WEBVTT 1 00:00:00.080 --> 00:00:11.280 How do you make it work? This is a pretty big operation. I just do by the skin of my [beep] teeth. Like, it's realizing that, like, you have to come up with 10 to $15,000 a month to run your business. 2 00:00:11.510 --> 00:00:21.740 They have to come up with much more. You're still in the same suit. Would you rather be you, or would you rather be them? You have no full-time employees. You have no office space. You have no overhead. 3 00:00:21.840 --> 00:00:33.080 And so it's like, if I have to be in the primordial soup, I would rather be me, because the real risk right now is- Oh, welcome back to the Creator Spotlight podcast. 4 00:00:33.220 --> 00:00:46.220 [upbeat electronic music] Today, we are speaking with Daisy Alioto, who's the CEO, editor, and sometimes writer of Dirt Media, which is a next-generation, newsletter-first entertainment brand covering digital pop culture. 5 00:00:46.760 --> 00:00:55.850 Um, Daisy also happens to be my co-host on Tasteland, a podcast where we speak with interesting people from the world of culture, media, tech, and business. 6 00:00:56.340 --> 00:01:10.500 Um, so this has the distinction of being the Creator Spotlight episode with a guest who I've spoken to by probably 100 times the most before recording, um, this episode. So thank you for doing this, Daisy. 7 00:01:11.140 --> 00:01:17.100 Yeah, I feel like I'm supposed to jump in and say that I'm the co-host, but this is a crossover episode. 8 00:01:17.200 --> 00:01:28.440 And, um, you know, I was thinking as I was getting ready that I didn't consider that you would be researching me as deeply as you research- Mm-hmm... our Tasteland guests. So as, 9 00:01:29.640 --> 00:01:39.980 uh- Well, this was a little different though... uncomfortable that is, I mean. Mm-hmm. 'Cause I, I already know a good amount about you. Mm-hmm. So I wasn't like, you know, I didn't have to read your past year of tweets. 10 00:01:40.240 --> 00:01:49.940 I did listen to two podcasts that you've done recently that were not our own. Um, but it was weird. It was definitely weird. We should talk about what Dirt is so the listener knows. 11 00:01:50.000 --> 00:01:59.440 So if I was to define it for a friend, I'd say it's like daily-ish pop culture newsletter, cover everything from, like, how AI slop is ruining the internet, to, like- Mm-hmm... 12 00:01:59.580 --> 00:02:10.030 your favorite television show industry, to, like, I don't know, like, esoteric... You just wrote about grottoes and grottos as this concept. Um, 13 00:02:10.979 --> 00:02:14.100 and then you're also, there's this collaboration element that's really important. 14 00:02:14.130 --> 00:02:26.900 It's like this platform for kind of connecting other kind of like alt culture, weird things, like Marfa Public Radio, this remote radio station, or, like, these guys making, you know, bootleg T-shirts. 15 00:02:27.000 --> 00:02:36.120 Um, so it's this, like, pop culture newsletter and kind of, like, alt pop culture platform. Does that, does that feel accurate for the listener who might not know? Yeah. 16 00:02:36.280 --> 00:02:39.960 I think there was a few things that went into the vision of Dirt. 17 00:02:40.020 --> 00:02:51.740 There was coming off of that Hodinkee experience, this idea that, like, content, community, and commerce were three pillars that would be really important to any future digital media company. Mm-hmm. 18 00:02:51.900 --> 00:02:58.010 And the big question at the time was, like, how much of that could happen or be enabled by the blockchain. Mm-hmm. 19 00:02:58.040 --> 00:03:09.720 And then there was this other kind of, you know, nugget of an idea, which was like, what would it mean for media companies to operate more like streetwear companies or to, like, emphasize the ways that they sort of already do? 20 00:03:10.420 --> 00:03:31.160 And that was the thing that the people who invested in Dirt, who were largely investing out of crypto and Web3-focused funds, got the most excited about, because there's an element of building a community that wants to collect and represent your brand that can apply to digital collectibles. 21 00:03:31.200 --> 00:03:47.410 Yeah. Um, at the time, AI was not really a big part of the conversation, which seems crazy, um, because AI and autonomous AI agents, and is, it's such a big part of the conversation in technology right now- Yeah... 22 00:03:47.420 --> 00:03:59.160 and also, like, the emphasis on NFTs at the time and NFT artwork as really, at the current moment, although it toggles back and forth, um, switched to meme coins. And- Wait, well wait, wait. 23 00:03:59.220 --> 00:04:04.300 Some- something I wanna stop on here. Yeah. So, so something you said on the context pod that I was listening to- Mm-hmm... 24 00:04:04.340 --> 00:04:11.850 earlier, um, was what if we stop thinking about people as subscribers, and we start thinking about them as collectors? And you were talking about, like- Mm-hmm... 25 00:04:11.860 --> 00:04:17.060 if we get somebody to buy a $30 hat, and then there might be- Wow, that's really smart. I can't believe I said that. I can't believe you said that. 26 00:04:17.110 --> 00:04:23.840 [laughs] There might be like a sub- a subscription to Dirt included in it- Mm-hmm... um, and that you'd seen a lot of, like, growth in revenue around these- Yeah... 27 00:04:23.860 --> 00:04:45.159 limited col- collaborations, and now we're really getting to this, like, these streetwear drop ideas, and then this idea of, like, collecting the limited edition thing, whether that's the, like, the NFT or it's, like, a physical hat or whatever, but then how that includes the subscription to the media, which, d- you know, then they're on the newsletter, and then they're like, "Oh, here's the next collaborate, limited collaboration thing I want." 28 00:04:45.210 --> 00:04:56.560 And then they're just kind of, like, in this ecosystem of collecting and, like, participating in this, in this thing, in this publication- Mm-hmm... through the collections, which to me, like, felt novel. 