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Having something that you're obsessed with, for most YouTubers, is something we all have in common. If you're not doing YouTube, what are you doing? You, I think, at your peak, had fifteen million total audience.

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How did you pull off this exit? Every day I worked really hard, and every day I thought, "Okay, what do I have that I've created value in that I can create more value from in the future?"

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Most creative businesses today are still merch companies or clothing lines. That's not a good business to have. Let's say, like, five years from now, what do you think you're working on?

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The goal is to funnel a billion dollars within the next eight years, uh, to creators. Wow. Welcome back to the Creator Spotlight podcast.

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My name is Francis Zier, and today we're speaking with Caspar Lee, formerly one of YouTube's biggest stars, who has semi-retired now and hasn't really been uploading videos for six or seven years, but at his peak, had fifteen million followers across platforms.

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Today, he is an entrepreneur, the co-founder of an influencer marketing agency, a creator talent management firm, a student housing company, and Creator Ventures, which is a VC firm.

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Full disclosure, Creator Ventures was an early investor in Beehive, and Creator Spotlight is owned by Beehive.

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We had a great conversation about exiting as a creator and translating creator skills into entrepreneurship to build long-lasting businesses. I hope you enjoy.

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[upbeat music] One topic that I haven't had the chance to talk to many people about is the idea of the exit for the creator, right?

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You, I think, at your peak, had fifteen million total audience, mostly on YouTube, but also cross-platforms. Instagram, I think, is your second biggest. Um, and you have kind of successfully left that behind.

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Now you are an entrepreneur much more than you're a creator. You don't-- I mean, I think your most recent YouTube video was two years ago. You haven't really... You've posted maybe three in the past seven years.

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Um, you've successfully exited. Um, but my question is, like, when did you start planning that?

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Was this something that you were very consciously like, "Okay, I'm getting a little tired of being on camera, and I need to engineer a future for myself"? How did you pull off this exit? I like calling it an exit.

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That's the first time someone's done that. Um, usually an exit involves being paid a bunch of money. [laughs] Uh, but this exit, I guess, uh, yeah. It w- it wasn't planned. I mean, um,

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I, I kind of just took off a week, and, uh, that week turned into a few months and then a few years. Uh-huh. Um, so that's what's strange, 'cause basically I'd built this, um,

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I'd built this other, I guess, couple of platforms that, um, I felt could be where I could spend more of my time in life, which one was an influencer marketing agency called, uh, influencer.com.

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I'd co-founded that with a guy called Ben Jeffries. Uh, and then another one, um, is called MVE. I'm still at both. Yeah. They're not was. They're not in hindsight.

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Uh, but, uh, they, yeah, they were, they were both opportunities for me to not worry too much about stepping away and then, uh, not only stepping away, but actually, as you say, exiting or, or others call it quitting [laughs] Uh, while they're ahead.

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Um, but, uh, yeah, so, so that's kinda-- It was, it was kind of a bit smoother than maybe it sounds in hindsight, where I've taken a big risk or I've like, like s- you know, announced a big goodbye. Mm-hmm.

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It was more smooth. Um, but, uh, I'm really happy that while I was a creator, I was always thinking about building other things that I could go and do when I wasn't a creator. Mm-hmm.

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Not only from a financial point of view, but also just from, like, a meaning in life. Um, having something that you're obsessed with, I think for most YouTubers, is, uh, something we all have in common.

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And if that's only YouTube, if you're not doing YouTube, what are you doing?

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So, um, for me, you know, I realized, yeah, YouTube was an obsession, but what I loved actually even more about YouTube was, like, collaborating and building things from scratch and convincing people to make videos with me.

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Uh, so being an entrepreneur is very similar. Mm-hmm. You collaborate with loads of people, either co-founders or teammates. Uh, you start things, um, from scratch. You invent things.

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Um, and you have to constantly spend time convincing people to do stuff with you.

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Uh, so there's a lot of leverage in entrepreneurship and a very similar sort of leverage that you get on YouTube where you're like- Mm-hmm...

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you get to a certain level, you can convince certain people at that level to collaborate with you. Same in business. Yeah.

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Uh, so a lot of things I want to come back to here, but one is, um, the difference between a creator and an entrepreneur. Uh, we [laughs]

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I for-- I guess, I guess first we have to define creator, which is one of my favorite topics to do here. Mm-hmm. Um, I ask less now, but I used to ask every guest, "How do you define the term creator?"

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Because you get different answers, right? I mean, the term originates with YouTube. I think in twenty eleven, they start to call, um, top YouTubers creators instead of YouTube users.

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Um, now, well, I won't tell you my definition yet. How do you define the term creator right now? Yeah, I mean, it's a, it's a tricky one. Uh, and that is someone [laughs] who creates content. Um,

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I, I would push it to someone who creates content in a more democratized fashion than what we used to do- Mm-hmm... in Hollywood and on television.

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Uh, but I think now you're even seeing those sorts of people coming over and becoming creators. So it can literally be someone who creates content to not even an audience. Yeah.

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It could be just someone who creates content internally for a company. Um, it could be someone who creates UGC. It could be someone who's a micro, macro. It could be a celebrity.

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Uh, so it's become a hugely vast group of people, which means when people say, "What do creators like these days?" [laughs] Or, "Can I do something for creators?" It's almost a useless question.

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And it's like, yeah, it's like f- most, yeah, most people who are trying to re-reach consumers are kind of creators. Um- Yeah. So my- So, so yeah The answer? Oh, good. Yeah. Okay.

