I will be the first to admit that I have sometimes crossed the line with this newsletter. [laughs] I think that kind of put us on the map. You broke 1,000 about a year ago, July 2025.
You broke 5K, and then a couple weeks ago, you finally broke 10K. People want to read local journalism 'cause they, they care about the things that happen around them.
If you do that, and if you deliver consistently, you will, you will build an audience. For any listeners who might not have such training, what could you teach our listeners?
How do you find scoops, and how do you find stories is, is the question that all of us are trying, like, perpetually to answer. Yeah. Well, you're... But you're doing it. Welcome back to the Creator Spotlight podcast.
My name is Francis Zierer, and today we're speaking with Tomo Chen. Tomo is the creator of Morning Trojan, a newsletter serving the University of Southern California.
His newsletter has grown to over 10,000 subscribers over the last few years of working on it, and most of that growth came after one change he made about a year ago. We'll get into that on the pod.
So this is a conversation in the same vein as previous episodes on both local media entrepreneurs and creator model journalism. If you've liked those, you will certainly like this one. Enjoy.
Tell me about the relationship between Morning Trojan and the other on-campus publications. How many other publications- [laughs]... are there, and what's the history? Yeah, yeah.
I, I mean, we definitely have a bit of a, a friendly competition going on, and that's what's one of the things that's so great about, uh, the kind of student media scene at USC, which is we have, I mean, essentially three publications.
I mean, there's one, which is The Daily Trojan, which is kind of the, the legacy student news outlet, if you will. It's been around since, like, 1912 or 1915- Oh, wow... or something like that.
Um, there's a newer one called Annenberg Media, and so that's more affiliated with the school of journalism, and so kinda the way that works is, you know, if you write stories for classes, you go, and you publish it there.
Um, you know, like, if you're, um, in the journalism program, you're kinda forced to go work a shift there. Uh, and then there's, there's us, and so there's, there's, there's kind of a...
There's a, there's a healthy ecosystem going, and then obviously the, the LA Times and all the other kind of, um, LA news outlets will occasionally come and cover stuff about USC, given that it is such a kind of large part of, of Los Angeles.
But, you know, day-to-day, uh, student media competition, there are three of us, and there is certainly, uh, some friendly, friendly competition to see who, who, who reaches the scoops first. Mm-hmm. Um, do they like...
I mean, you're kind of disrupting a little bit, right?
When we first spoke, you told me that you had worked for at least one of these, and that, you know, you kind of realized, oh, the people weren't really reading them at the rates you might expect or desire.
And so when you made Morning Trojan, it was partially at least to kind of solve that distribution problem. Right. Right. You know, it, it... In some ways, we have almost different audiences in that- Hmm...
um, the other student media outlets, I mean,
uh, I'm, I, I'm not, like, too familiar with, with their, with their traffic and, and their, and their numbers, but, you know, at least when I was there, I mean, a lot of the, the traffic was coming from social.
And, and it was... Yeah, basically, like, you have a large audience on Instagram.
Like, I think The Daily Trojan has, like, 30,000 followers, and the other one has, like, 20, and so that, you know, that, that's a good number. Hmm.
And they'll, they'll, they'll get a lot of impressions on these posts, and that's where, that's where most college students are by and large, so you know- Mm-hmm... that, that's great.
Um, you know, for us, uh, you know, we're not on social media, and the reason, the reason why we, we did it as a newsletter was originally, I mean, the whole idea was to, um, kind of get people off social media, but, but, but to give them a news product that was still gonna be digestible and, and, you know, actually, like, pleasant, uh, to read.
And so we, we kind of, um, in some ways almost control the distribution of the, the web content about USC.
Um, you know, we have at this point something like 11,000 subscribers, which is a substantial chunk of, of, like, the [laughs] the people at USC who are gonna be interested in reading the news on a daily basis, so- I think you told me that there's- Um, you know...
around 75,000 people total, right, at the, like, the school and people who work there. Right. There are... Yeah. Yeah, 70,000, you know, undergrads, grads, uh, professors, and, like, staff.
Um, and then, you know, I mean, obviously that, that number could get expanded to, you could call it 100,000 or 150, or 200,000 if you wanna count parents and, and alumni or, or whatever. But that, that's kind of the...
You know, when I think about the core audience that we're going after, you know, it's, like, these 70,000 people who are at USC every day, right? Um- Mm-hmm...
and, you know, to, to some degree, you know, uh, uh, especially 'cause this newsletter's really just, just me writing it, you know, my, my feeling is, like, if I get beaten on a story, it's like, okay, fine.
Like, uh, the, the, you know, um, you know, the, the... That's great for our competitors, and people can come to our newsletter, and they can, they can... Like, that's where they're gonna learn about it. Um- Mm-hmm...
I, I almost liken it to a, um...
Like, when you walk into a Costco, and you're choosing between, like, two brands of pretzels, and there's, like, the Kirkland Signature brand, and then there's, there's, like, the name brand.
I'm like, Costco doesn't really care which one you get. Like, maybe they make more money if you get the Kirkland Signature one.
There's some people that- But, like, you're there, you're there, and you're in, and you're in the Costco, right? Um, and, like- Yeah... that's kind of the value.
That, that's the beauty of these, like, the aggregation and the, and the curation. Mm-hmm. Um, so all these other publications you listed are funded by the school, right? And you are not.
I, I think you pay for this out of pocket. Uh, there's some sponsorship revenue, but this isn't really a, you know, money-printing, uh, machine for you. But that- No, not at all...
probably allows you to do things and cover stories, y- right? You know, the, the, the tone of subject lines, all these little details, right? This probably allows you to do things that these other publications couldn't.
