to raise my profile so I can get a better job, and that's- Yeah... also monetization. Um- Mm-hmm... so I think, I mean, to your conversation about like where does it- Mm-hmm... 176 00:25:56.414 --> 00:26:07.564 where does the border lie, I feel like it's like anybody who is making connect- who, anybody who other people have a parasocial relationship with- Yeah... no matter how few, even if you just have- Yeah... 177 00:26:07.584 --> 00:26:11.394 one of those, right? Mm-hmm. Which goes back to what I was saying with the newsletter, where it's like you're sending it one to many. Yeah. 178 00:26:11.404 --> 00:26:19.584 And so, like, if you're a creator it means you're creating content one to many- Yeah... that's meant to reach people beyond people you know in real life, right? Yeah, yeah. No, I agree. 179 00:26:19.704 --> 00:26:29.104 I think if you're, if you're opening up Instagram and posting with an awareness of an audience, then you're c- then that is posting as a creator. Um, 180 00:26:30.164 --> 00:26:37.014 and I think about it 'cause I remember like growing up I was always like, "I wanna be a writer. When can I call myself a writer?" Same. And the thinking was always like if you write, you're a writer. Mm-hmm. 181 00:26:37.054 --> 00:26:47.064 And it's like, well if you make a reel, are you a creator? Maybe. Mm. Like I said, that, but that like, I, it's hard because also that's just like so not the same level of respected. Um- Mm-hmm... 182 00:26:47.084 --> 00:26:50.144 and- Well, it's, I think then it's like the, this goes back to like the, the money difference. 183 00:26:50.164 --> 00:26:57.704 It's like, maybe you're a creator, but maybe what a, what a creator is in this way that like we're kind of talking about is like a media business. And creator- Mm... 184 00:26:57.724 --> 00:27:09.903 a creator is just a type of media business that's like personal brand driven. Like- Yeah... MrBeast, obviously like- Mm-hmm... huge version of that. But like, so is, I don't know, like Nolita Dirtbag in a way. Yeah. 185 00:27:09.924 --> 00:27:18.884 Right? Mm-hmm. I dunno. Yeah. I think it's pretty vague and I think it's changing, but I think it's kinda like if you're doing the work, because it is work- Mm-hmm... 186 00:27:18.964 --> 00:27:28.844 um, then yeah, like you can call yourself that, uh, even though like I think I would, you know... It, I think it, you can feel bashful about it the way I probably- [laughs]... used to feel- Yeah... 187 00:27:28.933 --> 00:27:34.364 bashful about being like, "Yeah, I'm a writer." But like I do have the backing now of like being able to say I get paid for it, but I don't think you... 188 00:27:34.504 --> 00:27:42.474 Yeah, like you said, I don't think you have to monetize in that way. I think if you have an audience who you are creating content for- Mm-hmm... then you are- Yeah... creating. The benefits are, are bigger. 189 00:27:42.884 --> 00:27:51.244 Um, real quick, I do wanna touch on embedded stats. We talked about roughly- Yeah... you said you're around- Mm-hmm... 35K. Um, I guess the other stats would be open rate, click rate, um- Yeah... 190 00:27:51.264 --> 00:28:03.774 and then p- like percentage of subscribers who are p- Yeah... paying for you. Yeah, uh-huh. Okay, so the open rate, the, the bigger the, um, free subscribers are, you know, the open rate gets a little... 191 00:28:03.804 --> 00:28:13.184 Like once we t- tipped over- The percentage goes down... 30,000, yeah, the percentage went down. So it used to be in the f- like 42% open rate, now I'd say it's like 36% open rate. 192 00:28:13.204 --> 00:28:22.984 I was looking before- Well, which is also like email-wide is happening- Yeah... right now- Uh-huh... I understand, right? Yeah. Yeah. Okay, I would say the views range between 20K... 193 00:28:24.004 --> 00:28:38.384 Yeah, they're in like the, they're in the 20Ks, 25, um, and then we will occasionally have something that like takes off and just gets like a ton. Um- Mm-hmm... like- The productivity monitoring one, I believe, right? 