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No, I was, I th- I think, I think, I think I... Yeah, that was probably it.No, that's perfect. I mean, the, I, basically I agree with you.

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I mean, I've had to tune an answer, um, when I started doing this that would guide, okay, who do I interview, right?

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Like, if this is Creator Spotlight, what is, what does, what defines the type of creator that I interview?

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Which that has become somebody producing digital content for distribution on digital platforms who is growing an audience for that content beyond their friends and family, and who is somehow monetizing it.

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But more broadly, it's just- That's a good definition [laughs]... I like to say somebody who's contributing to the corpus of the internet, right? Yeah.

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Which another way of putting that is, like, uh, in a, a previous marketing job, a manager of mine was like, "Look, Francis, we're just competing with anything anybody can look at on their phones."

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And so that's another way of defining a creator is somebody who makes stuff that you [laughs] look at on your phone, right? Yeah. Um- But then now that's being disrupted by YouTube becoming so prominent on TVs.

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On TVs, yeah. Um, so yeah, it's, it's literally... And then also creators now are trying to do stuff in real life, and it's like, "Guys, what are we here?" Yeah. We're basically just humans who entertain.

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Well, this is, and I, I- Maybe that's what a creator is. Yeah. It, it becoming- Humans who entertain and, and teach- Mm-hmm... and inspire. I don't know.

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It's becoming kind of, like, I think in 10 years, maybe, maybe early, maybe sooner than that, but I feel like 10 to 15 years it's just a word that, like, nobody uses because it's just implied or everybody uses because it is everybody.

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When you, when I asked you the exit question and you were like, "Well, it wasn't really planned so much," um, you, you had started, uh, influencer.com and you had started MPE Management, right, your, your talent management company.

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Um, and because these weren't direct to consumer merch or product lines, right, because they were not reliant on you being the face and, like, you selling something that w- had to do with your content, like, that then set you up for an exit where you didn't have to, like, you know- Yeah...

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let's say you had started some brand where you're selling some product that is so reliant on your personality or whatever, it would've been much harder 'cause you would've had to still keep producing the content as a marketing channel.

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Um, so what, what you're sort of advocating for is, like, yeah, that's fine, but that is going to make it much harder for you to turn off the camera. That's a really interesting point.

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And then it's, what's really hard is trying to build a really good company and have a really good YouTube channel. Yeah. I think it's easier with, like, TikTok and, and Instagram and short form content. Mm-hmm.

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But I think having a really good YouTube channel is, is hard to do while you're doing other good companies. I think, you know, you do get MrBeasts who, who seem to do both really well. Yeah.

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Um, but, you know, you need proper partners and co-founders if you're gonna do both. Um- But even MrBeast, I understand that-... to be quite honest... his, his media arm loses money.

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Um, I, I think m- the last year's numbers I believe it was, I don't have the exact numbers, but his media arm and his, um, consumer goods arm, which has Feastables and such, like, they both made a similar amount of revenue, but the consumer goods arm made a profit, whereas the media arm took a loss.

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Yeah, I mean, and that could be a strategy, um, to, you know, to, to not, to break even or lose money on- Mm-hmm... on that or, or it's just really hard to focus on all of that all at once.

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And also, I guess, the type of content he makes, um, is just so ridiculously innovative that it's like maybe it's not a well-trodden path to have a really profitable business that can create that level of, uh, production value and then distribute it on s- on social media.

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Mm-hmm. Um, and so yeah, it's a whole... I mean, he's in a whole new territory of media, and who are we to say that that should instantly be profitable?

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But the fact that he's, he's built another business off the s- off, off, you know, the side that, that is where his profit center potentially will be is obviously smart. I just- Yeah...

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I just think it's, it's a lot of, you know, creators who aren't focused on their channels and then do start a business, and the reason their business is successful is 'cause of the channel. Yeah.

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It goes into this, like, kind of negative spiral, um, which is, is, is really tough. Yeah. Um, okay, so the businesses that you do have, as far as I know you're the co-founder of four.

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I'll list them by the order of how long they've been active. I think influencer.com was the first, then MPE Management, and then you started Proper Living and Creator Ventures I believe around the same time.

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Um, so am I missing any? And at the moment, which of these is consuming the most of your time? [laughs] No, um, you're not missing any. Um, I do some random shit on the side, [laughs] but I- What most?...

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I won't get into that. [laughs] Uh, but, uh, and I also play, sometimes play golf on weekends, but that's not a business. [laughs] That's not a profit-making enterprise. Uh, yeah, I mean, you know, I, I mean, my...

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I spend a lot of time on, on all of them. Like, it, there's not, like, a, a particular day where- Yeah... I'm like, "This is a day for that." But, like, obviously Influencer now has 180 people. That- Wow...

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that's a lot of, of kind of not only working with clients and, and all of that, but having a bigger team also comes with work in itself. Um, and then, uh, you know, the fund, it's myself and Sasha Koletski.

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We're actually super happy to, to say that we're, you know, we're early backers of Beehive. Mm-hmm. Um, and, uh, yeah, the cool thing about those two businesses, well, uh, well, Influence...

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Actually, all, most of them, uh, maybe besides the student accommodation- Yeah... is that they all kind of like- It's a bit different category. Yeah, exactly. They all kind of, like, give me things that help each other.

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Mm.

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And so, like, for example, with Creator Ventures, the fact that I have such a close relationship with maybe the various social platforms because of influencer.com's relationships with, like, TikTok, Meta, uh, YouTube and so on,

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gives our portfolio companies access to those relationships.