Yeah, and, uh, I think that's true, but I mean, I, I will... I, I think it's worth prefacing that with the fact that I've worked at, you know, these other student media publications. Not to trash them.
And there's a never... Yeah. Well, yeah. I mean, like, and, and there, there was never a sense on my part that, that the school or, or the faculty wouldn't, wouldn't let us write, you know, any particular thing.
I mean, like, granted, I'm sure there are things I've done in my newsletter that, that would not have flown, I mean, [laughs] for, for, for many reasons at these other, um, publications. But, but yes.
I mean, like, we-During the pro-Palestinian, um, encampments, um, you know, a few, few semesters ago, um, I felt like USC, like, like many other, uh, higher education institutions, uh, there's a lot of animosity between the kind of students and the, and the faculty, and the, and the school's administration.
And, you know, people were penning, um, you know, thoughtful op-eds about this in The Daily Trojan and the LA Times.
Um, and what we did was we held a Moron of the Year competition in which we let our readers vote on the Moron of the Year, and then we me- I FedExed a Moron of the Year trophy to the university president.
Um, [laughs] which, you know, wa-was, was like, am I gonna look back on that- Annenberg Media might not have let you do that. Right.
Yeah, and like, I mean, you know, that's one of those things where like, like I will be the first to admit that, that I have sometimes kind of crossed the line, uh, with this newsletter.
Like, you know, like am I gonna look back, uh, on the Moron of the Year trophy in ten years and be like, [tsking] "I was kind of an asshole"? Like, probably.
But, um, I, I, I, I do, I do feel like we, we have latitude to do things like that where, you know, I think it's easy to, to write off something like that as, as kind of, you know, like crass or, or- Mm...
you know, just a college kid who's just, like, looking for attention or whatever, which, like, you know, might be true.
But, um, I, I, I felt like, like, m- uh, FedExing a Moron of the Year trophy to the university president, like, really captured how people were feeling.
Like, they were not feeling like reading thoughtful op-eds about these things. Like, they were, they were pissed- Yeah... and, like, [laughs] they voted. I mean, I, I didn't choose her.
Like [laughs] it was the, it was the readers that chose her, right?
And, and, um, you know, we, we are able to do things like that, and we're able to have some fun, um, with the content, and I think that is kind of a sort of integral part of the brand at this point.
Although, you know, we've, we've, we've started to kind of scale that back a little bit and, and, and become, become a little more straight-laced just as the- Mm...
the audience grows larger and, and we do more and more original content. Like, I think there's a feeling of, okay, like we do need people to take us seriously- Distinct styles... because, like, we do need to raise...
Yeah. Yeah, exactly. Like, uh- Okay. Well, d- who, uh... how many people, if you're willing to share, you don't have to if you don't want to, how many people voted, for example, in that Moron of the Year, uh, situation?
We're-- We were, we were pretty small back then. I- it must have been, it was, like, 400 or 500. I, I actually turned it into, like, a marketing thing. It was like- Mm... if you wanted to vote- You have to subscribe...
you had, you had to subscribe. Like, or like, like if you, if you-- when you filled out, like, the Google Form, it made you give you your, give me your email address, and then I signed up the email address.
Um, so you know, it was, it was, it was a, it was a audience, uh, [laughs] it was a marketing thing as much as it was a, as a, yeah, editorial or, or whatever kind of thing.
Um, but yeah, I mean, that, that, that was back when the audience was still, was still relatively small. Mm-hmm.
Um, okay, so you did tell me that it really started growing once you started doing scoops, doing more original reporting, not just the aggregation product. But there's kind of these two distinct products.
There's the daily, week-daily, I believe, email, um, which I'll, I'll describe the format 'cause it's very simple and very clean. It's very completable, right? The, the intro says, "Good morning.
It's day of the week, and these are the five USC, Los Angeles, and California stories that you need to know for today."
And then there's five stories, typically one from you, um, that's on the, on the Morning Trojan website, and then various others from on-campus publications in LA and California publications, and each one just gets about 50 words of description, and that's it.
Um, and for I think the first couple years it was really just that, and you weren't really doing the original reporting, the scoops, 'cause you told me that when you started doing that was when you grew, right?
So two years of aggregation, and then about a year ago, you started doing more original reporting. [clicks tongue] Yeah, that's right. That's right.
And, I mean, as, as anybody who, who runs a newsletter knows, I mean, like [laughs] it's, it's very hard to get organic growth, um, kind of on newsletter platforms. Um,
and I mean, yeah, a, a problem that we had when we were doing the aggregation was at the time, I mean, like, our, really our only value add was, okay, one, like, the curation, but also, you know, okay, like we'd put in a little snark, and maybe the, the framing was kinda fun, and like, you know, the- there were, there was an audience of people who'd like it.
But the problem is, uh, [laughs] like it's, it's very hard to build a large audience based off that, especially when your target, you know, your, your, your market is really only 70,000 people, which is, which is not huge, right?
Yeah. Um, and so yeah, we, we kind of plateaued at the kinda right around the 1,000 mark, which is like, okay, like, you know, it's a fun project at that point, but, you know, like, does it really matter? Um- Yeah...
um, and then yeah, I mean, a- a- about a year ago, I think, we realized, okay, there, there is a need for this kind of, um, day-to-day insider reporting about this university, which is basically like a small city, right?