194 00:28:38.424 --> 00:28:54.024 Yeah, that one did well. Um, right now I'm just... Yeah, it's, it's, it, it falls anywhere between 20 to 30K views. Um, and like a- Mm-hmm. Pretty good... it is always falling around the 35 open rate. 195 00:28:54.054 --> 00:29:03.374 And I mean, there are always some flops. Um- Mm. So, um, what about like click rate? Maybe like on one of the Sunday link roundup issue, 'cause it- Let's see. Yeah... 196 00:29:03.374 --> 00:29:19.884 your other, your other essays aren't necessarily about clicking. Um, but yeah- Yeah... the link roundups. So my most recent Sunday Scroll had a 61% open rate. Um, but yeah, so the, this is it. It has... 197 00:29:20.424 --> 00:29:35.444 I'm always like, who is, how is this working out? Because it has like 316 opens, but then 683 total views. I don't know what that means. But basically the, um, the link click rate is 18%. Oh. 198 00:29:35.504 --> 00:29:45.214 Um- That's pretty good, yeah. It's pretty good, yeah. It's not like the numbers aren't huge, but I also like, it, the, it's a smaller pool of people, and I don't do a ton of links because- Yeah... 199 00:29:45.414 --> 00:29:52.564 I, I thought I would have a lot more, and it turns out I like actually am not- No, you're less online these days, right? I know. I literally was like Goddammit, like I need to be like... 200 00:29:53.124 --> 00:29:59.144 So y- but I, you know, I just will go through my history. I'll go through my group chat. I'll try to like make, I wanna make it super organic, like what- Mm-hmm... 201 00:29:59.164 --> 00:30:09.004 are me and my friends talking about, what's getting shared, um- Today in Tab Sky... what did I actually read? Yeah. Mm-hmm. And so, um, and so yeah, it'll vary. And then I'll always do like some self-promotion. 202 00:30:09.544 --> 00:30:17.564 Notably I did just notice in that link roundup absolutely none of the links were [laughs] anything I wrote, but it was like good 'cause they're- All ads... they're, they're linking on the stuff I recommend, like- Yeah... 203 00:30:17.584 --> 00:30:26.870 the stories from GQ, and I, I didn't write that. But it was like- Mm... well, then I was jealous I hadn't written. Um-Okay, wait Yeah, so One, one, one, one more question about stats quick. Mm-hmm. 204 00:30:26.870 --> 00:30:31.360 Uh, how has the audience grown? You said it's been, like, 10,000 free subscribers- Yeah... a year basically. Mm-hmm. 205 00:30:31.440 --> 00:30:39.260 Is that, like, do people come, like, through, you know, when you write for GQ or whatever they look up your name? Is it, like, the My Internet? 'Cause I know the My Internet is always free. Yeah. 206 00:30:39.319 --> 00:30:48.320 Is it, like, people- It's honestly, there will be... And I would say earlier on there were more spikes. Like, someone I have to shout out is Rachel Carton who does Link in Bio- Mm. The GOAT... 207 00:30:48.380 --> 00:30:53.610 did really early on just put randomly in one of her newsletters, like, "I really like this newsletter Embedded," and that's- Mm... 208 00:30:53.610 --> 00:31:05.340 probably, like, sort of, um, percentage wise compared to what we already had, like, our biggest spike. And then from then on it would be just, like, someone genuinely recommending it. Um- Mm. Now, 209 00:31:06.360 --> 00:31:14.830 uh, I do think it just ki- ob- like, just every piece either it gets shared or, like, yeah, it's a creator who I'm interview- interviewing shares or the My Internet person. Mm-hmm. 210 00:31:14.830 --> 00:31:27.460 It just, I would say mostly it comes from collecting people along the way, but when I do write something, when I write something in the Atlantic, uh, it's in my bio, and I'll notice that it'll get a few people. 211 00:31:27.520 --> 00:31:36.820 But it's funny 'cause people are not... I remember one time I was, The Washington Post wanted to quote me about something, and, like, they linked to Embedded, and I remember being like, "Oh, like, it's in the piece. 