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Or w- uh, Influencer being, like, a fast growth, um, influencer marketing agency learns so much from some of our, like, uh, AI marketing companies we've invested in in the fund that I can then bring some of those thoughts back or I can introduce them to founders that are, like, doing innovative stuff.

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So it's really cool. And then the same happens with, like, the, the talent management company. Mm.

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There'll be times, like, there's a deal we did, uh, called Runner, which is, like, a running app that re- recently exited to Strava.And a few of our talent are, are running creators, and so we were able to work out very early on, like this was a really sticky, um, application for creator affiliate because the running creators were getting really...

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They were getting well paid for their work talking about, um, Runner. Mm. And Runner was getting really good business from them.

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And so like when you see that happening, you're like, "Shit, that's some good insight that as a venture capitalist, like is useful." Yeah.

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So all of these things can kind of help each other, uh, which, which I like, and it wasn't intentional. It wasn't like I created, I created this whiteboard or I had this strategy.

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[laughs] But it, it seemed to just kind of fall into place. You didn't have the Walt Disney map of, uh, here's the empire- No... that famous thing. But that's the thing. Maybe in hindsight, that's what people do. They...

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Once- Yeah... once they, they... I feel like you do a bunch of stuff, you see what works, and then you pretend you had a vision for that. Then you write the memoir. [laughs] Exactly. Exactly. Um, okay.

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I'm not there yet, but maybe one day. I, I, I do wanna get into, um, the specific businesses. So first, influencer.com, um, been around for about a decade.

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Obviously, the influencer marketing industry has changed a lot over that time. My like TLDR perspective, and correct me if I'm wrong, is that basically back then, it was a little more Wild West.

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Brands didn't necessarily know what they were doing, didn't know how to deal with, um, creators or influencers.

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And money, the, the deals could vary a lot more because there weren't these norms, whereas today, it's a little more calcified. There are these norms. Brands know what they should pay creators for X outcome, et cetera.

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Um, tell me about like, say, the difference, the main differences from about a decade ago, about five years ago to now. Like, what have been the major changes you've seen running this company? Yeah.

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I mean, a decade ago was 2015. So- [laughs]... um, yeah, it was, it was actually just starting out then to like...

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I, I think, you know, PR companies were, uh, doing influencer marketing campaigns when they had a little bit of extra budget. Mm-hmm. Um, you know, there, there were some innovative things going on.

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Some brands were, were, were doing things. Um, a-and then, uh, uh, you know, the, the next five years, you saw all of these companies, including ourselves- Mm-hmm...

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um, try to find out who were the right customers to build these businesses for, and most of those became enterprise customers, so your, your kinda big-name brands, your like, kind of your Googles, your Amazons, et cetera.

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Um, and, and they were the main ones, creators maybe were collaborating, uh, kind of five years ago. They still are. It's growing every single year.

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But then what's interesting about now is that you've got a lot more kind of startup companies coming into the mix trying to do influencer marketing too. Mm. So it went from like...

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It's, it's kind of funny how like I feel like almost like the enterprise companies almost came into influencer marketing more seriously slightly before, maybe because the agencies that were starting convinced them to do it.

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Uh, and now you're just seeing like everyone doing it. Um, and, uh, and, and obviously the, the startups who are doing it well have really got proven models that c- you know, that make sense on paper.

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The CFO completely understands why this is a place they should be spending a lot of their marketing dollars. And then you're seeing the enterprises today now going, "Okay, we need to do the same thing."

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You're seeing like, you know, CFOs of companies buying other companies and going, "Holy crap, your influencer marketing division's insane. Like, h-how is it so profitable?" And they're, they're educating each other.

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So ultimately, the market's getting smarter.

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Um, and, and with that means, you know, as an agency, um, you know, your tech needs to be better, your people need to be insane, um, and, uh, you just gotta work really, really hard, uh, because there's so many...

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With more money in the industry, there's more competition, there's more options. Mm-hmm. Um, so yeah. And people always go, "Does it feel like it's plateauing?" Like,

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it doesn't really when you're in it because I still, I still think there's, like, so much momentum from, like, the, the big, big companies still just starting. You're seeing Unilever like- Yeah...

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saying that they're gonna spend a lot more money here.

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Uh, and then, you know, once, once someone like that says it, a lot of other people think about it and, um, so yeah, it's, it's, it's definitely more, more momentum and, uh, more accountability is required because of that.

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Mm-hmm. Um, on... So on either side, the brand side and the creator side, what would you say are, like, the main challenges you're having to help each party work through?

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I would imagine for brands it's probably still like you have to give up a bit of control. That's part of why this works. And then for creators, I don't know what it would be.

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But yeah, from the brand side and the creator side, what are kind of the main challenges that, that, that your, your agency, um- Yeah... helps them mi-mitigate and manage? Yeah.

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I mean, it's kind of similar things that I suppose, I think, that a creator and brand struggle to be able to achieve. Like, the creator wants to be able to

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make really relevant content that their audience is like, that's, like...

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And that's hard to do when you've got, you know, multiple parties involved, but not only that, when you're dealing with such a big brand that maybe can take time to make decisions or, or they've already been sold on a particular creative.

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Mm-hmm.

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And then you as a creator think of a really cool idea, and it's like, "Well, no, you know, we, we've got this big creative that 100 creators are doing, and you're, you're part of that, and we want you to make your own spin on it.

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But you're not, like, the center of this thing, and therefore you have to s- you know, you have to fit within this wider campaign."

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And it's influencer.com's job to basically, to, to, to make those two parties talk to each other and hear each other and understand like- Exactly... "Well, this is why this thing works well."

