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Welcome back to the Creator Spotlight Podcast.

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[upbeat music] I'm your host, Francis Zear, and with us today is Michelle Curb, co-founder of Gloria, a modern media brand for adult women who aren't yet old but still aren't young.

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Uh, the primary product is a weekly newsletter, and Michelle is a sales and revenue strategist with nearly 20 years of experience leading monetization for early-stage, digital-first media lifestyle brands.

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Michelle, how are you? I'm good. Thanks on intro, very good. Oh, you know, we gotta, gotta give you- [laughs]... a good intro. Um, okay, so like I just said, you've been doing this work for, like, 20 years.

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Um, and I think you've been doing Gloria for around three and a half years. Mm-hmm. But this is your first venture as a co-founder, right? Mm-hmm. Yes. Do you ever miss being an employee? [laughs] Of course.

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I mean, well, there's part of it, I do enjoy being my own boss, and it's been a while since I've worked directly for a company, I guess, um, in a full-time capacity.

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So I think it would be hard for me to go back at this point. Mm. But it's really exciting to have our own venture. Both me and my co-founder have, um,

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created businesses for other founders that have exited multiple times, and it's really nice to be in the driver's seat and hopefully- Mm-hmm... to have the luck of being able to do it again. Well, knock on wood. Yeah.

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[laughs] Um, okay, I, I guess I should say real quick, situate for the listener what the newsletter is. Mm-hmm. So I'll give, like, a quick summary. You can tell me if, if I'm missing anything.

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So basically, weekly newsletter, uh, it's kind of like a 360-degree lifestyle product, I would say. There's like, you know, it's an intro. There's, uh, an original article every time. Mm-hmm.

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Like, half of it is in the newsletter, then you link out. Mm-hmm. Um, there's an ad that's, like, very well... You can, kind of barely tell it's an ad.

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Like, you can, but it's, you know, very part of, again, the lifestyle. Um, maybe some clothing, a lot of links there. I don't know if those are affiliate or not. Mm-hmm.

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Uh, some cultural recommendations, like, kind of short paragraphs, and then some quick, like, in case you missed it, kind of news, culture, health links, uh, that kind of thing. And, and that's it. Yes, that's it.

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It's a lot. There's a lot in there. There, there is a lot. There's- Mm-hmm... I mean, I didn't count the... Sometimes I count the links on these things. Mm-hmm. There's probably, like, I don't know, 50- Yeah...

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60, 80 [laughs] 80 links. Yeah. It's a lot of stuff. Yes. [laughs] Um, okay, so like we just said, this is your first, um, venture as a, as a founder, as a co-founder. Mm-hmm.

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So what I know of the genesis of, of Gloria is you were consulting for another newsletter back in 2018, which was, uh, the product was targeting women in their 20s, and you were turning 40, and you were kinda like, "Well, where's, where's the newsletter f- like, I don't relate to this so much.

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Where's the newsletter for me?" Mm-hmm. Um, and you started talking to your friend, ex-colleague, Leslie Price, uh, and you're like, "Maybe we should do this thing." Uh- Yeah... but you didn't really.

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You did make a Facebook page in 2019, I saw. Mm-hmm. [laughs] Uh, but you didn't [laughs] actually launch it until April 2021. Right. So tell me more about the genesis here.

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Well, so I was consulting, um, with this startup, but also I was working at another company called VinePair. Um- Mm-hmm... and

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sitting in a newsroom, like, sitting in a, the editorial room where, like, you're the oldest person, and you're still not even old yet. You know, you're like... I was, like, 39. Yeah. And I was like, "Oh, my gosh."

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But I'd had two kids, and, like, just my priorities were changing, and I still, like, love and am obsessed with media. Like, that's how I got into this in the first place. Um,

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and I just wanted there to be s- like, something that was like the conversations that, that me and Leslie and our friends- Yeah... were having, like, on text.

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You know, it's like the text chains were always so good, and yet there was nothing out there. Like, the closest thing was probably The Cut- Yeah... which I would say, like, has the,

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sort of a similar outlook, a similar tone to what we're doing at Gloria as well, but, like, they still have to skew young. And, um,

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I always thought that there was a market, like, that adverti- everyone would just be like, "Well, there's no one who wants to advertise to women this age," and I was like, "I don't know."

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I think that that used to be true, but I don't think that's true anymore. And so, uh, we wanted to create it, but at the same time, media was really about scale at that time. Mm.

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And neither one of us wanted to do that, just, like, put out a bunch of tons and tons of content and have it be distributed on social media and, like, never really create, like, your own audience. Yeah.

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And so having been through...

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I think that's where some of our experience [laughs] comes into play, having been through, like, every wave of, like, pivot to video, like, everyone launching podcasts, like, all of this social scale.

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And we're like, "You know what? We wanna own our own audience," 'cause we'd seen people come and go w- w- um- Mm-hmm... to the algorithm. Oh, yeah.

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And we just wanted to avoid that, uh, as our fate and wanted to sort of slowly build, um, our own audience and, like, had seen... I mean, newsletters have been around for a long time.

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I think most people like to talk about it right now as, like, Morning Brew was the first person- Yeah... that ever thought of this, and, like, it's not true. Like there- But they've been, like...

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Skimm had been around for six years. The Hustle had been around- I mean, like-... for four or five years... Daily Candy. Like, I mean, that's old. Yeah. But they sold to, like, NBC for, like, $250 million. What?

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I had no idea. Like, nobody does [laughs] that. Yeah. So, like, these businesses have been around for a long time.

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There was a, a bunch when I was coming up, like, my first magazine job in, like, the early 2000s in San Francisco.

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So, you know, I think we always knew of it as a good medium, and people, and we were people that subscribed to it. I mean, Refinery29 started as a newsletter, so- Oh. Interesting... it's just that when...

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Thrillist started as a newsletter. Mm. Like, a lot of these sort of, that turned into giant scale businesses because they felt they had to in that era all started as newsletters.

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I guess it's just too, like, I mean, the word newsletter now, it's like, I feel like the word newsletter was, like, forgotten. Yeah. Like, there used to be newsletters even in the '90s, right? Mm-hmm.

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There was newsletters. Even before that, there was, like, you know- Yeah... like, pre-internet newsletters were a thing. But then it was like- Yeah...

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then it was blogs and then, like, this new definition of newsletter, which is, you know, like, the thing I do, the thing- Yeah... you guys are doing. Um, uh, okay, before we get back- Yeah... into Gloria- Right...

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you did mention, like, your early days working, uh, in magazines and stuff. Mm-hmm. I'm really interested to hear about, like, how- Yeah...

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I mean, 'cause when you started, your first job was a-Like your first magazine job was for Psy- Psychology Today, am I right? Well, I worked at a regional magazine, kinda like New York Mag of San Francisco- Okay...

