We knew that there was suddenly a gap in the market. You obviously saw it as the real opportunity that it was and ran with it. How have you gotten to 190,000 subscribers? This is all practice.
You get less fearful the more competent you get. The more competent you get, the more confident you get. But you only get there by reps. What about the next generation of journalists?
People increasingly are going to follow individuals over corporations. That trend is looking more and more like an unstoppable force right now. Yes, that's happening. It's not a net positive, but it's what's happening.
Welcome back to the Creator Spotlight podcast.
Today, we're speaking with award-winning financial reporter Phil Rosen, who's the co-founder and editor-in-chief of Opening Bell Daily, a daily finance newsletter with, I believe, over 200,000 subscribers, right?
Hundred and ninety. Hundred and ninety, excuse me. With over 190,000 subscribers. Almost 200,000.
Um, he also has bylines in Business Insider, Fortune, Yahoo Finance, BuzzFeed News, and plenty of others, and is also a twice-published bestselling author.
We'll be speaking about writing as a craft, a habit, and a business, and building an independent newsletter-first media company. Phil, thank you for coming on. Thank you for having me, Francis.
That was a hell of an intro. [laughs] Appreciate it. You, you made it easy. You, uh...
[laughs] One thing I'll say is in researching you, I mean, you are quite prolific, but also even, even on your LinkedIn, it's- I can tell that it's updated frequently.
You, uh, you make it very easy to, to describe what you do. Yeah.
I, uh, you know, if I ever wanted to hide for any reason, it would be extremely difficult to wipe out all the work I, I've published online, a- and that's probably, uh, in some ways not a good thing.
[laughs] But I, I try to stay, um, active as far as publishing as much as I can through writing, through video. Mm-hmm. Obviously, the newsletter's going a lot. Um, yeah, really trying to stay busy.
So okay, let's talk about that prolificity, I don't know if that's a word, about how prolific you are. Um, you've been writing on the internet I think for around eight years, and you have a...
You started with, I think with a self-hosted blog that's now on Substack. Used to be independently hosted.
Um, and I think even before that, you started a daily writing practice when you were, like, 19, and you would write a minimum of about 500 words or the, the length of a Moleskine journal, uh, when you were, when you were in college.
So I, I get the impression that the decision to do that was really foundational for you, uh, and I think that's something [laughs] I've tried to do in the past, but I don't currently do.
Um, was that, was that, like, a hard thing to do, let alone continue?
When I started journaling early college, I didn't know it at the time, but that was the best thing I could have ever done for myself, and that's what taught me, okay,
I love to write, and I think I can get really good at this because all it takes is practice. Mm-hmm.
And that's one of those things, sort of a, a mindset thing, that has carried through every- And you're an athlete, of course, which maps well here. Yes. Yeah. So, so a lifelong athlete, but, um, specifically to
the craft of writing, it's one of those things where if you just put in the time and the reps and the effort, you can be Hemingway. You can be whoever you wanted as long as you can, can do the, the work. Yeah.
And, um, that to me in college was so unbelievably exciting because I said, "Wow, I have no idea what I want to do with my life." I was getting this, uh, science degree. I was g- I was a pre-med major. Mm-hmm.
And, uh, I said, "If I just write a lot every single day, I could be, like, a writer full time."
And that became sort of a more and more viable career path as I went through college, as I graduated and continued writing every day, uh, starting my own blog, and it was a travel blog at the time. Mm-hmm.
Still had no idea what I was really going to write about. When did you... Wait, when did you get paid to write for the first time, besides, like, doing your own journaling and then travel blog? It took me...
I don't think I made a cent from writing until, like, uh, three, four years in. Mm-hmm. So I was writing, um, every day privately, and then once I launched the blog when I graduated college, this was, uh, 2018, um,
did that for about six months, and then that blog, I didn't know it, but it became a portfolio that I leveraged- Mm-hmm...
to get a job at an English newspaper, and I was actually living in Hong Kong at the time 'cause I went there to teach English, uh, sort of foregoing grad school in physiology at the time.
So I'd been accepted, and then I said, "You know what? This is not the path for me right now because I want to try to make it as a writer." And I didn't know what that meant.
I was so detached from the world of journalism and media at the time. I barely even read the news. That's how... You know, I w- I was so siloed in sort of the, the academics, the science. Mm-hmm.
Um, I read a lot of books, but news media and journalism wasn't on my radar at all. Uh, but the blog I was writing,
it got in front of the right person, who eventually hired me to work as an editor at this English newspaper in Hong Kong, and that was the first time I made, made money as a writer, which was three, four years after I started writing.
Okay. So there's a lot to talk about in between that we will go back to, but we should talk about Opening Bell Daily for a second- Sure... and what that is, why you started it.
So you launched it one year ago almost to the week. Um, this will come out, I think, two or three weeks after we record it, so it'll, it'll really be almost exactly a year at that time.
Um, tell us what Opening Bell Daily is and how it came to be. Opening Bell Daily is based around a financial newsletter that comes out every weekday, and we publish a research report on Sundays, so it's six days a week.
