I entered the world of content creation with the perspective an, of an artist. I wanted to make art, but I wanted to figure out how to mold this into some way of making a living for myself. How do you make a good video?
We've spent quite a bit of time understanding short-form content, just playing the game of human psychology. Not everyone wants to talk about it. Not everyone wants to give away the sauce.
Number one most important part about content creation, and no one talks about this, okay? Number one most important thing is- Welcome back to the Creator Spotlight podcast.
Today we're speaking with Thomas Yum, an ambitious video creator specializing in Instagram and YouTube. You may know him for his Instagram series, "125 Days to Make $10,000 per Month."
Most of the people who've come on the show in recent months have been millennials with traditional journalism and writing backgrounds.
Thomas is Gen Z, and his background is in software as an engineer and product designer besides making videos. So I am excited to have a different perspective today. Thank you for coming on. Dang, you hyped me up, man.
I appreciate [laughs] that. That's my job. [laughs] That's my job. Um- I'm excited- Okay... for this. Yeah. Good. I, I should say before we get too far into it, something I wanna clarify for myself and for the listener.
So the way we were introduced is a previous Spotlight guest, John Hu, the CEO of Stan, which is the digital storefront for Creators product. Um, he introduced us, and I learned that you are joining Stan.
Are you gonna- going to keep being a creator with a full-time job? Very hard question because there's so many different aspects to being a creator, right? Mm-hmm. There's all these platforms. There's short form.
There's long form. I guess over the past four and a half years, I've definitely-- I've, like, switched.
I went-- I started off on YouTube, got a bit disillusioned because I really wanted to make, like, the, the deep, meaningful stuff- Mm-hmm... the reflective type of content.
And I noticed that, you know, that, that, uh, that doesn't really hit the, the MrBeast-ified algorithm these days. [laughs] No. So I went to Instagram. Um, and that's kind of where I've, I've settled my home base.
But throughout this process of figuring out how to live life according to my principles and- Mm...
build a business that follows the type of a life I want to live and the type of value I want to provide, I noticed-- I learned about newsletters and LinkedIn as well, right? So- Mm-hmm...
there's just so many different avenues. For now, I think my top priorities are still Instagram and LinkedIn. Um, I attended, like, a conference last month where I heard, like, LinkedIn is the new TikTok of 2019. Yeah.
Like, it's still, it's still, like, lots of open, fresh, fresh ground to be, to be conquered, essentially. Um, but when it comes to the Creativerse, for now... So I have a co-founder. His ri- His name is Ryan.
Amazing dude. Like, literally the dream partner I could have had because our, our skills, uh, like, interlock perfectly. Like, he's, like, my- Mm.... the perfect other half.
You guys both are pretty successful on Instagram making short-form videos, building audience there- Thank you... let alone other things. I think you've got 34,000 or something.
He's got, like, 87,000 followers on, on Instagram. Yeah.
So we've been-- We've spent quite a bit of time understanding short-form content, and that's the basis of the Creativerse business as well as the newsletter where we teach B2C content strategy.
When it comes to what's gonna happen to the business specifically, I'm, I'm taking a step back because
Ryan and I had a conversation about three weeks ago, um, and we realized that we fixed the cash flow, cash flow problem, right? We're, we're profitable. We're making quite a bit of money, but
we were plateauing on the learning front. Mm. We learned all that it took to get a business from nothing to...
Last month it was around 27K, which is great by all standard means, but we have to- So the margins, I imagine, is basically just the two of your time and then probably some, like, software- Subscriptions... like- Yeah.
Yeah, software subscriptions. So i- in the consulting in- information space, yeah, it's, it's-- it-- The margins are quite nice.
But in order to scale, we would have to significantly change the way we're doing things, and frankly, we didn't know how to do it because we're, we're, we're rather new to entrepreneurship.
I'd say this last year was like- You just graduated college a year ago, right? Yes, that's true. Mm-hmm. So I, I feel like last year was my-- the freshman year of my entrepreneurship journey. Yeah.
Um, so yeah, we, we, we noticed that we were kind of lagging behind on the learning front. We were reading books, taking all that knowledge, but we didn't know how to actionably take the best next step. Mm.
So we're considering, you know, in 10 years from now, do we want to continue doing just content strategy consulting? And the answer to that was no. We have bigger ambitions.
Um, so we're both trying to figure out who we can support next because we believe that working at a company would be the next best step to- Yeah...
just take in all and absorb the knowledge of all the older, more experienced people around us. And you know John. John is-- He is extremely knowledgeable, and he's super wise. So, um- Mm-hmm...
for, for me specifically- And a ball of energy, which is very valuable. Yeah. [laughs] You need somebody like that to kind of feed off of. That's true. And, and he's, he's very inspiring and, and- Mm...
I feel like I'm-- When I speak to him, I can speak to his true genuine self, so that's very- Mm... valuable to me.
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So the way that works for-- It's-- We, we work with, um, startups, companies, brands, and we, we consult them on their social media strategies, specifically- Mm... short-form content. Um, so that's the majority of it.
We also have a paid version of the newsletter, um, and we write biweekly case studies breaking down successful creators/brands on social media and just breaking down exactly how they did it from start to finish so that the person reading can also just take those learnings and apply it to their content as well.
Yeah. Um, that's a very s- tiny chunk of it. Um, that was the initial idea that we were super pumped up about in the beginning. But, you know, after going through the plan, we realized just how hard it was. So- Yeah...
we, we decided to work with- You thought you thought the newsletter was gonna be-- the paid newsletter was gonna be the main source- Yes... of revenue? Oh, okay. Yes. Have you heard of Pat Walls' Starter Story? Yes.
Yeah. He, he's very-- That's-- He's very good at what he does. Definitely somebody I could do- Very, very good... Creator Spotlight. Mm-hmm. Yeah, same, same. And that was definitely the inspiration.