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called 7x7. Mm, yes. And that was like my first, uh, magazine job. I, I mostly it's relevant because it's kind of how I got into Eater and Curbed, which was like- Mm... you know, a pivotal step in my career, um,

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because it was sort of a regional play. Yeah. And I could see how many advertisers actually did wanna advertise on a regional basis, so then that helped when I went to Eater.

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But yeah, Psychology Today was my first New York City magazine job. Okay. And it was the craziest place I've ever worked in my life. [laughs] Yeah.

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Um, so I feel like, so Psychology Today, looking at your, kind of your resume, your background, everything else seems to be pretty, pretty lifestyle- Mm-hmm... like lifestyle type of media product.

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So I don't know, is Psychology Today that kinda thing, or? You know what? No. It, well, it is, it's sort of like for, it's, it's for a consumer. Yeah. It's not like a- It's not a trade mag... a B. Trade mag.

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It's not a trade magazine. I got that job sort of at the tail end of like print magazines and everything- Yeah...

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going, like, digital, but there still wasn't, like, a ton of great digital jobs, and, like, but you wanted to still work at a magazine, but, like, it was, there was less and less magazine jobs, and I was new to New York, and I had didn't have a ton of experience, and they hired me.

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So I was like, "Great." Like it- That's good... it was every job I wanted. I wanted, my dream was Food & Wine Magazine. Okay.

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And I had an interview there, and they're like, "Well, you don't have enough contacts," or whatever. You know, like you, it used to be, like, the kind of three-martini lunch expense account era.

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Like, it still was at that time. Yeah. And you had to know all these people, and, like, I didn't know anybody 'cause I was in San Francisco and, like, I just didn't have the agency contacts.

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And so I was like, "Great, I'll just go work for this magazine, and I'll get my contacts, and then I'll get out." And- Yeah...

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then that's, but I would spend all my days reading blogs, and then that's how I ended up at Eater and Curbed is I would obsessively read those blogs, and they posted a job one day. And I was like, "Yeah."

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Yeah, so you were, you were with Eater and Curbed and Racked, I believe, right, like from- Yeah... was it like 2009 to 2013 or so? 200- 2008, when they first, like, raised some money- Yeah... and till 2012, yeah.

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So that was kinda like, I mean, that era is kinda like, I don't know, the birth of, like, modern digital media. Yeah. Yeah? Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm, um- I mean, when we started, there was no Facebook. There was no Twitter. Yeah.

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There was no... Like, we all, like, I didn't even have an, an Apple, like, a Apple phone- An iPhone yet... an iPhone. Yeah. You know? Like, but I got one, like, for that job, right?

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So, like, it was all this stuff was just constantly new. And- Mm-hmm... it was an exciting time to, like, see what everyone was doing with all of these things. Yeah.

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I'm, I'm wondering, like, of all the different outlets, publications you've worked at, was there any where, like, or whether it's publications or eras maybe of, like, digital media that you've worked in, were there any that were particularly, like, the hardest to, to do, the hardest to, like, sell into for some reason, or the easiest?

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Like, what... I'm, I'm, I'm really interested in, like, the differences- Okay... between these, like, moments in your career.

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Um, I mean, I think, you know what I found was so, one of the best anecdotes is Nick Denton, who's the founder of Gawker, was one of the investors in Curbed and Eater. Mm-hmm. And

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I remember this hearing, I didn't hear him say this, but I did hear this from the founder, being like he didn't think anyone would ever buy an ad on Eater. [laughs] And I was like, like, "Curbed, it'll be Curbed.

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You know? Like, that'll make all the money, like, not Eater." And I was like, "That's crazy because that's the only reason I want this job."

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Like, I just thought about every liquor company that wanted to advertise regionally against this, this very exciting time in, like, food culture. It was like chefs were becoming celebrities- Mm-hmm...

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and, like, Top Chef was, like, the hottest thing, and, you know, it was like, it was an exciting food era. It was kind of when everything started, so. Yeah.

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Um- So that was really fun 'cause you had, like, a point to prove, and it, and it was, like, easy to prove it. Yeah.

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And Racked actually proved the hardest one to sell, and I think that's, like, continued to be until its end after it even went to Vox, um, because it was about sales. Mm. And nobody...

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One, fashion didn't like digital at the time. They thought it was too gutter, you know? Sure. They're just like, "Ooh, we don't wanna be on the internet. We still wanna be- Low class... glossy Vogue," you know? Yeah.

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Um, and then they certainly didn't wanna be next to sale content. So it was like, it was almost impossible to get anyone to advertise on Racked. Mm-hmm. Plus, the name was not great. Um, [laughs] Well, wait.

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So, so at Racked, like- It was hard. Like, the name was hard. It wasn't- Yeah... like, uh, the sexiest name. That was where you met Leslie, your co-founder now, right? Mm-hmm, yeah.

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She was the founding editor of Racked and, like, created, like, an incredible fan base, and, like, people loved it. It was, like, the sample sale site for a long time, and then it, it, it evolved over time and...

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Um, but she was the voice behind that. Um, and it was just in- incredible, such a skilled editor and- Yeah... reader. What is, like... I mean, f- I, whether from, whether now or then or- Mm-hmm...

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I don't know, maybe over time, what has been, like, working on the business side of media brands- Mm-hmm...

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what's, like, your relationship with the editorial side and, like, making sure those things are, like, synergistic? Yeah. I mean, I think I've been lucky because, um, I think a lot of editor types like me. I tend...

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I'm, like, a big fan. Like, I'm a fan- Yeah... of all of this stuff, and I want- You were saying to me how, like, you, you were, you were reading all these blogs. Yeah. That's why you wanted to work on them.

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Like, I'm a fan. I'm not a writer. Mm. So, like, if I could, if I was a writer, I would be an editor. You know what I mean? [laughs] Yeah. Like, but I just am not, that's not my communication, uh,

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my best form of communication. Yeah. So, uh, I just was, like, a fan, and I was like, I'd been in sales, like, my, early on. I was like, "Oh, cool.

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Like, I'll just sell ads, and I'll get to be part of the whole, all of these publications." And so editors have always, like, liked me, and I've always liked content, and, like, luckily- Yeah...

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I've mostly sold, like, branded content, and, like, that part's really fun. I don't have to make it, but I get to- Like advertorial... come up with the concept.

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So it has some creative, and, um, I do think-I've always been really good at knowing what, like, editors will and won't do, and like, I have a decent taste level. [laughs] Yeah.

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So like, 'cause I've worked with people who don't, and you're like, "Oh, no. You can't pitch that." [laughs] "They won't do that." Um- Well, wait, wait. Say, say more about the, uh, what, what they will and won't do.

