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Welcome back to the Creator Spotlight Podcast. I'm your host, Francis Zier, and we are joined today by Rachel Karten.

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She's a social media consultant and the creator of every other person who works in social's favorite newsletter, Link in Bio, which she's been writing for about four years. Um, she's won a Webby for her work.

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She's also judged the Webbys. You often say that you are not really an expert on social media, but I think in as much as anybody can be, I, I feel like you are. I'll take it. [laughs] Yeah.

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So I first heard about you, uh, as I think a lot of people did back when you worked for Bon Appétit.

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Um, I remember in like 2020 being on social media and like, you know, it's like tagged like @milkcarton in all these posts. I'm like which, which YouTube character is this? I don't recognize this person from YouTube.

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Um, but, you know, didn't forget the name, and then like a couple years later, uh, I heard of your newsletter. Um, but to give like the full very quick background, like you started in social.

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You worked at this company Plated out of college, right, which was like a meal kit delivery, and then Bon App. And you did both of those for like four years, which is each- Yeah...

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which I feel like is so rare in this- [laughs]... industry to work somewhere for, like that for so long. Um, but what I'm really curious about is like how you started contributing to the internet.

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I think I heard on an interview that you had a food blog in college. Is that correct? Yes. I had a food blog. I also was just like the friend who would write all of their other friends on like Facebook captions- Wow...

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like in high school. I even wrote a college essay about how I write Facebook captions, and I got into that college, but I didn't go. [laughs] Um, but I just was like always online, always the person who,

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I don't know, was like, I had the f- blog in college. It was like a food and fashion blog. Did you- It was horrible... do you, I know you like lived for New York a while. You didn't go to college in New York, did you?

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No, I went to the Claremont Colleges. Okay. In California? Um, in California. Yeah. Um, and I studied organizational studies, which is like the liberal arts version of like a business- [laughs]... um, w- major, I guess.

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Um, and so when I worked at Plated I actually started off doing like HR for them. Um- Mm-hmm. And community, right? C- like HR, community, customer experience, and social, like all- Mm-hmm... in one.

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Like, you know- Too many things... one of the first employees, too many things. Um, horrible experience doing HR. Do, like if you have anxiety, like do not work in HR.

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[laughs] I was like, did, I would wake up at night and be like, "Did I like file that form?" It was- Yeah... really, really terrible.

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Um, so I eventually made the case to work in social full time for them, and that was my first real job in social media. Mm-hmm.

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Um, before we get too deep into all these things, I, I like, obviously while I was researching, researching you I was thinking a lot about, you know, food, social media, food Instagram, and like the type of food content I get.

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I'm a big, I used to work in restaurants and I like, you know, big, big food person, me. Um, so nowadays, like you do still, like I think you consult for Cava.

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You still work with various food brands, um, not like strictly though anymore.

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Uh, do you think, or like how do you think the state of like food social media, food Instagram, food TikTok has changed in let's say like the past five years? Like is it different?

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I mean, I think like it's just gone from, you know, legacy media being, you know, where you go for food content to creators.

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Like when I, I, I think like a good like barometer for me is like when I, you know, sit down on Sunday to plan what I'm gonna make for the week, which is like something I love to do. Mm-hmm.

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I'm going to like Instagram accounts of people that I follow to like make recipes, and I'm not going to the usual like, you know, media sites that I would- Your Pierce Abernathys et cetera. Yeah, yeah.

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Like I'm making, like Cabbage's World, if you follow them. Yes. [laughs] That's the person I was thinking about. They're so good. I just made, I just made an amazing like cold somen noodles from them. Mm-hmm.

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And it's just like I'll wri- I'll like save them and that's how I'm finding recipes. So I think like that's a huge sw- sort of switch, um, that we've seen. Yeah.

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That's interesting, 'cause I still, like I save those recipes, but um, like I do the same thing on like, you know, Sunday, like make my grocery list, what am I gonna cook this week?

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Uh, but I just kind of save the recipes as like, I more just consume it as like l- aspirational lifestyle.

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Like I feel like both those two sp, I literally wrote those two specifically down, Pierce Abernath- Abernathy and Cabbage's World, 'cause they both have this like beautiful aspirational Brooklyn brownstone life.

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I mean, I live in Ridgewood, but it's like, I don't know, my apartment's not as nice as theirs, but anyways. [laughs] Um, how do you define the word creator?

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I th- I'll give you my definition too, but I think it's a slippery word. How do you define the word creator?

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I mean, a creator in the, you know, interner- internet, internet sense is like somebody who makes something for the internet, whether for their own accounts or it could be for other accounts. Mm-hmm.

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They aren't making things to... Oh, my God. No. See, I can't do it. No, no, no, I'll stop you there. I know it. I think, I think you did it. [laughs] I think you defined it. Like 'cause, 'cause I think about this a lot.

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I think it's like, okay, like you can, it's exactly what happens, where you start saying that, then you're like okay, and you start to add like hedges and qualifiers.

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But I think like the most umbrella version of it is like somebody who is creating content for distribution online to an audience, uh, outside their immediate friends and family that they actually know. Sure.

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Like for me, like that's, right? Yeah. Yes. Mm-hmm.

