WEBVTT 1 00:00:00.080 --> 00:00:09.680 [instrumental music] Growth, just in general, has become both easier and harder at the same time. There's just so many channels, so many audiences to reach, so much content being generated. 2 00:00:09.890 --> 00:00:19.720 On a given month, you know, we're generating fifty million impressions across all those brands and channels that I mentioned. You said, wait, you said fifty million impressions a month? Fifty million impressions a month. 3 00:00:19.940 --> 00:00:30.850 What are kind of the first principles of audience development as an independent creator? How we think about audience development is really threefold. One is [instrumental music] 4 00:00:30.960 --> 00:00:37.810 Welcome back to the Creators Spotlight podcast. My name is Francis Zier, and today we're speaking with Jonathan Hunt, VP of HubSpot Media. 5 00:00:38.340 --> 00:00:44.800 He's been working in media for the better part of two decades behind the scenes at companies including Vice, Vox, Nat Geo, and Complex. 6 00:00:45.340 --> 00:00:54.300 We spoke about his approach to audience development and how HubSpot approaches acquiring and/or working with independent media brands and creators. Enjoy. 7 00:00:54.700 --> 00:01:03.920 [instrumental music] Looking at your LinkedIn, you have held-- you've, you've got a, you've got a great history in media. Um, you've held a couple roles specifically with audience development in the title. 8 00:01:04.000 --> 00:01:13.680 I imagine that you've done audience development in more than just these roles. Um, specifically at Complex, you were the EVP of Marketing Communications and Audience Development. You were there for about three years. 9 00:01:13.700 --> 00:01:19.980 And at National Geographic, you were SVP Digital Strategy and Audience Development. Uh, you were there for just under two years. 10 00:01:20.040 --> 00:01:29.980 So my question to start it off is how would you describe what audience development is as a category of work maybe to somebody who doesn't work in media? Yeah. 11 00:01:30.040 --> 00:01:36.380 I mean, the way that we define audience development and how I've really approached it throughout my career is, as the name implies, you're really 12 00:01:37.420 --> 00:01:49.860 approaching growth through the needs and the interests and what you know about the audience you're trying to, to reach, right? And so that becomes your compass that inform things like content creation- Mm-hmm... 13 00:01:49.900 --> 00:01:58.380 the channels that you ultimately, uh, market through, um, how you think about targeting, asset development, and so forth. 14 00:01:58.560 --> 00:02:06.560 And so, you know, within HubSpot Media, how we think about audience development is really threefold. One is an insights feedback loop. 15 00:02:06.680 --> 00:02:39.120 So us being able to understand a bunch of different intent signals, so search-based intent signals, LLM-based intent signals, uh, influence-based intent signals gleaned from, uh, you know, sources like YouTube Studio or Beehiiv, et cetera, to be able to then work directly with our content creators, whether it's, um, a producer, a writer, an editor, to just give them as much insight as possible to be able to think of new ways of reaching the audience that they're going after, informed by that data. 16 00:02:39.140 --> 00:02:50.160 Mm-hmm. That's one piece. The other piece is ultimately being able to grow your distribution, and, um, the way that you've always been able to do that is usually through own and operate channels, paid media. 17 00:02:50.860 --> 00:03:01.410 Um, more so it's also through, um, you know, partnerships, um, so with like-minded publishers, um, through, um, LLMs as well, through AEL. Mm-hmm. 18 00:03:01.540 --> 00:03:16.440 So being able to sort of influence how you're showing up within ChatGPT, Perplexity, um, Claude, et cetera, so that whenever someone searches for something that's relevant to your brand, um, you show up ideally first. 19 00:03:16.730 --> 00:03:19.670 And then the last piece is, uh, our creators program- Mm-hmm... 20 00:03:19.670 --> 00:03:43.360 um, which is obviously, I think, really relevant for this conversation, which is how we work with external third-party experts, um, in the fields of marketing, sales, AI, entrepreneurship, and so on, to be able to reach their audiences, um, and to do that in a really authentic way, uh, and to do that across platforms like email, um, YouTube, and LinkedIn. 21 00:03:43.620 --> 00:03:52.430 Uh, and so that's how we think about audience development today. I think oftentimes people kinda conflate audience development with just social or marketing. 22 00:03:53.049 --> 00:04:06.980 You know, I would almost argue that audience development, especially in, um, the modern media marketing climate, is becoming a lot more influential in how you, um, diversify traffic, uh, how you compete, right? 