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And it's, it's the fact that we have those, those relationships and expertise- Yeah... to, like, make it so that you don't need...

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You can bring the stakeholders together in a, in a better way through our technology and through, like, just the experience and knowing, like, these are the things we need to answer now so that we don't have issues down the line.

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Um, and I think a lot of people just think it's like maybe, oh, you, you call a brand, and then you call a creator, and then that's it, but there's so much, like, logistical communication.

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There's, like, product involved. There's so many things you can only know about if you've done a bunch of campaigns that we try and, like, get ahead of- Yeah...

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to, to try and make ourselves more nimble so, like, we can be faster. Um, because if, if you can create content a fast way, like creators know how to do and they do organically well- Mm-hmm...

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uh, and if you can do that for brands, you'll just have better results. Do you think there's a difference between an influencer and a creator? This is another of these, of these conversations I love to have.

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Yeah.Yeah, I mean, it's a funny one. Like, we have the name, our company is called Influencer. Mm-hmm.

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Like, we've, we've got that name, and our website is influencer.com, but we generally don't use the word influencer when describing creators. Mm-hmm. Um, because I think creator is just a nicer word to be called.

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I don't like it when someone says, "Oh, you're an influencer."

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I just think it sounds like I'm trying to be on a reality TV show like Love Island, which is fine, but I think creators, as we've talked about, are so much more... It's so much wider spread than that. Yeah.

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It's not a particular type.

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Um, so yeah, I, I'll tell you, if you're gonna say the differences, I mean, an influencer is probably someone who has a lot of sway over what people think, whereas a creator might have to create really good content to convince people of something- Mm.

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-if that makes sense. No. Yeah. So you have some creators who are influencers, and then you have some creators who are just brilliant at, at making content. I, so- And people come to us for both. Yeah.

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My, my take on this is that maybe, maybe a decade ago when you guys were forming this company, um, influencer was a term people used.

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The c- the word creator wasn't so widespread yet, and maybe that was the era where, you know, being reductive, but you could, like do the, like, I've got the big audience, post a picture with a product on Instagram, and maybe that will m- do some sales.

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Or even if it doesn't do some sales, a brand is looking for that, whereas I think now, um, it's just so much more competitive, and there's so much, so many more people doing things that you need to be the creator.

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You need to be sophisticated as a, as a producer of content.

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Uh, and influence is something you wield and something you can practice and something a brand can hire you to wield, but there's no, like, nobody is just an influencer.

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There are creators who can wield influence, and influence is kind of this noun and verb more than it is, like, a category of internet user. Yeah. That's a good point, and I think

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it's also a lot harder just to be a, a quote-unquote pure influencer and live off- Yeah... that these days, um, because you gotta constantly convince the algorithm to feed your content. Mm.

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Audiences and algorithms and companies are all too sophisticated for that.

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Exactly, and so if you're just a, an influencer, that can last maybe a few months, uh, but unless you're also a creator who can, like convince them to come back and care about them, then- Mm-hmm...

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uh, obviously there are some names out there I think will just be influencers no matter what they do. Yeah. Like, they're just famous. Yeah. Um, but, you know, we know who they are.

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Hey, if you're enjoying this conversation, consider subscribing to the podcast. We release a new episode every Tuesday. All right, back to the show.

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I do wanna talk now about Creator Ventures, so I'll give kind of my understanding of the abbreviated history.

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Um, it started as sort of this investment club in 2019, you and your business partner, and I believe cousin, Sasha Koletski, right? Um, and so there was that original kind of investment club, smaller deals.

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You had some other creators and friends you were bringing in.

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There was that stage, and then I believe fund one launched in 2022 with $20 million, and then fund two, uh, launched earlier this year in May with $45 million, and you've invested in companies like Eleven Labs, like Beehiiv, um, who owns Creator Spotlight.

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Uh, and my understanding too with the name, I think this is an important distinction to make because a few weeks ago as we record, I interviewed Billy Parks, who is on Slow Ventures Creator Fund, which is, um, about the similar size actually, but you guys do different things.

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They invest in creator founders, whereas with you guys, the creator in the name is more a reference to your perspective and expertise rather than the type of company you invest in. Correct? Yeah, so

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we basically help our, um, portfolio, uh, with all things like social and marketing. Mm. And then we do a lot of other stuff that venture, uh, funds help founders do.

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Uh, Sasha has, like, an incredible background in, in kind of both private equity and, and working at technology companies. Mm-hmm.

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Uh, and I think 'cause we're called Creator Ventures, uh, yeah, people think we just invest in creator, uh, economy startups.

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While we do that, it's mostly, um, consumer kind of internet businesses that we invest in because they're the ones who, um, we think both are, um, uh, the biggest opportunity for returns- Mm...

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but also, uh, they really want support, um, in, in, in social and creative because that's how you build a consumer internet business today.

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Um, and being an investor is all, is all about, um, you know, getting access to the best deals. Mm-hmm. And to do that, you, you don't just do it with money. Um, that's kind of a prerequisite.

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It's relationships again a little bit. Yeah, yeah. It's relationships, but also you do it with, um,

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with providing value once you've invested, um, and because the next time you make an investment, y- you know, a reference call will definitely happen, and you wanna be kind of the best investor on your portfolio's cap table.

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Um, uh, so, so yeah, we, I spend a lot of my time, obviously I spend a lot of time investing with Sasha, but like, I spend the majority of my time at the fund trying to help our founders, um, kind of build go-to markets, um, do their influencer marketing strategies, all that kind of stuff, and we've got th- this incredible network of, of, of, of people we've worked with in the past who we also like to introduce them to who we know are like, "This, these are your people you need for this.