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I feel like I then, 'cause then whenever I use the word creator I'm sort of like using it up against influencer, and what's the difference between an influencer and a creator, and so then I get all like- Well, okay...

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messed up. What is it? Yeah. To me a creator, well, see yeah, it's like very biased of like- Mm-hmm...

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an influencer is somebody who's, you know, selling their lifestyle on the internet, whereas a creator is somebody who's like selling their craft on the internet.Yeah.

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I think, well, the reason I want to talk about this- You can be both, though. Yeah. I think it, I think it, like the line has only blurred more, where like to be- Yeah...

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a good influencer you have to have the craft, and you have to be selling- Yeah... both.

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And like to be, if you wanna be a creator, it's like the reality of putting enough time in that the craft is good is like you have to be making money from it somehow, or, you know, or just for the love of the game and you're like a software engineer.

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Um, but yeah, I think like it's kind of collapsing in on itself, right? I know. I know. I agree. Mm-hmm.

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And who's to say somebody who makes, you know, amazing vlogs of their day in the life isn't a creator in their own way too? Yeah. So it's, like, not fair to, like- Well, they are... like... Yeah, they are. So. Mm-hmm.

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Yeah.

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Um, inasmuch as, like, you in your, like, work life as a social consultant work with, with influencers and/or creators, um, I guess for any listeners who are maybe on the creator side and, like, wanting to work with brands, what, like, what would you say, like advice or guidelines for working with brands for creator influencer types?

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I think something I look for is just, like, um, I don't know, somebody who's creating unique, uh, interesting content.

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And, like, I, I look a lot at, like, if I'm thinking about working with somebody, what, what do their sponsored posts look like? Mm.

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And how much effort and sort of excitement are they going into their sponsored posts with?

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Because I think, uh, influencers' organic posts can look a lot different than their sponsored posts, and I wanna see that they're, like, putting, you know, good effort into them. Putting real juice in it. Yeah.

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Yeah, yeah. Have you ever worked with creators, like, as, like, them being your client? Like, have you ever, do you ever work with individuals or just brands at this point? Just brands. I've had people reach out.

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I just, I don't think I would know what to do- [laughs] Yeah, well-... as much... that's interesting, 'cause, like, when I...

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Another of my, like, you know, creator meta thoughts is that it's such a, this is true of really any industry like film, you know, writing, whatever, where there's like you're, you're good at the creative side or you're good at the business side.

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And like, you know, maybe the Venn diagram you're in the middle, and that's great, but I think most people really aren't.

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Um, and I, I don't, like, I don't know, I don't- I feel like I don't see this happening so much and most people aren't, like, big enough to justify this, but, like, I keep saying that more

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people who are good at the creative side should be, like, looking for people who are good at, like, the business and the marketing side. Mm. So, like, I don't know.

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It, it, it makes sense to me that you say that you haven't and that you're not sure how you would, but I feel like that is a, a market that could arise or that, like, maybe should arise.

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I definitely have friends who are influencers who have social, like, videographers that work with them. I think, like, I find, like, especially if they're filming recipes, like they need somebody who edits- Yeah...

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social first. And so I see it more, like, tactically than, like, strategically of, like- Mm-hmm... pulling in social people. Yeah.

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You know what you're doing, you just need somebody to, like, take over a part of it for you. Yeah, yeah. Mm-hmm.

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Um, okay, so part of why I'm talking to you is that we are promoting, uh, the Webby application for this season's Webby Awards, and you are a past Webby winner, uh, alongside Emily Schultz, for both of your work on Bon Appétit socials back in 2020.

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Um, and then you also judged this last year. So I read on your Twitter that you judged over, you helped judge over 60 categories. Um, what kind of questions were you, like, dealing with when you're...

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Like, first of all, first off, I get, I, I trust that, like, the categories were mostly social or, like- Yeah. [laughs]...

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first what, what were the categories, and then what kind of questions are you, like, grappling with to decide if somebody should win an award? Yeah.

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So I was judging social, um, categories, and the way they break it down, it's like can be, like, social food, social- Mm... I don't know if these are exactly correct, but, like, video games.

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Like, every industry is, like, basically represented. Yeah. And so that's how you get to, like, 60, [laughs] 60, um, applications. But, um, or categories. But it is a really time-consuming process.

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But I, you know, having been on the other side of somebody who's, like, submitted to the Webbys, I'm like, I want somebody like me to be- Yeah... judging these. I want...

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You never know who the judges are, I feel like, with a lot of these things, and you're like, are they people who even get social? Do they understand, like, why this might be innovative or unique?

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And so that's sort of the way that I was looking at it. I was looking, um, a little bit at, like, performance of it, and then also just, like, what kind of swing did they take? Is this so interesting that they did this?

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Um, but it's a lot of, like, kind of poking and digging around, because I think intentionally they don't have the applicants, like, write anything. Mm.

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So you're just sort of really judging the work for what it is, and so- That's smart... a lot of sleuthing, a lot of sort of clicking around and understanding, like, how the audience received it. But- Yeah. Yeah.

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What was like, um, of, [laughs] of those 60 categories, was there any particular creators who, like, you remember now where you were like, "That one was so good. They were so deserving of that win"?

