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That's become more than a hobby. It's become a passion. And when you have something you're passionate about and that you love, it shows.

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A lot of your success is due to the fact that you do have a really strong understanding of the systems. That is what has separated me from my community. And they think that if they make it, people will come.

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Couldn't be further from the truth. Yes, exactly. You have to change your way of thinking. I read one headline that this was a six-figure business. So that was interesting because...

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Welcome back to the Creator Spotlight podcast. My name is Francis Zier, and today we're speaking with Quynh Nguyen. Quynh makes paper flowers. She also makes courses teaching people how to make paper flowers.

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She also makes courses teaching people how to build businesses making paper flowers.

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She started out about a dozen years ago, uh, she was an event planner, and she was asked to make paper flowers for a friend's wedding, and this turned into her finding that the educational content on YouTube wasn't really up to snuff, so she started making educational content.

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She built an Instagram following, and now it is this thriving digital, physical, digital real world, however you wanna put it, business. It's a good conversation. Hope you enjoy.

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So I wanna make sure before we get started, just to contextualize, uh, for the listeners, that I'm understanding the breadth of your business and all the arms and touch points that make it up. So what...

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I found this on one of your LinkedIn posts, so I'm... It was a few months ago. I'm assuming it's thorough. So there's Pink & Posie, which is your paper flower studio for bespoke botanical art. There's the Posie- Yes...

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Box, which is a curated subscription and tutorial platform. Uh, there's the Paper Talk podcast, which is conversations on art and entrepreneurship. You have a couple co-hosts there.

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Uh, there is The New Art of Paper Flowers, which is your first book, recently published. Mm-hmm. And then there is Paper to Profits, the mastermind, which is a six-week business course for creatives.

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And I think you have a few other things in the works that we'll get to later, but those five things are what make it up right now. Yes. Okay.

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And hopefully we'll be able to add more throughout the year, this year and next year. [laughs] And all the years to come. Well, we'll get into that. [laughs] We'll get into that a little later.

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Um, but I do want to start with, with marketing. Um, so I understand that you are somebody who, you, you never really thought of yourself as an artist until you started making paper flowers a little over 10 years ago.

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You were always a really good, like, kind of planning person. You, you organized events, very organized, very structured like that.

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And then you start, you kind of start thinking of yourself as an artist once you start making paper flowers.

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Um, and to skip ahead in the journey a little bit, you, you do that, then you start doing it online and selling digital products, et cetera.

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And now one of the things you do is this mastermind where I understand a lot of what you're teaching in that is not necessarily making the paper flowers, but is, is marketing, and you're teaching other creatives how to build their business and how to market.

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So with that as context, I would love if you could share maybe the three most important marketing princils- principles that you try to teach students in your mastermind.

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[lips smack] One thing as being an artist, a creator, you work alone a lot. Mm. And one thing we always push our student is go and network. Go and talk to someone. Go and get a coffee.

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Go and meet your clients because you never know who they know that might be interested in your work, and your reach is way further than you can possibly think. Mm-hmm.

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And to be able to build that foundation, to make sure that what you are creating fits, aligns with what you are inside and what you present outside because the more you align with what you are, the better you can market yourself- Mm...

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and be true to your audience, and that's where you connect with your clients, your customers, your community. So you're saying that, like, the first...

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this is the first thing you teach really, or, like, core to what you teach is about more, like... It sounds like you're saying understand what your value is that you offer to people. Yes.

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Understand, like, the, like, what, what your product is, who you are, and you understand that better by networking with people and by figuring out what you have and what you don't have in, in relation to other people that are kind of your peers.

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Yes. And it will evolve over time because what you like and what you see around the world, because as an artist, you're constantly absorbing what the world is offering to yourself. Mm-hmm.

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And by able to understand that, to be able to talk to it, and talking to it is like talking to nature, walking through nature, taking apart the flowers, taking apart the leaves, that's where you really start understanding who you are because you're gonna be app- everyone will approach a rose many different ways.

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Yeah. And what they produce will be different every single way.

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And I encourage people to teach what they're making because it's so important because the more that you teach, the more you have to understand how to tell it to people, the step-by-step. Writing the book was a huge...

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I, I understood how to teach, but- Mm... when you're teaching someone, you actually can show it to them. You can look in their eyes and s- say, "Do you understand this? Can I clarify this?

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Can I ch- show you in a, a different way how to do it? Can I tell you a different way besides showing it?" But with a book, you have to be so finite and be able to have such a broad way to explain a step. Mm-hmm.

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So one of the steps is, like, how do you cup a petal? A person that has never done a paper flower will not know what the word cup means because cup means many different things to many different people. [laughs] Yeah.

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And so to be able to, like, "Okay, you need to be able to put your fingers a certain way and to be able to, like, push in the paper versus pushing out, and what does that mean?"

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And writing the book was really interesting because when I wrote the book, the first, um, tutorial, it was over 3,000 words. Mm. And my editor says, "We cannot do that. You have to cut it by 1,000." I'm like, "1,000?

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How can I show people the artistic way that I do a flower by doing that?"And I think when you start understanding your audience and being able to understand the words that comes out of your mouth, the way that you present yourself- Mm-hmm...

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that's when you can really dial in in what you can offer. Yeah. Um, on this topic of education, so your, your s- your kind of journey here starts with you making paper flowers, um,

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for lack of a better word, just in the real world, and you're making these for... You started by making them for, um, I believe a friend's wedding, correct? Yes, that is correct. Yeah.

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So you did that, and then, you know, that business kind of grows. At one point, you make a connection through your network with somebody who works for Nordstrom. You, you decorate a shoot for them.

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That's a big milestone. Um, cutting, like, cutting this pretty short, and we'll get into more of the details later, but, uh, up to now, and now a lot of your business is in education.

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So I'm curious if you remember the first time that you were paid specifically for the educational aspect of this and whether that was an in-person class or something online.

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It actually happened the first year I was out, and one thing I always loved doing is sharing, teaching, just... I used to be a chef. Mm. And so all my friends like, "How do you make this dish?"

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And so I'm just like, "Come on over. I'll show you how to do it."