We noticed that there was no starter story where-- So what Pat Walls does is he breaks down entrepreneurs' journeys and exactly how they went from zero to whatever... profits their business- Yeah... is making.
And I break that down into like a paid newsletter, right? There was nothing for that in, in the creator world, and we realized that there-- having transparency, there could be a huge value add to people. Mm-hmm.
Um, so that's the birth of that idea. And Ryan and I, we actually came up with this idea independently, and we're just friends, and we're just talking about it.
We realized, wait a minute, [chuckles] we have the same idea. Do we, do we really want to compete? So that's how we joined forces in the beginning. That's... Okay.
Well, as somebody who does a similar thing, [laughs] that's what we're doing now to some extent. Though mine's a little different.
Um, I wanna talk about this, like how you say like, you know, there was no starter story for creators. It was harder to find. Two things.
I'm cur- I'm curious if you agree with kind of these challenges I've seen in, in doing Creator Spotlight. Two things. One is that not everyone wants to talk about it. Not everyone wants to give away the sauce.
Um, I guess my question to you is like, what are some of the challenges you ran up into doing these case studies where it's like, damn, we really want to like... This is somebody's story we really wanna tell,
but we can't access this key piece of info, whatever it is. Tell me some of the challenges in like actually producing- Yeah... case studies you liked and were proud of to put out. One key issue I noticed was
we, we've-- So the way that we, we market, like our marketing funnel looks like this: we, we start with short-form content, and that funnels down to, um, like the, the call to action.
You receive a free case study as a result of commenting on the video that talks about-- that breaks down that creator's, um, journey. We've noticed that the short-form audience
has a really short attention span, so they're not willing to sit and- Yeah... read an entire case study. So we had to iterate a lot and figure out the best way to
make the wording of the, of the case study as digestible as possible. Mm-hmm. You know, all those like, like all the newsletter tactics, right? You have super short sentences, you have highlights here and there.
You, you put lots of images to make it just to re-hook them in, right? Because it's like the second they get bored, they're gonna click away and go back to scroll- Yeah... on their phone, right?
That's the battle that I'm reeling now, and I feel like that is just the result of our audience being younger. Mm-hmm. Um, Pat Walls in Starter Story, right? He attracts a, quite a little bit older audience.
Um, people who didn't-- may, may not have grown up just with short form and just brain rotting all day, you know? So, um, that was one fundamental interesting difference that I noticed. Yeah. And it, it was a challenge.
Yeah. Yeah. You know, that's interesting you talk about like the, the one sentence thing. This is like, I think I'm probably an outlier here. I have trouble reading the one sentence format. Really? I find it really hard.
It doesn't stick my attention. I need long paragraphs- Mm... which is like counterintuitive because I know that probably a lot of my readers would appreciate more of that, so I try to break it down.
And the, the approach I try to take is like [lips smack] multiple textures, right?
Which is just another way of saying like this, maybe this paragraph is one sentence, but this one's three, that one's five, and here's a, you know, a pull quote, here's an image.
And making it like, as you scroll through the newsletter, it's like a, a multi-textural experience. I, I, yeah, I don't know. I can't do it. I think when...
I might have misrepresented exactly what the case studies look like. It-- like having the multi-textural- No, no, no. Yeah. It's true... experience is like this.
Every, every way you can, you just have to re-hook them in any way you can, right? Yeah. And the, the variance in sentence structure is one way to do it.
I think it's interesting 'cause in our last conversation, like we just, we had a call earlier this week just to, just to meet each other. Mm-hmm.
You mentioned that like you enjoy the philosophical depth and really- Yeah... pondering these topics. I feel like when it comes to people that just wanna get the value add and dip, right? Yeah.
Get the value add, try to see what I can actually do in my video and just dip. They're, they're looking for just quick, quick tips- You're right. You're right. Yeah... and some sort of evidence.
So it, it depends on the head space that the person's in, definitely, when it comes to what type of-- what your, what your newsletter content should essentially look like and feel like. Yeah. Right?
So th-this is a great excuse to ask you what the term content creator means to you. [laughs] How you define it. You know, I knew you're gonna ask this [laughs] because in Jonathan you asked the same thing.
I ask, I ask everybody. It's, it's my favorite question. Oh, okay. Okay. But we, we don't have to spend too long on it. Um. Yeah, I got you. I got you.
You, you could, yeah, spend, you can spend a second thinking about it. Okay. It's funny 'cause I, I, I felt this coming, but I didn't prepare for it. [laughs] Um- I, I prefer it that way. I like it natural.
[laughs] Let me see. You know how like in the 1940s and '50s, like there was like the American dream, right? Mm-hmm. There was American dream where there was- There still is. Some say there still is. The...
I, I agree that there still is, but the way that it presents itself in today's society is completely different. Before, buying a house was like three X your salary, right? Yeah. House- AKA it was possible.
It was possible. It was fre- it was actually so possible. I was looking at this like, these, these numbers are so low. Nowadays it's, it's crazy, right? Everything's so saturated in the physical world. Mm.
But in the digital world, I feel like that is the tod-today's version of this, this new American dream, where access is completely democratized.
Like anyone can become a creator and have some sort of business or pursue their passions in a way that, in a, in a, in a space that hasn't existed before.
So to me, being a content creator is anyone that interacts with this new digital world. Mm. Mm-hmm. Right?
To, to, to provide the service they want for the world or live the life that they want in a way that wasn't possible 20 years earlier.
So there's so much opportunity now, and, you know, it's getting more and more saturated. Who knows what the next new American dream will be? But at this present moment, I, I, I'm super...
I feel super strongly the fact that this is the most democratized space, um, that exists 'cause it's so new. Yeah. That's a good way of putting it.
