WEBVTT

1
00:00:00.100 --> 00:00:04.460
The creator economy is this sort of ride you get on and, and you never know how you're gonna [laughs] get off it.

2
00:00:04.480 --> 00:00:11.300
Well, and there's the pressure when you have a book coming out of like you need to be on all the platforms, you need to be marketing yourself. Like, that's how the book industry works now. There's rigor at every level.

3
00:00:11.500 --> 00:00:18.880
A lot of control has been given up in order to secure the bag. [laughs] You write so much about, like, questioning these things and the, questioning power, et cetera.

4
00:00:18.960 --> 00:00:28.520
I want to break academic food studies out of its kind of ivory tower. Again, you're not a creator, you're a writer. Yeah, exactly. Major milestone, major change. What's going on?

5
00:00:28.760 --> 00:00:36.320
So here, this is an exclusive [laughs] from me. [laughs] A scoop. Welcome back to the Creator Spotlight podcast.

6
00:00:36.620 --> 00:00:42.800
If this is your first time listening, my name is Francis Serre, and besides hosting this podcast, I run a newsletter by the same name.

7
00:00:42.900 --> 00:00:51.550
And in both, each week, I interview and profile a different person working in the creator economy to learn how they approach the production and business of digital media, of content.

8
00:00:51.760 --> 00:00:55.400
By the way, if this is your first time listening, I would love it if you subscribed.

9
00:00:55.420 --> 00:01:05.680
Today, we are speaking with Alicia Kennedy, who is an essayist and culture critic best known for her newsletter, From the Desk of Alicia Kennedy, which has over forty thousand subscribers and has been running for five years.

10
00:01:05.740 --> 00:01:15.700
She's easily one of the best writers we've had on the show, and I don't think I would call her a creator because she specifically has said she doesn't wanna be called that and has really built a career as a writer.

11
00:01:16.110 --> 00:01:17.820
Writing is her work.

12
00:01:18.070 --> 00:01:30.080
And while she's primarily a food writer, she's razor sharp on plenty of other topics, and much of what I wanted to speak with her about comes from a handful of essays she has written about writing, the algorithm, and the politics of attention.

13
00:01:30.260 --> 00:01:44.520
Basically, all the things that compose being a creator. Here's the episode. This was a great conversation. Enjoy. I think there is only one way to start this conversation, and that is by quoting

14
00:01:45.500 --> 00:01:58.440
one of your essays at length, which is your September 2020-- 2022 essay on selling a lifestyle. So a couple paragraphs I'll read here. "Something is happening to the food writers. We're losing our minds.

15
00:01:58.780 --> 00:02:16.240
This job requires knowledge of not just food and cooking, plus whatever one's niche is that makes them desirable on the market, but also to be a photographer, not new, and now a videographer, perhaps with three cameras in various positions in order to ensure a cinematic result when we go on to act as editors.

16
00:02:16.300 --> 00:02:26.980
Oh, and we should maybe know how to host a podcast and edit audio for good measure. We are food stylists and recipe developers and restaurant recommenders. We are everything because there's no other choice.

17
00:02:27.640 --> 00:02:37.180
Being a freelancer means you're also an entrepreneur, which means you're every department of your company," says Abigail Koffler, whose newsletter, This Needs Hot Sauce, comes out biweekly.

18
00:02:37.300 --> 00:02:42.060
I am loathe to think of myself as an entrepreneur, yet here I am.

19
00:02:42.560 --> 00:02:57.480
So I wa- I really, I felt like there's no other way to start this conversation because this is you rejecting the conditions of being a creator, um, and actually in the comments [chuckles] to that piece, you reply to a reader and you say, "Well, I hope I don't come off as a content creator.

20
00:02:57.780 --> 00:03:07.640
I just wanna be a writer." Um, and I have to say, you do come off as, as a writer, and, like, a serious writer and not a content creator, and I think obviously there's a lot to unpack there.

21
00:03:07.680 --> 00:03:20.329
So I would love if you could speak to kind of how you define the creator label and why and how you reject it. So 2022 was a very different time than 2025, let's say. Mm-hmm. True.

22
00:03:20.329 --> 00:03:30.970
[laughs] And so I think that because, [laughs] because of the, the t- time in which I wrote that piece, which was, like, only vaguely post-pandemic- Mm-hmm...

23
00:03:30.980 --> 00:03:44.410
only sort of, TikTok had, has ha- was in its ascendancy in a real way, I think, where I had rej-- I had, I had not rejected TikTok, but I was like, "Oh, that's just not for me. I'm not a video person."

24
00:03:44.460 --> 00:03:49.960
Not gonna get on that train. I'm not, I don't need to get on that train. Like, I'm trying to have some restraint with social media.

25
00:03:49.980 --> 00:03:59.790
[laughs] I have never exercised restraint around social media in my entire life, so, like, let's start now. Um, and so, but then I had to get on it because of an assignment to write about- Mm...

26
00:03:59.860 --> 00:04:12.160
recipe development as a job. And honestly, like, I have enjoyed, for the most part, and have a decent relationship with watching TikToks. Yeah. It's not something that, you know, uh, I, I have a compulsion with.

27
00:04:12.900 --> 00:04:24.030
But it did really bring into focus for me what I was writing about in that piece, which was, you know, the idea that you, you just have no escape and no break. Mm-hmm.

28
00:04:24.110 --> 00:04:34.420
And, and you have to keep learning and being agile, and you have to have a good attitude about it. You have to put a good face on. So when you're, when you take on, for me, when you take on the label of creator,

29
00:04:35.380 --> 00:04:45.530
you're more saying that you're making content, obviously. Yeah. And that content is being shared and owned by, like, these platforms where you have no control over anything. Mm-hmm.

30
00:04:45.530 --> 00:04:54.740
And 2022 I think was also, correct me if I'm wrong, but I think that was the year that Instagram changed its algorithm a lot. And so I think I was maybe speaking- Like when they introduced Reels, probably?

31
00:04:54.820 --> 00:05:04.020
It might've been that, and then there was, there was a, there was a piece in The New York Times about small business owners having a lot of trouble, and it might've been around that time too. So- Mm-hmm...

32
00:05:04.060 --> 00:05:14.460
these were all these things kind of coming into, like, this, this what felt like a swamp of content that you couldn't control. You can't control the algorithms. You're... Like, I had a really...

33
00:05:14.540 --> 00:05:24.980
Like, Instagram was always fine for me until this shift that happened where I felt like I wasn't really able to share my work, and I was, like, kind of scrambling to be like, "What do I, how do I change myself?

34
00:05:25.040 --> 00:05:35.810
How do I, like, make little reels about, you know, making ice pops or whatever it is, [laughs] like, to, to entertain this, like, beast of a machine? Um, and why do I have to do this?"

35
00:05:35.860 --> 00:05:45.950
Like, why are the conditions of my job such that I have to not just be a good writer at the top of my game, writing a newsletter, writing for out publications, writing a book. Mm-hmm.

36
00:05:45.960 --> 00:05:49.000
At that time, I was waiting for my first book to come out. I was doing edits.

37
00:05:49.540 --> 00:05:57.720
And then also, and, like, I take pictures because I like to take pictures, not because of any sort of machine- Not 'cause Instagram forced you to learn how to take pictures... not because In- Instagram didn't force me.

38
00:05:57.800 --> 00:06:06.460
Like, that was me my whole life. But learning video or trying to figure out what my, my vibe was on video was just a whole other thing that I never wanted to do.

39
00:06:07.060 --> 00:06:18.350
And, you know, it's just, it just felt like this swarm of things, and it, it just felt really confusing. And so I wrote that piece as a way to try and navigate my way through what I was feeling- Mm...

40
00:06:18.360 --> 00:06:34.970
which was just overwhelm, um [laughs]-And, and also I wrote that piece and I think it has the sort of a tone of just like kind of desperation and rage because I was like, I knew I had to maintain everything I was doing and I had to maintain a level of attention for the release of my first book- Mm-hmm...

41
00:06:35.020 --> 00:06:41.140
so that it would come out and be successful. And so like trying to tread water, I always characterize it as like those couple of years of my life.

42
00:06:41.220 --> 00:06:47.030
When my newsletter started, I wrote a book, and then I was waiting for the first book to come out. With the, it was like treading water- Yeah...

43
00:06:47.040 --> 00:06:54.369
of trying to be like, "I have to, I can't do anything to lose this-" Well, and there's the pressure when you have a book coming out- Yes... of like you need to be on all the platforms, you need to be marketing yourself.

44
00:06:54.440 --> 00:06:56.549
Like that's- Exactly... that's how the book industry works now. Exactly.

45
00:06:56.580 --> 00:07:03.290
I think, wait, something that just occurred to me while you were saying that is like, like how you, you know, uh, photography was something you were always interested in, in, in doing- Yeah...

46
00:07:03.290 --> 00:07:13.330
anyways, but video was like a bridge too far. Um, I'm thinking of a, a, I don't know if kerfuffle is the right word. A, a little Substack notes thing this morning where you- Oh, boy. [laughs]...

47
00:07:13.330 --> 00:07:19.000
p- you posted a note, "Seeing someone on here confuse citation for plagiarism isn't giving me a lot of hope for media literacy." Yes.

48
00:07:19.300 --> 00:07:22.920
Uh, but I also know so many people have zero clue on journalistic norms or ethics and no one around to ask.

49
00:07:23.400 --> 00:07:35.280
Um, then like I also read, before I read that this morning, I saw that somebody repost this on Twitter, an article in, um, uh, Pointer called I'm a Gen Z Journalist. My Generation Doesn't Know What That Means. Yeah.

50
00:07:35.340 --> 00:07:45.780
Kind of a whole different thing that both that your, your kind of conversation on Substack notes and that get into, but [laughs] long way of saying it occurs to me that like the media literacy maybe now is like

51
00:07:46.840 --> 00:07:57.400
analytically and like understanding ideology behind a given thing is, is lower than ever. But like literacy around producing the media product is higher than ever.

52
00:07:57.440 --> 00:08:08.980
And so a 23-year-old will know how to produce like amazing TikTok videos, but they might not know what ideology they're reproducing- Right... when they make the video. Yes. That's really interesting.

