WEBVTT 1 00:00:00.100 --> 00:00:08.180 Welcome back to the Creator Spotlight podcast. Today's guest is Cole Durocher. He is a designer with a lot of different skill sets. 2 00:00:08.220 --> 00:00:19.980 I believe his main focus is product design these days, but he also does brand work, motion graphics, web design. Years ago, probably still, he was doing leatherwork, uh, so, you know, physical, digital. He does it all. 3 00:00:20.070 --> 00:00:28.720 He's on the pod because he produces one of the most slickly designed newsletters I know called Today in Design, which is exactly what it sounds like, a daily design newsletter. 4 00:00:28.760 --> 00:00:39.420 It's aggregation, minimal commentary, beautiful package. Cole, thanks for coming on. Uh, thank you for that, like, fantastic introduction. Um, and yeah, you've done your homework. 5 00:00:39.480 --> 00:00:49.000 I wasn't expecting leatherwork to come up in today's conversation. It's at the bottom of your Instagram, the bottom of your, of your Tumblr. That's where I found it. Yeah, you're right. It is. I just, I can't escape it. 6 00:00:49.780 --> 00:00:49.940 Yeah. 7 00:00:50.240 --> 00:01:03.100 So I'm curious how you actually got into design because when I look at your LinkedIn, you initially went to university for, uh, international business, and then you got a BA in film studies, so that starts to make sense. 8 00:01:03.120 --> 00:01:18.920 But yeah, how did like, where and why do, do those paths branch out towards what you do today? Um, yeah. So, I don't know, in high school, I was very, like, math was like my best subject, but I'd always been creative. 9 00:01:19.800 --> 00:01:28.630 Um, and in high school, I just wanted to make lots of money, so I thought the best way to do that would be to study business and learn Chinese. And 10 00:01:29.740 --> 00:01:40.870 yeah, first year, university was going well, um, but then accounting came up, and I just- [coughs]... couldn't like reconcile how you, like, categorize things- Mm-hmm... 11 00:01:40.920 --> 00:01:44.050 which I've been exposed to it now, and it makes a lot more sense. 12 00:01:44.180 --> 00:01:55.120 But, um, yeah, it was a real, like, hurdle for me to like wrap my head around it, and then I just didn't go to class, and- [laughs] The, uh, irony is my dad's an accountant. Mm-hmm. 13 00:01:55.130 --> 00:02:04.280 Um, so I ended up switching courses and, and taking a, a little bit of a break just to figure out like what I wanted to do. I had always loved film, loved movies. 14 00:02:04.640 --> 00:02:11.039 Um, it was like the one thing I knew the most about and was like always spending time either watching or learning about. 15 00:02:11.080 --> 00:02:20.800 And so, uh, figured just, you know, I was gonna go back and wanted to get something, some sort of piece of paper, and so- [laughs]... uh, went back for film studies. 16 00:02:20.900 --> 00:02:35.620 And yeah, uh, it was kinda close to the end of that that I wasn't really sure what I was gonna do with it. So in terms of like how I came on to design, I was coming to the end of film studies. 17 00:02:35.740 --> 00:02:52.420 I wasn't sure what I was gonna do to sort of make money with it, but I kinda wanted to work in film and was exploring this sort of acting thing, and then came across design as being like this super flexible thing that I could do, um, if I needed to, like, go to auditions and stuff. 18 00:02:52.740 --> 00:03:02.100 Mm-hmm. Um, this is totally random. I haven't thought about this in a long time. Um- That's why we do this. But yeah, and so like I, I, I had always drawn as a kid. I had always done stuff. 19 00:03:02.380 --> 00:03:07.810 You know, some friend's baseball teams needed a logo for their jerseys, so like I did that. Mm-hmm. 20 00:03:07.880 --> 00:03:18.120 And so I started to really like enjoy that process of like sitting down with them, understanding like what their sort of goals or what they were trying to like emulate were, and then like coming up with drafts. 21 00:03:18.160 --> 00:03:34.359 And so, um, yeah, I pirated an Adobe Creative Suite. I don't think you- I feel like probably like 100%, maybe 99% of designers, like that's how they got, pirated Adobe in like the 2000s. Totally, like 100%. 22 00:03:34.460 --> 00:03:47.480 I would not- I had it... be here if, like, if I didn't torrent, so. Yeah. Um, yeah, I did that, and then like went on Envato for tuts+ and just like ran through tutorials and picked up some odd jobs on Craigslist. 23 00:03:47.540 --> 00:04:00.940 My first job was like a $250 paying gig, and I had to design like 50 dress templates for this startup- That's-... out of Montreal here in Canada. Super random, but- That's amazing... um, yeah. 24 00:04:00.970 --> 00:04:09.200 So that kinda like got me interested in it, and then I, I got into a digital design program in Vancouver, uh, before I graduated my undergrad. 25 00:04:09.300 --> 00:04:18.920 Um, and from there it was like a condensed program where you do like motion graphics, web design, app design, branding, all sorts of things- Yeah... 26 00:04:18.950 --> 00:04:29.300 um, to sort of give you a, a taste of what you might be interested in, and then it all culminates around this big grad project where you choose a discipline and you come up with an idea. 27 00:04:29.920 --> 00:04:38.420 And so I had this idea to create like a Nike FuelBand for dogs. [laughs] And so it was like super fun. 28 00:04:38.720 --> 00:04:47.700 Uh, I, I like went through the full process of like research to like concepting and modeling in 3D and creating like promotional material. 29 00:04:48.680 --> 00:04:59.720 Um, and then that project just ended up getting really well received, and I landed a job, uh, right after at a startup in Vancouver. Um- Nice. Yeah, that was kind of- That was, that was at Unbounce, right? 30 00:05:00.180 --> 00:05:02.350 That was at Unbounce, correct. Yeah. Yeah, yeah. Yeah. Yeah. 31 00:05:02.380 --> 00:05:22.440 It's funny that you like had all these different things going on and like all these different paths and experim- experiments that kind of coalesced to where you are now because when I was researching you and like looking back both at the newsletter and then, like I said, looking at your Tumblr, your Instagram, there's these really distinct like aesthetic chapters, um, that I think o- you know, overarchingly like all make sense together. 