Um, and what's interesting to me too is like that you frame it in the sense of the American, American dream, which I agree because I think the appeal of the creator economy is that it, it seems like there is a short path to having enough wealth to feel secure, right?
That's the American dream kinda you're talking about.One aspect of the creator economy I wanted to put to you, a loose theory I've been working on- Mm. Let's hear it...
is that the creator economy is purely about marketing. It's not even about being creative. Marketing is creative, to be sure. That's a g- a thing you can do creatively, and it, it involves all these different media.
But I think ease of distribution, which is what these platforms, social media platforms introduce, right, especially with algorithmic feeds,
we are deep into the point where it's more about gaming these algorithms than just, like, making something for its own sake. You have to... You know, the classic Marshall McLuhan, "The medium is the message."
Like, what you're making is designed to be distributed on the algorithm. And you're, you're quite good at this. You...
I mean, this isn't to discount your skill as, like, a, a filmmaker, as a cinematographer, all these things that I wanna get into a- as well shortly, but you're also really good at playing the algorithm game.
[lips smack] And on this show, we talk about growth and monetization. You do that in Creator Verse, and I watched a bunch of Ryan's videos yesterday, and they're all really about digital marketing.
And so this is my loose theory, the creator economy is just marketing. Agree or disagree? I think th- it depends on intent. I don't, I don't think every creator is inherently a marketer. When...
If you t- consider people doing it for commerce and making- Mm... a living, 100% it's marketing, 'cause you're trying to optimize for people's attention in order to get to that end goal, right? Mm-hmm.
But thinking about the artist perspective, there are so many people... I, I, I live in LA, you know. This is, like, where all the, the video production people live. Yeah.
Plenty of them make videos for the sake of the arts, even if it doesn't do well. You know, that, that's not...
That, that could be deep in their head, "Oh, I wa- I want to have that opportunity of having a large following and, and getting influence that way." But for the purist, I don't think marketing matters.
See, my, my- I, I... Yeah. Yeah. Oh, no. I, I agree with you, but I think for the creator, in the sense of, like, content creator. When I say creator- Oh, I see... I mean content creator. Okay. Okay.
Like, for the content creator participating in the creator economy, which I'm framing as, like, using any of these digital platforms to distribute content to audiences. Like, that's all about marketing.
You can be an artist and, like, make a living as an artist, and even not participate in the creator economy. But, um- Oh, I see what you mean... I'm just really saying the creator economy. Yeah.
In that case, the answer is yes. [laughs] Um, you mentioned, like, we're, we're at the... We're, like, h- held by the neck by the algorithm, right? Yes.
I think rather than the algorithm, it's just playing the game of human psychology, right? If you can optimize for human psychology and what makes people...
Like, you know, news stations these days, all they do is the super sensationalist violence, violence content, right? 'Cause that's what gets views. So likewise- What, so what's the Family Guy theme song?
All you see these days, violence and beer. [laughs] Yeah, exactly. Exactly. That's right. That's good. [laughs] This is the, this is the next version of that literally, right? Um,
yeah, it's just, it's just the game of trying to see who can make something that's most engaging to the widest demographic of people. Okay. Yeah.
So I'm gonna stop you there and talk about how you, uh, are good at doing that. So [laughs] So your... Y- you've got, um... You've, you've, you've garnered millions of views on Instagram.
You've got 34,000 or so followers there. On, on YouTube, you're less... You haven't really posted there for a year, but you've got, like, 5,000 followers, and your videos combined... I should have counted up.
I think, I think have over a million views, specifically because there's a lot you made kind of like...
You went to Columbia, and it's, like, about being a student at Columbia, which I remember when I was applying for college, you know, looking on YouTube for videos about my college.
You've said that every December, those get a bunch of views. Um, but I want to talk about how you approach making videos. Uh, let's... [sighs] First tell me, like, you started on YouTube.
What kind of frustrations, walls, did you run into that then made you shift over to Instagram? I began my... I, I entered the world of content creation with the perspective an, of an artist. Mm-hmm. I wanted to make art.
And I would spend... Towards the end of my, like, YouTube career, right? I would spend up to a month, like 40, 50 hours r- making one video. I put my heart and soul into it, right?
And I feel like I made something that was very beautiful and very valuable to the right person. But because it didn't a- adhere to YouTube conventions- Mm-hmm... it just wouldn't do well. I wouldn't have any ROIs.
This is exactly what we were just talking about. So if, if I was a purist artist, I'll be here with that. But I wanted to figure out how to mold this into some way of making a living for myself. Mm-hmm.
'Cause for me, being a content creator and working in the content, like, the creator economy, that is the life that best fulfills the principles that I want to live with in the future. So- Mm-hmm...
I very much need to, I need to find a way to make this work. Also, my parents. I told my parents I wanted to quit software engineering, uh, back in September 2023, and they just straight up- They were happy about that?
No, they were, they were- [laughs] Very quiet. I, I, I d- I didn't show any evidence of success yet, so it's like kind of h- how can they trust me if I, I don't...
I'm leaving this, like, very s- solidified, easy path, right? Not easy, but like, you know- Yeah... relatively certain path to do this thing where I'm just making videos into the void and nothing happens. So- Mm-hmm.
So wait- But-... real quick. Real... Th- you keep bringing up these values. I took a screenshot of the video- [laughs]... the recent Instagram video where you, where you describe these values.
And so you're trying to figure out, like, "What's the job I wanna do?" And it's a grid, three by three, so nine total, and the last one you put in where you're like, "What's the," you know, "what's the key here?"
is the one in the middle, which I'll read last.
But these values are, uh, reading from left to right: Do creative work, be healthy, family is everything, travel everywhere, inspire, seek inspiring friends, own my work, and be close to the impact.
And the final one in the middle that you put in where it's like, "What's... How do I unlock this all?" is be financially secure, [laughs] which goes back to this, you know, you have to sacrifice some of this.