53
00:08:09.030 --> 00:08:16.500
I think that's really interesting. And I think that, I liked that piece. I read that piece when it came out, I think. I'm a Gen Z Journalist- Yeah... and [laughs] my generation doesn't know what that means.

54
00:08:16.940 --> 00:08:24.390
And it's really difficult to navigate against because, and again, it, it c- it, it comes with this feeling of s- of swampiness in terms- Mm-hmm...

55
00:08:24.390 --> 00:08:30.900
of like platforms and content and like everyth- everyone is in the same sea, so to speak. Yeah.

56
00:08:30.960 --> 00:08:38.710
But doing very different things and coming to it with very different backgrounds and very different literacies, various literacies. And so- Mm-hmm...

57
00:08:38.710 --> 00:08:49.000
you know, for me I, I see someone young and confused about what it means to be quoted in The New York Times, and I'm just like how I have to come- Like this is so awesome that you're being quoted.

58
00:08:49.040 --> 00:08:55.049
Y- it's so awesome that you're being quoted. Yeah. And, and if I was young and h- was being quoted there, I would've been losing my mind, like what did I say?

59
00:08:55.049 --> 00:09:07.060
Well, wait, we should say, we should say for the listener who, who hasn't read this thing that, yeah, it's this young writer who'd written this, this essay, um, on their Substack and who by the w- this is a whole 'nother thing, is very much talking about their writing as a Substack using the- Yeah...

60
00:09:07.160 --> 00:09:13.900
using the initials SS for it too, which is crazy. Um, but- Ooh, that's crazy because of the times we live in... I didn't even think about that for that. Oh my God. The time, [laughs] oh God, the times we live in.

61
00:09:13.920 --> 00:09:22.250
The times we live in. [laughs] And I'm like you're calling it SS all the time. [laughs] It's, it's, it's, it's, it's too, it's an ideological nacho. Um- Yeah... I think, okay,

62
00:09:23.180 --> 00:09:30.260
w- where I was going with this though is, yeah, so she's been quoted and at, by name with a back link to her, to her site, to her, her newsletter.

63
00:09:30.340 --> 00:09:35.880
Um, and even like there was like an Instagram carousel quoting her by name, and she was pissed about it 'cause she's like- Yeah... "Why am I not compensated for this?"

64
00:09:36.380 --> 00:09:46.750
Uh, which is like almost gets into then like this like I- NFT concept of ownership and like artist royalties and such. Um, okay, a lot there, but that, anyways- [laughs]... that's what this was to the listener- Yes...

65
00:09:46.760 --> 00:09:47.380
who, who didn't know. Yeah.

66
00:09:48.860 --> 00:10:04.400
I think, okay, one, one last thing on media literacy before we move on is again when I read your note there I was thinking how, something I think about a lot, decreased media literacy I think is a desirable outcome for let's say this administration- Yeah...

67
00:10:04.420 --> 00:10:13.049
that has recently begun, um, and certainly the billionaire class, right? Because it's you, then who's loudest, I mean this is, I, I almost feel like- Yeah...

68
00:10:13.060 --> 00:10:22.150
this is like so simple like dorm room, um, philosophizing, but like then who's loudest can like define the meaning. Uh, uh, okay, uh, where th- where, where I'll end this is I,

69
00:10:23.160 --> 00:10:37.359
a kind of a shoddy tweet I, but I crystallized yesterday is like the three t- three tenants of our cultural moment are, um, a decrease in friction, which is like crypto, Zinn, and basically every app, uh, sports gambling apps especially.

70
00:10:37.390 --> 00:10:37.520
Mm-hmm.

71
00:10:37.940 --> 00:10:49.440
Um, entrepreneurialism being the creator economy, the g- the gig economy, and then decentralization of meaning, uh, being like Facebook removing fact checkers for community notes and, and Elon Musk's Doge department.

72
00:10:49.520 --> 00:10:56.390
Um, and all these things I think are actually the same thing, but I couldn't think of the perfect word to, to tie them together.

73
00:10:57.340 --> 00:11:08.030
Well, I think that removing friction is, is something that I, I've been talking about this a lot because I think the notion of friction is one that we are losing completely, but also in discourse- Mm...

74
00:11:08.030 --> 00:11:13.540
where people don't like to have a conversation that is uncomfortable. Uh, it, it- Yeah...

75
00:11:13.560 --> 00:11:22.360
and in a way that, not that you have to have a conversation with, with Nazis, but [laughs] certainly not, um, just to go back to the SS thing which is like- Yeah... really blowing my mind.

76
00:11:22.440 --> 00:11:35.180
But the, the fact of, you know, how it's very, very difficult and I think, uh, uh, I think it speaks to maybe a generational difference that there, there's some emotional reaction to disagreement- Mm-hmm, yeah...

77
00:11:35.190 --> 00:11:46.540
that I think people have when they're very online. And when they've, when their political beliefs have been formed and fomented online, there's, there's this kind of emotional response, you know?

78
00:11:46.680 --> 00:11:57.420
And like, it's like well I watched a TikTok that said, for example, Frida Kahlo is bad, and so if you are bringing up Frida Kahlo I need to ha- I'm going to have this big emotional reaction about it. Yeah.

79
00:11:57.460 --> 00:12:07.720
And so, and that's, that's part, like that's the intellectual component of these losses of friction in terms of our other engagements, whether it's with money, whether it's with other people.

80
00:12:08.260 --> 00:12:18.319
Um, you know, the, the loss even of, yeah, like entrepreneurialism is like you lose the, the whole notion of having a coworker and- Yeah... having to debate and go, you know?

81
00:12:18.380 --> 00:12:28.820
So there's just this constant-Like, just desire for, for ease and, um, affirmation that comes with that too, that, that is an intellectual problem.

82
00:12:29.120 --> 00:12:38.540
Hey, if you're enjoying this episode, make sure you subscribe to the podcast so you don't miss next week's episode. We release a new one every Thursday. Enjoy. Um, okay, let's talk about public intellectualism. Okay.

83
00:12:38.550 --> 00:12:41.890
[laughs] I'm, I'm again going to quote you a little bit. Okay.

84
00:12:41.920 --> 00:12:53.710
So in your May 2023 essay, uh, On Myself, you write that, "The essays get called on X, um, in what was intended to be a humorous, knowing nod to public intellectuals past."

85
00:12:54.120 --> 00:13:01.930
And then, uh, this morning too, on Substack Notes, you wrote, "But this is another reason why the independent writers versus mainstream media narrative is bad.

86
00:13:02.200 --> 00:13:11.040
Do you wanna be a public intellectual or do you wanna wear a tin hat?" [laughs] Um, so I wanted to ask precisely what you meant by that. By what's- Sure...

87
00:13:11.060 --> 00:13:13.880
what's the difference between being a public intellectual and wearing a tin hat?

88
00:13:14.240 --> 00:13:22.730
[laughs] Well, I, I was just kind of making a joke about how a lot of, a lot of people on Substack are really obsessed with Substack as Substack. Yeah.

89
00:13:22.780 --> 00:13:28.520
I mean, they're really obsessed with the idea that they're, like, these renegades against the mainstream media, and that sort of thing.

90
00:13:28.560 --> 00:13:41.600
They don't see themselves as journalists doing a job the same way that a writer doing an opinion column or doing reporting at The New York Times or whatever is doing a job. Um, and so they, they have...

91
00:13:41.850 --> 00:13:49.000
In, in a lot of the responses to the note we were discussing before, I saw- Mm-hmm... someone be, saying something like, "I used to blog, and The Atlantic stole my ideas all the time."

92
00:13:49.060 --> 00:13:56.710
And to me that sounds like a conspiracy theorist with a, with a tin hat. And so f- and when I say public- A failure to understand the public sphere, and like the idea- Exactly...

93
00:13:56.710 --> 00:14:04.700
that you're always standing on other people's ideas, and it's this... Yeah. And we're all grasping at ideas that are in the ether. We're all in this world reading thing...

94
00:14:04.740 --> 00:14:09.200
You know, it's not, nothing is the most original idea or thought ever.

95
00:14:09.220 --> 00:14:17.650
And so, um, and then I always say public intellectual with, with kind of a smirk and a, and as a joke, which is why it was funny when I saw it in your notes.

96
00:14:17.690 --> 00:14:24.060
'Cause I was like, "Oh, I don't actually seriously consider [laughs] myself a public intellectual." Well, I, yeah, I used, I took it directly from- [laughs]... from you.

97
00:14:24.180 --> 00:14:38.940
I actually, I have to say, I mean, the, the on, the on X thing, when I was reading a lot of your works, like I, I loved it as somebody, like, who one of my most influential classes in college was I took a class called Montagne and the Life of the Essay, and all his essays are on blank, right?

98
00:14:39.020 --> 00:14:44.160
Yeah. So, like, to me, that's like my purest form of the essay that I love to read. So I was like- Yeah...

99
00:14:44.200 --> 00:14:52.930
I mean, just by adopt- It's kind of like how you reject the creator label and call yourself a writer, and like you, you do that by just saying that constantly. Yes. Yeah.

100
00:14:52.980 --> 00:15:00.800
Um, and by saying, I don't know, by saying like, on blank, you're, you're framing, you are framing it. There's, like, no irony. You're, it is- Yeah... a public intellectual essay.

101
00:15:01.240 --> 00:15:09.980
It i- I mean, and it is because, I mean, in the ways in which... Well, I make this joke about it because it's such a silly thing. In the US we, like, don't have public intellectuals. [laughs] Like, we're not- Yeah...

102
00:15:10.000 --> 00:15:20.140
you know? The clo- Maybe the closest in recent memory would've been Christopher Hitchens- Mm-hmm... who was British. Um, like no one is taken seriously who, who is, you know, in this, in that sphere.

103
00:15:20.180 --> 00:15:24.090
Like, you know, we're not- Well, there are, there are, there are these public intellectuals, but they're, they're fragmented, right? Yeah.

104
00:15:24.100 --> 00:15:35.730
Like, you might have, like, a, like, a, a Paul Graham, who's another British guy, but who's like a tech world public intellectual- Yeah... who so many people look to for ideas in his, like, 800-word essays, right? Right.