AndLet me tell you the backstory to it. So, uh- Mm-hmm... I used to work at Business Insider, did that for almost three years.
I was a reporter there covering markets, investing, Wall Street, and I was brought on to write their daily financial newsletter.
And at the time when I was brought on, um- Which was called 10 Things Before the Opening Bell, right? Correct.
And it no longer exists, um, but I was brought on to sort of revamp it, revitalize it, and it was a list of 10 headlines.
And then I came on and, uh, working really hard with my, my team, we built that into essentially a, a daily column. Mm-hmm. So then, uh, I was...
I had this great opportunity as a very young reporter to sort of have my own column and my own product, and that's very unusual in media, especially corporate media in a big company.
One question I wanted to ask is why people come to Opening Bell daily as opposed to any of the many other financial media products out there, including, you know, the, the other nine on that list of 10 you just mentioned.
Is it, is it because... This is kind of what you're saying, that there was a market gap when, when Business Insider decided to close down 10, 10 Things Before the Opening Bell, and that's why?
Plus, of course, your own audience and Anthony's audience. He has a sizable audience as well. Is it, is it, like, that personality-driven draw?
Or why, why do people come to Opening Bell daily as opposed to any other financial media product? That's a great question.
Hey, if you're enjoying this episode, make sure you subscribe to the podcast so you don't miss next week's episode. We release a new one every Thursday. Enjoy.
Um, when I ask my friends, "Where do you get your information from, uh, new- news media?" Mm-hmm. No one tells me they're going to CNN's website to scroll the stories on the website.
They tell me they go to YouTube, they go to Substack. They like, uh, you know, independent, independently operated media shops- Yeah...
where they know the person who's delivering the news, and they're not someone that's hiding behind a amorphous corporate entity, and that is a trend I don't see slowing down. And you see people leaving all the time.
Um, big-name anchors- Yeah... uh, hosts of these TV shows. You know, Tucker Carlson's the most, like, prominent example probably.
He got fired from Fox News, and he's bigger than ever, even though his Fox News primetime show was the biggest in, uh, cable TV, and he's even bigger as an independent figure.
Um, so you have that in the newsletter world as well.
Um, we're trying to make Opening Bell daily that household financial news name, and people increasingly are going to, my, my bet at least, follow, uh, individuals over corporations. Yeah. And, uh, I certainly do it.
My friends do it, even my, uh, colleagues in media. Well, I think the- They're-... the homepage, right, is, is... Like, for me, I use Gmail in the browser. Mm-hmm.
Uh, maybe I'm a, maybe I'm a bit of a dinosaur in doing that still, but that's my homepage, right? I open up Gmail first thing I get on my computer and the, and I've got [laughs]
70, 70 newsletters I already have subscribed to. Yeah. But that's my homepage. It's not like any give...
I go to, you know, a variety of other media companies' homepages, but the newsletter, or the, the, the, the email inbox is the homepage, and so the dozens of newsletters. Like, I create my own publication in there.
Of course, and that's what we all do. I do it too. I... Every morning I wake up, I read, uh, 15 newsletters, and then I kind of have a grasp of what's going on. I'm certainly not visiting, um,
websites to get my information, uh- Mm-hmm... right off the bat, uh, in the mornings. So- One... Wait.
One thing, one thing I wanted to get into here, um, is this, the relationship between, you know, newly independent journalists like yourself, um, and these media businesses.
This is a theme I've noticed, um, on this- [clears throat]... on this podcast talking to people where, like with you, right?
You're clearly very evidently a talented and driven person, but it's not clear to me that you would have started Opening Bell daily had you not spent multiple years working at Business Insider.
And this is, um, something you said on, um, on the Ice House podcast that, that episode came out a few days ago, that you met so many people there, you learned so much.
Um, and what I've noticed is, is people like you and a number of other people I've had on this show, they,
whether they leave the media organization by choice or by layoff, they might end up starting an independent product based around pretty much just exactly what they were doing.
Again, you're one of probably, I don't know, maybe almost a dozen people I've [laughs] spoken to in the past- Sure...
year by now who, who that represents, and I start to see these media companies almost like indie journalism startup incubators. What do you make of that? You know, I, I should clarify.
I think the world of everyone I worked with at Business Insider, and everyone there was very talented, very smart, and we had a great time together, and I think we did excellent work as a team and as a company.
And, um, I wouldn't have been able to do the things I'm doing now without going through corporate news. Yeah. And I think that that was an incredible learning experience for me. That doesn't mean I think it's the future.
Mm-hmm. I think you can go through, um, a great learning environment, job experience, workplace, meet great people, but that doesn't necessarily mean
therefore I'm gonna bet my livelihood on them staying or increasing relevance- Yeah... versus independent media. So that, that's sort of like a macro trend in media that I think is, um, to me, it's self-evident.
A lot of people in mainstream media would argue me on that, I think. You know, I, I have friends in every newsou- newsroom, uh, news outlet, and they think, um-That's not the case. Yeah.
And I, I think they certainly, uh, could argue that well. They're just making a different bet. Yeah. It, it, it's possible.