Maybe that's even the wrong way to put it, but you have to forgo maybe some of the artistic purity to make money. And I don't know if- But I feel like-... that's the right way to put it, but...
I feel like, I feel like there's a way for everything to work all together. Mm.
You know, when I worked in corporate and when I worked in big tech, you know, my internships back in college, um, I was working-To simply this job as a means to later have all these other principles fulfilled. Yeah.
And I noticed how burnt out I got. A dream deferred. A dream deferred, yeah. The dream deferred is a dream lost, essentially.
If I kept going down that path-- I, I spoke with my managers, and my manager's like, "Yeah, I wanted to be a singer, but, you know, gotta make money."
Like, he's-- s-sure he's content, but, like, he's not living the life that he could've-- like, that, that dream life where- Mm-hmm... the majority of these principles are fulfilled, right?
He might have financial freedom, but he's l- l- he's foregoing all these other things. My goal, because, you know, we only have this one shot at life- Mm-hmm...
I want to be able to achieve as many of these principles as possible, and I found working as a creator and building the-- first the social capital as w- as well as experience and learning capital in the space, was the unlock for living this, this life that I want in the future.
Mm-hmm. And doing it as much as I can along the way as well. So when it comes back to the, the, the New American Dream side of things, I feel like this is the one place where that can actually be fulfilled for me.
So- Yeah... that's where my interest came from. Yeah. And, and I'm wishing you the best of luck. Um- Thank you. Okay.
And of course, another video in August 2024, you put on your Instagram, uh, is about three secrets to making 10K a month and getting four million views, which after this I do wanna talk about that 10K per month series.
Um, the three secrets you list out are stakes. You need to put stakes in your videos, and you talk about how you learned this from movies. There's always something keeping you invested, the stakes.
Number two is building in public. Uh, number three is being an expert. We'll start with the 10K per month series. So, uh, this would've been a little over a year ago.
You had 125 days left before college graduation, and you make this video, "I'm gonna get to making $10,000 per month before I graduate. I've gotta do it."
There's your stakes, there's your building in public, and you making the videos is putting you out there as an expert that will get you hired for some of the services, which I'll list what your stated goals were to get to 10,000 per month.
Uh, $500 in ad revenue and brand deals, $1,500 in video editing for TikTokers and YouTubers, $1,500 as a camera work and creative director, and s- $6,500 making UGC.
Um, I've been talking for a while here, [chuckles] so tell me about that, uh, 125 Days to 10K series, how it came about, and how you approached it. Yeah, sure. First off, you're, you're a detective, man.
You are j- I didn't notice that pattern before. I'm gonna think about that later. Okay. Anyway, um, yeah. So this idea-- I, I was, I was on a gap semester. Um, I was at my aunt's cafe in Korea. Mm.
I spent a month there alone just to spend some time reflecting. And
the-- I, I told you that in September 2023, which was f- three months prior, my parents rejected my proposal to become a content creator and quit, quit software engineering. And I realized, "How do I build their trust?"
You know, parents are very data-driven. Mm-hmm [laughs]. So if I can find out a way to make money online [chuckles] that'll, that'll solve that side of things, um, as well as prove to myself that it's possible.
So at this cafe I was brainstorming. I had a, like, sheet of notebook paper, and I eventually settled on this 10K a month challenge through content creation, right? But I had to make this stick as much as possible.
So the same statement that I say at the beginning of every video during that challenge, it was, "I have X days left to make 10K per month before I graduate from college," right? Mm-hmm.
In that statement itself, you have the goal, 10K per month, right? You have the, the deadline, 125 days left in the very beginning, and it, it goes down with every video. And you also have the context.
You know, uh, you notice that I'm a student. So I tried to add that s- last layer of relatability towards this ambitious goal with this deadline. So- The whole story- Kinda...
is contained within, like, the first second or two of the video. Exactly.
And I feel like the reason why this series even did well was because that was so, like, as, as perfectly as possible, it was, like, generated and crafted, right?
So I think that's the first reason why this, this series did well, because it was super clear what the value prop was.
You had a reason to stay, kinda like in Hollywood, you, you have the inciting incident, and then you stay for the journey, right? The stakes. This series was like... It's like a TV show.
Every, every week is a new episode, right? I, I try something new. I-- maybe I fail. I provide updates as I build in public, trying to figure out how to make this all work. Um, that's kind of the approach there.
And, um, I also... I, I, I really struggled with, you know, posting consistently, so I tried- Mm... to create a format that would be as replicable as possible.
So these videos were about eight, seven to 10 seconds, um, and it, it-- they loop very quickly. So it's- There's a lot of clips, though. There's a lot of clips even within that short, short amount of time. That's true.
There, there are. There are. And they were, they were very carefully crafted, but rather than doing a one-minute video, which would take forever, I wouldn't have time to actually make the money, right?
[chuckles] So, um, that's kind of my thought process behind this whole, this whole journey. Yeah. So wait, also one question. Do you know about what your Instagram following was when you started and what it ended at?
Yeah. Okay. So it started around, like, 2.5K, right? This is just friends and family over time. Yeah. And when it ended, it was around 20K. Yeah. In 125 days. In 125 days, yeah. Actually, 120, I think. Oh, yeah.
Like, five days off. Okay. You- But 125 [laughs]... but 125 sounded better. [laughs] That's true. That's true. Yeah. Yeah. Um- Um, well, okay. So how about the money side?
I know that it, you know, four weeks in, you'd done $1,100, and you on- you did hit the goal by the end, but I think your total from that entire 125 days was, like, 14,000. So you hit- Yes...
10,000 one month, but the rest of the, um... Or one, one, yeah, one month, but the rest of the, like, three months were [chuckles] each were far from the goal.