29 00:04:56.640 --> 00:05:00.060 I think that it is. It's a new and an old idea. Like, that- Yeah... 30 00:05:00.080 --> 00:05:06.390 was really what came out in our Tasteland conversation with the representatives from three different worker-owned media collectives who were talking- Yes... 31 00:05:06.400 --> 00:05:16.630 about converting people, which is like, um, they're dealing with the same thing, and everyone's sort of trying to solve this problem of like, you know, you can spin your wheels and be like, "Why aren't more people buying subscriptions? 32 00:05:16.700 --> 00:05:24.060 Maybe we need to email them more. Maybe we need to discount them more." Or you could put energy into figuring out what they will buy. What they want. Mm-hmm. Yeah. 33 00:05:24.180 --> 00:05:36.060 And maybe what they will buy is, like, access to a chat with Drew McGarry- Mm-hmm... or, you know, whatever. But, or two baseball caps. Yeah. But being in... 34 00:05:36.600 --> 00:05:43.680 See, now I'm getting off track, so- Or you're having, like, an event. Like, like, I saw- Yes... like, Helga. I'm s- I'm a Helga subscriber, right? And I, and, and a 404 Media subscriber. 35 00:05:43.740 --> 00:05:50.760 I didn't go to either of these events. Mm-hmm. But they had their, like, holiday parties. It was, it was, like, free for subscribers or- Mm-hmm... like, 30 bucks if you're not subscribed. 36 00:05:50.780 --> 00:05:55.500 And it's like, well, at that point, I should probably just subscribe, and then I'll go to the party, and it's like- Yeah... 37 00:05:55.540 --> 00:06:04.680 only a little bit more money, and I get to go to the party, and I get a year's worth of their stuff. Like... Yeah, like, duh. But if their marketing to you had been, like, "Stop buying matcha"- Yeah... 38 00:06:04.800 --> 00:06:12.560 or-One day a month and buy it Well, the, the way what everybody uses- This inside you would be like, "Go away." Every newsletter is like, "You know, it's only the cost of one beer per month." 39 00:06:12.640 --> 00:06:20.420 It's like, and it's like, oh, okay, I'm gonna- But that's my beer. Yeah, [laughs] exactly. Yeah. People don't think of it as coming out of the same pot. It's not. You have to figure out what they value. 40 00:06:20.620 --> 00:06:29.130 And like, nobody wants to be running like eight different strategies at the same time. But like, you know, what we're really talking about is like e-commerce and events and like- Yeah... 41 00:06:29.140 --> 00:06:37.100 what is the segment of people who convert along those. But, so I'm getting, I'm getting like a little bit off track, but- No, that's okay. What, so like how, how does the rest of the business work? 42 00:06:37.160 --> 00:06:43.460 Like, you have, this is like subscription revenue, there's advertising revenue, these collaborations. Like, how do you make this work? 43 00:06:43.540 --> 00:06:52.610 Like, uh, we were talking earlier about like how you've always been at the, like right at the center of marketing, the commerce, and editorial. Um, how do you, how do you... 44 00:06:52.610 --> 00:06:59.780 Y- y- you're also like, I should say, this isn't like a creator-driven newsletter where it's like just you publishing your opinion every day. 45 00:06:59.820 --> 00:07:09.200 You do publish a decent amount of your own work, but it's like, it's mostly other writers. I think you pay like 50 cents a word. Um, it costs a good amount to produce this newsletter. This is not like a... 46 00:07:09.220 --> 00:07:19.790 And, you know, it's, it's all edited, um, blah, blah, blah. Allegedly. [laughs] Allegedly. How do you, how do you make it work? It's like this is a pretty big operation. Well, I'm so glad you asked. 47 00:07:19.800 --> 00:07:29.740 This is where it comes back to the primordial soup. [laughs] So primordial soup is like my new pet thing, and this relates to what I was talking about before, which is like, um, Twitter is like throttling links. 48 00:07:29.760 --> 00:07:41.020 Like Facebook, who knows? What the heck? Instagram, great, you can build a large following there, but it's hard to direct them to, um, like text-based content on other platforms. Yeah. 49 00:07:41.060 --> 00:07:51.320 Blue Sky, like nobody knows if they're supposed to be doing it. So like, I'm like, okay, that's the primordial soup. That is when you're in a time period where nobody really knows what to do. 50 00:07:51.520 --> 00:07:58.680 Pivot to video, pivot to podcast, run eight different social accounts that have like a decreasing return on investment. 51 00:08:00.000 --> 00:08:13.380 And I was kind of giving a pep talk to somebody who's in a similarly sized media business the other day, which is like, I think I was just walking him through what I've arrived at for myself to cope, 'cause you're like, how do you make it work? 52 00:08:13.410 --> 00:08:27.120 And I'm just like, "I just do by the skin of my fucking teeth." Mm-hmm. Like, it's realizing that like you are in this primordial soup, Condé Nast is in this primordial soup, Hearst is in the primordial soup. 53 00:08:27.960 --> 00:08:38.600 You have to come up with 10 to $15,000 a month to run your business. Yeah. They have to come up with much more. You're still in the same soup. Would you rather be you or would you rather be them? 54 00:08:39.220 --> 00:08:45.900 It's like you have no full-time employees, you have no office space, you have no overhead, you have no, um... 55 00:08:47.620 --> 00:08:55.940 [lips smack] Well, you might have like some, you might work with a printer, but you're not printing a print product on a cadence that you're locked into. 56 00:08:56.000 --> 00:09:04.400 And so it's like if I have to be in the primordial soup, I would rather be me, because the real risk right now is evolving in the wrong direction too quickly. 57 00:09:05.180 --> 00:09:16.040 Like, you don't wanna evolve out of the soup into a creature that does not reflect where things are going. This is a great metaphor. And the game right now is to survive in the soup as long as possible. 