23 00:04:07.020 --> 00:04:16.760 Because there's just so much saturation in terms of, uh, media brands, content creation, and so you really have to be very surgical in terms of what you're creating and how you're distributing it. 24 00:04:16.800 --> 00:04:23.750 So, okay, so the way you're describing it, um, I, I wanna try to translate this now into like- Yeah... maybe for an independent creator, right? You're describing very- Yeah... 25 00:04:23.760 --> 00:04:32.469 sophisticated, large operation, uh, that's both for the media properties under HubSpot Media as well as for HubSpot itself. Very complicated. Yeah. 26 00:04:32.469 --> 00:04:42.500 Um, for somebody maybe who is an independent creator, maybe they have a newsletter, it's like a thousand subscribers up to- Yeah... I don't know, twenty thousand, but maybe it's just them doing it, right? 27 00:04:42.880 --> 00:04:55.080 What are kind of the first principles of audience development that somebody needs to like, to kind of make their operation a little bit more sophisticated as an independent creator? Yeah. 28 00:04:55.140 --> 00:05:03.940 I would say, look, growth just in general has become both easier and harder at the same time. Mm-hmm. Um, especially if you rely on paid media to grow. 29 00:05:04.000 --> 00:05:13.530 Like, the rates have just become pretty unaffordable, especially for smaller creators, and there's much more saturation and competition, especially in, um, direct response environments. Mm-hmm. 30 00:05:13.540 --> 00:05:21.820 And so oftentimes what that means is, you know, operating like a scrappy small marketing and media team, which oftentimes creators have to do. 31 00:05:21.860 --> 00:05:33.500 And so what that means is being able to identify partnerships with other relevant publications- Mm-hmm... that share similar audience interests, and being able to work with them to, um, build together. So, 32 00:05:34.560 --> 00:05:39.680 you know, simple things like swaps, um, guest op-eds, guest con-contributions, et cetera. 33 00:05:39.780 --> 00:05:50.480 Ways to shift and migrate audiences between like-minded media products to be able to grow your subs base, whether you're on YouTube or you're operating a newsletter, and vice versa. 34 00:05:50.580 --> 00:06:00.500 Um, the other thing too is, um, diversification. And so I realize that can be really tough sometimes, especially for smaller creators that are focused on a single channel. 35 00:06:00.720 --> 00:06:09.172 But again, in a world whereThere's just so many channels, so many audiences to reach, so much content being generated. 36 00:06:09.492 --> 00:06:31.732 Um, being able to reach your audience across more than just one singular channel, whether you're a newsletter operator or a YouTube creator, and being able to take your expertise and your IP, repackage it, and expand it into new ways to reach those audiences, it creates just more moats and makes your business harder to challenge, but also allows you to, to get in front of more people, and again, push audiences back and forth. 37 00:06:31.792 --> 00:06:45.152 So say, for example, if you're a newsletter operator or creator on Beehiiv, being able to also find an opportunity to, to take that expertise and that content, that editorial strategy and translate it for building out a presence on LinkedIn or building out a presence on YouTube. 38 00:06:45.182 --> 00:06:51.192 Mm. Because those ultimately then also become marketing channels for you to push audiences back to your newsletter, creating this kind of flywheel. 39 00:06:51.332 --> 00:07:00.732 And so that's how we approach it, even though we're not necessarily, uh, a small independent creator or a smaller media company, but I think the, the strategy still applies no matter- Mm... what size you are. 40 00:07:00.792 --> 00:07:05.572 The lines are blurred. We're all competing for the same attention. I, yeah, no, I know. I know. 41 00:07:05.772 --> 00:07:22.052 And um, you know, I think what's most interesting right now to me is that model of independent creator becoming the media company, and you see so many fantastic examples of really smart, um, well-sourced journalists that are defecting from traditional media- Mm... 42 00:07:22.062 --> 00:07:32.672 and going to platforms, you know, like Beehiiv or YouTube, uh, or LinkedIn, and building up a business from, um, just their trust and their expertise. Yeah. 43 00:07:33.072 --> 00:07:40.802 Uh, I wanna get into that in a little bit, but we should also- Yeah... talk, uh, briefly, contextualize everything you do. So you are VP of media at- Sure... the VP of HubSpot Media, right? 44 00:07:40.832 --> 00:07:49.342 And you're the head of The Hustle. Yeah. Um, this, this is a pretty big operation. There's, I think there's The Hustle, My First Million, which is sort of part of The Hustle, Marketing Against The Grain. Yeah. 45 00:07:49.372 --> 00:07:57.152 There's, uh, Mindstream. We've talked to Adam Biddlecome before. That was a really popular episode. Yeah. And then there's, I think probably dozens- Thousands [laughs]... if not more of- Yeah. [laughs]... 