So I was extremely lucky that everything-- Like, you know, like, the, the, the sales process can take a while with, especially with- Mm... startups. You know, you can negotiate for months.
Everything just happened to align in the month of May. Like, [chuckles] it was perfect. Um-And this is one of the problems with
assigning myself this challenge, where I would prioritize only for that, that short-term goal, and I would just... Essentially I would, I became... I was, I was just a gig worker, right? Mm-hmm. I was, I was- Yeah...
I wasn't building any true systems. I was just doing whatever I can, and every extra hour of efforts means this much output.
So I didn't really build the, the, the systems or the structure to make sure that this ball would keep rolling. So it stopped rolling after I stopped, but it was enough to prove to my parents that this was worth trying.
Yeah. Mm. Was that... Do you think that was the ultimate goal, though? Was your pa- were your parents the primary audience? The, I think the first audience was myself. Yeah.
I'd been in this game for four years up to that point, and I hadn't really seen success. But I knew that I really enjoyed doing this. So to prove- Mm...
to myself that it's possible, I, I tried to optimize as much as possible for human psychology. Um, but also the, the added benefit of proving to my parents that, you know, this, this could be a possible path to take.
Yeah. So. Um, w- so of that, the 14,000 or so that you made,
so the, the stream, revenue streams you were after were ad revenue, brand deals, video editing for TikTokers and YouTubers, camera work, and being creative director, and UGC.
What actually ended up being the biggest proportion of that income? Yeah, so video production for individuals, like, like personal brands- Mm... as well as startups, that was by far the biggest.
I think, I think it was maybe 70% of the total. The other- And you thought it would only be 15%. Right. I thought UGC was the way to do it. Then I, I did it, and I realized how difficult it was.
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I wanna talk about the ongoing series right now, 100K per month, but first, I do wanna talk about your approach to actual video production, because you're really good at this. Um, tell me- Thank you...
I guess a, an abbreviated version of how you learned how to do this, and then the, the meat I really wanna get into is, like, how you actually approach making videos now. But how did you learn to- Sure... make videos?
Yeah, yeah. Step one, inspiration. So, you know, have you... You know who Virgil Abloh is? Of course. [laughs] Yes, I've heard of him. Yeah. Yeah. [laughs] The 3% rule is the thing that he popularized, right?
You take, like, three of your favorite creators, the people that inspire you, and you, you create an amalgamation of, like, their styles, and you change it, like, by 3%. Mm-hmm.
That's essentially what I did at every step of the creating process, right? When I was making college vlogs, it was the, the people that were big in the college vlog space.
And then when I started making more cinematic stuff, it was other short-form and long-form creators that I really look up, looked up to. Mm-hmm. So that's, I think, the inspiration behind it.
Find the recipe and cook it yourself. Essentially, yeah. Yeah. And then you iterate and see what you liked, what you don't like, and that's essentially how the learning process went for me. It was as simple as that.
Over, like, over, like, two, three, four years. How long did it take until you started making stuff you felt was like... You're like, "This is really cool"? I think it was three years. Yeah. Yeah.
So my, my last few videos on YouTube, I was so proud of. They, you know, they didn't get the traction that I thought it deserved. Mm-hmm. But that's because I wasn't playing the game.
I was playing it the, the artist mindset. Yeah. So. You were making what you wanted, not the algorithm. Exactly. Let's talk about production now. Assume I don't know anything.
Assume that the listener doesn't know anything. Mm-hmm. How do you go from ideation through planning, scripting, through shooting, through post-production? How do you make a good video? Yeah, sure.
It's a very simple process that you just have to rinse and repeat over and over with. Mm-hmm. Step one is brainstorming. So for me, that looks like, I just have my Notes app on my phone.
I have a doc just dedicated to ideas that come up. And, you know, when your mind isn't actively thinking, like let's say you're taking a walk or you're driving, that's when those ideas really come.
Or that you see some media that you really like, or you're scrolling and you really like it. The first step is always brainstorming, right?
That, that's where I identify the inspirations as well as the core message that I think would be really interesting to speak on. Mm. So after doing that, the next step is the actual... So step one is brainstorming.
Step two is creating, and creating is... The first part of that is writing the script. So
for me, that just looks like sitting in front of an empty Notion doc for like eight hours until, like, [laughs] you know, I get out of writer, writer's block, and I, I, I can actually portray the message in the way that I want to.
Well, one question about the script. So, um- Yeah... I'm curious if you script this into it. A lot of your videos, not all of them, but there'll be...
I mean, obviously there's always an interplay between the, the voiceover and the video, but there's times where, like, y- the, it's kind of just a voiceover, and then suddenly you in the video turn to the camera and say- Oh...
the words in the voiceover too. So that tells me- Yes... that, like, there is a high depth of planning and, like, of every moment.
You're, you're, the, you're writing the voiceover and, like, block in, like, the shot list at the same time- Mm-hmm... and, like, how these overlay. So I'm really interested in, like, the technical aspect of that.
Yes, exactly. So after the script is written, just the pure dialogue, I essentially create a two-column chart. The left side is the script, the line of the script. The right side is the, the visuals that you're seeing.
Mm-hmm. So that's essentially how I plan the shot list. Like, maybe the first line will be speaking to the camera, where it's just me talking to the camera.
Maybe the next line under that is shooting some, like maybe a shot of my desk, and then I have voiceover on top of that. So everything is planned to the T before I even start filming. Oh, wait.
So that- Sorry, real quick. Are you, are you doing this more, um... Like, is it always script first, like, like voiceover first, say? Or do you...
Like, what's the percentage of, of shots that are script first versus, like, shot first? It depends on how lazy I'm feeling. [laughs] You'll notice in my last few videos, everything is voiceover. Mm-hmm.
It might look like I'm actually talking to the, to the camera, but it's all dubbed.