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These are the people you need for that." Mm-hmm. And simple stuff like that, like, is actually very useful. Yeah. I, uh, so I wr- wrote down this quote from the TechCrunch article when Fund Two launched back in May.

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Uh, this is a quote from you. I'll read it out. Um, "A lot of consumer internet founders find that the real exciting go-to-market strategy is around social.

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A lot of these founders are becoming creators in their own right, and that's something I love to get involved in as someone who comes from that world," which now in the middle of this conversation, I'm thinking back at the beginning when you were talking about the exit and, like, what this is now is, like, y- again, you having found a way to, to turn off the camera, so to speak, but continue sort of plying your trade in understanding how to put stuff out there on the internet and, and engage with audiences and, and play the algorithm game, and, like, that now is the value, value you bring no longer to the, you know, to Casper at, on YouTube but to-Any given company that you're investing in Yeah, no, it's, it's, it's so...

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I really enjoy it, and, um, it's, it's cool that they want to be creators. Not, not all of them do. Some of them have to 'cause they know it's, um, gonna be beneficial. Yeah. Uh, but I love to help them with that.

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And then it's, it's obviously not only just them becoming creators, but, but that encompasses a lot of it. Uh, it's, it's helping them build their whole team to be able to have a very sophisticated, uh, channel.

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So- Mm-hmm... um, yeah, I love it, and, uh, it, it, it definitely kind of, uh, scratches the creative itch I, that I enjoy doing. Um- Mm-hmm...

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I'm, like, so lucky that I get to, to, to do these, you know, different roles, uh, that basically all existed because of something I fell into as a teenager.

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Uh, so all of this wasn't planned, but, like, I, I, I don't know. It's, it's almost like I just followed these paths.

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Every day I worked really hard, and every day I saw, "Okay, what do I have that I've created value and that I can create more value from in the future?" Mm-hmm. Um, that's kind of been the strategy. Yeah.

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Um, what defines a perfect investment opportunity for Creator Ventures? Well, that's funny 'cause we were actually talking about this, like,

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w- because we invest in pre-seed and seed, like, you, you never have a perfect opportunity. Mm. There's always something that's wrong.

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Um- Well, you're always betting on the jockey, not the horse, at that stage, right, as the saying goes. Uh, yeah, y- yeah. There's sometimes... Luckily with consumer there's a bit of a horse sometimes. Yeah.

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But, like, I think some people ask us, like, "We want the perfect time. We want the perfect founder. We want the perfect traction. Um, we want the perfect team."

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And it's like, it's like you nee- if you don't compromise on anything, like, you're gonna miss the good opportunities. That's not what seed stage is, pre-seed is. Because it doesn't exist.

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And if it had all of that, it wouldn't be seed stage, or they might do some crazy [laughs] crazy seed that you- They might not need your money if they already do all that. [laughs] Yeah, yeah, exactly.

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Um, and, and, and so who cares what it's called? It's gonna be super expensive, and you're gonna pay, you're gonna pay for it one way or the other. So, um, yeah.

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But, but obviously, obviously, yeah, it's all the normal things. Um, uh, but, but I guess one thing we think is, uh, we can help a lot with, like, the marketing and, like, um, that side of things.

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Whereas, like, the teef, um, tech- the deep technical understanding or the d- the deep domain expertise that they have, um, is super important. I think, like, Tyler's a great example- Mm-hmm...

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of someone who, who we saw could both- Tyler Denk at BHCO for the listener... yeah, exactly. Mm.

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Who could both build, like, product, he could build tech, uh, uh, and he could, he could convince the, the right team to help him do that. And then, um, he also kn- you know, knows newsletters, like, better than anyone.

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And, and so w- we think that's a really good combination. And then he, he became an incredibly good marketer very, very quickly. That's amazing. So we didn't need to help him much with that.

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But, like, that's something we think can be kind of more taught. Mm-hmm. Um, a- a- a- and, and then I, I think we also, like...

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You know, we, because we're not, like, a corporate venture fund, we're, like, just two people, um, yeah, we're, we're able to make kind of contrarian bets on people- Yeah...

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where others might go, "Oh, well, you know, you know, they're fro- you know, they're, they're even from this country. That's not normal.

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We want everyone to be in SF," or, um, th- there's this weird thing going on here with this structure. It's like, well, yeah, but that's looking...

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Like, we, we're, we're confident enough to make bets even when it all doesn't come together. Just like I said earlier, if it's gonna be perfect, it's probably, like, too good to be true or you're gonna pay for it.

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That's not the business. Yeah.

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Um, something, uh, actually the way you brought up Tyler here too, uh, again, when I interviewed Billy Parks and then something his colleague, Megan Lightcap, wrote in their newsletter afterwards, the difference between a founder and a creator founder, which they, they invest in the latter, and I think you guys invest more in the former.

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But, um, I, I, I thought it was interesting. Wanted to share.

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So the way they defined it is basically the, the founder who i- might look a bit like a creator is more a Tyler, and they use Tyler in this example where he's, he's building in public, he's putting out all this content, but he is not the crux of the content, the product is.

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Whereas with the creator founder, and, um, the example of this was they'd just invested in this guy, Jonathan Katz-Moses, who's a woodworking creator, and, um, his, his, his trade is in selling woodworking products, right?

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He kind of is the face of the brand, and the brand relies on his face, and this goes back to what we were talking about earlier and how your exit was able to work out so successfully, right?