[laughs] Um, and, and there's, there's this need for, for this kind of, um, in-depth daily coverage about the university that, that the LA Times doesn't necessarily do just 'cause they write for a general audience, right?
Um, and so we have been able to kind of fill that niche, um, and w- you know, we've, we've, we've been, we've been rewarded in terms of the, the subscriber count. Yeah.
So you've shared publicly the numbers, the subscriber numbers. So I, it, I was looking at the graph, and I could tell that, yeah, you broke 1,000 about a year ago, as you said. Yeah.
And then by this July, uh, July 2025, you broke 5K, and then a couple weeks ago, as we record, at the end of October, you finally broke 10K. So the growth, like, has...
I mean, yeah, I guess, I guess it's sped up a little bit, but m- more- Yeah... so been fairly steady and just on a much increased curve since you started doing that. Yeah.
Have there been any particular stories that, like, drove the most, or has it really just been like, oh, you shared this one, people signed up for that, and, oh, maybe now they're sharing, forwarding the email to, to, to friends, and, and now people are having to click, you know, to sign up once they click to the web version, and it's subscriber-gated, whatever.
Um, yeah.
I guess question is, have, have there, has there been, have there been any particular stories that really drove it, or is it just steady?I mean, the, the, the biggest thing for us at USC right now is we're going through a pretty sizable round of layoffs.
It's been almost 1,000 at this point, and, you know, this is 'cause the university has racked up, um, a pretty sizable operating deficit over the last, you know, five or six years.
Um, so when we started breaking news about that, um, that sort of instantly, um, expanded our, our potential audience in that, um, a lot of our readership before that was, you know, it was, it was largely students, um, and, and largely, largely undergraduates.
But once we started the coverage of, uh, the layoffs, I mean, like, obviously that is something, like, that will, like, very quickly go viral among, among, you know, the people who are potentially subject to these layoffs.
Um, and I think once we started doing that, I think that kind of put us on the map for the, that, you know, like 20,000, 30,000, uh, you know, lar- large group of people who, who are, are the people who work at the university.
Um, so I think for us that has been one of the, the kind of, um, single biggest areas of, of, of coverage that have expe- that, that have, that have expanded the subscriber count.
But, you know, as, as, as, as I think I had mentioned before, like, uh, the news about the, the fires and the, and the hit-and-run car crashes and the, you know, kind of like the, the, the daily local news reporting, the, the kind of like traditional crime reporting, I mean, that, that gets at this point as many subscriptions as, uh, you know, the, the scoops that we get with, with insider sources and, and, you know, the business offices of, of USC.
Um, and in some ways it's, it's, it's cool to see that.
Like, people, people want to read local journalism 'cause they, they care about the things that happen around them, and if you do that, and if you deliver consistently, you will, you will build an audience.
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So you are studying journalism. You are also a professional journalist outside of Morning Trojan. You work for the San Francisco Standard.
Uh, for any listeners who might not have such training but, you know, aspire to maybe they're-- whether they're a, a writer or a video creator, whatever, whatever kind of creator they are, and they aspire to have better journalistic practices in their work, right?
How does one go about getting scoops, finding sources, like, you know, finding and then packaging these, this information for, for their audience, right? Like, just some, some basic journalism principles.
What, what, what can you teach our listeners? Yeah. [laughs] Well, that's, that's kind of a big question.
I mean, the, the, the how do you find scoops and how do you find stories is, is the question that all of us are trying, like, perpetually to answer. Um- Yeah. Well, you're, but you're doing it. [laughs] Yeah, and I...
And yeah, I mean, gosh, I mean, um, uh, uh, I mean, in terms of getting scoops and owning a beat, I mean, I think the biggest thing for us has just been being consistent, and the, the kind of the beauty of our product is that, you know, w- we, as mentioned before, we have these kind of two distinct products, right?
One is the, the daily email aggregation, and the other is these original stories that live on our website.
And, you know, essentially these original stories bring in probably 90, 95% of the, of the subscribers, but then the daily aggregation is what keeps them around and keeps them engaged.
Um, and, uh, the, [laughs] you know, it's, it's, it's great in terms of building an audience, but also, uh, we have, uh, sources who, who, you know, read the newsletter every morning, and then, uh, they're more likely to reach out and give us tips, right?
And, and it's because, uh, it is... We, we are, we are consistent, and we have established ourselves as this home for, you know, this kind of scoopy insider reporting about the university.
We've, we've spent, um, at this point three years building this brand. Um, so I think on my end, I mean, a lot of this has been about, um, just consistency.
Um, you know, in terms of journalism training, I mean, that's a, that's a, that's a more, that's a more difficult question to answer. I mean, like [laughs] the business side is so much there.
Well, if I, I'll butt in for a second. I mean, I would, I would agree with you, like, on, on just based in, like, with my work with Creator Spotlight, right?
When I started, um, you know, we had quite a few subscribers because I already... I took it over from, from Beehiiv, right?
But by, you know, a few months in, definitely a year in, certainly now, people are now pitching me guests all the time, right?
And there's, like, people who might send me feedback and say, "Oh, I, I w- I wish you would write about this kind of thing," or, "I wish you would interview some kind of creator from this kind of niche," right?
And b- which is just, I mean, proving out what you're saying.
If, if you do the thing consistently and, like, deliver on, you know, your premise over time, then people will accrue in the audience who then give you that... It's, it's really quite simple, [laughs] I, I guess. Yeah.
Yeah. Yeah. Well, you know, you know, [laughs] so, you know, it, it's, it sounds quite simple, and, you know, uh, uh, when you, when you r-r-reflect back on the work you've done, it, it sounds simple.