Um, because I've noticed that the sound quality changes if you're talking into a mic to a computer versus, like, you're outside and you're, you're talking to the camera. Less, less control. Yeah. Yeah.
Yeah, so, um, yeah, it just, it just varies on how I'm feeling, essentially. Uh, one, one-Pure gold fact about content creation on social short form is you wanna start showing your face first, showing your face first.
You know, like, on YouTube you have MrBeast's thumbnails where- Mm-hmm... someone's face is always on there. Yeah. That actually works, right?
[laughs] So that's the golden rule that I always stick by, but other than that, it's, it's free game. Mm-hmm. But the more face you show, the, the better I'd say. How long are your, your reels recently?
Anywhere from 40 seconds to one minute. Yeah. So okay- Yeah... let's say a one-minute video, how long does that take you to produce from the brainstorm stage through the shooting and post-production?
Around 20 to 25 hours I'd say these days. Mm-hmm. Um, scripting takes a very long time because if you, if you wanna have a really neat polished story, you know, that takes a very long time to do.
But also the shooting aspect, my stuff is generally pretty technically complex. Mm-hmm. Like, you have lots of lighting differences and then... But the nice thing, it's al- it's all shot in my room. Yeah.
So it saves a lot of time that way. Um, so making sure that I stick to that artistic element, 'cause I really enjoy that personally, I spend way more hours just doing that. And then editing, that takes forever as well.
I often have to reshoot- Yeah... because it just doesn't hit like I want it to. And it's often not just you.
Like, I mean, it's mostly you in these videos, but sometimes you have other people in and, like, y- you make it complicated, and that's why it's a good product. That's why it [laughs] that's why it works.
But, but you do make them really complicated. I'm very lucky to live with a few other content creators. Mm. So we just help each other out all the time. Don't call it a hive house. It's not a hive house.
[laughs] It's a... We're just dudes living together to save money in LA. [laughs] That's what it is. Uh-huh. There's no glamour to it, but, um, it, it's, it's very fun. Mm-hmm. 'Cause we all have...
Like, the camera that I'm using right now is my friend's camera. Okay, one last question about this is the difference between producing a short form and a long form.
Um, and specifically what I mean by that is, like, the more producing for the algorithm.
So what, over the years of, like, shifting more into Instagram, uh, what have you learned to kind of bake into the process, maybe subconsciously, to actually make sure your videos hit and, and, and reach, you know, half a million plus people?
I'd say the number one thing now that I would always put in my videos is 50% of your effort is in the first two seconds. Hmm. So 10 hours of effort into making sure the first two seconds are as good as possible.
'Cause in this short form world where everyone's attention spans are completely cooked and no one's gonna stay for your video,
you need to really hook them in really well, or else there's no point in even making the rest of it. Yeah. That's the...
From the artistic lens, it's kind of a sad reality that we live in, but it's very competitive, so in order to make this work, kinda have to play that game. Um, if being a part of the creator economy is the goal, right?
Yeah. If you wanted to just make art, it doesn't matter. But, um, in order to, to get engagements, that's kind of what you need to do.
From a cinematic standpoint, varying your shots from super close up in your face- Mm...
to the medium shot of half of your body to wide shots where it shows your environment, making sure you always switch between those, um, it, it keeps things fresh. This is the same idea- Kind of like c-...
that we were talking about earlier about texture. Exactly. Yeah, you were about to say that. Exactly, yeah. [laughs] Yeah. [laughs] You're right.
Um, so, so, so the visual texture to that is very important just so that the viewer doesn't get bored. Mm-hmm. Your goal is essentially to minimize any potential points of boredom,
or else at that point someone will leave the video for another one- Yeah... for that dopamine hit essentially, so.
Um, you made a video last summer, this was shortly after you had, you know, decided to quit the job you'd been offered in tech, it was shortly after you'd launched Creativerse.
You made a video about how you were burnt out and you'd been spending hours and hours and, and even months making videos, and you couldn't bring yourself to post any of them.
I'm interested in what that creative block you were running into was and how you finally got around it. The biggest personal thing that I grapple with all the time is I, I, I really want it all.
You know those principles I mentioned earlier? Yeah. I, I often find myself in decision paralysis because I want to find a solution that perfectly fits everything.
So at this, in this season of my life where, you know, I've been post grad for almost a year now- Mm-hmm...
I'm learning to pick and choose which principles to focus on more so that I give myself that, that creative freedom. Mm. I don't have to be bound to every single little thing to make that all work.
And one thing that I noticed is it's very difficult to have a really sustainable, profitable business off of purely arts. It's possible, but it's very difficult. Mm-hmm. So... And my, my reason for...
Well, the reason why I think that is, you know, for arts, the value add is purely, it's emotion, right? It's feeling seen by the, by the viewer. But art is usually meant for appreciation and sharing some sort of story.
Well, let's be honest, like, whether it's music or film or, or painting, sculpture, whatever it is, the people who... generally, the people who make, you know, the, the eye-watering numbers from art, like,
the ar- the artist has a gallerist, a dealer, right? The musician- Mm-hmm... has a manager and an agent. Like, there's always another party handling the business, you know, pr- and protecting the artist from that aspect.
Mm. Exactly. So it makes it difficult to do everything well as a one-man show. Mm-hmm. So I, I've, I've really been thinking about what my value add can be in order to live the life that I want in the future.
And for me, the, the tangible skill that I can provide value to other people with is marketing.
So I'm lucky that the artist side of me has a- been able to support and give me the experience I need in marketing in order- Mm... to take the next step in my career.
Um, but I'm starting to, for now, pause a little bit more on the artistic side and just do that more as a hobby rather than trying to hit, like, fill, fill all the holes at once. Yeah. Right?