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Uh- Like how do you... What's, what's the line there? Well, often it's like, you know, it is like a fine line, right? 'Cause like the advertiser will be like, "We're doing fitness for like..." It'll be a car company.

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Mm-hmm. And they're like, "We're focused on fitness, wellness," or whatever. Yeah. And so you're like, "Eater." You're like, "Can we do a whole piece on like healthy foods or whatever?" And they're like, "No." Like, I...

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[laughs] You know, like, "We don't do that. Like, that's not gonna fit," right? Mm-hmm. Or like ro- you know, music. And you're like, "Well, we don't do music. Like, we're a food website." We're Eater, yeah.

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"We're, we're a real estate website," or, "We're," you know, "drinks." So like

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knowing how to find the, like, synergy, to use the word, uh, between the, what their campaigns are and what the brands are, um, is always really hard.

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And I think you do have to have a, like, you have to be, really understand, like, good editorial. Mm-hmm. And sometimes salespeople aren't the best at that. Yeah. Okay. So what about now?

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Like now that it's not like, you know, you're part of a larger organization- Mm-hmm... and, and you're the sales director, and Leslie is like the, the editor, now that you're like co-founders, I imagine- Yeah...

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it's much more, like, blended. Um, tell me about, like, your relationship and how you kind of demarcate the work now. I mean, we still bicker about it. [laughs] You know, I'll be like, "I really want this piece."

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That's what keeps it fun. Like, she, she'll wanna do pieces that I think are not gonna be good. Um, but I also am not trained at all in this, right? And I'm just like, "Ugh, no one's gonna read that."

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And then it'll be the most popular thing that, you know, people click through on, on the newsletter. Yeah. So, you know, I, there's times when I, like, push back, but mostly I lose. Mm-hmm. So that's, it's fine.

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That's how it works. [laughs] Um- What's like, what's like one of your, like- But we do get to come up... You know, she does listen to me when I'm...

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There's things in my life where I'm like, "You know what I really wanna know more about?" Or, "My friends here in New York were asking about this health thing."

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And then she'll help, you know, she'll assign it out, and we'll get the story, so it's good. And other times she ignores me, so. Yeah. Okay. So three and a half years or so you've been doing this. Um, how's it...

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I- is it profitable? We'll be profitable next year. Nice. It's been like, you know, we've doubled revenue every year. We've only really monetized since, uh, mid, like, early 2023.

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So like the first couple years were really, like, building the audience- Mm-hmm... figuring out what worked, finding just more people.

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Um, but we really just started monetizing, like, once we hit 25,000 subscribers in early 2023. I was like, "That's a number I could go out with." Yeah. But like when we had 5,000 subscribers, like it wasn't worth it.

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So, um, I was mostly focused on, like, growth at that point. But it was- Yeah... it was late those years. You know, heavier word load for Leslie as we were building the audience.

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Um, and then it's been a year and a half of, like, really going out to market- Time has been really small... like, the product. Mm-hmm. And, um, so. How about, like...

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So you were saying it was a heavily heavier load for Leslie. Um, is it just the two of you? I know you, we work with freelance writers, but it's- Yeah... just the two of you full-time? We also have a freelance, like,

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sort of the person who does, like, a features editor. Mm-hmm. So she helps kind of find those freelance writers, and assigns those out, and does all the back and forth.

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And then this next year we'll be adding, like, a support person for probably a hybrid. [laughs] They'll have to do both editorial and, um, sales.

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But I think that's, like, a good place for people who are interested in getting in media- Mm-hmm... to learn both sides. Um, but that's the next person we're gonna add. Yeah.

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So- Be nice to have a social media person, but it's so hard. You'll, you'll get there. Yeah. I mean, you have, like, 21,000 Instagram followers I think. Yeah. I mean, we've done that, like, ourselves. [laughs] Yeah.

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Um, okay. Well, uh, what about, like, chapters of the business? Mm-hmm.

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It sounds like there was maybe the first couple years where you were s- you were, you're building the audience, and now it's been like- It was like something we started with friends- Mm-hmm...

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and, like, we would get linked to from, like, our friends' newsletters, and sort of built it slowly, and then, like, through word of mouth. I mean- Mm-hmm...

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we get so many people just saying, like, "Oh, my God, I love it. I've been a subscriber forever. I'm obsessed. Like, with my whole group chat is about- Oh, yeah... what you guys write about each day."

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I think it's a really underserved audience. So it was sort of like the first years, we were coming out of the pandemic, most... Me and Leslie are both moms. Um,

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and that was hard to work full-time at that time when your kids were around, or school would be open, or it wasn't open, or, like, you never knew what was gonna happen that day.

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So, like, by coming out of 2021, things started to get a little bit more regular, and then we were able to kind of continue publishing.

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But we didn't really start to take it super seriously until we had kinda reached that 25,000. Yeah. And that was, like, two years in.

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So it was, like, two years of just, like, building it and keeping up the cadence, even when weeks were crazy and you don't wanna send.

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And, like, it's just really important to stay on the cadence of that- All the consistency... and create a habit for people.

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And then it's been, the second chapter has been, like, sort of proof of concept, like that we can find advertisers that wanna reach this audience.

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And, like, we have a lot of repeat advertisers who love it, who are targeting this market, and there isn't really a place to reach them outside of social media, like people who wanna be, like, part of the conversation- Mm-hmm...

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part of the content, versus just doing stuff on Instagram and Facebook. So that's been great. And now, you know, we're gonna be focusing on growth and monetization. Yeah. We're launching a second newsletter- Okay.

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Well, so-... next week... so this is actually what I was really curious about because when- Everything's happening this week. Yeah. We're opening the Beehive. This big new chapter. We're launching a, a second send.

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Um, we're, so we'll be Tuesday, Fridays now. Basically, Friday is just had a lot in it. Mm-hmm. And we notice people come back to it multiple times over the weekend.

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It's also, like, sometimes it would be if we had multiple ads and, like, a feature was really long, or then we had a partnership, like a giveaway, like the open rate would have problems because the-Google didn't like it, like it's too long, you know, so- Mm-hmm...

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or Gmail didn't like it. Um, so we're like, "Let's just split it into two. Like, it, it'll be more digestible that way, plus we'll double, double- Surface area for ads... exactly. Mm-hmm.

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So without really having to do so much more work, so we can keep our small team and double our revenue, so. Okay, so it's gonna be like, it's not necessarily like gonna be a ton more content, just like more digestible.

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There'll be like a little bit more to like make each one worth it. Yeah. So we're, we're gonna keep one that's like a little lighter. Sometimes it was hard to find

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a way to talk about like osteoporosis along with like leopard- [laughs]... shopping. [laughs] Yeah. Like these two things were sort of- Which is your brand, though-... fell disjointed...