212 00:31:36.860 --> 00:31:40.860 It's a link." And I would say, like, two, maybe two- [laughs]... subscribers. 213 00:31:40.920 --> 00:31:49.370 And so it's just, like, it, it, I think it really comes from, like, I think broad endorsements on, like, from, like, leg- It's like it' it, people kinda glaze over it. I think it's- Mm... 214 00:31:49.400 --> 00:32:00.170 really if someone who they follow, who they like, or a friend forwards it to them, um, they'll do it. Because I just not- it just is little by little a little, a handful every time something goes out, um- Yeah... 215 00:32:00.200 --> 00:32:01.040 and that's how it grows. 216 00:32:01.080 --> 00:32:12.880 And for paid, for a while I was doing something they would tell you not to do, which was I'd just paywall the interviews because I was being, like, precious about my precious little essays and I wanted- Yeah... 217 00:32:12.910 --> 00:32:15.620 as many people to read them as possible, but that was what people liked. 218 00:32:15.660 --> 00:32:24.150 And you either are interested in an interview or you're not, and also, you know, the person you're interviewing is less inclined to share it if it's paywalled. It was not a good strategy. Yeah. 219 00:32:24.150 --> 00:32:33.360 So this year starting at the end of last year I just, I switched it. I, I have one free essay a month. The rest are paywalled, and I had to just, like, get over it. 220 00:32:33.400 --> 00:32:41.500 And then un-paywalling the interviews is great because then they, they share it and people can read it and you get- Yeah. Yeah, it was like, I was like for two years- Good strategy... making a bad business decision. 221 00:32:41.620 --> 00:32:51.170 [laughs] And really our paid subscribers were not growing when that was the case, because at the time I was employed full time at places. Mm-hmm. And so it was just what mattered to me more was, like, the bigger number. 222 00:32:51.480 --> 00:32:58.529 Um- Yeah... but then when now I'm just way more concerned or, you know, not conc- Gonna make a living... like, I'm way more- Sustainable income... in- interested in, like, paid subscribers- Mm... 223 00:32:58.529 --> 00:33:08.800 and making it sustainable rather than... 'Cause once you do hit a certain number, you're just y- it's not possible that over 30,000 people are all exactly really dedicated to Embedded. 224 00:33:08.820 --> 00:33:16.360 You're getting a lot more, like, uh, surface people. Yeah. Not surface people. [laughs] But like- As opposed to mole people. [laughs] Mole people, yeah. 225 00:33:16.390 --> 00:33:19.930 [laughs] You're just getting people who are like, "Oh, sure, I'll subscribe because I see-" Yeah, yeah, yeah. "... that it's a popular newsletter." 226 00:33:20.400 --> 00:33:30.160 It's, it's what I'm saying is not meant to be a diss on any, like, recent followers. It's more that, like, I notice this happens to big creators where, like, someone like Charli D'Amelio who has- Mm-hmm... 100K. 227 00:33:30.740 --> 00:33:37.420 No, my God, that's so low. Uh, she has 100 million, um- Yeah. Well, how your en-... followers on- How your engagement rate goes down as you grow your- Yeah, her engagement rate- Yeah... 228 00:33:37.440 --> 00:33:46.180 is really poor because I think some people just start following because they've heard about her and are like, "Sure, I'll follow." Um, I don't, I'm not saying we're Charli D'Amelio. [laughs] Yeah. 229 00:33:46.340 --> 00:33:53.040 But it is, I do think you reach a certain level where it's just like, um- That's, that's the headline for this newsletter. Yeah, yeah. The Charli D'Amelio of, of Substack. [laughs] Of, of Substack. 