Um, yeah, independent media, you, you have, uh, MrBeast, you know, probably the most powerful media person in the world. Mm-hmm.
And he has a YouTube channel, and he's not, uh, he's not pandering for advertisers or clicks. He just creates awesome videos. I would disagree though. He- his whole thing is pandering for clicks.
That's, that's like his whole- But not for advertisers. Yeah. Okay, yeah. Corporate media, everything they put out,
whether the journalists want to acknowledge it or not, is ultimately for the business side to win over more advertisers. Yeah.
And that is, um, sort of a cold economic truth about media that a lot of journalists either ignore, don't like to talk about, or are unaware about. Mm-hmm.
And it was something I didn't pay attention to when I was at Business Insider. 'Cause there's supposed to be a firewall between- Yes... the editorial side and the business side. Yes.
And when you're an independent media shop, you, obviously you have to work both sides. Mm-hmm. And something I always wanted to do at Business Insider, they never let me, I said, "Hey, I write the product every day."
This was, you know, multiple years ago now. I said, um, "Can I get on these sales calls? Can I know- Yeah... what sponsors we're talking to?
I wanna learn how to do this to market and sell the product that I'm spending my full-time job on."
Which I think makes especially so much sense for someone like you who's literally writing about business [laughs] you know? You... I, I was very, uh...
I think I was so ignorant at the time, and so, um, there was so much I did not know. Still so much I don't know. Yeah. Um, but I knew I wanted to get involved on the business side to learn how all of this was working.
And- Well, tell me, tell me about some of like the biggest shocks or like hard lessons you've learned regarding that in the la- in the last year, 'cause I imagine you've had to learn a lot very quickly about- Yes...
how to do both sides of it at once. When you get on a call with a sponsor, um, I would say there's a 50/50 shot that the sponsor has never read the journalism and will never read the journalism.
[laughs] They wanna know the metrics- Numbers... the audience, you know, the, the click-through rate. And, um,
as a journalist, obviously the journalism is very important, but when I put on my business hat, you realize, okay, they have a point. They just wanna see a three bullet point list of numbers. Mm-hmm.
They're not looking at all the big names you're interviewing or all these, um, you know, hard-hitting, uh, database journalism you're doing, even though that's what I like. I love doing that stuff.
They just want to know do other people care, are other people reading- Yes... and who are those people, and are they likely to buy our products? Yes. And, um, they...
You know, so s- the sponsors wanna see audience demographics, uh, engagement, click-through rate, all those things.
And then as the journalist myself, I'm obviously prioritizing the journalism, uh, the truth seeking, the data- Mm-hmm... the charts, the visuals, all these things that make me love what I do.
Um, but I kind of have to put those aside, and in a way that's putting the ego aside to just tell sponsors, um, what they're looking for as far as like, "Here are the facts about the audience." Mm-hmm.
And, um, you know, that's a, uh, a truth that a lot of journalists in big newsrooms never have to like discuss in their day-to-day work. And, um, I think it's actually useful information to know. Um,
I, I find it useful as a journalist now, as a journalist- Mm-hmm... and founder. I definitely feel like I'm a better journalist now that I know and understand the business side, uh, a bit better. Mm-hmm. You know, I...
There's always, always more to learn, and I am not nearly as informed or intelligent as a lot of people in media, and I think there's so many people I look up to in media that are doing way,
uh, interesting and, and compelling, uh, things a- and working on interesting projects that I try to learn from every day. And- Mm-hmm... I'm certainly exposed to, um...
I'm just exposed to different things now compared to when I worked in a big corporation where I was so siloed in my specific, uh, you know, job essentially. Yeah.
So the, the bigger the company gets, generally speaking, um, in media and, uh, tech and other industries, the bigger the company gets, the more specified the work each individual will do. Yeah.
And that's how you optimize the performance of the company. However, that
in a lot of ways is a limiting factor for the individual because they're not able to put their hands in every single cookie jar that is available in the, in the company. I was just...
I'm currently reading, uh, Poor Charlie's Almanac- Of course... the, the Charlie Munger book.
And, uh, last night, I think it's like talk two in there, um, he was talking about this and bureaucracy and how like in a large company that is defined by bureaucracy, your only goal is to get the thing out of your inbox and into the next person's inbox when...
And he was talking about how they would try to find companies with management where it wa- it wasn't like that, where it was a little tighter and you were thinking about the whole thing, thinking about the tasks holistically instead of that like very blindered, like, "Okay, my part is done."
It's... I think in a lot of ways it's very good for you early in your career to specialize.
Like, if you can stay in your lane and master that lane, that will set you up to do other things in the future outside your lane. Mm-hmm.
But if you try to skip that step and do 10 lanes all at once when you're 22 years old-You're gonna get lost, and you're gonna get distracted, and you'll never, uh, not never, but it'll be harder to regain a specialty and focus.
Mm. So if I didn't do the corporate media route first, I definitely would not be as strong of a reporter. Well, wait. Okay, I wanna read something. Uh, I wanna quote you from something you wrote last November. Oh, God.