58 00:09:16.540 --> 00:09:28.590 You just have to survive, stay in the soup, and it will become clear what you need to be. And you can even like evolve and devolve. Yeah. You can try things. I don't think, it's like s- you have to, you wait. 59 00:09:28.600 --> 00:09:34.830 It's like, you know, to, [laughs] to go on the primordial soup pre-evolution thing, it's like there's the volcanoes making the island in the ocean. Yeah. 60 00:09:34.830 --> 00:09:42.340 And it's like maybe your oce- maybe your island hasn't been formed yet. You know? Yeah. Like, you wanna wait to crawl onto land until you see the right land. 61 00:09:42.800 --> 00:09:53.240 I'm just like, you are dealing with all of the same problems as these established media brands. Mm-hmm. You have a lot fewer resources, but you also have to come up with much less- Mm-hmm... 62 00:09:53.300 --> 00:10:06.180 in order to survive and stay afloat. And like, so it's almost like what are you complaining about? Wouldn't you rather be you than them? Like, you're so agile. 63 00:10:06.260 --> 00:10:16.760 This also goes back to like the, you know, the age of like the SEO and scale being kind of over, and it's like you just have to like find your, your niche group. You don't have to look for like a million people audience. 64 00:10:16.800 --> 00:10:28.119 Like, that's just, for, for 99.9% of people trying to like put content out on the internet, you don't want a million. Y- there's no world in which you're gonna get an audience of a million. Mm-hmm. Um, yeah. 65 00:10:28.440 --> 00:10:35.240 You j- that's, w- you should be lucky to touch the soup. You could around a certain tent pole, but it mu- Yeah... it's probably not gonna be your core. But most people, the vast majority of people. Yeah. Mm-hmm. 66 00:10:35.980 --> 00:10:49.800 Yeah, so like, I mean, I'm not... I like talk about Dirt as a publisher. I talk about Dirt as a Condé Nast of newsletters. I represent us in a very big way because we have a big vision. 67 00:10:49.840 --> 00:11:02.020 But that vision can be executed by quite simply just finding enough money every month. And that is, like, that's kind of all a startup is. 68 00:11:02.080 --> 00:11:15.120 It's not very, like, glamorous, but I've chosen that rather than being a solo operator where I would've, like, made a six-figure salary just to myself this year, because 69 00:11:16.100 --> 00:11:31.820 I want to be a publisher and I want to be closer to a magazine, which is something you and I have also talked about, which is a container for taste that contains a lot of different perspectives with an editorial purview set by a few, like, lead voices and taste makers. 70 00:11:32.220 --> 00:11:47.390 That's really what I'm interested in, and I'm interested in, like, all the different ways that that can be, um [lips smack] supplemented, organized, like, I don't know, like underscored by like new technology- Yeah... 71 00:11:47.390 --> 00:11:50.120 or like response to it. Um- Well, wait. 72 00:11:50.220 --> 00:12:00.300 I, one, one thing I've been wanting to get you to respond to is like, uh, you ki- and you kind of already are, is like what's the difference between Dirt, which is, you know, this- Yeah... 73 00:12:00.340 --> 00:12:02.700 it's multiple things, but it's a newsletter first thing. 74 00:12:02.760 --> 00:12:08.800 That's how probably most people experience it is it lands in their inbox, and then they read the article, they click through, maybe they read it on the website, right? 75 00:12:09.280 --> 00:12:12.810 Um, but then there's like a Garbage Day or a Perfectly Imperfect or a Feed Me- Yeah... 76 00:12:12.820 --> 00:12:20.190 which are also all kind of like i- all these are all different things, but they're all like culture-related newsletters that come out multiple times per week. Mm-hmm. Right? Mm-hmm. 77 00:12:20.190 --> 00:12:31.380 And like, so it's like an obvious question, but it sounds like the answer you're saying is like the crucial difference between Dirt, which is, you know, they're all newsletters, they're all in the primordial soup of newsletters and, like, are, like, smaller. 78 00:12:31.400 --> 00:12:39.048 They're not, they're not Vogue or whatever, right?The difference is that you are making this magazine that's, like, it's not you. It's not... 79 00:12:39.068 --> 00:12:47.228 Like, it's your taste, but it's like you are behind the scenes as the editor, and you're not the face. Is that the difference between you and, like, these other things? 80 00:12:47.668 --> 00:12:55.488 Between Dirt and, like, a Garbage Day, Perfectly Imperfect, or Feed Me? What is the crucial difference? I mean, I don't wanna speak for, like, Tyler or Emily or Ryan. 81 00:12:55.508 --> 00:13:04.848 But I think, I think the real difference is probably... Like, to reframe the question a little bit, what is more, like... What's most likely to be the secret third thing? 82 00:13:04.928 --> 00:13:13.568 Like, this is something that we talked about with the worker-owned media collectives, which is, like, okay, everyone's doing subscription and advertising revenue, some hybrid. 83 00:13:13.648 --> 00:13:24.768 That's true for Ryan, that's true for Emily, that's true for Tyler. Then there's, like, the secret third thing. For Dirt, it's the sort of like, um, operating like a streetwear company. 84 00:13:25.298 --> 00:13:36.708 Plus, like, we are developing some amount of proprietary technology. Like, the stack of our website is not... Each of the pieces of it are not proprietary, but this idea of, like, you hit this, like, blobby paywall. 85 00:13:37.408 --> 00:13:52.248 You create an account. You purchase a subscription that's represented by artwork. That's, that is a new, that's a novel application of the technology. Um, for Tyler, it's definitely having his own social network. 86 00:13:52.528 --> 00:13:54.868 For Emily, it's probably not having her own social network. 87 00:13:55.028 --> 00:14:06.168 It's probably taking, um, the Substack comment section, not necessarily in the short term trying to replace that with her own network, but monetizing it into, like, a paid book club or paid events. 