Welcome back to the Creator Spotlight podcast. Our guest today is Sean Devlin, the founder of Nice News. Nice News is a five-minute daily newsletter full of exactly what it sounds like, positive news stories.
They've been around for a little less than three years, and they already have over seven hundred and fifty thousand subscribers. Sean, how are you? I'm good. Thanks for having me. Yeah, of course.
Um, so I wanna start with the Nice News team, 'cause again, like I was just saying, you're not, like, just an indie newsletter writer just doing it on your own, like so many people here are.
You're more of, like, the business side of things, uh, which is part of why I wanted to have you on.
So tell me, like, first what a day or a week in your life looks like, and then I wanna hear about the rest of the team after that. Yeah, definitely.
So I will say, even though we're r-relatively large in terms of number of subscribers we have, we run pretty lean. So our... I mean, I'll start with what, what I focus on.
Most of my focus has been more sales and partnerships. We actually recently brought on board a director of partnerships, Kenny, who's been fantastic thus far.
So, uh, a lot of my time has, has actually been onboarding him, but soon I'll be able to shift a lot of my focus towards other initiatives.
Other initiatives I envision being more focused on growth, um, just overall strategy for the newsletter, supporting the team, um, like, launching new initiatives.
We're constantly working on evolving our core daily email but also scaling content that we're producing on web, social strategies, maybe doing a Nice shop, et cetera.
So there are always initiatives that I'm-- I tend to be focusing my time on, time on beyond kind of the daily- Yeah... production of the newsletter too. So okay, so the people...
I, I think I'm taking this from an article that might be a- Mm-hmm... like almost a year old. So as far as I know, the team last fall was, besides you, a managing editor- Mm... an associate editor, a staff writer- Mm...
campaign coordinator, and then four freelance curators. So nine people, I think including you. Um, so now you've got this- Mm... this guy you were just talking about who, who came on. Is, is there...
Is that the full team, or have people left? Have people-- more people come on? That's pretty much the full team. We also have, uh... Our staff writer transitioned to an assistant editor role. Mm.
And then we have another writer that came on board that's supporting with, uh, the daily edition. So for the most part, that's-- it's pretty consistent. That's still the, the core team that we have. So yeah- Okay...
most of our team is focused on editorial. Yeah, that makes sense. Yeah. How has that grown? Like, were there, like, stages of growth where it's like, okay, it started, it was, like, you kind of managing- Mm...
business side and one writer or... and then, like, then you hired a couple more, et cetera. How was, like- Mm... what were the stages of building the team? Yeah. So when we first launched Nice News...
I'll, I'll kind of get into the evolution of the, the email as well. Yeah. But we started with... Natalie came on board.
She, uh, came from People magazine, uh, as our managing editor, and then she brought relatively quickly, actually before we launched the daily email, someone, um, Ally, from, uh, from People as well to support.
We realized it would be very difficult to execute this newsletter with just one person [chuckles] focused on editorial. Every single day. Yeah. And even if we had...
Yeah, even if we had freelance writers, it's just, it's a risk, in particular, if people are out of the office, et cetera, with holidays.
So it's helpful to have additional support just in general to execute what we're sending every single day, uh, seven days a week, but also if we have-- if we need backups.
So, um, it started with two core people on the editorial team, and then we brought on board Rebecca as a staff writer that summer. So- Mm-hmm...
pretty quickly, we had that core team of three individual, like, full-time individuals focused on editorial. And, um, now we're just starting to kind of continue to scale the editorial team. Yeah. Um, okay, yeah.
So y- we probably should, like you said, get into, like, the evolution- Mm-hmm... of the newsletter and, like, what this daily email- Yeah... is before we get too deep into things.
So I, I subscribed, like, a month or two ago when I started thinking about interviewing you. Um, and the way I receive it, I don't know if you have, like, segments that, you know, different people receive it differently.
But I get it every single day, uh, including weekends, and then there's an extra edition on Friday. Um, is that- Mm... across the board, or, like, is there other sends? Yeah. Yeah, that's across the board.
We've evolved that a little bit where, uh, what you're calling-- or what you mentioned on Friday is our editor's pick send. Mm. Yeah.
So it's, like, a note from the editor intro and then a curated kind of list of content that all links to articles on our website. And then we've evolved the Sunday send a little bit.
So at one point, we, like, framed the send as Mindful Morning. It was pretty different from the rest of the daily edition sends, uh, Monday through Saturday. Since then, it's now a little bit...
It also differs from the, the Monday through Saturday sends still, but it's more of a weekly roundup. So we, like, compile the top-performing stories of the week. Mm.
And it makes it a little bit easier also to schedule in advance. And then we have some other kind of fun sections that we test out. So we have a This Week in History section.
We curate different products and, like, book recommendations, what to read, uh, what to watch, what to listen to, and, um, amongst a, a couple other sections that we've been testing out in that email.
The core email has stayed largely the same but is evolving. So we have, I'll say lar- I say largely the same 'cause we have the- Mm...
the format of the intro text, three featured stories, um, in other news, and quote of the day. Those are all sections that we had at the very beginning, and we still have now- Mm...
and are, um, just works with the format of our newsletter. Um, but we've brought and, like, removed different sections from when we launched- Yeah... till now, and we'll continue to do that. Yeah.
Easy to take out one piece of the Jenga tower and put it somewhere else- Yeah... uh, from day to- Exactly... week to week. Um, okay.
I th- I think one thing too we should touch on before we get too deep into it is, like, the fact that this comes out of an incubator, right? That you'd been working with.
I think you were maybe on the founding team for four or five years. So this company is called Optimism now. Yeah. Um, I... Before, uh, uh, maybe it was called LikeMind and InboxLab at different times.
Uh, so it's evolved a bit.Um, but yeah, my understanding is it's like a media company incubator specifically for newsletters.
Um, I think there's like, I don't know, give or take a few, like, a dozen, uh, products under the umbrella right now.
Um, but yeah, tell me what is this company, and like what were you doing there for the four or five years you were focused on that before starting Nice News? Definitely. Yeah, it was like a crash course in [laughs]...
email publishing and web publishing for me, starting there from the beginning, and it has evolved a good amount. So Optimism basically owns and operates a variety of email-focused and web-focused publications.
From the beginning, it actually start, started with just one publication called The Discover, which is a travel email series, and it would send...
It started this way, but it would send a, um, micro travel guide every Monday to your inbox. And then from there we launched a, like a full-fledged travel publication.