230 00:33:53.240 --> 00:34:10.040 Um, no, yeah, it's more that, like, basically, basically what I think I've learned is, like, I, it do- it does read as a disservice to, like, just think about growing numbers, and now I'd rather the people who are kind enough to, like, pay or the people who are kind enough to be really engaged readers who don't pay, who exist and are great, like- Mm... 231 00:34:10.100 --> 00:34:23.040 I wanna write for them. And I'm glad to have other people there. Um, and, but, you know, it's just, it's just, I... That's almost... You just have to pick. You need to focus your efforts a little bit. It's hard. Yeah. 232 00:34:23.160 --> 00:34:26.029 I, I'm reading Taylor Lorenz's book right now, Extremely On- Mm-hmm... 233 00:34:26.050 --> 00:34:35.680 Extremely Online, and she was talking about how, like, blogger, like, back, you know, 25 years a, a quarter century ago blogging started, and, um, and then, like, people were like, "Oh, nobody was gonna wanna read that. 234 00:34:35.740 --> 00:34:45.880 It's like y- it's not, not, not edited enough," et cetera. Mm. People start reading blogs. Um, actually it turns out people do like even if, even if it is lower quality and more colloquial- Yeah... whatever. 235 00:34:45.920 --> 00:34:54.340 10 years later they start doing, you know, the bloggers start getting absorbed back into, like, traditional media- Mm... or, like, new media institutions. Um- Yeah... 236 00:34:54.380 --> 00:35:00.040 and then, you know, seven, eight years later then it's newsletters, and I feel like we're having this conversation again. Um- Mm-hmm... 237 00:35:00.080 --> 00:35:09.930 and then, like, newsletter writers, like, I mean, not that you, you were not a newsletter writer first, but you- Mm-hmm... Ryan Broderick, uh, Jack Raines of Young Money are all newsletter writers writing for- Mm-hmm... 238 00:35:09.930 --> 00:35:14.280 Sherwood, right? And I- Yeah... I'm like, is it just this... So there's two kinda things in here. 239 00:35:14.380 --> 00:35:20.660 Is it just, like, this endless cycle and, like, panic over, like, creators are the new journalists, journal- like, the journalist creators- Yeah... model? 240 00:35:20.700 --> 00:35:28.510 Like, I, I have a feeling that maybe it's just, like, this, like, wave of, you know, institutional people leave, people get laid off, et cetera. Mm. 241 00:35:28.580 --> 00:35:37.270 Um, maybe the more interesting question within this, though, is about media literacy, and I feel like- Mm-hmm... people that me- like, there's less trust in institutions and, like- Yeah... 242 00:35:37.540 --> 00:35:47.160 big news outlets than ever, um, and people are going more to indie creators and creator journalists. Mm-hmm. But I'm, I'm, I'm not sure whether or not that actually represents, like, 243 00:35:48.200 --> 00:35:51.820 a increase in media literacy and, like, skepticism and, like, you know- Mm-hmm... 244 00:35:51.840 --> 00:36:01.490 and a- analyzing a bit what you're, what you're consuming by going to the individual, or is it just, like, moving that trust in the institution to the individuals? I don't know. Yeah. 245 00:36:01.500 --> 00:36:08.160 I think it's- Is me- what, what media literacy, what's the state of it? [laughs] I think it's the same reason why I would say that influencers are falling out of favor. 246 00:36:08.420 --> 00:36:21.770 I do think there is this inherent skepticism of these institutions, which are people with enough power that you then... Or that, that beh- have... It's hard to trust them because- Yeah... 247 00:36:21.860 --> 00:36:31.924 um, an influencerWho gets tons of followers and suddenly gets, like, leveled up. It's not coming at you as a relatable person. They're, like, kind of in a new tier. 248 00:36:32.244 --> 00:36:42.084 You don't know if you can trust the recommendation because now they're kind of just a- And what are the motivations? Yeah, they're kinda just a billboard now. Mm-hmm. Um, same I think with 249 00:36:43.264 --> 00:36:50.814 ins- There are flaws and biases within institutions. I've, like- They're just people at the end of the day. Yeah. Or it's like... 250 00:36:50.844 --> 00:37:02.004 And, you know, and there's, there's a lot of stuff behind the scenes that you also can't talk about if there's, like, an issue with why this piece went out weird- Mm-hmm... the way it did, or, like, why this, um... 251 00:37:02.024 --> 00:37:15.144 And so bas- Like, you- there's just an honesty that can't happen 'cause you're protecting, like- Mm... there's a, like, you're protecting decisions. This isn't anything in particular. L- like, um- Yeah... 252 00:37:15.184 --> 00:37:24.464 like, it, it just... I just think you have to be... There's an awareness that, uh, you don't know what's... I think, I think the black box of what's- Yeah... happening- Mm... 253 00:37:24.484 --> 00:37:33.484 behind the article, people can fill in with their own skepticism. Yeah. And so I think it's like... 