46 00:07:57.162 --> 00:08:05.912 things I don't know about. Yeah. So describe briefly for the listener, like what exactly you do in your role today. I think you described it a little bit in the audience development, um- Yeah... 47 00:08:05.922 --> 00:08:17.002 bit a second ago, but what is the breadth of what you do? Yeah. So, um, I guess the TLDR is I lead a media company within a B2B company called HubSpot. Mm. 48 00:08:17.002 --> 00:08:23.392 Um, so I think a lot of people are familiar with HubSpot, but maybe they're not as familiar with how we approach marketing HubSpot. 49 00:08:23.442 --> 00:08:32.282 And I think traditionally within B2B companies or other CRMs, what you find is that, you know, there's a very kind of, um, formula playbook, right? Mm. 50 00:08:32.322 --> 00:08:41.052 Like, you have direct response, you have big brand campaigns, you have celebrities as part of those big brand campaigns, um, you have, you know, customer enablement, et cetera, et cetera. 51 00:08:41.112 --> 00:08:52.972 But oftentimes what you don't have is a really strong owned and operated media network- Mm... that allows you to continuously build audience, but also market to those audiences. 52 00:08:53.392 --> 00:09:04.542 So what we've built here is an editorially independent media company that is comprised of about 60 people across, um, a structure that you would find in any, like, mid-sized to large-sized media company. Mm-hmm. 53 00:09:04.552 --> 00:09:17.952 You have a content operation, so those are, um, you know, video producers, writers, editors, um, visual effects artists, on-screen talent as well. Yeah. Um, and they don't come from B2B companies. 54 00:09:18.212 --> 00:09:35.172 Uh, they come from places like, uh, Axios, Business Insider, The Onion, Vox, like folks that have done this for B2C media companies doing it for a B2B media company, and they're doing that at scale across platforms like YouTube, newsletter, website, podcasts. 55 00:09:35.212 --> 00:09:43.712 And so today we have about, you know, 10 different owned YouTube channels across different categories like marketing, and sales, and entrepreneurship, and AI. 56 00:09:44.272 --> 00:09:53.972 Uh, we have about four to five newsletters, um, across those same categories. We have a website. We have about five podcasts as well. Um, so that's one team, the content team. Mm. 57 00:09:54.552 --> 00:10:06.472 We have a monetization team, and so, you know, historically with most traditional media models, that monetization team is out, like, pounding pavement and trying to close deals and get advertisers to advertise across their media products. 58 00:10:07.052 --> 00:10:18.032 I think what's unique about our business model is that we're not an impressions-based media model, so we're not incentivizing content creators to just go out there and try to create as many impressions as possible- Mm... 59 00:10:18.072 --> 00:10:24.112 so that our sales team can then go and monetize those impressions, um, or squeeze more pennies out of the RPM. 60 00:10:24.512 --> 00:10:47.032 What we're trying to do is we're trying to develop really high quality, high intent audiences that then we can put a resource in front of that feels very editorialized, uh, and utilitarian so that you then click on that resource and then give us enough contact information so that our sales team can the- go and then nurture you hopefully into a customer for HubSpot. 61 00:10:47.072 --> 00:10:53.472 And so that's what the monetization team focuses on across all of our different media brands and channels. Hmm. And then you have the audience development- Wait, one, one, wait, sorry Yeah. 62 00:10:53.512 --> 00:10:57.312 One, one thing really quick there- Yeah... and then, and then I'll- Yeah... come back to, you said audience development team. Sure. So you had a LinkedIn- Yeah... 63 00:10:57.321 --> 00:11:03.332 post a couple of months ago saying that YouTube right now is HubSpot Media's number one area for content and monetization investment- Yeah... 64 00:11:03.352 --> 00:11:10.932 which made me curious more about, like, the degree to which, is there any more direct monetization you're after? Is that a KPI that you guys have on the team? 65 00:11:11.032 --> 00:11:19.712 Or is it all more like, no, this is a, a funnel for, for HubSpot software products and, and, like, there is... Like, I mean, you probably are directly- Yeah... 66 00:11:19.722 --> 00:11:24.632 monetizing on YouTube, though, and I know, I know Beehiiv has run ads with, uh, with- Yeah... My First Million, for example. 67 00:11:24.952 --> 00:11:36.792 So tell me about the relationship between, like, monetization in terms of being paid to advertise a product versus monetization that is marketing for HubSpot Media that HubSpot is paying for by just funding this business. 68 00:11:37.792 --> 00:11:45.452 Yeah. Yeah, so just to be clear, you know, we don't work directly with third party advertisers- Yeah... to advertise against our inventory. 69 00:11:45.552 --> 00:11:51.832 Um, but to your point, we're really focused on generating business for our business, but that happens in a couple of different ways. 70 00:11:51.972 --> 00:11:56.532 We talked a bit about demand generation, so, you know, we call them leads or qualified leads. 