Welcome back to the Creator Spotlight podcast.
My guest today is Kate Lindsay, who is known for writing about internet culture in her newsletter Embedded and all sorts of publications like The New York Times, The Atlantic, and GQ.
Ah, some recent topics she's written about are online username markets, moms FaceTuning their children unwillingly, and remote work productivity monitoring.
Uh, besides writing about the internet, she also sometimes makes ceramics about it. Um, she's currently selling handmade mugs painted in the patterns of New York Times, ah, games Wordle and Connection Grids.
Um, that's a abbreviated intro of who you are. Uh, do you have anything to add? No, other than I hope by Christmas I'm gonna also do just traditional crossword mugs as well. Oh, okay.
Not yet, but- That's a lot more work, though, I feel like. Yeah, I know. I know. That's down the line. [laughs] Yeah. Um, okay, so I guess we'll start with Embedded. Yeah. Get into plenty of other things. Um, it's...
So it's a regular newsletter. I think it's like- Yeah... usually three days a week, sometimes four, sometimes two. Yeah. Uh, you've got Sundays are, like, link roundups. Mm-hmm. You know, classic newsletter form.
Mondays and Wednesdays might be some of your essays, and then Fridays are often, uh, this, like, written interview series called My Internet. Yeah. Um, am I missing anything? Like, how else- No.
What would you describe Embedded as? No. Yeah.
I would say the, the aim is always three times a week, an essay on Monday, uh, an interview on Wednesday, and a My Internet survey on Friday, and the My Internet survey is a little bit...
'Cause an interview is normally about something specific that a person or creator is doing, whereas My Internet is we just find cool people and ask them- Templatized...
yeah, how they, they fill out a survey about how they spend their time online, which is always fun. Okay, cool. So No Filter was the editorial arm of Influencer.co, which I understand- Yeah...
is like a two-way influencer marketplace- Yeah. Mm-hmm... um, like, slash kind of social media network. Uh- Yeah... and in May 2020 they hired Nick Catucci to make an editorial outlet for them- Yeah...
which was No Filter. Uh, he hires you two months later- Mm-hmm... to be kind of the sole writer. You write a s- you know, presumably hundreds of articles for the website- [laughs]...
and then one year later, out of nowhere, it shuts down. Embedded becomes a, you know, out of the ashes rises as a Substack, whatever. Yeah. Um, and then Nick remains editor- Yeah... and you remain writer.
So that's, like... I don't know. Do you wanna add any color to that? No, I'm so shocked at how thorough the research is, down to the month.
Yeah, I mean, I had been at Refinery29 for, like, combining full-time and freelance, four years before that, and while I was there, I, I always grew up watching YouTubers specifically, and so my scope was really small in the beginning- Hmm...
which was just, like, I think... I was on the entertainment team and I remember just being like, "We should be writing about these YouTubers." Hmm.
But this was pre-pandemic and so it, it was just an uphill battle to get it published. Hmm. But it re- the... It was kind of crazy, like, the moment the pandemic hit and nothing was filming, like, things were...
Some things were still coming out, but it was like suddenly, suddenly my skillset was valuable because everyone was, uh, was making content online or turning to content creators, and so it kinda was a coincidence that, like, that also coincided with me going to No Filter because I'd been at Refinery for a long time.
I basically felt like I didn't know what was next there, and I knew that if I... Like, it was one of those things where I could easily just stay there until I got laid off, um- [laughs] Yeah... which, uh, which I...
It would have happened. Um- As it does. Yeah, but I was like, "You know what? If I don't... I, I'm never gonna leave if I don't leave now for this," because it was, like, a bit of a risk.
It was a, you know, like, totally brand new. Um, but I figured if I could just, one, get, get out, make some progress, um, and two, just see what it's like working somewhere where
it's just internet culture coverage and we can, uh, shape it and grow it. Um, I, like, I learned just a lot about starting something- Mm-hmm...
and, and wrangling interviews when you don't really have anything to point to. Um, so it was definitely really good, and we grew quite a bit.
But yeah, just, uh, it was just one of those things, like, ev- the economic times were really bad and, um, you know, when you're looking to cut something, it is often- Yeah... editorial that goes first, and so...
But luckily we were able to just take it and transition it into... We were able to use the old email list because we did- Oh, okay. Yeah. That's what I meant... send out highlights as a newsletter.
We basically were able to use that list to... We couldn't take the emails, but we could email them and go, "Hey, we're moving to this." Ask to opt in. Yeah. Um- How, how big was it, the email list? Do you mind?
The email list was pretty big. It was, like, I think 30,000. Nice. We got maybe 500 people who opted in, which isn't bad. It's not starting from scratch. Um- In terms of, like, a click rate, I mean, that's pretty good.
Yeah. Yeah, yeah. So we got 500 people, uh, ish, and then, you know, some people just from the announcement. But really it's just sort of grown, I would say, by, like...
Uh, but it, it grows steadily at about 10K per year for subscribers, and so we're at... I was looking at all this stuff 'cause I'm actually very hands-off with the numbers for my own, like- I, I read that, yeah...
emotions. But, um, but I was looking just so I could come prepared. And so yeah, we're, we're close to hitting 35, uh, K right now- Nice... which is crazy and, like, still not...
It's still something that, that for mo- the most part I just send off into a void, and I'll get, like, some feedback, but really, like, it's been very weird, especially as it was something that started in the pandemic and now we're all sort of out and about again- Mm-hmm...
to, like, run in and see living, breathing pe- people who are like, "Oh, I read your newsletter." And it's so... That's still weird to square. But, um- Yeah... but yeah. No- I, I love it. Yeah.