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And so I think the innate part of me teaching, sharing what I know and love was just a very good foundation, and it was just really easy to share like, "I know how to do this. Let me show you how to do it."

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And that's the philosophy I love to teach to my community. And if anybody DMs me, emails me, and asks me a specific question, it's like, "Here, this is how you do it." Yeah.

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Because my ultimate goal is to have as many people lo- fall in love with paper flowers as much as possible because the more that you share the education and not keep it inside yourself, the more you can share that joy.

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Mm. Because I just can't believe that I've been doing paper flowers for more th- than 10 years. That's has become more than a hobby. It's become a passion. Yeah.

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And when you have something that's p- you're passionate about and that you love, it shows. Your audience will find it, and the joy that you get, you get to share it with people.

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And I return to paper flowers over and over, and I love the fact that it's not just about paper flowers, even though it is, but there is so many different ways to present it, and that's what we teach in Paper to Profit.

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Mm. And interesting that you talked about the Paper to Profit with... We just re- did it, and it was a six weeks course. And then as we were talking to our cohort about it, six week was so short even though- Mm...

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it sped up really, really well, and our... And the people that did join, everyone had the exact same questions.

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And we just did a live this week where we talk to them and say, "Hey, we're doing another mastermind, but we're doing it for six months this time," because we- Six months, wow. Yeah.

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And so now we felt it was so, so fast, and sometime when you're s- doing the speed date, I'm just gonna put that in. Mm. The speed dating, you're just... You don't get to learn everything.

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You get the surface part, and a lot of people walked away with something, and I was so happy to hear that.

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One of our, um, s- members, Lori Everett, she says, "I would be surprised if no one walked out with a knowledge, a tip, an advice they weren't able to use." Mm. And I was like, "Yes, that's exactly what I wanna hear."

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Y- let's talk about the mastermind for a second. Yeah. So I think that you, you, you were talking about this six-week mastermind that you just did, and I think it was your first round of doing it. Um- Yes...

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it's called Paper to Profits, um, it meant for six weeks. There were 24 spots. It cost, um, $750 to, to join.

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Um, so tell me about how this came to be, um, and I guess before that, what, what, what kind of paid education were you doing before?

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I know obviously that the podcast, which has been going for six years, there's education in there. You've made YouTube videos in the past. You've got specific tutorials, um, on your website.

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Um, I wanna get to the mastermind, but first, tell me about, like, the journey of you selling education as a product and making money off of education.

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Like, what, what was the first time you did that, and then how does that ladder up into doing this, this mastermind with, with your colleagues? Sure. So the first year, I ended up teaching right off the bat- Mm...

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because people were like, "Oh, I wanna learn this new medium," because at that time, 10 years ago, there was not a lot of people doing crepe paper. Yeah.

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And I introduced this new type of art medium to my community in Seattle, and people were like, "Yes, I wanna sign up." So we had a dozen people sign up right off the bat, and it was really amazing.

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And that just led- For, for in-person workshops kind of. In-person workshop. Yeah. Yes. And then that was, I believe, in 2016, 2017.

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And then as I started to share more of my work on Instagram, people started reaching out to me on Instagram, on the DM, says, "Hey, I'm in town. Would you like to meet up?" And I was like, "Sure. Why not?"

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And this is how Jesse- Mm... she's an introvert. I'm very much an extrovert, and she was the one that reached out to me and says, "Hey, I'm in Seattle. Can we grab a drink and, like, meet and talk?"

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And so, and then we met. We... It was amazing.

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It was like stars, and it was just like I r- I really loved what she was doing, and we started collaborating together, and that was really unusual for that particular time where people were starting to collaborate.

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And so Jesse and I, and also another friend, Priscilla, she was down in California and happened to be there, and she had also reached out to me and says, "Hey, let's meet up."

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And so we did, and the three of us collaborated together and ended up doing the very first international master class- Mm... a paper flower master class in the world.

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And we actually had people from Australia, from Korea, from Japan, England fly into- Mm...

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our master class, and it was just really amazing to know that in just the first few years of my life, people were like, "I wanna do paper flowers. This is such a-" So, so real quick. Yeah.

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So this, this international audience, uh, that, that's flying in to, to come attend this-How are they finding you? Is this... Do you have a, a, a decent Instagram following at this point?

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Where are these people coming from that they wanna fly in and do this with you? I know. So this is interesting. I probably did not have the amount of Instagram followers I had right now. Mm-hmm.

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I believe I'm over- Which is about 22,000, I believe. Yeah, 22,000. At about that time, I think it was only 2,000 or 3,000.

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And it was just about talking to other people on Instagram, following each other, messaging, 'cause I believe that when you do comment on a post, it's, it's more than, "Oh, that's beautiful." Mm-hmm.

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I always wanna push my students and myself to say at least write one full sentence or at least two full sentence instead of just an adjective or emojis.

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Sometime I know you have to because you've, you're not in the brain space. Because- Mm-hmm...

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I feel like when you do social media, you have to be in the right brain space to be there, to be commenting on each other posts. 'Cause the more that you engage, the more friendship and development that you can have.

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And I think at that time, that was what I was doing. I was r- trying really, really hard to find other people that understood what I was doing, because my husband didn't know what I was doing, you know?

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And it was just interesting to see that other people understood the pain, um, the pain points of- Hmm... why does crepe paper kept bleeding, and why did the sun kept shining on it and fade so fast? How did we stop that?

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And so those are the type of conversation that we were having. And then with the three of us, we built this program. It was a four-day program. Hmm.

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And most people, when they do start paper flowers, it's because of a special event, mainly a wedding. Yeah. So we did a wedding focus where we pulled in world-famous intern- um, event planners. Mm-hmm.

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We had floral designers. We had photographer. Caroline Tran was there. Kelly Lemon was there to photograph everybody, to document this, and we also had Alicia Sweetie, who's also an international- Hmm...

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floral designer too. So being able to pull all these people that I have network over the many years to say, "Hey, we believe in what you're doing. Let us help your community too."

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And we've had everybody on our podcast to talk about it more. Mm-hmm. And that was after the fact, and that was really amazing to see people come together and become... Now those students have books out. Hmm.