71 00:11:57.012 --> 00:12:07.422 Um, we're able to measure that all the way to the amount of monthly reoccurring revenue and annual reoccurring revenue that those media products are able to drive for HubSpot the business on a monthly- Yeah... 72 00:12:07.442 --> 00:12:13.412 and annual basis. HubSpot, famously a product that's very good at tracking these kind of things in the first place. [laughs] Well, I mean, yeah, exactly. 73 00:12:13.452 --> 00:12:21.612 Like, you would hope that we would have a good measurement solution for doing all this. Uh, but in addition to that, what we're also measuring is the brand influence of these media investments. 74 00:12:21.672 --> 00:12:28.352 So on a given month, you know, we're generating 50 million impressions across all those brands and channels that I mentioned. Hmm. 75 00:12:28.372 --> 00:12:48.632 Those are obviously driving-Uh, awareness and consideration and association of those media products to HubSpot to help people continue to think about our product while they're maybe not in the consideration cycle, so that they, when they are in the consideration cycle, we're part of their day one list and they choose HubSpot maybe over one of our competitors. 76 00:12:48.812 --> 00:12:55.132 Um- You said, wait, you said 50 million impressions a month? 50 million impressions a month. Across the whole portfolio. Wow. Across the whole portfolio. 77 00:12:55.292 --> 00:13:01.762 You know, definitely with the bulk of those coming from YouTube, email, and podcasts at the moment. Mm-hmm. 78 00:13:01.852 --> 00:13:14.992 Um, and then in addition to that, you know, we're also generating a lot of just, um, you know, earned media for HubSpot, like media that you would have to go otherwise buy if you were running a traditional paid marketing playbook. 79 00:13:15.032 --> 00:13:25.522 And so there's all these, um, additional ways that I think we're able to value media investment within HubSpot that isn't so exclusively last touch and- Mm... 80 00:13:25.572 --> 00:13:35.772 attributable to immediate demand, but also just improves how people, uh, are aware of, but also think about HubSpot across the entire year. Yeah. 81 00:13:35.872 --> 00:13:48.772 Uh, as an aside, it, it's funny, I was at a Mets game, um, on, on Tuesday a few days ago, and I was catching up with a friend, sitting next to, sitting next to her, and, um, I was saying, "Oh, I'm interviewing this guy, uh, later this week," you know. 82 00:13:49.132 --> 00:13:55.672 Yeah. "Media at HubSpot," and she hadn't heard of HubSpot. Um, and so I was describing it a bit, but I was like, "Oh, look, their, their logo's right there." 83 00:13:55.762 --> 00:14:05.692 [laughs] Because there was like six HubSpot logos on, uh, on the, the wall, [laughs] like across the field. Yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Hey, if you're enjoying this conversation, consider subscribing to the podcast. 84 00:14:05.852 --> 00:14:14.912 We release a new episode every Tuesday. All right, back to the show. I read a piece by Simon Owens, who writes the excellent- Yeah... Simon Owens Media Newsletter. 85 00:14:15.412 --> 00:14:24.092 Uh, he published this like three weeks ago or so, um, about the history of, of Medium, and Medium is now a profitable business, and he kind of charts it from like why was... 86 00:14:24.212 --> 00:14:27.472 how it was founded to then what went wrong and, and now how it's profitable. 87 00:14:27.812 --> 00:14:40.612 But, uh, the, I think it was the current CEO of Medium was describing their creator customer base, or rather user base, the people who are using it, the platform, to publish a work that then is monetized. 88 00:14:40.672 --> 00:14:46.952 He was describing them not as like full-time creators, which is usually what I'm talking to, is people who are- Yeah... some, some, somehow full-time creators. 89 00:14:46.992 --> 00:14:54.592 He was saying more it's like it's the people who already have this knowledge and expertise, and so for them it's very easy to just go out and write a little bit. 90 00:14:54.692 --> 00:15:01.781 Um, and they're not like [laughs] somebody like me, who's going out and like, you know, interviewing people a- and gathering that expertise and then sharing it. Uh, but I thought- Yes... 91 00:15:01.792 --> 00:15:03.632 that was a really interesting definition. Um, 92 00:15:04.692 --> 00:15:16.892 anyways, we are together speaking on this panel at ONA, the Online News Association conference in New Orleans a couple weeks after this comes out, and this panel is about the creator-led future of journalism. 