105
00:15:36.050 --> 00:15:43.920
Like Founder Mode was such an influential recent one. So, like, I think there are these, but it... And then there's, like, more, like, leftist-type people who are against this thing.

106
00:15:44.020 --> 00:15:55.860
Um, but I guess the public aspect implies there being, like, a, a larger reach maybe across- Right... ideological borders. Yeah. Like Foucault on TV. Yeah. Yeah. In France or something. Yeah. [laughs] True.

107
00:15:55.880 --> 00:16:07.360
Like, we don't really have that equivalent. And so, you know, I, I think of... I, I just think that it's funny because the US is, like, kind of anti-intellectual for the most part, and that's fine. I mean, it's not fine.

108
00:16:07.370 --> 00:16:11.060
Yeah. But it, like [laughs] I'm not trying- It's the world we live in... to fight against that. Yeah. It's the world we live in.

109
00:16:11.360 --> 00:16:25.280
And so for me, I think just claiming, like, making this kind of silly claim to it, or making this silly claim to, like, the on X construction, was just a way of, like, one, I'm really bad at titling things, and that's why my newsletter is ca- called From the Desk of Alicia Kennedy.

110
00:16:25.560 --> 00:16:34.879
Like, I have, like, one good headline a year in me. Got it. And I do not waste it on my own newsletter. Like, I'll put it- On Myself is a great headline. I, yeah. [laughs] It's so...

111
00:16:35.390 --> 00:16:43.210
And like, these things are meant to be tongue in cheek to me. Yeah. Like, if you knew me, and like... 'Cause I, I do think it's a very different experience to, like, read me versus to actually talk to me. Yeah.

112
00:16:43.220 --> 00:16:51.920
Because I, like, I think that, like, I'm gett- I've gotten very, much better. But like, if you don't understand, like, my humor and the tonality of what I'm trying to say- Yeah...

113
00:16:51.930 --> 00:16:58.800
then, then it will come across as a little bit of, like, you know. Self-serious. Yeah. Yeah. And I- I don't think so, though, reading it. I don't know. But maybe I'm just, like...

114
00:16:58.940 --> 00:17:06.490
I did, like, you know, r- read your writing for, like, three hours straight last night. So it's, like- [laughs] And i- in very good faith, right? Yeah. So maybe that's why. Yeah. Yeah.

115
00:17:06.500 --> 00:17:12.040
Good faith is always hard to come by. Hard to come by. [laughs] Oh, okay. Another thing I wanna quote from the On Myself essay.

116
00:17:12.360 --> 00:17:20.360
Um, you write, "I consider my main career accomplishment to be having been a contributing writer at The Village Voice. My name is on the masthead of the last official paper.

117
00:17:20.829 --> 00:17:38.280
This probably tells you a lot about what I value in my work: independence, a strong point of view, humor, rigor, and irreverence towards power," which I thought was very, um, like, clear-eyed, a very clear-eyed definition of yourself, and definitely comes across in, in how I read, how I read you too.

118
00:17:38.290 --> 00:17:43.310
And I, I think I would also- Yeah... add to that, like, a value for, for commun- for community, for discussion- Yeah...

119
00:17:43.320 --> 00:17:50.440
for being a contributor to society, to society, in kind of the way we were talking about, like, five minutes ago. Um, and m- and maybe you wanna speak more to that too, but I was also curious,

120
00:17:51.520 --> 00:17:59.410
'cause I'm like, oh, was your biggest accomplishment not, like, publishing your first book, right? So I'm like- Yeah... what would be... What would, what could surpass that- Well, for me-... as an accomplishment?

121
00:17:59.770 --> 00:18:11.020
[laughs] Well, the funny thing is that I, that was all I had in mind for myself, frankly. Mm-hmm. Like, growing up- Oh, yeah, totally... like, I... Yeah, no. I was like, I, I wanna work in magazines. I want to write.

122
00:18:11.050 --> 00:18:22.540
And for me, The Village Voice, more than The New York Times or oth- or The New Yorker even, or w- anywhere else, was the place I w- wanted to be, because it was the place that was the coolest, frankly. Like, so- Yeah...

123
00:18:22.550 --> 00:18:34.080
I and I, I just got an email one day in, I think 20 s- so 2016 that was, "Food writing at The Village Voice?" And I was like, "Oh, I did it." Like, that was it. Like [laughs] Check, yeah. Check.

124
00:18:34.180 --> 00:18:43.840
Like, I, the, I accomplished what I wanted to do because I wanted to be seen by people who would have been at this kind of storied alternative weekly. Mm-hmm. And so, you know...

125
00:18:43.860 --> 00:18:52.750
And e- especially, you know, having grown up on Long Island, and, like, The City was always this, like, place that was at once, like-The, the- Big and far away, but in reach... most important place.

126
00:18:53.290 --> 00:19:00.150
In reach and, but far away. And so I always, you know, that, it just to be kind of accepted in that way was really significant for me.

127
00:19:00.670 --> 00:19:06.070
Um, and so, you know, publishing a book and now, you know, I have a second book that'll- Mm... that'll come out next year. Um,

128
00:19:06.990 --> 00:19:20.070
these are great, but I have this kind of, um, [laughs] mindfulness thing where I don't, I try not to, um, have... I don't know, I try not to attach too much- Mm-hmm... value to, to what these things do or are.

129
00:19:20.390 --> 00:19:21.840
That's healthy. Yeah. Like, and I think too- Yeah...

130
00:19:21.890 --> 00:19:31.080
it is part of the, like, being part of something rather than like, like it would almost be uncharacteristically solipsistic for you to say that, right, you're publishing your book was, was, uh- Yeah...

131
00:19:31.110 --> 00:19:42.350
was the big accomplishment. [laughs] Um, okay, let's talk about the money of it all, making a living. Oh, yeah. So you, I think, have been making a living solely through your writing for most of the last decade, I think.

132
00:19:42.370 --> 00:19:50.820
Yeah. Um- 10 years, yeah. 10 years. For fully 10 years you've been making- Yeah... a living fully and independently as a writer. Yeah. Okay. I mean, sometimes I'd have to copy edit or, or do stuff, but- Yeah... yeah.

133
00:19:50.850 --> 00:19:56.820
But that's not as a full-time employee. Yeah. Yeah. Um, okay, so in your 2024 essay Algorithm of the Mind- Mm-hmm...

134
00:19:56.830 --> 00:20:02.230
you write, "I've said this before a few different ways, and I think it bears repeating and re-interrogating.

135
00:20:02.530 --> 00:20:12.030
I have this newsletter, but I'm not really better off materially than I was years ago as a regular contributor to papers and magazines, even if I have more freedom and am doing better work.

136
00:20:12.040 --> 00:20:18.720
This is the creator economy trade-off. Predictable instability for unpredictable instability."

137
00:20:18.720 --> 00:20:34.040
[laughs] "I criticize corporate soft power and the fracturing of the media landscape because I'm in the strange position of being both its beneficiary and its victim because I watch so many people day after day seem to accept that this is it, that this is just how we do things now."

138
00:20:34.490 --> 00:20:47.550
Um, so maybe there's something else in there you also wanna speak to, but what, the question I have is, like, how would you judge your material reality now compared to, like, the tail end of your, I think it was six years as a copy editor at New York Mag?

139
00:20:48.370 --> 00:20:55.670
Well, I f- the, the thing is the whole economy is different, and that's part of why- [laughs] Yeah... th- [laughs] The creator economy didn't really exist t- 10 years ago. The, well, yeah.

140
00:20:55.950 --> 00:21:00.319
The creator economy didn't exist, but also money went farther. Like, you know- Yeah...

141
00:21:00.370 --> 00:21:08.790
so I've always felt like once I'm making more money, like, the rug gets pulled out from under me and everything costs more [laughs] Mm-hmm. Yeah.

142
00:21:08.830 --> 00:21:18.370
Which is not a unique position to be in, and especially because I've chosen this kind of, you know, strange and, and non-lucrative career of being a writer.

143
00:21:18.530 --> 00:21:28.370
You know, I, when I was at New York Magazine, things were very different. Like, my rent in Bushwick when I quit there was $800 a month. Um, you know, I, it was a different time.

144
00:21:28.430 --> 00:21:40.810
I was making, like, $53,000 a year at the end. I started there in 2010 at, like, 45K, so it's not like I... I got one nice bump, and then it was- In six years. In six years. That's crazy. Yeah.

145
00:21:40.910 --> 00:21:51.390
Um, and so, you know, I, when I left there it was because my freelance food writing was doing, started to do pretty- Mm-hmm... well. I went to Food & Wine on a temporary freelance contract for a little while.

146
00:21:51.990 --> 00:22:05.510
Um, and, and was also, you know, contributing to magazines and, and stuff. Basically, I wrote that piece at a particularly [laughs] bad time, um, because I had taken the first half of the year to write my next book.

147
00:22:05.610 --> 00:22:15.410
Oh, okay. And so I wasn't focusing as much energy on, um, on my newsletter, so I wasn't focusing as much energy on generating, like, converting people, you know, et cetera.

148
00:22:15.490 --> 00:22:25.370
Like, um, which is that, that- All these marketing terms. Yeah, but also that's a religious term and, and so I- I see... it's not lost on me always, like the conversion- Yeah... aspect of it. That's a really good point.

149
00:22:25.380 --> 00:22:25.780
Um, yeah.

150
00:22:25.810 --> 00:22:34.310
And so I, you know, I had spent the first half of the year doing this, then I had gotten news that our landlords were selling our apartm- apartment here in San Juan, Puerto Rico, 'cause I've been living in San Juan.

151
00:22:34.810 --> 00:22:42.520
Um, and so it was a bad time in terms of, like, I was like, "This just isn't working the way my life used to work." Like, I, and, and I'm even talking about, like, 2020,

152
00:22:43.490 --> 00:22:51.670
2021, which was when I still had, on top of the newsletter and on top of writing my first book, I still had lots of, of publications to write for. Yeah.

153
00:22:51.960 --> 00:23:05.370
So I was never feeling the pressure of this newsletter is my only, like, work lifeline, and I had really consciously tried to avoid that happening. Like, I put a lot of work in m- into my newsletter. I love doing it.