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to be able to do that alongside, though. Yeah, so we're gonna keep one sort of like lighter. It's gonna be fashion and beauty and aesthetics and, you know, personalities.

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And then our Friday one will remain kind of the same, which will be recommendations, things to watch, things to read, you know, that stuff- Mm-hmm... um, as well as a feature.

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And each of them will have an intro, which seems to be a lot of people's favorite- Yeah, 'cause y'all's voice... part of it is Leslie's point of view, and people really feel seen. And I think she

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keeps it light, and when the world feels so crazy right now, um, you know, we don't talk about politics. We're like a nice escape, I think. Yeah.

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And a place where women really feel seen, um, especially in this demographic, but we do have tons of younger subscribers as well who love it.

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Well, so the, what you're saying right now, like e- everything you just said for the last like 30 seconds is reminding me of somebody I interviewed, uh, a couple months ago who when I was looking at the Gloria Instagram- Mm-hmm...

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one of her reels was at the top, Caitlin Murray, Big Time Adulting. Oh, yeah, she's great. Mm-hmm. Yeah.

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Like what you were just saying about like how you talk to your audience and stuff, it's ex- like exactly what she was saying. Yeah. Yeah- Yeah... I agree. I listened to that one preparing for this. Oh.

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And, uh, I love her. Like, I think what she's doing really speaks to me, too. Um- Yeah... and there's, in a sea of bombs doing it perfectly, it's really nice to see someone who's s- saying the truth or whatever.

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It resonates with me at least. You know, I don't think it's for everyone, but like- Yeah. Well, it doesn't-... she does- That's what's hard... she found a niche that no one was serving, you know?

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And I think that's- Mm-hmm... what Gloria's done as well. Yeah. Um, you also told me that you're gonna launch, uh, like a new paid subscription model. What's- Yeah... what's that gonna be?

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Um, we don't have that quite like nailed down yet, but it's definitely part of our revenue mix, like- Yeah... plan for the future. So we do affiliate, which is like 25% right now, and ads are 75%. I'd love to like

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take the pressure off the ads a little bit- [laughs]... 'cause that can be a little volatile. [laughs] Um, and ad, there's a lot of people who are big fans who want to engage further with Gloria.

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So like through education, I mean, we talk to a lot of authors, like for- Mm-hmm... interviews, and we talk to a lot of health experts. And so we thought if there's a way to do,

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o- offer our readers like access to those people, like on a s- in small digital meetings or like have small talks or do book events, which we did one this year, and it was- Mm-hmm... great.

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Um, we called- Like a digital or, or in person? We did one like in the store with two books that launched, um, that were really made for this demographic. Mm-hmm. And the authors were too, so Leslie was the moderator.

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It was great, so we wanna do more of that. But we want, you know, like for access to those, like gatherings, in person things, interviews, you know, we want discussions. We'll have that be

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sort of like a fan club or like a- Yeah... you know. Like, it's not like a sub- Like, it's not gonna be more content I don't think, like outside of movies. Deeper rather than wider. Yeah. Yeah.

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And, and like the ability to meet in person and like just engage a little bit more. So- So meeting in person, is it like, uh,

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is, is your audience like geographically lo- like centralized anywhere or- No, I mean, I think it'll be sort of somewhat difficult. We'd have to do it in- Yeah... in major areas.

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[laughs] Like, and there will be people that will be left out obviously.

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But, um, you know, I still think it's an opportunity, um, to offer it to our readers first who are part of the paid group of Gloria readers- Mm-hmm... and do special things for them.

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Um, and like there's a lot of beauty brands that wanna do sampling, like things like that, that like we can offer to like a smaller group of readers, which is like a little more manageable with a small team as well.

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Yeah. So like if we can sort of create this group of people who really like what we do, who wanna support us, and offer them a little bit more as well, I think that will be great.

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And I think we have the people there that are ready to do it. We've surveyed, and we're, we're ready to go. We're just trying to, you know, do one thing at a time. Yeah.

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[laughs] So right now we're redesigning [laughs] and launching a second one. Too many things all at a couple year. Hopefully by the end of the year is the goal. Let's like, let's, let's realistic. Get something together.

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Yeah. Um, I, do, like, do you have... It sounds like, you know, the audience is like kind of clamoring for a deeper relationship with, with Gloria and, and, and- Mm-hmm... with you guys.

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Um, is there like, like how do you interface with the audience right now? Are they replying to the emails? Uh, we, they just reply to the emails. Mm-hmm. But we don't do a ton of like back and forth.

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Like, I think we're a little bit- That's a lot of work... it's a lot of work, and we don't really have time for that.

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And it, it is sort of a one-way thing right now, but I think that's what we'd like to open up, 'cause I do, we do get a lot of responses, people who like love it, who feel seen.

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I mean, they just send us the nicest things. Um, so I know we're, right now we're not engaging as much as we'd like to, and I think- Mm-hmm... that those people would like.

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But, you know, we're doing what we can right now, and that's a goal. Yeah. Um, are you comfortable sharing any of the audience stats, like subscriber count, where you are right now, open rate, click rate?

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It's okay if you're not. [laughs] We can edit it out, but... I'm not gonna share all of that, but open rate is like between 50 and 60%, and like- Very good...

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click is high, like 50- I mean, we do, we put a lot of links, so- Yeah... it's like 30% of the readers are clicking on something. That's really, that's really good. Yeah.

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I mean, for Creative Spotlight, we're, we're not, like we're an article- Yeah... right? Like, so we, I think we get, right now it's like 1.25 is like kind of our average. Yeah. Um, which is fine.

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I'm not, I don't even- You're not linking out to anything. Exactly.

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But I always wonder with people with like newsletters like yours, like another one I interviewedUh, Casey Lewis of After School, who also you guys have interviewed before We love her, yeah. She's great, yeah. Uh-huh.

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Um, I also just interviewed her on our other podcast, Tasteland, like, uh, a week ago. Mm-hmm. Uh, but she was saying she was... It was, like, 17% clicks- Yeah... which is like, you know, when it's all clicks.

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Uh, which is interesting, 'cause, like, I, I read her newsletter, and I'll- Her newsletter's great. It's so good. Like, I have no business. I'm not marketing to young people at all. Yeah. It's just so engaging.

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It's great. But, like, she's so smart. Yeah. Um, yeah. Um, okay, tell me more about the social. Like, it, it seems like you guys are only on Instagram. Like I said, you're at, like, 21,000. Yeah. Um, it's, I mean-

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Me and Le- Yeah. Like, like good. It's more like me and Leslie are not- Social people... we've purpose- purposely made Gloria a brand and not about us. Mm-hmm. We're not people who like to live online.