93 00:15:17.032 --> 00:15:26.622 So one way I wanted to discuss that here is you were saying a lot of the people on staff at HubSpot Media, for example, worked at Axios, these other more traditional- Yeah... 94 00:15:26.692 --> 00:15:38.061 or b- you know, B2C, um, consumer media companies. Um, I think what's interesting here is there's a few different funding models for this creator-led media, right? There's advertising- Yeah... 95 00:15:38.072 --> 00:15:47.972 reader subscriptions, grants, and then this kind of company ownership model that HubSpot practices, that Creator Spotlight is also too in relation to Beehiiv, right? Um, [laughs] 96 00:15:48.032 --> 00:15:58.052 okay, I've said a lot, but I guess my question here is what you think of those funding models, which are the most sustainable, which will be the most successful, the most, 97 00:15:58.992 --> 00:16:08.472 the most widely used over the next, let's say, five to 10 years? Yeah. Look, I think it's just tough right now to be an impressions and ads based business model. 98 00:16:08.912 --> 00:16:19.972 Um, you know, it's becoming harder and harder to compete with the major hold cos in media companies, uh, like media companies in terms of like media ad agencies- Yeah... right? Who wield a lot of budget. 99 00:16:20.012 --> 00:16:38.341 It's harder to compete against the platforms, which, you know, oftentimes, you know, brands are going there for the scale, but also for attribution back to like a specific KPI, and, you know, Meta, LinkedIn, X, et cetera, like they have pretty good measurement capabilities and, um, you go there for direct response. 100 00:16:39.052 --> 00:16:54.312 And so the slice of the pie is just becoming smaller and smaller, yet there's more and more media companies that are fighting for that smaller and smaller slice, and, uh, they're doing so at a time whenever CPMs for them are going down, down, down. 101 00:16:54.352 --> 00:16:54.362 Mm-hmm. 102 00:16:54.392 --> 00:17:10.332 So like whenever you start to do the calculus, like the business model just starts to, to fracture and doesn't make as much sense as it once did, and I think that really puts the imperative on diversification beyond an ad supported media model to be able to continue to survive. 103 00:17:10.352 --> 00:17:21.852 And selfishly, I, I, you know, I think that's what I really love about the model that we have at HubSpot Media, which is not having to rely on scale for the sake of generating impressions- Mm... uh, cheaply, right? 104 00:17:22.112 --> 00:17:32.732 But being able to be very intentional around the audiences that you are bringing over to your media products, and really focusing on quality over scale. 105 00:17:32.912 --> 00:17:46.262 Like we still have a lot of scale, don't get me wrong, but the intent and the quality of it, I would argue, is a lot higher than most traditional media businesses, and as a result, we are able to convert those audiences over to being nurtured into a lead- Mm-hmm... 106 00:17:46.262 --> 00:17:52.912 and hopefully a customer of HubSpot at a much higher conversion rate than I would say like most other media companies can. And so I think 107 00:17:53.852 --> 00:18:11.332 the future where companies like HubSpot or other B2B companies, um, can be another way for media to continue to survive in an editorially independent way, um, is a really interesting business model, and you see some examples of that, like, you know, with Snacks and Robinhood is one example. 108 00:18:11.372 --> 00:18:17.442 There's a dozen others, and they're starting to really crop up. Mm-hmm, mm-hmm. And, um, I really do believe that is one future avenue. Mm-hmm. 109 00:18:18.072 --> 00:18:26.412 Um, when HubSpot acquires a media company, what, like, measures have to be taken to make sure that, that it's seamless? 110 00:18:26.492 --> 00:18:36.232 And specifically, I think one thing I would worry about is, uh, kind of the, the key man risk of a- any, any business where it's like one person- Yeah... and it's their voice and this... 111 00:18:36.792 --> 00:18:46.628 Oftentimes it's not like really a personal brand. Sometimes it is, but it's their voice- Yeah... um, and them doing so many things. How do you make sureHow do you de risk that in an acquisition like this? 112 00:18:47.608 --> 00:18:52.428 Yeah, I mean, the key man aspect, um, you know, like, is a real one. 113 00:18:52.588 --> 00:19:05.988 I mean, just for like, you know, the watchers and listeners, I mean, the key man sort of aspect here is like if you are acquiring creator and it's the creator's name as the brand and they leave two years after the acquisition, does the brand and the trust in the audience go with them? 114 00:19:06.388 --> 00:19:12.368 Mm-hmm. And you know, it is a consideration of ours, right? Um, I don't think it is unsolvable. 115 00:19:12.408 --> 00:19:24.328 Like oftentimes how you do address that is you help them build a brand around their own personal brand and you evolve it out and you introduce new correspondents, new talent and help them expand. 116 00:19:24.368 --> 00:19:33.408 So you know, uh, in the event where unfortunately like they might decide to leave and go pursue something else, the thing doesn't fall apart. Mm-hmm. So that is definitely one aspect. 117 00:19:33.488 --> 00:19:44.948 But whenever we're exploring a media acquisition, like we do have a set of criterion that we kinda like check through to make sure that it is a fit and this is how we approach, you know, our MindStream acquisition, you know, which closed last October. 