88 00:14:06.768 --> 00:14:17.238 Um, for Ryan, it could be, like, a, a conference or event series. Well, wait. Okay, so this is interesting. But probably not gonna be proprietary technology. Yeah. I love how you, how you've responded to this. 89 00:14:17.288 --> 00:14:38.788 So basically you're saying it's like they're- they've- these are all things that have started as newsletters, but they kind of like, they're all evolving out of the primordial soup into, like, this different thing that's defined by, like, the, the creator, their- the creator's point of view and, like, how the creator has, like, develop- the audience that the, the person behind it has developed and how they relate to that audience and how that audience relates to them. 90 00:14:38.828 --> 00:14:48.468 It's like the, the difference is just, like, somewhere along the way the [laughs] the primordial soup bubbled up something different and, like, you took that separate path. Yeah. 91 00:14:48.568 --> 00:15:00.448 I think, like, you talked to Ryan recently. Mm-hmm. Ryan is, uh, was a really early angel investor in Dirt, and he is one of our advisors. He's like a newsletter network. 92 00:15:00.828 --> 00:15:07.448 Well, you could say it's like a, a bundling, example of bundling- Yeah... across different B2B categories. 93 00:15:08.088 --> 00:15:17.748 And he's using, um, that newsletter network to identify needs for- Adam Ryan, you're saying, not Ryan Ryan Broderick. Adam Ryan. Yeah, yeah, sorry. Did I say Ryan? Not Adam. You said Ryan, yeah. It's okay. 94 00:15:17.988 --> 00:15:26.368 I, I, I was tweeting his name the other day and I wrote Ryan instead of Adam, so. Oh my God, please don't tell him. So you interviewed Ryan [laughs] recently. And, um, 95 00:15:27.628 --> 00:15:40.368 you're, like, so he's, like, using the newsletter to identify, like, within these B2B categories, like, is there a need for some sort of, like, new HR software? Um, do we need different, like, uh... 96 00:15:41.308 --> 00:15:52.118 Is there, like, some sort of, like, healthcare professional, um, like, network series that you pay into and has, like, a shared group chat? Yeah. 97 00:15:52.128 --> 00:16:00.228 He's building these, like, mini social networks for these professions and, like, using these newsletters to build them. Or software products. Yeah. Mm-hmm. Um, like, not deep tech. 98 00:16:00.468 --> 00:16:15.148 But, um, that's, like, what he's doing, you know, in this B2B space. So, like, Dirt right now we only represent a roll-up of two newsletters, Dirt and Prune. But can do a similar thing, but around, like, a 99 00:16:16.668 --> 00:16:26.868 business to consumer rather than, like, business to business. So what would it mean to identify different consumer needs through the newsletter and serve them, um, whether they're, like, 100 00:16:28.108 --> 00:16:42.108 technical or around, like, a specific product. And I'm interested in, like, tools that can deepen the relationship between a subscriber and publication, so that's sort of what I focused on. 101 00:16:42.728 --> 00:16:52.718 Um, but that's just, like, that's sort of like a parallel track to the streetwear style drops that we do. Um, does that make sense? That does make sense. I wanna talk about the audience though for a second. Mm-hmm. 102 00:16:52.768 --> 00:17:02.048 We've, we've, we've, uh, gone far without talking about them. So who is the Dirt reader? Mm-hmm. One, I know that in the New York Times piece from this summer, um- Oh, were we in The New York Times? 103 00:17:02.248 --> 00:17:09.418 Yeah, you were in The New York Times if you, in case you forgot. Great, great article. Uh, tastes like success and not my name. Well, that's the other thing about, like, being a young media company- Mm-hmm... 104 00:17:09.598 --> 00:17:18.188 is, like, people... Well, people think we're a lot bigger and we have more resources than we do. Yeah. And I'm like, "You know"- And then being in The New York Times makes you look bigger than you are. Right. 105 00:17:18.268 --> 00:17:25.068 But you can, like... It's like you can run something on a shoestring, but if you're smart, it's like you're gonna be hearing about me everywhere. Yeah. You're gonna be sick of hearing about Dirt. 106 00:17:25.708 --> 00:17:37.828 And y- you don't need to be making millions of dollars a year to, like, get to that point. Yeah. Like, this is, like, it's brute force cultural capital accrual and... 107 00:17:37.928 --> 00:17:45.348 Which is the only thing that's actually going to be monetizable- Yeah... for, like- Cultural capital. Yeah. Well, taste. Taste. Right? 108 00:17:45.468 --> 00:17:55.768 In the taste economy, which I, like, have also avoided bringing up 'cause I just am sick of talking about it- [laughs]... which is stupid, 'cause it's like- You've flogged it for many, many hours. I know. 109 00:17:55.848 --> 00:18:04.708 Just go to the YouTube link. Well, wait. Okay, wait, wait, wait. But- Go to the YouTube link and report the guy that wrote insufferable because the comment keeps disappearing and reappearing. On, on the FWB? Um- Yeah. 110 00:18:04.748 --> 00:18:14.028 Yeah. Yeah. But it's g- okay. My aud- So the audience, 30 to 40,000 or so you, you'd said this summer. Mm-hmm. Um, who are these people? Who are, who is the Dirt reader, and how have they come to Dirt? 111 00:18:14.108 --> 00:18:22.688 How have you developed the audience? My description of a Dirt reader, which is, like, maybe this isn't as specific as you're asking. I can get more into specifics. 112 00:18:22.708 --> 00:18:34.288 But it's, like, the person who works in technology that wants to be seen as more culturally advanced than other people that work in technology. 113 00:18:34.348 --> 00:18:41.206 And the person that works in culture that wants to be seen as more-Technology fluent than other people that work in culture. 114 00:18:41.256 --> 00:18:54.206 And everyone is sort of sitting at the center of this Venn diagram where it's like, okay, we're translating things in technology for people who are kinda tipped more into the world of culture, and we're translating culture for people that are tipped more into the world of technology. 115 00:18:54.796 --> 00:19:01.156 That's, like, my very, very broad, um, description of, like, the ideal Dirt reader. Um, like, we do... 116 00:19:01.296 --> 00:19:10.536 We have done surveys, and so we know, like, um, technology, media, and, like, academia and the arts are just, like, our top fields. 