32 00:05:22.520 --> 00:05:34.480 But like, there's these moments, and like I think a hallmark of a good designer is that they're really opinionated, right? Because you need to like make the decisions, like not do everything at once. 33 00:05:34.560 --> 00:05:42.440 You need to like have these limits. Um, so I don't know, like that's not something everybody has, and plenty of good designers don't have that. 34 00:05:42.900 --> 00:05:53.960 Uh, but I really admire people who like are really good at like locking in and having that point of view. Is this like, is this something you like consciously develop- I don't know, like where does that come from? 35 00:05:54.000 --> 00:06:01.870 Yeah, I don't know. Like when I look back at all those things you mentioned, like there's a lot of artistic expression in that aside from just design. Yeah. 36 00:06:01.880 --> 00:06:15.204 And so like a lot of it was just for me of things that I thought were cool and like hopefully other people think they're cool too.And then, yeah, some of that was more design where I'm thinking about a broader audience, not just myself, more objectively. 37 00:06:15.984 --> 00:06:29.564 Um, and so yeah, I think it can-- it's definitely developed. Um, but I remember, like, the first things I was designing at design school, and they were, like, embarrassingly bad. Yeah. Well, they have to be. Um, 38 00:06:30.744 --> 00:06:41.193 yeah, I just... I, I had-- There's this, like, delta between you can have good taste, but you're not, might not have the skill set or expertise- Mm... to sort of realize that level of taste. Yeah. 39 00:06:41.204 --> 00:06:52.924 And so, like, I think back to those days and, like, I was super proud of the stuff that I was making, but if I let it sit for a couple weeks and came back to it, I would be like, "This is awful." Yeah. 40 00:06:52.964 --> 00:06:59.244 Like, "This is nowhere-" It was really moldy when you let it sit. Yeah. Yeah. I don't know. I would look at, like, other peers in my class of what they were doing- Mm... 41 00:06:59.254 --> 00:07:09.444 and just, like, I'd see, you know, how much more I had to do, um, to really come out with a polished product. And so yeah, I think that's part of it. 42 00:07:09.604 --> 00:07:21.044 And I, like, knowing the tools I do think is super helpful because- Mm... you d- you can get lost in that flow state and you're not, like, stuck trying to figure things out. Like- Yeah... 43 00:07:21.054 --> 00:07:30.404 you can more easily bring your idea into pixels or reality. Mm. Um, yeah. I think. Yeah. I don't know. No, that makes sense. 44 00:07:30.944 --> 00:07:39.884 I, I think that, like, I don't know, the, the, that, like, the delta between taste and execution is, like, one of the hardest things, and can be so discouraging. 45 00:07:39.944 --> 00:07:54.024 Like, I know for me, like, you know, or, like, in my early 20s when I was, like, trying to write, um, I couldn't make myself do it, 'cause I would, I would, I was just stuck on, like, it was that fear of failure and that, like, need for the first draft to be perfect and stuff. 46 00:07:54.124 --> 00:08:05.644 But I don't know, it's such, like, a universal creative, like, I don't know, just, like, self, self-struggle. Um- Yeah, totally. Yeah. So let's get into the newsletter for a little while. 47 00:08:05.984 --> 00:08:16.524 Um, to describe it for anybody listening who hasn't read it before, it's, like, the structure of it as it exists today, it's, it comes every morning on weekdays. Um, it's pretty tight and slick. 48 00:08:16.584 --> 00:08:27.074 Like, I'd kind of describe it as, like, a, a design news espresso. Like, you can just drink it, like, in, like, 30 seconds, um, or you can, you know, kinda linger, uh, and, like, click the links. 49 00:08:27.174 --> 00:08:44.944 And so the, the sections, there's, like, a few linked news items at the top, um, a couple events maybe, maybe online events, whatever, uh, a few links to other articles that might be less newsy, a few more, like, resource-oriented links, um, and then a few GIFs or images, usually GIFs, uh, JIFs for the... 50 00:08:45.014 --> 00:08:56.924 if you're, if you're cultured, um, of design details. Little, like, things from some product launch or, you know, little details you found that you really like. Um, and that's it. There's not really any commentary. It... 51 00:08:57.104 --> 00:09:09.664 Sometimes there is. Like, there used to be a little more, but these days it's usually just a, a, a single sentence as the caption beneath each of the, um, your likes at the end. So does that... 52 00:09:10.314 --> 00:09:18.014 Uh, th- this, like, design news espresso, does that resonate with you? Yeah, that, that sounds great. Um- [laughs] Sounds delicious. I love coffee. Yeah. 53 00:09:18.104 --> 00:09:32.424 Um, but no, yeah, you kinda nailed it, and that's good to hear that that is coming through. Yeah. Um, okay, so the stats on it, you share these publicly on the sponsor page on the website. Um, so I wrote these down. 54 00:09:32.464 --> 00:09:50.424 I wonder if they're still up to date. Uh, you said you had, uh, 4.5 thousand plus subscribers, a 60.1% open rate, and a 19.1% click rate. This is, this is current? Um, yeah. So la- all time is just below 5,000. 55 00:09:50.584 --> 00:10:05.273 Nice. So I'm five away from 5,000. Five away from 5,000. Wow. By the time this comes out, you'll be past it. Yeah. Well, I hope so. [laughs] Um, open rate is 60.2, and click rate is 18.2. Nice. Wow. Yeah. 56 00:10:05.284 --> 00:10:16.524 That's, all time, that's really good for, like, all time. And so the first one was on August 15th, 2023, right? Uh, I believe so, yes. Mm. Um, and why I say that is... 57 00:10:17.524 --> 00:10:28.784 And we can get more into this, but I, I- Imperfect first drafts. Yeah. I published a couple privately just to prove to myself that I could do it- Yes... before signing up publicly to, hey, I'm doing this thing every day. 58 00:10:28.824 --> 00:10:41.304 Which is totally the way to do it. Yeah. So yeah, I approached this very differently than I approa- approached past projects, so, um- Okay. Well, what do you mean by that? So in the past, um, I... 59 00:10:42.624 --> 00:10:51.224 So, like, Leatherwork is one thing, and that was- Mm... pretty successful for what it was. Um, but I've been- Was that, like, just you doing it for you or did you have, like, a, like, a s- a brand you'd started? 60 00:10:51.424 --> 00:11:01.744 What was the deal? I was just selling through Instagram. Yeah. People would DM me and I would s- mail them baseballs or bags or belts or wallets, like, all sorts of things. So- Yeah... 61 00:11:02.644 --> 00:11:14.444 um, but that really taught me I didn't wanna be in a business where it stops when my hands stop, which is really counter to running a daily newsletter because that is kinda what I'm doing. 