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It's not where we're comfortable. It's not what we wanna build. Like, I, I think we've seen too many people, like, canceled or... [laughs] You know what I mean? Like, you're just like, I don't want...

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Like, I want a brand, so, like- You don't wanna be exposed... could be e- exposed, I- that can fit into, like, a media company. Like, I mean, you have to have...

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Whether you end up the opportunity to exit, you're building a brand, like, I don't wanna be related to our personalities- Yeah... 'cause then you're- Yeah... sorta tied to it.

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And I've seen people who have built their media companies on their- Get trapped...

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personality, and the, it's, none of them have been able to exit at a level where they want it to be, because they have to give up too much. And by the time you're ready to sell, you're kinda done, right? Yeah.

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Like, you know, you're gonna... You don't wanna have to do six more years or five more years. [laughs] So we've purposely, like, kind of not done that, um, because we wanna build a brand that can, like, live on after us.

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Mm-hmm. You know, like, whatever happens to it, like, that's the goal. Um, and also we're not incredibly comfortable with it. And [laughs] it is, I think, something that we've, we,

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we will figure out better in the future. Like, I'd love to be on TikTok. I think there's a lot of ways we can do it. Right now it's a bandwidth- Yeah. I, I mean, to, to-... problem...

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be honest with you, it's the same with me, where I'm always like, oh, I could be, like, you know, what... We will put some of these clips- Mm-hmm...

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of me talking to you right now on TikTok, TikTok, but I'm always like, oh, I could be, like, you know, doing, like,

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doing this and holding the camera here and, like, you know, breaking down bits and pieces of a newsletter. But it's like, I, I don't have the time [laughs] I don't have the time to do that. No, it's...

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And it's a total shift, right? Yeah. It's like right now I'm already doing three jobs. It's like I'm the growth manager, the revenue person. I'm also art. Like, I mean- Mm-hmm... I'm just like [laughs]...

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So just shifting between those three jobs alone and the three different tools that you use for those jobs. Like, like, content creation on TikTok is a totally different set of tools. Yeah.

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And so you have to, like, completely shift into, like, a new work mode, and then create a bunch of stuff, and then go back to other things.

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But I think, you know, like, what we're doing now, like, having our interview on video and on audio, like, that's something we could do- Yeah... and, like, turn into content. Um, and I think- Well, wait. S- sorry.

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Some- something you just said, you said that you do art too. Mm-hmm. And you're not very on social media.

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So when I was [laughs] researching you for this, one of the few places I found you was, like, um, an artist you've worked with had credited you as the art director- Oh, okay. [laughs]... um, on something, on a post.

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[laughs] Um, so, so I, I'm really curious to hear more about, like, you, you do, you do so much. You're a co-founder, makes sense. Yeah. Art director, sales growth, et cetera. What is like a...

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Uh, whether it's easier to say a day in your work life looks like- Yeah... or a week in your work life looks like? Right. I mean, I guess it's more of, like, I guess you could say I'm sort of a brand manager, right?

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[laughs] Yeah. Like, we're, like, the art is mostly just, like, making sure it fits with, like, our tone, like, uh, the voice of the newsletter, um, and the vibe. Uh, I, it's not like I'm doing the best job.

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I'm sure someone else could do better. Oh, that's good. But I enjoy it, actually. Yeah. I think it's really fun.

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So I probably spend, like, I don't know, a half a day maybe, like, doing all that stuff, like finding it, and then- Mm-hmm... like, sizing it and putting it all in. I mean, it's not...

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Usually I do it, like, at night while watching TV, but- Yeah... it's, um... I actually enjoy it. It's really fun.

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It's like you ha- you have, like, a deadline, it has to be done, versus, like, business development, which is, like, never done. Yeah. And there never an end, and there's never...

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[laughs] It's just like I should call 17 people today, but like- That's it. The business has developed enough. [laughs] Yeah. Um, so I spend, you know, a half a day, I'd say, on that kind of stuff. Mm-hmm.

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I spend probably half my time on, like, figuring out partnerships and growth. Like,

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what can we do that's, like, low-lift growth opportunities with like-minded newsletters, where we're just doing, like, a recommendation swap, and, like, keeping on that, and keeping on the deadlines of those kind of partnerships.

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So that's been a big focus. It's a lot of back and forth. Um, figuring out other, you know, like, we do some paid stuff on Meta. Mm-hmm. It's, you know, I think that's where our audience is, so we do it. Um, and then

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I do, you know, advertising stuff, getting new advertisers, getting their materials, putting their ads together, making them, getting their approval, you know. I mean, it's like, it's...

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I wish it was a little high level sometimes. Like, right now we're really doing all of it. Um- Doing too much working in the business, not on the business, as they say. Right, right. Yeah.

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Like you're, you know, cropping photos. Like, that's, [laughs] that's, like, time that's probably not your best time. Yeah.

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So, like, I think we are looking for, to add a support person to sort of allow us to do a little more high level. Yeah. Um, one more thing- But I still enjoy it... w- well, I mean- Yeah. [laughs]... uh, hopefully.

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[laughs] Yeah. It sounds, it sounds like you've been spending, like, 60 hours a week on it for, for three years. [laughs] Right. Um, how much ti- how much time are you, a week do you think...

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I mean, it, maybe it's hard to tell because it's, like, you're always on. Yeah. But how much? I mean, it's about 60 hours now. Yeah. I would say, you know, we both have pretty active family lives. Yeah.

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And, like, I never feel like this is pulling away from that, so it's actually, like, perfect. That's good. Mm-hmm.

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Um, so we've, we've talked a little bit about growth, uh, briefly at a couple of points now, but I'd love to just put a point on that. Mm-hmm.

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So you're saying that it's been, uh, largely kind of like, you know, inter-newsletter recommendations, uh- Mm-hmm... word of mouth, which I think it, because, like you're saying, it is such a, like-...

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specific demographic that's underserved, so it's like one reader's gonna share it with another. So it's this newsletter recommendations, word-of-mouth, and then a little bit of paid. Yeah. And that's it. That's it.

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We did do, like, some of the SparkLoop and some of that stuff- Mm-hmm... for a while.

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The thing I find sort of challenging about some of those services is that right now the newsletter market is really saturated with a lot of- Yeah... like B2B, bro-y, uh, AI, crypto. Like- [laughs]...

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it's not my audience. So, like- Mm-hmm... I think it's great for those newsletters, and those people tend to have a lot to say about how great it is for growth. Yeah.

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And like, you just feel like you're going, "Oh my God, everyone's growing," and you know, we did it, and I just didn't feel like any of it was super quality.