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They're well-known. And it's just really, really amazing to see that happen.

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So, so quickly, on the, on the audience, you're s- like, um, something you said there ca- come to ear that, you know, usually when people are interested in this, it's because they have a big event coming up.

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They have a wedding. Um, some kind of implied in there is that it's maybe the people whose, whose wedding it is and, and they wanna make paper flowers. They wanna, as a way of...

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I mean, I, I know f- I know [laughs] I have a wedding coming up. I know that flower's very expensive. Um, tell me more about this audience, um, and, and kind of how it differs among your different products.

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Like, is there a difference in the, the audience that's... Probably the biggest audience is on your Instagram, right?

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So is there a difference in that audience compared to the people who are paying maybe for your, your more individualized, um, prepackaged courses versus people who are paying for the, the mastermind?

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Who are your different audiences, and who are your customers? And how do the audience and customer differ? I'll start with my customers. Mm-hmm.

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So, and I will go through the different stages of my career because it's- Yes, perfect... definitely changing, and what I wanna do is different from what I did at the very beginning.

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So at the very beginning, I did a lot of bespoke pieces where it was mainly for a bride that didn't want the full fresh flowers 'cause they wanted to keep it. And most, mainly- Hmm...

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they were passionate about handcraft. They were passionate about tactile things that would last much longer. And they were environmentally conscious because these flowers, you just wouldn't throw them away.

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You kept them.

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And one of the service I do offer to my clients if they live locally is after your event, if you want me to, I will take your bouquet apart, put it in an arrangement in a vase that maybe you have, or maybe I would want to research and find the perfect vase for you.

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Hmm. Or break it into different pieces, so that way it's spread throughout your home. And one of the interesting thing at the very beginning was the first anniversary, you should know this for next year- [laughs]...

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is, is paper. Yeah. And a lot of husband actually reach out to me to recreate their wife bouquet because they knew- Oh, that's right... how much the flower is so important to them, and flowers are really important.

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And I also develop, um, with other floral designers on creating that relationship. So the bride always have that one flower that, that if you could have all the flowers, I want this one flower.

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So the, um, floral designer knew that and would take a picture of it and book me a year out and says, "Hey, can you recreate this one flower, deliver it to them, and then put this note card in there?" That's so smart.

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And so that way, not only do they remember it's the anniversary, but it's also saying, "Hey, I also remember, and if you have any other events, let me do the flowers for you." And I thought that was so clever.

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And it was just really great for me to network up with other floral designer because not only are you making paper flowers, but you also have to know how to arrange it. Mm-hmm.

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And so I ended up taking a lot of floral classes on how to do large installations, how to do the centerpieces, how to do bouquets, because there's certain methods that is cross over.

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And so with, along with the in-person workshop and then with COVID happening, I started doing online courses.

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And one of my other passionate thing is I love technology, and I'm always the person that is editing everything, getting all the right equipment to make sure that everyone has the right thing.

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And so it was just a natural transition for me to do filming- Hmm...

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and online courses and doing the audio bits and doing all the transitions and the overlays, and I think it was over the top, but if you look at my videos compared to another person where they take an iPhone, put it on top, which is the natural way that people wanna see it.

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Yeah. It's like, "I wanna see what you're doing." But I also wanted to show you the different angles because you can't always seeEverything top view Wait, also, so real quickly, so you- Yeah...

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so in COVID is when you start doing maybe these courses and, and moving more on the internet as, as people did in COVID. Mm-hmm. Um, so at this point, you've been doing this for about eight years, was it, by 2020?

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By 2020? It was more like four or five years. Oh, okay, only four or five. So- Yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah... so but you've been doing it four or five years kind of in- Yeah... in the real world.

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It's, it's based in- Yep... Seattle. It's, it's all very- Yep... very real world, physical world stuff. Yes. Um, and then this is what I'm really interested in, yeah, where we start- Yeah...

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moving to the digital and how you kind of digitize this business and, and how it grows- Yes... from making these courses, filming these videos, into- Yeah...

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now where the, I, I understand the bulk of the business and the bulk of the revenue comes from content and courses, correct? Y- yes and no. [laughs] At that time, I was still making a lot of paper flowers, too. Mm.

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And I would say for the longest time that was my biggest money maker was just making thousands of flowers for special events.

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And I started contacting with other event, um, designers, and they would hire me months out because it would be these elaborate...

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And it was just really interesting 'cause I, I just pretty much handed them the flowers, and the- Mm... floral designers from the event team would actually design with it.

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And I worked with David Baan over in New York, who does easily six, seven figures events. And he would say, "Hey, I need 10,000 flowers." And I was like, "Okay, when do you need it? What color do you need? What flowers?"

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And I would just make it and s- pack it in a box and send it off to New York. And it turned out it was at a gala for a new museum that opened up in Arizona. Mm. It was for a huge wedding over in Florida.

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So it was just really interesting to see where these flowers could happen and could make. But back to the online, because I wanna talk about COVID. COVID was a huge changer for a- Mm...

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lot of paper artists that wanted to teach. It was a way to reach around the world, to be able to teach someone in Japan, to teach someone in Australia, which a lot...

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There's not that many, um, artists that I was aware of at that time that was doing it. There was a couple of really big one, Jennifer Tran over in Australia. She was one of the first paper flower book.

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Uh, Tiffany Turner is another one. And those are the type of books that was already out there, but there was no online tutorial that people could, like, watch unless- Mm... it was YouTube.

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And there was a lot of Asian ones where there was no voice. Mm. All you had to do was just look at it and figure out, "Okay, how did they do that?" And so nobody's really telling you what to do. Yeah. Exactly. Exactly.

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So this is your innovation that you bring with your videos is, is more you're, you're telling people what to do. It's not just the visual, it's, it's, it's you speaking. Exactly. Yeah, yeah. Yes.

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And then we also had templates, too. And so that was another key component where not only did I give you a PDF template that you could print out and cut, but I also gave you SVG files. Mm.