62 00:11:14.544 --> 00:11:46.644 But, um, yeah, in the past when I had these side projects or businesses, I would go all in on getting the branding right and getting the design right, and I'd hold it so close to my chest, uh, until I could sort of realize that vision that I had in my mind, until I felt proud enough to share it, which, um, you know, can lead to your s- it, you, it leads you to not wanna share it even longer because you've just spent so much time and you're, it's so personal. 63 00:11:47.384 --> 00:12:01.824 Um, and so I had a number of projects just, like, die because either the momentum was lost after I went on vacation for a couple weeks- Mm... and I didn't have any, like, outside accountability keeping me working on it. 64 00:12:01.924 --> 00:12:19.364 Yeah. Um, or I would go to launch it and I didn't have any network or audience to, like, share it with, and I hadn't done any marketing or, or anything like that. So-With Today in Design, I wanted to sort of build in 65 00:12:20.904 --> 00:12:34.344 consistency, and that's why I chose to do it every weekday. Mm. Um, to sort of build that habit. I didn't even have, like, a brand or anything aside from the name, and so I chose, like, 66 00:12:35.564 --> 00:12:49.384 just an inbox icon for the- Yeah... logo for the longest time. Um, again, just to get it out there and see if it even resonated with people before I go and spend all of that, um, time and energy. Yeah. 67 00:12:49.464 --> 00:12:55.554 And it might not even be something that people want. Yeah. Um- That was... You did that for the first four months. I, I looked. It was... 68 00:12:55.724 --> 00:13:04.744 If it, if, like, the first one was around August 15th, uh, the last time you used that logo was, was December 18th. Okay, yeah. Then- Yeah... yeah, so exactly. 69 00:13:05.024 --> 00:13:16.734 Um, and, like, still, you know, I came up with a new logo and stuff, but I'm always in the back of my mind, like, "Is this the right thing?" Like- Mm-hmm... but I don't have a ton of time to work on it. Yeah. 70 00:13:16.764 --> 00:13:24.384 So it's not, like, my priority. It's kind of off the side of my desk, so- You do a lot... it's really balancing- And you're a father. [laughs] Yeah, exactly, you know? 71 00:13:24.524 --> 00:13:34.534 Um, so it's kind of just balancing what the priorities are and- Mm... and unfortunately, a lot of the time, if we're gonna call this newsletter a business, which I personally don't feel it is- Mm... 72 00:13:34.534 --> 00:13:43.884 I think it's more of a hobby right now, um, I'm spending a lot of time working in the business and not on the business. Just- Yeah... nature of life and priorities, so. 73 00:13:43.944 --> 00:13:51.714 Okay, there's a lot of things I wanna get into there, but first I do wanna talk more about, like, the early design iterations and how it's evolved. I, I think there's, like- Yeah... 74 00:13:51.764 --> 00:14:03.984 kind of two, maybe three major, like, chapters of the design of this newsletter and, like, the concept of it. Um- Yeah... when I was looking back at the earliest ones, uh, from a year ago, they're, like... 75 00:14:04.564 --> 00:14:15.204 Again, you had the, you had the inbox logo, uh, as, as the logo. Um, the title or subject line, I think, was just the day's date. Um, you had a brief intro note, uh, most of the time. 76 00:14:15.284 --> 00:14:23.404 Like, it was a little more of your, uh, voice in it, like, in... I mean, it's all your voice, but in terms of, like, actual words, you know? M- more your commentary. Um- Yeah... 77 00:14:23.424 --> 00:14:31.804 you still had, like, basically all the same sections. A little different maybe. Um, it was a little less, like, tightly designed. It was just one column. 78 00:14:31.964 --> 00:14:37.004 It wasn't like these little, like, broken-up columns, which I think that maybe the feature wasn't out yet in Beehiiv. Um, 79 00:14:38.144 --> 00:14:51.504 and then the V2 I kind of mark as coming after you changed the logo, uh, at, at the end of last year, where you start using this collage of all the images from the day's news, and the cover, um, you use the h- uh, one of the headlines from the day's news as the subject line. 80 00:14:52.004 --> 00:15:00.644 Um, and yeah, now you've got the new animated logo that's, like, just kind of the text Today dot In, um, In Design, or Today In dot Design. Excuse me. 81 00:15:01.204 --> 00:15:08.744 Um, and then if there's a V3, I think it's more like, it's really, like, that's the major change is, like, around then. 82 00:15:08.784 --> 00:15:18.664 But then there's one detail that I really liked when I started subscribing to the newsletter, uh, and you got rid of, which is your green light, yellow light. Okay. Slow news day, fast news day. 83 00:15:19.124 --> 00:15:33.584 Um, so for anyone listening who, who's not a subscriber, um, every day when the newsletter would come in, in my inbox, there'd be a green circle emoji or a yellow circle emoji next to it, and green meant it was a, a fast news day. 84 00:15:34.104 --> 00:15:45.784 Yellow meant it was a slow news day. Um, and you got rid of that, I forget, I think it was in March you got rid of it. Um, why... Uh, were you doing that the whole time from the beginning? 85 00:15:45.964 --> 00:15:53.044 And if s- if not, when did you start using it, and why did you stop using it? I think I had started doing it from the very beginning. 86 00:15:53.984 --> 00:16:02.944 Why I stopped doing it is because it was such a nebulous thing for me to decide- Yeah... whether it was a fast news day or... Like, there wasn't, you know, strict criteria that I was following. 87 00:16:02.984 --> 00:16:11.944 It was kind of just, like, a feeling. Um, and I wasn't sure if it was, like, adding any value to things. Uh, it kind of came out of, 88 00:16:13.024 --> 00:16:20.374 you know, I felt this pressure to, like, come up with the exact same number of things every day. Mm. So s- three news articles, two events, et cetera. 89 00:16:20.984 --> 00:16:29.364 Uh, and some days I wouldn't be able to do that, so I thought that could help communicate that there's just not enough stuff that I thought was relevant- Yeah... enough to share. 