WEBVTT

1
00:00:00.080 --> 00:00:09.680
I will be the first to admit that I have sometimes crossed the line with this newsletter. [laughs] I think that kind of put us on the map. You broke 1,000 about a year ago, July 2025.

2
00:00:09.780 --> 00:00:18.440
You broke 5K, and then a couple weeks ago, you finally broke 10K. People want to read local journalism 'cause they, they care about the things that happen around them.

3
00:00:18.560 --> 00:00:26.400
If you do that, and if you deliver consistently, you will, you will build an audience. For any listeners who might not have such training, what could you teach our listeners?

4
00:00:26.460 --> 00:00:37.600
How do you find scoops, and how do you find stories is, is the question that all of us are trying, like, perpetually to answer. Yeah. Well, you're... But you're doing it. Welcome back to the Creator Spotlight podcast.

5
00:00:37.740 --> 00:00:46.060
My name is Francis Zierer, and today we're speaking with Tomo Chen. Tomo is the creator of Morning Trojan, a newsletter serving the University of Southern California.

6
00:00:46.200 --> 00:00:55.900
His newsletter has grown to over 10,000 subscribers over the last few years of working on it, and most of that growth came after one change he made about a year ago. We'll get into that on the pod.

7
00:00:55.960 --> 00:01:06.320
So this is a conversation in the same vein as previous episodes on both local media entrepreneurs and creator model journalism. If you've liked those, you will certainly like this one. Enjoy.

8
00:01:08.380 --> 00:01:17.580
Tell me about the relationship between Morning Trojan and the other on-campus publications. How many other publications- [laughs]... are there, and what's the history? Yeah, yeah.

9
00:01:17.660 --> 00:01:28.280
I, I mean, we definitely have a bit of a, a friendly competition going on, and that's what's one of the things that's so great about, uh, the kind of student media scene at USC, which is we have, I mean, essentially three publications.

10
00:01:28.320 --> 00:01:37.300
I mean, there's one, which is The Daily Trojan, which is kind of the, the legacy student news outlet, if you will. It's been around since, like, 1912 or 1915- Oh, wow... or something like that.

11
00:01:37.840 --> 00:01:49.120
Um, there's a newer one called Annenberg Media, and so that's more affiliated with the school of journalism, and so kinda the way that works is, you know, if you write stories for classes, you go, and you publish it there.

12
00:01:49.200 --> 00:01:57.440
Um, you know, like, if you're, um, in the journalism program, you're kinda forced to go work a shift there. Uh, and then there's, there's us, and so there's, there's, there's kind of a...

13
00:01:57.460 --> 00:02:09.240
There's a, there's a healthy ecosystem going, and then obviously the, the LA Times and all the other kind of, um, LA news outlets will occasionally come and cover stuff about USC, given that it is such a kind of large part of, of Los Angeles.

14
00:02:09.380 --> 00:02:20.120
But, you know, day-to-day, uh, student media competition, there are three of us, and there is certainly, uh, some friendly, friendly competition to see who, who, who reaches the scoops first. Mm-hmm. Um, do they like...

15
00:02:20.860 --> 00:02:23.380
I mean, you're kind of disrupting a little bit, right?

16
00:02:23.480 --> 00:02:34.620
When we first spoke, you told me that you had worked for at least one of these, and that, you know, you kind of realized, oh, the people weren't really reading them at the rates you might expect or desire.

17
00:02:34.660 --> 00:02:47.780
And so when you made Morning Trojan, it was partially at least to kind of solve that distribution problem. Right. Right. You know, it, it... In some ways, we have almost different audiences in that- Hmm...

18
00:02:48.220 --> 00:02:50.860
um, the other student media outlets, I mean,

19
00:02:51.900 --> 00:03:00.280
uh, I'm, I, I'm not, like, too familiar with, with their, with their traffic and, and their, and their numbers, but, you know, at least when I was there, I mean, a lot of the, the traffic was coming from social.

20
00:03:00.440 --> 00:03:03.540
And, and it was... Yeah, basically, like, you have a large audience on Instagram.

21
00:03:03.580 --> 00:03:08.710
Like, I think The Daily Trojan has, like, 30,000 followers, and the other one has, like, 20, and so that, you know, that, that's a good number. Hmm.

22
00:03:08.720 --> 00:03:16.180
And they'll, they'll, they'll get a lot of impressions on these posts, and that's where, that's where most college students are by and large, so you know- Mm-hmm... that, that's great.

23
00:03:16.280 --> 00:03:34.859
Um, you know, for us, uh, you know, we're not on social media, and the reason, the reason why we, we did it as a newsletter was originally, I mean, the whole idea was to, um, kind of get people off social media, but, but, but to give them a news product that was still gonna be digestible and, and, you know, actually, like, pleasant, uh, to read.

24
00:03:34.890 --> 00:03:42.780
And so we, we kind of, um, in some ways almost control the distribution of the, the web content about USC.

25
00:03:43.420 --> 00:03:54.880
Um, you know, we have at this point something like 11,000 subscribers, which is a substantial chunk of, of, like, the [laughs] the people at USC who are gonna be interested in reading the news on a daily basis, so- I think you told me that there's- Um, you know...

26
00:03:54.940 --> 00:04:05.620
around 75,000 people total, right, at the, like, the school and people who work there. Right. There are... Yeah. Yeah, 70,000, you know, undergrads, grads, uh, professors, and, like, staff.

27
00:04:06.160 --> 00:04:17.459
Um, and then, you know, I mean, obviously that, that number could get expanded to, you could call it 100,000 or 150, or 200,000 if you wanna count parents and, and alumni or, or whatever. But that, that's kind of the...

28
00:04:17.500 --> 00:04:25.560
You know, when I think about the core audience that we're going after, you know, it's, like, these 70,000 people who are at USC every day, right? Um- Mm-hmm...

29
00:04:25.890 --> 00:04:35.820
and, you know, to, to some degree, you know, uh, uh, especially 'cause this newsletter's really just, just me writing it, you know, my, my feeling is, like, if I get beaten on a story, it's like, okay, fine.

30
00:04:35.860 --> 00:04:45.460
Like, uh, the, the, you know, um, you know, the, the... That's great for our competitors, and people can come to our newsletter, and they can, they can... Like, that's where they're gonna learn about it. Um- Mm-hmm...

31
00:04:45.469 --> 00:04:48.930
I, I almost liken it to a, um...

32
00:04:48.960 --> 00:04:57.130
Like, when you walk into a Costco, and you're choosing between, like, two brands of pretzels, and there's, like, the Kirkland Signature brand, and then there's, there's, like, the name brand.

33
00:04:57.160 --> 00:05:01.360
I'm like, Costco doesn't really care which one you get. Like, maybe they make more money if you get the Kirkland Signature one.

34
00:05:01.400 --> 00:05:05.740
There's some people that- But, like, you're there, you're there, and you're in, and you're in the Costco, right? Um, and, like- Yeah... that's kind of the value.

35
00:05:05.800 --> 00:05:16.690
That, that's the beauty of these, like, the aggregation and the, and the curation. Mm-hmm. Um, so all these other publications you listed are funded by the school, right? And you are not.

36
00:05:16.910 --> 00:05:25.400
I, I think you pay for this out of pocket. Uh, there's some sponsorship revenue, but this isn't really a, you know, money-printing, uh, machine for you. But that- No, not at all...