118 00:19:45.088 --> 00:19:48.548 But you know, MindStream, you know, they're on Beehiiv with 200K subs. 119 00:19:48.747 --> 00:20:00.708 Like I argue they're one of like the voice year, um, experts in, uh, AI, not just news, but also how to take what you're hearing in the world of AI and apply that today, tomorrow- Mm-hmm... 120 00:20:00.718 --> 00:20:11.368 within your own, you know, business. So we sort of like identify like are these people that we like, just genuinely like we vibe with, they vibe with us. Yeah. Can we see ourselves like working with them long term? 121 00:20:11.408 --> 00:20:19.828 Do we, do we each like have a spirit that like we feed off of that we think that they can learn from us, but we can also learn from them? Mm-hmm. 122 00:20:19.908 --> 00:20:29.908 Um, you know, oftentimes as I mentioned before, we're doing experiments with and paid experiments to sort of understand like what is the audience like? Are they engaged? Do they even care about HubSpot? 123 00:20:30.028 --> 00:20:34.928 If so, how are they converting relative to other creators partnerships that we have? 124 00:20:35.048 --> 00:20:46.878 Um, you know, do they speak to an underserved audience or address a topic that maybe we aren't as big in or have as much credibility in from a media perspective, which is why the MindStream acquisition made so much sense. 125 00:20:46.908 --> 00:20:52.847 Like we had AI media products, but they weren't as big and they weren't as influential as what MindStream had built. 126 00:20:52.888 --> 00:21:01.468 So it just made a lot more sense for us to, um, bring them into HubSpot Media as opposed to trying to compete with them directly. Yeah. 127 00:21:01.548 --> 00:21:20.257 Um, on the, the idea, the topic of diversification, um, and, and different platforms, one thing I like to talk about is this idea of content capital and how the only truly liquid form of content capital, uh, is, is an email, the CSV that you've exported and can like have on an external hard drive and load it into any ESP and, and reach those people, right? 128 00:21:20.388 --> 00:21:29.968 Like I think- Yeah... you know, uh, not them saying like YouTube isn't stable, Instagram isn't stable. Like, you know, people can be banned, et cetera. Yeah. You know, I think for- Own those audiences, right? No. 129 00:21:30.088 --> 00:21:39.608 I think for most- Yeah... people though it's like you do, you know, you're gonna be fine though you're vulnerable to algorithm changes, et cetera. Tell me like about that as a consideration for HubSpot. 130 00:21:39.668 --> 00:21:50.868 Obviously YouTube is really important for you. Is there any world where you're like, "Oh, actually we are gonna consolidate this all into RSS or even some owned video platform that we control"? 131 00:21:51.448 --> 00:21:59.068 Um, how do you think about these platform diversification risks? I just, I just think the owned video platform approach doesn't work. 132 00:21:59.128 --> 00:22:09.868 Like I've seen it so many times at Vice, at other companies where I think the hubris of it all is like, "Ah, we can build it and they will come." [chuckles] You're competing with YouTube. Yeah. 133 00:22:10.228 --> 00:22:17.388 And you're competing with other massive platforms that are building video products on top of it. Every social platform is a video platform today. 134 00:22:17.488 --> 00:22:27.368 Why would you try to sink millions of dollars into building your own kind of like, you know, AVOD product- Yeah... uh, to be able to compete against that? Like it makes absolutely no sense. 135 00:22:27.408 --> 00:22:39.788 Though the rationale that I think any media executive will give for doing that, uh, is that you own the data. Uh, and that's why obviously like CNN, Disney, et cetera, like that's why they continue to invest in that. 136 00:22:39.848 --> 00:22:44.568 Yeah. Again, most media companies are not CNN and most c- m- media companies are not Disney, right? 137 00:22:44.688 --> 00:22:54.748 So for media companies like ours, and I would say 99.9% of most media companies, it probably would not make sense- Yeah... to build your own video platform. It's just not gonna work. 138 00:22:55.298 --> 00:23:05.068 Um, so we definitely try to go where audiences are and meet them on their own terms. But first party data, especially as it relates to newsletters, uh, is a huge consideration for ours. 139 00:23:05.318 --> 00:23:17.968 Um, it was definitely a big driver in the MindStream acquisition, how we think about, uh, how we prioritize, uh, The Hustle, uh, Masters of Marketing, which is our marketing newsletter, and a few others because first party data is the currency. 140 00:23:18.148 --> 00:23:25.828 Mm-hmm. Um, you can flex it in different directions, to your point. You can enrich it. Uh, you can use it to market other media products, other channels. 