'Cause, you know, there are some times where I'm like, you know, 254 00:37:34.424 --> 00:37:42.584 The New York Times, like, publishes one opinion, and they publish the other. And people are like, "So, what is it?" And, like, that's- Yeah... a comprehension issue. Like, it's a... They... It's not their job. 255 00:37:42.614 --> 00:37:47.354 Like, they are constantly- Well, and I'm constantly, like, checking, like, the headl- like, what are the head... They change the headlines, like, four times a day. Yes, yes. Yeah. 256 00:37:47.384 --> 00:37:54.564 I'm checking the app just to monitor that now. Um- Not even to read the article, but just to monitor- Yeah... how they're reframing. Or, oh, like, actually, this is a good example. It's, like, in The Cut. 257 00:37:54.634 --> 00:38:01.184 The Cut published something, an article from someone where it was like, "Motherhood didn't change me at all." Mm. And then they published a thing that was like, "Motherhood changed me." 258 00:38:01.444 --> 00:38:09.554 And all the comments on that one were like, "What? You just said it didn't change you." [laughs] And that I think is an effect of, like, pr- like, a parasocial, like, influence. Yeah. 259 00:38:09.584 --> 00:38:18.714 It's like, well, that's because The Cut is not a singular person. It is an outlet that publishes many- Mm. Yeah... um, many opinions. Like, there, there- That's the difference between- Yeah... 260 00:38:18.714 --> 00:38:26.594 an institution and a creator... and, but I think when you're, when you're raised to... 'Cause that's also another thing. I will even have when I write something, uh, like, Millennial Pause. 261 00:38:26.684 --> 00:38:35.873 I w- like, I would be like, "People are making fun of millennials online." And then someone... All the replies are like, "Why are you making fun of millennials?" And it's like, no. There's... 262 00:38:36.064 --> 00:38:45.634 I am reporting on something that's happening from the outside. But there's this, I think from growing up with creators and getting news that way, it's very, like, they think... They're like, "It's you doing this." Yeah. 263 00:38:45.634 --> 00:38:55.774 "You are the face." Mm. That's interesting. Um, one more question. Yeah. Uh, do you have any advice for people who write newsletters given that you've been doing this for years both for institutions- Yeah... 264 00:38:55.824 --> 00:39:07.084 and yourself? Yeah. I would say, like, I mean, like, it, it is, like... 'Cause it... I, like I even said, I started in media, like, 10 years ago, and I feel like I spent the first five years of my time in media feeling 265 00:39:08.144 --> 00:39:18.364 like I wanted better for myself just in... or feeling really stuck. I got... Like, I'm really grateful for what I got in... how I got into media, and I had a lot of, like, fun. But then it was really hard to grow. 266 00:39:18.484 --> 00:39:25.044 Um, and I think I was annoyed because I was like, had so much noise around me from other people that... Not, not because I was like... 267 00:39:25.124 --> 00:39:29.604 I wasn't annoyed that I wasn't, like, a staff writer at The New York Times because I thought my work was, like, warranted that. 268 00:39:29.644 --> 00:39:39.504 But I was, like, annoyed at myself for not having gotten there yet, um, and not allowing myself, like, the fact that you need time. Um, and- Mm. Crucial ingredient. Yeah. 269 00:39:39.544 --> 00:39:46.704 