117 00:19:10.656 --> 00:19:21.106 But I don't know a lot of other newsletters that are read by, like, VCs and people who have DIY lit mags. I just don't. Yeah. And- Well, it's an exciting, it's an exciting description. It, like- Mm-hmm... 118 00:19:21.106 --> 00:19:28.256 makes you feel like you're included. It, it makes you feel like you're in on the conversation no matter- Mm-hmm... which side of it you're coming from, which is really clever. Yeah. 119 00:19:28.296 --> 00:19:38.496 And, like, some people go really hard on, like, marketing media through exclusivity, where it's like we would talk about, like, who Dirt isn't for. But I've never felt a need to do that. 120 00:19:38.506 --> 00:19:49.896 And, like, one thing I talked about with Paul when he was writing the Styles piece is, like, I've never felt any need to position Dirt as, like, an enfant terrible. I understand why people do that. 121 00:19:49.956 --> 00:20:02.276 I think it makes a lot of sense. Like, for example, The Drift. Like, they burst on the scene, and they were just like, um, "N plus one had their moment. You're old. Like, now you have us." And that makes a lot of sense. 122 00:20:02.376 --> 00:20:13.436 But for me, I think if I compared Dirt to anything that came before, I would actually be limiting what we could be. Um, because what we really wanna be is something nobody's ever seen before. 123 00:20:14.116 --> 00:20:27.576 And you can't do that if you're just trying to get attention in the short term, which comes back to, like, the monoculture start a war thing Nick Susie wrote that we referenced yesterday. Like, that's... 124 00:20:27.616 --> 00:20:39.576 I mean, that's awesome for short-term bursts of attention. Like, if we came on the scene and we're just like, "Our whole thing is gonna be, like, beefing with GQ," sure, fine. But at a certain point you have to say... 125 00:20:39.636 --> 00:20:47.756 You can't define yourself in opposition to others. You have to say what you are, what you offer. You have to be very future-focused, which I think came through in the Styles piece. 126 00:20:48.436 --> 00:20:55.185 And for better or worse, like, being future-focused right now has to include some theory of media and some theory of technology. 127 00:20:55.776 --> 00:21:13.036 And I, like, really try to be generous to my, of, with my time and talk to other people who might wanna start something like Dirt or turn, like, their current newsletter into more of, like, a solo media business. 128 00:21:13.296 --> 00:21:27.926 Um, but I get frustrated with the amount of people who have no theory of the future of media, um, and no theory of technology other than AI bad. And- Well, this, this goes back to what we keep talking about... 129 00:21:27.946 --> 00:21:38.866 it's like grow up. [laughs] About, like, you understanding the, the business side of it, too. And it's like the future of media can't just be, like, writing a good article. That's always at the core of it- Yeah... right? 130 00:21:39.056 --> 00:21:45.116 Making something really good. But that's like you need the vessel to put that in and, and get it out there. Well, and the... 131 00:21:45.396 --> 00:21:56.526 What I loved about that conversation we had with, um, Max and Sam and Jasper, who represent, like, 404 Defector and, um, Hull Gate is, like, they are grownups. Like, I... 132 00:21:56.576 --> 00:22:07.946 Because to me they are people who have, like, understood and moved past this idea of needing to, um, understand the business- They're pragmatic... side of things. Very pragmatic. 133 00:22:07.946 --> 00:22:13.196 Like, yeah, they have, they have ideals and they, like, operate from a place of idealism- Jasper especially... but they're very pragmatic. Jasper especially. 134 00:22:13.876 --> 00:22:21.976 And I actually think that that is the number one thing that makes a difference in what seeds and fails. Does not make a difference... And, and for how long. 135 00:22:22.016 --> 00:22:25.476 It does not make a difference in what's interesting, and I wanna be very clear about that. 136 00:22:25.596 --> 00:22:36.696 I think there's, there should always be time and space for interesting experiments in media and art that do not make money, will not exist for a long time, and cannot survive, period. 137 00:22:37.256 --> 00:22:49.156 And that's, like, that is a slide in the taste economy presentation, which is like is this a business or not? Decide now, because once you enter the cloudosphere, people will have certain expectations of you. 138 00:22:49.916 --> 00:23:01.196 Um, I love that stuff. I encourage it as much as possible. I've written for publications like that where I'm just like, "Lord knows if this will be around in eight months, but I'm so glad it's around now." 139 00:23:01.216 --> 00:23:11.936 That is like... I, I really wanna make clear that that's valid. My issue is, like, the context collapse between the two. Um, the idea that the outcomes could be similar. 140 00:23:12.516 --> 00:23:27.826 And I think you only really have a chance at, like, longevity once you cross the threshold that these guys have crossed, which is, like, the business side, the pragmatism, the thinking about new business models, the enacting new business models and not just sitting on Twitter and talking about it and being like, "Somebody should make this." 141 00:23:27.916 --> 00:23:35.566 Okay. Do it. Like- But, like, in doing it and trying to figure it out- Yeah... 'cause I think w- the one thing that is really compelling about them is they all kind of, like, just started doing it and, like- Mm-hmm... 142 00:23:35.586 --> 00:23:43.696 there's gotta be a way we can do this. And then they work with each other to figure it out. Mm-hmm, mm-hmm. And, like, Defector was first, so, like, they have given so much advice to all these [laughs] other people. 143 00:23:43.796 --> 00:23:51.855 Um, and it's like, yeah, you just start doing... It's kinda what you're s- saying a little bit ago about, like, how do, how do you make Dirt work? You, you make it work every month one month [laughs] at a time. Yeah. 144 00:23:51.876 --> 00:23:57.996 And that's kind of all you can do. You're not... You don't wanna, like, um, you wanna have your vision of, like, what I want this to be in five years, whatever. 145 00:23:58.076 --> 00:24:02.836 But you have to realize that that's, like, a castle in the sky, and you have to build, you know- Mm-hmm... the stairway up there. 