But certainly, you know, when you're, you're in the middle, and, you know, I, you know, I think, you know, I'm, I'm certainly still in the middle of it.
I mean, it's, it's, it's a lot, it's a lot of work, and, you know, you wake up in the morning, and you've got this damn newsletter that you've committed to writing five days a week, and you wake up, and maybe you went out the night before, and, like, maybe you, you didn't prep the newsletter, and you're up, and it's 6:30, and you've got, like, 90 minutes to go and push out this email newsletter, and, like, I don't know, like, candidly, like, maybe you're a little hungover, and it's like, dang, like, [laughs] this kinda sucks.
Uh. [laughs] Well, okay, but, but I mean, the, the format is so simple, right? Yeah. The format is so, so simple. Like, the entire newsletter is, I don't know, 250 to 300 words. Yeah. Yeah.
Um, has it ever really changed, or did you just kind of set it and, and just repeat it on and on and on? It's the, the, the fundamental structure of the newsletter has always been the same.
Um, it, it's always been a small number of these kind of short, uh, summaries for you to read.
And, and, and the goal has always beenTo keep these, the summaries of these stories at a length where, okay, you could read the summary in the newsletter, um, and, like, you can understand what the story is from that.
But if you wanna read more, you can, you can click into the story. And it's meant to kind of, um, uh, kind of walk that kind of thin line.
I, I think sometimes newsletters, um, lean too heavily into the, like, we're gonna m-make this... Like, we, we want you to stick around in the newsletter, and so here's, like, 1,200 words.
I'm like, I don't wanna read 1,200 words- Yeah... in your newsletter in the morning. Like, I, I wanna be able to pick and choose what I read.
And so, you know, this, this product is informed by my own sensibilities as a, a-as a news consumer. Um, but, but I mean to, to answer your original question, I mean, yes, like the, the, the product has changed.
Um, in, in terms of the length, I mean, there, there's a period of time where, um, it was probably, I don't know, 20... The word count was probably 25%, like, higher than, than what it was now.
And, you know, it, it, it got to a point where it was, it was, it was getting a little bit long. Um, I was like, okay, I think, I think we could scale this back, and also, like, I honestly just don't wanna write as much.
Um, [laughs] so... But I mean, of course, like, the, it's, it's actually harder in many ways to, to, to write less, uh- Mm-hmm...
'cause it, like, requires you to, to, like, synthesize these, these, these ideas more and, like, kind of engage more, more, more critically with, [laughs] with, like, the information you're, you're writing about.
And so, um, uh, you know, that, that, that can be difficult. Um, but no, um, you know, we've...
I think we've, uh, in the last 12 months it really settled on a kinda format, and I think, um, the beauty of doing this for many years in a row is that you kind of get used to doing it, and you can kinda start writing it faster.
And, you know, I used to, like, stare at the computer screen and, like, bang my head on the keyboard 'cause I couldn't figure out what to write.
And now, you know, I, I do it in bed, and I crank it out, and, like, usually it's fine. And [laughs] you know- Yeah... like usually there aren't deadlines.
You said, you said in another interview that you would typically spend 90 minutes prepping the newsletter the night before, and then maybe an hour in the morning, so about two and a half hours per issue.
Um, regardless of, like, the exact amount of time you're spending on it, um, there's five stories, right? So how many stories are you typically filtering through to make it five?
Gosh, I mean, I guess it depends what you mean by filtering through. I mean, I'm probably skimming, uh, uh, 50, 60, 70 headlines, um, uh, when looking for stories on a given newsletter.
But it also, it also can depend, um, you know, if there are four, um, uh, really big stories about USC, like my, my, my work week for that morning- Some days you, you already know exactly what you're doing. Right. Right.
Yeah. Yeah, and like, you know, I've, like, already seen it or whatever.
But then, you know, some days there's, like, literally no story about USC that's, like, worth reading, and it's like, crap, like, what am I gonna put in this newsletter today?
Um, and then suddenly [laughs] you're, like, you're hunting through, I mean, not only news headlines, but you're, like, trying to find, like, a fun photo album to link to, like, from Instagram accounts, or, like, you're surfing Reddit and, like, trying, like, dear God, to find something that, like, you could, you could link to in the, in the newsletter.
So you're saying some days it's, like, five hours of searching. [laughs] Oh, yeah. Like, it can, it can, it can, it can really, it can really depend. But, but no, I mean, I, I, I, I try to do...
I, I do probably a half hour, 45 minutes of prep the night before, and then I wake up at, like, 6:30, 6:45, and I bang out the thing. And I have a, I have a proofreader, uh, named Anna, and, you know, my...
I'm, I'm supposed to send her the newsletter by 7:30, so she has a half hour to proofread it. Usually it's more like 7:45 to 7:50 is when- Mm... the newsletter is done and, and, and goes to her.
Um, uh, but yeah, you know, we have a, we have a system, and we worked it out. And, um, you know, I think it get, it gets... It, it only gets more and more efficient as we, as we keep doing this.
And she still proofreads every issue, the- That's right... as, as to every... Oh, wow. Okay. Nice. Yeah. Yep. Um, do you sometimes have, uh, other people stand in for you, right?
I think you've mentioned that you have, like, two people who will sometimes... Maybe, maybe they're writing articles or they're writing the newsletter. Right. Right.
So, so last year when I was driving between San Francisco and Los Angeles every week to, [laughs] you know, work, work up there for the San Francisco Standard and attend school, I, I, I had, um, a g- a guy named Matthew who would write the newsletter.