And I would say, like, you just f- Now being able to look back on 10 years, it was, like, the slow grind of all those things. And you... 270 00:39:46.804 --> 00:39:57.264 I can point to, like, meeting that person or writing that thing or answering that DM that then led me to this. It's like the, the ripple effect that happens. And, um, of, like, everything I... 271 00:39:57.344 --> 00:40:06.244 Everything is connected, and everything I have now is built on, on that just because, like, that is the inciting incident for some relationship or whatever. Um- Yeah... 272 00:40:06.284 --> 00:40:14.144 but then also specifically newsletter is what I mentioned earlier, like consistency. Like I said, like, our followers don't come because of some, like, big thing. 273 00:40:14.304 --> 00:40:27.093 It, it comes because, like, for the most part, every three... or three days a week or four if you are a paid subscriber, you're getting the same thing. Um, and every time you get, like, maybe... 274 00:40:27.274 --> 00:40:35.864 I w- it would start with, like, maybe three free subscribers. Mm. Maybe then you get 10. There'd be a one that blows up. It's like you, you ha- Like, and you just- One foot in front of the other. Yeah. 275 00:40:36.004 --> 00:40:48.944 And, and you have to keep doing it. And, uh, I think the hardest part is the beginning when you're not gonna get the numbers you want, um, and just trusting that you have the... 276 00:40:48.964 --> 00:40:59.024 Yeah, one foot in front of the other, just, like, you have to keep coming back and doing it because, like, I would... It's pretty rare that you're gonna start a newsletter and suddenly become, like, a superstar. 277 00:40:59.084 --> 00:41:04.794 It's, like, pretty rare that you're gonna start a- It's kind of the, the opposite of what Spotify does. It's pretty rare that you're gonna start a newsletter- Yeah... and even over time become a superstar. Yeah. 278 00:41:04.794 --> 00:41:08.904 Like, that can't be why you're getting into it because the odds are like- Charlie D'Amelio. [laughs] Yeah, yeah. [laughs] It's just like... 279 00:41:08.924 --> 00:41:16.754 It's like I said, like, I feel like we're in a pretty good place, but it's nowhere near my full-time income. Yeah. So it's just, like, um... But what it is valuable, it has been in sort of more, 280 00:41:17.664 --> 00:41:29.004 um, you know, it, it has risen the profile or whatever of my work. And, um- Yeah. Brought you more-... and gotten me a lot of opportunities, and also I think makes my work better because I'm forced to write about... 281 00:41:29.074 --> 00:41:37.414 I mean, I'm forced to write every week. It w- it can never get rusty. [laughs] Yeah. No, that's... I mean, I think it's, like, the simple but best advice. Mm. Um, anyways, where should people find you? 282 00:41:38.784 --> 00:41:50.744 [laughs] Um, yeah, sorry. I was just taking a sip of seltzer. Um, yeah, so Embedded on Substack, uh, three times a week or four if you feel like paying. And then I am Katherine Fiona, Katherine with a K and a Y, 283 00:41:51.964 --> 00:42:01.904 um, uh, across all other social media, Instagram, Twitter, TikTok. I don't... Twitter's kind of a wasteland, but, uh, Instagram is probably- More active on TikTok these days, you are. I am. 284 00:42:01.964 --> 00:42:10.974 Every so often I'll brave it, but it is so scary. Mm. It's the beast's place. Like twice a month. Yeah. Yeah, yeah. Um, yeah. It's the... But I would say Instagram is the place to go if you want, like, real updates. 285 00:42:11.014 --> 00:42:16.944 Yeah. But I would say, actually, no, sorry. I would... Embedded is the place to go. [laughs] See? That's why I'm not good at this. There we go. Yeah. Yeah. [laughs] Cool. 286 00:42:17.024 --> 00:42:27.724 Uh, well, this has been the Creator Spotlight podcast. Kate Lindsey has been our guest. Uh, I have been Francis Zear, and I will be Francis Zear next week. And I'll see you, [laughs] see you then. 287 00:42:29.664 --> 00:42:42.064 [outro music]