37
00:05:25.420 --> 00:05:36.240
probably allows you to do things and cover stories, y- right? You know, the, the, the tone of subject lines, all these little details, right? This probably allows you to do things that these other publications couldn't.

38
00:05:36.320 --> 00:05:46.210
Yeah, and, uh, I think that's true, but I mean, I, I will... I, I think it's worth prefacing that with the fact that I've worked at, you know, these other student media publications. Not to trash them.

39
00:05:46.210 --> 00:05:57.540
And there's a never... Yeah. Well, yeah. I mean, like, and, and there, there was never a sense on my part that, that the school or, or the faculty wouldn't, wouldn't let us write, you know, any particular thing.

40
00:05:57.580 --> 00:06:05.840
I mean, like, granted, I'm sure there are things I've done in my newsletter that, that would not have flown, I mean, [laughs] for, for, for many reasons at these other, um, publications. But, but yes.

41
00:06:05.880 --> 00:06:26.336
I mean, like, we-During the pro-Palestinian, um, encampments, um, you know, a few, few semesters ago, um, I felt like USC, like, like many other, uh, higher education institutions, uh, there's a lot of animosity between the kind of students and the, and the faculty, and the, and the school's administration.

42
00:06:26.396 --> 00:06:32.426
And, you know, people were penning, um, you know, thoughtful op-eds about this in The Daily Trojan and the LA Times.

43
00:06:32.996 --> 00:06:41.636
Um, and what we did was we held a Moron of the Year competition in which we let our readers vote on the Moron of the Year, and then we me- I FedExed a Moron of the Year trophy to the university president.

44
00:06:42.216 --> 00:06:47.796
Um, [laughs] which, you know, wa-was, was like, am I gonna look back on that- Annenberg Media might not have let you do that. Right.

45
00:06:48.096 --> 00:06:57.476
Yeah, and like, I mean, you know, that's one of those things where like, like I will be the first to admit that, that I have sometimes kind of crossed the line, uh, with this newsletter.

46
00:06:57.506 --> 00:07:03.776
Like, you know, like am I gonna look back, uh, on the Moron of the Year trophy in ten years and be like, [tsking] "I was kind of an asshole"? Like, probably.

47
00:07:03.896 --> 00:07:17.786
But, um, I, I, I, I do, I do feel like we, we have latitude to do things like that where, you know, I think it's easy to, to write off something like that as, as kind of, you know, like crass or, or- Mm...

48
00:07:17.816 --> 00:07:22.676
you know, just a college kid who's just, like, looking for attention or whatever, which, like, you know, might be true.

49
00:07:22.796 --> 00:07:30.836
But, um, I, I, I felt like, like, m- uh, FedExing a Moron of the Year trophy to the university president, like, really captured how people were feeling.

50
00:07:30.876 --> 00:07:39.776
Like, they were not feeling like reading thoughtful op-eds about these things. Like, they were, they were pissed- Yeah... and, like, [laughs] they voted. I mean, I, I didn't choose her.

51
00:07:39.816 --> 00:07:41.856
Like [laughs] it was the, it was the readers that chose her, right?

52
00:07:41.936 --> 00:07:53.236
And, and, um, you know, we, we are able to do things like that, and we're able to have some fun, um, with the content, and I think that is kind of a sort of integral part of the brand at this point.

53
00:07:53.266 --> 00:08:00.206
Although, you know, we've, we've, we've started to kind of scale that back a little bit and, and, and become, become a little more straight-laced just as the- Mm...

54
00:08:00.396 --> 00:08:09.426
the audience grows larger and, and we do more and more original content. Like, I think there's a feeling of, okay, like we do need people to take us seriously- Distinct styles... because, like, we do need to raise...

55
00:08:09.636 --> 00:08:21.075
Yeah. Yeah, exactly. Like, uh- Okay. Well, d- who, uh... how many people, if you're willing to share, you don't have to if you don't want to, how many people voted, for example, in that Moron of the Year, uh, situation?

56
00:08:21.126 --> 00:08:32.476
We're-- We were, we were pretty small back then. I- it must have been, it was, like, 400 or 500. I, I actually turned it into, like, a marketing thing. It was like- Mm... if you wanted to vote- You have to subscribe...

57
00:08:32.516 --> 00:08:41.056
you had, you had to subscribe. Like, or like, like if you, if you-- when you filled out, like, the Google Form, it made you give you your, give me your email address, and then I signed up the email address.

58
00:08:41.496 --> 00:08:51.256
Um, so you know, it was, it was, it was a, it was a audience, uh, [laughs] it was a marketing thing as much as it was a, as a, yeah, editorial or, or whatever kind of thing.

59
00:08:51.816 --> 00:08:56.686
Um, but yeah, I mean, that, that, that was back when the audience was still, was still relatively small. Mm-hmm.

60
00:08:57.156 --> 00:09:06.576
Um, okay, so you did tell me that it really started growing once you started doing scoops, doing more original reporting, not just the aggregation product. But there's kind of these two distinct products.

61
00:09:06.636 --> 00:09:17.046
There's the daily, week-daily, I believe, email, um, which I'll, I'll describe the format 'cause it's very simple and very clean. It's very completable, right? The, the intro says, "Good morning.

62
00:09:17.176 --> 00:09:23.516
It's day of the week, and these are the five USC, Los Angeles, and California stories that you need to know for today."

63
00:09:23.716 --> 00:09:38.396
And then there's five stories, typically one from you, um, that's on the, on the Morning Trojan website, and then various others from on-campus publications in LA and California publications, and each one just gets about 50 words of description, and that's it.

64
00:09:38.756 --> 00:09:48.136
Um, and for I think the first couple years it was really just that, and you weren't really doing the original reporting, the scoops, 'cause you told me that when you started doing that was when you grew, right?

65
00:09:48.156 --> 00:09:55.156
So two years of aggregation, and then about a year ago, you started doing more original reporting. [clicks tongue] Yeah, that's right. That's right.

66
00:09:55.186 --> 00:10:06.736
And, I mean, as, as anybody who, who runs a newsletter knows, I mean, like [laughs] it's, it's very hard to get organic growth, um, kind of on newsletter platforms. Um,

67
00:10:07.916 --> 00:10:23.256
and I mean, yeah, a, a problem that we had when we were doing the aggregation was at the time, I mean, like, our, really our only value add was, okay, one, like, the curation, but also, you know, okay, like we'd put in a little snark, and maybe the, the framing was kinda fun, and like, you know, the- there were, there was an audience of people who'd like it.

68
00:10:23.415 --> 00:10:36.096
But the problem is, uh, [laughs] like it's, it's very hard to build a large audience based off that, especially when your target, you know, your, your, your market is really only 70,000 people, which is, which is not huge, right?

69
00:10:36.356 --> 00:10:46.956
Yeah. Um, and so yeah, we, we kind of plateaued at the kinda right around the 1,000 mark, which is like, okay, like, you know, it's a fun project at that point, but, you know, like, does it really matter? Um- Yeah...

70
00:10:47.076 --> 00:11:00.196
um, and then yeah, I mean, a- a- about a year ago, I think, we realized, okay, there, there is a need for this kind of, um, day-to-day insider reporting about this university, which is basically like a small city, right?

71
00:11:00.456 --> 00:11:13.156
[laughs] Um, and, and there's, there's this need for, for this kind of, um, in-depth daily coverage about the university that, that the LA Times doesn't necessarily do just 'cause they write for a general audience, right?