146 00:24:03.016 --> 00:24:10.376 And maybe, maybe you'll never get to that castle, but you'll, you'll get to [laughs] some other castle. Um, you'll get to your, your whatever, your island out of the primordial soup. 147 00:24:10.536 --> 00:24:22.816 Uh, I do wanna talk a- And the progress is so incremental. Yeah. And it includes just a lot of insane bullshit. Like, you know, filing, like, everyone's 1099s and whatever, running payroll and this and that. 148 00:24:22.876 --> 00:24:30.656 Like, if you're not willing to do that, you don't get to have a media company. Sorry. Yeah. Like, you can have your Substack, and that's really nice for you. Mm-hmm. 149 00:24:31.766 --> 00:24:43.216 Um, but people are not gonna talk about you in the same way that they talk about people who have just sat their ass in the soup, and- Yeah... that's okay. Like, it's, it's a really big tent. 150 00:24:43.256 --> 00:24:52.875 There's room for, like, a lot of different models. Mm-hmm.The really big bowl of soup. [laughs] Um, sorry Yeah, like how many metaphors can we throw in here? So many. [laughs] There's an animal cracker. 151 00:24:53.136 --> 00:24:55.436 Yeah Like [laughs] I love, I love mixing metaphors. 152 00:24:55.656 --> 00:25:03.036 Um, okay, I wanna talk about the collaborations though, 'cause this is something you're really good at, and this really goes back to the streetwear thing, and the collectibles, et cetera. So you do a lot of them. 153 00:25:03.116 --> 00:25:11.076 Um, w- the most recent one that came out, I think as we record this, was the Marfa Public Radio tote bag. Mm-hmm, mm-hmm. A little bit before that there was the k- the editorial series with Cakescene. 154 00:25:11.116 --> 00:25:20.576 I think there was an event involved in that too. And then also the, um, you know, the T-shirts with Night Gallery. Mm-hmm. Um, so these are all things where you're, like, collaborating with other people, doing really... 155 00:25:20.916 --> 00:25:24.716 You, you know, Marfa Public Radio is a different thing. That's kind of like a public radio station that's been around for a while. 156 00:25:24.736 --> 00:25:29.696 But you're collaborating with other people, doing interesting things on generally a smaller scale. Mm-hmm. 157 00:25:29.776 --> 00:25:39.696 Um, and you're, like, build- weaving together this, I don't know, this, this kind of like alternative cultural bulwark. Bulwark's not the right word. Bulwark? It's like raft. This raft. 158 00:25:39.756 --> 00:25:44.076 God, I don't know if I've heard or even see that. It's called a raft. A raft of the soup. Oh my God, a raft of the soup. There we go. Okay. 159 00:25:44.156 --> 00:25:52.686 Um, anyways, um, I think too, like, you're talking about all the 1099s you have to do, et cetera, and like when you- Yeah... you really prioritize, like- Prioritizing... 160 00:25:52.686 --> 00:25:59.216 bringing in writers who maybe haven't written a lot elsewhere. Mm-hmm. You're more interested in their ideas, whatever. Mm-hmm. Where am I getting with this? Um, I guess- Yeah, where are you getting with this? 161 00:25:59.256 --> 00:26:03.706 Where am I getting with this? I guess I'm interested- We're really running out the clock. We have 10 minutes left. We're, we, we, maybe we'll go a little over. Mm-hmm. 162 00:26:03.706 --> 00:26:15.396 I'm really interested in how you think about collaborations and, like, these are such an important part of, of what you do. Um, I don't know. I, I, I guess, like, to, for the listener listening, I want them to, like... 163 00:26:16.196 --> 00:26:23.666 I want people to do more collaborations, to, like, not do things solo. To, like, not just have your newsletter and write it yourself, whatever. Mm-hmm. 164 00:26:23.666 --> 00:26:33.856 I, I like it when people work with other people and make new, interesting things. Um, so how do you make these things happen? How do they come about? Um, well, so I, 165 00:26:34.856 --> 00:26:44.706 I love working with other small, like, startups or media entities or, like, artistic entities because, like... 166 00:26:44.736 --> 00:26:52.996 It's honestly, it's, like, really selfish because I'm like, okay, exposes us to their audience and them to ours. Great. But it's also, like, there's so few stakeholders. 167 00:26:53.496 --> 00:26:57.876 Like, that T-shirt was like, I texted Josh and was like, "Can we do a shirt together?" 168 00:26:57.916 --> 00:27:09.056 And I've become, like, spoiled for that because I'm like, when I do reach out to a larger organization and try to collaborate with them, and, like, there's 12 people on the email thread, I'm kinda like, "Yeah, I'm out." 169 00:27:09.096 --> 00:27:21.956 Like, there's just... At a certain point it becomes worth your time because, like, when you see that through start to finish with all of the stakeholders, they run it up the temp pole, it happens, you make money. 170 00:27:22.696 --> 00:27:34.316 Um, [laughs] but it's also just, like, such an annoying way to do business when you've been me for c- the last couple years, just waking up and being like, "I wanna make a perfume." 171 00:27:35.576 --> 00:27:46.866 And you start to gravitate towards the people that are receptive to that, like the people that say yes, the people that are, like, focused on, "This is how we would do it," not, "Hmm," like, "What if this, what if this, what if this?" 172 00:27:47.356 --> 00:28:00.556 Who cares? Like Kab, um, who we had on Tasteland, who co-founded Arena, literally, like, messaged me as I was, like, coming to my computer to record this, being like, um, "I wish people brought us more ideas, like you... 173 00:28:00.576 --> 00:28:14.696 Or, like, you came in so strong." I literally, like, messaged him and Meg and was like, "I wanna do a collaboration, um, an editorial series about scent and memory. Um, you know, maybe we release a perfume. 174 00:28:15.976 --> 00:28:23.485 Like, what do you, what do you think?" Like- What if? That's great... and they're yes people. They're yes people. And they were like, "I wish more people would bring us stuff like this." 175 00:28:23.536 --> 00:28:34.836 Um, you don't really know who's a yes person until you approach them. Some people are, like, a lot more neurotic than they present themselves, um, online. And it's like, well, now I know. Um, but it's great. 