90 00:16:29.994 --> 00:16:39.424 Communicate your guilt for not fulfilling the promise to your subscribers. Exactly. Yeah, exactly. Um, so yeah, I, I don't, I, I don't know. 91 00:16:39.484 --> 00:16:44.284 I think I ultimately got rid of it in that, like, most recent iteration 'cause I was just trying to strip- Mm-hmm... 92 00:16:44.364 --> 00:16:56.164 out the unnecessary and really kind of focus it a bit more and group things a bit better and provide some clear distinction between things and, like, style different links differently. Mm-hmm. 93 00:16:56.324 --> 00:17:10.664 So if you're scrolling through, like, there's a bit more, um, yeah, distinction between things and, and you know where you are. But yeah, I got rid of that, and at the same time, I was doing, like, um, Today in History. 94 00:17:10.904 --> 00:17:22.804 Mm. Yeah. So I would try and find something in design history that was happening, and that just felt like I was stretching sometimes, like, just finding things that were, like, design adjacent and, like- Yeah... 95 00:17:22.814 --> 00:17:32.284 shoehorning into the thing. Um- Everything's design. Yeah, exactly, you know? So, um, so that was kind of the decision-making. 96 00:17:32.504 --> 00:17:39.524 A- and then also, also just trying to, like, really optimize how long it takes me to get an issue out. And so if I could shave- Which is kind of, like, the most important thing, right? 97 00:17:39.984 --> 00:17:45.114 Yeah, totally, especially, um, just with where I'm at with it right now. Um, 98 00:17:46.024 --> 00:18:00.144 so yeah, if I could shave off 10 minutes a day of trying to find a relevant history in design, uh, and, you know, write up a little blurb about it, then great. Yeah. I can spend that elsewhere. 99 00:18:00.184 --> 00:18:09.764 So that was kind of, kind of the thinking. And then, uh, the last thing, which you just reminded me of, is the... I share these, like, bento videos on social. Yes. And I... 100 00:18:10.094 --> 00:18:20.018 Those were being received really well, but I felt there was a real disconnect between that visual language and what was in the newsletter, so I really wanted to sort of tie those two things together.Mm. 101 00:18:20.208 --> 00:18:21.268 Which I really like those videos. 102 00:18:21.308 --> 00:18:34.788 They're like, again, to anybody listening to, like visualize it, it's just like a, it's like, yeah, it's like the, you know, a box of an image, you know, usually a horizontally, uh, formatted, landscape formatted, and it's just like, yeah, six or so different things. 103 00:18:34.828 --> 00:18:45.828 Like, the sizes will ch- it's really dynamic and it's, it's fun, it's fun to look at, which I think describes the entire concept of the newsletter. Um, is the reason you stopped adding commentary also just, like, time? 104 00:18:45.868 --> 00:18:51.928 Like, my impression is that the reason the newsletter looks like it does today is because you were like, "Why am I trying to do these things? 105 00:18:52.007 --> 00:19:00.478 Because, like, I think this is what a newsletter is supposed to be, so I'm gonna put in these things," that, like, end up just taking up your time, and you're like, "Why am I doing this?" 106 00:19:00.648 --> 00:19:11.368 So that's why it is this, like, w- kind of lean, this espresso now, where it used to be more of, like, a cortado. Yeah, certainly. Um, I look at it as... 107 00:19:11.408 --> 00:19:20.848 And why I tried to simplify it, too, the same reason, is that I wanted it to be a sort of blank vehicle for the type of stuff that I was sharing. Mm-hmm. 108 00:19:21.568 --> 00:19:25.448 Like, I didn't want it to influence it as much- It's not about you. Yeah, it's not about me. 109 00:19:25.748 --> 00:19:34.028 The whole point is to share what other people in the design community are doing, whether they're writing or podcasting or creating new interactions. 110 00:19:34.068 --> 00:19:43.408 And so that was kind of the main, main motivation behind it, is just to really put the focus on the content and not about me. Like- Mm-hmm... 111 00:19:43.448 --> 00:19:57.108 of course, selfishly for my own personal brand, like, it is published by me and I want it coming from me and everything, and so I still wanted to provide my thoughts as to why I chose certain designs in that inspiration section of, like- Mm-hmm... 112 00:19:57.228 --> 00:20:13.238 what were the elements that popped out to me, and then also act as, like, a journal for me to keep track of, like, what's trending in design and- But you, like, don't need to actually write the commentary for, like, to still accomplish these things you're describing, 'cause it's still, like, just you putting it together. 113 00:20:13.328 --> 00:20:22.528 So, like, you ki- uh, I guess you kind of, like, realized that over time, right? Yeah. Yeah, certainly. Certainly. Yeah. So I think with- Um, and to your point- Go ahead... yes, time, time was- Of the essence... 114 00:20:22.588 --> 00:20:29.428 ultimately the deciding factor of it. Yeah. Yeah. I think with aggregation newsletters, there are, there are so many, right? 115 00:20:29.688 --> 00:20:36.668 Um, I, uh, I mean, Morning Brew has, is, is kind of, you know, the newsletter that launched 1,000- 10,000 newsletters. 116 00:20:36.888 --> 00:20:48.248 Um, and I think a lot of people look at that and they're not, they have original reporting, et cetera, but, like, aggregation is just such an easy way in, and, like, that's kind of how people think of the newsletter format still quite often. 117 00:20:48.328 --> 00:21:05.388 Um, and so I think there's a lot of people who try to aggregate without a point of view or, like, a distinguishing factor other than it's just like, "These are the things I look at, and so I'm gonna give them to you," which can be very interesting and valid when the person has a really good point of view. 118 00:21:05.488 --> 00:21:21.788 Um, but ag- again, this is kind of a long way of saying, like, I like yours because it's really well packaged and, like, feels more intentional even though it is, like, ultimately just, like, a really nice template you built, um, that, like, splits it up in a different way than, like, a, a bulleted list of links. 119 00:21:21.888 --> 00:21:34.428 Um, but my question is, how are you sourcing the content? Like, what is your consumption habit that filters down into this newsletter, and what makes it in versus w- what do you leave out? 120 00:21:34.968 --> 00:21:43.948 I, the process has changed since I started it. Mm. Again, I'm always trying to, like, win back time so I can get them out quicker, uh, but still maintain some level of quality. 