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Um, because you were - you kind of became more of the founder who was a creator rather than the creator founder. Mm. Um, but I thought it was, uh, uh... I don't know if, if you have anything to say on that.

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I just thought it was, like, kind of an interesting way of look... an, an interesting investment thesis on, like, they- Yeah... invest in the people who are the face.

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Um, but then again, you guys invest more in the people who are either are able to market the, their brand themselves as a building in public founder or n- or, or are willing to do that, and you help train them to do so.

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Yeah. I mean, I think with, you know, uh, Derek, kind of the way they invest, I m- I don't...

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I, I, I did speak to them, and, and I think I understand it, but it's, it's kinda like it won't necessarily be a creator like I was who- Yeah... um, creates content about their own life.

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It will be probably a creator, uh, as you say, someone who's doing something about woodwork or, like...

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Um, and also s- separately from what they're doing, there's a lot of these funds now who are investing in creator content, um, uh, that they think is, like, more evergreen content. Mm.

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And so that relevancy becomes less of an issue because it's like, yeah, they are the cr- you know, they're the face, but the people are coming to this show because of an interest that could last- Because of the knowledge...

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for, like, 10 years. Yeah. Mm. And even if you watch a video three years later, it's still relevant. Whereas if you, you know, y- if you watch an influencer type creator, uh, you wanna see the latest thing.

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Um, so I, yeah, I think that there's a lot of these funds now who are, who are investing in that kind of content, and yeah, they g- they gotta be really careful not to, to invest in people where, uh, it's all about the person behind the screen.

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It needs to be about- So much risk... hopefully the topic itself. Yeah. Um, another thing adjacent to all this is I've spoken...

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I've seen a coupleI think two businesses at least like this so far, um, and I've spoken to one guy, Jeff Frommer from owm.ai, and the premise here is to connect businesses with creators and for creators to sort of get a stake in the business in exchange for promoting, for doing work instead of a traditional just cash-based brand deal.

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Um, I wonder if you ever did that in your more creator-heavy days. So I, I, I think, um, cash is a, is a great bartering tool.

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Um, so sometimes I'm more of a fan of if, if you're gonna-- if you want equity in a business and you're gonna post about the business, for the business to pay you and then you invest in the business, or maybe you already invested in the business and then, then they're paying you to do brand deals afterwards in cash.

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I know that's may sound like less efficient because you're like, "Why do you need cash? Why don't you just do it direct for the..."

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I just think sometimes with, um, all the dynamics of funding and raising capital, when you're an investor and you hear like someone's getting some free equity, someone, they're not an official team member- Mm...

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and they're getting sweat, obviously that's very different when you're co-founding a business as a creator and you're getting a big piece because you're like, you're here for the next five years.

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But, uh- You have such a stake in it at that point. Exactly. So- You're gonna stay up nights to promote it and such.

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Yeah, but the idea of like, you know, having five creators who are ambassadors and maybe they have to post like for six months, um, you know, X amount of posts a year, and then they get some like certain equity at a weird valuation they don't fully understand, I kind of prefer just using cash as a tool.

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So I don't know that that particular business itself, it might be doing it a really small way. I've just seen so many times, um, where it gets too complicated for deals to get done. Yeah.

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And I'm like, "Why don't we just use this tool that already exists?" [laughs] And you can, and you can invest it the same.

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I also think like sometimes I've seen deals, and maybe this is a slightly separate topic, but I've seen deals where like celebrities, um, have wanted to invest in a company and, and that company's raised money and they can, you know, they already have reached their cap on what they're gonna raise.

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Mm-hmm. And they're saying to the celebrity, "We'll make some space for you." And then the celebrity goes, "Well, can I have like a lower valuation because I'm like a celebrity?"

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Or like, "Can I have some sweat equity to do this?" And then the, and then the company like considers it and then they go, "Okay, maybe not," because- Yeah... like, like we're not gonna do a whole new thing.

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You can't play sort of favorites.

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And then all of a sudden, like f- kind of three years later, that company goes on to sell and then the, the celebrity's probably sitting there going like, "Why was, why didn't I just spend some money to make a bunch of money?"

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Like, uh, and that's how I, that's how we've always thought at like Creator Ventures is like we're, you know, we're happy to pay. We're not here to haggle on every cent- Mm...

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because like especially in venture, you'd rather get into premium deals because you're providing value than get into sub-premium deals at a lower valuation because you're pro- providing value. Yeah.

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Um, okay, I wanna pivot a little bit. This is, this will be a bit of, a bit of speculation, and it's a little bit outside, you know, getting away from like your investment thesis a bit.

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Um, but one stat that I think about a lot ever since I learned this like six or seven months ago, um, the number of full-time equivalent creators in the US went from two hundred thousand in twenty twenty to about one point five million in twenty twenty-four.

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Insane growth, right? Growth of the creator economy.

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There's more creators, there's more creators in different niches, uh, there are more creator services businesses, whether that's a, a company like Beehive or whether that's an agency that, that's serving creators, whatever.

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Um, when I see that quick expansion, right, I also wonder about the risks. And I think for me, one thing I think about a lot is this idea of growing and educating the middle class of creators.

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And I think that's a big part of my work in Creator Spotlight is to, to highlight these people, learn how they're succeeding, and also sort of spread, um, business education and content production education to help these people succeed.

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Um, [lips smack] so part of why though is I think as this population of creators balloons, then like there's more people with less education in how to succeed here. Um, so I guess [laughs] that was a lot.

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My question- Yeah...