72
00:11:13.256 --> 00:11:22.296
Um, and so we have been able to kind of fill that niche, um, and w- you know, we've, we've, we've been, we've been rewarded in terms of the, the subscriber count. Yeah.

73
00:11:22.336 --> 00:11:30.846
So you've shared publicly the numbers, the subscriber numbers. So I, it, I was looking at the graph, and I could tell that, yeah, you broke 1,000 about a year ago, as you said. Yeah.

74
00:11:30.876 --> 00:11:42.536
And then by this July, uh, July 2025, you broke 5K, and then a couple weeks ago, as we record, at the end of October, you finally broke 10K. So the growth, like, has...

75
00:11:42.616 --> 00:11:51.066
I mean, yeah, I guess, I guess it's sped up a little bit, but m- more- Yeah... so been fairly steady and just on a much increased curve since you started doing that. Yeah.

76
00:11:51.076 --> 00:12:06.616
Have there been any particular stories that, like, drove the most, or has it really just been like, oh, you shared this one, people signed up for that, and, oh, maybe now they're sharing, forwarding the email to, to, to friends, and, and now people are having to click, you know, to sign up once they click to the web version, and it's subscriber-gated, whatever.

77
00:12:07.026 --> 00:12:07.216
Um, yeah.

78
00:12:07.256 --> 00:12:18.372
I guess question is, have, have there, has there been, have there been any particular stories that really drove it, or is it just steady?I mean, the, the, the biggest thing for us at USC right now is we're going through a pretty sizable round of layoffs.

79
00:12:18.412 --> 00:12:27.232
It's been almost 1,000 at this point, and, you know, this is 'cause the university has racked up, um, a pretty sizable operating deficit over the last, you know, five or six years.

80
00:12:27.792 --> 00:12:42.252
Um, so when we started breaking news about that, um, that sort of instantly, um, expanded our, our potential audience in that, um, a lot of our readership before that was, you know, it was, it was largely students, um, and, and largely, largely undergraduates.

81
00:12:42.372 --> 00:12:52.382
But once we started the coverage of, uh, the layoffs, I mean, like, obviously that is something, like, that will, like, very quickly go viral among, among, you know, the people who are potentially subject to these layoffs.

82
00:12:52.612 --> 00:13:05.742
Um, and I think once we started doing that, I think that kind of put us on the map for the, that, you know, like 20,000, 30,000, uh, you know, lar- large group of people who, who are, are the people who work at the university.

83
00:13:06.332 --> 00:13:16.132
Um, so I think for us that has been one of the, the kind of, um, single biggest areas of, of, of coverage that have expe- that, that have, that have expanded the subscriber count.

84
00:13:16.372 --> 00:13:41.192
But, you know, as, as, as, as I think I had mentioned before, like, uh, the news about the, the fires and the, and the hit-and-run car crashes and the, you know, kind of like the, the, the daily local news reporting, the, the kind of like traditional crime reporting, I mean, that, that gets at this point as many subscriptions as, uh, you know, the, the scoops that we get with, with insider sources and, and, you know, the business offices of, of USC.

85
00:13:41.832 --> 00:13:44.382
Um, and in some ways it's, it's, it's cool to see that.

86
00:13:44.412 --> 00:13:53.332
Like, people, people want to read local journalism 'cause they, they care about the things that happen around them, and if you do that, and if you deliver consistently, you will, you will build an audience.

87
00:13:53.932 --> 00:13:59.492
If you have a website, you know how hard it can be to keep ads relevant to every visitor. That's where Google AdSense comes in.

88
00:13:59.532 --> 00:14:05.042
It connects your site to one of the largest ad networks in the world, so advertisers actually compete to reach your audience.

89
00:14:05.592 --> 00:14:12.272
Even if your content serves a specific niche, AdSense ensures your visitors see ads that matter to them wherever they are.

90
00:14:12.712 --> 00:14:29.612
Publishers like wikiHow trust AdSense because the ads are high quality, the setup is simple, and the revenue is consistent. Visit google/earnwithadsense to learn more. That's G-O-O.G-L-E/earnwithadsense.

91
00:14:30.432 --> 00:14:37.972
So you are studying journalism. You are also a professional journalist outside of Morning Trojan. You work for the San Francisco Standard.

92
00:14:38.512 --> 00:14:53.232
Uh, for any listeners who might not have such training but, you know, aspire to maybe they're-- whether they're a, a writer or a video creator, whatever, whatever kind of creator they are, and they aspire to have better journalistic practices in their work, right?

93
00:14:53.512 --> 00:15:04.232
How does one go about getting scoops, finding sources, like, you know, finding and then packaging these, this information for, for their audience, right? Like, just some, some basic journalism principles.

94
00:15:04.452 --> 00:15:09.312
What, what, what can you teach our listeners? Yeah. [laughs] Well, that's, that's kind of a big question.

95
00:15:09.372 --> 00:15:19.972
I mean, the, the, the how do you find scoops and how do you find stories is, is the question that all of us are trying, like, perpetually to answer. Um- Yeah. Well, you're, but you're doing it. [laughs] Yeah, and I...

96
00:15:20.072 --> 00:15:37.452
And yeah, I mean, gosh, I mean, um, uh, uh, I mean, in terms of getting scoops and owning a beat, I mean, I think the biggest thing for us has just been being consistent, and the, the kind of the beauty of our product is that, you know, w- we, as mentioned before, we have these kind of two distinct products, right?

97
00:15:37.672 --> 00:15:43.092
One is the, the daily email aggregation, and the other is these original stories that live on our website.

98
00:15:43.552 --> 00:15:53.492
And, you know, essentially these original stories bring in probably 90, 95% of the, of the subscribers, but then the daily aggregation is what keeps them around and keeps them engaged.

99
00:15:53.992 --> 00:16:08.172
Um, and, uh, the, [laughs] you know, it's, it's, it's great in terms of building an audience, but also, uh, we have, uh, sources who, who, you know, read the newsletter every morning, and then, uh, they're more likely to reach out and give us tips, right?

100
00:16:08.192 --> 00:16:18.692
And, and it's because, uh, it is... We, we are, we are consistent, and we have established ourselves as this home for, you know, this kind of scoopy insider reporting about the university.

101
00:16:18.732 --> 00:16:27.912
We've, we've spent, um, at this point three years building this brand. Um, so I think on my end, I mean, a lot of this has been about, um, just consistency.

102
00:16:29.541 --> 00:16:35.782
Um, you know, in terms of journalism training, I mean, that's a, that's a, that's a more, that's a more difficult question to answer. I mean, like [laughs] the business side is so much there.

103
00:16:35.792 --> 00:16:41.772
Well, if I, I'll butt in for a second. I mean, I would, I would agree with you, like, on, on just based in, like, with my work with Creator Spotlight, right?

104
00:16:41.812 --> 00:16:47.852
When I started, um, you know, we had quite a few subscribers because I already... I took it over from, from Beehiiv, right?

105
00:16:48.032 --> 00:16:55.132
But by, you know, a few months in, definitely a year in, certainly now, people are now pitching me guests all the time, right?

106
00:16:55.162 --> 00:17:02.692
And there's, like, people who might send me feedback and say, "Oh, I, I w- I wish you would write about this kind of thing," or, "I wish you would interview some kind of creator from this kind of niche," right?

107
00:17:02.712 --> 00:17:04.872
And b- which is just, I mean, proving out what you're saying.

108
00:17:04.912 --> 00:17:16.672
If, if you do the thing consistently and, like, deliver on, you know, your premise over time, then people will accrue in the audience who then give you that... It's, it's really quite simple, [laughs] I, I guess. Yeah.