And, and, you know, like, throughout the last three years, we, we've had, um, you know, a number of people who, who have maybe kind of, uh, been on co-bylines- Mm-hmm...
um, either for the, the daily aggregation or maybe, uh, you know, k-kind of a one-off story that, that we publish on our website.
And, you know, there's, there's, there's, there's been, like, a, there's, you know, I'd say, like, every once in a while somebody will, will contribute.
Um, but I mean, right now our, our, our, the, the core team has, has really always been me and, um, me and Anna.
One, I think, problem with a newsletter serving college students, I don't know if this is the case at USC, but for me in my college, um, you know, I get my.edu email address, and then I think it was about a year after we graduate, they, they delete it.
You know- Yeah... you no longer have access to it.
And I've talked to, um, I think it was when I had Casey Lewis on almost two years ago, and she had done a, I forget the name of it, but, uh, she had done a product that was serving college-aged women.
And, uh, they experienced this problem where, you know, there was just this leak in their acquisition, in their audience, where every year around, you know, May, June- Right. Right...
uh, a large portion of their audience would get deleted. Uh, is that something that you deal with? So, you know, I, I don't have great numbers about it. I just, I just have...
You know, I've, I've, I've, I've looked into it some, but I, I, again, I don't have a, like, firm specific- But yeah. But, but from what I've, I've kind of observed, uh, myself, it's actually not a huge problem for us.
I think part of that is we've only recently gotten, uh, kind of very large.
So I, I don't, I don't have, [laughs] you know, like, uh, uh, many, uh, summers of, of seniors graduating and their email addresses to, to, to kind of, like, go off of.
But I mean, anecdotally a, a, a good number of seniors will tend to subscribe with their personal email addresses.
Um, you know, always at the end of the semester we send out a kinda end of semester email and say, "Hey, you know, if you wanna unsubscribe, you know, no, no, no hard feelings.
You know, you can, you can do it at the bottom of this email. But if you wanna, like, come and give us your personal email, um, you know, you're welcome to do that."
Um, you know, uh, part of it for us now was that actually a large portion of our audienceProbably 50%, maybe even 60, 70 is, is employees, right? And so these are people who are- That's a large percentage...
uh, you know, in th- yeah, yeah. And, and so these are people who are, in theory, sticking around here more.
Um, so I, I, I think we are, in some ways, kind of protected from that, that, that, you know, once, once yearly churn of, of students.
Um, but, I mean, long way of saying o- o- on my end, I haven't noticed a significant drop-off in, in subscribers or, you know, tons of emails suddenly, um, you know, bouncing, um- Mm-hmm... come, come May or June. Yeah.
Good. Um, okay. So when you were a junior in high school, you started the Midpeninsula Post, another independent news outlet- [laughs] Yes...
kind of like Morning Trojan, a little different, um, that I believe by the time you stopped working on it, it still exists. We'll get into that. It had 3,000 monthly readers is what you wrote on your LinkedIn at least.
Um, why did you start that? Didn't, couldn't you just join a high school newspaper? Did you have to- [laughs]... start something?
[laughs] Well, so I, I, I was on the high school newspaper, and that's, that's where I, you know, first kinda got excited about journalism. Um, you know, there was a moment where we realized...
Okay, I'm, okay, like, I mean, the context to this was that I was a high schooler who was taking all this too seriously, so, you know, [laughs] like- Well, obviously, yes [laughs]...
let's, let's, let's just put that out there first. But yeah. But that's why it's interesting. That's why it's interesting, yeah. You know, sitting there... Right. Right. Yeah, yeah. [laughs] Okay.
So, you know, we are on the high school newspaper. They're like, you know, 40 people. Most people are there to, you know, have fun or make friends or whatever.
Um, and then I realized, okay, like, there are, like, maybe two of us who are, like, writing, um, all, all the stories here. And, um, so the idea was, okay, how about we, we get the kind of, like,
most engaged, uh, students at all the local high schools together in one place, um, and run this newsletter? But, and the idea is that- Mm-hmm...
we will offer this, like, real, um, kind of, uh, you know, uh, i- in some ways maybe, maybe more, more serious, uh, coverage of, of, of the local school boards and, and, and, you know, sometimes the, the local city councils.
But we're gonna do it in a way that, that, like, targets high schoolers, and we're gonna be kind of, um, or at least try to be kinda, kinda digitally savvy and, and, and, and native to social media.
Um, and so that, that was the idea behind that. It was, uh, it was, you know, there was kind of this like,
um, you know, as I said before, kinda altruistic, like, you know, we want young Americans to read the news, which, you know, I think is a, I think is a, is a n- noble goal.
Um, I, I think it's not one that necessarily drives me now, but, but, but that was, that was the thinking at the time. And it was a fun- Yeah... it was a fun project, and we learned a lot and, you know. Yeah.
[laughs] Well, it's, so it's still going, right, which is really interesting to me b- especially because it's not, um, tied to any one school.
And so clearly that introduces some problems of like, oh, it's not like maybe, you know, the journalism teacher at this one school, it, like, falls to them to, to run this. I don't know. You, you tell me.
But, um, it's still going, which is the main thing that is really interesting to me. So how did this thing that you started, um, how did you hand it off? And like, how, are you involved at all still?
Um, I, I am actually not involved. I, I, um,
at this point, I don't, I don't think I know any, any of the people who are there 'cause, I mean, like, my, my brother was a freshman when I was a senior in high school, and now he's in college.