Okay. All right. "Creators, ahem, influencers establish themselves by building an audience around unique content. The savviest journalists leaving legacy media embrace the same playbook.
The difference between the two camps, however, is that the latter can capitalize on the reporting chops, contacts, and credibility gleaned from prior newsroom experience," which I fully agree here, but my point is that it's on people who learn these things and went to start their own companies to create new institutions that then can pass this knowledge on, right?
I should clarify, when I started Opening Bell Daily, the goal is not... was not and is not to build another Business Insider. Yeah. And I don't think people leaving these mainstream corporate media jobs,
they're not trying to rebuild the company they just left. No, no, no. They're-- Well, they're trying to build a new model, right? A new model, uh, sure. New models to be clear. Yeah. Yeah. It's never...
That's the whole point. It's not-- There's no one way. So I think we saw this a lot in sort of the mid-twenty tens, um, as well. You had a lot of media companies raise a ton of money, ton of capital upfront,
so they had to deploy that capital by hiring a lot of staff. And then when you are used to a certain amount of content going out every day, that takes in a certain number of views through SEO and organic search.
That's very hard to sustain if, if costs have to come down. Yeah. And the new or newer models is something like, okay, maybe we don't need a gazillion views a day,
so we also don't need a gazillion dollars of upfront capital because we can stay lean- Or a gazillion employees. Yes. Or, or a massive staff. Mm-hmm.
Um, you can stay lean, uh, and build way thicker margins on the business because you don't have a bloated staff and, um, that's a pretty, uh, exciting path, I think. Mm. It's definitely--
it's a big change for media because media has made it this far by building big, robust newsrooms that are essentially attention machines, um, you know, looking at it from a, a colder- Yes...
business and economics view. But I don't know if that's the best path to a sustainable business or even a sustainable audience. Mm. Because if you want, um,
if you want people to know you, you can't dilute yourself by hiring a hundred reporters around you, and they're not all gonna write from, like, my view or my voice, for example.
So if we, if we wanna build Opening Bell Daily into a great and lasting business,
sure, one path could be, let's hire a bunch of reporters, and we can make a bunch of products and a bunch of newsletters and then launch a website and have all this- Yeah... traffic going to the website.
But I don't know how interested I am in actually doing that because it's, um, it's, it's hard, you know, for one.
Well, and you- The very- I mean, I know from reading [chuckles] many of your personal blogs, like, your whole thing is you wanted to write and you wanted to be a writer- Of course...
for a living, and that's how you have got where you are today is you, you said, "I wanna write and I wanna get paid to write," and you took that job and you kept writing and et cetera, et cetera. And I, I don't get...
I'm curious actually if you-- what your ambitions are in terms of building a team and a company or if your ambition is just to continue being in the weeds every day writing this product and that's, that's what you wanna do.
When I think about what I do for a living, [chuckles] I feel so grateful because I get to wake up every day and write an email. Mm-hmm. Oh my God. What a, uh, what a, a blessing for one, but it's also
so in line with what I actually love doing, which is writing a-and connecting with people and- Mm... trying to share interesting information. And maybe there's a way that we could grow the business
faster if I started delegating more and becoming more of a manager than a journalist and writer.
But I'm not that interested right now in doing that because I love to write and I love to report and I love doing all the interviews myself and, um, you know, I'm, I'm not here to become a people manager right now.
Why, why would I want to... You know, we've built this great business, uh, my partner and I. Mm. But if we started hiring- Just the two of you? Sorry, by the way, just the two of you right now? Currently. Like full...
Just... Yeah. Okay. Yeah. Do you-- And I imagine there's like... I know you have some guest columnists sometimes, maybe- Mm-hmm... contracted designer from time to time, but it, it's just the two of you.
We, uh, we keep it lean. Yes. Um, but you know, I... If I wanna
be the best version of myself, the best version of myself is the one that is reading and writing and learning and interviewing every single day and getting better by doing that. Mm-hmm.
It's not me managing others to be writing, uh, for a brand that I wanna build. Yeah. Like I-I'm less interested on honestly than... I'm less interested in
the, the brand becoming the next massive financial media company, and I'm more interested in, okay-Can I become, um, a better version of myself through writing every day and helping people understand financial markets a little bit better every single day?
Mm-hmm. And that to me is very exciting. Um, you can almost call it, like, a, a selfish ambition. Like, I wanna see how good I can get at sharing information and [chuckles] writing an email every day really. Yeah.
Um, but I love writing and, and that's never gonna change regardless of how big the business gets. This... So this reminds me of another thing you wrote.
This one, um, was almost five years ago, personal blog post titled Objectivity Is Dying: A Case for Partisan Reporting.
Um, and I think that was five years ago, so I'm curious how your thoughts on this have or have not changed.
But I will say, again, people, people I've interviewed on here who were at larger companies and left to start their own thing, that's a big theme. The way I think about my newsletter, people wanted
anything other than my view on things, they wouldn't read my newsletter, which is fine. [chuckles] Yeah. So, um, you know, the newsletter is essentially a, a column. You know, it...