109
00:17:16.732 --> 00:17:24.832
Yeah. Yeah. Well, you know, you know, [laughs] so, you know, it, it's, it sounds quite simple, and, you know, uh, uh, when you, when you r-r-reflect back on the work you've done, it, it sounds simple.

110
00:17:24.892 --> 00:17:29.922
But certainly, you know, when you're, you're in the middle, and, you know, I, you know, I think, you know, I'm, I'm certainly still in the middle of it.

111
00:17:29.922 --> 00:17:52.952
I mean, it's, it's, it's a lot, it's a lot of work, and, you know, you wake up in the morning, and you've got this damn newsletter that you've committed to writing five days a week, and you wake up, and maybe you went out the night before, and, like, maybe you, you didn't prep the newsletter, and you're up, and it's 6:30, and you've got, like, 90 minutes to go and push out this email newsletter, and, like, I don't know, like, candidly, like, maybe you're a little hungover, and it's like, dang, like, [laughs] this kinda sucks.

112
00:17:53.212 --> 00:18:02.242
Uh. [laughs] Well, okay, but, but I mean, the, the format is so simple, right? Yeah. The format is so, so simple. Like, the entire newsletter is, I don't know, 250 to 300 words. Yeah. Yeah.

113
00:18:02.312 --> 00:18:11.212
Um, has it ever really changed, or did you just kind of set it and, and just repeat it on and on and on? It's the, the, the fundamental structure of the newsletter has always been the same.

114
00:18:11.772 --> 00:18:17.332
Um, it, it's always been a small number of these kind of short, uh, summaries for you to read.

115
00:18:17.352 --> 00:18:27.416
And, and, and the goal has always beenTo keep these, the summaries of these stories at a length where, okay, you could read the summary in the newsletter, um, and, like, you can understand what the story is from that.

116
00:18:27.576 --> 00:18:34.616
But if you wanna read more, you can, you can click into the story. And it's meant to kind of, um, uh, kind of walk that kind of thin line.

117
00:18:34.656 --> 00:18:44.606
I, I think sometimes newsletters, um, lean too heavily into the, like, we're gonna m-make this... Like, we, we want you to stick around in the newsletter, and so here's, like, 1,200 words.

118
00:18:44.636 --> 00:18:49.036
I'm like, I don't wanna read 1,200 words- Yeah... in your newsletter in the morning. Like, I, I wanna be able to pick and choose what I read.

119
00:18:49.056 --> 00:18:59.696
And so, you know, this, this product is informed by my own sensibilities as a, a-as a news consumer. Um, but, but I mean to, to answer your original question, I mean, yes, like the, the, the product has changed.

120
00:18:59.756 --> 00:19:10.536
Um, in, in terms of the length, I mean, there, there's a period of time where, um, it was probably, I don't know, 20... The word count was probably 25%, like, higher than, than what it was now.

121
00:19:10.596 --> 00:19:19.576
And, you know, it, it, it got to a point where it was, it was, it was getting a little bit long. Um, I was like, okay, I think, I think we could scale this back, and also, like, I honestly just don't wanna write as much.

122
00:19:19.856 --> 00:19:25.626
Um, [laughs] so... But I mean, of course, like, the, it's, it's actually harder in many ways to, to, to write less, uh- Mm-hmm...

123
00:19:25.626 --> 00:19:34.636
'cause it, like, requires you to, to, like, synthesize these, these, these ideas more and, like, kind of engage more, more, more critically with, [laughs] with, like, the information you're, you're writing about.

124
00:19:34.656 --> 00:19:39.916
And so, um, uh, you know, that, that, that can be difficult. Um, but no, um, you know, we've...

125
00:19:39.976 --> 00:19:51.816
I think we've, uh, in the last 12 months it really settled on a kinda format, and I think, um, the beauty of doing this for many years in a row is that you kind of get used to doing it, and you can kinda start writing it faster.

126
00:19:51.956 --> 00:19:57.156
And, you know, I used to, like, stare at the computer screen and, like, bang my head on the keyboard 'cause I couldn't figure out what to write.

127
00:19:57.196 --> 00:20:03.286
And now, you know, I, I do it in bed, and I crank it out, and, like, usually it's fine. And [laughs] you know- Yeah... like usually there aren't deadlines.

128
00:20:03.296 --> 00:20:13.976
You said, you said in another interview that you would typically spend 90 minutes prepping the newsletter the night before, and then maybe an hour in the morning, so about two and a half hours per issue.

129
00:20:14.356 --> 00:20:24.076
Um, regardless of, like, the exact amount of time you're spending on it, um, there's five stories, right? So how many stories are you typically filtering through to make it five?

130
00:20:24.436 --> 00:20:36.516
Gosh, I mean, I guess it depends what you mean by filtering through. I mean, I'm probably skimming, uh, uh, 50, 60, 70 headlines, um, uh, when looking for stories on a given newsletter.

131
00:20:36.536 --> 00:20:48.756
But it also, it also can depend, um, you know, if there are four, um, uh, really big stories about USC, like my, my, my work week for that morning- Some days you, you already know exactly what you're doing. Right. Right.

132
00:20:48.856 --> 00:20:50.716
Yeah. Yeah, and like, you know, I've, like, already seen it or whatever.

133
00:20:50.736 --> 00:21:00.756
But then, you know, some days there's, like, literally no story about USC that's, like, worth reading, and it's like, crap, like, what am I gonna put in this newsletter today?

134
00:21:01.276 --> 00:21:18.316
Um, and then suddenly [laughs] you're, like, you're hunting through, I mean, not only news headlines, but you're, like, trying to find, like, a fun photo album to link to, like, from Instagram accounts, or, like, you're surfing Reddit and, like, trying, like, dear God, to find something that, like, you could, you could link to in the, in the newsletter.

135
00:21:18.376 --> 00:21:26.956
So you're saying some days it's, like, five hours of searching. [laughs] Oh, yeah. Like, it can, it can, it can, it can really, it can really depend. But, but no, I mean, I, I, I, I try to do...

136
00:21:26.996 --> 00:21:37.816
I, I do probably a half hour, 45 minutes of prep the night before, and then I wake up at, like, 6:30, 6:45, and I bang out the thing. And I have a, I have a proofreader, uh, named Anna, and, you know, my...

137
00:21:37.996 --> 00:21:47.656
I'm, I'm supposed to send her the newsletter by 7:30, so she has a half hour to proofread it. Usually it's more like 7:45 to 7:50 is when- Mm... the newsletter is done and, and, and goes to her.

138
00:21:47.776 --> 00:21:55.576
Um, uh, but yeah, you know, we have a, we have a system, and we worked it out. And, um, you know, I think it get, it gets... It, it only gets more and more efficient as we, as we keep doing this.

139
00:21:55.596 --> 00:22:03.476
And she still proofreads every issue, the- That's right... as, as to every... Oh, wow. Okay. Nice. Yeah. Yep. Um, do you sometimes have, uh, other people stand in for you, right?

140
00:22:03.576 --> 00:22:11.156
I think you've mentioned that you have, like, two people who will sometimes... Maybe, maybe they're writing articles or they're writing the newsletter. Right. Right.

141
00:22:11.356 --> 00:22:24.916
So, so last year when I was driving between San Francisco and Los Angeles every week to, [laughs] you know, work, work up there for the San Francisco Standard and attend school, I, I, I had, um, a g- a guy named Matthew who would write the newsletter.