When you m- when you made the transition- Mm-hmm... and started Embedded, um, I'm curious how, like, the editorial mission or voice changed, or if it did at all. Like, and I'm, obviously- Yeah... I'm sure now it has.
Mm-hmm. So I guess, like, how was it different, if at all, maybe those first few months to a year, and then- Yeah... from that, how has it changed to now?
Well, yeah, so when it started, it was very, it was more like the original website, which was creator interviews. Um, and we also were doing it because we had a very generous severance- Hmm. Nice...
that we were able to, like, for three months we were like, "Okay, let's just-Pretend this is our job now. It's like seed funding. And the Se- yeah, that The Severance- Mm-hmm...
is paying us and we'll t- so we, it was unmonetized. I think I was writing five days a week, like, just something really short every day.
And so that was good in the sense, and this is what I'll always say when people ask is, like, now it's this like, it, I think it could be very easy if you are in charge of your own publishing if you don't have an idea, it's really tempting to be like, "Well, I just won't write something."
And what I think was good about, especially 'cause Nick took it very seriously- Mm-hmm...
and, like, the theme of all this is gonna be that Nick looks at the numbers, Nick is the one who- Well, 'cause he also, he has like, I don't know, like 20 years of experience on you or something. Yeah... yes. Yeah.
So if I didn't, I think if I worry that if I ha- if I hadn't had him to be accountable to, I don't really know if it would've- Which is awesome... done as well. Yeah. No, it's really, it's really great.
And so, like, yeah, so I just, and, and I think it's helpful to get yourself in a routine of, like, needing to come up with an idea.
And, and not saying that they're bad ideas, but it just makes you, if you're just waiting for inspiration to strike, you know, maybe that's what, like, the idyllic writer life is like. But it's not one- Yeah...
for a writer that needs to sort of- Not for the 21st century... make money. Yeah. [laughs] Yeah. And so, and so it's good.
Also, you push yourself and I'm also someone who very much will just start with a big idea and then find what it is I'm, I really think or I'm trying to say as I'm writing, and then I go back and, like, reangle it.
Um- Mm-hmm. That's like the point of writing, right? Yeah, yeah. [laughs] And so, so yeah.
So the first year was very much that, but I think what, what we kind of also were, we wanted to lean into what was exciting about having a newsletter, which was we
weren't writing a website where we were trying to convince strangers to click. Mm-hmm. We were ostensibly sending out writing to people who had already expressed a desire to read it.
And so it meant that we were free from, you know, um, you know, writing an explainer on drama. And I really, that kind of allowed me to move a bit away.
I mean, so much of my early internet career was explainers, and I do think those have a place, but I think one of the things I started to realize, and I've said this before, but is just when I was doing dedicated internet culture coverage at No Filter, I would talk to the people in my life about what I wrote about that day, and they would be like, "I've never heard of that person- Yeah...
or that thing." And I would kind of start to be like, and I think it's easy to be like, well, there's, like, regular people on the extremely online, but the regular people still have phones, and they- Yeah...
have Instagram, they have all this stuff. And so I was like, "Why- You were getting too inside baseball on, like, the moment of the day. Right.
It was just like, well, how is this internet culture coverage if it, at a certain point it feels like I'm just writing for other internet culture journalists and not- Yeah...
like, ac- 'cause everyone uses social media and the internet. I mean, not everyone, but I, I just was like, okay, I just, right now the internet culture writing is not indicative of the larger experience- Mm-hmm...
of being on the internet. And I felt I was doing the importance of the internet a bit of a disservice by only writing about it through the lens of, like, this teen is mad at this teen. Yeah.
And like I said, I was just like- Well, so you go from that, from like this teen is mad at this teen, to like what's the, like how do teens experience being online? Yeah. And like what are the implications of that? Yeah.
Yeah. And you move from like, you know, like m- micro to macro kind of view. Yeah.
What I, what I've said is that rather than, like, my beginning career was writing about what was happening, like, on the phone, and now I try to write about what's happening to the person who's holding the phone. Mm.
That's good. Um, and I, I find that that can just, it, it, I've just found when I think about it through that way, like frankly, the piece just does better.
And so then, and you know, it's like I'm not totally altruistic. I'm like, oh, like, this, you know, I w- I wanna, like, the best feeling is just writing something people feel seen in. Mm-hmm.
And unless they're a certain subset of internet user, they're, you know, they're, they are not seen in the really specific micro trends that are happening.
Um, they're, they're seen in the broader stuff, like why do dating apps suck now? Things like that. Yeah. That's more relevant. Yeah. I did wanna ask about, like- Mm-hmm... how you make money. So I know- Mm-hmm...
you have this. Um, you- Yeah... you're, you're a freelance writer. You're like- Mm-hmm... constantly publishing articles. Um, and then also, like, I only saw this in your Instagram bio, you work for this company DM.
Yeah. Yeah. Um, I didn't see it on your LinkedIn, but I s- it was in your Instagram- Oh my God... so I was like, is this a full-time job? I like never update my LinkedIn. Oh, well, yeah. No.
I just never- 'Cause we can get into LinkedIn later... no, it's like- Um, but yeah, so what do you, what do you do for work? [laughs] Yeah.
So I'd say, like, my main sources of income, and I'm like very open to being transparent about this stuff 'cause I, like, don't think there's any reason to- Mm-hmm... it just, like, only helps people. So- Okay...
I would say my main come in, main income is Embedded. I would say, I, I have it so I get, it pays me on the 15th of each month. Um,
I, it r- it really actually fluctuates more than you would think depending on who, you know, 'cause there's churn, but then there's like sometimes you get an influx.
And so I can get anywhere from, I would say, like, the base lowest that I get now would be $1,500, um, dollars a month. Yeah. But then the most I've ever gotten, I remember, because this was insane, um, was 3,000.