And so, so I don't, I don't know anybody in the, like [laughs] who's, who's, who's in the, the, like, four years of high school. I've never, you know, overlapped with them. Yeah.
You know, like, like, I think, like, last year- Which is awesome... there were a few of them who were on the thing. Yeah. Yeah, no, it's just great.
And, and, and, you know, I mean, like, last year, like, I think there were some of them on the staff who, like, I had run, like, track and cross country with back, back in high school, so, so I kinda knew them, and, you know, maybe we talk about it.
But, but no, now I, I, I don't, I don't know them. Um, but, you know, yeah, they're, they're, they're, they'll st- they're still going. They're, they're keeping it up. Um, when I...
I, I had co-founded the thing with, with, with a guy, Gil, that you had mentioned. Mm-hmm. And Gil's, Gil's great. Gil was a... He's a... I, I guess he's a, he's a junior at, at, at U Chicago now, and, um- Mm...
Gil, Gil works at, I mean, this is a tangent, but, but he, he works, um, he worked for Sam Liccardo, who was the, um, uh, uh, former mayor of San Jose who won a, uh, congressional seat in, in the Bay Area. Mm-hmm.
And he was, he was one of his, um, campaign staffers. And, you know, Gil's, Gil's, Gil's, like, really great, and, and it's...
G- Gil's a young, Gil's a year younger than me, so, so when I graduated, it was, like, kind of the obvious thing to do w- was, was to pass this off to him. Um- Yeah...
and, and yeah, they're still going, but, but, you know, m- my feeling with, with this Morning Trojan project is that I will be shutting it down, uh, when I, when I graduate school. Um- That was my next question. Yeah.
There's no... Yeah, you're not, like, is that something that you have wanted to do, and you just decided like, "Ah, it's not gonna happen," or you've just decided like, "Nope, nope, that was it. Had fun"?
You know, I, I think, I think for a while I, I, I, I did want that to happen when I was looking for somebody to pass it off to because, of course, you know, when you do these projects, you want to build something that lasts and, you know, has longevity.
Um, you know, it, it, it became clear that it was, it was gonna be hard to set something up that was going to be able to kinda keep operating the, the, the way that I want it to.
Um, and you know, when it's just you churning out, like, a daily newsletter and doing all this reporting, and then, like, anything extra on top of that is just such a hassle, like finding advertisers or like, like, I mean, like, just doing any of these extra things is like, you know, like, there's, there's a lot going on already.
And, um, you know, I, I, I think, I think I, I reached a point where I was like, okay, I'm, I'm, I'm happy just making this a thing that's, you know, I, I, you, you, you let a, you let a good thing go out when it's still good, and, um- Mm-hmm...
you know, it might disappoint some people. I'm sure many other peoples will be stoked, many other people will be stoked about that. But, but
I've, I, I've, I've definitely gotten a few, um, there've been a few people who have, who have, uh, made the case for me to keep, to keep writing the newsletter- Yeah... to, to pass it off to somebody.
And, um, you know, I, I, I understand, uh, you know, the argument behind that. But I think for me, uh, it, it makes sense to kind of, to, to close this thing down after I graduate school.
Would you ever pass it off to some so- some sort of, like, more formal school stewardship where like, oh, this is now under the purview- Mm... of, like, of, I don't know- [laughs]...
the, the whatever department, like-... subsection of the department owns it, and like, you know, every- Right. [laughs]... few years they, or every year it's, like, a different thing, and a different student runs it.
I don't know. W- would that defeat the purpose if the school owned it? [laughs] Well, I think having the school own it would be, would be, would be kind of antithetical to, to the, to the brand that- Yes...
that we've built. But no, I mean, I mean, I, I, I mean, like, yeah, I mean, I, I- This puckish gadfly of a newsletter. [laughs] Right. Right. Yeah, yeah, owned by, uh,
U- USC owning the IP to the, the Moron of the Year, uh, trophy and everything. [laughs] Um, uh, that would be, that would be funny.
Um, uh, uh, no, you know, I, I, i- if, if there were, if there were an existing news outlet that was interested in acquiring, um, you know, the, the, the e-list or, or, or, or the brand or some other kind of, you know, some of the other IP, you know, I, I, I would be interested in, in, in, in talking certainly.
Um,
y- y- you know, I, I, I think, I think the, the one world in which, uh, the newsletter keeps going is maybe if there's some institution, uh, you know, s- some, some news outlet out there that, that decides that they think this audience is valuable, and maybe this, the, the brand means something, and they continue to run it, and I feel that this institution is one that can, can, can, you know, kind of, [inhales] uh, I mean, not to sound like an asshole, but, but, but to, to be, be, to be, to be kind of worthy of, of, you know- Yeah...
the, the, the brand. You know, like I, I, I'd feel, I'd feel good about that. But, but no, I, I, I, I, I'm, I'm, I'm at peace with the idea of, of shutting it down, and it does not,
doesn't, doesn't break my heart to do so. Um, yeah. [laughs] No, that's healthy. Um, okay. Well, so you'll have shut this down by, you know, by the end of this coming summer, you will have graduated college.
You will have shut this down. You will, you know, presumably still be working at The San Francisco Standard, where you've been working now for, I think, about a year and a half or two years.
Um, judging by your general nature and everything I know about you, you probably won't just be working on your duties at The Standard.
Like, it- [laughs] You seem to be somebody who likes to be doing multiple things at once. Is there, like, a thing that comes after this?
Like, after you're no longer a student, after you shut down Morning Trojan, is there, like, a new newsletter?