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And it was like, still took time and effort, so we kinda stopped there. But maybe I need to go back and explore that. We did- Yeah... you know, make some nice relationships with a couple other newsletters. And

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they're just, the women's market is, there's just like huge ones, and then there's Substacks. And so it's kinda like finding your niche within those, um, and finding people to partner with, but like- Yeah...

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really have your audience, so. This is, so wait, okay, this is actually, this is like one of my favorite soapboxes- [laughs]... to get on. Um, I, I love th- I've been using this term like the Newsletter Internet, right?

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Mm-hmm. Which is like as opposed to, you know, a, a, a big complete publication like The New York Times, which has all its sections and columns, et cetera, and that's like a full ecosystem. Mm-hmm.

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Then, right, there's the Newsletter Internet, where it's like you have aspirations to be this, like, larger publication, et cetera, but like m- you know, you d- y- you're not trying to be The New York Times. Right.

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You are trying to be this, like, lifestyle media brand for, for women. Um, you're not trying to do, like, breaking news, et cetera.

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Uh, but then it's like the, the cons- the reader consuming your content then, like, is also consuming, you know, seven other newsletters or whatever. Mm-hmm.

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And so it's like they are assembling their own kind of like newspaper. Um, and so I like, especially like with somebody who ha- has- who has like a Substack where it's like kind of a personal blog, um- Yeah...

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not that they all are, but a lot of them are, I think of that as like a column on the Newsletter Internet, right? Um- Mm-hmm...

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Substacks a whole 'nother can of worms, 'cause like they kind of are trying to be a media company themselves, and, like, these people are- Or a social network... freelance columnists. Which one? [laughs] Yeah.

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But, um, I, I, I'm cur- I, I don't know if you have thoughts on like this idea of the Newsletter Internet and, and your, your role in it for, for your readers. Um, I mean, I love that.

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I think we are a aggregator- Mm-hmm... obviously, of the internet for this specific woman. Um- With original content too. Mm-hmm.

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Like, we're finding the stuff that's relevant to them in, like, a world where there's so much content and, like, our readers are extremely busy. They're women between 35 and 50, kids- Mm-hmm...

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career's peaking, like so many responsibilities, aging parents, like, and you just wanna- No time to-... have a moment... troll Twitter for articles and clicks No, and you, you- Mm-hmm...

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they're spending probably more time than they want to on like Instagram [laughs] other people's lives. And, um, I think what people like really like about it is like it's this moment.

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Like, we get so much feedback, it's like, "I can't wait. Friday, I sit down," or like Saturday or whenever they read it. Mm-hmm. It comes out on Friday. Got your cup of coffee. Get a cup of coffee. Yeah.

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[laughs] And I get so excited for all the links. And like people- Yeah... we have a, like a fair, like our desktop engagement is a lot- Yeah... because people wanna be able to like go back. Yeah.

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So like open- Open tabs... and go back. Mm-hmm. So I think we're serving that purpose for like this particular female is like a, a cultural and like s- and like health. Mm-hmm.

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And a lot of people really want more health from us. There's so much misinformation and snake oil salesmen out there

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who claim to treat women that are entering menopause or perimenopause and have answers to all these health problems, and like there's really no proof to any of it. And so like- Mm-hmm...

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just offering science-based, actionable, like, health stuff. They just like, everyone wants to know like, "What am I supposed to be doing? I'm 38. What do I do so that I age well?" You know? Yeah.

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And they're like, "What, how much should I be working out? What should I be eating? Da-da-da-da-da."

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Um, and so like giving people like answers to that, I think, is a place that we're serving people, but like I think outside of that, the place people are getting this information is Instagram, you know? Mm-hmm.

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Um, okay, I wanna back out of Gloria for a bit- Mm-hmm... and talk more about, like, digital media business. Um- Okay...

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and like let's say, I mean for me and for the listener, let's say all I know about, you know, digital, like turning digital media into a business is like, okay, you can sell ads. Mm-hmm. You can do advertorial.

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You can do affiliate links, and you can do, you know, like subscription models. Let's say that's- Yeah... all I know. Like, tell me how you build a good, healthy, sustainable media business, digital media business.

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God, it's so hard right now. [laughs] 'Cause the internet is changing so much right now. Yeah. So, um, that's a tough question. Well, I mean, okay, I mean, that's, maybe that's too broad.

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I mean, it's, it's been- But so like-... different things, like, over the years, right? Let's, yeah, yeah. Like- Yeah, which actually, that's what I'm really interested in. Mm-hmm.

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Like, how you would say you'd would do it 10 years ago that just wouldn't work now even. Mm-hmm. Oh my God. I mean, honestly, it's, it's not that different. I'll say like- Yeah...

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if, if you f- found yourself an audience that is obsessed and loves you, I, and I'm, I...

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This is where I come from, like the sort of smaller niche lifestyle publications that I was huge fans of and couldn't wait to like go out and sell- Mm-hmm... and work with the people that were on that team.

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And like I could easily see brands that would align with it, and it's like I'm not that good of a salesperson. Like, I only really like, "I like this," and like, "Here's the brands that'll be good."

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Like, I would have a hard time selling something I hated, you know? Yeah. Like Psychology Today was hard. Um, so I don't think it's incredibly different.

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Like, if you build this audience, you find brands, you go out and you talk to them, and you come up with ways where you align, and you find a way to integrate them into the most popular features that you make that your audience loves, you know?

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Like, we do a lot of, like, stuff with like Ann Taylor, and, like, our audience also loves shopping and clicking on all the things, so it's really easy to like do an edit of Ann Taylor stuff- Yeah...

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and be like, "Here's the greatest stuff on Ann Taylor," and like-People want that. They want that ad, and it clicks through, and it really aligns, and it's been great.

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They've continued to advertise with us for a while now. Congratulations. [laughs] So I think, uh, thanks. So I think it's not that different. Um- It's all still just about, like, having a specific...

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I mean, it sounds like the core thing is always a specific audience, right? Like, you have a specific audience and- Like, who cares about you? Yeah. You know? I think that... I will say I'm not sure I can say...

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I'll say where the time that I struggled the most was the weird scale era, where there was like, I was working for a brand that was all about scale, but no one really cared about the brand. Like they were- Yeah...

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only getting it in their social media feeds. And I found that to be the hardest to sell interesting things into that were, like, big deals. Mm-hmm.

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You know, like, where you're getting a six-figure deal, and, like, the brand is super excited to align with you.

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Like, it ended up being this sort of commodity play, where they're like, "Write us an article, and then just, like, spend money on Facebook, and, like, get it out there and we'll- It was a quantity, not quality...

250
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pour..." Right. Mm-hmm. And like, it was just, you couldn't, it was hard to get a meeting, 'cause no one's ever heard of it, but, like, it's on their Facebook feed, so it's getting, like, millions and millions of views.