But we launched a ton of brands through, um, Inbox Lab at the time. We launched, like, trivia brands, we launched quiz brands.
Um, now some of the flagship brands are Interesting Facts, which is like a fact of the day brand. Inspiring Quotes, a quote of the day brand. Word Daily is a word of the day brand.
So bringing a wide variety of content to the inbox, but also, um, providing value in the inbox, but also creating a format that allows, um, to drive traffic to web as, as well, so. Yeah. Um, yeah. So it was...
Like, I focused on a wide variety of areas, I'll say, at Optimism and like- Yeah... touched on pretty much everything, but honed my focus more on kinda strategy and operations over time. Okay, yeah. Um, I...
W- the way you're describing this, and like, as I was looking at the website, it... I'm trying to compare it to, like, a older media, like a more traditional media company model, right? And like what comes to mind- Mm...
is like, in all these different brands you're describing, it's almost like the fun section of a newspaper, but, like, each subsection of that, whether it's like, uh, not that you have a comics brand, but whether it's, like, comics, the crossword, sudoku, like, word of the day, whatever, it's like each one of those sections split into its own media brand that then is like, you know, has its own sponsored newsletter issues and its own, like, web, web ad revenue.
It's a... Is that, like, a fair kind of, you know, newspaper model comparison? Yeah, totally. It's funny that you think of it that way. I think a lot of times we'll, we'll reference like magazines or even- Mm...
social media accounts and, like, thinking about- Yes...
I think it's helpful just even for listeners to think about, like, if they're thinking about creating a newsletter, thinking through that lens of like what is out there that has gained traction on another platform that doesn't- Mm...
currently exist or could maybe evolve into a format that really is digestible in, as a newsletter.
And that's a lot of times, like, how concepts came about for or through Optimism, and creating a format that w- works well in the inbox, but also, like, someone wants to engage with on a daily basis and- Yeah...
sees value in. What I would... What are, like, two or three of the most important things you learned there that have, like, really shaped how you operate maybe now, um, in running Nice News - Mm...
that you wouldn't have known before then? Mm. Yeah. I think... I mean, I mentioned it was a little bit of a crash course. I feel like- Yeah...
I learned a lot, but something that really kind of, like, framed Nice News from the beginning was the importance, and Optimism leans into this, but the importance of design in product and having- Mm... like,
the thinking about design as not just a logo mark, and word mark, and, and color scheme, but, like, the entire experience within the inbox.
And I think that a lot of newsletters could potentially learn from this where- Yeah... um, they maybe think that content is truly only- Words... text or maybe- Yeah... we have words or maybe images, if that.
But I think design can really impact the experience of a subscriber and how they engage with that product, and ultimately how that brand can scale.
So, um, from the beginning, I've, I've just learned a lot about branding and design through, um, through Optimism. Um, a lot about growth, and maybe we can, uh, talk more about growth too. Mm-hmm.
But like, kind of like growth hacking tactics from the beginning and, like, testing out a wide variety of tactics to scale subscribers and, um, share subscribers across brands too. Um... Mm-hmm. And yeah.
I mean, lots of other [laughs] Yeah. Well-... things too. It's hard to distill it down, but [laughs]... we, we could dip back into it. Uh, so I wanna... Something ab- Yeah...
um, I'm, I've been working on the newsletter that comes out tomorrow as we record this. I was working on that earlier- Mm...
this morning, and, uh, one thing I was thinking a lot about, because this, the guy I was talking for this also is, like, very, uh... You know, e- e-mail is a visual medium, as he said to me. Um, and- Mm...
kind of the way I've been thinking of it and the way I think of it, like, for a creative spotlight is it's about, like, it's about visual texture.
Uh, and [laughs] I, I, I didn't use this metaphor in the newsletter 'cause it was a little too convoluted. I couldn't figure out how to put it in writing, but I'm gonna say it now.
Um, if you've ever been rock climbing, right? Um, y- just in like a rock climbing gym. You'll go and there's, like, the different difficulties of, of, of, of route. There's, like, V0 through V8 or whatever.
And the V8 ones, sometimes they're just, like, these weird curved things where you're like, "Where the hell do I grab onto? Like, what... How do I climb up that?"
And then a V1 is, like, very clear handholds, and that's... I think, like, newsletter design is about creating that V1 where, like, there's... You...
It's just very clear and you're, you just instinctively go up, as opposed to when it's like, you know, these weird curving shapes where you're like, "I don't know how to grab this," and then so you just don't engage with it.
So that... Like, that's kind of how I think of it, where it's like a visual scroll of text. But, like, you don't even have to... It's not about having, like, a graphic designer who's so good, et cetera.
It's just about, like, tweaking colors or fonts or, like, text sizes. Um, I don't know. Uh, no question I'm kinda just getting on my, on my soapbox- Mm-hmm...
about newsletter design, but I think that's something you guys do really well, where it's really quite simple, but it's just like- Mm-hmm... it's about the details, right? Yeah. And you know what to expect too.
I think it's beyond the design, kind of the product itself. Mm-hmm. Is, like, the formatting of it, the sections. I think how peopleEngage in the inbox.
Like sometimes they're not just gonna open an email and just start to read a novel. Like they - Yeah... wanna be able to skim through, or they wanna, like, get a few tidbits here and there.
So thinking through that lens is really helpful, for sure. Yeah. Um, okay. So I wanna talk about the, the kind of the origin story, the beginning. So to me, like, when I...
I, I forget how I came across you and how I came across Nice News, but I was like, "What?" Like, I was like, "I don't get it." Like, good news- [laughs]... isn't a topic.
Like, like, when I read news, like whether it's like I'll... I live in New York, so I'll pull up, like, Eater New York, and it's like I wanna read news about the food restaurant scene in New York, or Gothamist.
Like, I wanna read locally reported news about New York. And it's like, I wanna read the topic, and there's gonna be good and bad news within that topic. Like, good news isn't a topic. Um, but then- Sure...
thinking about it, I'm like, "Oh, okay. I guess, like, the appeal of good news is like..." [laughs] I'm, I'm just thinking of somebody, like, in a movie or somebody who's, like, disheveled.
They're, like, having a bad day. They're like, "Ugh, give me some good news," you know? And it's like something like that. So the... To me, it implies, like, the audience for this is, like,
people who are despairing, people who are, like, consuming too many things and, like, want this as, like, a rest stop on the highway of in the desert or whatever. I don't know, mixing metaphors here. Sure.