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to you is how you, how you think about that vulnerability, not necessarily just as like at Creator Ventures, because again, this isn't necessarily the kind of company that you guys always invest in, but as a former creator and an investor, I'm just curious, uh, your take on this.

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Yeah, I think it goes to that like the definition of creator is so wide now that when you're talking about this population, obviously I'm a creator, I care about creators, but it's just such a big group, so it's like- Yeah...

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uh, can I, can you possibly put them into a bucket and be like, "We need to improve this entire group." Yeah, 'cause as somebody making digital courses and somebody with like a paid newsletter- Yeah...

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and somebody on Instagram who makes all their money through brand deals, it's so disparate. Yeah. Exactly.

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Um, but, but, but one thing I think, um, you know, uh, I just, I just think this whole industry maybe gets-- One thing I'd love to improve is like the reputation this kind of creators have as people. Mm.

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I think because of the influencer word that I think also journalists in general maybe look at creators as like, especially in the past, they've kind of been, creators have been coming for their lunch a bit, so they've been like writing articles for like ten years about, you know, making us seem a little bit like lazy or influencer- Yeah...

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like. And, and so there is this like reputation that creators are, you know, they, they get paid, they're all very wealthy, um, and, uh, they don't work very hard and, um, uh, uh, and that kind of stuff.

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And, yeah, I, I think that's just not the case when you consider the numbers and as you say, like that- Mm... kind of that middle layer.

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Um, and, and so I, I, I, I just, I think that's something that we as an industry hopefully can just improve on continuously.

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And I think young people growing up already know this 'cause they now like look at creators as, as that rather than get told what creators are by the media. Yeah.

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Um, but in terms of the, you know, what creators need to succeed, uh, I think it's just, you know, financial stability is [laughs] super important, so platforms that can give creators that.

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So, uh, shout out again to Beehive, but like- Mm... uh, you can kind of own your audience on it. There's lots of other platforms that exist that can help creators monetize more.

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AndI think there was this, like, back in, you know, uh, uh, the early 2010s, like, I think audiences used to get kind of upset when creators were focused too much on monetization because it felt like, "Oh, weren't you just doing this because you love, you know- Yeah...

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you love to create?" But I think they're realizing again now, like, y- [laughs]

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you, you're providing value, and it costs money to live and to, to make content at a, at a level to com- to compete, um, today and to keep up, y- you need to be having a consistent income. Mm-hmm.

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Uh, so that's something the whole industry, um, c- can work on, and, uh, I think it, it comes from both brands, it comes from platforms, like social platforms as well, um, and then it even comes from, like, audiences being prepared to support creators they love.

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I think that the audiences aspect is, is a really good one. I just wanted to, to repeat. Like, back then, yeah, 15 years ago, as you said, it's like, "Oh, I thought you were doing this for fun.

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Like, what do you mean you want my money now? I don't owe you that." Whereas now people, people just know that like, "Oh, I like this person's stuff.

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If I want it to continue to exist, I have to press like on this sponsored post," or whatever it is, right? Yeah. There is more- Yeah... the understanding that this is commerce. And I think, exactly.

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I think, you know, creators building teams has made- Mm... a big difference.

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That just, as soon as the audience knows there's, like s- there's more cost to create this content than back in my day when you could just pick up a, a camera- Yeah...

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then, then it's like at least the audience knows that, like, their $10 isn't just being spent on pina coladas on holiday. [laughs] You know? It's- Yeah...

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it's actually- Did you have much of a, of a team by the end of your, by the peak of your content career? Uh, n- not really, no. Um, I, you know, I, I, I had like a, I w- I had like partners who would, like, help.

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I, I ha- I had a, a camera guy who used to edit as well, and then I had, like, a producer and stuff. But it wasn't like I built this, like, team of three or four ever. Yeah. It was always one or two.

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Uh, so it's funny, as soon as I went from being a creator to then building a big team [laughs]

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Um, I think, to be honest, I just love, like when I ma- I came from a time when, like, for me, making content was like, it was about filming it, and then it was about editing it, and then it was about uploading it, and I just, I always enjoyed that ownership, and I struggled- Yeah...

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to, like, give, give that away. And, um, and, uh, yeah, I kind of wanted to leave it there. Yeah. So what do you think about, like, kind, kind of the YouTube meta now?

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Would you, if you, if you were, you know, starting off again, do you think that's even something you would do, or is it, would it be, like, a little turned off by, by how much more is, how much more rigmarole is involved?

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You know, I, I actually think YouTube is interesting right now 'cause I can really see that when you make a good piece of content, it does get seen by an audience. I think they've learned from the TikTok algorithm.

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Mm-hmm. Um, and so yeah, if I was ever gonna do it again, I would definitely not start on my own.

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[laughs] Um, I would, uh, you know, try get something that's, um, you know, not just f- fully reliant on me, and it would probably be content that my own relevancy didn't, uh, matter.

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It, hopefully it was good enough that- Mm... if there was something going on in the world and we were talking about it, then it would get views because of that.

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So, uh, I'd love to do it around, like, uh, you know, business, entrepreneurship, um, but, uh, I don't have a plan just yet. Yeah.

250
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Uh, so content for you now, I think you've still got, it's like 6.6 million or so on YouTube, 2.2 on Instagram, um, LinkedIn you've got 50K. What is, what is content creation to you now?

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You have the podcast with, with through influence.com, Voices of Influence. Um, you do post on LinkedIn. Twitter, Instagram, it's a little more like- Yeah... just kind of off-the-cuff personal stuff.