142
00:22:24.986 --> 00:22:34.446
And, and, you know, like, throughout the last three years, we, we've had, um, you know, a number of people who, who have maybe kind of, uh, been on co-bylines- Mm-hmm...

143
00:22:34.446 --> 00:22:40.376
um, either for the, the daily aggregation or maybe, uh, you know, k-kind of a one-off story that, that we publish on our website.

144
00:22:40.405 --> 00:22:45.376
And, you know, there's, there's, there's, there's been, like, a, there's, you know, I'd say, like, every once in a while somebody will, will contribute.

145
00:22:45.956 --> 00:22:51.236
Um, but I mean, right now our, our, our, the, the core team has, has really always been me and, um, me and Anna.

146
00:22:51.956 --> 00:23:06.576
One, I think, problem with a newsletter serving college students, I don't know if this is the case at USC, but for me in my college, um, you know, I get my.edu email address, and then I think it was about a year after we graduate, they, they delete it.

147
00:23:06.616 --> 00:23:07.976
You know- Yeah... you no longer have access to it.

148
00:23:08.096 --> 00:23:18.326
And I've talked to, um, I think it was when I had Casey Lewis on almost two years ago, and she had done a, I forget the name of it, but, uh, she had done a product that was serving college-aged women.

149
00:23:18.536 --> 00:23:30.246
And, uh, they experienced this problem where, you know, there was just this leak in their acquisition, in their audience, where every year around, you know, May, June- Right. Right...

150
00:23:30.246 --> 00:23:38.576
uh, a large portion of their audience would get deleted. Uh, is that something that you deal with? So, you know, I, I don't have great numbers about it. I just, I just have...

151
00:23:39.176 --> 00:23:49.496
You know, I've, I've, I've, I've looked into it some, but I, I, again, I don't have a, like, firm specific- But yeah. But, but from what I've, I've kind of observed, uh, myself, it's actually not a huge problem for us.

152
00:23:49.556 --> 00:23:53.116
I think part of that is we've only recently gotten, uh, kind of very large.

153
00:23:53.156 --> 00:24:02.696
So I, I don't, I don't have, [laughs] you know, like, uh, uh, many, uh, summers of, of seniors graduating and their email addresses to, to, to kind of, like, go off of.

154
00:24:02.836 --> 00:24:09.196
But I mean, anecdotally a, a, a good number of seniors will tend to subscribe with their personal email addresses.

155
00:24:09.306 --> 00:24:17.235
Um, you know, always at the end of the semester we send out a kinda end of semester email and say, "Hey, you know, if you wanna unsubscribe, you know, no, no, no hard feelings.

156
00:24:17.276 --> 00:24:23.576
You know, you can, you can do it at the bottom of this email. But if you wanna, like, come and give us your personal email, um, you know, you're welcome to do that."

157
00:24:23.946 --> 00:24:35.784
Um, you know, uh, part of it for us now was that actually a large portion of our audienceProbably 50%, maybe even 60, 70 is, is employees, right? And so these are people who are- That's a large percentage...

158
00:24:35.824 --> 00:24:40.764
uh, you know, in th- yeah, yeah. And, and so these are people who are, in theory, sticking around here more.

159
00:24:40.904 --> 00:24:49.354
Um, so I, I, I think we are, in some ways, kind of protected from that, that, that, you know, once, once yearly churn of, of students.

160
00:24:50.234 --> 00:25:00.884
Um, but, I mean, long way of saying o- o- on my end, I haven't noticed a significant drop-off in, in subscribers or, you know, tons of emails suddenly, um, you know, bouncing, um- Mm-hmm... come, come May or June. Yeah.

161
00:25:01.704 --> 00:25:09.014
Good. Um, okay. So when you were a junior in high school, you started the Midpeninsula Post, another independent news outlet- [laughs] Yes...

162
00:25:09.024 --> 00:25:19.504
kind of like Morning Trojan, a little different, um, that I believe by the time you stopped working on it, it still exists. We'll get into that. It had 3,000 monthly readers is what you wrote on your LinkedIn at least.

163
00:25:19.684 --> 00:25:24.184
Um, why did you start that? Didn't, couldn't you just join a high school newspaper? Did you have to- [laughs]... start something?

164
00:25:24.424 --> 00:25:37.684
[laughs] Well, so I, I, I was on the high school newspaper, and that's, that's where I, you know, first kinda got excited about journalism. Um, you know, there was a moment where we realized...

165
00:25:38.664 --> 00:25:44.914
Okay, I'm, okay, like, I mean, the context to this was that I was a high schooler who was taking all this too seriously, so, you know, [laughs] like- Well, obviously, yes [laughs]...

166
00:25:44.924 --> 00:25:50.514
let's, let's, let's just put that out there first. But yeah. But that's why it's interesting. That's why it's interesting, yeah. You know, sitting there... Right. Right. Yeah, yeah. [laughs] Okay.

167
00:25:50.544 --> 00:25:55.724
So, you know, we are on the high school newspaper. They're like, you know, 40 people. Most people are there to, you know, have fun or make friends or whatever.

168
00:25:55.824 --> 00:26:07.194
Um, and then I realized, okay, like, there are, like, maybe two of us who are, like, writing, um, all, all the stories here. And, um, so the idea was, okay, how about we, we get the kind of, like,

169
00:26:08.364 --> 00:26:16.954
most engaged, uh, students at all the local high schools together in one place, um, and run this newsletter? But, and the idea is that- Mm-hmm...

170
00:26:16.964 --> 00:26:28.724
we will offer this, like, real, um, kind of, uh, you know, uh, i- in some ways maybe, maybe more, more serious, uh, coverage of, of, of the local school boards and, and, and, you know, sometimes the, the local city councils.

171
00:26:29.104 --> 00:26:38.524
But we're gonna do it in a way that, that, like, targets high schoolers, and we're gonna be kind of, um, or at least try to be kinda, kinda digitally savvy and, and, and, and native to social media.

172
00:26:38.803 --> 00:26:44.124
Um, and so that, that was the idea behind that. It was, uh, it was, you know, there was kind of this like,

173
00:26:45.464 --> 00:26:56.924
um, you know, as I said before, kinda altruistic, like, you know, we want young Americans to read the news, which, you know, I think is a, I think is a, is a n- noble goal.

174
00:26:57.164 --> 00:27:05.223
Um, I, I think it's not one that necessarily drives me now, but, but, but that was, that was the thinking at the time. And it was a fun- Yeah... it was a fun project, and we learned a lot and, you know. Yeah.

175
00:27:05.244 --> 00:27:11.674
[laughs] Well, it's, so it's still going, right, which is really interesting to me b- especially because it's not, um, tied to any one school.

176
00:27:11.784 --> 00:27:21.684
And so clearly that introduces some problems of like, oh, it's not like maybe, you know, the journalism teacher at this one school, it, like, falls to them to, to run this. I don't know. You, you tell me.

177
00:27:22.064 --> 00:27:32.504
But, um, it's still going, which is the main thing that is really interesting to me. So how did this thing that you started, um, how did you hand it off? And like, how, are you involved at all still?

178
00:27:33.484 --> 00:27:36.444
Um, I, I am actually not involved. I, I, um,

179
00:27:37.564 --> 00:27:46.684
at this point, I don't, I don't think I know any, any of the people who are there 'cause, I mean, like, my, my brother was a freshman when I was a senior in high school, and now he's in college.