154
00:23:05.430 --> 00:23:15.870
It's my favorite thing. It's the best job I could have. But at the same time, I'm constantly, like, my weekly income depends on how much people, like, like me this week. [laughs] Yeah.

155
00:23:15.910 --> 00:23:20.660
And I can't s- Like, that's really stressful, and it really does put a strain on, on one's mental health.

156
00:23:20.730 --> 00:23:32.390
And the fact that, like, I at the end of 2023 felt really comfortable and really in a good place and was like, "Okay, I'm gonna take, you know, at least the first six months of 2024 to kind of pull back a little bit on the newsletter.

157
00:23:32.450 --> 00:23:42.050
I'm gonna write two new essays a month." Um, and I did all these new features thing, and things to, like, try to make it work, but then it just, like, kind of like- Yeah. Not that, my income fell flat.

158
00:23:42.070 --> 00:23:49.060
The readership didn't fall flat. Like, the views didn't fall flat. I, you know, it wasn't like I was- But the conversion... losing free subscribers. But the conversions- Yeah...

159
00:23:49.060 --> 00:23:57.200
were lower, and it was because I was putting less into it, and I knew that and I felt it. And I also had taken that time off from posting a lot on Instagram. Mm-hmm.

160
00:23:57.210 --> 00:24:08.270
Like, I had taken that time o- I really wanted to write my, I wanted my second book to be- Were you off Twitter yet?... good. Oh yeah, I've been off Twitter since 2022. Okay, yeah. So, like, um, [laughs]

161
00:24:08.300 --> 00:24:16.580
but, but like I, you know, I had taken this time to, like, really try to do a good job with the book, and I was like, "Wow," like, you just get no f- break.

162
00:24:16.970 --> 00:24:24.470
And then I realized after, and I've talked about this with other folks who have independent newsletters, like, last August I took time off and I told readers I was taking time off.

163
00:24:24.790 --> 00:24:30.270
I came back, and, like, September I had dropped, like, 40 paid subscribers. Okay, wait. And this- Let's, let, wait. I have to talk about- Yeah...

164
00:24:30.280 --> 00:24:40.460
paid subscribers 'cause you're, I, I, I signed up for, for one month to- Yes... to read your, your archive. Um, and it's $10 per month, and I, or I've never seen this before. It's- Yeah... $30 per year. Yeah, yeah.

165
00:24:40.710 --> 00:24:48.260
75% off- [laughs]... which I thought was amazing. If I, you know, uh, I, I have to be honest. I, I didn't, I'm not gonna subscribe for a year. Yeah.

166
00:24:48.370 --> 00:24:53.500
I just, I wouldn't, I [laughs] this, this is my big thing is I interview so many people with paid newsletters, I'm like, "I'm sorry, I can't subscribe for the full year."

167
00:24:53.800 --> 00:25:01.330
[laughs] But if I was, like, just a reader coming and discovering it and being like, "This is cool writing. I've discovered it again- Yeah... and I wanna subscribe," there's no way I would buy the monthly.

168
00:25:01.430 --> 00:25:07.340
I would buy- Yeah... the yearly. $30- Yeah... like, it's insane to not buy the yearly. Um, has it, was it always like that? Or did you put that- No...

169
00:25:07.490 --> 00:25:14.990
to, to drive conversion?I did it, well, I did it because this year I'm paywalling more. I'm paywalling, like, everything. Yeah. And so- I'm doing that too...

170
00:25:15.230 --> 00:25:27.210
[laughs] so I've always had it at $30 because I think as an independent writer, I don't want the barrier to people, like, resubscribing to be- Mm-hmm... so high that they feel like, "Ugh, I can't support this person."

171
00:25:27.260 --> 00:25:35.190
'Cause, like, 50 bucks, even, even to me, to give to, like, one person is, like, it's a lot. Like- It- yeah... I just feel, I just feel like it's too much, frankly.

172
00:25:35.270 --> 00:25:39.860
Like, I, and for me, $30, it's, you know, it's the price of a hard- $30 is the price of a new hardcover, yeah... a new hardcover. Yeah.

173
00:25:39.890 --> 00:25:46.630
And so that's, that's the basis of it, basically, is like, if you can spend one year with me, you get basically a book's worth of work.

174
00:25:46.710 --> 00:25:55.380
And also on top of that, now I have, like, a lot more community aspects of it, which we can talk about. But the reason I did the $10 monthly was 'cause I was just like, you know what? Fuck it.

175
00:25:55.410 --> 00:26:02.180
Like, if people wanna just dip in- Yeah... and dip out, that's cool, but I wanna make a little bit more- Just give me a 10... money off of that. Like, yeah. [laughs] Exactly. Yeah.

176
00:26:02.230 --> 00:26:05.530
Like, I've like, it's, it's really not, like, a big, um...

177
00:26:05.610 --> 00:26:14.900
I'm not trying to convince people to do annual if they don't wanna do annual, 'cause the annual really is for people who, like, they wanna have, you know, chat conversations. They wanna come to- Wanna be in the salons...

178
00:26:14.910 --> 00:26:20.930
yeah, they wanna be in the salons. But again, me picking, like, grandiose names for things as kind of a joke because I am, like, who I am.

179
00:26:21.310 --> 00:26:31.910
And then, like, um, you know, and want, yeah, and wanna do the book club and that kind of stuff. They want, like, you know, the little more social community elements of, of joining up. They're gonna pay the $30.

180
00:26:31.970 --> 00:26:41.790
But people who just wanna dip in and read something or they're curious about something, they, I just wanna get, like, whatever. After the, the Substack and the Stripe fee, more than $5 from that. Yeah. So. [laughs] Yeah.

181
00:26:42.570 --> 00:26:51.230
Um, you, so you are gonna be paywalling pretty much everything- Everything... as you've said. Yeah, in March. Yeah. So this'll, this'll come out, like, a week before March. Okay.

182
00:26:51.240 --> 00:26:59.450
So you're, you'll, you'll be about to do it. [laughs] Um, and it also marks your five years writing the newsletter, I believe. Yeah, yeah. Um, major milestone, major change. What's going on?

183
00:27:00.490 --> 00:27:08.750
I mean, I just, the thing is, it, last fall I had, like, my viewership was cra- like, it was just so high in terms of, like, my actual list.

184
00:27:08.790 --> 00:27:16.790
And, like, and, and things- Do you think, was it, like, some essay you wrote that was just wildly popular and shared? No, I, m- my stuff doesn't go viral. Like, I [laughs] I am not a virality writer.

185
00:27:16.830 --> 00:27:26.950
Like, I, but I do have very, very consistent readership. And so, but I wrote a piece, like, on Martha Stewart, on the Martha Stewart documentary, that did really well. Um, you know, a few essays.

186
00:27:27.190 --> 00:27:34.169
You know, everything was just doing really, really well, but financially I felt like I wasn't being compensated enough.

187
00:27:34.250 --> 00:27:44.470
And so, you know, obviously if I, with the number of paid subscribers that I have, if I were charging everyone $50 a month, I would be, like, a, the, the newsletter itself would be a six-figure newsletter. Hmm, yeah.

188
00:27:44.590 --> 00:27:53.730
But, like, I don't, because I have this kind of, you know, [laughs] desire to not be a burden on people, I have- You also might lose some subscribers, yeah.

189
00:27:53.790 --> 00:28:00.510
Exactly, I would lose people, and I, and people wouldn't con- you know, I, I did a, a trial with $50. I felt bad about, I just didn't like it.

190
00:28:00.570 --> 00:28:08.270
Like, I only did it because everyone else is like, "Oh, you have to value your work." It's like, I value my work. I just, you know, I don't wanna- Yeah... feel like I'm robbing people a little bit.

191
00:28:08.650 --> 00:28:17.710
And so, like, um, so yeah. And so readership was really, really high and I was just like, you know what? I, I have these revenue goals for myself every week.

192
00:28:17.790 --> 00:28:27.430
This is part of my new project of, like, not being a weirdo about money. And then [laughs] um, I was just like, you know what? I think paywalling is, is what's gonna do it. And, like, I love having everything be free.

193
00:28:27.450 --> 00:28:37.110
Like, I am committed to, to use another, like, annoying academic phrase, like, public scholarship. Yeah. Like, I, I taught at BU food studies. I made all my lectures public when I taught culinary tourism.

194
00:28:37.199 --> 00:28:47.450
Like, every time I talk at a university or do a talk at, like, at a, a conference or something, I make it very, I make it public. Um, like, it's very important for me to have these things out in open spaces.

195
00:28:47.520 --> 00:28:52.830
And so y- going forward, I'm not gonna publish lectures again. That, that was kind of more of a special thing. Mm-hmm.

196
00:28:52.990 --> 00:29:03.030
But, like, if I do a talk at a university, like I'm talking at Lafayette or something for, for Earth Month, I'll, you know, I'll publish part of that publicly, because I do want that public record in term- in terms of those things.

197
00:29:03.170 --> 00:29:12.020
I want to break food studies and, and academic food studies out of its kind of ivory tower. Um, but at the same time, you know, I just, I need to make a living off of it if- Yeah...

198
00:29:12.050 --> 00:29:21.590
if it is going to t- take up all of my time. And, like, uh, but again, speaking to, like, the creator economy as this sort of ride you get on and, and you never know how you're gonna get [laughs] off it.

199
00:29:21.710 --> 00:29:33.910
I also, like, I, I, I, I need to create a vision for my life, like, that maybe isn't also reliant on this. But in the meantime, I need to make money. [laughs] Yeah. So that's really it. Yeah.

200
00:29:33.930 --> 00:29:43.360
So in a comment on your, on Work and the Internet piece last week, you said, "My 2025 plan, once I get my next draft to my book editor, is a whole new thing to launch that can- Yeah...

201
00:29:43.360 --> 00:29:56.210
contain my newsletter, but expand greatly what I can do," which smells to me of some kind of publication, larger- [laughs]... like, editorial magazine vibes. What's going on there? Yeah. I have, I really want to...

202
00:29:56.270 --> 00:30:09.090
So here, this is an exclusive [laughs] from me. Oh, a scoop. Um, [laughs] I really want to launch a, like, a literary nonprofit focused on food- Hmm... focused on academic food studies and food policy things.