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SVG files can be used for cutting machines. So the Cricut, the Silhouettes, um, even laser machines. You could use that particular template and feed it to your machine to use it.

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'Cause a lot of our audience is a little bit older- Mm... so they can't really cut with their hands as much. And so that was another way to, like, show them how to do it. Okay, wait, on that, really quick. I did- Yes...

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I, I'm still trying to figure out exactly who your- [laughs]... who your audience is and who your customer is, and what the difference is between them. And ma- like, um, specifically for the digital stuff.

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Like specifically- Yes... who, who, um, who converts from audience to customer for your courses. Yes. Yes, I know.

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I have a lot of different customers, and I think that's why I'm having a hard time dialing in all the different branches. Yeah. So to put it all blank, customers I have are usually brides- Mm... for weddings.

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I have event planners around the world that will hire me for their particular events, be it wedding, be it, um, corporate events, be it galas, things like that. Mm.

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Then I have people that wants flower just for their home as a beautiful piece, and I love that. It's like the, the piece that they want is usually one piece, and you can charge a little bit more because you're- Mm...

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spending a lot more time- Yeah... etching in the particular details. I like to tell my audience, "If you cut my flowers down in half, it would be botanically correct." That is one of the passion.

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Before I became this, I wanted to be a master gardener, and I'm very passionate about plants, about gardening. Yeah.

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And it was just a natural transition to become a paper flower because when you're passionate about something, you wanna show it in, in many different forms.

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And paper flowers just hit that sweet spot for me that was able to combine all these interests that I have. And then my other audience. So those are the people buying my paper flowers. Mm.

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So the people that I am aiming for for teaching is someone that wants to do it as a hobby, but don't know where to start. So they just want a beginner course to learn how to make the rose, the peonies, the ranunculus.

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Those are the, the popular flowers. Yeah. And then we have the people that are like, "Okay, I did it for a ment, my event, my wedding-" Yeah "... my parties, and now I love it and I wanna know more."

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Wait, also, real quick. So you said- Yeah... you were saying that there's the people who come and buy the... You've got courses for specific flowers. I saw these on your website. Yep.

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Those, those, um, are those free, or what's the price on those? So the price ranges because as I, as I get new courses out- Mm-hmm...

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I pretty much, and I pretty much saturate that particular course, I kind of downgrade it down because a lot of people- Mm... already purchased it. So when I downgrade those particular prices.

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So right now, the posy box are $25, which is great because... But they were made years ago, and they were not the technology where I have them right now. So the one that is fresh and out of the box is pretty much $85.

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Mm. But it gives you so much more. Not only do you get step by step for the people that love to read instructions, but you have the visual component of it, too- Mm... where I can show you what it is.

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You can turn off the audio and just visually look at it. You can also hear me talk about it because sometime I'm giving you extra little tips and advice- Yeah... as you're going through certain things.

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So what- I'm also telling you stories. So those are the audience that I want to creep into to say, "I'm offering more than just a video. I'm offering you a storytelling."

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Hey, if you're enjoying this conversation, consider subscribing to the podcast. We release a new episode every Tuesday.All right. Back to the show. You, you mentioned your friend Jessie. Yeah.

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Um, she's one of the co-hosts on, on the podcast Paper Talk, right? Yes. Um, I, I wanna talk about this briefly. So Paper Talk, you've been doing it for six years. There's 174 episodes at the time we record. Yes.

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Um, this is a long time and a lot of episodes. You do it every two weeks. I, I might have misread something, but it looks like the host lineup may have changed at some point.

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Um, tell me what this podcast is to you in terms of why you started it and what it means now. Like, m- I- uh, assuming that maybe why you started it has changed somewhat in the last six years.

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We started the, our podcast during COVID because we felt the need to be able to talk to other people that we weren't able to meet face-to-face anymore.

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And so to be able to hop online, have a great conversation, and share it with other people, because when we were having our in-person meeting, people were like, "Oh my gosh, I wish you could share this conversation with other people," 'cause it was so amazing to be able to pull these great little gems, and I wanted to share that with other people.

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And I knew that... And I was, I was already listening to a ton of podcasts. Mm-hmm. I was like in my head, "I can make this happen."

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I started researching and going down that black hole that you're like, "Okay, these are the different equipments."

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But also, realistically, I, I had to be a budget because I really couldn't afford an expensive mic that I have now. Yeah.

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Because over time, with 174 episode, and I'm the person editing all the, the- The production value has really improved. I listened to the first one- Yes [laughs]... and then the most recent one.

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It's a very notable difference. Wonderful. I'm so happy to hear that, that over time you can actually see it. Oh, yeah.

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And I, I want people to go back to the very beginning because they know that all the time and the value we put in and how our interview quality has increased and how we're able to pull those gems out, and it's been really interesting.

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We're right now prepping... And actually after this, I'm-- we're starting our first recording for episode, um- Of season eight... well, act- season eight for- Yeah... 175, and so I'm really excited about that.

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And we're also interviewing finally Aleene's Tacky Glue. Mm-hmm. And it's been interesting. I've been trying to pursue all the different vendors that I actually use.

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Kai Scissors been on our Carnetech Nika Rossi, Kart Finney, like all these people that provides all these tools and papers, we've actually, actually had them on.

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And the amazing part is because us being able to talk to them face-to-face, they've been able to put our face, our voice, our flowers together in their head- Mm-hmm...

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and they've been able to sponsor all of our different events, which has been really incredible. So wait, this is really interesting. I wanna talk about this for a second.

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I, I think that like a lot of being a creator is, is marketing. I mean, I, I, I think I said this at the beginning, like working as a creator, building your business, getting attention, that is, that is marketing.

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But then also in terms of working with brands, like I, I like to talk about the fact that there's not really such thing as an influencer.

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That word is kind of dated, but like a creator, you know, who I define as somebody who's making digital media as the tip of the spear of their business, growing an audience for it, and monetizing it somehow, influence is something that they can wield, and influence is something they can offer to a brand to, you know, pay...

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Brand pays them to promote their products. And so what I, what, what I'm interested in here is it's like it sounds like you have become this... You, you...