I'm, I'm a columnist for my own newsletter. Mm-hmm. And, uh, what I try to do,
I have a view on something, and then I do a lot of interviews to see if I'm being, uh, dumb about that view, and I try to back up my, uh, view a-and sort of takes on the market with
as much data and solid reporting as possible. Mm-hmm. So I am still a journalist in every sense of the word.
Um, but because I'm independent and I don't have, let's say, the corporate machine and engine of, you know, maybe other journalists in the mainstream media, uh, I have to lean into my, my views a little more, and, um, I don't think that's a bad thing, and everyone that's coming to this newsletter knows that.
So I don't try to hide that, okay, my views are in this because, you know, my name is on it every single day. Yeah. And it's literally me writing an email, "Hey, good morning everyone." Like, it...
Of course, it's gonna be coming from me. And I think what a lot of... I... And I, I don't think this is a good thing what I'm about to say. A lot of mainstream journalists present their own views as if it was objective.
Yes. And that, I think, is irresponsible. Um- This is what you were getting at in that piece from five years ago, by the way, is, is you were- Okay...
you were saying if, if people have those motivations, it is a disservice to their readers and to society that they hide them. Yes.
If, if you have a view, I'm all for, "Hey, give me your take on something," um, especially if you're in the weeds on it. Mm-hmm. I would love to hear what you think.
But presenting that as objectivity is dishonest, and I do think that there, there's a lot of bias in media certainly. Mm-hmm. And, um, I don't think anyone denies that.
However, people try to frame that bias as the correct way to see the world, and that's what I think is irresponsible. Yeah. Um, like I...
You know, when I share my reporting, um, there's always data, there's always charts, there's always, uh, historical precedence for, for the things I-I'm writing about.
Um, but I certainly don't tell people how to think or what to think. I say, "This is my view on things, and here's- Mm-hmm...
as much possible research I could find to, um, make a case for something, uh, break down an argument."
I am very interested in the nuances of reporting in this area and, you know, people having to say, like, "This is not financial advice."
That, that always fascinates me because usually it is financial advice, um [chuckles], but just kind of, you know, uh, hedged with that. Anyways, that's maybe neither here nor there.
But one thing, another thing I'm gonna take from one of your old blog posts is you described two traits of financial reporters.
You say, "Financial reporters are excellent at knowing what's happening in markets, and financial reporters are not the best source for unique financial information."
Um, and so I bring this up to ask you about your inputs for the newsletter and how you approach primary and secondary sourcing for the, the daily grind of information that you have to put out. When you apply to a job in
a corporate newsroom or a, or a legacy newsroom, one of the things they look for is how well-sourced are you on your beat. Mm-hmm.
And that is actually something I feel very proud of, uh, what I've developed over the last, uh, you know, four years now. I know a lot of people who I can call and ask their take on, and
that's how I get a lot of my information. Um, I have a lot of conversations every week, every day, and I say, "Hey, what do you think of this?" Or, "Here's my take on something.
Can you poke holes in my argument please and, uh, tell me where I'm being stupid?" And that's, like, a huge part of my process is- Yeah...
being well-sourced, having a lot of conversations, and those are the conversations that really make you... Uh, I suppose in any topic, uh, that's what's gonna immerse you in the information.
You can do a bunch of reading, and that's great and important, and I, I certainly read a lot.
However, a lot of the insights that I glean and then put into the newsletter come from conversations, and I think a lot of readers appreciate it and recognize that, and that's part of the value
of the column I write- Yeah... is that a lot of that insight comes from conversations that, uh, not everyone can have and pick- It's access journalism. Yeah.
It, it is access, and, um, I think that informs a lot of my views and a lot of my writing 'cause I'm... You know, I like to say, uh-All these conversations are with people way smarter than I am. Mm-hmm.
So that, uh, you know, hopefully over time makes me a little smarter. But really, I'm relying on people that are super qualified, super experienced, living, breath- Brain trust. Yeah.
And, um, that to me is really exciting. Uh, I love doing it, and I love calling and talking to people.
And, um, I think that's a lot of the value for readers is that sort of access, that proprietary information and proprietary insight. So it's not so, um, you know, hopefully it's not so boilerplate. Yeah. No, good answer.
Thank you. Um, for a moment I do want to talk about the nuts and bolts of the business and of the newsletter, um, how it's growing, et cetera. So I know it's at about o- over 190,000 subscribers.
Tell me how that's grown. Has it been some steady growth? Was it like huge spike from you and Anthony's separate audiences at the beginning? How have you gotten to 190,000 subscribers over the past year?
We launched off the back of obviously existing audience, uh- Mm-hmm... from Anthony and myself and, uh, that was a great... You know, we had a really strong launch because of that.
And we have a lot of partners in media that we work with, so, uh, other newsletters, other media organizations, uh, syndication deals. Mm-hmm. That all drives traffic, um, consistently. And [clears throat]
LinkedIn, I would say, is probably the most... one of the more powerful levers that we are able to pull. You've got, you've got 30-some-thousand followers there as well yourself. Yep. So
we do a lot of video content on LinkedIn, and that's a great driver of growth for us because, uh, the thing about LinkedIn right now, uh, video seems like a really strong, um, lever- Yeah...
on LinkedIn specifically, and I think it's stronger than what you can find on Instagram or, or TikTok right now. 'Cause those are too saturated, or?