203
00:30:09.250 --> 00:30:16.530
Um, sort of, if you remember, there was a website and, and they did a lot of classes, called, uh, Catapult, uh- I remember... that was literary.

204
00:30:16.610 --> 00:30:22.230
Um, uh, so I wanna focus on food but have sort of a publication, have a lot of classes, workshops.

205
00:30:22.350 --> 00:30:39.350
Really sort of, um, again, just, like, kind of make, make space for, for people who have an interest in these things but either don't have access or ti- like, time access, time resources, money resources to dedicate to, like, a full master's program or that sort of thing.

206
00:30:39.720 --> 00:30:39.720
Yeah.

207
00:30:39.790 --> 00:30:54.100
Or, you know, wanna kind of u- do writing or food writing as a hobby and, and have a, a lower barrier to entry to people to find out information about that and how that happens, and sort of, like, just demystify how it all, how all the sausage is made, um- Yeah...

208
00:30:54.100 --> 00:30:57.270
you know. Apt metaphor. Break down the gates, et cetera. An apt metaphor for a vegetarian.

209
00:30:57.330 --> 00:31:09.670
So yeah, it's, um, you know, the, that's kind of my goal in the future and, and working towards that because I do need to, I, and I said this on Substack Notes, I do need to create something that isn't tied to my name.

210
00:31:09.750 --> 00:31:16.834
Attached to you, yeah. Yeah.I've got that one written down, too. Yeah. [laughs] I thi- I, I wanted to ask you about, like, other... I don't know, other...

211
00:31:16.854 --> 00:31:23.773
Like, the waters you're swimming in there, like, other publications you admire. I know that you admire Cake Scene. I don't know if you've written for them, but you've promoted them.

212
00:31:24.294 --> 00:31:32.824
Um, and you've written in Mold, which I've bought one copy of precisely, and is defunct now. I, I don't know if they're still publishing online, but I know they're not publishing print.

213
00:31:32.864 --> 00:31:40.114
And these are both kind of, like, very forward-thinking, progressive, um... Maybe Atmos is another one, but that's more climate, not food.

214
00:31:40.434 --> 00:31:54.134
But these really progressive, um, exciting, kind of avant-garde food publications. Yeah. What... How do- how does this idea that you're fermenting, um, relate to those? Well, I love, I love both of those. I...

215
00:31:54.174 --> 00:32:04.174
Mold I love as, like, an example, an experimental example of what a glossy magazine could do, because it has all of the design and feel.

216
00:32:04.274 --> 00:32:12.904
Like, the look and feel of it is, you know, other than its, its larger format size, like, it, it feels, you know, like... Like, it feels like a W magazine. You know? Yeah.

217
00:32:12.914 --> 00:32:23.694
It's very recognizable in its, in its look and feel, but yet its content is so... Um, it's just so, you know, not, not coddling the reader. It's really- There's rigor at every level.

218
00:32:23.774 --> 00:32:33.684
There's re- a lot rigor at every level. It's really, really pushes people and challenges people in a way that, like, food writing is sort of... or not supposed to do. Mm-hmm. Um, it, it, [laughs]

219
00:32:34.174 --> 00:32:38.444
but Cake Sc- and Cake Scene as, like, a literary journal- It's kind of the opposite. Sorry to interrupt you.... focusing on food. It's kind of like the opposite- Yeah...

220
00:32:38.474 --> 00:32:48.064
of the, the, uh, the Instagram restaurant guy that you couldn't really call a reviewer, 'cause really- Right... what they're, they are is, like, kind of like a freelance restaurant critic who doesn't critic- Yeah...

221
00:32:48.074 --> 00:32:53.414
they're a freelance... Not even critic. Yeah. They're a freelance restaurant marketer who- Yeah... works for brand deals. Right. Exactly. There's no rigor.

222
00:32:53.954 --> 00:33:04.404
It's the, it's the complete opposite of that, and it's very global in scope, and it's very, and it's very focused on food from literally from the seed to, to the plate. So that is why I love Mold, and I...

223
00:33:04.424 --> 00:33:11.254
and Cake Scene as a literary journal is doing really great work. Whetstone was the other one, right? Though I haven't... Whetstone, yes. It, it's now defunct. Ah.

224
00:33:11.264 --> 00:33:18.734
Um, Steven was a friend, and Layla is, is my great friend who is the editorial director there. Um, but yeah.

225
00:33:18.854 --> 00:33:28.974
So there's, there's a lot to admire in these publications, and I think that for me, because I've had the experience of, like... I, I was a copy editor at NY Mag. I worked at Food and Wine.

226
00:33:29.034 --> 00:33:38.774
I worked at Edible Brooklyn- Mm-hmm... um, and Edible Manhattan. Um, I've been a contributor, like, to a million different places. Like, I've run my own newsletter as a sort of business. [laughs] Like, I'm...

227
00:33:38.834 --> 00:33:47.794
I've taught at the university level, but I'm also, like, teaching workshops as, like, a sort of at a... you know, trying to do it as a, at a, an affordable scale. Yeah.

228
00:33:47.934 --> 00:33:59.394
So I'm kind of trying to put all of my stuff together [laughs] in terms of, like, thinking of what this could be, and also what's missing in, in the, in the market-marketplace, let's say. Yeah.

229
00:33:59.514 --> 00:34:09.734
Um, you know, like, something like, you know, Drift is more of a, um, something I'm looking at as an example there. I also really love art.

230
00:34:09.794 --> 00:34:14.244
I'm, like, obsessed with art maga- European art magazines [laughs] like Frieze and Spike. Yeah.

231
00:34:14.254 --> 00:34:28.854
And so, like, I, I'm looking toward, you know, the publications that are recognizing, like, crisis, um, in a real way, and, and bringing that into their work, and, and trying to, you know, actually kind of wrestle with things in a real way.

232
00:34:28.894 --> 00:34:30.894
And so for me, that's, that...

233
00:34:30.934 --> 00:34:50.093
My idea, my idea for a publication that would kind of be the foundation of this idea that, [laughs] that I have, um, it really would, uh, you know, combine the literary food writing, um, restaurant stuff, humor, all these things that we come to kind of expect, and, and lifestyle stuff.

234
00:34:50.114 --> 00:35:01.144
But I, I want it to be set, I want the writing to be set in the real world- Yeah... and not in the world of, like, you know, luxury- Well, the, it's, it's the values... drift. Going back to what you'd written- Yeah...

235
00:35:01.154 --> 00:35:07.894
it's your values that you said about independence, a strong point of view, humor, rigor, and a reverence towards power, right? It's, it's- Yeah, yeah... a publication that represents all of those.

236
00:35:08.014 --> 00:35:16.714
Um, so in March 2024, a year ago, you wrote an essay called Securing the Brand Bag, which is kind of... Reading that was how I picked up on you wanting to start a publication.

237
00:35:16.754 --> 00:35:23.414
You write, "I know that if I were to launch a bigger publication, there would need to be ads in addition to a subscriber base. It's how the economic cookie crumbles.

238
00:35:23.494 --> 00:35:32.174
In my fantasy of my future magazine and publishing effort, I have rigorous rules for who fits the standards of a company who can advertise with me. [laughs] I also know I'm naive."

239
00:35:32.614 --> 00:35:37.594
Um- [laughs] And you kind of start this essay writing about brand trips, and you say- Yeah...

240
00:35:37.604 --> 00:35:47.714
"I haven't been on a press trip since 2019, and I don't see myself doing them again without a lot of different conditions being met." And I was curious what those conditions could be.

241
00:35:47.724 --> 00:35:59.954
[sighs] So the funny thing is, the last brand trip I went on, 2019, to Cognac, France, um, fantastic. I used to write about cocktails a lot- Okay... and so, like, that was, that was why I was there.

242
00:36:00.054 --> 00:36:12.144
Um, I ended up getting food poisoning at the end of it. [gasps] And the, the essay I ended up writing about this brand trip was about throwing up. [laughs] That's, that's brilliant.

243
00:36:12.254 --> 00:36:19.714
It was called Of Cognac and Vomit- [laughs]... and it ended up being a notable essay in Best American Travel Writing that year. So,

244
00:36:20.614 --> 00:36:28.814
you know, I was notable in Best American Travel Writing, but then for a long time I never got invited again on a tri- [laughs] on a trip. Anyway- You wrote a piece too good for them. Too rigorous. That, that...

245
00:36:28.854 --> 00:36:38.854
It was just too rigorous about my puking. Um, anyway. [laughs] But also, that goes back to, like, Mold. Like, Mold, like, that's a magazine that'll write about waste and, and the, the uglier sides of things.

246
00:36:39.254 --> 00:36:52.594
Anyway, but, um, I, I... The conditions of, of the press trip thing for me are just that I would be able to write what I wanted to write- Mm-hmm... and not f- but the thing is that press trips make you just feel bullied.

247
00:36:52.904 --> 00:37:01.114
And now, frankly, they don't need me. They just have influencers, and they fly them. Yes. They treat them much nicer from what I've- Actually, wait... can tell. This is something I- Yeah...

248
00:37:01.134 --> 00:37:05.244
one of my pet ideas that I haven't fully solidified, is the difference between a creator and an influencer. Right.

249
00:37:05.254 --> 00:37:10.174
And I don't know that there is one, but, uh, it's the, it's the goal of this project to, to make those differences.

250
00:37:10.214 --> 00:37:17.684
[laughs] And my-My theory, or my, how I've positioned, positioned it, is like there isn't really so much a thing as an influencer anymore.

251
00:37:17.714 --> 00:37:27.314
Everyone has had to become a content creator, because to me the content creator side, um, is more about the craft. You can't just post the- Yeah... expertly posed Instagram photo anymore and call it a day.

252
00:37:27.374 --> 00:37:36.264
May- maybe a few people. But influencing is more of like y- yet another revenue stream available- Yeah... to the content creator, and what it is is to act as a freelance marketer, where besides- Yeah...

253
00:37:36.274 --> 00:37:43.974
any skill you have in copywriting and photography, um, it's your, your inbuilt audience that you're also selling. So I... Does... Do you agree, like that's what...

254
00:37:43.993 --> 00:37:47.374
Like influencing is a thing a creator can do, and that's what it is?