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This podcast has become a really good vector for some of these brands, like crepe paper brands, the glue brand, et cetera.

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Um, is there much other competition or are you sort of like w- in terms of like other podcasts or other, you know, Instagram accounts, whatever it is, other media, digital media out there covering this space, or are you kind of like one of the only vectors for these brands to come in and promote these things?

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I would say I'm not the only one. Mm-hmm. But there are like a couple other people that are doing it, but they don't have the powerhouse that I believe Paper Talk podcast wields. Mm-hmm.

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Because we were there, you know, six years ago, getting all these people, talking- Deep audience trust. Yeah. Mm-hmm.

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Very deep audience trust, and they know that they can trust us because we try to find and be true to ourself because I think that's the really common thing that both Jessie and Sarah and myself bring out is like- Mm-hmm...

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what we say is really what we're doing, and what we're sharing is part of our life. And six years is not a short commitment. It's something that this is long-term, that we will be doing this for a very long time.

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Hopefully, at one point we'll be able to turn this into a passive income where we can- Mm-hmm... bring in ads, but in a very thoughtful way that doesn't sound like an ad.

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And I want that platform to be a platform for other artists to come in and say, "You love flowers? Let me tell you all the different mediums that's- Mm-hmm...

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coming through this," and to be able to talk about the different vendors- Mm-hmm... that creates all these different tools that you have. So on the podcast, um, there's a few different types of episodes.

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There's some that are about making paper flowers, and then there's some that are more about the business of being a creator, and those are the...

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I listened to a few of those 'cause that's what we talked about on this podcast.

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I'm curious, of those episodes that are more about the business and challenges of, of being a creator and having a digital media business, is there any one episode from those 174 on that topic specifically that sticks with you the most, that when I say that you're like, "I learned something really important from that conversation"?

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That is a really good one because there are so many good ones out there. I'm very fortunate because sometimes in my head when, before we record, I'm- Mm...

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specifically talking to Sarah and Jessie about the different things and how we can push things out and what we should be saying in the podcast to m- give valuable tools and tips to everyone.

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But the ones that we do talk about the masterminds, those are the ones that if you're a business person, you should listen to those because those are the different gems that we wanna offer and tell our audience, "This is what you should be doing."

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It's really important for people to understand not only... 'Cause it only, I would say in the past couple years, I finally accepted that I'm an artist.

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I always thought that I was just the person just running the grind, just keep doing it. Mm-hmm.

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And being the more logistic person that wants the numbers, that wants theJust the technical part of it down pat, the artist part was hard to accept because as an immigrant coming to America, your parents want you to be three things: an attorney, a lawyer, a doctor, or a CPA.

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Yeah. And so it was just like, you know, I didn't fit in that category, and it was like finally, I mean, I'm over 50 years old now, and to finally accept that has just been like wow.

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It's very freeing, and it's been really a great accomplishment. Well, I think I, I wanna say, I, I, we touched about the, touched on this a little bit at the beginning, but I think that really is...

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I, I like to k- to talk about the creator entrepreneur spectrum, where success in the creator economy, like there's people on one side who really come from some purely creative discipline, could be something like journalism, could be, you know, they could be a musician, but something where usually the creative output is what's prized, and there's...

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You don't always have to be thinking about the business side and monetizing it so much. Traditional journalism, you've got people in a newspaper, say, who, who worry about that.

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And then you have people who come from the more business side.

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Maybe they are, like, a marketer or, like, the, an ex-startup founder or something, and they find a way to, um, to, to really meld the creative aspect and the business aspect, the marketing aspect.

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As I've said, I think the creator economy is all about marketing.

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And so for, for you, it's, it's very clear that you kind of initially come from more of that business side and really understanding the logistics and the marketing and, and kind of how to build the systems, right?

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And then the, the, the paper flowers are kind of your, your way in and your creative output, that then doing those also gives rise to all these other creative outputs, of making videos, uh, making a podcast, et cetera, uh, but the paper flowers are kind of your entree.

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Um, I don't know. So I j- I don't know if there's a question [laughs] there. [laughs] But I, but I think that's really interesting.

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I think, like, that is kind of how I'm seeing your, your story and your, your now, like, your digital media creator career. Um, it, it seems to me that you are...

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A, a lot of your success is due to the fact that you do have a really strong understanding of the systems and, and of the finance aspect of it, [laughs] 'cause that's what, that's what you know. Yes, yes, very much true.

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Mm-hmm. I, I think that is what has separated me from my community of people that are rising up. They're so focused on creating this, and they think that if they make it, people will come. Yeah.

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But in today world- Couldn't be further from the truth. Yes, exactly, and I'm constantly pushing us, is you have to change your way of thinking. Mm. You have to be able to find your audience.

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First, you have to find who you are- Yeah... because people like you because of who you are. And as you grow, share it- Mm...

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because you'll be able to grab more people, and they'll u- start understanding why you change over time.

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And it's so important to be able to find that dot, and with you in the middle, and be able to grow that circle further and further out. Mm-hmm. Um, I do wanna ask what hasn't worked over the years.

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For example, I looked at your YouTube channel. You haven't posted there since 2020. I think you first posted, uh- Yes... 2018 or so. You've got one point th- 1.83 thousand subscribers there.

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Um, I obviously know YouTube is tough. We're, we're, we're growing our audience and have been for a while. Also, your Twitter, no posts since 2020. So- Yeah...

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it's clear that you've found that the, these courses, these more higher ticket courses work really well for you, um, and Instagram continues to work well for you. Again, you've got 22,000 people there.

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Um, but tell me what hasn't worked, what things you've tried in terms of, like, going out there to build an audience and grow the business specifically. What has not worked besides YouTube and Twitter?

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I would say what hasn't worked for me, or my attention has pulled to something different- Mm-hmm... was the post box subscription. Hmm. It was... I felt like I was on a hamster wheel, just going over.

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As soon as we were done filming something and editing, we're already thinking about the next one, and I just didn't have any room for creativity at all. Yeah. And it was just like there was so much to do in preparation.