Um, it might be the type of content that we're producing, which is like educational, financial, um, very super timely. Like- LinkedIn content. [chuckles] Kinda. You know- [laughs]...
I, I think generally the perception of LinkedIn is that it's a very cringe platform where people are, you know... Sycophantically talking about their employers or something.
It's, you know, what- whatever you wanna call it. [laughs] However, it's also... I think it's still very early days of it being- Mm-hmm... an unbelievable, uh, news and information platform. I would agree.
So people scroll the video feed. I think a lot more people than anyone else realizes- Mm-hmm... uh, use the video feed as if it was TikTok, and that is a very, um... You know, I'm, I'm giving my, uh, alpha here.
[laughs] That's, that's a super untapped, uh, source generally, especially for journalists. Mm. And I think journalists are best positioned to be talking about their stories and their reporting and their conversations
on LinkedIn to other professionals, to real people, and I don't see that many people taking advantage of that. Um, you don't have to- Long may that last. [laughs] Well, yeah, ho- you know- For you and for me.
[laughs] If, uh, if this conversation goes super viral, maybe, uh, the next morning we'll see a bunch of journalists suddenly making videos. But I think- Uh, well, wait. Tell, do, uh...
I don't want to get too far off the, off the track of, of the growth, but I do wanna, I do want you to tell me a bit about your experience.
I think it was last August that you started making short-form videos for, uh, for LinkedIn, the videos you're talking about.
I think by the end of the year you'd written that you'd done about 60 of them, and they're good. You know, I think you've also...
So one thing I've noticed about you from, from research, um, you know, podcast appearances you've done, you are somebody who is knowledgeable. You talk clearly, cleanly, slowly.
Even right now, I'm talking pretty fast, uh, [laughs] on this podcast. You, you, you choose your words carefully.
You think through them, um, which makes you a good podcast guest, and you also have a good presence, right? You've got a deep voice. Um, you're well-suited, right, for this kind of thing.
You're really gassing me up here. Okay. [laughs] Well, no, look, it, it's, it's, it's, it's certainly part of your success, you know? Like, let's be honest about it here.
Um, so you have some of those core skills, I think, that are needed to be successful in a medium like short-form video. Tell me about actually applying that and what your experience has been learning this as a medium.
This is exactly what I was talking about in the beginning with writing. Mm-hmm. Being on camera, filming, talking, these are things that anyone can become excellent at as long as they put in the work. Mm.
I had zero experience until my first video. I was so scared to get on camera, turn the camera around, and post that into the internet. Yeah. I was terrified. And, uh, this...
And I'm someone who's written on the internet for years and years, so it's not like my name hasn't been out there before. Mm-hmm. And that was such a, you know, fairly, uh, daunting experience.
It's vulnerable 'cause it's your voice- Very vulnerable... and it's you. It's like, it's just you. It's not your words. It's all of you, basically. Yes. Or not really all of you, but the perception is that it is.
And that's a frightening thing, and I'll be the first to admit that. And getting over that is just practice, for one. Mm-hmm. Um, but also you get less fearful the more competent you get.
And the more competent you get, uh, the more confident you get as well, but you only get there by reps. Mm. So I, I knew, like any, any task or skill,
I should not judge myself until I've posted 100 videos. Then I can reassess, "Okay-"Am I gonna be good at this? Mm-hmm. Or maybe this is, uh, barking up the wrong tree here.
But I shouldn't say anything until I have 100 reps under my belt and I have some real data, and I've given a real effort. You know, that's exactly what MrBeast says about YouTube.
Um, you have to do 100 videos before you even, before you even think about it. I, I think that's great, and it's the same thing, uh, with writing, you know, with, with going to the gym.
Like, everything is really the same philosophy, uh, in my life. Yeah. I approach every, every single thing the same way. Um, you know, even, like, sales.
Until you've done 100 sales calls, you don't really know if you're good at it because you ha-haven't had- Yeah... the experience to accrue the, the skill and, and the knowledge. So with the video, it's...
It used to take me so long, first of all, to get over the hump of putting myself on camera. Mm-hmm. But then there's also the scripting and the editing and, uh, writing the captions, all these things. But now I can do it
instantly. Like, I, I can- Yeah... I can just whip out my phone- You've got the hang of it... and I can riff pretty quickly. Um, and what I try to focus on now, I try to script a really strong first line and last line.
Mm-hmm. And then in the middle, I can kind of fill in the blanks. Um, but th-this is all practice, and there's- Yeah... no shortcut to becoming excellent at anything.
And, you know, people wanna talk about, like, oh, like, the school you went to, or, like, your childhood, or what your parents' jobs were, or whatever it is. Whatever, uh- Those are excuses. Everything's an excuse.
Literally everything's- Mm-hmm... an excuse. And, uh, people like to talk about privilege or, like, the neighborhood you grew up in or, you know, the, the Kool-Aid you were exposed to, whatever it... I don't know.