Oh, wow. And, and I don't super know what happened. It's just like who... And so I'll usually get something between that, um, a month, um, which is my rent. [laughs] Yeah. Essentially.
And, um, and so then on the outside of that, yeah, I do have a contract with GQ where I write, like, a handful of stories a month.
There's Embedded, there's GQ, and then there's DM, which are all contract roles, um, where I, like, log my hours.
And so it's kind of like those are just what I will get no matter what because I'm, like, doing, I'm doing those things. Yeah. And then on, on top of that, so at DM I'm a newsletter editor- Yeah... there.
And so what I am in charge, it's a part-time role. And, um, I basically just, they have two newsletters a week.
I either write them or I help curate them or help edit people who write for them and just get it out and just kinda keep it flowing. Um, and also, like, I'm in meetings and come up with, like, ideas for the app.
The app is, should've started with that, I should [laughs] have explained. Um, it's- It's like a search engine for- Yeah. It's like a, it's ca- they call it like Reddit for [laughs] Reddit for hot girls. Yeah.
It's like a, it's like a sort of crowdsourced social search engine. It's fishwife Google. Yeah, yeah, yeah.
[laughs] You can come and, like, Google your, or you know, DM your problems, like, either, like, if you wanna know, like, about is this symptom normal for PMS or something- Mm...
or, um-Just like this really embarrassing thing happened to me, can you talk me off a ledge or whatever [laughs]... which is good. So yeah, so I do their newsletter. And then yeah, on top of that, I just, I do...
I, I freelance. Yeah. And The Atlantic, obviously- Yeah... I still, like, write for- What is- so wait, w- with The Atlantic, you, your title there was Newsletter Engagement Editor. Yeah. What does that mean?
That's a great question. I can tell you, like, the inside baseball out of it all was that, um, I had two competing job offers. Mm. And the original role at The Atlantic was, um, a more entry-level role.
Uh, but then, uh, I was, I got this offer from BuzzFeed, which was more. Um, and so they wanted to match it, but in order to match it, it had to be, because of union stuff, it needed to be a different title.
Um, and so that's, that's why [laughs] there's kind of this long story. So were you writing a newsletter there then, or, or were you- Um, sometimes I would write it. Okay.
I, my role, it was really, the whole team was pretty nebulous, uh, because it was, like, this new initiative they started, and so we kind of all just did each other... Like, it was just- Mm...
like, we all did, like, I was socialing stuff, I was literally just doing the production. Um, I was writing or, like, going through and, like, editing stuff, um, doing like- Mm... strategy stuff, ideas.
So like, really, really anything. Um, and then also because I was in there, I was like, "Well, I really wanna try and write." And it took a lot of failed pitches. Mm.
And actually, so the first thing I wrote for them was Millennial Pause. Ah. Mm-hmm. Um, which is so weird- Big one... because I was scrolling, scrolling the other day, and Ariana Grande was on Penn Badgley's podcast.
And uh- [laughs]... and he started recording, and then he was like, "Oh, I feel like I just millennial paused." And then she went, "Oh, you didn't millennial pause." And I'm like, it is so- It's crazy...
it's just, like, in the lexicon now. Mm-hmm. And that's so wild because I, I didn't coin the exact phrase, um, but- Yeah, you were writing as, like, a TikToker, then you wrote about that... yeah, a TikToker did.
And I noticed it, like, like months before The Atlantic piece, and I wrote a little piece for Embedded that was just the millennial pause.
And it was about- Which oh, wait, also d- for, you know, for anyone listening who doesn't know what it is, it's like when you start recording- Oh, yeah...
and you're like, and you, like, situate before you start talking- Yeah... right? You, you're like, you're checking to make sure it's recording- [laughs]... before you start. And the, the real sin is not doing that.
I would say, like, people of all ages do that, but, um, Gen Z knows to edit it out. Mm. And I think millennials leave it in, and they do, there are some egregious pauses [laughs] I've noticed. Yeah.
Um, but um, basically Taylor Swift had done it, and then this, this TikToker stitched it and was like, "Wow, even Taylor isn't immune to the millennial pause before you speak," or whatever. Mm-hmm.
And I was like, "Oh, that's so funny, like, the millennial pause."
Um, and yeah, so I wrote it for Embedded, and then the executive editor, Adrian of, um, The Atlantic, saw it and was like, "You should do a piece on millennialism- Mm... for The Atlantic."
And so the millennial pause was, like, the headline of it, and it was, like, the way in, but it was more broadly about the way that millennials are, have these sort of hallmarks of an earlier internet. Yeah.
And I tr- like, [laughs] it like, I mean, that piece, like, changed my life. It's like- Yeah... kind of crazy 'cause it just...
And, and I wouldn't, I remember being like, "I hope someone reads this because I hope my f- first Atlantic piece, you know, doesn't flop." And- It flew...
and like, I've never had any, uh, I've never had anything like it. I've had some things now close. Um, but uh, just in terms of, like, that, I, and I know I'm r- gonna remember certain things over others.
I didn't anticipate how upset it was gonna make some people. Mm. Um, and so I dealt with a lot of that. I dealt with a lot of, like, pretty nasty comments, and to this day, I, like, cannot figure out why. [laughs] Yeah.
Um, I guess people felt it was, like, ageist. Uh, and I don't know. That's- But it was- I mean, millennials-... so I'm a millen- Yeah, me too... I, um- What, it's like 29 to, like, 44 now? I don't even know. Yeah, yeah.
It's just, it was so weird. It's just like, no, like I think, 'cause I think it's interesting. I think these anthropological things are super interesting- Mm-hmm... about, like, how being on our phones.