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[laughs] Like, as if I remember anything. [laughs] Over 60. I mean, I guess you are familiar with a- As if I remember anything-... a decent few... like [laughs] Yeah. Um, yeah.

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I, I, I remember, um, there was I think Macy, who works at Morning Brew- Oh, yeah. She's great...

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one of her videos that are, like, so good, and I was, like, so excited to see that in there 'cause I think it's so, the storytelling that they do with that series is amazing.

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So that's one that I remember, and I was like- Yeah... so good. Yeah. No, they're, they are really good.

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Um, is- okay, it's interesting what you're saying about, like, the, the sleuthing around and, like, figuring out whether you think they deserve to win, um, because I, I wanted to ask, like, what you think, like, not even just necessarily the Webbys, but, like, what you think makes a really good creator.

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Um, because, like, I'll, I'll, I'll just give this context, like with Creator Spotlight, right?

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Like, I try to look for a lot of different people, where it's like maybe something about the way, something about the content is really good and the way they're approaching it, but maybe it's a very small audience, but it's like-I like that they're putting so much work into something, even for a small audience.

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Or it's like- Mm-hmm... they're good at the marketing side and it's that. Whatever. I think, I, I think there's so many different things. So for you, though, like what do you think makes

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a really good creator that is, makes them deserving of recognition? I mean, to me, I love, I love like something that feels at home on the internet, but like nothing I've ever seen on the internet.

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Like, I think a good example that I, like never stop talking about is, like Planet Money's TikTok. Like- Ah, yeah... Jack Corby and, like what he's done with that, like where it feels so- Icon...

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familiar but, like, nothing I've seen, and it performs and it does well. And, like that's such a rare thing to get 'cause I...

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There's so many social posts that, you know, you take that risk of trying something new and nobody sees it because the algorithm hates it, and it feels too unfamiliar on the platform.

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And so to be able to, like have all those, like diagrams overlap with, like what Planet Money has done is very impressive to me. Yeah. Um, okay, this...

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I'm gonna read a quote that you wrote in one of your newsletter issues back in spring 2021. It was like the first few months of your newsletter. Okay. Uh, it's...

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You're, you're talking about Gary Vee here, and you say- Oh, God. [laughs] "When I [laughs] when I originally came up with Link in Bio, I jokingly referred to it as the anti-Gary Vaynerchuk social media resource.

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I wanted it to highlight lots of different social media managers and never just be me doling out personal advice week after week.

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Doing social for a nonprofit is very different from doing social at a huge agency, and doing social at a beauty startup is very different from doing social at a legacy magazine.

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I recognize that I don't know everything there is to know about social media, and unlike Vaynerchuk, I don't pretend I do." [laughs] Um, does that still describe what you're doing? Definitely.

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I mean, I, the interviews are still, they're actually every week now, and I love talking to social managers who work in different fields, and I think that that's, like the best part about Link in Bio. Yeah.

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So okay, so Link in Bio, it's- Yeah... it's a newsletter, obviously. We haven't really described it. Yeah. Uh, it's basically two issues a week.

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One is an interview, and the other is kind of like mix of essay, roundup of social trends, like, you know, more your commentary, right? That's- Yes. Correct. Mm-hmm.

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Um, and you've been doing it for three and a half years, four years? Something like that. Yeah.

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You started doing it, I understand, like you, you left Bon App, and then you, um, started make, doing the newsletter and consulting at the same time, and, like they've kind of fed each other.

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Tell me more about that, like symbiotic relationship. Yeah. I mean, I think I started the newsletter, um, not as like a, like lead generation- Yeah... you know, like thought leadership thing.

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I was sort of like, "I need this resource to exist. I want to make it, and, like let's see what happens." And I didn't, I sort of like published when I could, and it wasn't like I was, like super strict about it. Mm-hmm.

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And then to, like make money during that time, I also consulted, which was, like you know, pretty necessary to do.

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Um, and so, but then of course, over time, now people s- you know, reach out all the time, "I love your newsletter. Do you consult?" And so- Mm...

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it has worked out to be a very good sort of, um, way for brands to discover me and my consulting, but it was never, like created for that. Yeah. Okay. Um, you've now got, like over 65,000 subscribers, right? Yeah. Yeah.

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What is your relationship with that audience? 'Cause, like when I look at the... It's on Substack. When I look at the, like at the comment section, sometimes the comments are totally dead. Other times- Yeah...

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it's like 50 plus. Um, and then there's also, like I'm sure, email replies. You've got the Discord. Uh, whatever. I'm saying too much. Tell me about your relationship with your newsletter audience. Yeah. I mean,

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I, I think, like the Discord is where a lot of the conversations about the newsletter happen. Um, and so I just found that to be the best place, um, for people to talk to each other.

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I thought that was gonna be really important. Mm-hmm. I think, like a lot of the built-in s- tools at Substack, um, are a little bit more, like one way. Mm-hmm.

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And it's like you can, like blast out, or, like it's like a chat, like thread, but I wanted a more sort of, like living, breathing, like always on chat.

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Other people create, like threads within your ecosystem, within the Link in Bio ecosystem. Exactly. Yeah.