But I guess that's my question is, like, tell me how you came across this idea and, like, validated- Mm... this idea that, like, good news could be an editorial beat in and of itself. Yeah.
Yeah, I mean, what you mentioned in terms of, like, the rest stop, initially the idea for Nice News kind of started to come about early 2021 during the peak of COVID when I just- Mm...
found myself overwhelmed by the news cycle and, like, checking the New York Times app for every single day for COVID case counts. And I got to the point where I was just like, "This isn't healthy."
[laughs] I'm like- Yeah... training myself to be, like, super negative. That actually makes so much sense. Yeah.
So, um, I got to the point where I entirely disengaged with news, and through conversations with friends, family, I realized that a lot of people felt that same way, where it was sort of just like this sense of being overwhelmed by news to the point where you just get to the point where you entirely disengage 'cause there's no alternative.
Mm-hmm. And from my perspective, it's sort of like, why does it have to be that way? I feel like there, there have to be good news stories [laughs] out there. Yeah.
Or a way to, like, frame certain stories in a more positive light to a point where we're not just, like, so overwhelmed that we have to not be aware as, as to, like, anything that's happening in the world.
So that's where the idea came about. And I think, I think... Lots of thoughts in terms [laughs] of what you said.
But I think it can definitely be, like, if we're talking about a major news publication or, like, cable news channel, I think there's a potential for them to have, like, a good news segment or, like, like, an hour dedicated to positive news where people can engage with news that they deem to be positive, or a section of the website that's focused entirely on good news.
I think that's definitely possible. I think part of the reason we launched Nice News is because there wasn't this sort of safe space to engage with news where you know - Mm-hmm...
that the content you're gonna be reading is uplifting, relevant, uplifting. Um, so that's where we initially came from.
But also we realized that there's so many stories out there that were just being overshadowed by other headlines, where news sources were focusing, like, the greater majority of their coverage on, like, 2% of [laughs]...
I don't know the exact percentage, but, like, it felt like- Yeah... very little of what's actually happening in the world.
So there was just this need to uncover these stories and, and then present that in a format that's easy to, to digest each day. And obviously, having been in the email world, of course, I naturally- Mm-hmm...
thought of newsletters as the first, um, place to start. Yeah. No. So th- that makes sense. When I was thinking about this, uh, last night as I was researching too, I was like...
I, I, I was, like, thinking myself into this corner. I was like, well, I guess it's like... 'Cause I'm like, how do you have good news without bad news?
Because it's like, you know, joy and despair, two sides of the coin of life, right? Like- Mm-hmm... how do you... You can't have one without the other.
But then I was like, my problem is I'm thinking about this in w- as if it were an island, where it's like, you know, you go on Twitter, there might be... I've...
There's accounts that just post, like, nice pictures of dogs, right? And it's like, that's all they post, nice pictures of dogs. But it's like they exist within Twitter, so there's all this other stuff.
So it's just, like, one thing. So I was like, yeah, I was, I was grappling with this. Like, like, how does this make sense? But I was like, oh, well, I guess it's like, it's not like this is the only news outlet.
It's like people are consuming the other news things too, and then this is like, again, this rest stop- Mm-hmm... where it's like, I wanna learn s- learn about something that's happened, but- Exactly...
like, like give me some good news. Yeah, that's the goal, is, um, not obviously replace these major news outlets.
We're trying to provide a healthy alternative or supplement people's news consumption, so maybe they start their day with New York Times, but then after they read Nice News.
And ultimately, our mission with Nice News is to help filter people's lives for, through a m- more optimistic lens. Yeah.
So I think it's difficult to do that when you start your day and you're reading really [laughs] negative content and overwhelming content that translates into how you interact in the world. Mm-hmm.
Um, how you personally feel and then how you interact with others.
So the relationship with other news outlets, um, do you, do you know much about, like, how people who read Nice News, like, how this sits within their broader media diets?
Or is it kind of just like what we're already talking about it, where it's like assumptions? Mm. Um, but yeah, if, if you know anything about that, I would love to hear it. Yeah. Yeah.
I can't remember the exact percentage, but it was the greater majority of people are reading Nice News because it's content that they're not seeing on other news sources.
So we've leaned into that in terms of curation and, like, why we exist. And then also the greater majority of our subscribers are reading other news sources as well. It's not their only source of news. Yeah. Yeah.
Which I think makes a lot of sense. Yeah. Yeah. No, absolutely. Yeah. Um, one other thing about, like, relationship with, with other outlets. I, I...
When I, when I first saw it, I was likeI couldn't tell, like, is this an aggregator or is there original, original reporting, original writing? And n- uh, now my impression is that it's a mix of both. Um, but- Mm...
at, at first I was like, is this an aggregator? 'Cause I'm like, "Oh, I've, I've, I've heard this story before." Like, you know, I'm on the internet 14 hours a day. Like, I...
[laughs] So, like, I've seen, I've seen this, or I've seen this. But then there was something like, oh, this is like, you know... This person is being credited as having told Nice News this quote. Um, so I- Mm-hmm...
I'm really interested, what's kind of the m- the- Mm... mix of original reporting versus kind of aggregation and like, you know, recycling stories? Yeah, definitely.
So for the daily email digest, the greater majority, it's aggregation. So original reporting will normally feature on our website, but also sometimes feature in featured stories and then link out to the website.
Every Sunday edition I'll say, the featured story is original reporting- Mm-hmm... and we'll link out to our website.
But, um, future state, I'd love to get to a p- position where we're doing a lot more of that reporting.
But we realize where we're sitting right now, that our core focus is, is more aggregation, in particular for the daily email series. Picking what you aggregate or what to report on- Mm...
um, besides, like, this is a positive story, what's the criteria that determines whether or not it's a good fit for Nice News specifically? Yeah, great question. So pretty early on we realized that there is a gray area.
Like, it's not our subscribers, it's gonna be impossible to please everyone. Yeah.
It's gonna be impossible for every single person who's reading Nice News to consider every single story that I include [chuckles] in Nice News nice or positive news. So
we - understanding that, we kinda tried to create a framework that allows us- Mm... to understand, like, when something feels like, oh, this is perfect for...
Like, this is a Nice News story, or maybe this doesn't actually fit.
And I think we're asking ourselves certain questions, and by no means are we, like, uh, currently asking ourselves all these questions for every piece that we're choosing, but we created the framework so that it kind of, like, is- Mm...
ingrained within the editorial team when they're curating. Um, questions like, does this, uh, does this piece of content make me feel more optimistic about the world?