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And that was a really terrible era. Demoralizing. At least for me. I didn't like that at all. [laughs] Um, and like, I had gone from a really small, very niche Lucky Peach to- Mm-hmm. Yeah...

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this other place, and that was, like, a real whiplash. Um, because brands just, like, wanted to align with Lucky Peach, 'cause it was, like, cool. It was, like, one of the easiest things [laughs] to, like- Yeah...

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ever sell, um, because they could create beautiful content for them that they loved. And then the other direction, I just hated it at all. I think it's probably even harder now.

254
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Like, I'm glad I don't work for some big, like, Vox media. Yeah. Like, I just think it would be so hard [laughs] to really be selling against, like, all the stuff you can be doing on social and- Mm... I don't know.

255
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Do you, I mean, in your- I like selling my little newsletter. It's great. Yeah. Especially considering this audience is sort of hard to find other places.

256
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It's like- I think, I think it was in the other, like, the one other interview that you and Leslie have done about this, on The Quality Edit. Uh-huh.

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Um, I think it was in there, I was reading how you were talking about, like, that this audience actually is so huge for, like, the amount of spend they have, like in the market. Yes. Right? Mm-hmm. It's like eight...

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I think what I read was, like, like, it's like women in this demographic of, like, 35 to 55 or whatever control, like, 80% of consumer spending in America or something like that. You make all the money. Yeah.

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Like, all the money. Or, like, in a household, you're controlling, like, all the, most of the spending, right? Yeah. Um, so I don't know why people wouldn't wanna advertise to this group. It's amazing. Yeah. Yeah. Mm.

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Um, I think what you're saying too of like, you know, you, you find a way to sell the quality thing, that's, that's some, that's like what really interests me, right? And that's like- Mm-hmm...

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I, when I, doing Creative Spotlight, I try to find people who are doing, like, either really high quality content, even if they don't necessarily have a big audience, I'm interested in, like, I'm interested in when people are, like, producing something really quality, even if they don't have a big audience and aren't even really making any money from it.

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Yeah. I find that, like, admirable, right? Right. Um, but then I'm also really interested to talk to people like you, who, like, can figure out how to monetize, like, the- Mm-hmm... the quality content.

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Um, but I find it such a disconnect where, like, especially in, as we were saying, like, this quite saturated newsletter world, there's so many people who, like, I think are on- are only good at one or the other.

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Like, maybe they're really good at actually growing an audience, and- Mm-hmm... you know, m- m- making ad dollars, but they're not good at producing quality content.

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And then there's, like, the people on the opposite end, really good at producing quality content, don't know the first thing about making a dollar. Right. Um, and this is like, uh, I, I, I don't know.

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I, it, I think that's one thing, I don't know if I worry about it, but that I think is a problem to be solved, where it's like there needs to be more people, I think, working with people from the other side of the Venn diagram.

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You know, ideally- Yeah... you're in the middle, and you can do both. But, like, I don't know if, if you ha- can...

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I guess I'm asking for, like, advice you could give to people who happen to, like, you know, indie newsletter operators who, like, are trying to crack that other side of the thing. Mm-hmm. Like, how would you...

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What advice would you give to, like- Yeah... the, the creative person who doesn't really understand the business side but is good at producing the content? Yeah.

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So, like, I've had the opportunity to work with many people. Like, that's kind of what I spent a lot of my consulting years doing- Yeah... is, like, incredible creative product who never really hired the right

271
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revenue person. Yeah. And it's often because, like, they're hiring them, and most editorial people hate salespeople.

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So they're like, they will hire the wrong person versus hiring, like, someone with experience, 'cause they're, like, annoying. Or they don't get it, or whatever. Um, I,

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I think my advice to anyone would be to, like, think about it early. [laughs] Mm-hmm. People wait too long, and then, one, you've lost, like, a little momentum, like you're not new and exciting anymore. Um, and two,

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you're too far behind. Usually, like, I'll get a call from people when they're already running out of money. You know, and they're like, "I can't do this anymore."

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And I'm like, "But, like, s- literally, a salesperson, it takes six months." Yeah. Like, it take- you have to have someone working on this. It doesn't have to be their only thing.

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I mean, I'm sure there's a crop of people that have created businesses. I, I haven't met anybody yet, but, like, this is what I would've probably been doing, is having, like, four newsletters- Mm-hmm...

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and I'm, like, the contracted salesperson. And you're sell- you find four that are all together, and you're out there selling across it. I mean, this has been done for years, you know.

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People have been doing this for magazines and, and stuff forever. But finding, it takes six months to, like, really have, like, where you're not sweating anymore, you've got three months booked out.

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Because these brands are planning months and months and, you know, sometimes a year ahead. Yeah. So you're not gonna get an ad next week from, like, some big advertiser [laughs] just because you hired someone that day.

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So it's like, I do think there's a, a often a misunderstanding between the two sides about, like, how long it takes and how much money it's gonna be, and, like, how much- Mm...

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control you're gonna have over who the advertiser is, because- But how early is too early? 'Cause you're saying, like, you wanna start early. Like what- Right... what, what-What can you start with?

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Like, obviously it's not about just a number, it's also about, like, who the audience is, et cetera. Right. Like, I don't know. I- inasmuch as you can put that in a box. Like- Yeah... how early?

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I mean, I guess we're a pretty general lifestyle, and I was able to start selling ads at 25,000. Yeah. I mean, we're not there anymore. It's much easier now. Yeah.

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But you could get people to, to write you back, you know. Um, but that's general lifestyle, plus, like, there's very specific brands that are targeting these women right now, so I started there. Like the obvious- Yeah...

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ones. It's like, there's a lot of, like, telehealth and things like that. Or there's also, like, a ton of great services that you can just put yourself on and... Like Paved, um- Mm-hmm. Beehive has an ad network.

286
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Beehive does. I know, I'm excited to check it out. We'll see. I mean, it's always, like, not always great for, like, our newsletter, but I see how it works in a lot of the- Yeah... bro-y ones. [laughs] But [laughs]

287
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we need more women's brands advertising- I agree... in newsletters. Well, we need more- More women's newsletters... women newsletters to- Yeah... advertise in. Yeah.

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I mean, there- a lot of them are on Substack, so I guess- Yeah... you know, it's just sort of a different, different place. I do...

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I mean, honestly, when I'm researching for looking for people to, to talk to for, for this series, it's like- Mm-hmm... I, I, I'm platform agnostic, right? Like, I look everywhere.

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Um, but yeah, Substack definitely seems to have, like, the highest concentration of, of women. Yeah. Women, fashion. Yeah. Um- General...

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I was told by someone that there's a big hole in fitness, so if anyone's looking for opportunities, there's not enough fitness newsletters apparently. Yeah. That's interesting. Mm-hmm. I guess it's like... I feel...