176 00:28:34.846 --> 00:28:44.896 And the thing is, like, at the end of the day also, like, to me, these are advertisements to larger companies, to the place with more stakeholders that, like, hopefully won't make my life miserable. 177 00:28:44.906 --> 00:28:48.096 But, like, this is the type of stuff that you could do with us. 178 00:28:48.156 --> 00:28:58.976 Like, I see it as, like, building a portfolio of things where it's like for people who lack the imagination to come up with what they would do with Dirt, it's like, look at the list. You could do a tote bag. 179 00:28:59.036 --> 00:29:06.515 You could do a shirt. You could do a perfume. You could do a digital fashion garment. You could do a zine. You could do an audio series. 180 00:29:06.916 --> 00:29:11.616 Now you pick off the menu because you have, you're the type of person that has to have a menu. 181 00:29:11.636 --> 00:29:21.296 But, like, the great joy of my life, and I will have to outgrow it at some point because, you know, these do represent larger opportunities for us to make money even beyond... 182 00:29:21.316 --> 00:29:35.956 Like, make more money than we make off of subscriptions, to be honest, is, like, I will have to work more and more with people who have to be presented the menu. Um, but I've really loved this, and I don't wanna stop. 183 00:29:36.196 --> 00:29:45.176 I wanna keep going, and I, I already know what our first collaboration of 2025 will be. So your dream, your dream is that, like, this is, like, like, this is, like, the streetwear brand idea. 184 00:29:45.236 --> 00:29:53.786 Not, like, literally streetwear, but, like, that this is something where you're just, like, creating these new things- Mm-hmm... bringing in these, like, limited edition objects into the world- Mm-hmm... 185 00:29:53.796 --> 00:30:02.296 that, like, are ephemeral in that there's only 100 of them or whatever. Mm-hmm. Um, like, that's what you are interested in making more than, like- And I think that's what people want. Yeah. 186 00:30:02.696 --> 00:30:11.975 Somebody messaged me yesterday and asked if there was more of the Dirt perfume, and I said, "No." Um, this is my, like, uh, long-time reader and, um- Yeah... but I don't think I even know their, their name. 187 00:30:12.076 --> 00:30:21.116 I know their, like, Twitter handle. Mm-hmm. And I was like, "No, there's not." And he, I think he... It's, like, I'm doing stocking stuffers for, I assume, wife. Yeah. 188 00:30:21.216 --> 00:30:31.756 And I was like, "Look, you can get, like, really great perfume samples from a lot of these companies. I'm gonna tell you my favorites, like Diessundirga- Mm... and Atalibra Durange." 189 00:30:31.836 --> 00:30:43.216 And he came back and was like, "I just ordered the Diessundirga sampler pack for her." Nice. So I mean, it is sick to be able to have, like, interactions like that. Yeah. Um- Wait, wait. So I really, like... 190 00:30:43.236 --> 00:30:53.056 Wait, I wanna ask you a question within this. So, like, I used to always ask people when they came on Curse While They Pod, and I stopped 'cause I, I... The, the answers weren't always that exciting. 191 00:30:53.076 --> 00:31:04.436 But, like-What do you think your responsibility is as the editor, CEO of Dirt? Mm. Like, whether it's to your audience, to people like Walden, like who, who like contribute to it. 192 00:31:04.486 --> 00:31:14.316 Like, what is your responsibility to like pe- to other people, to the people who like interact with Dirt? I'm laughing 'cause I feel like you saw like my therapy tweets this week- [laughs]... 193 00:31:14.906 --> 00:31:22.046 and this is like kind of the business equivalent of that question. Mm-hmm. It's like, I really believe that we owe each other everything. Yes. 194 00:31:22.076 --> 00:31:33.766 I hate the trend in culture right now that's like, "You don't owe anyone anything," da, da, da. Like- It's so just like individualist, like everyone- Yeah... for themself, like me, me, me. 195 00:31:33.766 --> 00:31:40.516 Maximizing your own happiness- Yeah... under the guise of wellness and self-actualization. I've been self-actualized since I was 10. 196 00:31:40.996 --> 00:31:54.056 [laughs] So [laughs] like what I'm going to do is like I'm gonna do the most that I can do in the world creatively. You should tweet that, by the way. [laughs] Maybe I'll, I'll- maybe I'll skeet it. [laughs] Um, like 197 00:31:55.276 --> 00:32:05.936 to do the most good that I can do in the, the category that interests me, which is like not saving the world. Yeah. It's media. 198 00:32:05.996 --> 00:32:14.956 With, and, and doing like the least harm, whether that's like, you know, if a freelancer emails me, I have 30 days to pay them. If a fre- Yeah... 199 00:32:14.966 --> 00:32:26.676 freelancer emails me the day after their piece is filed and asks when are they getting paid, I know, okay, I'm like, I'm not like, "I have 30 days to pay you. Like, your piece just ran. Like, go away." 200 00:32:26.776 --> 00:32:34.466 I'm like, "This person needs the money." Yeah. And I'm not gonna make them say that. I'm not gonna make them like come to me- Read between the lines... and humiliate themselves. 201 00:32:35.326 --> 00:32:46.076 "I'm running your payment this week, no questions asked." Like, all of that stuff adds up. Mm. Um, but yeah, and it's also just like make the world a more special place. I had to check in with my interns this morning. 202 00:32:46.096 --> 00:32:59.356 Like, our internship is so unstructured. Mm-hmm. I'm literally like texting them, and I was like, "Look, you guys, I, this is a very unstructured internship. You're in finals. Like, w- you're getting class credit. 203 00:32:59.436 --> 00:33:07.666 You're not getting paid. Like, what I can do for you is get you clips and write you a recommendation letter." Yeah. "That's what I could do for you." Which is huge. 204 00:33:08.065 --> 00:33:17.536 "And if I'm, if I'm texting you at a weird time and I'm pissing you off, tell me. If you're not sure what you're supposed to be doing, tell me. If you're not having a good time, tell me." Like- Yeah... period. 