And just focus building my career as a person, a, a, hopefully a thought leader in marketing at the very end. Yeah. In 10 years, that's, that's my goal there. So, um- At the very end... next half- You're gonna...
10 years is not the very end. What are you talking about? [laughs] You're gonna be a young man then. [laughs] True, true. The, the, the next season of my life. Yeah, yeah. The next season of my life.
I'll say, I'll say that. Okay. Yeah. Um, okay.
I do wanna talk about-The, uh, 100K per month series, which you started, um, at the start of this year on, I think, I think it was January 1st, you know, 365 days to make 100K per month, and you changed the goals this time, and I'm sure they've changed since.
Uh, but the goals this time, or like the breakdown of that 100K, were 15K in brand deals and UGC, 60K building the creatorverse, 10K monetizing your newsletter, 5K speaking engagements, 5K artwork, 5K client work.
So this has changed a little bit since, um, since the, the 125 days to 10K series. Tell me, like, why you decided to do this thing again and how it's going. We are... As we record, it's March 20th, so you're like,
what is this? Like almost 90 days, 80 days or so into it. Mm-hmm. So made a whole bunch of progress, right? 27K, that's essentially a one-fourth of that whole challenge- Mm-hmm... goal.
This series, this, this style of kind of throwing your backpack over the fence and publicly announcing this type of thing is really good for motivation, and I, I really recommend it for anyone who wants to really push themselves and go 100%, 1000% in one direction.
Mm-hmm. The problem I've noticed is deep inside I don't think I'm as motivated by the, the money aspect of things. It's kind of more a viral tactic. I felt, I felt that way- Yeah... the past few, past few weeks.
I think what I care way more about is the, the learning aspect, and as I told you in the beginning, that learning aspect has really plateaued, so I don't want to continue going down this path.
Sure, I can make 100K if I work really hard. It could be possible, but what, what, what will me in 10 years be really proud of me doing? Mm. Learning all these skills that can really progress
what I can do, right, when it comes to the fulfillment of my principles. Like, learning is definitely way more important than just- Mm... chasing the, the, the money and the financial stability there. Yeah.
So, um- One, one thing you said there, you said the throwing the backpack over the fence, and that's something you said in that 2020 YouTube video about, um, learning how to do photography too.
And it struck me because- I did? Yeah, you did. Uh- [laughs]... it... there's even, like, a video of somebody doing it. Um- [laughs] No way...
and it struck me 'cause I haven't heard that phrase before, but I totally understood it, 'cause now your belongings are over there and you have to go get them. Um,
I bring this up too because I wanted to ask your advice on, like, coming up with a format and coming up with a series, because, like I said earlier, this idea of, like, you know, most authors write the same book over and over.
Again, you're talking about this backpack over the fence for this series you're making in 2025, and that's the same concept you were talking about for your video in 2020. So it strikes me that, like [smacks lips]
I don't know, maybe a challenge you're trying to surpass right now is, like, [smacks lips] how do I tell a- the... another story? Like, I don't... Uh, maybe I...
not to diagnose you on, on pod here, but, like, it, it strikes me that that might be the learning thing you're talking about and the creative challenge where, like, you've been in this, you know, throw the backpack over the fence, make the videos about building in public, and, like, trying this challenge, um, concept, and they've worked really well, and they keep working really well,
but you're kinda getting tired of it. Yeah. I think the... I haven't, I haven't focused on this question as much. You know, with, with the whole Stan opportunity happening- Yeah...
and really shifting my mental efforts towards there. That actually has been a really good thing, 'cause now I can focus more on the arts,
not think about what really does well, and just make what I actu- what I actually enjoy. Yeah. 'Cause me in 10 years will be very happy that I did that in the moment. Um,
if I were to provide advice to anyone looking to start their content creation journey, the most important thing is this is a 110% in type of thing. Mm-hmm.
It's very difficult to compete against the other people who are, are 100%, 110% in if you're just 50% in. So as a result, your... the content that you make has to be really aligned with your long-term personal goals.
Like, sure, you can, you can make a lot of really funny content and be known as that funny person, but in the long term, if your goal is to monetize and build a business, that not, might not be the best way to do it, right?
So the first step is reflection on your personal goals first. Mm-hmm. And the second is once you identify that
niche or style of content that you would enjoy the most, it's looking at the w- the people that inspire you within there and take 3%. I mean, make a 3% difference and just try it out.
The, the number one thing, number one most important part about content creation, and no one talks about this, okay? Number one most important thing is recalibrating.
It's after you finish that first video, you have to analyze it and see what you need to change to make the next version of the same video. Mm-hmm.
'Cause that's, that's the only way that you'll really learn and get better, 'cause I feel like most times people have this great idea, they try it, it doesn't do well.
Maybe c- maybe the video idea is perfect, but your execution just wasn't the best. Mm-hmm. Right?
So in order to hone in your, your ability to execute well on the video topic, you have to try it multiple times, 'cause for many of these people that are successful online, that first skit they made was probably terrible, right?
But after 10 iterations of that skit, they slowly pushed that curve more to the success end of things. So- And the challenge is in knowing all the different possible factors you could tweak. I think, like- Mm-hmm...
I've seen people talking about, like...
People on Instagram, people who sign up for Creative Spotlight and, like, you know, reply to the welcome email and, and say what they're doing, and they're like, "I'm posting all this stuff on Instagram. It's...
Nothing's happening." And I... They link it, and I look at it, and it's like they... there's some good idea here, but they're failing to look at the production, to...
They're failing to look at, like, other creators who get a lot of, you know, views and look at the editing style, look at the camera they're using, look at the lighting. Like, I think that is something that
more peopleThat, I mean, I have difficulty sometimes with this in the newsletter too. What are all the different things you could tweak? What are all the different dials? There are more than you think.
Which ones should you tweak slightly? Why? When? Like, you know, every time I send out...