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And it's like there's tons of, there's, you know, a chat room or whatever you wanna call it for, like every industry. Mm-hmm.

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So people who were also work in beauty can, like ask each other questions and exactly to, like what I said- The niche approach. Yeah... three years ago. Like every industry has their own government, social, freelance.

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Like every industry is represented, and then there's also just, like generic, like gut check. Mm. Like, "Hey, I'm thinking about doing this post. Is it a bad idea?" Like it's...

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So that's like the living, breathing version of Link in Bio, and I think that's why, like you know, sometimes the comments aren't, you know, like going back and forth because it's usually happening, I would say, in the Discord.

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Yeah, yeah. Um- Um, I know, I mean, so I, like I said earlier, you w- one of your, uh, many hats, uh, plated was community manager.

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Uh, I also, like read one or two back issues of Link in Bio where you're like, you know, kind of railing against the, like brands trying to fake a community by making a, by making a Discord, making a Slack, whatever.

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Um, I don't know. Uh, uh, I guess, uh, well, how do you... What, what is community? Like community as a word that actually has meaning and not just, like something brand marketers say. What is community?

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I mean, I think, like brands making a community is a tough sell. [laughs] Um, I'm still not even sure if I understand completely what that looks like. Yeah.

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Um, because there's always sort of like capitalistic, you know, things in mind. Which is anti-community. Right. Mm-hmm. Um, I'd say for, like a newsletter though, I do think, like community can be real. I think, like

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um, I think, like the DiscordBecause people talk to each other and, you know, then go off and DM each other and do meetups in their own places. Oh, nice. Like, that feels like community because I'm not like...

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I'm j- in it, and I'm responding in it, but it's not like I'm, like, sanctioning who can talk when. You're not making rules. And all of- Yeah. I'm not making rules. Um, so

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yeah, I think there is a difference between brand communities and, like, newsletter communities that, like, where, like, you know, one, community's, you know, aligning around loving a product, whereas one community's aligning around, like, we all work in the same industry.

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Yeah. Yeah. I've been, like... I work alone, and I've been, like, dying to talk to somebody else- Mm-hmm... who also does what I do. That makes sense.

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What I feel like with, with like brands, like the brand wants to like, they want you to love the product, but they also like, they're like, "Oh, we wanna o- like we wanna own the social media manager."

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Like Sprout Social, and maybe they have a community, I don't know, and I know they're a sponsor of yours, but I'm sure they would love to have, like, this community be, like to have created this community.

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But it's like a brand can't really do that. Yeah. They can sponsor your newsletter- Yeah... but they can't really do that, yeah. Yeah. Um,

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I- one thing I often ask people, and I will say people don't, usually don't have an answer, is like how you think about your responsibility to your audience. I mean, I think about that a lot.

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I think about, I mean, the reason that I also created Link in Bio is just, like, I felt like social managers were always sort of like looked down upon.

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I mean, I try not talk about this that much, but like the intern thing is very overused. Mm-hmm. But I still think it's like indicative of how people think about people who run social media. Um, and so I wanted to

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be an advocate for social managers. And so like I just today, like announced the compensation survey- Yeah... so that people can see what other people make who work in social roles. It's like so all over the place.

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You ask one person, they make this, and another person, it's like, what is the true sort of like bands of like what a director makes. Mm-hmm. And so that's like very important to me. And so

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I think always just advocating for the roles and never talking down to the audience or slamming, you know, what one strategy is. Yeah. I really don't like criticize.

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I'll criticize Gary Vee, but I'm not gonna criticize like a- That's punching up... brand. Yeah, exactly. [laughs] Um, I'm not gonna criticize a brand's social media. Like, there's some, you know...

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I've seen social managers who, "Here's what I would do if I, like, redid the grid for this brand." I'm like, that makes the social manager for that brand feel like shit, so I'm not gonna do that. You know? Yeah.

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Like, I think that there's, um, a level of like, you know, instead of saying like, "Memes suck, don't use them," it's like, "Well, here are some tips for creating like super original content that I love." Yeah.

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It's like- Productive... giving- Building her up. Yeah, productive conversations, yes. Yeah. Uh, no, I like that.

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That's, I mean, I think that's one of the reasons I'm, like, drawn to Link in Bio and that it, like, reads as such a quality product. Um,

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b- because like I said, a lot of people aren't thinking about the responsibility to their audience.

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And I think like when we were just talking about, like, what's the definition of a creator, if it's like, you know, people making content for distribution online, like I think there is inherently a responsibility there.

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And like I talk to journalists sometime, um, somet- some who are like from a traditional journalistic background, some who are more of like an indie creator background, and I think that's where this line really is, where like the ones from the traditional background have been taught these, like, ethics and, you know, in- codes of con- of conduct, conducting yourself with integrity, whereas like the creator side, like, I don't know, lacks that.

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Um, which I don't know how, how that's solved, but I, it's, I don't know, it's something that makes me sad. I think, yeah.

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I mean, I definitely think my wor- like time at Bon Appétit, working at Condé Nast, like being, like the process of like being edited is like a very helpful thing, especially when writing a newsletter. Yeah.

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And like, um, know like, you know, there's been discourse about this, but like, you know, know you don't need to be like an amazing writer to write a newsletter, but like it certainly helps. [laughs] Mm-hmm.