Um, I've done enough different things in my life to realize I'm very bad at so many things. But then the couple things that I can do, the only reason- Yeah...
I can do them is because, one, I love doing them, and that opened the door for me to do a million reps of that one thing. Back to Charlie Munger, it's the, uh, circle of competency or whatever he talks about. Yep.
Um, you find your circles of competency. Well, so last question I wanted to ask about the growth. Um, y- uh, the initial audience, both of your audience's exposure to that- Mm-hmm...
has it been pretty steady since then, and has it all been, like, word-of-mouth growth, or have you done some paid advertising? Um, how, how did you actually get to the number you're at now?
Yeah, we've tested some paid ads, but that was a very small percentage of the growth. Um, we consistently grow through social and organic, uh- Mm-hmm... video content. Like, I, I'd say those are the levers.
Um, a lot of word of mouth. We have some partnerships. As I said, um, every morning the newsletter's published on Inc. Magazine and Bloomberg Terminals. Mm-hmm. So we have two mainstream, uh, sources. Those being- Are...
Do they pay you for that syndication, or is it, um, more of a growth thing for you? Those, those are paid deals. Okay. Yeah. Um, that's...
And that's the other thing I wanna talk about is, is the actual business side here. So the revenue streams are syndication, advertising, and then this new, uh, paid membership model, The Best Ideas Club.
Is it just those three models? Or revenue streams, rather? That sounds pretty good. Yep. I think so. Cool. Uh, I do wanna talk about The Best Ideas Club then. So you launched this, um, a month and a day ago as we chat.
Uh, it costs $299 per year. There's no monthly. And to quote, "Members receive a report each Sunday that unpacks one actionable, high-conviction investment idea sourced from an interview with a world-class investor."
So I would love to hear why this was the right time to launch it, almost a year in, um, not any time previously, and how the launch has gone.
This is the time to launch it because we spent a year writing every single day, building our, one, our skill and ability to get better at writing a newsletter- Mm-hmm...
um, and our confidence in delivering super premium, super high quality information. Uh, that's audience trust as well. So I think if we had launched paid right out the gate,
it would've been very difficult because no one had seen the product yet. Yeah.
So we almost did a year of iterating and improvement and tinkering to make sure that, okay, do we have the best possible thing right now that we're sitting on? And, um- Get the daily product perfect before we- Yeah...
before we try anything new. And, and that's with any business. You wanna make sure- Yeah... that your, your flagship core offering is excellent. Mm-hmm. And the only way to achieve that excellence is the reps.
And th-this is... You know, everything comes back to the reps. Back to reps. This is- If you don't- You're, you're such a lifelong athlete. [laughs] If it...
Well, if you don't do the reps, you're gonna get cooked in anything you try to do. You're right. Yeah.
And if we had tried to launch a paid product without doing any reps before, the market would've smoked us, and that's, um, that's in any business, any industry. I feel very confident in that.
And, uh, you know, so why would I not apply this sort of calculus of success that I've found throughout life? That's gonna apply to everything, um, we as a business or me as an individual try to do. Mm-hmm.
Um, and The Best Ideas Club is certainly no different. And we've seen a very strong launch in the first month. We've had amazing interviews.
We've had some really great stock picks as well that, um, these experts have told me. And, you know, um, these aren't my own stock recommendations. Like, I'm not the one giving stock picks to readers.
Again, it's access journalism. Yes. So it, it's access and, um... Think about it. If we publish 50 reports a year for $299, cup of coffee per stock pick, and one...
Like, all you need is one great idea in investing-ROI is clear To, yeah. I, I think it really is a no-brainer if you're serious about, uh, investing. Mm-hmm.
And, you know, but then you have people, uh, that will say, "I don't wanna spend two ninety-nine on anything," and that's fine. They're not the people we're trying to, uh, target with this, uh, offering.
And the people that have signed up so far have been overwhelmingly positive in their feedback, and that's really exciting. Uh, that makes me even more,
um, enthusiastic to make this better and better every single week when we publish. And, uh, you know, I'm excited
to get 100 reps of these under my belt 'cause then by then maybe, you know, I'll ha- I'll have 100 stock picks that are really good and maybe that'll make me a better stock picker or a better, uh, research writer or whatever it is.
Yeah. Everything is just momentum to improve on the individual level. How about paywalls? So Business Insider is a very paywalled product.
Um, da- uh, Opening Bell Daily is not, except for the new Best Ideas Club, uh, product. How do you feel about paywalls as a media entrepreneur? In one sense, they are a necessary evil for a business to survive.
However, readers find them extremely frustrating, and a lot of reporters find them frustrating too.
When I was at Business Insider, I can't tell you how many times friends or family, colleagues, whatever, would message me, say, "Hey, I saw the headline to the story you wrote, but I can't access it.
Can you send me a PDF?" Mm-hmm. And that's just part of the job, you know, for better or for worse. And, um, I think every media business has to think about that crossroad.
Um, you risk burning audience and limiting your reach when you introduce paywalls, but you also need to build, as best you can, a sustainable business, so... That's fair. Yeah.