Like, does this piece of content, um, help others feel more connected to each other, um, or more inspired or, um, more connected to the planet as a whole?
And they're the kind of these set of questions that allow us to determine, like, ideally, the greater majority of our subscribers are gonna consider this to be nice, and, like, this is why they will consider it to be nice- Mm...
and also why we wanna include it in the daily email because we think it can create a greater impact and is relevant for our subscribers to read. That's really interesting. Like, what I'm...
My takeaway from that was that it's about, like, this is about relationships between people.
Like, a, a, a Nice News story is about, like, people interacting in a positive way or people interacting with, with the world in a positive way. Uh, so I'd love to hear more about the, the curatorial program.
So my understanding- Mm... is you have, like, four, uh, maybe freelance curators, I think they're somewhere on the other side of the world, uh- Yeah... and they are browsing, like, 100 different news sources every day.
I, I would love to hear anything else you have to say about the c- the curatorial program. Yeah.
So we implemented this relatively early on, not necessarily with the intention of keeping it forever, but it's actually worked out really well, where we have four curators that are based in the Philippines.
And based on the hours that they're working, they're basically sourcing content overnight for us- Mm... where our editorial team wakes up in the morning and then has... It's basically that initial filtering of news.
So they have a list of publications that they're referencing. In total, a- across the four curators, it's around, like, maybe 100, 120, um, total, um, outlets that they're referencing.
And they will provide to us through Airtable a variety and submit stories for then our editorial team to then look through. So our editorial team is, of course, still looking at, at- Yeah...
news stories, making sure that we're not missing anything. But it really is helpful to have that kind of initial database of content to select from, um, and then filter down further.
And the editorial team's probably spending around, like, an hour, an hour and a half, like, in addition to the meeting, determining what we're including in the daily email.
So it just, it saves time having that initial process- Yeah... um, through those curators. No, that makes a lot of sense.
Um, okay, a second ago you were talking about, like, you know, it's about mitigating the, like, most of our subscribers will probably like this story, and that's part of what, you know, determines whether or not you pick one.
Uh, I would love to hear more about the audience.
So everything I know about the audience is, uh, last time you said the number publicly, it was 750,000, um, and that it skewed female and older than average, but that you were more concerned with psychographics than demographics.
Um, I'd love to hear you- Mm... speak more, like, about who this audience is, how you guys think about them. Yeah, definitely. So currently we're at 820,000 subscribers.
In terms of metrics, our open rate hovers around kinda mid-50 percent, mid to low 50s. Um, and- Very good for that size. Yeah. We've, we've... I will say, we also filter out a good number of people. Mm.
So we have, like, a flow for cold subscribers where if you haven't- Yeah... opened an email in a certain amount of time, you're gonna get a dedicated email asking if you're still interested in receiving Nice News.
You're also gonna get a section on the top of the, the daily edition that's gonna request you to click if you still wanna receive Nice News. I'm sure a lot of your, um, listeners are familiar with- Mm... that approach.
But we are pretty, like, adamant about having what we have a process in place to- Yeah... filter out people who are not, [laughs] not engaging- But the fact that you're still-... because we wanna maintain those numbers.
Yeah... 820- Yeah... is insane. Yeah. Yeah, and yeah, we've gone through kinda, like, waves of growth and then, like, waves of [laughs] like- Yeah...
maintaining a similar number be- because of the fact that we're filtering out people. Um, so yeah. And then in terms of click-through rate, we're a little over 4%. I mean, it depends on the email.
Sometimes it'll be 3%, sometimes 5%. Um, and then, yeah, in terms of demographics, we skew slightly older, 86% of our au- audience is over 35. Mm.
And, um, also skew slightly female, 68% of our audience is female, 32% male.And we have, like you said, psychographics is really important to us 'cause I don't think we're only targeting by any means, like middle-aged women.
I think it's just, like, uh, we've been able to cultivate that audience a good amount. But I'll, I'll mention that to someone who is, like a college-age guy- Yeah...
and he'll, like be surprised and be, "Oh, I would've been... No idea that that's your, your core audience." Yeah. And I think our goal is obviously not to just, like preach to a particular demographic.
In terms of psychographics, we're thinking about people who are obviously interested in positive content- Yeah...
potentially interested in health, wellness, like self-empowerment, interested in mental health, interested in, like we talked about, connection to others, interested in like feeling more connected to others.
I think a lot of our stories, um, lean into that. Or maybe the environment, like feeling connected to the, the planet.
Um, or maybe just to what we were talking about earlier, became fed up with, with news in general and wanted an alternative, so, or something to supplement their news source. Yeah. Um, okay.
So, so you were talking about the different topics you, you cover there. And y- I know you revamped the website earlier this year, and I took a look in, in the old way back machine to see what had changed. Mm-hmm.
And what instantly struck me was that the, you know, the list of topics in k- in the masthead had changed. Mm-hmm. So four- Yeah... changed, four stayed the same. I'll read them out. So the ones that- Yeah...
stayed the same were culture, environment, uh, science, and health. Though health used to also be health and wellness. Yeah. Uh, so those stayed the same.
The ones that changed were, um, the ones that left were acts of kindness, animals, everyday heroes, and innovation. Uh, in their place came in humanity, lifestyle, sports, and tech.
Um, and so what stood out to me was it was like, okay, the ones that came in are more like traditional news categories, where the ones that left were these more like stylized, kind of cutesy, um,
takes that were like so pointedly on the nose, Nice News. Um- Mm-hmm... so yeah, I'd love to hear you talk about like why, why these things changed and why it was these specific topics. Definitely.
And I'll say the first ca- set of categories that you referenced, we came up with before even like sending our first daily email. So we- Oh, so they've been around for like two years.
They had been around for a good amount of time. Yeah. Yeah. So over time we got a sense of like what our, both what our audience is engaging with, but also like what direction we wanna take Nice News.
Um, and of course, the, the shift in categories is representative of, um, kind of the direction we wanna take it in the future.
I'll say a lot of, like through our initial research and also just like being familiar with other good news outlets that are out there, a lot of good news can kind of fall into two buckets.
Like it's either very centered around maybe social impact or- Mm-hmm... focused on a particular demographic that, um, tends to not be like super widespread. Um, or it's very feel good.
Like you, you've seen, I'm sure, like social media accounts that are just posting videos that- Mm... are really feel good and it can go viral.