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Like you can't deny that if you have like a very clear writing style, it's gonna be better than like somebody who y- isn't as, like, clear in their writing, right? Yeah. Like, I don't know.

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Well, the discourse you're talking about is Emily Sundberg's Machine in the Garden post. Yeah. Yeah. Right? Which I think your response to that was one of the, the most coaching clear, which I don't...

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For anybody listening who doesn't know about this, basically this was like a few weeks ago, um, by the time this comes out, it'll have been like a month ago. Emily Sundberg, big Substack writer, she made this post, um...

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I don't, it, uh, uh, it's almost, it's tough to talk about it, 'cause it was like everybody had so many different takes on it.

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But basically she was saying, like, there's, the Substack in particular newsletter market saturated, there's so many people who, like, don't seem to be offering much value. And then your take was...

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I'll, well, I'll let you say your take. My take was that, um... Well, my take is basically like you wouldn't, a platform is different than a social media platform. Mm-hmm.

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And but before Substack introduced notes and some of these more algorithmic features, it was just like, you know, MailChimp, for example. MailChimp. Mm-hmm. Yeah.

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And you would never be like, "I can't believe people who send newsletters on MailChimp, like, don't know, you know, write listicles." Yeah. You wouldn't care, because they're just using it as a tool.

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But when you're putting things in an algorithm and you're leveling certain things up and certain things perform better in that algorithm, well, then that's when a machine enters the garden is when there's an algorithm present, so.

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Yeah. Um, okay.

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Y- so on two recent podcasts you were on, you kind of were asked to give a hot take, and you said that people say they want the default chronological Instagram feed back, but that it is back if you want it, and nobody uses it, because nobody actually wants to use it.

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Which, like, to me is sort of a defense of the al- like a, a how I learned to stop worrying and love the bomb defense of the algorithm.

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[laughs] So I'm, I, I wanna a- like is that a defense of the algorithm, or is it just a, like, you know, dismissal of nostalgia for a different time of social? I mean, I think it's a defense of-A algorithm.

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It's not like I'm, like, in lo- Like, I think, like, TikTok's algorithm is, like, amazing. Like- Yeah... you know, like- That's nice, yes... you don't have to follow any... Yeah, you don't have to follow anyone. Mm-hmm.

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It just, like, knows because you finished, like, one video that, like, now you're interested in, like, seeing how wasps get killed by gasoline, which is- [laughs]... my current situation. Um, but yes.

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I don't think, like... I th- I don't think Instagram's algorithm is perfect, but I think, like, there's a reason you haven't seen that person's posts. It's 'cause you have never engaged with them. Yeah.

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So, like, tell it what you like and it will probably show it to you again. But if you, like, never like or engage with that person's content, like, yeah, it's probably not gonna show it to you again. That's...

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Yeah, that's a good point. I mean, it's like, uh, disliking, disliking TikTok and wh- your content is, like, just disliking what you look like in the mirror kind of. [laughs] Um, okay, back to the newsletter. So- Yeah...

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you've got around 65,000 subscribers now. Um, I think you'd said in another interview that when you first announced it back in, like, 2021, um, that you, like, instantly got 8,000 subscribers. Uh, how...

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Has it just been, like, kind of organic word-of-mouth growth or how has that... How- how have you gotten to 65,000? Yeah. I think it k- it...

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There's nothing that I can think of that was like, oh, my gosh, that's, like, a crazy, like, pop. Um, I would say just which is the worst advice, publishing consistently, but, like, I do feel like- But it is...

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consistency- Yeah... um, and it's the type of resource that I think, like, I see, like, a lot of referrals from Slack and Teams, which I think is funny. It's like- That's pretty where you want...

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clearly people are sharing it- Mm-hmm... um, there. And so it's the type of thing, like,

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if you work on a social team, which, you know, every company has a social team, like, you're probably gonna want to subscribe to it because it's relevant to your interests. And so it's just been- It's kinda like a-...

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sort of a slow-... trade mag. Trade rag. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, for social. I'll say it. [laughs] Um, sure. But I think that, yeah, it's been just, like, a really consistent

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growth, and I'm always like, there can't be more people who work in social that want to subscribe to this- Yeah... and somehow there are. And- Well-... also people, I was, yeah, I was gonna say, like- Yeah...

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say to me all the time, "I don't work in social, like, but this is so interesting to me because, you know, I work in marketing," or, "I am so curious how all of this happens," or, "I work in influencer mark..."

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Like, there's so many relevant things that would make somebody wanna subscribe to it. Yeah.

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I think, too, like, with that, like, I mean, going back to what we were talking about, but, like, having responsibility to the audience and, like, caring about creating something quality, like, I think, I think people hear the, like, you know, pu- publish consistently thing.

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But, like, that only works if it's, like, a quality thing. You're publishing consistently and you're, like, re- you know, caring about the audience.

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Um, with, like, the people who don't work in social too, like, I think, I mean, I often talk about Casey Lewis' After School. I've interviewed her- her on here.

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Um, I feel like most people who have newsletters know who she is. She does a great job. Um, it's the same thing there, right?