121 00:21:44.128 --> 00:21:58.088 So now what I've done is set up a feed, uh, with a bunch of, like, RSS, uh, feeds- Mm. Smart... that I can sort of curate, and I've set them up. I use Feedly. Mm-hmm. 122 00:21:58.328 --> 00:22:12.008 Um, and so through there, you know, you can set up podcasts, you can set up event pages, you can set up, uh, all the different article or blogs or, or most news sites as well. And so that has saved a lot of time of me, 123 00:22:13.168 --> 00:22:25.958 whereas in the past, like, I had a, um, a browser folder, a bookmark folder- Yeah... with, like, all of my news sources that I would command + click through every day and, like, quickly scan- All the tabs... 124 00:22:25.988 --> 00:22:37.738 which was, like, mental looking back on it. But Feedly's, like, saved me a ton of time. And then, uh, TweetDeck Pro or X Pro, whatever you wanna call it. Yeah. Um, I have different lists set up and- X Pro. 125 00:22:37.738 --> 00:22:51.608 I remember that one... yeah, um, lists set up with filters. Um, and then just, like, the way I've set up my Twitter is, like, I come across things throughout the day and, and save them. So- Mm-hmm... 126 00:22:51.708 --> 00:23:05.808 uh, I basically just through spending time online will like things throughout the day, and then when I wake up the next morning and it's time to get a new issue out, I'll go through all my likes and revisit and see what, what I like. 127 00:23:05.948 --> 00:23:10.848 But the sort of selection process is, like, 100% my taste. Like- Yeah... 128 00:23:10.908 --> 00:23:22.388 I try to be objective in what I think is kind of trending with things or what I think would be helpful from what I see, uh- What does, what does ob- objectivity mean in the context of this, though? Yeah, I know. 129 00:23:22.448 --> 00:23:34.488 It's, it's difficult. Um, but maybe it's not necessarily something that I would be super interested in because I already know what this article is about, the subject matter, or, uh, 130 00:23:35.568 --> 00:23:49.768 something I wish I would've known- Yeah... five years ago and it might be helpful to a younger designer who's a subscriber to the... But just tr- trying to keep that sort of lens on. Yeah. Uh- Okay. Wait, quick question. 131 00:23:50.028 --> 00:24:06.548 Um, what is your favorite design news outlet, whether current or no longer operating, whether it's online, whether it's a print product. What is, what's like, what's the pinnacle for you of, like, design news? Um, 132 00:24:07.508 --> 00:24:20.148 yeah, I don't think there was one, and that's- Mm... kinda why I decided to do this. Like, uh, Designer News was this community that was, like, pretty popular in 2012-ish time when I- Mm-hmm... 133 00:24:20.168 --> 00:24:33.452 started in design.Uh, and that with Dribbble, uh, which was the online, like, design community, um, were very different than what they are today. And so I- Mm-hmm... kinda wanted to emulate that feeling of, like, 134 00:24:34.572 --> 00:24:42.762 um, community or, like, discovering new articles that, you know, me and my team used to share every morning when we- Mm... would be getting ready for work. 135 00:24:43.192 --> 00:24:53.772 Um, and then, like, the Dribbble aspect of having your design featured on the front page. Like, having anyone recognize your work or share it publicly without you asking them, like, is such a good feeling. 136 00:24:53.802 --> 00:25:06.792 Best feeling, yeah. And so I really wanted to sort of emulate that to, to build community and, like, you know, so much... You see so much criticism, and, like, design Twitter can be kinda harsh at times. 137 00:25:06.932 --> 00:25:15.952 But, you know, it's all love, and like- [laughs]... the more of that we have, the better it is for everyone, and so that's kinda what I've been trying to do. 138 00:25:16.052 --> 00:25:28.412 Um, if I had to say, like, the best place, like, single source to get stuff, it would be Twitter, but there's just so much noise on there- Yeah... um, that it's hard to wade through. 139 00:25:28.452 --> 00:25:38.322 And so, like, if I can save people, you know, if they're not online or they're not on Threads or anything for a week, like, I can still keep them up to date- Mm-hmm... with, like- The f- the service, yeah... 140 00:25:38.402 --> 00:25:50.472 what I, yeah- Yeah... what I think is the most important, most relevant things that people are talking about. Do you notice if there's any particular type of thing, uh, that gets the most clicks in the newsletter? 141 00:25:50.552 --> 00:26:03.652 Like, whether it's, I mean, whether it's, like, this certain section tends to get the most clicks, or if it's, like, anecdotally, like, a type of story or, like, a subject area that's, like, not necessarily bound by the sections of the newsletter. 142 00:26:03.712 --> 00:26:15.832 Yeah, I'd say resources and events- Mm... for the most part. Yeah, I'd say those are the two bigger ones, and then news, I think, just because of where it's placed. Yeah. 143 00:26:16.352 --> 00:26:27.222 I guess I am curious how much time you're spending every morning, and, like, what the process is for producing each newsletter. Yeah, so getting a newsletter out is under an hour now. 144 00:26:27.232 --> 00:26:38.712 And so what I was doing early days is I used to be a, a night owl, and I'd stay up late. Do it at night. Sometimes till 2:00 in the morn- I w- oh, yeah. Mm-hmm. Till 2:00 in the morning, like, and I loved it, you know? 145 00:26:38.812 --> 00:26:46.202 Everyone's sleeping, it's quiet time. Um, I can get stuff done. But I have a family now, and- Yeah [laughs]... 146 00:26:46.232 --> 00:26:53.292 I can't stay up till 2:00 in the morning, 'cause if my son gets up at 3:00, then I'm screwed for the day, so, uh... 147 00:26:53.332 --> 00:26:58.972 And then also, like, there's times where things might come up through the day, and I might not be able to have that time at night. 148 00:26:59.002 --> 00:27:11.702 And so in order to build consistency, I kinda needed to switch my schedule, and so what I started doing is just getting up super early and, like- Mm-hmm... getting sort of core taken care of and- [laughs]... 149 00:27:11.712 --> 00:27:21.321 get the newsletter out, have my coffee. Like, it's quiet, everyone else is sleeping. I can, like, putter around the house, unload the dishwasher, and then I'm ready for everyone. Mm-hmm. 150 00:27:21.372 --> 00:27:34.902 And so yeah, that's kind of been the biggest impact on my, like, life personally, is just, like, re- reorganizing how I produce personal stuff. 'Cause I have- Yeah... other obligations right now. 151 00:27:34.932 --> 00:27:44.002 That's interesting that the newsletter has, like, became a forcing function in that. Which I think, too, like, the fact that you have done it for about a year now, have you missed... I mean, you don't do it on weekends. 