Um, or there are of course like human interest stories you could focus on that are really feel good.
So we definitely cover those stories, both those stories, but we're trying to create a space that is seen as more of a flagship positive news platform that covers a wide variety of content that's both entertaining and informative and uplifting.
So I think that the shift in categories is representative of that, too. That makes sense. Um, I wanna talk about social media. So you were just talking about like these- Yeah...
you know, accounts on social media where these nice news stories can go viral. Um, and I found- Mm-hmm... at least, I mean, there's at least three social media accounts Nice News has. One is...
The biggest one is Instagram. There's 103, 183,000 followers, posts like two or three times per week. Uh, I don't know what the engagement is like. That's hidden. Mm.
There's the Facebook page, which has 37,300 followers. Um, and then I thought, [laughs] I, I thought this was really funny, uh, that there's a Twitter account, but it posts four times a day.
There's 33,000 followers, and almost always zero engagement. Uh, each post though gets around 200, 300 views. But I thought this... [laughs] I'm laughing because it's like this is the antithesis of Twitter.
Twitter is like the antithesis of Nice News- Yeah... of good news. Like, that's [laughs] like the point of... That's how I use Twitter. [laughs] It's doom scrolling. Um, so I thought that was just like so perfect.
Uh, but I [laughs] guess the question is like, tell me about Nice News' relationship with social media and like across these three channels. Yeah. [laughs] I would say it's a very difficult relationship.
No, we, um- [laughs] We... It's not a core focus of ours, I'll say. Yeah. It, it provides value, but it's definitely not a core focus of ours.
Um, we've been able to, and, and Instagram, as you mentioned, is the largest channel that we have. Mm-hmm.
Initially, we've been able to really scale that through leaning into what I mentioned, like viral videos and- Yeah...
um, we realized after a certain point that it wasn't really representative of like what we were [laughs] doing in the inbox. It was just like trying to scale people to watch more positive content, which has- Yeah...
positive impacts, but it just didn't feel like it, um, translated very well, like from social to web or email. So we- Watching like a video of like a puppy- Yeah... and a monkey- Yeah... playing on your- [laughs]...
while you're looking at your phone- Yeah... is like so different than, than like reading an article. Yeah. For sure. And there were some more substantive videos than that, I'll say. Yeah. But it was still- I mean, yeah.
Not to put you on the spot [laughs]... feel good. [laughs] Yeah. Lots of puppies and monkeys. Yeah. Um, we... So yeah, I, I will say that social hasn't...
and even regardless, as we were scaling that, it was very difficult to move people, like move followers from Instagram to, um, to be subscribers on our website.
And I think that part of the reason maybe was because of the disparity there. But, um, regardless, social has been, it's been...
I'll say it's, has been helpful to some degree in that like it's helpful to have a number that someone can reference, in particular for sales and partnerships, for like we're partnering with a brand and they hear 800,000 subscribers, but they can't see that number.
[laughs] So like- It's validating... maybe they look us up, they see our... Yeah, it's validating. They see our... And also potentially we can do a collaboration and do it like multi-platform.
We'll do something on social, also do something on web and email. Um, so-It's helpful to have, and we've, we've leaned into it. Um, but I will, I will say we could definitely have a more defined - Yeah... strategy.
Not even just necessarily a strategy, more of a focus there than we do right now. It's, it's a little bit more kind of like in the background. Doesn't seem like you really need it- Yeah... though, to be honest, right?
[laughs] Yeah. Um. Yeah. Okay. So we should talk about, about growth. So you said you're at about 820,000 now. Um, my understanding of how you've grown, uh, was kind of three things.
Uh, one, it was cross-pollination with the other Optimism media products at the beginning. Uh, and then there's been giveaways, and there's paid ads. Um, so that's what... That's all I know. Tell me the growth story.
Definitely, yeah. Those are three of the larger buckets, but I will say there are definitely more buckets, too.
Um, for cross-pollination, that was one of our earliest tactics, and, um, it's not as much of a core tactic currently, but it's helped us really scale to the, to the point- Mm-hmm... that we're at right now.
And we've done a variety of approaches for cross-pollination in terms of introducing subscribers on other Optimism brands to Nice News, whether that's, like, finding ways to incorporate Nice News articles, linking out to Nice News, up converting those people to subscribe, or doing dedicated campaigns centered around Nice News and then, um, getting subscribers through that, those means.
Um, in terms of, um... You mentioned giveaways.
In terms of giveaways, we've done collaborative giveaways with a variety of newsletters and larger publications as well, where we'll share subscribers through a platform called Dojo Mojo. Um, that's a little bit less...
We, we go through waves with that. I, I would say, like, on average maybe once a month. It's not, like, currently a massive, um, growth channel of ours. And- Mm-hmm...
with the caveat that you really have to filter out those people.
So, um, you have to put them through a cold subscriber flow relatively quickly because if they're not engaging, then you want them out because it can compromise deliverability. Yeah.
So it also works really well for newsletters that are more generic, and Nice News is pretty generic and can target a, a really wide audience. If you have a niche newsletter, I would definitely not recommend that.
Um, Facebook ad campaigns have been successful for us thus far. We're start, just starting really to scale that more and lean into that. Oh.
And I see that as, like, more of a, a future growth channel of ours in terms of it being, like, the majority of our subscribers are coming from that. Um, but it's been successful. We've done...
In terms of campaigns, we really lean into kind of the angle of that 1440 utilizes for, um, like, non-partisan news or unbiased news- Yeah...
but more so, like, negative news versus positive news and kind of creating that comparison, utilizing memes, utilizing visuals to be able to create that comparison.
Um, it's been successful thus far, and I think that, I will say in terms of conversions, it's always more successful when you are able to kind of present what it is that, like, Nice News is within that visual or within the text rather than just, like, sparking interest through a viral meme and getting someone to click, but then they don't convert or they don't engage.
So, like, trying to find that balance in terms of CPA, but also, um, presenting what it is that you're actually offering to make sure that they understand what they're signing up for. Yeah.
So I, I was looking at your, I was looking at your Facebook ad library, and one that really struck me- Mm-hmm... um, which i- it is very much this visualization.
Uh, and there's like a, a couple dozen ads, but this was the only one with this exact visual messaging. So it was, like, a kind of a healthy... A, a, a delicious looking orange slice, and then a moldy orange slice. Yeah.
And the delicious one was obviously Nice News, and it said the benefits. Uh, and then the moldy orange slice was like... It was framed as TV news.