180
00:27:46.704 --> 00:27:54.524
And so, so I don't, I don't know anybody in the, like [laughs] who's, who's, who's in the, the, like, four years of high school. I've never, you know, overlapped with them. Yeah.

181
00:27:54.544 --> 00:27:59.444
You know, like, like, I think, like, last year- Which is awesome... there were a few of them who were on the thing. Yeah. Yeah, no, it's just great.

182
00:27:59.484 --> 00:28:08.444
And, and, and, you know, I mean, like, last year, like, I think there were some of them on the staff who, like, I had run, like, track and cross country with back, back in high school, so, so I kinda knew them, and, you know, maybe we talk about it.

183
00:28:08.484 --> 00:28:16.224
But, but no, now I, I, I don't, I don't know them. Um, but, you know, yeah, they're, they're, they're, they'll st- they're still going. They're, they're keeping it up. Um, when I...

184
00:28:16.494 --> 00:28:26.724
I, I had co-founded the thing with, with, with a guy, Gil, that you had mentioned. Mm-hmm. And Gil's, Gil's great. Gil was a... He's a... I, I guess he's a, he's a junior at, at, at U Chicago now, and, um- Mm...

185
00:28:26.764 --> 00:28:39.213
Gil, Gil works at, I mean, this is a tangent, but, but he, he works, um, he worked for Sam Liccardo, who was the, um, uh, uh, former mayor of San Jose who won a, uh, congressional seat in, in the Bay Area. Mm-hmm.

186
00:28:39.213 --> 00:28:43.944
And he was, he was one of his, um, campaign staffers. And, you know, Gil's, Gil's, Gil's, like, really great, and, and it's...

187
00:28:44.314 --> 00:28:53.864
G- Gil's a young, Gil's a year younger than me, so, so when I graduated, it was, like, kind of the obvious thing to do w- was, was to pass this off to him. Um- Yeah...

188
00:28:53.894 --> 00:29:04.204
and, and yeah, they're still going, but, but, you know, m- my feeling with, with this Morning Trojan project is that I will be shutting it down, uh, when I, when I graduate school. Um- That was my next question. Yeah.

189
00:29:04.644 --> 00:29:13.264
There's no... Yeah, you're not, like, is that something that you have wanted to do, and you just decided like, "Ah, it's not gonna happen," or you've just decided like, "Nope, nope, that was it. Had fun"?

190
00:29:14.324 --> 00:29:28.644
You know, I, I think, I think for a while I, I, I, I did want that to happen when I was looking for somebody to pass it off to because, of course, you know, when you do these projects, you want to build something that lasts and, you know, has longevity.

191
00:29:29.304 --> 00:29:43.124
Um, you know, it, it, it became clear that it was, it was gonna be hard to set something up that was going to be able to kinda keep operating the, the, the way that I want it to.

192
00:29:43.784 --> 00:30:00.224
Um, and you know, when it's just you churning out, like, a daily newsletter and doing all this reporting, and then, like, anything extra on top of that is just such a hassle, like finding advertisers or like, like, I mean, like, just doing any of these extra things is like, you know, like, there's, there's a lot going on already.

193
00:30:00.244 --> 00:30:13.284
And, um, you know, I, I, I think, I think I, I reached a point where I was like, okay, I'm, I'm, I'm happy just making this a thing that's, you know, I, I, you, you, you let a, you let a good thing go out when it's still good, and, um- Mm-hmm...

194
00:30:13.304 --> 00:30:19.474
you know, it might disappoint some people. I'm sure many other peoples will be stoked, many other people will be stoked about that. But, but

195
00:30:20.424 --> 00:30:29.184
I've, I, I've, I've definitely gotten a few, um, there've been a few people who have, who have, uh, made the case for me to keep, to keep writing the newsletter- Yeah... to, to pass it off to somebody.

196
00:30:29.224 --> 00:30:37.064
And, um, you know, I, I, I understand, uh, you know, the argument behind that. But I think for me, uh, it, it makes sense to kind of, to, to close this thing down after I graduate school.

197
00:30:37.144 --> 00:30:46.454
Would you ever pass it off to some so- some sort of, like, more formal school stewardship where like, oh, this is now under the purview- Mm... of, like, of, I don't know- [laughs]...

198
00:30:46.464 --> 00:30:56.012
the, the whatever department, like-... subsection of the department owns it, and like, you know, every- Right. [laughs]... few years they, or every year it's, like, a different thing, and a different student runs it.

199
00:30:56.072 --> 00:31:05.912
I don't know. W- would that defeat the purpose if the school owned it? [laughs] Well, I think having the school own it would be, would be, would be kind of antithetical to, to the, to the brand that- Yes...

200
00:31:05.932 --> 00:31:14.591
that we've built. But no, I mean, I mean, I, I, I mean, like, yeah, I mean, I, I- This puckish gadfly of a newsletter. [laughs] Right. Right. Yeah, yeah, owned by, uh,

201
00:31:15.572 --> 00:31:21.952
U- USC owning the IP to the, the Moron of the Year, uh, trophy and everything. [laughs] Um, uh, that would be, that would be funny.

202
00:31:22.652 --> 00:31:41.572
Um, uh, uh, no, you know, I, I, i- if, if there were, if there were an existing news outlet that was interested in acquiring, um, you know, the, the, the e-list or, or, or, or the brand or some other kind of, you know, some of the other IP, you know, I, I, I would be interested in, in, in, in talking certainly.

203
00:31:42.212 --> 00:31:42.612
Um,

204
00:31:43.972 --> 00:32:09.832
y- y- you know, I, I, I think, I think the, the one world in which, uh, the newsletter keeps going is maybe if there's some institution, uh, you know, s- some, some news outlet out there that, that decides that they think this audience is valuable, and maybe this, the, the brand means something, and they continue to run it, and I feel that this institution is one that can, can, can, you know, kind of, [inhales] uh, I mean, not to sound like an asshole, but, but, but to, to be, be, to be, to be kind of worthy of, of, you know- Yeah...

205
00:32:09.932 --> 00:32:17.792
the, the, the brand. You know, like I, I, I'd feel, I'd feel good about that. But, but no, I, I, I, I, I'm, I'm, I'm at peace with the idea of, of shutting it down, and it does not,

206
00:32:18.872 --> 00:32:30.132
doesn't, doesn't break my heart to do so. Um, yeah. [laughs] No, that's healthy. Um, okay. Well, so you'll have shut this down by, you know, by the end of this coming summer, you will have graduated college.

207
00:32:30.272 --> 00:32:37.752
You will have shut this down. You will, you know, presumably still be working at The San Francisco Standard, where you've been working now for, I think, about a year and a half or two years.

208
00:32:37.872 --> 00:32:46.592
Um, judging by your general nature and everything I know about you, you probably won't just be working on your duties at The Standard.

209
00:32:46.652 --> 00:32:51.622
Like, it- [laughs] You seem to be somebody who likes to be doing multiple things at once. Is there, like, a thing that comes after this?

210
00:32:51.672 --> 00:32:56.532
Like, after you're no longer a student, after you shut down Morning Trojan, is there, like, a new newsletter?

211
00:32:56.652 --> 00:33:06.332
Are you, like, you know, suddenly doing, like, short form video work or, like, hosting a podcast for The Standard? [laughs] What's like... You clearly have, like, a desire to be doing too much at once.

212
00:33:06.432 --> 00:33:16.012
Like, what, what's, what's in the pipeline- Well-... after, after this? Okay. Like, the most, the most important thing to know about me is that I do not plan these things ahead. Uh, I- [laughs] Okay.