255
00:37:47.914 --> 00:37:58.334
This is really interesting, and I like this, and it reminds me of a, a TikTok [laughs] that I saw yesterday where someone was talking about authenticity creators- Mm... versus like ad-based creators. Mm. Okay.

256
00:37:58.474 --> 00:38:04.194
And it was interesting analysis of this. I li- I like to see the armchair anal- analysis on TikTok.

257
00:38:04.234 --> 00:38:14.244
And like so she was saying that the people that pe- that are f- get follows, and I would think of like if someone like Benton McLintock- Mm... who I don't know if you know his- No... his videos on TikTok.

258
00:38:14.674 --> 00:38:20.234
So he's someone who you like and follow his videos 'cause he's really, really funny, and he has a very unique point of view.

259
00:38:20.314 --> 00:38:26.614
And because he doesn't come from money, he like is actually talking about real things a lot of the time. Mm-hmm.

260
00:38:26.644 --> 00:38:34.713
Um, he has like a character who like is talking about the water wars of like [laughs] the year 2070 or something. Yes, water wars. Anyway, so yeah, so he's really... He's funny.

261
00:38:34.974 --> 00:39:01.414
Um, and he'll do ads sometimes, but he's one of these creators that falls into the box of people don't watch and support and like and comment on his videos if they're ads, and then that makes it harder for him to make a living versus someone like, I don't know, I mean, Alex Earl might skirt most of those- You wrote a good piece about this, one of the ones I read last night, where it's like there are these, some people who when they post, like you were s- talking about somebody who works with, uh, the, the brand that does the Quadratini wafer cookies.

262
00:39:01.434 --> 00:39:07.494
Yeah. And how like she did an ad and it worked perfectly with what she does and her audience, and people were supporting like, "I love this ad," in the comments- Yes, yeah...

263
00:39:07.514 --> 00:39:17.514
because that's the kind of audience and relationship with her audience she's built. Right. Justine Doron, the- Okay, yeah... she was a, a food creator, de- recipe developer. She put out a cookbook.

264
00:39:17.674 --> 00:39:24.154
W- again, it, it does speak to how difficult it is to, to decide what someone is [laughs] anymore- Yeah... when our work is online.

265
00:39:24.574 --> 00:39:36.974
Um, but yeah, I think that there's, there's, there is this barrier that happens when, when you're f- and I think it would happen for me, you know, if I just all of a sudden published an ad in my newsletter for something.

266
00:39:37.014 --> 00:39:45.174
It would be, it would be very strange. Um- 'Cause you're so critical in your like, your whole- Yeah... you're very, you write so much about like questioning these things and the- Yes... the questioning power, et cetera.

267
00:39:45.334 --> 00:39:45.973
[laughs] Yeah.

268
00:39:46.034 --> 00:39:58.124
And I mean, I think that, I mean, frankly like I would rather not go down that road because I think it's just one other road that's anoth- tons and tons of work on or to go nowhere, and also might collapse at any moment too.

269
00:39:58.154 --> 00:40:06.534
You've done so much work that allows you to, to do the more- Exactly... rigorous like magazine experiment, and you kind of- Yeah... again, you're not a creator, you're a writer, and you like- Exactly...

270
00:40:06.594 --> 00:40:10.134
constantly made decisions against that. Um, uh, uh, before you...

271
00:40:10.154 --> 00:40:16.834
We've kind of moved on already from your, your newsletter and the, the, the, the details of the business, but I did wanna ask about the weekly salons and- Right...

272
00:40:16.954 --> 00:40:27.894
uh, which it's kind of a thing for your paid subscribers every Monday at 3, uh 3:00 PM EST, live chat, a hangout, a space to build camaraderie as, as you write. Um- Yeah... yeah. What's, what's the culture there?

273
00:40:27.934 --> 00:40:40.254
What's the community? Who are the people in your audience, and how do they relate to, to you and to each other? Well, it's a lot of other writers. Um, it's a lot of academics. Um, it's a lot of, you know, researchers.

274
00:40:40.334 --> 00:40:46.864
Uh, it, lots of people who are kind of in the s- touching the same fields- Mm... that I, I write about or work in. Yeah.

275
00:40:46.974 --> 00:40:59.894
Uh, but- These, what's, w- w- w- wait, would you say that most of the people who pay for your newsletter are these people who are also kind of in this industry and are paying because they want the critical thinking about th- th- this industry being like food media, basically?

276
00:41:00.654 --> 00:41:08.794
I don't think a lot of nec- I don't think it's necessarily food media people or like the higher echelon of like who people think of when they think of as food writers.

277
00:41:08.874 --> 00:41:20.694
It's definitely people who, you know, uh, I have journalists, but like physics journalists. Mm. And, uh, people, lots of people in PhD programs, lots of bakers who use alternative grains.

278
00:41:20.754 --> 00:41:27.854
Like [laughs] it's a very, it's a very specific, uh, niche that I occupy. Um, someone researches wildfires.

279
00:41:27.934 --> 00:41:42.224
You know, I have, I have a very specific, um, audience of people who are interested in food, but they're also interested in climate change and ecology and food, like food systems more than they're interested- Well, y- you're more in, I mean, you're like a systems writer almost more than you're a food writer.

280
00:41:42.244 --> 00:41:50.354
Yes, yes. Exactly. And that's how you're able to write so well about digital media and, and, and online work and the career economy as well. Like you are really good at understanding and making understandable systems.

281
00:41:50.974 --> 00:41:58.444
Oh, thank you. [laughs] Yeah. Well, actually, uh, w- w- okay, another, I wanna move on to another question, but I wanna hear more about the weekly salons [laughs] first. Sure.

282
00:41:58.474 --> 00:42:06.964
Well, no, we just, we kind of come in and we say, I'm like basically, "Hey, guys. What's up? What's going on?" Like, "Here's what I'm working on," or, "I read this article. What do you guys think?"

283
00:42:07.034 --> 00:42:17.324
And I ask everyone, like, you know, "What are you reading or watching or working on?" And, and so people can kind of share, they can also share resources. People share their, you know, their cooking inspiration. Mm-hmm.

284
00:42:17.594 --> 00:42:24.114
Um, this Monday someone made a whole meal 'cause they were inspired by the conversation in, in the salon. Like so that inspired what they made for dinner.

285
00:42:24.574 --> 00:42:30.974
Um, la- last week someone picked up a book in their local free library because someone else had mentioned it in the salon.

286
00:42:31.314 --> 00:42:42.234
[laughs] So it's like it's, it's something where like it really does influence people's like material, like tactile lives away from social media. And so that's kind of what I wanted, wanted it to be, is a way for...

287
00:42:42.304 --> 00:42:55.874
Because I do think that like depending on where you live and what your life is like on a day-to-day basis, you might be someone who's really into literature and food and, and thinking about, you know, all these issues, but you might not have people around you in your day-to-day life to talk about those things with.

288
00:42:56.203 --> 00:43:04.034
Mm-hmm. And so for me that's why I did the, do the salons and I do the book club because, um, it's just a way to kind of make space, you know?

289
00:43:04.174 --> 00:43:13.274
'Cause it might not be every week you come on and have the chat, but it might be a week where you n- you kinda feel like you need someone to talk to. Yeah, it's like your neighborhood bar or something. Exactly, yeah.

290
00:43:13.304 --> 00:43:20.434
Yeah. Like, uh, you, you come be a regular at the bar and have a drink on Monday afternoon. [laughs] And so, um, and so that's kind of the space I wanted to create.

291
00:43:20.474 --> 00:43:32.354
And to put-Folks in conversation because I was realizing how much my readers had in common and I was like, "I need to figure out a way to, to put folks in contact more." And also the book club was a way for me to...

292
00:43:32.894 --> 00:43:49.934
The, the salons, the book club, these are ways for me to like use my newsletter to develop and further things that I'm interested in rather than like I used to develop recipes a lot, and I, I, I like developing recipes, but when you have to develop a recipe like every week or every other week, it becomes a, a different beast.

293
00:43:50.034 --> 00:43:58.624
Um [laughs] Yeah. And so these are ways that- [clears throat]... that like actually give energy back to me because I'm actually talking to people. We're like really like getting into it, so yeah. Yeah.

294
00:43:58.694 --> 00:44:02.254
Um, okay, so there's over 40,000 people in the audience.

295
00:44:02.494 --> 00:44:14.504
Um, a- I'm curious where they've come from, and what I'm, what I kind of expect, my impression is that you were early on Substack, so you've kind of like ridden the, like with any platform that is, you know, so discovery-based, you've ridden that- Yeah...

296
00:44:14.614 --> 00:44:25.253
wave of, of being on there and being a quality, a quality presence for, for years. So people have gone to you, you get bigger, more people come. Um, and now you're kind of at the p- at the point where you're like,

297
00:44:26.374 --> 00:44:35.194
maybe you're leaving. I've seen you talking a bit about that. But then it r- represents a big financial investment. Yeah. Um, kinda getting ahead of the sled, the skis here. Yeah. But, um, yeah.

298
00:44:35.254 --> 00:44:44.644
Has it just been like kind of that early platform surfing growth? Well, no. I think for me it was that I was on Twitter and really active on Twitter. Oh. Yeah, yeah. Mm-hmm.

299
00:44:44.674 --> 00:44:55.934
Yeah, so from 20, like for a million years before 2020 I was really active on Twitter. You scoured it. I couldn't find a trace. Oh, good. Thank you. Yeah. Thank gosh. [laughs] Um- I tried... so I, I was...

300
00:44:55.974 --> 00:45:05.334
And then, uh, also, like the only thing I'll, I'll thank Elon for is making- [laughs]... such a disaster that no one can find any of my tweets. Yeah. So I, you know, was really, I was not huge.

301
00:45:05.514 --> 00:45:14.914
I left Twitter with 30,000 followers, but I was, you know, I was just a consistent tweeter. I was in, you know- And that, that meant more then. Yeah. And I was in that like journalist like vibe, food writing vibe.

302
00:45:14.974 --> 00:45:23.754
I was like, you know, it was like a s- the water cooler for you and your colleagues, blah, blah, blah. So when I started publishing the newsletter, I would share it there, and so I think I had a lot of growth from that.