Um, and the TV news makes you negative, makes you stressed, and breeds pessimism, which I think I... Was what was on my mind when I saw that was, like, the audience skewing older. I was like, "Well, of course."
Like- Mm... TV news viewers, viewership, uh, skews older and also skews more on Facebook. Um, so it makes sense- Mm... that this is a messaging. Uh, but it was like...
I mean, there was like one ad unit of a couple dozen. Um- Mm. But yeah, I just thought that was really interesting how you were framing it as an antidote to TV news in general. Mm. Yeah.
We [laughs] It's funny, I knew you were gonna mention that ad.
[laughs] We, um, we reframed that ad actually a little bit where, uh, we decided not to, like, call out specific news sources [laughs] because also we're sourcing from those. Um- Yeah...
and it feels a little bit like, um, like we're not trying to attack anyone by any means. Um- Yeah... so w- I think at one point we said, like, "regular news," or we said "TV news."
So I think TV news is maybe just a little bit shorter, so it's been performing better. Cool. Yeah. But, um- Because I think that is like... I mean, like- And it's understandable, too. Yeah.
That's like a shorthand that many people use where it's like you watch news on TV and it's, "Oh, it's all bad," blah, blah, blah, it's bad, et cetera.
Uh, which to me, I only know that as a shorthand 'cause I've, like, never watched TV news in my life, but it's like I get what that means, right? Yeah. Totally. It's weird. It's understandable. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.
Yeah. Um- Yeah, that, that approach has worked well in terms of comparison. Mm-hmm. Yeah. Uh, so I guess, like, it... My oth- my other guess is it has to be a lot of word of mouth growth, right?
Because I think Nice News- Yeah... in general, a lot of the stories on here seem like something that, like, 20 years ago my aunt would have forwarded me, and it's like I'm the 73rd email in a forwarding chain.
So I'm, have to imagine that kind of thing is happening a lot here, yeah? Definitely, yeah. Yeah, a good number of subs- our subscribers have come from, from sharing, from forwarding emails or social sharing.
Um, yeah, I mean, we're trying to lean into that a little bit further and starting to kinda, like, test out campaigns, like referral campaigns, one-off referral campaigns- Mm-hmm... to incentivize subscribers.
But really I will say that, like, if your product isn't fantastic, like, people aren't gonna share it. So it's, it oftentimes it's also, like, certain stories that we feature.
So a lot of the stories that we feature can spark emotion in our subscribers and be really, like, uplifting obviously. So- Mm-hmm...
when they feel good and they feel really connected to the story, they're that much more likely to share it with someone. It's all about human connection. Um- Yeah, exactly.
[laughs] Is there like a specific type of story? Or like, I don't know if it... Like of... I'm looking at the masthead here, the culture, environment, health, humanity, lifestyle- Mm... science, sports, tech. Like it...
I don't know. Is there a specific, like, topic of story or like-Something deeper than topic that's like, you know, something like more of like a, a type of story. I don't know. What's most popular?
What do people like the most? Mm. Yeah. Honestly, it really does vary. I think there are times more like, "All right, we know this story's gonna perform really well." And then sometimes stories, certain stories- Yeah...
surprise us. It can be just, like, stories that people would deem as, like, more major news. It could be stories that are a little bit more feel good. A, a lot of health and wellness stories can do well. Um. Mm-hmm.
'Cause it's like news you can use. We'll have... Yeah, totally. It feels really applicable to them. They wanna learn more. Um. Mm-hmm.
And oftentimes we're really just looking at clicks here, so we're seeing, like, when people wanna click to learn more- Yeah... than what's included within the email.
Or depending on the section, just, um, click to learn anything. It's like an odds and ends or, uh, in other news. But- Mm. Um, yeah, it does vary.
I mean, we've had certain stories like on the environment click, um, exceptionally well, and, like, culture as well. Yeah.
Uh, how about like not just about topics, but, you know, testing all the different pieces of this, the design topics, uh, you know, time you were sending, whatever. I'm curious about, like- Mm...
the first six months scrap heap. Like, what were some of the- Mm... things that failed across any part of the, the business or the format of the newsletter? What was not working in those first six months? Mm. Yeah.
So in terms of A/B testing, like from the beginning, we were like A/B... Doing a five-part subject line test, and we would get a sense- Mm... of like what people were engaging with based on our subject lines.
So, like, we would even test, like, like the intro text. We would test all of the featured articles. Mm. We would, like, play with the formatting, et cetera.
Um, so we got a sense, like, just through engagement what people were the most interested in pretty quickly. But we really didn't like, like as I mentioned, like drastically adjust the format of the email- Yeah...
because we wanted people to become accustomed to that format. So, like, we would test out a few different sections here and there, but we really were, were pretty consistent with the format of the emails- Mm...
just because we wanted to like create that habit and, like, understanding of the subscriber as to what they should expect in their inbox. Um, so it was a little bit more kinda like the content that we were testing.
Um, maybe on, on occasion, like CTAs or, or images- Yeah... if we're, if we weren't doing a subject line test. That makes sense. Yeah.
Um, we haven't really talked much about monetization yet, and like whether or not- Mm... I have to ima- This seems certainly like a profitable enterprise to me. Uh, having that many subscribers and- Mm...
having had that, like, early boost to gain subscribers. Um, I think you monetize through sponsored issues. Um, maybe there's some partnerships, some web ads. Um, yeah- Sure... what's like the full range of the...
What are the revenue streams for the business? And, like, how... If you are profitable, can you share, like, how long you've been profitable? Yeah, definitely. We are profitable.
We became profitable in November of last year, but I will say that we scaled, like from September of last year through this summer, we've more than doubled revenue just because we've been really focused on sales, or in particular I've been focusing a lot on sales- Without increasing costs as well?
... and sales partnerships. Um, yeah. With-without- Wow... significantly increasing costs. Yeah, yeah. We brought on board the director of partnerships, but, um, not drastically, um, uh, increasing costs.
Um, the greater majority of our revenue, like over 90% of our revenue, is generated in the inbox, which isn't surprising. That's our core product. And we... It's through, um, partnerships with, with brands, of course.
So we have- Yeah... the format that everyone's familiar with. The logo and query- Sponsorship ad... pop in the header. The primary sponsorship. Mm. Yeah. So we have a primary sponsorship under the first featured story.
We added in our evolution that you referenced in, in March, a secondary sponsorship placement. So that's really helped us, like, monetize even further the daily email.