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Where, like, most people aren't working in, you know, aren't marketing to Gen Z, and that's kind of, like, what she writes about.

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But, like, it's just really interesting to, like, know what's going on because it's kind of like, yeah, it's kind of like a trade- trade rag situation. Mm-hmm.

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But it's, like, more about, like, just knowing, being aware of, like, it's just news. It's, like, pop culture news, and that's what you're doing too really.

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And I think I hear from a lot of people like, "Oh, my God, social media, like, stresses me out. I'm, like, so not, like, you know, online."

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And, like, I give people a very easy way to just sort of do one scroll and see what's going on. Yeah. And they don't need to, like, log into every app. Spend hours on TikTok. Yeah. Um, yeah. Okay.

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So the newsletter, I know, like you said, it makes... it, it brings you consulting clients even though that was never the intention. Uh, there's also, you have a job board.

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Um, I believe that's, like, part of the business for you.

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Uh, and then you do have a paid subscription model, which is, like, the extra, um, like, kind of the essay, social media trends part of it, and then the Discord community.

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Um, you started doing the paid subscription a little over a year ago, right? Yep. Why did you... What was, like, the dec- 'cause you'd been doing it for, like, two years at that point.

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What was the decision, and how did that change your approach to, to making this? I think, you know, with consulting,

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I was ending up working on the newsletter, like, at the end of the day, at night, on weekends, and I was like, "I would love to be able to work on this in the morning when my brain is working best, and I want to, like,

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make it something that, you know, is sustainable for me." Mm-hmm. And so that was really the motivation for it of just, like, you know, I think that I'm spending a lot of time making this and- Yeah...

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not during work hours, and I'd like to make it, like, my job. Mm-hmm. Um, so that was a big piece of it for me.

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So, okay, so, like, you don't have to say, like, you know, exactly how much money you make on this, but would you say it's, like, how does it stand up, like, as a percentage of your business, like, against...

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Like, is it more than any consulting client? Like, is it, you know, 33% of your income, et cetera? Yeah. I would say it's about, I'd say it's about 60% of my income. Wow. Yeah.

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Well, I mean, I, I have to imagine you have a lot of, uh, a lot of premium subscribers. Maybe. [laughs] Yeah. Okay.

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Um, okay, so, uh, again, with Casey, when I was talking to her, uh, she has a lot of premium subscribers, and I, I was like, I think part of why is it's like, it's this one-to-many consulting, and I think that's what your newsletter is too.

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Um, and I was thinking about that earlier, like an hour before we got on this call, you sent out the, um, your yearly social media compensation survey that you were just talking about. Yeah.

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And, like, that to me is, like, the definition of that, where, like, for, what is it, like $5 a month or $8 a month, um, you can, like, you know, you're paying for, like, your consulting services where even if you're just, like, a, you know, a social me- like, early career social media professional, um, and you wanna, like, figure out how much you should be paid, it's like, this is, like-You're paying for, like, this consulting service about your career.

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Do you think, like, that... Do you feel like it's this one-to-many consulting? I mean, well, first of all, the survey will be free, and so you won't need- Yeah... to pay for the results of it, so that's important.

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So sometimes it's like- Right... yeah, like when you, when you are paying for a subscription, you're also supporting the free interviews, and you're supporting- Yeah...

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the fact that I hired somebody to help me do this survey, and, like, I could not do it myself, 'cause the first time I did it myself, it was, like- [laughs]... horrible.

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Um- 'Cause that was before you even were paying yourself to do this. Yeah, exactly. [laughs] Yeah. Um, so, like, that's great now.

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Like, the results will be really helpful, and they'll be able to, like, be more actionable, I think, than when, like, I did it before I was getting paid, and that's a very clear, like- Mm-hmm... um, sort of benefit.

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Um, and yeah, I mean, I think, like, w- especially on those, like, Tuesday newsletters, like the way... What I, like, paywall is very intentional. Like- Yeah...

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that is, you know, I'm giving post ideas that, like, I will see brands the next few days post- Tuesday, yeah... those post ideas very clearly, and, like, that's awesome. Um, and it's very tactical advice- Mm...

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that I think, like, if I was doing a one-on-one with your brand, maybe it would be a lot more tailored, but, like- Yeah... some of those ideas could be in there.

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Um- You'd probably use them the week before, you know, give your- Yeah, exactly... give your own clients a lead. [laughs] My clients get the early access, okay? Yeah. If you really want, you can pay the consulting fee.

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[laughs] They do, actually, though. That's true. [laughs] Um, and then the interviews are intentionally free because- Mm... I want who I interview to be able to share it with their community- Yeah...

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and I want them to not feel like, you know, "Oh my God, she interviewed me, and then she put it behind a paywall. Like, pay me for that content"- Yeah... you know?

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So I think that's very intentional, and those interviews do bring in new audiences, and, um, you know, I think I've, like, surveyed my readers before, and, like, they much prefer, I think, the strategic advice because- Mm...

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it's, you know, can help them. I've heard from companies that they, like, sit down and read the newsletter together to, like, brainstorm post ideas for the week. Like, that's a very helpful feature.

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But the interviews lead to, like, discovery and- Mm... can lead to, like, um, weirdly, like, on Twitter, like, you know, I talked about, like, the New York Public Library using memes.