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Not only did I have to source the materials, pack them, put out the templates, put out the, all the different technical things, and it was just

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so overwhelming, and it was just I didn't have room for the creativity of me being able to make. And I started questioning myself, "Am I still in love with paper flowers?" [laughs] "What am I doing?"

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And so I really had to put a stop to that and really pull back and says, "You know what? You're trying to create a name for yourself.

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Let's go back to where you started and find the love that you had before you move on and start pushing things out." And I started pulling back 'cause I thought YouTube was the way, and I, I do wanna go back to YouTube.

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And that's something that I started putting the layouts, putting the videos together, and I just...

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It's sitting there waiting for me to edit, but I also wanna be able to teach at the same time, and I love that I get to go around the world. Like, my first book signing was actually in Tokyo. Oh, wow.

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Like, how amazing is that? And so right now my publisher is trying... I'm heading to South Korea and- Oh... also to Taipei, and I was like, "Oh, what if I do a book signing there?"

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And so it's just been really wonderful to create these opportunities to actually find people that loves to make paper flowers and to say, "Hey, this is so amazing." Yeah.

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"I get to meet you finally," because we've only chatted on DMs- Do you-... on Instagram... how, um, rough percentage breakdowns maybe of where your audience is.

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It sounds like, like, if, if your first book signing was in, was in Tokyo, sounds like you have a sizable audience in Tokyo or in Japan- Mm-hmm... more broadly. Um, obviously you're Seattle-based.

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I don't know if it's, if it's majority US, whatever. Uh, do you have any picture of, like, the b- the just rough percentage breakdowns of where your audience is in the world? Yes.

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So I've been actually looking at that very, very carefully- Mm... because one of the failed things that I did was I tried to do a workshop on the East Coast- Mm...

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in, um, it's north of New York in a very small remote town. Mm. And it was just interesting. I found that I didn't have a reach there. Yeah.

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We didn't meet our numbers to actually, for me to be, worth it for me to fly from Seattle to New York to do it. So that was a fail one.

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I was like, "Oh, my gosh, I don't have a reach in the East Coast," so I'm changing it.And so that was the interesting part. I have a very strong foothold in Washington, um, specifically the- Yeah...

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west side, not so much the Eastern Washington because it's a different climate. Well, there's not so many people out there anyways. Yeah, true. [laughs] And then Portland was really wonderful. Mm.

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I got to do a book signing and a talk at the Powell's bookstore, which was like- One of my favorite bookstores in the world. Oh, mine too. [laughs] Amazing.

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It was just really crazy to see, like 50 people came out and saw me to hear me talk about paper flowers. So that was super exciting. I've just did a, like a sold-out workshop down in California. Mm.

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So my foothold is very, very strong on the West Coast, but that makes sense. And then I also have some foothold in the Midwest.

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I have some family in Texas, so I'm constantly going there all the time, so I did a, a book signing and a workshop over in Waco, Texas.

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And then one of the cr- crazy thing, I never thought this would happen, was I actually had a collaboration in getting a beer.

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[laughs] So my first beer ever is called Paper Flowers, and now this is so incredible- Was this, like with a local brewery in Seattle or what? Actually in, down in P- um, the Hood River. Okay. Yeah, yeah. Yes. DeSchutes?

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Was that... No. Uh, DeSchutes is one of them- Yeah... but this one is called Kings & Daughters. Oh, okay. Cool. So really amazing. Yeah. They're actually getting ready to do a brick-and-mortar opening, um- Mm...

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this, this fall. That's so cool. And the... So I'm actually coming out with my second beer. [laughs] So this is so crazy. Who knew? I mean- Mm... you have to drink, and why- Yeah... not have a little bit of fun?

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One must. And so... Yes. [laughs] Anyways. And so my second beer is called Paper Flower, uh, P- Paper Petals. Mm. And this is actually gonna be in North Carolina with 12 Bones- Mm... which I'm so excited.

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So I am trying to s- solve that problem, like, how can I reach out to the East Coast? And I do have- Yeah... a couple other things in the work.

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Um, Snow Farm up in Massachusetts, I'm doing a, a five-day workshop up there next spring in May on how to do a f- a f- pretty much a floral centerpiece from- Mm... the very beginning.

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So I'm trying to do workshops that are more thoughtful and more meaningful that will open that door for me, which I'm really, really excited- Mm... to make happen. That's awesome.

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And then not only that, I'm also getting a wine that's coming out. And so [laughs] this has been really, really an amazing thing that I never thought.

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So these are different ways that we can- How did the wi- how did these come about? How did these beers and these wines come about?

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Is this just, like people who followed you on Instagram, people who've taken your courses, people who saw your flowers somewhere in, in the, in the Pacific Northwest maybe for the, for the, for the Hood River one? Yes.

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How did these come about? Um, all the above. Yeah. [laughs] Okay. They all follow me. [laughs] And I think one, the biggest thing that happened to me was last year I got to be on CBS Sunday Morning- Mm. Mm...

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Show, and that opened a lot of new doors for me. That was really, really incredible. What specifically happened in the wake of that? So in the wake of that, the one with 12 Bones North Carolina, they, she actually- Mm...

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saw the episode- Mm... and then she just suddenly fell in love with paper flowers and came to my workshop last summer to do garden roses. Mm.

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And from there we developed our friendship, and she actually flew out again with her sister down to California to meet up with me. And so we started talking and she's like...

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And she saw that I had a beer for my, um, book release, and she's like, "Do you want one with my brewery?" And I was like, "Yes, let's make it happen." [laughs] That's so funny.

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And so we're coming out, I believe it's gonna be a peach hazy IPA, which is gonna be super amazing. I can't wait for the IPA. And I think... Right? Me too. [laughs] So super fun.

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And then the wine is actually with the, the winery, Address Winery- Mm... was actually the place where I did my book release party, which- Oh, nice... over 100 people came. Wow.

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And so it was really an amazing thing, a very thought- sh- it was a thoughtful gift. She pretty much, like, said, "Would you like a wine? And let's collaborate together and make this happen." Yeah.

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And so I'm getting 10 cases of it, which is incredible. [laughs] That's so sick. Um, okay, one thing I, I still wanna, I still wanna nail down here is the rough percentage breakdown of your revenue.