141 00:23:26.088 --> 00:23:39.188 Um, you can use it, um, to, um, retarget audiences through a paid manner. Um, I just saw it as so much incremental value that, um, you just don't get from, um, rented platforms like- Yeah... 142 00:23:39.198 --> 00:23:41.928 YouTube or Spotify, et cetera. Um, okay. 143 00:23:42.068 --> 00:23:51.938 Going back to the creator topic, uh, the, The Webbys were on my mind, um, because I [chuckles] was scrolling your LinkedIn and I learned that your wife was the president of the Webby Awards- Yeah. That's right. Yeah... 144 00:23:52.008 --> 00:24:01.358 up until recently, worked there for 14 years. Yeah. Um, and I was interfacing with the Webby people a lot earlier this year. Um, I-- We were promoting in the newsletter, uh, applications for their... 145 00:24:01.548 --> 00:24:11.078 It was their first year, um, with creators as, as an award category, and I thought that was really interesting and the way that they approached that. But obviously I'm always really interested to see how people- Yeah... 146 00:24:11.088 --> 00:24:12.668 define what is a creator. 147 00:24:12.688 --> 00:24:27.928 And what's interesting to me here is, um, like how the relationship between independents and like traditional, or, or traditional media companies, or not even just traditional media companies, but companies with a lot of capital that can fund these things like HubSpot, right? 148 00:24:28.178 --> 00:24:37.488 Yeah. Versus like, like would you say... Or I mean, as I was looking at this, there's like, I think My First Million was, was up for some Webby Awards, and then there was- Yeah... 149 00:24:37.508 --> 00:24:44.978 like, uh, um, Shannon Sharpe's podcast was up for a Webby Award, and then there was a couple others, um, or a few others. But to me that was like- Yeah... 150 00:24:44.988 --> 00:24:53.138 there's a conflict there where it's like My First Million sure, like maybe are Sam and Shaun creators? Maybe. Is, is Shannon Sharpe a creator? 151 00:24:53.248 --> 00:25:00.638 I don't know, 'cause he, it was a famous, you know, football player and now- Yeah... he works for SP- or I don't, I don't know. I think he was part of the ESPN network. I think they've cut him now. That's right. 152 00:25:00.648 --> 00:25:02.138 There's a bit of a controversy there. That's right. Yeah, yeah. 153 00:25:02.148 --> 00:25:11.248 But all this being said-It's really interesting to me how an organization like that, um, that, you know, gives out these awards that are these legitimizing- Yeah... 154 00:25:11.248 --> 00:25:21.818 things, how they choose to define what is a creator, and, and it really... I'm, I'm still not sure what the answer is for me, where I'm like, does a creator have to be this independent person? 155 00:25:21.828 --> 00:25:28.698 I don't- And then once they join a, a media company, then they're just, then they just are an employee of a media company? Does that even matter? I mean, yeah, I don't think so. 156 00:25:28.718 --> 00:25:39.418 Because, you know, I think, look, I think we're all gonna have different definitions of it. Yeah. And if you were to ask Sam and Sean, they would 100% viscerally disagree with being labeled as a creator. Yeah. Um, 157 00:25:40.318 --> 00:25:50.418 but I think, you know, the definition that we all have, um, every creator's gonna have a different definition as well. Yeah. And so I think what's great about the Webby Awards, obviously, is they... 158 00:25:50.438 --> 00:26:00.218 As, like, with the creator category, they just recognize the people that have been able to, again, like, take what they're best at, most passionate about, the expert at, and translate that- Yeah... 159 00:26:00.228 --> 00:26:14.178 into outsized influence, oftentimes independent of, you know, major, um, corporations, right? Like, oftentimes on their own or outside of like a traditional media company or a traditional institution. So, you're right. 160 00:26:14.218 --> 00:26:23.518 Like, we were up for it. Unfortunately, uh, we lost. Um, and I asked my wife about that. She was like- [laughs] How about, how about it now? I can't help you anymore. She's like, "Sorry, I can't help you." 161 00:26:23.578 --> 00:26:31.918 Not that she ever did. But, uh, but yeah. [laughs] Yeah. She's... Yeah. Um, but yeah, I mean, next year. Next year. Yeah. Yeah. It'll be... I'm really, well, I'm really interested to see next year how it evolves, right? 162 00:26:31.958 --> 00:26:42.028 Like, that's- Yeah... I think the first year, how they define it is, is, okay, cool. But let's see how it's consistent, how it changes next year. And I was talking to- Yeah... to Jesse Feister, who's, who- Yeah... 163 00:26:42.088 --> 00:26:48.728 runs the organization there. Yeah. Um, and he, he was saying like, "Yeah, we're... I mean, obviously, it's gonna change. It's, it's such a, such a fluid thing." 