I think, I mean, looking at large media corporations, I feel like The New York Times has done it really well with like their gift link model. Um- Mm-hmm...
or in independent media, if you follow Jacob Donnelly's A Media Operator, I think he's now doing that model where, um, it's dynamic, where you're given...
You're allowed to read like three free articles per month on the website, and then after that, you hit the paywall, uh, which I think is a good model.
But anyways, I did wanna ask about, um, advice you would give to people who maybe are aspiring journalists, especially in this indie model, back when we were talking about how, you know, somebody like you is advantaged in starting an independent media business because you learned all these things within a corporate media job and you have a master's degree in journalism.
What would you tell listeners who aspire to do journalism, whether independently or in a company, but haven't had access to those opportunities?
It's never been easier to build a portfolio, whether that's on video or on text or in podcasting. There are no barriers to entry technologically, so you can start a podcast at no cost tomorrow. Anyone could.
Or a blog or a TikTok or a YouTube, whatever it is. You should not rely on job experience to try to build the future you want. Pick a thing and do it 100 times yourself.
Yeah. I-- That's how I started. I started a blog. I published, uh, you know, 100 things on the internet, 80 thing, 80 articles or essays on the internet before, um, that got noticed by the right person.
And, you know, a lot... The rep stuff that I keep going back to, you don't do the reps, you don't have the surface area for luck to find you. That's all it is. And if you put work onto the internet for long enough,
one, the work will get better so that it's worth reading, but two, there will be enough of it that someone can find it. Until then, there, there's no, um... You can't complain about not having the opportunity.
I would agree. Um, just a couple more questions. One, the Journalists' Club. This is something that you also launched around the same time that you launched Opening Bell Daily, and it is, as I understand it, an informal
nebulous group of journalists, um, that you host regular events, dinners. You hosted around 30, uh, last year.
Tell me about what this is and what you've learned from it over the past year, what you've like-- whether, um, specific things you've learned from people or patterns you've noticed among these journalists and what they're talking about.
Journalists generally do not know enough journalists at other companies, and that is a key risk when you need a job. So I launched this club because
I went through two layoffs at Business Insider, and I was very fortunate not to have been impacted.
But I launched Journalists' Club because I thought to myself, "I should know more people at other companies," because layoffs are always around the corner in media. That's just the business. It's been that way forever.
And then I thought, "Wait a minute, if I feel like I need to know more people, everyone else probably feels like that too." Then I hosted my first dinner, 10 journalists all met at, uh, a restaurant.
Posted a photo of that on, on X and LinkedIn, and then the demand was... People just started DM-ing me, like, "Hey, when's the next one? When's..." whatever. And, um,
I think right now the, the wait list is, it's like 180 people or so for a dinner, and the dinners are only 10 people at a time. So I'm like, "Jeez, it's gonna take me a long time to-" Is it about...
Are you-- Do you go d-down through the wait list like, um, chronologically, or is it more about curating the right mix of people?It's both. So there is a chronological method to it.
However, I also try to put people in the same room that I think, uh, are working on helpful things that, uh, as in they could help one another, or the job opportunities could line up down the road for each other.
Um, and a lot of people from Journalists Club have gotten jobs through this.
Um, they got laid off or they wanted to change jobs, and they met the right person at Journalists Club, and that became the connection for a job. So that is very gratifying, and I'm very happy to, uh, be a part of that.
And, um, you know, I think in the last twelve months, uh, this might be two hundred and sixty, two hundred and fifty-six or something like...
So that many people have attended a Journalists Club event, and, um, that's very exciting to me and certainly one of the, the more interesting things that I'm working on right now. Nice. No, that sounds really cool.
Uh, last thing. One thing you are bearish on and one thing you are bullish on regarding media in twenty twenty-five. I mean, we've been talking about it all day. The, the bullish thing is independent media. That trend is
looking more and more like an unstoppable force right now.
I know a lot of newsletter writers, a lot of YouTubers, podcasters that all went through mainstream media to become independent journalists or creators, and I, I don't anticipate that slowing down because I think increasingly individuals are learning the steps required to build a sustainable business in media, and that's pretty exciting.
Um, and I wouldn't say I'm necessarily bearish on corporate media, but you could almost point to corporate media as the opposite side of that bet. So I, I wouldn't...
I, I'm not trying to say I am bearish on corporate media, but if you just take my bullish bet as a stand-alone- It's not a bearishness, but there's an implication. Maybe. It depends how you want to slice it.
And I, you know, I have a lot of friends in, in mainstream media, and they do- Yeah... excellent work, and I read all of them. Like, it's not like I'm anti-anything. Uh, I read all their work, and I think it's great.
Um, but it's not where I would be betting right now. Yeah. That makes sense. We'll leave it there. Uh, is there anything else you would like to leave the listeners with?
Everyone should definitely subscribe to Opening Bell daily if they want the best free financial news that is available, and we won't hit you with paywalls. Easy promise. There you have it. Thank you for coming on, Phil.
Thank you, Francis. This has been the Creator Spotlight podcast. I will see you next week.
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