Are you, like, you know, suddenly doing, like, short form video work or, like, hosting a podcast for The Standard? [laughs] What's like... You clearly have, like, a desire to be doing too much at once.
Like, what, what's, what's in the pipeline- Well-... after, after this? Okay. Like, the most, the most important thing to know about me is that I do not plan these things ahead. Uh, I- [laughs] Okay.
That's- Historically, I, I come up with an idea, and, uh, like, in, you know, 24 hours, I'm, I'm, like, I've decided to, to do it. And, um, yeah, I, I, I don't know. Um, I, you know, we'll, we'll, we'll have to see.
I don't, I don't, uh, I don't, I don't have anything, uh, i- in the works right now. But, uh, you know, [laughs] I, you know, I, I, I wouldn't be shocked if there's, uh, some other project I do.
But, but I mean, th- there is... You know, I, I, I am in a place where I feel like, um,
you know, I've, I've, I've had some fun, uh, during my time in school, uh, kinda doing these projects, but, but I, I do want to become the best journalist I can possibly be. And- Mm-hmm...
I think, like, right now that means just, like, focusing on the, on the reporting and, and, and on the journalism. Yeah.
And, and, you know, I am lucky to be in a place in, in The Standard that, that, that has the resources and, uh, is, is, you know, wants to be this, this home for ambitious journalism.
And I have a mandate, you know, on my team to tackle these, these, these big stories.
And, you know, that's, that's something that I, I, you know, I, I have, I have some, some decent clips, but, but I'm nowhere, you know, I'm, [laughs] I'm, I'm nowhere near, uh, as, as, as seasoned as, you know, many people ev- you know, certainly on our, on our staff, but, but, you know- Yeah...
um, you know, elsewhere at, at other, you know, publications. And, and I think I want to kind of focus on that. And, you know, and then, you know, you know, maybe, maybe I, I, um, you know,
do work that I am happy with, and I, and I decide there's, there's some other project that I think might be fun or, you know, I, I could totally see that happening. But, but I, I, I want to kind of- Mm-hmm...
uh, dig in and, and, you know, work on the, the fundamentals and the, and the, and the journalism and the, you know, the reporting of it all.
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Uh, so you'd said earlier that, um, Morning Trojan has no social presence. Um, I found your TEDx presentation, uh, from like- [laughs]... it must have been four, four years ago or something.
Uh- I think it was during your senior year of high school. Um, but, but I bring this up to say, you know, you, you're, you're a natural presenter. Some real deep cuts.
[laughs] Uh, uh, you know, just search, uh, Tom Ochan on, on, on YouTube, and it pops up. Yeah. Yeah. But I bring this up to say, you know, you're a good presenter. You've got... We're on the podcast now.
You've got a g- a great podcast voice. Um, I wonder if, like, you have plans or interest in doing some kind of front of camera or on mic work. That has, doesn't seem to have been anything you've really done so far.
I couldn't find anything besides a couple podcast appearances and that, and that presentation. But, like, is that something you are pursuing? Right.
You know, uh, so sometimes at The Standard, uh, they make us go on TV to, uh, talk about our stories, and every time I have to go on TV, I'm like, "Fuck, like-" [laughs] Oh, woe is you. I hate it.
[laughs] It's like, it just, it's like, it's like I, I don't know. It's like it's, it's not my thing. And, you know, I, I, I think, I think I do fine, and I think I've, I think I've gotten, gotten better at it as I...
And, you know, it becomes less, less of a chore, le- less of a hassle, you know, when you've done it more, and it's, like, less nerve-wracking, whatever.
Um, but no, I, I've, I've never thought of myself as a, as a, like, on-air talent kind of thing. I, and I, I don't, I don't think that's where I'm best.
Um, I, I'd like to-You know, I'm, I'm, I'm better when I can- Better in the weeds... craft a little jab.
You know, I can spend, I s- I can spend an hour crafting a, crafting a written joke or a, or a, you know, working on some kind of snarky, funny thing, and, uh, you know, I, I think that's, that's what I have, um, the most fun with.
But, but I mean, you're, you're, I mean, you're, you're, you're absolutely right in that, I mean, uh, I think, um,
being able to, to present well and to, and to speak and to be on camera if needed is, I mean, is, is, is something that, that is, that is a, that is a, that's a skill, um, it's an, it's an asset- Mm-hmm...
and something definitely worth, you know, uh, working on. Yeah. Mm-hmm. Um, something I ask almost every guest, uh, how do you define the term creator? [laughs] I think I might not be the right person to, to ask this.
I mean, given, given that I don't consider myself a creator, but I mean, may- maybe, maybe that is a- We'll, we'll get into it... that is me. That makes it more interesting. Yeah. Yeah.
Um, a cre- I guess, I mean, I guess I think, I guess I think influencer. I, I, I, when I think creator, I think something distinct from journalist. Um- Mm.
I think there are some journalists who, who obviously kind of blur the line, and particularly in the newsletter space, or ones who are, uh, more native to social media. Um, but I, I, I guess I think of somebody who's...
You know, it's difficult. [laughs] That's a, that's a, that's a difficult one. No, no, no. That, that's interesting. I mean, it's interesting that you in- I think that's... you instantly- Yeah...
yeah, you interest- you in- instantly reach for the word influencer and social media. Um, I mean, and then you, you know, distinct from a journalist.
I, I'm, which I'm always interested in asking journalists what they think, right?