I also think it's something like what a great thing to hold onto that little bit of humanity of like- Yeah... I am separate from my phone. I am checking.
Um, and p- they, I didn't coin this, they kind of, they being the nebulous audience- Yeah... on TikTok coined it afterwards.
It's called the Gen Z shake, which is like, they are so embedded with their phones that, like, they are recording when they're in the middle of talking. Like, like- Oh, yeah...
it's just coming in, and like, they're putting it down. But you're get- like, they couldn't wait. Um, they're not, like, getting- The media res. You could call it. Yeah. They're, yeah, exactly.
And, and so I think that's just so interesting the way that even a little, little simple action if you're pausing or if you're just starting, like, marks how you grew up online. Um- Mm-hmm...
so yeah, that piece, um, I'm kinda forgetting what question I'm answering. [laughs] Yeah. No, that's okay. Maybe we- Yeah... okay, we'll move on to another one. Uh, [laughs] I, I didn't wanna stop you. It was good stuff.
Um- [laughs] I, so I'm curious though, like, given that you do both, editor, you're a newsletter editor and- Yeah... a newsletter writer, what's like the relationship between those things? I don't know.
Like, what can you say about- I-... either role being on both sides of either role? Yeah. Edit- I mean, editing as all, I've only... I'm not, like, an experienced editor. I did some editing at- Mm-hmm... No Filter.
That was technically my role, was news editor. Mm. And so I would... But um, I have definitely found I do have more comfort as a writer.
And so the thing I try to do, especially with DM, a lot of the time we're getting, um, like, it's volunteer-based. Mm. Okay.
And right now because they, right now they're still in the early stages of getting funding for that type of thing. So I'm- It's like volunteers of, like, people who, like, are- Yeah...
power users of the app or something. Yeah, yeah. Mm. People who are on the app or, like, friends of mine or friends of Emma, the founder. Mm-hmm. Um, and so I'm very cognizant with that.
So I, I would say this, that changes the editing a little bit 'cause I'm cognizant that this person is not getting paid. Yeah. And so- You can't be harsh... I am like, yeah.
So I basically just try to go through and clean it up for them, and just be like, "Okay, here's either grammar stuff, and then like, here's where you can focus it a little bit," or maybe like, "I understand what you're saying here.
Um, maybe can you simplify it?" Or like, "This is really good. Is there any way you could talk about this a little earlier?" But like- Mm...
very light touch where it's just like I'm not gonna send it back and be like, "Take another stab at this." And they'll, they don't really, they don't need that.
Like, the people who volunteer to do it are doing it because they're very passionate. Mm-hmm.Yeah, so I try to be...
'Cause I think the edits I don't like, and Nick doesn't do this, but I've had editors in the past where it feels like it's just being edited to how they would've written it. Yeah. Yeah.
And I just, so I really try not to- That was me in high school at my school newspaper. [laughs] Yeah. [laughs] I was the opinion editor. Just here's what I would say. Yeah. Yeah, and so, um, so yeah.
So I just like really sh- I really try not to do that. And, um,
and I try to just be really, like both for being the, the payment reason and for just how I like kind of operate, it's like I, I think positivity is a better motivator than being like- Mm-hmm... this is...
So I try to be like, "Here's what's really great about this piece. Can we like push it more towards that?" Um, but I also feel very unqualified to give editing advice- Yeah... 'cause I'm so much more of a writer.
Um- Huh... and so I just try to take from like what I've learned from being edited by Nick, like okay, what norm- normally gets taken out, cross it out. Yeah. Um- Mm-hmm... okay. A different question.
This is kind of annoying, but I guess- No... what, what is a newsletter? What defines a newsletter? Like- Great... I have, I, I wanna hear yours, and then I have one. I think what it's...
'Cause like especially on Substack and most of these other platforms- Mm-hmm... um, th- it exists as a webpage, um- Mm-hmm... as well. And so it is sometimes I'm wondering what I'm prioritizing.
Like the thing is when it goes into inbox, I can't see it. Um, and so- Yeah...
but I would just say the relat- I mean, the what's different to me is kinda what I said earlier in how I approach it, is that like I'm exclusively writing for people who have expressed an interest in hearing from me.
Um- Mm-hmm... and, and so that just gives a kind of, it gives a kind of freedom, but it also makes me
wanna treat them, not that I would be disrespectful, but you know, I like, I'm like very cognizant of like this is a k- a kind thing [laughs]- Yeah... that people are doing.
It's, like you can have that more informal relationship. Yeah, and so- Have those colloquialisms. Yeah. And so and I'm also like so, like I don't, I don't ever wanna phone it in- Mm-hmm...
for anything like that because- Especially when they've paid. They're paying you- Right, right... to write this for them.
Like- Like I just feel so much more of a real relationship there where I just am like, no, like they, the, like I, I, I think it, that I say that only because a lot of my early career, like we mentioned, was during a time when like SEO but also like Facebook was really big- Mm-hmm...
for news. And it was honestly- Were we ever so young? I know. And it's not like you were writing with blatant disregard- Uh-huh...
for the reader, but you were writing something that would have a headline that you knew what you were doing with it. Um, and or you knew it was gonna make people mad- Yeah... and that's why you did it.
And like that's not super... So sometimes I will be aware of, oh, this will probably make... Well, for Embedded, I really don't do that.
Basically Embedded is like free from me trying to stoke a specific negative emotion from you to get you to read it. Yeah. And I don't think I will ever do that.
Um, and I w- some of my freelance pieces I'm like, I will be writing something and be like, "They're gonna hate this." [laughs] Yeah. Um, but it's different whereas like Embedded I'm
not, I'm not trying to make people angry. Like, I just want people to feel rel- relatable or to like read the thing that they hadn't, that they'd been thinking but hadn't been written yet. Yeah.