205 00:33:17.565 --> 00:33:20.856 Stand up for yourself, and- Like this is-... that's part of what you get for this internship [laughs] is some of the- You know what I mean? 206 00:33:20.896 --> 00:33:30.776 This isn't like the type of thing where you're gonna come in and like go into the fashion closet and get like yelled at by like a 50-year-old gay man. Sorry. Like, this is what it is. And, 207 00:33:31.756 --> 00:33:42.356 and the other thing is like I get a lot of, um, letters for people that are doing, going through the immigration process to get like I think the O-1. Oh, the visa. Um, and they want to, they're like, okay. 208 00:33:42.396 --> 00:33:47.056 They're so, it's, it's a nightmare experience, and everyone is like so apologetic. 209 00:33:47.106 --> 00:33:59.136 They're like, "My lawyer's gonna send you a letter that basically makes it sound like I was like Dirt star writer-" You're like, "Obviously I'm gonna help you"... and my like talent is like uncomparable. Yeah. 210 00:33:59.166 --> 00:34:10.066 And I was like, "Why are you apologizing? Send me the fucking letter." Yeah. "I'll sign it." Like, no question. I'm not even gonna read it. Like, sign, sign. Yeah. Sign. Like, because, like, I can, right? 211 00:34:10.256 --> 00:34:15.256 Like, why, who would ever say no to that? Why would you withhold that? Yeah. Yeah. Why would you withhold? I'm like, great. 212 00:34:15.345 --> 00:34:25.296 Like, God, I hope I can be a nexus in you like getting to stay in the city that you love- Yeah... and a country that you wanna live in to do the thing that you wanna do. Like, never apologize for that. Mm-hmm. You know? 213 00:34:25.536 --> 00:34:37.766 Um, so it's like all the little things. It's not like anything major. It's just like actually being in a position to like not only like do no harm, but also like- Yeah... lift people up. Do good. Give them- Yeah... 214 00:34:37.766 --> 00:34:50.256 their first byline. Um, help them have a positive experience after being laid off from another media company. You know, be the person who's like, "Y- your value. You have value." Yeah. "Your work has value." 215 00:34:50.996 --> 00:34:59.076 Um- One thing... Wait. So I'm not- Yeah... I'm not gonna ask you this question. W- we don't need to linger on it too long, but just like, like I always ask people like what, you know, what is, what is a creator? 216 00:34:59.116 --> 00:35:06.636 What does that mean? Uh, and one of the definitions I've liked that I don't know if we've talked about elsewhere is, this is like one of the most broad umbrella ones. 217 00:35:06.836 --> 00:35:22.446 It's like somebody who contributes to the corpus of the internet, and I've really s- gotten stuck on that one 'cause it, it to me like implies that responsibility, that the internet is something that like we, we being like people, whether it's like you're a company making an app that people are using- Mm... 218 00:35:22.476 --> 00:35:27.146 or you're like somebody making a post on an app, or even if you're somebody liking a post, right? Mm-hmm. 219 00:35:27.156 --> 00:35:36.676 It's like we're all just like contributing to this thing and like shaping it and, you know, throwing little pads of clay on it here and there- Mm... and scraping some off there. I don't know. 220 00:35:36.736 --> 00:35:47.996 I, I, I think that's one thing I like about Dirt and your approach is that like you have that kind of principled take where it's like you want to make the thing good and not the filler, not the slop. Yeah. 221 00:35:48.056 --> 00:35:52.916 I mean, I think, eh, being a creator requires like having something to say, and- Yeah... 222 00:35:53.216 --> 00:36:01.866 I actually think like being a contributor to the corpus of the internet doesn't actually guarantee that you do have something to say. No. No. That's like too broad. Yeah. 223 00:36:01.916 --> 00:36:09.346 Like, there's a process of creation, and a lot of things enter the internet without having gone through that process. Yeah. 224 00:36:09.456 --> 00:36:15.416 Um, they don't exist, and then they exist, but it doesn't really mean that they were created, if that makes sense. Yeah. No, but I, but I think it's like 225 00:36:16.956 --> 00:36:22.496 y- y- you are, you are contributing that, to that corpus- Mm-hmm... whether like you're doing so thoughtfully or not. And so I think it's like- Yeah... 226 00:36:22.506 --> 00:36:26.476 the idea is that like you should be thoughtful about it and like, you know, far be it... 227 00:36:26.516 --> 00:36:33.696 Like, I've tweeted so many stupid, worthless tweets that I've then gone on to delete that didn't need to be contributed to the corpus. [laughs] But, um- Right... 228 00:36:33.736 --> 00:36:41.396 I don't, I think, I think it's like- It's like it goes beyond like recognizing other people's interiority. Like, it's also like having a theory of your own work. Yeah. 229 00:36:41.516 --> 00:36:48.556 Like, I've talked about how annoying it is when people don't have a theory of the future but they think they're gonna start something. Yeah. 230 00:36:49.156 --> 00:37:02.556 Even worse is like they have no theory of themselves, their own creation- Yeah... what they have to offer, what they wanna say, what's important to them, what they value. And why do it? Like, yeah, you can growth hack. 231 00:37:03.136 --> 00:37:11.756 You can growth hack a newsletter and sell it and never have asked yourself any of those questions. And to me, I'm like, "Go do anything else." Yeah. "You'll probably make more money." That's perfect. 232 00:37:11.856 --> 00:37:22.596 Go be Gary Vee and drive around to yard sales and look for like rare Beanie Babies because like there's, adults are, adults are talking here. [laughs] Like- I think we'll end it right there. [laughs] Okay. 233 00:37:22.696 --> 00:37:32.036 Um, so go to Dirt. I knew you were gonna do that to me or force me to some sort of- [laughs] Once again... like kicker. Well, why not? Um, go to- Why not?... dirt.fyi. Subscribe, read it. It's good. Listen to Tasteland. 234 00:37:32.676 --> 00:37:37.416 Anything else? No. Cool. Thanks for listening, everybody. Goodbye. I'll see you next week. 235 00:37:39.636 --> 00:37:55.496 [outro music]