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Um, yeah, what is content to you now, and is there any audience that, like, gives you the most value these days? Yeah, so, so you're right. C- for me, content right now is just, like, showing my life every now and then.

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Um, and for some reason my, my audience still like to keep up with it, um, which is fun. Uh, so yeah, I, I, I, it's a mixture of, like, showing off the port- what the portfolio's up to- Yeah...

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what, what the talent I've signed are doing. Uh, I think there's this weird thing where maybe my audience is like, "That weird YouTuber I used to watch now does all of these things and businesses, like, that I use."

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Yeah. "And how is he involved in Eleven Labs?" Or, "He signed my favorite creator. Like, how has that happened?" So I think it's almost just, like, confusion, and I love it.

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Um- [laughs] And, uh, yeah, my, I mean, where do I get the most value? Um, I think it's from clients who I have maybe signed, and then, like, th- they, they [sighs]

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or someone I'm speaking to, and then they go on to see a piece of content that I've done. Mm. And maybe it reminds them about us or makes them think, "Okay, we've gotta do more."

258
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And, and so it's because the, you know, the, the majority of the income again comes from B2B stuff. Yeah. It's a very small group of people I'm trying to impress who follow me, uh- Which is especially on LinkedIn.

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E- exactly, which, and LinkedIn, LinkedIn's great for, but I, I also find LinkedIn, like, I find it difficult 'cause I just find some of the content on there is super kind of cringe. Um- The bro tree, as they say.

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It, there's, it's really hard for me. Like, I feel like I need to say, "These are 10 things I learnt about podcasts" - [laughs]... and then, like, put it in something. I just can't do it, and I'm just, yeah, it's...

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Every now and then, I just don't understand LinkedIn, and I actually worked with them for a while. Huh. And they tried to explain it to me, and I really, I'm so bad at it, so don't come to me for LinkedIn advice.

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I, uh, I've, I mean, I'm constantly trying to crack it. I, I swore I would never make a LinkedIn account, and then in 2018 I cracked when I was, like, trying earnest to get better jobs.

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And now, now I post, and my posts can do all right.

264
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And more recently I've been thinking that, like, the way, the voice I try to bring to it is, yeah, there's a bit of that, like, earnest, that weirdly earnest LinkedIn tone. Yeah.

265
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But I also try to think about it as, and so we're, we're, I think we're both born in '94, so we're the same age.

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Uh, like back in like 2009 when I was posting on Facebook and I was a freshman in high school, like, I'm kind of trying to think of it in that sense, and, like, just post in earn it.

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Like, back when it would be like- Yeah... you know, it was like Francis Zier is blank, and you started all your, all your posts with is blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. Here's what I'm doing. Yeah, that's cool.

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So I think that's kind of, like, what I... Like, that kind of weird earnesty, which is weird, but I think that's- Yeah...

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what's been working for me there recently, and what I see working for other people, um, besides the, like, "Here's the lesson I learned, and the 10 things I learned." Yeah. I'm gonna check out your account. Yeah.

270
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It sounds like- It's okay... a good strategy. It's okay. Um, I just, uh-Yeah, I, I, I find these long posts with all these emojis and lines Yeah...

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they're getting very, very exhausting, and I find myself getting really a-angry and upset every time I [laughs] I come off it. Not because of the platform. It's the, it's the people on the platform- It's the people.

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Mm-hmm... are sometimes just like... I also, it's, it's when you, there's, if y- it's when you also sometimes know what's actually going on, and then you read someone's post, and you're just like [laughs]

273
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"What the fuck?" [laughs] Yeah. The artifice. This is, this is, ah, anyway. Okay, um- It's, it's good f- it's good fun. It is. Uh, one more thing.

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Um, this, this is always a kind of vague question because who knows what you're doing in the future, but, you know, six, seven years ago was when you sort of stopped being really an active YouTuber.

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Well into your entrepreneur, creator, career now, I would definitely call you an entrepreneur before I'd call you a creator. Um, let's say, like, five years from now, what do you think you're working on?

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Is it the same businesses and you're just, you're just deeper in them? You're deploying a multi-hundred million dollar creator fund for, like, Creator Ventures?

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What do, what do you think you're doing in about five years? Yeah. I think, yeah, I l- I love investing, and so we'll, we'll, we'll definitely be investing. I don't know if we wanna grow a massive fund. Mm-hmm.

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I think we'd rather stay small and lean, and, like, I think we can compete really well at, at pre-seed and seed. Obviously, things, things always evolve and change, but right now we're loving the space we're in.

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Um, and yeah, I mean, at, at Influencer, the goal is, is, is to funnel a, a billion dollars within the next eight years- Wow... uh, to creators. So hopefully we've already gotten there.

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Um, and, uh, yeah, I think also with talent management, I, I just wanna be doing that. I wanna be, you know, in talent management f- for the rest of my working career. Yeah.

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Um, because I think, a-again, it, it, they all support each other, so probably won't have started any more businesses and probably just doing very similar things. Um, hopefully, maybe have some kids. I don't know. Yeah.

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So- Living a, living a, just a good normal life with a lot of businesses. [laughs] Exactly. Maybe I'll have one less by then. One less. Maybe, maybe we'll see. Well, may- uh, yeah.

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May- but hopefully because you've sold it, not because it's failed. I'll have, I'll have exited successfully- Yeah... and not, not like I did on YouTube. Technically exited. Yeah. Exactly. Well, we'll end it right there.

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Caspar, thank you for coming on. And listener, we'll see you next week. Cheers. Awesome. Thank you so much for having me. Of course. [outro music]