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I, I think of fitness as, like, a, a category that's pretty well-served. But maybe that's, like, YouTube video content. Right. I mean, they do... Uh, Instagram. It's like, you wanna see it. Yeah.

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But, like- Instagram, yeah... there's that one newsletter, I think it's still called She's a Beast, but maybe she's changed it. Yes. Yeah, yeah. Um- Mm-hmm. I know of it, yeah... and, like, people love it. Yeah.

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She, she's great. Mm-hmm. Um, sorry, what was the question? I feel like- No, no, no... I already answered it... I think it's great. I guess- Well, the, uh... My, my advice is start... I don't know. If there's...

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I think 25,000's probably, like, a good number. 100's better. Yeah. 100's great. [laughs] You know? But, like [laughs]... No shit. But I mean, if you wanna talk to really big brands, you know- Yeah...

296
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uh, there's different avenues, right? Like, there's... We tend... We get people, like influencer agencies sometimes. Mm-hmm. And it's like, they're, they're more comfortable in the sort of size that we are.

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But I'm not... It's not affiliate only. Like, you know, they're paying for the space. It's, doesn't feel like an influencer campaign, um- Yeah... by any means.

298
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It's, like, the same kind of, "Here's the insertion order, here's what we're doing." Like, it's not influencer content in that sense. So, yeah. But it's...

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I mean, it's not that, but it's more, it's more about the indie, the indie media operator. Which, like, an influencer is, like, a type of, you know, indie media brand within themselves. Yeah. Right.

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Um- We're not, like, calling on big agencies. Like, I'm not gonna waste my time there. No. Yeah. Um, so there's... And, like, direct is always the best. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Um, okay, just have a few more questions. Yeah.

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We're, we're getting near there. Uh, what is your proudest moment in this business to date? Or, like, a favorite thing that happened? Oh my gosh. Um,

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one of our favorite bloggers, Cup of Jo, I don't know if you're familiar with her. Mm-hmm. Joanna Goddard.

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She put an article we wrote, like, on a, on a big post she was writing, she recommended that everybody read this article, and, like, that was huge for growth and also just, like, huge to see someone that we've watched for, like- Good for your ego...

304
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15 years, like, link to us. Um, I guess some of, like, those, like, when big people link to you is, like, exciting. I mean, she's not big, but that one- No, I, I mean, I can relate...

305
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she's very in the demographic, and it was, like- Yeah, specific people... it was great, it was great for us. Um- Mm-hmm... I think just the fact that we did it, and we keep doing it [laughs] That you're still here.

306
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[laughs] Like, like, that we took the plunge. I mean, we had this idea for four years almost, I think, like, before we even did anything. Three years. And you'd been, you'd been consulting for a few years, right? Yeah.

307
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Yeah. And we kept being like, "We should do it." Like, I had the name forever. Like, I was just like, "This is it. Like, there's this thing that's happening." And I think it,

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it's, like, now starting to, like, have more and more people, like, interested in this as, like, Millennials start to reach 40. Like, it, it's really kicking off.

309
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I think there's more and more people who are, like, interested in this content. But, like, I'm not a Millennial. I'm just, like, barely not a Millennial. Yeah. Gen X pass.

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And, um, so, uh, I think just the fact [laughs] that we did it, that we've created it, that it's reached so many people, that we get, like, every... We get so much feedback, being like- Yeah... "I love this.

311
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I feel seen." That's the best, that's the best thing ever. That's amazing. Well, congratulations. Especially when you wanna quit, and then you get...

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We asked a sur- We did a survey this last week of just, like, what do you like and what do you want more of? And it was just, like, like, 1,000 people responded. [laughs] That's, that's- It's like, oh my God...

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so- It's, like, amazing... wow. That's amazing. 'Cause that's a g- a lot of effort to, to like- Yeah... take your time, fill it out, you know, care enough to say good things to us, so- Mm-hmm... that's the best. So okay.

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So if, if you're feeling good about it right now- Mm-hmm... and, you know, this big new chapter is about to start- Mm-hmm... um, where would you like this to be?

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Where would you dream of this being, let's say, in one year and in three years? Uh, I mean, in one year I just wanna have a bigger team- Mm-hmm... and, um, be able to be doing as many things as we wanna be doing.

316
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You know, like, right now you're like, "This would be great, and this would be great," and everyone gives you their ideas, like, "I'd love to do this," and you're like, "I know, we just don't have the..."

317
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Just getting it out twice a week every week is, like, a miracle, right? [laughs] So, um [laughs]... Heard that. Um, so I'd like us to have more people and be doing, like, a little bit more, like, off-newsletter.

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You know- Mm-hmm... like growing- Yeah, those events... sort of an audience there, and, like, interacting a little bit more. Um, and then in five years, I don't know. I mean, I'd love to have... I mean, this is lofty.

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I'd love to have, like, a network of women's newsletters- Yes... you know, that are full of these great brands that speak to different groups of women, and- You got the science one. Mm-hmm. Exactly.

320
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Or, like, even for younger women or- Mm-hmm... for moms or whatever. I mean, we're very, like, not mom. We're not not moms. We don't do a lot of mom. You know? Yeah. That's not your aesthetic.

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It's, like, more about women who are moms- Mm-hmm... but, like, that's not their only identity. Um, and so we try to speak to that other side a little bit.

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Well, maybe you work with Caitlin Murray, Big Time Adulting, and develop a newsletter. Yeah, right? Yeah. Or, like, maybe we're, we get to a point where we can acquire other people who've built- Yeah...

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these audiences who don't wanna build the big business around it. Um, these are all... I'm not saying these are in our plans, but these are- They're in your dreams... amazing things. Yeah. Yeah.

324
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Or ways that I see that it could grow. That would be great. Cool. Um, okay, only one more question then. You gave some great advice on the, um, you know, the, the monetization for, for early newsletter operators.

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Is there anything else, any other advice you would give to any indie, indie media operators generally? Oh my God. Um, don't do it. Don't get into it. [laughs] It's a really hard business. It is hard.

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Uh, it's really hard to make money. Um, like, to make a lot of money, and there's easier ways to make a buck, so, uh- Be warned. Be warned. [laughs] Cool. All right. Well, well, that's it. Um- All right...

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thanks for coming on the pod. Where should people go to check out Gloria? Uh, hellogloria.com. You can sign up there. We'll have a new website too. The fancy new website. By the time this is on.

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Yeah, by the time this is live- Mm-hmm... it'll be out there. It'll be out there. Um, cool. Well, this has been the Creator Spotlight Podcast. I have been Francis Zier, and our guest today has been Michelle Kerr.

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See you next week.

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