303
00:45:24.034 --> 00:45:32.794
Um, I- Mm-hmm... this, but my newsletter's grown very, very steadily. I, one thing I don't like about Substack is the growth padding that kind of happens when- Yeah... you're on the app.

304
00:45:32.874 --> 00:45:37.224
Like, um, I don't really like the recommend- If I could opt out of recommendations, I would.

305
00:45:37.234 --> 00:45:48.294
[laughs] Like, I do think if I were growing solely organically, I would probably still be at 25,000 free subs- subscribers It's crazy actually that you can't opt out. Yeah, I don't... Uh, maybe you can, but I try- No...

306
00:45:48.304 --> 00:45:58.203
not to get too in the weeds- Yeah... on settings and stuff. Yeah, yeah. But, um, you know, I have, and I know this because like, uh, or not I know this, but like I have 25,000 hyper-engaged readers.

307
00:45:58.254 --> 00:46:06.564
Like those are the people, and those are the people I wanna capture more of. Does that mean they open like, uh, three ep- They op-... issues a month, or what? Or, they open within 24 hours. Oh, okay.

308
00:46:06.574 --> 00:46:17.544
So it's, yeah, so that like for me is the, that's the base, and then everything beyond that is sort of extra. Um, obviously- So wait, so your open rate is like, is, is like re- very high. No, we don't have- It's...

309
00:46:17.544 --> 00:46:25.894
to get into the detailed statistics. [laughs] But yeah. Well, right now I'm taking a break from looking at my stat- Okay. I'm like taking a Q1 break from- Yeah... looking at stats because just for my mental health.

310
00:46:26.054 --> 00:46:31.814
And you're working on the book. Um- Yeah. Yeah, I have the, the I'm in the book edits. I'm like, I just, you know what, I'm gonna...

311
00:46:32.064 --> 00:46:38.034
I, I'm very like I've, I've had to try and have a lot of like mindfulness practices [laughs] around my work. Yeah, let's move on. Let's move on. I don't wanna- Yeah, yeah, yeah. [laughs] No, no, no.

312
00:46:38.114 --> 00:46:41.703
But I like, those are the people that I wanna capture by having a paywall. Mm-hmm.

313
00:46:41.774 --> 00:46:56.994
Like I'm like if you open this every single week and I'm not getting more of you on board to pay for it, and I understand that like people don't want more stuff in their inbox or whatever it is, and I do send out like an extra email every week to the paid subscribers, but like it's really a low lift, you know?

314
00:46:57.054 --> 00:47:10.074
Yeah. And so I, I, I wanna just capture more of those folks. Um, like my goal is to get to 3,000 paid subscribers for sure. Nice. Good goal. But I'm at like 2,200. That's [laughs] still really good. Yeah. Um, yeah.

315
00:47:10.694 --> 00:47:20.644
Uh, okay. Yeah. Go, I w- I do wanna move on to that systems conversation- Oh, sure... that we referred to earlier. So again, this is a quote from your March 2024 Securing the Brand Bag essay.

316
00:47:20.914 --> 00:47:31.814
You say, "I don't want to rain on anyone's parade. It's hard to make a living out here, and more people deserve to do so in order to tell new stories, give new recipes, provide fresh inspiration.

317
00:47:32.174 --> 00:47:40.534
But I want to ask questions about what is really happening when brands are in charge of the money and thus the narrative. What food media are we building? Could we be doing it better?"

318
00:47:41.113 --> 00:47:53.894
Um, so that kinda last line reminded me of one of my pet definitions of creator, which is one of the more like kind of abstracted and less useful ones, but it's just somebody who contributes to the corpus of the internet, which- Yeah...

319
00:47:53.954 --> 00:48:04.474
like reading that made me think of, you know, the, how a- agriculture and like food businesses contributes to literally the corpus of the world and, and its people and, and individual people, right? Yeah.

320
00:48:05.164 --> 00:48:15.214
Um, so I was wondering if you had any more like analogies for creator economy, digital media ecosystem, whatever, that come from the food world.

321
00:48:15.334 --> 00:48:24.444
I think an obvious one is like c- food co-ops, co-op models, and cooperative, cooperatively owned media businesses like your Defector, Hearing Things, et cetera. Yeah.

322
00:48:24.534 --> 00:48:31.334
Um, but yeah, I think it's, I think there's, it's a fertile ground for, for an- analogy there. Absolutely.

323
00:48:31.374 --> 00:48:41.434
And, and to, to sort of decentralize the, the production of, of this stuff, and this for me is, is sort of what I would like to do with A New Food.

324
00:48:41.474 --> 00:48:52.634
But obviously I'm, I'm sort of in beginning stages of thinking about it, but I would really like it to be sort of an ecosystem where there's also people which sou- it sounds like Medium, but it's not.

325
00:48:52.734 --> 00:49:00.674
But like where people who are already selected could use it as their, as their outlet as well. Mm-hmm. And so it's a bit more, it's less hierarchical.

326
00:49:00.794 --> 00:49:12.934
It's more horizontal in terms of who's able to have access to the audience, um, and access obviously then to, to the funding and, and the money. Yeah. Um, and so that's sort of what I, what I have been thinking about.

327
00:49:13.314 --> 00:49:30.014
The, but for me, yeah, like it's, it's just interesting to me this, this model we've built without a lot of questioning, um, where, you know, obviously like, you know, you, Anna Wintour and what she decides is, goes into an editorial is going to be influenced by who's spent the most ad money.

328
00:49:30.084 --> 00:49:38.114
Yeah. Like we know this. We know how that works. But at the same time, the, the brand isn't gonna be at the photo shoot. The brand isn't gonna decide which model is wearing it.

329
00:49:38.154 --> 00:49:46.444
The brand, like there's a lot of things that have been just given up in the, in the influencer economy, the creator economy.

330
00:49:46.834 --> 00:49:54.690
A lot of control has been given up in order to-Secure the bag in order to get the, the brand deal and get the money and to be amenable and to be...

331
00:49:55.210 --> 00:50:07.830
You know, it's very different when you are, I don't know, when you're like a talent who is really, really valued for your talent- Mm-hmm... and not for your, uh, broad appeal. It's just a different beast, you know?

332
00:50:07.930 --> 00:50:22.070
Like, and that's why I d- I think I do hold onto being a writer more than anything because I don't want anything to be dependent on, you know, what I look like first of all, and I don't want it to be dependent on how appealing I can be to a broad swath of people.

333
00:50:22.430 --> 00:50:32.790
Like, I mean, I have a pop- for, for a person like a vegetarian, you know, ecosocialist [laughs] I have a popular newsletter. But like, um, you know, I, I just don't...

334
00:50:32.910 --> 00:50:38.260
I just find that a really, really bad space- Well, let me, let me get you a quote-... of culture to be working in... from another one of your essays- Yeah [laughs]...

335
00:50:38.260 --> 00:50:42.300
which is the, uh, when you wrote this month on the politics of attention in 2025. Yeah.

336
00:50:42.330 --> 00:50:58.350
You say, um, "The more people look to individuals, even well-compensated individuals with management teams, the more reliant internet culture is on learning from or being entertained by content creators whose faces are the key to their work, the more the audience is asking people to exhaust and exploit themselves."

337
00:50:58.750 --> 00:51:09.310
Yeah. And I say, I say that even about people who are doing really, really well. Like, there, there is no end to the demand, and that's what really terrifies me.

338
00:51:09.390 --> 00:51:18.210
Um, and there is no demand to how appealing people have to be, and there is- Mm... no end to, like, the possibility that you'll lose it all because of like, you know... I don't know.

339
00:51:18.270 --> 00:51:29.470
It's just, it's just such a precarious situation that has been created, and it's been for the gain of ou- I mean, Amazon. Everybody has an Amazon storefront. Yeah. It's been great for Amazon.

340
00:51:29.510 --> 00:51:40.910
It's been great for, for fast fashion. It's been great for Zara. Like, it's been great. This, this hyper-production cycle has, has created a hyper-consumption cycle that no one kn- really understands how to break out of.

341
00:51:41.260 --> 00:51:51.830
And, you know, that, that's the thing that scares me about it, is that we're not really focusing anymore on developing people who have really, really, really good skills [laughs] in one thing.

342
00:51:52.210 --> 00:51:57.110
We're developing people who are really good at moving to the whims of the masses and brands.

343
00:51:57.190 --> 00:52:10.070
Like, two things that people who are creating what we are thinking about as culture, that's not, that's not really a great thing. You know? Like- It's a race to the bottom. Yeah. Exactly. Yeah. Yeah.

344
00:52:10.210 --> 00:52:11.830
I think, I don't know, that there's like a lot...

345
00:52:12.170 --> 00:52:19.110
a line in there I guess too about like the, the commodification of information and, like, factory farming and again, going back to the corpus and like- Yeah, yeah, yeah...

346
00:52:19.130 --> 00:52:21.970
you know, the you are what you eat and you are the information you consume.

347
00:52:21.990 --> 00:52:32.290
And going back to the beginning of our conversation about, like, decentralizing meaning and, like, l- losing media literacy and, like, that being the poi- uh, now I'm g- I'm starting to get a little Tin Hatty here.

348
00:52:32.440 --> 00:52:39.930
[laughs] Um, but, um, I wanna talk about your relationship with platforms. Sure. So one more quote. You say, "The newsletter form has..." In that same essay.

349
00:52:39.959 --> 00:52:46.110
"The newsletter form has been successful across demographics because it gives a quiet space somewhere between social media and print.

350
00:52:46.210 --> 00:52:53.080
It provides an outlet for an intimate reply not publicly shared and potentially driving unwanted attention." Um, so I don't wanna get...

351
00:52:53.110 --> 00:53:00.890
We've talked a little bit about platforms already and I don't wanna get, like, so deep into it. Yeah. Um, but, uh, yeah, yeah, you used to be really active on Twitter. You're not there anymore.

352
00:53:01.010 --> 00:53:12.900
You are quite active on Substack Notes. Um- Yeah... and again, you've talked about getting away. Like, is your... What is your dream? Like, you are somebody who is good at using platforms to your advantage- Yeah...