213
00:33:16.652 --> 00:33:29.372
That's- Historically, I, I come up with an idea, and, uh, like, in, you know, 24 hours, I'm, I'm, like, I've decided to, to do it. And, um, yeah, I, I, I don't know. Um, I, you know, we'll, we'll, we'll have to see.

214
00:33:29.432 --> 00:33:39.812
I don't, I don't, uh, I don't, I don't have anything, uh, i- in the works right now. But, uh, you know, [laughs] I, you know, I, I, I wouldn't be shocked if there's, uh, some other project I do.

215
00:33:39.832 --> 00:33:44.352
But, but I mean, th- there is... You know, I, I, I am in a place where I feel like, um,

216
00:33:45.612 --> 00:33:58.452
you know, I've, I've, I've had some fun, uh, during my time in school, uh, kinda doing these projects, but, but I, I do want to become the best journalist I can possibly be. And- Mm-hmm...

217
00:33:58.492 --> 00:34:05.442
I think, like, right now that means just, like, focusing on the, on the reporting and, and, and on the journalism. Yeah.

218
00:34:05.442 --> 00:34:15.832
And, and, you know, I am lucky to be in a place in, in The Standard that, that, that has the resources and, uh, is, is, you know, wants to be this, this home for ambitious journalism.

219
00:34:15.852 --> 00:34:20.192
And I have a mandate, you know, on my team to tackle these, these, these big stories.

220
00:34:20.252 --> 00:34:33.432
And, you know, that's, that's something that I, I, you know, I, I have, I have some, some decent clips, but, but I'm nowhere, you know, I'm, [laughs] I'm, I'm nowhere near, uh, as, as, as seasoned as, you know, many people ev- you know, certainly on our, on our staff, but, but, you know- Yeah...

221
00:34:33.442 --> 00:34:41.912
um, you know, elsewhere at, at other, you know, publications. And, and I think I want to kind of focus on that. And, you know, and then, you know, you know, maybe, maybe I, I, um, you know,

222
00:34:42.952 --> 00:34:51.972
do work that I am happy with, and I, and I decide there's, there's some other project that I think might be fun or, you know, I, I could totally see that happening. But, but I, I, I want to kind of- Mm-hmm...

223
00:34:51.982 --> 00:34:57.692
uh, dig in and, and, you know, work on the, the fundamentals and the, and the, and the journalism and the, you know, the reporting of it all.

224
00:34:58.592 --> 00:35:04.192
If you have a website, you know how hard it can be to keep ads relevant to every visitor. That's where Google AdSense comes in.

225
00:35:04.232 --> 00:35:10.412
It connects your site to one of the largest ad networks in the world, so advertisers actually compete to reach your audience.

226
00:35:10.452 --> 00:35:16.832
Even if your content serves a specific niche, AdSense ensures your visitors see ads that matter to them wherever they are.

227
00:35:16.852 --> 00:35:30.372
Publishers like wikiHow trust AdSense because the ads are high quality, the setup is simple, and the revenue is consistent. Visit google/earnwithadsense to learn more. That's G-O-O.G-L-E/earnwithadsense.

228
00:35:30.932 --> 00:35:42.781
Uh, so you'd said earlier that, um, Morning Trojan has no social presence. Um, I found your TEDx presentation, uh, from like- [laughs]... it must have been four, four years ago or something.

229
00:35:42.812 --> 00:35:48.252
Uh- I think it was during your senior year of high school. Um, but, but I bring this up to say, you know, you, you're, you're a natural presenter. Some real deep cuts.

230
00:35:48.291 --> 00:35:56.742
[laughs] Uh, uh, you know, just search, uh, Tom Ochan on, on, on YouTube, and it pops up. Yeah. Yeah. But I bring this up to say, you know, you're a good presenter. You've got... We're on the podcast now.

231
00:35:56.792 --> 00:36:07.962
You've got a g- a great podcast voice. Um, I wonder if, like, you have plans or interest in doing some kind of front of camera or on mic work. That has, doesn't seem to have been anything you've really done so far.

232
00:36:08.312 --> 00:36:15.602
I couldn't find anything besides a couple podcast appearances and that, and that presentation. But, like, is that something you are pursuing? Right.

233
00:36:15.632 --> 00:36:27.142
You know, uh, so sometimes at The Standard, uh, they make us go on TV to, uh, talk about our stories, and every time I have to go on TV, I'm like, "Fuck, like-" [laughs] Oh, woe is you. I hate it.

234
00:36:27.792 --> 00:36:37.972
[laughs] It's like, it just, it's like, it's like I, I don't know. It's like it's, it's not my thing. And, you know, I, I, I think, I think I do fine, and I think I've, I think I've gotten, gotten better at it as I...

235
00:36:38.092 --> 00:36:44.092
And, you know, it becomes less, less of a chore, le- less of a hassle, you know, when you've done it more, and it's, like, less nerve-wracking, whatever.

236
00:36:44.592 --> 00:36:51.652
Um, but no, I, I've, I've never thought of myself as a, as a, like, on-air talent kind of thing. I, and I, I don't, I don't think that's where I'm best.

237
00:36:51.752 --> 00:36:57.491
Um, I, I'd like to-You know, I'm, I'm, I'm better when I can- Better in the weeds... craft a little jab.

238
00:36:57.532 --> 00:37:08.552
You know, I can spend, I s- I can spend an hour crafting a, crafting a written joke or a, or a, you know, working on some kind of snarky, funny thing, and, uh, you know, I, I think that's, that's what I have, um, the most fun with.

239
00:37:08.592 --> 00:37:13.592
But, but I mean, you're, you're, I mean, you're, you're, you're absolutely right in that, I mean, uh, I think, um,

240
00:37:14.712 --> 00:37:25.282
being able to, to present well and to, and to speak and to be on camera if needed is, I mean, is, is, is something that, that is, that is a, that is a, that's a skill, um, it's an, it's an asset- Mm-hmm...

241
00:37:25.282 --> 00:37:39.602
and something definitely worth, you know, uh, working on. Yeah. Mm-hmm. Um, something I ask almost every guest, uh, how do you define the term creator? [laughs] I think I might not be the right person to, to ask this.

242
00:37:39.752 --> 00:37:47.122
I mean, given, given that I don't consider myself a creator, but I mean, may- maybe, maybe that is a- We'll, we'll get into it... that is me. That makes it more interesting. Yeah. Yeah.

243
00:37:47.192 --> 00:38:00.892
Um, a cre- I guess, I mean, I guess I think, I guess I think influencer. I, I, I, when I think creator, I think something distinct from journalist. Um- Mm.

244
00:38:01.492 --> 00:38:18.712
I think there are some journalists who, who obviously kind of blur the line, and particularly in the newsletter space, or ones who are, uh, more native to social media. Um, but I, I, I guess I think of somebody who's...

245
00:38:19.992 --> 00:38:26.652
You know, it's difficult. [laughs] That's a, that's a, that's a difficult one. No, no, no. That, that's interesting. I mean, it's interesting that you in- I think that's... you instantly- Yeah...

246
00:38:26.682 --> 00:38:33.592
yeah, you interest- you in- instantly reach for the word influencer and social media. Um, I mean, and then you, you know, distinct from a journalist.

247
00:38:33.752 --> 00:38:36.272
I, I'm, which I'm always interested in asking journalists what they think, right?