164 00:26:49.298 --> 00:27:00.918 Um, one thing I wanted to ask you is y- you in 2010, you know, still, you're a few years into your media career. Yeah. Uh, but it's, it's, it's at the beginning. I think you are still at Vice or you're just leaving Vice. 165 00:27:01.438 --> 00:27:12.498 What do you think, like, if you were, if you were to talk to 2010 you and, and, and tell him something about how the media industry has changed, what would be most shocking to him? Yeah. 166 00:27:12.618 --> 00:27:24.058 I think if we're talking about 2010, uh, I think just the, the fact that websites probably are [laughs] aren't as big of a deal as they once were- [laughs]... and that 167 00:27:25.398 --> 00:27:37.318 o- like, over-leveraging yourself on a web strategy is very shortsighted. Again, different moment in time, and the strategy worked, and the, m- you know, the b- 168 00:27:38.218 --> 00:27:40.528 uh, you know, the ad model was completely different as well. Yeah. 169 00:27:40.538 --> 00:27:50.998 Like, you know, advertisers weren't spending as much money on, you know, YouTube as they are today, or with independent creators as they are today, or on newsletters as they are today, and that's all dramatically changed. 170 00:27:51.038 --> 00:28:03.288 But I think having, having that foresight of like, hey, it's 2010. If you just diversify and, like, really sink a lot of energy and calories into just building more moats around- Yeah... 171 00:28:03.288 --> 00:28:20.538 your media brand so that whenever 2024 or 5 rolls around and like, you know, uh, AIOs roll out and your search traffic is decimated and everyone's on YouTube and Reddit and other platforms and, uh, ad dollars are not what they used to be, you have other ways, other lifelines, right? 172 00:28:20.578 --> 00:28:33.038 Yeah. Um, and you know, if you look at Vice today, it's definitely a much different version of what it was back in 2010. Yeah. That's for sure. Uh, one last thing. Yeah. Um, let's say there is a B2B creator. 173 00:28:33.188 --> 00:28:40.238 They've got an audience of 50,000 on a newsletter. Yeah. Maybe they're even, you know, making a profit on their time. It's, it's just them. They're succeeding. 174 00:28:40.718 --> 00:28:53.178 Um, how would you advise them on whether to keep, keep going it alone or take in investment money or even be acquired? Oh, go on it alone for as long as you possibly can. 175 00:28:53.208 --> 00:29:01.368 Like, you want, you want as much leverage as possible. You don't wanna dilute yourself. You don't have to worry about other partners. Having help is nice. Yeah. 176 00:29:01.478 --> 00:29:09.368 Being a solopreneur is a very tough job, and it can get very lonely and get very stressful. And obviously, there is the, [sighs] 177 00:29:09.598 --> 00:29:17.928 the desire to potentially, like, distribute some of that responsibility and stress to other people, but you don't have to bring on partners or investors to be able to do that. 178 00:29:17.958 --> 00:29:23.397 You can work with other talented creators or freelancers to be able to support your strategy. 179 00:29:24.118 --> 00:29:32.178 And then once you get to a certain scale, it's completely untenable to continue to sort of like grow and expand and also do all the BD and the finance. Yeah. 180 00:29:32.188 --> 00:29:41.458 And so at some point you probably will have to bring on, uh, investment or a partner or sell. But I would just say, like, probably hold on to independence for as long as possible. That makes sense. 181 00:29:41.498 --> 00:29:51.108 This, this reminds me of one other definition of, of creator I have, which is that, like, it's a media entrepreneur in that a creator is somebody who holds all the risk and all the upside, right? 182 00:29:51.138 --> 00:30:00.278 Like they have all- Totally... the equity in their business, and I think that's a pretty definitive part of being a creator because it's about, it's about the incentives and what motivates them. Yeah. Yeah. 183 00:30:00.338 --> 00:30:09.828 I mean, this is exactly it. Uh, like, and at the same time, it's like you are a business operator, but the business is you. Yeah. And it's your expertise and it's your proprietary insight and information. 184 00:30:09.898 --> 00:30:22.438 And, you know, to start to dilute that with other people that aren't you starts to sort of, I think, like dilute the message and the narrative around your media brand, but also it just complicates just the overall exit strategy once you do decide to exit. 185 00:30:22.838 --> 00:30:32.708 Yeah. Um, and I guess if you are a B2B creator looking at exiting, maybe you wanna talk to HubSpot. Yeah. I mean, look, we're always open for conversations, for partnerships. 186 00:30:33.098 --> 00:30:41.528 Um, and so, you know, we have a fantastic, uh, creators team. Um, so you should definitely reach out. Sick. Well, we will end it there. Um, Jonathan, is there anything else- Okay... 187 00:30:41.538 --> 00:30:54.278 you wanna, you wanna plug before we get out of here? Mindstream.news, uh, subscribe if you aren't. They're on Beehiiv. Best AI newsletter in the market. Um, Inbound 2025, San Francisco, September 3rd. 188 00:30:54.698 --> 00:31:03.238 Uh, if you're in town, go to it. Um, and then, you know, stay tuned. We got a lot of huge announcements coming out of HubSpot, but also HubSpot Meeting in the next couple months. Perfect. 189 00:31:03.438 --> 00:31:06.898 Uh, thank you again, and listener, we will see you next week. 190 00:31:07.258 --> 00:31:24.138 [outro music]