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That was, like, something that was really talked about on Twitter- That was a really good post, yeah...

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of how the New York Public Library did that, and so I was able to then post it there, and, like, that did really well there 'cause it's almost newsy, um, in a way. Mm-hmm.

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Um, same with, like, when I interviewed, like, the Mohawk Chevrolet in, um- Yeah... woman. If you haven't checked out their account, you should.

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Um, and so, like, some of the more newsy pizza- pieces, like, that are interviews do very well on, like, Twitter, for example. Yeah. You also- Um, and I wouldn't wanna paywall them...

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I mean, I think we talked a little bit about LinkedIn, but, uh, like, looking at your LinkedIn feed, you do a much better job of, like, uh, anyone I can think of, like, repurposing, you know, your newsletter for LinkedIn.

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Like, it's not easy to get. That con- You're consistently getting, like, a few hundred, and I think you have, like, m- maybe it was more, but maybe, like, 25,000 followers- Yeah... on LinkedIn.

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Um, I almost feel like LinkedIn is, like, more effective for you than Twitter. It depends. I feel like, I feel like with LinkedIn, I'm talking to, like, the same people kind of over and over again, which- Mm...

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there's nothing wrong with that. Um, and their algorithm, I do find it to be very, like, friendly. Like, they'll, like, something will go- Yeah... and be shot into some, like, you know, fast lane that I'm down with.

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Um- The HOF of LinkedIn... that's what... [laughs] Yeah. Yeah, exactly. No, that's, that's how I think about the algorithm. Yeah. [laughs] It's literally like we're in the left lane right now. Yeah. [laughs] Um,

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but on Twitter, I get, like, you know, a lot of... And this is helpful for a newsletter business. Like- Mm-hmm... if I have a tweet that goes viral, like I wrote about, I did a tweet about

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averaging the graduation year of the people who work on Kamala Harris's- Oh, that was good... or Kamala Harris's- Yeah... um, social team. Campaign, yeah. Campaign. And that was from my newsletter.

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I did that initial, like, work for my newsletter, but then I t- turned it into a tweet, and then, like, you know, The Washington Post reached out wanting to talk to me about- Yeah... Kamala Harris's campaign.

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Just because I saw she did a viral tweet about their campaign, I will use her as a source. And, like- Yeah...

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I think, like, when you write a newsletter, having your newsletter in papers of record in, like, in legacy media is... Maybe it doesn't do much, but I think it's nice. [laughs] Okay. How about what's like...

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What is your proudest moment, uh, in the past three and a half years, or, like, a highlight when you're like, "Um, I'm so glad I did that interview," or like, "Wow, that was such a smart trend I spotted," and, like, the Kamala, um, the Kamala age thing.

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What's, like, yeah, what's a highlight from the past few years? I mean, honestly, and I'm not just talking about this 'cause I just sent out the new one.

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[laughs] But when people would DM me saying, "I used your survey, and I just got a raise- Mm... because I was able to point to, like, what other social managers make."

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Um, or when I get DMs like, "Oh my gosh, the idea that you had in your newsletter is so good. It just, like, performed so well for us." Like- Yeah... that's so cool to see, like, the- To serve your audience...

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to serve my audience, to, like, be actually genuinely helpful, um, and, um, to, like, impact something, like, real that's being put into the world- Mm...

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whether it's on the internet or it's, you know, into their bank account. Yeah. No, I mean, that's, that's really cool. I feel like you probably get... I mean, just being in the Discord too, I don't know.

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Like, I think one thing with a newsletter, like with Creator Spotlight, like, I don't get so many replies, right? And I'm like, "Is this thing on?" You know? Yeah. [laughs] Um, so I don't know.

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I feel like hearing from people like that is, like, the most gratifying thing. Um- Yeah...

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so I think you've probably interviewed, like, I don't know, hundreds of, maybe, maybe just dozens of, but probably hundreds of people, uh, at this point. Um, what do, what are...

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Are there, like, any traits in common that you think, like, good social managers have?I mean, something that I think about a lot of, like, when I think about some of the most, like, innovative social managers is that a lot of them have, like, comedy backgrounds- Mm...

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which I think is really interesting. Um- That makes sense... and so that is always interesting when I'm like, "Why are you so good at this?" And they're like, "Oh, I, like, do comedy on the side." I'm like, "Oh, okay."

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Like, [laughs] "Dang." Yeah. And I know, like, y- I interviewed the woman who runs @Elmo, like- Oh... is the voice of Elmo on the internet, and she is doing, like, stand-up classes right now.

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So it's, like, almost working backwards too of, like, it being, like, a really good sort of trait. Part of the training. Like, if you're not trained in comedy, then, like, maybe I'll try taking a comedy.

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And I've always thought also, like, improv would be a great, um, sort of just, like, non-technical skill for a social manager to have. But that's something I've noticed. Yeah. That makes sense.

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No, I mean, 'cause, like, one of...

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That's, like, one of the main across any, whether it's like, you know, an independent creator or brand, whatever, like, coming up with, like, skits and, like, regular sketch series- Yeah...