248
00:38:36.312 --> 00:38:45.702
Like, I asked, um, Sophia Smith Galer this when I had her on a couple months ago, and she formerly, you know, she went to journalism school, I believe, or broadcast media school- Mm...

249
00:38:45.712 --> 00:38:54.492
and then she worked at the BBC and then Vice, and then she, um, I think when she was at the BBC she started making short form videos, TikToks, and, uh, finding success with that.

250
00:38:54.572 --> 00:39:01.312
She really figured out how to package, um, how to retell, you know, longer form written journalism stories for the TikTok audience.

251
00:39:01.832 --> 00:39:17.201
Um, and I asked her, like, how she defines creator, journalist, creator-journalist, and her definition was she was like, "I use the word creator-journalist, uh, for myself to signal to people that I am a journalist who traffics in short form video," and like, that, that is, like- Mm...

252
00:39:17.242 --> 00:39:23.112
a important medium for me. Who traffics- And so-... in short form video. [laughs] Yeah. Well, she didn't say that. I don't know if she used the word traffics, but that's, that's my word.

253
00:39:23.292 --> 00:39:26.932
[laughs] Uh, but, but no, for me, it's like, I mean, a creator, there's a bunch of definitions, right?

254
00:39:26.962 --> 00:39:38.632
And, like, the real truth of, like, well, what's the definition of the word creator is it's, like, it depends on, um, the platform interests the person you're aligned, it, the person you're speaking to is aligned with, right?

255
00:39:38.672 --> 00:39:46.232
So, like, if you're... It comes from, from YouTube, right? Like, YouTube started using the word in 2011 to refer to YouTube users. So, like, the way we use it now comes from that.

256
00:39:46.452 --> 00:40:02.672
Um, but the way I use it in terms of, like, people I look, look for to talk to this is, like, anybody producing digital media distributed on digital platforms as, like, the core of what they're doing, um, who's somehow growing an audience for it and somehow monetizing it.

257
00:40:02.832 --> 00:40:13.282
Even in a very abstract sense where it's like you're not really monetizing Morning Trojan. You know, you have some sponsorships, but, like, for you, the monetization as such is more, like, building...

258
00:40:13.282 --> 00:40:20.912
It's more just something you, you're doing that, you know, is, has a knock-on effect for your career and for your work, um, and for your future, right?

259
00:40:21.012 --> 00:40:26.182
It's like, that's, like, kind of a very indirect form of monetization. But to me, like, you are a creator in as much as you are...

260
00:40:26.392 --> 00:40:34.412
Like, my other definition that's a little more, like, okay, is, like, anybody contributing to the corpus of the internet, right? Which is what you're doing. You're like- Sure... you're out there- Sure...

261
00:40:34.432 --> 00:40:41.372
producing stuff for the internet, right? Like, what's content? I like to say that content is just, like, you know, whatever you look at on your phone.

262
00:40:41.562 --> 00:40:48.792
W- no matter where it comes from, no matter who makes it, it's content by dint of being consumed on the phone. Right? Right. Right. No, sure.

263
00:40:48.832 --> 00:41:02.072
And, and look, like, like I, I also, um, you know, we, we recently developed a, a website that, that scrapes the, the, the daily crime logs that the school puts out, and it's, like, really hard to read PDFs, and, you know, you can find it at crime.morningtrojan.com.

264
00:41:02.082 --> 00:41:09.332
Yeah. And it's this, like, it's this, this, this website that, that I developed, and the whole idea is just to make these crime stats more accessible. And, like, yeah, that's not, like, a...

265
00:41:10.052 --> 00:41:15.391
That's not something that a, that a, you know, reporter, uh, is necessarily gonna go, gonna go do.

266
00:41:15.451 --> 00:41:26.992
And so, yeah, I mean, I, I think that's, like, I think that the creator label is right in that, um, you know, we're, we're, like, we're making stuff that [laughs] we, we hope will resonate with people. Um- Yeah...

267
00:41:27.012 --> 00:41:28.422
but, you know, I, I, I,

268
00:41:30.012 --> 00:41:53.032
um, and I, I guess one way you could define a journalist, and this isn't necessarily, you know, I, I guess the two terms aren't mutually exclusive under this definition, but, you know, a journalist is somebody who is looking to, to answer questions and to go, uh, you know, find things that, uh, that people don't want you to find out about, and to, and to spread, uh, you know, in- information to, to a large group of people.

269
00:41:53.072 --> 00:41:58.592
And, um, you know, yeah, I mean, there's, there's certainly overlap with that. Um, and I think- Yeah... that the journalists who, um,

270
00:41:59.552 --> 00:42:09.732
maybe the journalists who are also creators are, are the ones who, um, can be the most successful. I don't know, like, [laughs] that's a, that's a, um, that's the question. Yeah. Maybe, yeah.

271
00:42:09.812 --> 00:42:10.972
Uh, last note I wanna end it on.

272
00:42:11.112 --> 00:42:25.012
What is, um, one specific thing that you are really proud of having accomplished with Morning Trojan, and what's one thing you hope to still do with it before you, uh, you know, hang up the hat, uh, next summer?

273
00:42:25.852 --> 00:42:31.632
You know, I mean, I think the, the thing that you gotta be most proud of is, is, is the audience that we've built.

274
00:42:32.072 --> 00:42:39.912
Um, you know, not just, not just the size, but the, um, the, the kind of loyalty of, of, of that audience. Um,

275
00:42:40.932 --> 00:42:47.552
you know, I'm, I'm, I'm proud of that and, and, and we've, we've put in a lot of work over these last three years and, and, and we are obviously continuing to do that.

276
00:42:47.562 --> 00:43:03.912
And, um, it's, it's, it's, um, you know, as, as you know, or any other, any other creator or journalist knows, I mean, it's, it's really rewarding to, to show that, to be able to see that your hard work pays off and there are people who are actually, you know, reading the content that you're, you're, you're, you're working really hard to put out.

277
00:43:03.942 --> 00:43:14.452
And so th- that's, that's been, that's been the coolest thing and, you know, I mean, that's just such an obvious answer, but, but, um, that's been, that's been nice to see. Um, you know, in, in terms of what we,

278
00:43:15.552 --> 00:43:27.352
what we plan to continue doing and, you know, I don't know. I, I think the goal is always to just put out better, better, more, more fun, uh, more, more attention-grabbing journalism.

279
00:43:27.432 --> 00:43:37.812
Like, we wanna do, we wanna do fun stories and, um, you know, I think we have some stuff, some stuff coming up that people, people are gonna like, and so I'm, I'm, I'm excited to, to do that work as always.

280
00:43:37.912 --> 00:43:43.032
Um, I think it's only gonna get better, um, you know, between now and, now and when I graduate. Awesome.

281
00:43:43.252 --> 00:43:56.752
Well, Timo, thank you for coming on, and I suppose if anybody listening is, you know, USC alum in the area of LA down there, um, they should subscribe. They only have what? Like, nine, eight months left to do so, so.

282
00:43:56.872 --> 00:44:03.672
A few months. Yeah. [laughs] Morningtrojan.com. Go check it out, people, and we'll see you next week.

283
00:44:06.192 --> 00:44:13.532
If you enjoyed that episode and are looking for something else about building a local media product, then I recommend this episode with Landon Huseby.

284
00:44:13.552 --> 00:44:24.752
He has a newsletter, podcast, and Instagram account covering life in Wichita, Kansas. It brings in $120,000 a year, and he tells us all about it in this episode here