That's, that's, that's a really good definition. I think it's... I was like trying to come up with a really umbrella one. Yeah. I think I read this last night.
Um, I wrote it as an email written one to many, sent on a regular basis. Yeah. And that's like- Yeah, that's very, that's the bare bones... it's like the most like clinical, right? Yeah. [laughs] I don't know.
Um, but I like you. I think the relationship there is- Mm-hmm... is much, is like more accurate. I don't know. It's a... I guess mine is trying to capture like... I don't know.
I talk to people who are, it's more like business-driven than creator- creative-driven. Mm-hmm.
Which is like this is like I'm constantly, you know, tweaking my theory of creator, which is like currently it's like, it's like a Venn diagram, right? Yeah.
Where like if you're trying to create content online, and like, you know, with some goal of like audience building or monetizing, whatever, it's like you either are like creative driven and that's your skill, or you're like business-marketing driven and that's your skill.
Yeah. And like at a certain point if you want it to like be anything, do anything, you have to like meet in the middle somewhere- Yeah...
either by, you know, learning those skills or like working with somebody from the other side. And I've seen people who like are like clearly more the business-marketing type of person- Mm-hmm...
but like are trying to be a creator, and it's like it's just not good. And maybe they've built- Yeah... an audience and it's not good.
Um, and it's like, oh, they should just like find somebody who's like a good writer and like they should work together or something. Um, which, okay, and kinda moves into another question, another, uh, definition.
What i- Yeah... how do you define the word creator? What is that term? 'Cause you've also written about this a lot. Yeah. I'm actually trying to...
I think this is really nebulous, and this is something that I do think... That's what, I'm working on a piece right now- Mm-hmm... um, about basically AI rights after death for regular people. Um- Yeah...
of like there are these services that can turn, you can turn your loved one into like a chatbot and keep- Yeah... talking with them after. And it's like, well, what if you don't want that?
Like, kind of like a digital do not resuscitate type of thing. This is like the next stage of like the Tupac like hologram conversation. Yeah. Mm-hmm. And so, and it, but interesting, it's like
it's for the loved ones who've left, been left behind. Like, I don't know. I, I also think a lot- Mm-hmm... about the ways that technology is used to avoid uncomfortable feelings.
Like, it, that's what dating apps have done to dating- Yeah... where it's like, uh, you can, and then- De-risk social life. Yeah.
And now it's like, okay, if you, I'm normalizing this, then we're like what is that doing to grieving? Mm-hmm. Like, I just don't think it's gonna be healthy.
But basically to be like, I don't want this to happen, and you're a regular person, it's, there are no laws, um- Mm... to enforce that unless you are a personality or performer. And the definition of that is like
someone who either, you know, makes their living from like singing, dancing, entertaining, da, da, da, or like- This is like a legal definition? Yes. Yeah. Yeah.
And so I, so I, I forget the exact thing, but basically it's-A definition that I think is outdated because- Mm-hmm...
like, what does, like, like, like you and I, I think it's safe to say, are, like, not traditional celebrities, but- Yeah... like, we are perso- we are, I would say, personalities in our own- We're creating this thing...
communities. Yeah. These things for distribution online. Do we qualify to be like, "Hey, for that reason, can you not..." And like, I don't, ba- basi- I, and like, what counts as, like, enough followers- Mm...
or whatever. So basically, I, the idea of what makes a creator, I don't know, because I also feel like, um, right now the kind of big creators are not really that zeitgeisty anymore. Yeah.
And people are way more interested in their... Like, they like feeling like a creator is theirs.
They like a kind of smaller creator, um, who maybe they see themself in their, their job or their body type or just their lifestyle. Yeah.
And, and it's a much more personal, smaller relationship, and like, that's still a creator. Um, and so- Listen, so wait, let me- Yeah... let me share my definition quick. Yeah.
I think, I, I, this is constantly changing, but right now- Mm-hmm... I think it's like at the most core, highest level, this is too umbrella, it's like- Mm...
somebody who is a creator rather than a, a lurker, somebody who's contributing- Mm, mm, mm, mm... to the conversation online in some way, a participant in the internet. But- Yeah...
I think more accurately, still maybe a little too umbrella, but more accurately, it's like somebody who is creating actively, but like with the intent of building, of reaching people beyond their family and friends, right?
Yes, yeah. So you're not just like private Instagram photos for, you know, here's what I'm up to, I'm at the beach. Mm-hmm.
It's like I'm trying to reach an audience or I'm trying to monetize, but then that monetization, I think, is so broad from like, uh, ad revenue brand deals- Yeah...
to like I'm just trying to raise my profile so I can get a better job, and that's- Yeah... also monetization. Um- Mm-hmm... so I think, I mean, to your conversation about like where does it- Mm-hmm...
where does the border lie, I feel like it's like anybody who is making connect- who, anybody who other people have a parasocial relationship with- Yeah... no matter how few, even if you just have- Yeah...
one of those, right? Mm-hmm. Which goes back to what I was saying with the newsletter, where it's like you're sending it one to many. Yeah.
And so, like, if you're a creator it means you're creating content one to many- Yeah... that's meant to reach people beyond people you know in real life, right? Yeah, yeah. No, I agree.
I think if you're, if you're opening up Instagram and posting with an awareness of an audience, then you're c- then that is posting as a creator. Um,
and I think about it 'cause I remember like growing up I was always like, "I wanna be a writer. When can I call myself a writer?" Same. And the thinking was always like if you write, you're a writer. Mm-hmm.