152 00:27:44.112 --> 00:27:54.082 Maybe you don't do it on holidays. I'm not sure. Have you missed any days? Yeah, 100%. Um, and that's, that's kind of just the way it is, you know? Like- Mm-hmm... 153 00:27:54.092 --> 00:28:06.812 there's days where, you know, we don't have childcare or something- Yeah... or my son's sick, or I'm just tired, and I- Yeah... don't have the energy in it. If I have a sponsorship set up, like, I'm getting it out 100%. 154 00:28:07.262 --> 00:28:19.352 Yeah. That, that's my commitment. Um, but if I don't, then yeah, I don't really worry too much about it. I don't want it to be- That's good... a source of stress. Like- Yeah. Does it- Like, I don't have a boss. 155 00:28:19.472 --> 00:28:31.432 It's like- Yeah. Well, do you... I've, I've, I've wondered, like, if you were trying to make it, like, every single... like, "I can't miss a day," have you ever had anybody help you with it, or, like, a guest editor? 156 00:28:33.392 --> 00:28:44.032 No, I haven't. And I've thought a lot about this, and I definitely think it's possible. Um, and I've thought about how I could sort of bring on some help. 157 00:28:45.152 --> 00:28:59.542 I think I need to put some more focus in, in sponsorships and revenue in order- Yeah... to justify that. Um, but ultimately, like, it would be a shift in taste. Mm-hmm. You know? Like- That's the problem, yeah... 158 00:28:59.542 --> 00:29:08.992 some people's lives might be different than others. Um, so yeah, I've certainly thought about it, and I think if I ever wanna scale the thing, then I need to, like, figure out how to do that. Um- Let's wait. 159 00:29:09.032 --> 00:29:16.032 Let's, let's talk about scale, and I'm, or let's talk about monetization first, 'cause earlier you said, like, you know, you're like, "I don't know if we call this a business. It's a hobby." 160 00:29:16.521 --> 00:29:22.372 Um, so in, in terms of monetization, I know that there's sponsorships, and then you have a premium option. 161 00:29:22.472 --> 00:29:31.242 Um, I, I would hazard a guess that, like, it's brought you some, like, freelance inquiries too, in kind of a, you know, more abstract monetization way. 162 00:29:31.792 --> 00:29:39.402 Um, but with sponsorships, um, uh, that you've probably, you, you were probably doing it before this, but one of the earlier ones I found was, uh, in, in March. 163 00:29:40.482 --> 00:29:53.812 Um, and this was, it was sponsored by Open Doors, a design jobs-focused newsletter for junior designers. Um, how... Tell me about the sponsorship program for the newsletter. Um, yeah. 164 00:29:53.992 --> 00:30:03.772 So for the first six months of running the newsletter, like, I was just covering costs, paying for it, just seeing- Mm-hmm... you know, not worrying too much about it. 165 00:30:04.152 --> 00:30:16.692 Again, it was kind of providing, to your point, indirect, um, value- Yeah, personal brand... whether it's personal brand, relationship building, inbound freelance opportunities, whatever. Um, but 166 00:30:17.732 --> 00:30:30.092 yeah, I wanted to start monetizing it so I could cover costs and also think about, you know, running ads and- Mm... and growing it a bit more. Um-So yeah, I didn't really know where to start. 167 00:30:30.152 --> 00:30:37.292 I messaged a few other newsletter creators in the space, and they were super helpful, like just giving me insight of what they charged. 168 00:30:37.452 --> 00:30:49.632 Um, I, you know, looked at what other people were charging with similar audience sizes, um, and- How big was your audience at the time, approximately? I think I waited till it was about, like 2,000. Oh, that makes sense. 169 00:30:49.672 --> 00:30:57.552 Yeah. So I started in February- Okay... um, doing, doing ads. Yeah, I wanted to keep my prices low so that they were accessible. 170 00:30:57.592 --> 00:31:09.652 Is what percentage of the sends of the newsletter issues are sponsored these days, would you, would you guess? So to date, I've done 62. Um, and again, I started in February. 171 00:31:10.652 --> 00:31:20.802 Uh, those have trailed off a little bit 'cause I've increased my prices, so I need to- Mm... sort of rethink about how I wanna approach it. It's interesting doing a daily newsletter because, 172 00:31:21.832 --> 00:31:33.872 you know, I think most newsletters my size are charging, like, hundreds of dollars for a single, um, placement- Yeah... in their weekly newsletter. Um, but sending it every day, I, I 173 00:31:35.012 --> 00:31:42.152 imagine that my audience develops some sort of ad blindness where they- Mm. Definitely... kind of know where the ad is. They're just gonna- I sure would... scroll past it. 174 00:31:42.392 --> 00:31:52.612 So, yeah, so as much as I might have a audience size like that, and I might have a good open rate and good click rate, that is something that I'm sensitive to. 175 00:31:52.732 --> 00:32:02.192 So, um, yeah, pricing is definitely something I need to revisit. Um, but to date- Are you, are you structuring it on like a, just a flat rate, like per issue? 176 00:32:03.432 --> 00:32:08.142 Yeah, so I set up, like, a booking flow through cal.com- Yeah... 177 00:32:08.192 --> 00:32:16.452 where people can just, like, click through, see which ones are available, uh, and then it allows me to just capture all the information that I need for the sponsor. 178 00:32:16.572 --> 00:32:30.592 Again, just trying to optimize time as much as possible. Yeah. Um, and so that's been the main thing, and then whenever I've done outbound sales to brands that I like or think would be a fit, um, 179 00:32:31.812 --> 00:32:44.112 the reception has been pretty great. And so I just... My, like, biggest wish I would've from the last six months is, you know, spend some more time reaching out to brands and- Yeah... and starting these conversations. 180 00:32:44.212 --> 00:32:54.032 I've got a ton of prospects, and I've started the conversations with a ton of people. It's just I haven't had the time to follow through and get them booked, and so- It's a relationships business... that's my... Sorry? 181 00:32:54.292 --> 00:33:07.132 It's a relationships business. Yeah, certainly. Mm-hmm. Um, so yeah, that's kind of why, again, I, I, I'm not really thinking of it as a business the way- Yeah... I, I m- maybe should be. But again, 182 00:33:08.332 --> 00:33:18.392 in terms of, like, priority and w- how much I can dedicate time to, like, it's- Yeah... it's- Uh, yeah... you know- It's still in the, like, what matters is that you're having fun phase. Yeah. Um- Exactly... 