And then sometimes we'll monetize, um, products as well, um, like in the Something We Love section or Odds and Ends.
But most of the time, like the greater majority of our revenue is from the primary and secondary sponsorship slots within the email. Um, working directly with brands or working through agencies. Mm-hmm. That makes sense.
Um, is there like... I don't know. Are there any, like, wildcard m- revenue streams- Mm... or, like, experiments that you are working on- Mm... that you can share? Or like dreaming of doing- Yeah...
in the next six month... I don't know. You know, something in, on the horizon. Yeah. I'm trying to [laughs] I'm trying to not complicate it for Kenny [laughs] 'cause he just came on board recently. Yeah.
[laughs] But, um, our core focus right now is to further monetize our email, um- Mm-hmm... as, like, best we can.
Obviously, work more directly with brands and, um, charge rates that are in line with the value that we're providing. And, uh, really in terms of our inventory, like, we're already in a really good position.
I think that, like, we can slowly increase our rates further, um, like looking at Q4.
Um, but as we continue to kinda trend in that direction, we're also thinking about a little bit of kinda like the News@ model in terms of like the types of stories that we could be producing for brands in collaboration with brands.
Mm. Maybe there are brands that have certain, like, corporate social responsibility initiatives or just even initiatives that...
or angles that they're not sure that, like what the story is there, that we can kinda collaborate with them and create the story for them and bring it to light.
Um, and the goal there is to obviously have, like, corporations be doing more good in the world - Yeah...
but also to bring those initiatives to light and feel like we're, um, showcasing those initiatives in a really unique way. So- That makes a lot of sense...
we've, we've done that with a couple brands, but I think we can lean into that even further and do, like, full-fledged pieces on it and featured stories when it feels like it's a good fit. Mm-hmm.
Um, I would love, like, your advice on, I don't know, monetization and turning a newsletter into a sustainable business maybe for two types of people. One, for, like, early stage operators. Like, maybe like w- Mm.
Let's start there, and then I'll get to the next question, but, like, when is it... When- Mm. I don't know. You can't really, you can't really start monetizing from zero unless you're like a famous person.
Uh, but yeah, for like early stage operators, how should people be thinking about monetization? Mm. Yeah, definitely.
So I will say even for us, I mean, we didn't have a ton of resources early on, and early on I wasn't focusing a lot of my efforts on like actually likeDoing outreach and direct sales. Mm-hmm.
I shifted that focus last year. Um, so there are resources out there. I mean, even thinking about, like, the Beehive Network. Yeah. Like, there are networks out there.
And beyond that, a lot of agencies that, um, you can get in touch with that support with inventory, even if you have a smaller reach, um, if you're thinking about, like, CPC inventory in particular. Yeah.
Um, probably more difficult if you're looking at, like, performance and CPA, but- Which is where you've been. CPM... I think CPC still. Yeah. Um, CPM. Yeah, yeah. Yeah. So, um, but still, I mean, if you have...
As you start to scale, there's, there's more opportunity for you to, like, get in front of those brands and ultimately create relationships and do something on a flat fee basis, even if those flat fees are a little bit lower and charge a flat rate.
I think it's definitely possible, or there are other agencies that, in terms of streamlining the approach, if you don't have the bandwidth, there are agencies that can still sell for you on a flat rate.
So, like, maybe you bring onboard one or two agencies that really, like, prioritize your newsletter so you're not having to spend all of your time on sales- Yeah...
and partnerships, and that can help you, like, focus on, on other things that are important. Um, so yeah, I mean, I would say, like, obviously focusing on monetizing the inbox is, is the most important.
So figuring out what approach.
If you're thinking about sales and partnerships in particular, I think depending on the newsletter, if it's more niche, I think a premium model probably would work better, where you have some sort of, like, trying to up convert people to pay.
Um, I think for Nice News, that just wasn't the angle that we decided to take. We don't wanna kind of paywall, um, positive news content. I think there still is- That makes sense...
an opportunity for it in the future, but- Mm... where we're sitting right now, it's, it's more partnerships with brands. Yeah. Um, this is... I don't know. This might be a strange question to answer, but, like,
what would you really not recommend? Like, what's not the way to build a sustainable newsletter business? Like, I, I, I don't know. Mm.
I don't know if you [laughs] have, like, a clear answer to that, but what would you just, like, do not do XYZ? Yeah. I mean, it's kind of getting at, like,
the fact that there, there are a lot of newsletters out there, I'll say, and if you're launching a newsletter just to launch a newsletter, like, make sure that you have, like, a defined direction- Yeah...
and a distinct approach to your newsletter.
And there are a lot of just, like, curation newsletters of my favorite things, and I, I think that there's value there if you, maybe you have a, a great audience already and you're trying to bring those people over to email.
Mm-hmm.
But, um, having a distinct direction I think is really important, and a core product that obviously resonates with an audience that people are coming back to and provides enough value for people to come back to every single day.
I think it's easy to get caught up in, like, everything else we're talking about in terms of growth and monetization- Yeah... and, like, not be thinking about, like, your core product. The actual product, yeah.
[laughs] What it is you're... Yeah. [laughs] Yeah. What it is that... The value that you're providing and the reason that you're actually going to be able to scale and create a business out of your newsletter. Yeah.
This... I mean, that makes me think of the person you brought, right before we started recording, one of the older Creator Spotlights, Haya Kailani, who like, she has a curation newsletter.
And a- again, like you said, everyone wants to do, like, "Oh, here are the things I like. Let me, you know, tell you about them. Let me send you them [laughs] in an email every week," or whatever.
But, like, hers works because it's about long form YouTube content. And, like, you know- Yeah...
you go to The, The New York Times or Vulture or, like, any website and they'll have, like, "Here are the 50 things you should stream on Netflix this week. Here are the 50 things you should stream on Hulu this week."
Nobody is doing, "Here are the five things you should go watch on YouTube that are, like, long form things."
So it's like, she was watching those, and it worked to start a newsletter about this because, like, people wanted to watch those and nobody was tell... Like, only the algorithm on YouTube was telling them what to watch.
Um, so I don't... I mean, I, I guess I'm just reiterating your point. Like, only curate something- Yeah... if, like, you don't know of anybody else or, like, y- maybe not too many people also curating that thing.
Like, nobody needs another person curating, like, links from The New Yorker and New York Mag and New... Like, Casey Lewis and Emily Sundberg. Like, this, people doing this so well already. Um- Yeah... yeah, I don't know.