And it's like, well if you make a reel, are you a creator? Maybe. Mm. Like I said, that, but that like, I, it's hard because also that's just like so not the same level of respected. Um- Mm-hmm...
and- Well, it's, I think then it's like the, this goes back to like the, the money difference.
It's like, maybe you're a creator, but maybe what a, what a creator is in this way that like we're kind of talking about is like a media business. And creator- Mm...
a creator is just a type of media business that's like personal brand driven. Like- Yeah... MrBeast, obviously like- Mm-hmm... huge version of that. But like, so is, I don't know, like Nolita Dirtbag in a way. Yeah.
Right? Mm-hmm. I dunno. Yeah. I think it's pretty vague and I think it's changing, but I think it's kinda like if you're doing the work, because it is work- Mm-hmm...
um, then yeah, like you can call yourself that, uh, even though like I think I would, you know... It, I think it, you can feel bashful about it the way I probably- [laughs]... used to feel- Yeah...
bashful about being like, "Yeah, I'm a writer." But like I do have the backing now of like being able to say I get paid for it, but I don't think you...
Yeah, like you said, I don't think you have to monetize in that way. I think if you have an audience who you are creating content for- Mm-hmm... then you are- Yeah... creating. The benefits are, are bigger.
Um, real quick, I do wanna touch on embedded stats. We talked about roughly- Yeah... you said you're around- Mm-hmm... 35K. Um, I guess the other stats would be open rate, click rate, um- Yeah...
and then p- like percentage of subscribers who are p- Yeah... paying for you. Yeah, uh-huh. Okay, so the open rate, the, the bigger the, um, free subscribers are, you know, the open rate gets a little...
Like once we t- tipped over- The percentage goes down... 30,000, yeah, the percentage went down. So it used to be in the f- like 42% open rate, now I'd say it's like 36% open rate.
I was looking before- Well, which is also like email-wide is happening- Yeah... right now- Uh-huh... I understand, right? Yeah. Yeah. Okay, I would say the views range between 20K...
Yeah, they're in like the, they're in the 20Ks, 25, um, and then we will occasionally have something that like takes off and just gets like a ton. Um- Mm-hmm... like- The productivity monitoring one, I believe, right?
Yeah, that one did well. Um, right now I'm just... Yeah, it's, it's, it, it falls anywhere between 20 to 30K views. Um, and like a- Mm-hmm. Pretty good... it is always falling around the 35 open rate.
And I mean, there are always some flops. Um- Mm. So, um, what about like click rate? Maybe like on one of the Sunday link roundup issue, 'cause it- Let's see. Yeah...
your other, your other essays aren't necessarily about clicking. Um, but yeah- Yeah... the link roundups. So my most recent Sunday Scroll had a 61% open rate. Um, but yeah, so the, this is it. It has...
I'm always like, who is, how is this working out? Because it has like 316 opens, but then 683 total views. I don't know what that means. But basically the, um, the link click rate is 18%. Oh.
Um- That's pretty good, yeah. It's pretty good, yeah. It's not like the numbers aren't huge, but I also like, it, the, it's a smaller pool of people, and I don't do a ton of links because- Yeah...
I, I thought I would have a lot more, and it turns out I like actually am not- No, you're less online these days, right? I know. I literally was like Goddammit, like I need to be like...
So y- but I, you know, I just will go through my history. I'll go through my group chat. I'll try to like make, I wanna make it super organic, like what- Mm-hmm...
are me and my friends talking about, what's getting shared, um- Today in Tab Sky... what did I actually read? Yeah. Mm-hmm. And so, um, and so yeah, it'll vary. And then I'll always do like some self-promotion.
Notably I did just notice in that link roundup absolutely none of the links were [laughs] anything I wrote, but it was like good 'cause they're- All ads... they're, they're linking on the stuff I recommend, like- Yeah...
the stories from GQ, and I, I didn't write that. But it was like- Mm... well, then I was jealous I hadn't written. Um-Okay, wait Yeah, so One, one, one, one more question about stats quick. Mm-hmm.
Uh, how has the audience grown? You said it's been, like, 10,000 free subscribers- Yeah... a year basically. Mm-hmm.
Is that, like, do people come, like, through, you know, when you write for GQ or whatever they look up your name? Is it, like, the My Internet? 'Cause I know the My Internet is always free. Yeah.
Is it, like, people- It's honestly, there will be... And I would say earlier on there were more spikes. Like, someone I have to shout out is Rachel Carton who does Link in Bio- Mm. The GOAT...
did really early on just put randomly in one of her newsletters, like, "I really like this newsletter Embedded," and that's- Mm...
probably, like, sort of, um, percentage wise compared to what we already had, like, our biggest spike. And then from then on it would be just, like, someone genuinely recommending it. Um- Mm. Now,
uh, I do think it just ki- ob- like, just every piece either it gets shared or, like, yeah, it's a creator who I'm interview- interviewing shares or the My Internet person. Mm-hmm.
It just, I would say mostly it comes from collecting people along the way, but when I do write something, when I write something in the Atlantic, uh, it's in my bio, and I'll notice that it'll get a few people.
But it's funny 'cause people are not... I remember one time I was, The Washington Post wanted to quote me about something, and, like, they linked to Embedded, and I remember being like, "Oh, like, it's in the piece.
It's a link." And I would say, like, two, maybe two- [laughs]... subscribers.
And so it's just, like, it, it, I think it really comes from, like, I think broad endorsements on, like, from, like, leg- It's like it' it, people kinda glaze over it. I think it's- Mm...
really if someone who they follow, who they like, or a friend forwards it to them, um, they'll do it. Because I just not- it just is little by little a little, a handful every time something goes out, um- Yeah...
and that's how it grows.