Like, I asked, um, Sophia Smith Galer this when I had her on a couple months ago, and she formerly, you know, she went to journalism school, I believe, or broadcast media school- Mm...
and then she worked at the BBC and then Vice, and then she, um, I think when she was at the BBC she started making short form videos, TikToks, and, uh, finding success with that.
She really figured out how to package, um, how to retell, you know, longer form written journalism stories for the TikTok audience.
Um, and I asked her, like, how she defines creator, journalist, creator-journalist, and her definition was she was like, "I use the word creator-journalist, uh, for myself to signal to people that I am a journalist who traffics in short form video," and like, that, that is, like- Mm...
a important medium for me. Who traffics- And so-... in short form video. [laughs] Yeah. Well, she didn't say that. I don't know if she used the word traffics, but that's, that's my word.
[laughs] Uh, but, but no, for me, it's like, I mean, a creator, there's a bunch of definitions, right?
And, like, the real truth of, like, well, what's the definition of the word creator is it's, like, it depends on, um, the platform interests the person you're aligned, it, the person you're speaking to is aligned with, right?
So, like, if you're... It comes from, from YouTube, right? Like, YouTube started using the word in 2011 to refer to YouTube users. So, like, the way we use it now comes from that.
Um, but the way I use it in terms of, like, people I look, look for to talk to this is, like, anybody producing digital media distributed on digital platforms as, like, the core of what they're doing, um, who's somehow growing an audience for it and somehow monetizing it.
Even in a very abstract sense where it's like you're not really monetizing Morning Trojan. You know, you have some sponsorships, but, like, for you, the monetization as such is more, like, building...
It's more just something you, you're doing that, you know, is, has a knock-on effect for your career and for your work, um, and for your future, right?
It's like, that's, like, kind of a very indirect form of monetization. But to me, like, you are a creator in as much as you are...
Like, my other definition that's a little more, like, okay, is, like, anybody contributing to the corpus of the internet, right? Which is what you're doing. You're like- Sure... you're out there- Sure...
producing stuff for the internet, right? Like, what's content? I like to say that content is just, like, you know, whatever you look at on your phone.
W- no matter where it comes from, no matter who makes it, it's content by dint of being consumed on the phone. Right? Right. Right. No, sure.
And, and look, like, like I, I also, um, you know, we, we recently developed a, a website that, that scrapes the, the, the daily crime logs that the school puts out, and it's, like, really hard to read PDFs, and, you know, you can find it at crime.morningtrojan.com.
Yeah. And it's this, like, it's this, this, this website that, that I developed, and the whole idea is just to make these crime stats more accessible. And, like, yeah, that's not, like, a...
That's not something that a, that a, you know, reporter, uh, is necessarily gonna go, gonna go do.
And so, yeah, I mean, I, I think that's, like, I think that the creator label is right in that, um, you know, we're, we're, like, we're making stuff that [laughs] we, we hope will resonate with people. Um- Yeah...
but, you know, I, I, I,
um, and I, I guess one way you could define a journalist, and this isn't necessarily, you know, I, I guess the two terms aren't mutually exclusive under this definition, but, you know, a journalist is somebody who is looking to, to answer questions and to go, uh, you know, find things that, uh, that people don't want you to find out about, and to, and to spread, uh, you know, in- information to, to a large group of people.
And, um, you know, yeah, I mean, there's, there's certainly overlap with that. Um, and I think- Yeah... that the journalists who, um,
maybe the journalists who are also creators are, are the ones who, um, can be the most successful. I don't know, like, [laughs] that's a, that's a, um, that's the question. Yeah. Maybe, yeah.
Uh, last note I wanna end it on.
What is, um, one specific thing that you are really proud of having accomplished with Morning Trojan, and what's one thing you hope to still do with it before you, uh, you know, hang up the hat, uh, next summer?
You know, I mean, I think the, the thing that you gotta be most proud of is, is, is the audience that we've built.
Um, you know, not just, not just the size, but the, um, the, the kind of loyalty of, of, of that audience. Um,
you know, I'm, I'm, I'm proud of that and, and, and we've, we've put in a lot of work over these last three years and, and, and we are obviously continuing to do that.
And, um, it's, it's, it's, um, you know, as, as you know, or any other, any other creator or journalist knows, I mean, it's, it's really rewarding to, to show that, to be able to see that your hard work pays off and there are people who are actually, you know, reading the content that you're, you're, you're, you're working really hard to put out.
And so th- that's, that's been, that's been the coolest thing and, you know, I mean, that's just such an obvious answer, but, but, um, that's been, that's been nice to see. Um, you know, in, in terms of what we,
what we plan to continue doing and, you know, I don't know. I, I think the goal is always to just put out better, better, more, more fun, uh, more, more attention-grabbing journalism.
Like, we wanna do, we wanna do fun stories and, um, you know, I think we have some stuff, some stuff coming up that people, people are gonna like, and so I'm, I'm, I'm excited to, to do that work as always.
Um, I think it's only gonna get better, um, you know, between now and, now and when I graduate. Awesome.
Well, Timo, thank you for coming on, and I suppose if anybody listening is, you know, USC alum in the area of LA down there, um, they should subscribe. They only have what? Like, nine, eight months left to do so, so.
A few months. Yeah. [laughs] Morningtrojan.com. Go check it out, people, and we'll see you next week.
If you enjoyed that episode and are looking for something else about building a local media product, then I recommend this episode with Landon Huseby.
He has a newsletter, podcast, and Instagram account covering life in Wichita, Kansas. It brings in $120,000 a year, and he tells us all about it in this episode here