Off my soapbox now. It's true. [laughs] Um, yeah.
[laughs] I guess, so this is always kind of a tricky question, um, because nobody wants to put a ceiling on things, but I'm, I'm always curious, like, what you, what people think.
Like, what, what do you think the ceiling of this business is? Um, maybe in terms of like... Uh, you could sp- think of it through revenue or through audience growth.
Maybe audience growth is, like, more of a easier way to put it. Like, what's the... Where can this audience top out? And again, I'll put, like, a qualifier on it. Mm. Like, the thing evolves.
You know, maybe you have a, start, like, a video, et cetera. But, like, as a newsletter in the model it currently is, what is the upper limit of where this can grow, do you think? Yeah.
I, I mean, we're looking to newsletters who have been able to reach mass market. Not even necessarily mass market, but large scale already, like a 1440 with millions of subscribers. Yeah.
And we see that as, like, a definite possibility for Nice News, and they're continuing to scale. So I think that obviously by no means do they see, like, that they're, they've reached their cap. Yeah. Um, so I think,
I think it's also important to, like, think about, like, reach on other platforms where, like, everyone has an email address and you see- Yeah...
Instagram accounts that have, like, tens of millions, like hundreds of millions [laughs] of followers. So it's like we're, we are centered on, like, positive news, targeting a US audience or a US and Canada audience.
So, like, we're not... It's not global, but there's- Mm... there are obviously, like, millions of people that we can reach that would be interested in nice news.
So I think that, like, the scale is however many people [laughs] we're able to reach that are genuinely interested in nice news in the US- Yeah... [laughs] and Canada.
Or, I mean, we have international subscribers as well, but, um, yeah, I think there's, it, there's a lot of opportunity to, to scale from there. I'll say that. Yeah. No, that makes sense.
Um, okay, just a couple more questions. One, um, I, I wish I had a less punny word to use here, but, uh, what are you most optimistic about right now in the, in the newsletter industry? Hmm.Like, I guess maybe...
Or bullish would be maybe another way to put that. Hmm. I mean, I guess I'm bullish in that, like I mentioned, the potential for scale. I think that that makes me excited, just, like, thinking about the fact that
there are a lot of newsletters out there, and obviously some have, have gotten a lot of traction and scale. But there, there are a lot more that I think can- Yeah...
further scale, and just, like, the opportunity for scale really excites me. I think it also excites me, kind of t- to our earlier point, in terms of, like, the types of newsletters that are out there.
There are a lot of newsletters in, like, similar spaces. And, like, starting to explore different types of spaces I think is a lot of fun.
Like, thinking about newsletters around lifestyle or style and clothing, thinking about newsletters around, like, home and garden- Mm-hmm...
more newsletters around, like, health or wellness and games, like we were talking about. I think it's, it feels like there's... It still feels relatively untapped, and that excites me in that, like- Yeah...
there are so many different approaches that you can take for an email as a medium to engage with content. And, like, email I think will continue to evolve over time, too, which is pretty exciting. So, um, yeah.
Lots of exciting things. [laughs] Yeah. No, I, I think one way I think about it is, like, like a lot of the more indie creators who are maybe, like, freelance journalists I talk to, who, they just... They, like...
They... Maybe they make a little money from it, but it's, like, enough to pay the rent, like, from the newsletter, but not a ton.
I think of them, and so many others, as, like, just columnists on the newsletter internet, and, like, the newsletter internet being this, like, disparate thing where it's like that's the point and the appeal is that it's distributed.
But, like, that it's, like, for, um, for readers to, like, put together, piece together their own, like, newspaper, as it were, in their inbox that comes to them as, like, columns every week or every day.
Um, and that's, like... I don't know.
I think within that, and thinking of it in that framework, is kinda what you're saying too, where it's like what are the, like, open gaps in, you know, such and such newsletter subscriber's newsletter in their inbox that, like, to create their newspaper, um, is, like, the place- Yeah...
look for opportunity. Um, q- the other side of this question, though, is, like, what gives you pause or worry? Like, what keeps you up at night about th- you know- Hmm... working in this industry maybe? Hmm.
I mean, in terms of pause or worry, I think it was mentioned at, like, the newsletter conference.
I can't remember who mentioned it, but it was like there's not a newsletter bubble, but there's, like, a bad or a crappy newsletter bubble. I think it's more so, like, pause for people who are, like...
Just think that they can do it because, like, there's opportunity in newsletters or aren't, like, fully committed to, um, creating a product that's, that's filling a gap like we've been talking about. Yeah.
Um, I think pause or worry for me personally, I... They're still, like, in the back of my mind. Like, why has there been no positive news platform that has gained mass market traction? [laughs] Like- Yeah...
in our initial surveys, like, 81% of people weren't familiar with any positive news source. And the one that some people were familiar with, like 13%, was Upworthy, which is more kind of feelgood content. Mm-hmm.
So it's like, is... I think we're proof that obviously there's a market for it. Yeah. There are people, right, you know, 1,000 people that are r- reading or receiving nice news every morning.
But still in the back of my mind I'm like, "Are we gonna be able to combat, like, this sort of inherent, like, negativity bias that we all, like, as humans, like, have?" [laughs] Yeah.
It's like we're trying to counter this, like, evolutionary bias that we have, and it's difficult.
So I think there's, there's still, like, like in the back of my mind this sort of, like, concern that, like, are we gonna be able to succeed in our, our, our goal here? Yeah. It's...
I, I figured the way you're talking about it's like, I think there's the desire to laugh, but there's, like, the need to cry, right? And, like, that's what you're- Mm.
That's, like, that's what you're dealing with is, like, people still need to cry. But it's like, I mean, to... That's, like, a dramatic way of putting it. But again, going back to what we were saying earlier- Sure...
it's like well, they can... That's fine that there's, like... There's plenty to, to... There's plenty that's bad in the world and plenty of places to go see it. So it's like as long as you can situate yourself...
I, like, I'm looking right here at your About page. Like, you use the word safe spa- It's a safe space to catch up on uplifting news. So it's like, again, that rest stop metaphor, that, like, that glass of water.
Um, I don't know. Anyways, um, I don't have any more questions. I think this is a great place to end it. [laughs] Uh, so I guess if anyone is interested in catching up on some nice news, you can go to nicenews.com.
Um, Sean, thank you for joining. And, uh, yeah, this has been the Creator Spotlight podcast, and I will be here again next week. Thank you. [outro music]