183 00:33:18.452 --> 00:33:23.512 so the other thing, you do have a premium offering. Uh, it's more framed as a, like, Buy Me a Coffee, though. 184 00:33:23.592 --> 00:33:33.972 Like, quite literally that's how you frame it, though it is, I think, a premium subscription once you, like, click through. Um, and I understand that there are 21 supporters. Uh, some of them, you know, gave their name. 185 00:33:34.012 --> 00:33:45.412 They're, they're carved on the wall of, of your website. Uh, some of them are an- are anonymous. Um, and judging by the number and the price, you're bringing in somewhere between, like, $630, $700. 186 00:33:45.892 --> 00:33:52.992 Uh, so that's like, it is very much Buy Me a Coffee, probably about covering your software costs, um, maybe, maybe a little less, I don't know. 187 00:33:53.632 --> 00:34:05.732 Uh, and then the main benefit is that they can look at the whole archive, and there's no ads, um, in the version they get, and that there's this quarterly supporter-only post, which I'm very curious about that. 188 00:34:05.832 --> 00:34:14.732 Uh, but then also, yeah, curious too about, like, when you started the premium thing and why you thought that was the right time to start it. Yeah, I wanted to frame it very much like, 189 00:34:15.872 --> 00:34:21.692 um, you are just helping me cover costs. Like, I can't- Yeah. Like, hey, if you like this- Again, coming back to time. Yeah. Yeah. 190 00:34:21.762 --> 00:34:33.892 I couldn't commit to, like, providing you some much better option, and like, I'm, like, embarrassed that you mentioned the quarterly, uh, or, uh, yeah, subscriber. 'Cause you haven't written one yet [laughs]. 191 00:34:34.042 --> 00:34:41.042 'Cause I haven't written one yet. Um, and so I now have, I think, 35 premium subscribers. Oh, nice. 192 00:34:41.232 --> 00:34:47.422 Um, but for the most part, these are people that I, like, have been emailing with and, like, have established relationships with or were like- Yeah... 193 00:34:47.472 --> 00:34:57.412 early supporters or, or, you know, I got the chance to meet at Config, uh, last month. So, um, yeah, I need to revisit that. But that's awesome. That's like, that's beautiful. 194 00:34:57.472 --> 00:35:10.052 It's this community that people are paying to support. Like, it's, like, the same as, like, going to your, I don't know, local... Ha- having, like, a local soccer league, and you're, like, all chipping in for the thing. 195 00:35:10.112 --> 00:35:18.892 I don't know. Not, that's, like, a bad metaphor. Yeah. But you know what I mean. It's just, like, you, you contribute to your community literally. Yeah. I, I tried to be as transparent as possible about it. 196 00:35:19.012 --> 00:35:25.442 Like, the reality is this does cost me money, and I do j- need to justify why I'm waking up at 5:00 AM- [laughs]... to my wife every morning. 197 00:35:25.672 --> 00:35:40.352 So, like, if you can help out a little bit, and that's also, like, why I kinda started doing sponsorships too is- Mm-hmm... to help justify things, like, um, and, and make it a, a little bit easier to... 198 00:35:40.932 --> 00:35:54.702 You know, I'm not paying out of pocket for anything anymore. Like- Yeah... I've covered cost plus some, I think. So yeah, to date, um, I think through sponsors, premium subscribers, and, like, Beehiiv has boosts. Yeah. 199 00:35:54.752 --> 00:36:03.652 I think I've just crossed over $7,000, so, um, which I'm happy with given the amount of time and effort that I've put into it, and it's covered- Yeah... 200 00:36:03.712 --> 00:36:16.062 cost, um, and allowed me to start thinking about how I could use that money to grow or, you know- Yeah... potentially bring on someone to help, um, or pay for new tools. You're, like, getting to that stage. Yeah. Yeah. 201 00:36:16.072 --> 00:36:21.852 Pay for... Yeah, exactly. So- So wait, I, one thing I wanna, I wanna riff on for a second here is the, y- your embarrassment. 202 00:36:21.872 --> 00:36:39.924 The, the quarterly, the quarterly supporter-only post, um, not riffing on your embarrassment, but I wanna, I w- I'm really curious what that could be because in my mind when I hear that, it's like this sounds like it's, like-Not like an aggregated post that's like something like may- an essay you're writing, or like it's something very different than what you're doing. 203 00:36:40.064 --> 00:36:54.824 So I'm, I- if you're comfortable with sharing, I'm really, really curious about like what kind of the vision is and the directions it could go. Totally. The immediate thought that I had was, I love to write. Yeah. Um, 204 00:36:56.464 --> 00:37:12.804 I don't have a ton of time to do it anymore, and so I was thinking I could do a bit more editorial style, um, and choose a few of the topics from the last month or last quarter- Yeah... and really like focus in on them. 205 00:37:13.664 --> 00:37:30.884 Um, or also identify trends. Like, one of my biggest marketing channels has been Twitter, and like- Mm-hmm... I find that times when I post about trends, whether it's like trends on websites or- Trends in AI wearables... 206 00:37:30.914 --> 00:37:41.204 trends, right. Yeah. Some- exactly. Um, those seem to resonate a lot. And so I think if I was to focus and still build on the, um, 207 00:37:42.664 --> 00:37:53.144 build on the brand of the newsletter and keep it within the same context, I think that would be like the number one thing I'd do. Really compelling evolution for you personally. Yeah. Yeah, certainly. 208 00:37:53.164 --> 00:38:04.384 So, um- You did, wait, you did say quick there that, uh, Twitter has been an important marketing thing for, marketing, uh, channel for you, and you've got 500, 5,000. Um, where, where have they come from? 209 00:38:04.484 --> 00:38:13.604 I know like Twitter is your most active social media, so I, that was kinda my first guess is they probably mostly came from Twitter. But yeah, how, where, where, where are these 5,000 people coming from? 210 00:38:14.644 --> 00:38:30.204 Uh, yeah, Twitter's been a big one. Um, I get a lot of organic people coming in. Um, it's difficult 'cause I set up a new landing page, um, 'cause I didn't like the design of the Beehiiv one. Yeah. 211 00:38:30.264 --> 00:38:44.684 And they- Yours is really nice... yeah. Uh, so I set that up using their API, and what I'm unable to get is like refer traffic unless I'm using UTM parameters everywhere. Mm. And- Which is such a hassle... 