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And I know you said it, it fluctuates in last year, the, the book, the book changed things up. Yes.

250
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But maybe let's say, like, I don't know, on average in, in your best years or, or what's forecasted for this year, which- Mm-hmm... whatever makes sense more. Um- Yeah...

251
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it, like, I'm just looking to get a picture of, like, how your, the, your overall revenue pie breaks down. So, like, what percentage- Yeah... is courses? What percentage is book sales? What percentage- Yeah...

252
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is, is, um, is physical flowers- Yeah... events? How does this all- Yes... break down into 100%? Okay. So that's funny because my husband just asked me, like, "Where are you at?" [laughs] And I was like, "Oh, okay."

253
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So I'm actually at the... Right now it's in August. I'm already at 65,000, almost 65,000 right now- Nice... which is pretty good, but it's a lot of work. So- [laughs] Yeah... it's not only about me making paper flowers.

254
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That was a huge component, but especially with the hotels and a lot of orders that I got in the way this year. Mm-hmm. But also the workshops that I did this wh- whole year trying to push my paper flowers. And

255
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I would say the workshop has been a huge component and made me fall in love with teaching again in person, 'cause I hadn't had that chance again, uh, before, since COVID, to actually do the in-person.

256
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And I just loved being able to interact with these people- Mm... and coming to these sold-out workshop where we had at least 22 people per workshops.

257
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And it's been really amazing to be able, like, can you handle that many numbers? Because paper flowers is so technical sometimes. Yeah. How do you showcase it in such a way that it's easy for...

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'Cause a lot of people that do come to my workshop, they're brand new. They've never touched crepe paper before, and so how do you break it down to make it easier for them? So that was another big component.

259
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My online courses has always been a great selling point for me. Paper to Profit was a huge one for... So I would say right now 40% came from Pink & Posy for my sales.

260
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Another 40% came from Paper Talk podcast with all the Paper to Profit, the mastermind, and then 20% with the Posy Box. Because I haven't been... I've been figuring out what to do with the Posy Box. Mm.

261
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Do I revive it again with myself? Do I keep it under the Pink & Posy umbrella? Which is really interesting because my cohort, Jessie, she's having the opposite problem.

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[laughs] She wants to focus on her fine art, but separate it to the teaching, because teaching's really important for her. So she has her jessiechiu.com, and then she has Crafted to Bloom, which is her teaching portal.

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And she's pushing that, but I'm also thinking-I'm pulling back from it. Yeah. So it's been really interesting having the back behind-the-scenes of like, "What's your thinking behind that?"

264
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And she'll ask me what's my thinking behind it. Like, "Why did you... Why are you pulling back?" And it was just a lot of work.

265
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When you have three different social media account to handle, and you don't have someone else to like be posting, to edit, to do all that stuff- Yeah... it falls on you to do it. And so I've been very fortunate.

266
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Um, Sarah Kim is huge social media person. Sh- I would say she's an influencer, and she's taken over PaperTalk podcast, which has taken a huge weight off of me.

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And the best thing about our PaperTalk podcast collaboration is Jessie, because she's an attorney, she, she's a word spitter. Yeah. She just can spit out words like no one can.

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And she's just taken over the writing component of it. S- Sarah has taken over the marketing component, and I've actually taken over the technical component- Mm... of it, which has been such great, um, division of labor.

269
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So, so, so wait- So we can focus on our own businesses... the, the mastermind too is, is, is under this umbrella. This... I'm really interested in this. Yes. I wanna talk more about this for a second. Yeah.

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Like, I'm a big believer in that the creator economy, solopreneurship. Like, solopreneurship is overrated. Um, businesses are usually more su- sustainable when, when you, when you build them together.

271
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Um, and, and I think like the- Yes... whole like being a internet entrepreneur just kind of alone in your apartment or whatever is, is just a bit depressing, frankly. But also, I think it's more effective. It is.

272
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[laughs] Um, and it is. I mean, you know, you can make more money in the short term, maybe. You, you have the full share of the profits, but, um, long-term sustainable businesses usually get built with multiple people.

273
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100%. Um, so, so tell me more about like, about this kind of tension between like, well, what do you do on your own? What do you do with these people? Should you be doing more with them?

274
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Should you be doing more, more on your own? Um, what's... Yeah, tell me more about... You, you were just talking about it, but I really wanna focus more on this. Yeah.

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So being able to hand off major components- Mm-hmm... of all these other pieces has allowed me to focus on mine. Actually, it pushed me because I was like, "Oh, if PaperTalk's doing that, why am I not doing it myself?"

276
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And to be able to... One brain is, is not as good as three brains. Sure. [laughs] And by having three brains, three perspective- Yeah... you get to solve all these different mediums, and I want that for my mastermind.

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And that was one reason why we started our mastermind, is I love the fact that I get to talk to s- Jessie and Sarah every single day. I can text them. I can call them. I can do whatever, and they have my back. Mm.

278
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They'll respond and says, "This is what you need to do." And it's been... And we're all on the same mind frame that we want this for our community.

279
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And to be able to go inside and s- get a peek of what I get to have the past decade, it's been really, really incredible, and I want this for my audience. So wait, what about the, the upcoming mastermind?

280
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You said the, the next one... This past one was six weeks. Yes. The upcoming one is six months. Yes. So I'd, I'd love to hear like, um, in terms of like how you're gonna price this differently.

281
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Is it gonna be the same, just 24 people cap, or will there be more people, less people? Um, tell me about the plans for this longer mastermind. Yes. So this mastermind is a six months commitment. You...

282
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We're gonna do automa- automa- automated paying- Mm-hmm... of 125 per month. Mm. And you get to meet with a cohort. It... We wanted to cap it off with each group being smaller so they have more time to talk.

283
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So if we need to do like two or three different smaller groups- Mm... I'd rather have that than one large 24 people. Because at that point, you don't get the, a chance to have a voice as much as you think you would.

284
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Yeah. But y- but I do want to have like an in-person.

285
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So I'm hoping after the six months or during the six months, if I feel it's right, I would love to have, invite everyone in to stay at an Airbnb to actually meet each other.