And for paid, for a while I was doing something they would tell you not to do, which was I'd just paywall the interviews because I was being, like, precious about my precious little essays and I wanted- Yeah...
as many people to read them as possible, but that was what people liked.
And you either are interested in an interview or you're not, and also, you know, the person you're interviewing is less inclined to share it if it's paywalled. It was not a good strategy. Yeah.
So this year starting at the end of last year I just, I switched it. I, I have one free essay a month. The rest are paywalled, and I had to just, like, get over it.
And then un-paywalling the interviews is great because then they, they share it and people can read it and you get- Yeah. Yeah, it was like, I was like for two years- Good strategy... making a bad business decision.
[laughs] And really our paid subscribers were not growing when that was the case, because at the time I was employed full time at places. Mm-hmm. And so it was just what mattered to me more was, like, the bigger number.
Um- Yeah... but then when now I'm just way more concerned or, you know, not conc- Gonna make a living... like, I'm way more- Sustainable income... in- interested in, like, paid subscribers- Mm...
and making it sustainable rather than... 'Cause once you do hit a certain number, you're just y- it's not possible that over 30,000 people are all exactly really dedicated to Embedded.
You're getting a lot more, like, uh, surface people. Yeah. Not surface people. [laughs] But like- As opposed to mole people. [laughs] Mole people, yeah.
[laughs] You're just getting people who are like, "Oh, sure, I'll subscribe because I see-" Yeah, yeah, yeah. "... that it's a popular newsletter."
It's, it's what I'm saying is not meant to be a diss on any, like, recent followers. It's more that, like, I notice this happens to big creators where, like, someone like Charli D'Amelio who has- Mm-hmm... 100K.
No, my God, that's so low. Uh, she has 100 million, um- Yeah. Well, how your en-... followers on- How your engagement rate goes down as you grow your- Yeah, her engagement rate- Yeah...
is really poor because I think some people just start following because they've heard about her and are like, "Sure, I'll follow." Um, I don't, I'm not saying we're Charli D'Amelio. [laughs] Yeah.
But it is, I do think you reach a certain level where it's just like, um- That's, that's the headline for this newsletter. Yeah, yeah. The Charli D'Amelio of, of Substack. [laughs] Of, of Substack.
Um, no, yeah, it's more that, like, basically, basically what I think I've learned is, like, I, it do- it does read as a disservice to, like, just think about growing numbers, and now I'd rather the people who are kind enough to, like, pay or the people who are kind enough to be really engaged readers who don't pay, who exist and are great, like- Mm...
I wanna write for them. And I'm glad to have other people there. Um, and, but, you know, it's just, it's just, I... That's almost... You just have to pick. You need to focus your efforts a little bit. It's hard. Yeah.
I, I'm reading Taylor Lorenz's book right now, Extremely On- Mm-hmm...
Extremely Online, and she was talking about how, like, blogger, like, back, you know, 25 years a, a quarter century ago blogging started, and, um, and then, like, people were like, "Oh, nobody was gonna wanna read that.
It's like y- it's not, not, not edited enough," et cetera. Mm. People start reading blogs. Um, actually it turns out people do like even if, even if it is lower quality and more colloquial- Yeah... whatever.
10 years later they start doing, you know, the bloggers start getting absorbed back into, like, traditional media- Mm... or, like, new media institutions. Um- Yeah...
and then, you know, seven, eight years later then it's newsletters, and I feel like we're having this conversation again. Um- Mm-hmm...
and then, like, newsletter writers, like, I mean, not that you, you were not a newsletter writer first, but you- Mm-hmm... Ryan Broderick, uh, Jack Raines of Young Money are all newsletter writers writing for- Mm-hmm...
Sherwood, right? And I- Yeah... I'm like, is it just this... So there's two kinda things in here.
Is it just, like, this endless cycle and, like, panic over, like, creators are the new journalists, journal- like, the journalist creators- Yeah... model?
Like, I, I have a feeling that maybe it's just, like, this, like, wave of, you know, institutional people leave, people get laid off, et cetera. Mm.
Um, maybe the more interesting question within this, though, is about media literacy, and I feel like- Mm-hmm... people that me- like, there's less trust in institutions and, like- Yeah...
big news outlets than ever, um, and people are going more to indie creators and creator journalists. Mm-hmm. But I'm, I'm, I'm not sure whether or not that actually represents, like,
a increase in media literacy and, like, skepticism and, like, you know- Mm-hmm...
and a- analyzing a bit what you're, what you're consuming by going to the individual, or is it just, like, moving that trust in the institution to the individuals? I don't know. Yeah.
I think it's- Is me- what, what media literacy, what's the state of it? [laughs] I think it's the same reason why I would say that influencers are falling out of favor.
I do think there is this inherent skepticism of these institutions, which are people with enough power that you then... Or that, that beh- have... It's hard to trust them because- Yeah...
um, an influencerWho gets tons of followers and suddenly gets, like, leveled up. It's not coming at you as a relatable person. They're, like, kind of in a new tier.
You don't know if you can trust the recommendation because now they're kind of just a- And what are the motivations? Yeah, they're kinda just a billboard now. Mm-hmm. Um, same I think with
ins- There are flaws and biases within institutions. I've, like- They're just people at the end of the day. Yeah. Or it's like...
And, you know, and there's, there's a lot of stuff behind the scenes that you also can't talk about if there's, like, an issue with why this piece went out weird- Mm-hmm... the way it did, or, like, why this, um...