212 00:38:45.564 --> 00:38:55.784 yeah, it's such a hassle. So I've kind of lost some of that insight, and I, I know there's ways that I could get a bit more of that insight. Again, I just haven't had the time to. 213 00:38:55.824 --> 00:39:04.004 But, but that mean, what you're saying though is it, it like is entirely organic, it, whether or not that's from your Twitter or like from people- Yeah... sharing it with their friends or in Slack. 214 00:39:04.774 --> 00:39:16.904 Yeah, so 5,000 people is 100% organic. Wow. Um, and the biggest driver has me- been sharing those bento videos, j- that are just like quick summary snapshots of like what you can expect in that feature. 215 00:39:18.024 --> 00:39:26.394 Um, and yeah, and so I, I built in... There's an element of like, uh, social network effects in it, in that- Sure... 216 00:39:26.664 --> 00:39:39.664 I post this video of content, quick preview, and then the next comment is I tag like everyone that's on Twitter in that o- in that- Mm... uh, quote. Like the brands or the, or the individuals who made the stuff. Yeah. 217 00:39:39.724 --> 00:39:51.984 So I can either lead people to their profiles to help them discover new people or give them content to re-share on their own of like, "Hey, I got featured in this thing." Like- Mm-hmm... "Check it out," or whatever. 218 00:39:52.044 --> 00:40:08.004 And so that's been huge. Um, that has been trickling down a little bit, so, um, I think the next thing I wanna experiment from a growth standpoint is giveaways. Hm. I read your newsletter, um- 219 00:40:08.984 --> 00:40:18.424 Maybe the Cheapskate London one. Cheapskate London. Yeah. Yeah. Mm-hmm. Um, and I- I think you read it a lot... messaged them on the, on the Beehiiv Slack group, and, uh, they were lovely. 220 00:40:18.524 --> 00:40:23.444 Um, and so I think I, I wanna do something like that. I've already lined up some giveaways with some brands. 221 00:40:23.764 --> 00:40:30.674 I just need to sit down and like put together what that campaign looks like and the structure and how it fits into the newsletter as like a mainstay- Yeah... 222 00:40:30.674 --> 00:40:43.814 of like every week I'm gonna give away, um, a subscription, pro subscription to a piece of software- Mm, that's smart... or something, uh, to people who have shared with at least one person that signed up. Yeah. 223 00:40:43.814 --> 00:40:47.774 Basically the same model that they do. It's such a good model. 'Cause I think that's great. Yeah, I think it's- Yeah, it's so great... 224 00:40:47.844 --> 00:40:55.804 I haven't found like a better, I mean, other people do giveaways too, but like theirs is so sustainable, where it's like, you know, a box of donuts or like a ticket to a concert. 225 00:40:55.824 --> 00:41:05.084 And it makes sense because it's, you know, all in London, but, um- Totally. And from a, a brand partner perspective, it's just more advertising for them. Yeah. Like- Exactly. 226 00:41:05.124 --> 00:41:09.824 If you can get them to give it to you, it's really smart. Yeah. Yeah. It's- Yeah... everybody wins. 227 00:41:09.904 --> 00:41:22.744 Um, what would you say, having been doing this for a year and having evolved the concept, like from a design perspective, what would you say are some of like the core tenets or core principles of newsletter design, um, as advice for other people? 228 00:41:22.844 --> 00:41:30.604 'Cause I, th- that's, I think that's something a lot of people struggle with because there's, it's like either you copy a Morning Brew format or you like try to figure out your own thing, and 229 00:41:31.704 --> 00:41:40.984 I just know a lot of people struggle with it. Yeah. What are some of the core principles of newsletter design? I think I'm still trying to figure this out because email is so restrictive in like what you can do with it. 230 00:41:41.204 --> 00:41:54.514 Mm-hmm. And some would argue that the decisions I've made are terrible for newsletter design. All the GIFs. In that, you, yeah, GIFs, um, it's like dark instead of white. Mm-hmm. 231 00:41:54.544 --> 00:42:07.284 Like, some, um, email clients, like, don't love that. I think the biggest thing, and I had a nugget of an idea out of the last year, is like newsletter design agency service. 232 00:42:07.364 --> 00:42:18.784 Like, if you can provide branding and templates and all of that stuff. And so to answer your question, I do think it is approaching it as much as you can. 233 00:42:18.964 --> 00:42:34.804 If you're able or have the, a partner or the means to hire someone, like, create a brand and a visually distinct experience for your readers- Mm... because in the inbox, every email looks the exact same. It's just text. 234 00:42:34.844 --> 00:42:49.704 And so in my, like, sort of research of looking at things that had done well, like Milk Road being a, a crypto email, like that's a very opinionated design- Yes... that works very well for them as a brand. 235 00:42:50.664 --> 00:42:55.464 I think what you did with Creator Spotlight, I've given you this feedback in the past, like I think it's beautifully designed. 236 00:42:55.504 --> 00:43:07.384 Like, it, it looks great, the sort of, um, consistency of that red circle emoji to like- Yeah... as soon as you open it up, you know exactly where you are, and you know what you're getting. 237 00:43:07.424 --> 00:43:19.264 And so I think if you can think about it that way, that would be what I would suggest. Um, [clears throat] and then visuals. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Visuals are, are- You need that. 238 00:43:19.344 --> 00:43:36.184 I always think of that in terms of like visual texture, like whether it's the visuals or like the way you're making sections, it's like the, the way you make an email not look like every other email is giving the, the reader something to like, just like f- for their eye to latch onto and like stop them from just scrolling if it's like, you know, it's not a newspaper article where it's just text. 239 00:43:36.264 --> 00:43:48.324 Like, you need, you need something to latch onto. Um- Yeah. Yeah. Cool. I think we'll end it there. Uh, where should people go to find your work? Um, yeah, go to todayin.design to check out the newsletter. 240 00:43:48.644 --> 00:44:01.384 Um, or I'm just very active on Twitter, so definitely say hi. Um, I love meeting new people and, yeah, having chats like this. Yeah. Awesome. Thanks a lot, Francis. Yeah. This was fun. No, of course. 241 00:44:01.484 --> 00:44:11.324 Thank you for coming on. Um, yeah, this has been the Creator Spotlight podcast. I have been your host, Francis Zier, and I've been speaking with Cole Desrochers. I'll see you next week. 242 00:44:15.843 --> 00:44:20.064 [outro music]