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like, that's, an- with, with video at least. It's... Yeah. And a lot of, um, like, agencies' copywriters are comedians as well- Mm... which I didn't realize. Yeah. Thinking on your feet, et cetera. Yeah.

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What about, like, any, I don't know, like, outlier traits? Like, any, like, some- something maybe you don't see a lot but that, like, you're like, "Wow, that person is so good because they have X"? Um,

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I mean, I think about the, like, Mohawk Chevrolet where, like, you're working, your, your company is a great set. Yeah. And just, like, a dealership, like, that's a funny set. Clean. It's like The Office level.

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And I think that there's, like... Exactly. Yeah. Which it is, like, basically they take The Office. So I think, um,

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I think it's, like, a funny thing when the set of where the TikToks are taking place is just kind of unique, um, or not just your average, like, office. Um- Mm-hmm... I've seen, like, funny...

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I mean, if it's, I don't know, I don't necessarily, like, love his content, but, like, Dr. Miami is huge. Mm-hmm. Um, and it's like, you know- Well, something, something that you said-... the sets is- Oh, sorry.

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Um, something- No, go, go...

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something you said recently that, that I feel like is describing this that I really liked was, like, or maybe it was some- somebody you interviewed said this, uh, "You're ordinary is their extraordinary" or something like that.

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Yeah. Yeah. Mm-hmm. I love that. Yeah. Somebody I interviewed said that, and I was like, "Wow, that is a really clear, like, statement and such a inspiring one that, like..." Um, I don't know. Yeah.

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You just think about, like, there's all these things that you take for granted as working in a certain place, and then it's like most people have no idea how that works- Yeah...

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and they'd probably, like, watch a whole video of you explaining it. Like, your shit is weird. Like, [laughs] whatever it is, you have to remember that. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

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Um, like I said at the beginning, I think probably your newsletter is every other social media manager's favorite newsletter. Um, I think it's kinda becoming this institution if you choose to, you know, keep doing it.

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Where would you like for it to be as, as a newsletter, as a concept, as a community? I don't know. Where, where is Link in Bio in a year, and then also let's say, like, three years? I think five is a little too far.

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Yeah. Um, I would say in a year I'd like to just be, you know, continuing what I'm doing. I think, like, for me, I would love to... I've done a few meetups, but, like- Mm...

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I think there's a lot of opportunity, I don't even wanna say it out loud, but I'll say it. I'll say it.

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[laughs] I just think there's a lot of opportunity for, like, a social media conference that, like, is actually really helpful and, um, you come away with it not feeling like you're just, like, bombarded with sponsors, but, like, you feel like you met- Mm...

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like, some other really talented- You've spoken at a few, so. [laughs] I know. [laughs] And I'd still like to be invited back, of course. Yeah.

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But, um, more like- Well- And not like, you know, not like a conference in the sense that you would even imagine a conference.

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And so, um, I think, like- No, this, I mean, s- sorry to interrupt for a second, but I think- Yeah...

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like this is what you're talk- this is what, exactly what we were talking about earlier with, like, communities and brands, where, like, uh, any conference is, like, their business model is, like, you know, some tickets, some sponsorships.

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And so it's like- Yeah... it becomes, like, it's not, like, yes, it, it's, like, meant to, like, you know, bring social media managers or, like, whatever industry together.

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But, like, it only works because, you know, seven brands gave $100,000 each. So, like, when you say- And now they're the ones talking on the stage. Yeah. [laughs] And I'm like, "I didn't wanna hear from you." Exactly.

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"You paid your way onto the stage." Exactly. And so, like, I'd love a conference that, like, did not even have sponsors, and it was just put on and, like, um, it just felt really intentional and, like, actually helpful.

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And you're not hearing from the CMO who's then talking about the social strategy- Mm-hmm... that they didn't even work on. It's coming from the people who are actually in the weeds and doing that work.

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Which then that only works if it's, like, you aren't trying to make a huge profit from it maybe. Yeah. And it wouldn't be for that. Yeah. Would you do it in New York or LA? I'd do it in New York, I think. Yeah?

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I think that, I think that, I think it's honestly just easier, easier to, like, gather people in New York- Mm... than LA. Yeah. I mean, you just take the train. Um, yeah, exactly. Mm-hmm.

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Um- Five years I'm writing a column- Oh, yeah... for The New York Times. [laughs] Oh, okay. Fi- Well, no. Okay. That, that's what I was gonna say. Um, would you ever, like, just do this full time?

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Would you ever, like, quit the consulting? Or y- you're in it for the love of the game? I really think the consulting is what makes me- It beats it... good at writing the newsletter. Yeah.

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Because I'm in it, and I feel it, and I think that's, you know, really so important, um- Boots on the ground... to it. Yeah. Yeah. Mm-hmm. So I will never stop consulting. Um, yeah. You hear- you heard it here first.

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Um, cool. You heard it here first. All right. Rachel, where can people find your work? www.milkkarten.net [laughs] um- That's two Ks... is my newsletter. Oh, yeah. Um, and that's my handle, M-I-L-K-K-A-R-T-E-N. Perfect.

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Uh, thank you for joining. Um- Thank you for having me. Yeah, of course. Listeners, uh, I'll be here next week. See ya.

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