353
00:53:12.900 --> 00:53:24.400
um, and, like, not being subsumed by them. But what is, like, your dream relationship to platforms? Oof. Um, I don't know. I think I would [laughs]... Why is that such a big question?

354
00:53:24.790 --> 00:53:35.510
I mean, that speaks to, like, the psychological, like, the imaginative hole that platforms have on, on one who spends a lot of time online, um, eh, that it's very difficult to kind of disentangle.

355
00:53:35.550 --> 00:53:43.710
Like, imagining disentangling myself, like, from, say, Substack is very difficult because it, it has been the source of my livelihood since 2020.

356
00:53:44.250 --> 00:53:55.290
Um, but at the same time, I, you know, I can kind of also because I've been there since 2020, I can see what they're doing, which is- Mm... like, way more focused on the app and on owning...

357
00:53:55.330 --> 00:54:08.850
They're owning the following lists and, and, um, people can't upgrade on the app for- Yeah... whatever Apple reasons. But there's so many things that they just decided to collect everybody in this hog pen.

358
00:54:09.010 --> 00:54:11.080
[laughs] I, wait- And like- Let me, let me read- Yeah...

359
00:54:11.110 --> 00:54:23.570
actually I'm reminded on with Daisy on the T- on our other po- podcast, Tasteland, um, we interviewed Mike Pepe a c- few weeks ago, who just had his book Against Platforms come out, and I, I'm, I'm kinda realizing as I ask you that question it's like, well, what is a platform?

360
00:54:23.970 --> 00:54:34.520
Right. Um, and he... It's kind of a question he tries to answer, and he, he... I, I'm gonna read some of the... I wrote these in my notes for that podcast. A few kind of e- explicit and implicit, um, definitions.

361
00:54:34.570 --> 00:54:43.450
Let's see. "Platforms are defined less by their cultural characteristics and more by what they enable. Platforms, the capitalist remains of d- failed digital utopias.

362
00:54:43.970 --> 00:54:53.800
Private for-profit platforms where labor is content, citizens are users swathed in data, and difference, nuance, and focus is something that instant and constant connectivity must blast away.

363
00:54:53.890 --> 00:54:57.990
Um, networked, globalized, and constantly surveilled data exchanges.

364
00:54:58.090 --> 00:55:08.310
Um, inno- innovation that intervened not just through the engineering of computer science but into the social and the political fabric upon which goods and services are exchanged. That innovation was the platform."

365
00:55:08.870 --> 00:55:22.320
And finally, "The primary feature of the platform is that it enables users to enact or participate in some activity without authorities." Um, so it's [laughs] grab bag for you and- Yeah, yeah... [laughs] but yeah.

366
00:55:22.350 --> 00:55:27.890
No, I mean, it's int- uh, that's an interesting... I need to read that book now because- It's good. You should, yeah... I'm, I'm really interested in that. The...

367
00:55:28.410 --> 00:55:33.380
So, I mean, for me, when I think of a platform, I guess it's like a two-prong meaning. Mm-hmm.

368
00:55:33.380 --> 00:55:41.840
It's the, the tool that you're using is, is the platform of whatever you're using it for, but also then people talk about, like, having a platform. Yeah.

369
00:55:41.870 --> 00:55:52.290
So it's like how many followers, how many subscribers, whatever that is. Um, and, and that, the, any sort of responsibility that one might believe comes with that. Which is that content capital idea that- Exactly...

370
00:55:52.300 --> 00:55:56.210
I think, um- The content capital... Jake Horn writes about, yeah. Yeah. And so the...

371
00:55:56.510 --> 00:56:06.694
You know, I think that in terms of-I would really like to take my subscribers somewhere where I have a little bit more control- Yeah... over the situation.

372
00:56:06.774 --> 00:56:16.433
Because I, again, like for me, and I'm in a privileged position for this because I know that a lot of people who are just starting out or have smaller- They need that growth... um, lists, they need that growth.

373
00:56:16.614 --> 00:56:24.594
I, at this point, for me, I don't need it and I don't necessarily want... Like, for me, I want conversions and I don't necessarily need to keep growing my, my free base.

374
00:56:25.034 --> 00:56:35.344
Of course, the thing is, of course the free base would like significantly dwindle if I left Substack- Mm-hmm... 'cause I wouldn't have this constantly like self-replenishing- And it, and people still unsubscribe... pool.

375
00:56:35.394 --> 00:56:41.214
Exactly. Every week. Every time you send, every week you send it and they unsubscribe. So like, um, like that churn is, is part of it.

376
00:56:41.314 --> 00:56:52.324
But like I, I really would rather focus on, on a smaller set of people than to have kind of, I don't know, people who don't really... You know, I, like I- Yeah...

377
00:56:52.354 --> 00:56:55.464
sit, for example, like the chat and- You don't want scale. Yeah, I don't want scale.

378
00:56:55.474 --> 00:57:05.254
Like, and, uh, for my like chat, I never let [laughs] people reply to anything, and it's because a lot of the time they haven't read me. They don't really know what I'm about.

379
00:57:05.774 --> 00:57:14.834
Um, and it's just the, the engagement is such of a, of a caliber that is just not worthwhile. Like, and I know that sounds kind of mean. Not even a caliber. [laughs] Yeah.

380
00:57:14.874 --> 00:57:22.174
It sounds mean, but at the same time it's just like I, I really, I've cut off all channels for people other, other than knowing my email. Well, this is, it's not mean.

381
00:57:22.214 --> 00:57:31.414
This goes back to the social pos- the, the positive social friction that we were- Yes. Yes... talking about like almost an hour ago now. [laughs] Yeah. And I don't want ne- like, I just don't want negativity. I don't...

382
00:57:31.454 --> 00:57:41.504
Like, I know from being on Twitter for so long like how much my own mental health, it will be degraded by like some nonsense, [laughs] um, like getting myself into a nonsense conversation. Yeah.

383
00:57:41.514 --> 00:57:49.184
Like, I just wanna avoid that. And like that's made it e- me able to do a lot more work and s- and I would rather be doing work. Like... [laughs] Yeah.

384
00:57:49.214 --> 00:57:57.064
So speaking of doing work, um, you have, a, a year ago you announced that your upcoming book, On Eating. There's that on. I, yeah. So that stretch again. I mean- On Eating is coming out...

385
00:57:57.074 --> 00:58:02.834
I never know what it's- Uh-huh... gonna actually be the ti- you know, because it just, just- Oh, yeah, 'cause that was just in the marketplace. Yeah, yeah. Yeah, yeah. Till you sold it. Yeah.

386
00:58:02.924 --> 00:58:11.594
[laughs] Um, but you're in the edit phase right now. Um, and in a recent issue of the newsletter you wrote something I liked. Personally, I've never written anything longer than like 10,000 words, like a college paper.

387
00:58:12.234 --> 00:58:18.614
Um, but I write, you know, 1,200 words or whatever every week for the newsletter. Um, but you say that, "The book is

388
00:58:19.554 --> 00:58:35.414
a space where I'm able to play at a grander scale than essays allow, and after the experience of writing my first book, being a crash course on how to sustain a thought over tens of thousands of words, this time around I'm more interested in structure and what kind of experience I want to construct for the reader."

389
00:58:35.774 --> 00:58:46.694
Um, so kind of probably the last question here, but I'm just, I would love for you to speak more about that, and like the experience of writing the book as opposed to the kind of constant grind of, of writing the newsletter.

390
00:58:47.594 --> 00:59:00.374
Well, I, the writing a book is just such a different beast, and because my first book was, n- you know, a, a cultural history of, of plant-based food in the last like 50 years of the US, so it was very like straightforward.

391
00:59:00.474 --> 00:59:09.394
Um, the way I wrote it hopefully wasn't very straightforward or dry, but it was, it was just very straightforward in what the story that I had to tell- Mm-hmm... and the, and the kind of the, what had to be done.

392
00:59:09.434 --> 00:59:18.434
Like, the work was really in that sort of like making a point in a way that doesn't, I don't know, fold in on, on itself [laughs] over and over again.

393
00:59:18.794 --> 00:59:33.754
And so, um, writing this book, which is more of a memoir, so it's a lot more focused on me, but it's sort of like i- it's, it's a kind of a balance of memoir and more of the, the systems writing that you were mentioning, but through different ingredients.

394
00:59:33.764 --> 00:59:39.614
Mm. So it's a memoir through ingredients and, and the ways in which those ingredients come to us in, in history. And so

395
00:59:40.794 --> 00:59:52.154
it, it was more, for me, it's more about how do I do the, a balance between those things and not go too far in either direction. Um- Yeah... so, you know, to just keep the reader absorbed but not

396
00:59:53.094 --> 01:00:04.754
feel like I'm being self-absorbed, [laughs] let's say. Um, but also, you know, my editor, who is fantastic at Hachette, Renee, she, she was like, "People are going to want more of the personal."

397
01:00:04.814 --> 01:00:09.634
So, like my natural inclination is to like kind of throw my, sprinkle myself in. Yeah.

398
01:00:09.694 --> 01:00:25.124
And so my project with this was kind of m- finding more balance in how to, how to make myself the subject, um, while also actually giving, giving the reader what I actually like more, more naturally write about- Yeah...

399
01:00:25.134 --> 01:00:35.054
which is like, yeah, apples and mythology and stuff. [laughs] Have you read, as an aside, have you read, um, um, the book I'm currently reading is Hanif Abdurraqib's There's Always This Year.

400
01:00:35.614 --> 01:00:40.294
I know I need to read it, but I didn't wanna read it while I was writing- No, 'cause then-... because-... you'd absorb too much of it. Yeah. [laughs] Yeah.

401
01:00:40.334 --> 01:00:47.894
It's really, but when you talk about like structure and stuff, like I've, it's, I've never read a book with this specific structure. And an- anyways, he's a great writer and- Yes. Uh, but this is about you.

402
01:00:48.274 --> 01:00:58.334
Um- [laughs]... I think we could end it there, though. Check out the book when it comes out. Where do, where should people go to find the newsletter? aliciakennedy.news. Perfect. Go find it. Thank you for coming on.

403
01:00:58.414 --> 01:00:58.834
Thank you.

404
01:01:00.314 --> 01:01:18.774
[outro music]