286
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Because I found that when you get to see each other face-to-face, give each other hugs, and to be able to drink coffee- The actual community. Yes. Exactly. Mm. Exactly.

287
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And I want that so much, and that's what I'm envisioning for this. And I'm hoping after the six months they will love it, and they have seen changes in their business, and they wanna continue on.

288
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So we wanna open another cohort after the six months. So that ends in January. The next one will start in February. So it'll be a nice continuation, so that way we can supply support for everyone in the group.

289
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Because life changes. Your business will change, and you're gonna get at different times, because this is gonna be the fall/winter season. Mm-hmm. And so it's... People are getting ready for winter shows.

290
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People are getting ready for Christmas gifts and holidays. And also, at that time, in November, you should already be thinking about Valentine's and Mother's Day. Yeah.

291
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[laughs] And it's, it's really like things that you don't think about. Like, uh, so they're the holidays. You're not thinking about February already. And already at this point, if you don't have your Christmas,

292
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uh, like lineup already done- Yeah... you're too late.

293
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You should already have your marketing already in place, your email- This is like, like I know cooks, like, uh, or like food magazines right now in August is when they're working on their Thanksgiving issue, right?

294
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Exactly, yeah. Yeah. So you should be doing the exact same thing, so that way you're ready, and you're not stressed out and pulling last minute.

295
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Because by that time, if you wanna buy anything Christmas related, it's already sold out. Mm-hmm. And so you have to pre-buy a lot of things if you're going to make things for the holidays. Mm-hmm. Um- And then... Yeah.

296
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Okay. And then when we do the spring one, that will be spring/summer. Mm. And that's a whole different type of events- Yeah... and people and weddings.

297
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And so we wanna talk about all the different ways that goes up and down with your business.

298
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Because tax seasons, that's another thing that we're gonna be starting to talk about, and if you need to pull out 1099, when you need to send it out. How do you send it out?

299
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If you have PayPal, you don't have to send that out. So these are the things that we wanna tell our cohort, things you need to be aware of. Mm-hmm. Um, let's say five years from now.

300
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I, I, I, I think predictions are usually, you know, just fluff. Um, but I say five years from now, what would you like this business to look like ideally?

301
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Is it, is it you're just doing the courses and the podcast full time? Um, what is the, your dream version of this business five years from now?Definitely the podcast. Mm-hmm.

302
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That's always been a joy, and that's something that we have talked about, like, "Do we continue this? Are we still finding enjoyment on this?" Mm-hmm. "Is our, our audience finding enjoyment on this?"

303
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I find that really important to know that we're keeping tab on our audience and what they wanna hear and what they wanna learn from us. Another component that I'm in the works right now is a book. Mm. Another one.

304
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And I'm hoping to have more... Yes. So I'm really excited. It's something completely different, which I'm really excited about, and I'm hoping that will happen. And so I wanna do more books.

305
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I found really big enjoyment on writing it, the process of working with my editors, and also the aftermath- Mm...

306
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of how do you publish your book, how do you push your book out to your audience, and how do you promote it? I find that really, really challenging and fun. Yeah.

307
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And then of course, I do wanna do more online, and I wanna talk more about the technical aspect of how to do paper flowers, and I find that is going to be really, really incredible to share with my audience. Nice.

308
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Uh, just one last question, I think. Uh, what single thing, moment, event,

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course, whatever, whatever it may be to you, what single thing are you most proud of over the course of, of this last five to 10 years of your career? One, one, two things popped up in my head. Oh.

310
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The first one is building this community. Mm-hmm. Of knowing that the people in my community are such amazing, giving people.

311
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I've loved that for everyone that's in the community, and it's just really amazing that I know I can reach out to anybody in Australia, in England. They would totally... We would have a conversation. Yeah.

312
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And I know if I met them in person, first thing we're gonna do is like, "Oh, my God, that's you." [laughs] And so [laughs] I love that. But I think the biggest thing, uh, feather to my cap- Mm...

313
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I would say my museum exhibit at the Cleveland Art Museum. I saw this on Instagram, very beautiful. Yeah. Thank you. It was just an incredible moment to be able...

314
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And I, I re- still remember it, when the glass dome came over the piece, it, it finally hit me because for the past two hours b- I was talking to the curator on putting all the pieces together, and I- Let me, let me contextualize quickly for the- Yes...

315
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for the listener.

316
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Um, maybe, maybe Tom, our editor, can put the video in, uh, on the video version, but basically, there's this beautiful blue vase with all of these different, um, like, I, I don't know how you would say it, maybe mini vases kind of sticking out of it, um, blue and white vase, and, and it's, y- you have your paper flowers all over it.

317
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It's very stunning. I don't know if it was more to it than that, but I saw that, this one kind of beautiful piece. Yes. That's it. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, so this is a Delftware, um... It's called technically a tulip vase. Mm.

318
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But they call it a flower pyramid vase. Mm. And this was dated back in- That makes sense... the 1600. Yeah. And, and they had to go through... They had to figure out which medium would work. Mm.

319
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Because there's been some where they do, like, fondant or gum paste, and then they also did silk flowers and things like that, and then finally they nailed on paper flowers.

320
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Within the paper flowers, they l- started looking at all these different artists to figure out which artist would fit this particular vase the best.

321
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And it was just really flattering to know that they chose me, and it was just- How'd they find you? They found me sh- They said one of their board members actually saw me on CBS Sunday Morning. Mm.

322
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And from there, they presented it and says, "Hey, I know you're doing this with flower pyramid. This is someone that you should look at." And so that's how they found me on that. That's awesome. Yeah.

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Uh, Quinn, I think we'll, we'll end it right there. Thank you so much. Thank you for coming on. Yes, of course. This was wonderful. Thank you, Francis. Where, where should people go to find your work?

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Find me, um, PinkandPosy. That's my handle for pretty much all the different social media platform. PinkandPosy.com is my website. That'll give you all the information, and PaperTalkPodcast.com is my podcast. Perfect.

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Thank you for coming on, and listener, we will see you next week. Thank you.

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