And so bas- Like, you- there's just an honesty that can't happen 'cause you're protecting, like- Mm... there's a, like, you're protecting decisions. This isn't anything in particular. L- like, um- Yeah...
like, it, it just... I just think you have to be... There's an awareness that, uh, you don't know what's... I think, I think the black box of what's- Yeah... happening- Mm...
behind the article, people can fill in with their own skepticism. Yeah. And so I think it's like... 'Cause, you know, there are some times where I'm like, you know,
The New York Times, like, publishes one opinion, and they publish the other. And people are like, "So, what is it?" And, like, that's- Yeah... a comprehension issue. Like, it's a... They... It's not their job.
Like, they are constantly- Well, and I'm constantly, like, checking, like, the headl- like, what are the head... They change the headlines, like, four times a day. Yes, yes. Yeah.
I'm checking the app just to monitor that now. Um- Not even to read the article, but just to monitor- Yeah... how they're reframing. Or, oh, like, actually, this is a good example. It's, like, in The Cut.
The Cut published something, an article from someone where it was like, "Motherhood didn't change me at all." Mm. And then they published a thing that was like, "Motherhood changed me."
And all the comments on that one were like, "What? You just said it didn't change you." [laughs] And that I think is an effect of, like, pr- like, a parasocial, like, influence. Yeah.
It's like, well, that's because The Cut is not a singular person. It is an outlet that publishes many- Mm. Yeah... um, many opinions. Like, there, there- That's the difference between- Yeah...
an institution and a creator... and, but I think when you're, when you're raised to... 'Cause that's also another thing. I will even have when I write something, uh, like, Millennial Pause.
I w- like, I would be like, "People are making fun of millennials online." And then someone... All the replies are like, "Why are you making fun of millennials?" And it's like, no. There's...
I am reporting on something that's happening from the outside. But there's this, I think from growing up with creators and getting news that way, it's very, like, they think... They're like, "It's you doing this." Yeah.
"You are the face." Mm. That's interesting. Um, one more question. Yeah. Uh, do you have any advice for people who write newsletters given that you've been doing this for years both for institutions- Yeah...
and yourself? Yeah. I would say, like, I mean, like, it, it is, like... 'Cause it... I, like I even said, I started in media, like, 10 years ago, and I feel like I spent the first five years of my time in media feeling
like I wanted better for myself just in... or feeling really stuck. I got... Like, I'm really grateful for what I got in... how I got into media, and I had a lot of, like, fun. But then it was really hard to grow.
Um, and I think I was annoyed because I was like, had so much noise around me from other people that... Not, not because I was like...
I wasn't annoyed that I wasn't, like, a staff writer at The New York Times because I thought my work was, like, warranted that.
But I was, like, annoyed at myself for not having gotten there yet, um, and not allowing myself, like, the fact that you need time. Um, and- Mm. Crucial ingredient. Yeah.
And I would say, like, you just f- Now being able to look back on 10 years, it was, like, the slow grind of all those things. And you...
I can point to, like, meeting that person or writing that thing or answering that DM that then led me to this. It's like the, the ripple effect that happens. And, um, of, like, everything I...
Everything is connected, and everything I have now is built on, on that just because, like, that is the inciting incident for some relationship or whatever. Um- Yeah...
but then also specifically newsletter is what I mentioned earlier, like consistency. Like I said, like, our followers don't come because of some, like, big thing.
It, it comes because, like, for the most part, every three... or three days a week or four if you are a paid subscriber, you're getting the same thing. Um, and every time you get, like, maybe...
I w- it would start with, like, maybe three free subscribers. Mm. Maybe then you get 10. There'd be a one that blows up. It's like you, you ha- Like, and you just- One foot in front of the other. Yeah.
And, and you have to keep doing it. And, uh, I think the hardest part is the beginning when you're not gonna get the numbers you want, um, and just trusting that you have the...
Yeah, one foot in front of the other, just, like, you have to keep coming back and doing it because, like, I would... It's pretty rare that you're gonna start a newsletter and suddenly become, like, a superstar.
It's, like, pretty rare that you're gonna start a- It's kind of the, the opposite of what Spotify does. It's pretty rare that you're gonna start a newsletter- Yeah... and even over time become a superstar. Yeah.
Like, that can't be why you're getting into it because the odds are like- Charlie D'Amelio. [laughs] Yeah, yeah. [laughs] It's just like...
It's like I said, like, I feel like we're in a pretty good place, but it's nowhere near my full-time income. Yeah. So it's just, like, um... But what it is valuable, it has been in sort of more,
um, you know, it, it has risen the profile or whatever of my work. And, um- Yeah. Brought you more-... and gotten me a lot of opportunities, and also I think makes my work better because I'm forced to write about...
I mean, I'm forced to write every week. It w- it can never get rusty. [laughs] Yeah. No, that's... I mean, I think it's, like, the simple but best advice. Mm. Um, anyways, where should people find you?
[laughs] Um, yeah, sorry. I was just taking a sip of seltzer. Um, yeah, so Embedded on Substack, uh, three times a week or four if you feel like paying. And then I am Katherine Fiona, Katherine with a K and a Y,
um, uh, across all other social media, Instagram, Twitter, TikTok. I don't... Twitter's kind of a wasteland, but, uh, Instagram is probably- More active on TikTok these days, you are. I am.
Every so often I'll brave it, but it is so scary. Mm. It's the beast's place. Like twice a month. Yeah. Yeah, yeah. Um, yeah. It's the... But I would say Instagram is the place to go if you want, like, real updates.
Yeah. But I would say, actually, no, sorry. I would... Embedded is the place to go. [laughs] See? That's why I'm not good at this. There we go. Yeah. Yeah. [laughs] Cool.
Uh, well, this has been the Creator Spotlight podcast. Kate Lindsey has been our guest. Uh, I have been Francis Zear, and I will be Francis Zear next week. And I'll see you, [laughs] see you then.
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