E- every time I publish an episode of this podcast, send out an issue of the newsletter, the next week I look at the numbers, how did it perform, how did it perform compared to the last one?
What do I think are the reasons this one did better or worse? What could I change next time? But it's really easy
to get caught in, like, the same things you're always looking at, and fail to look at, like, another thing, that if you just tweak that. You have to always be...
Not always, but you have to have seasons of questioning more of your assumptions than usual. Right. And I think many people see the overnight successes of social media and say, "This, this is a silver bullet.
You don't have to work hard, you just grind and it'll, it'll just work." Mm-hmm. I very much am against that mindset, you know. Like any other profession, you just have to spend time in it.
And in social media, it's intentional consumption. Mm. Right? You know, all too often they say, "I'm researching, I'm researching." [laughs] You're just scrolling on Reels, man. Come on. Buddy, don't I know that.
[laughs] Exactly. Plus I'm looking for a new creator to interview. [laughs] No, I got you, I got you. Yeah. That happens to me too. But- Mm...
yeah, just making sure that you, you, you seek inspiration, you find the people that really inspire you. Actually, the next step there is watch every single video they've ever posted. Mm.
I think I learned so much about the social media content journey because I wrote these case studies where I break down these, these, these creators' paths. Mm-hmm. Right?
You know, you've heard the quote, like, the best way to learn something is to be able to teach it yourself. Mm-hmm.
I feel I gained so much out of writing these case studies, because it forced me to really break down myself and critically think about how, how did this person really grow their social media following?
Or how did they build their business? So I think you really have to be your own little detective, and search and find every reason why they should have won or shouldn't have. Yeah. Right?
This is- But- This goes back to that, those three, the three secrets that you ha- had in that one video: stakes, building in public, being an expert. You know, the stakes are... Or it starts with the building in public.
Like, even, like, not just that Creator Verse is this, like, thing that you've been building in public, but that, like, you are learning in public.
Building in public and learning in public being the same thing really, um, and, like, the project being to learn, but building an audience and even making money on it by learning in public.
Um, and then the stakes is just like, will he learn it? Will he get better? Will the next one be better than the ne- be- better than the last? Mm. And then the expertise is just, like, every issue
is, look, you've learned a little bit. Look, I studied this. Um- Mm. And again, it strikes me that, like, this is such a style that you've developed with the 10K per month, the 100K per month.
It's the same structure that continues to work really well. Um, I want to talk about Creator Verse a little bit one more time.
I watched a video from day 78 of building the newsletter, and you said that at that point you had just over 5,000 subscribers. Um, I'm curious where it's at now, if you're willing to share.
Uh, and regardless, I'm curious where those 5,000 people came from, and where the people who are here now came from. How have you... How did you actually build that list? Yeah.
So yeah, the, many of these newsletter creators I looked up to, they all started with some type f- or text-based platform, right? Yeah. You have Twitter, you have LinkedIn. Yeah.
I didn't have expertise in that at all, so my, my part- my business partner and I, Ryan, we decided to go and create the Instagram to newsletter funnel. Yeah.
Um, and Ryan's content, as you've seen, um, it's case studies. So that pairs very neatly with the case studies that we write. So it's a case study video that's kind of a brief 60-second breakdown- Mm...
that prompts the user to comment a word. And if they comment the word, we'll give them the actual full case study in return for an email to join the newsletter. So- Like, do you DM them and do this?
Do you have, like, an automation to do this? Yes. So it's auto- There's automation, yeah, for that. Um, so that, that's all fully automated. And the- What's the product you use? So we use ManyChat. Mm-hmm.
And then we also use make.com to- Mm-hmm... send the ManyChat email over to Beehiiv. Yeah. So that's the whole workflow. Currently we're sitting at around 12.5K subscribers. Um, so- Almost entirely from this play?
Or entirely? Yeah. Wow. Entirely from that, plus, you know, the referrals and- Yeah, yeah... um, digital products. But vastly from Instagram.
Um, and I haven't seen much of this happening, at least in the newsletter world. Yeah. It's all Twitter, LinkedIn, so it's an interesting way to approach things.
So his videos, I mean, you're not him, so I don't know how much you know about his process, but I'm sure you know enough to, to answer this. Uh, again, you said they're like one-minute long case studies. It's...
There, there are, like, some video animation stuff, post-production stuff, but a lot of it is, like, you know, him cut out, green screened against, like, background and maybe sometimes it's just a slideshow of this creator's stuff.
Again, there is more to it. But how long... Do you know, like, what it takes for him to produce one of those? It can take for him around... So the, the scripting part is really difficult. Mm-hmm.
Um, when you watch the video, it's just the, like, sprouting out facts, it seems like, but behind the scenes, you have to really understand that creator really well, read everything that they've ever done.
And you have to really be economical- And then-... with, with the words, the word count. Exactly. Every word matters. Mm. 'Cause you don't want the video to be two or three minutes. No one's gonna watch that.
So- That's... I would, I would make a two or three-minute one. [laughs] No, you, you could... You'd make it philosophical somehow. [laughs] Oh, God, nobody would watch it.
[laughs] Uh, but I would say it takes him around, like, eight, eight hours, eight to 10 hours per video. Oh. It takes quite a bit of time. Yeah. Um, but they've done really well.
So as- Eight to 10 hours then leads to hundreds of new subscribers. Exactly. Yeah.
In, I think our best performing video, um, it netted, like, 1.5K subscribers in one video.Which is crazy Do you know which one it is- Yeah... so I can look it up later? Uh, it's, it's the, the nectar video.
The nectar one. Oh, I watched that one. So I, I think it's pinned. It's pinned. Yeah, it is. I watched it. It's very, it's vastly popular. I'm gonna remake that but with 3% different and see what happens.
[laughs] Okay, okay. [laughs] So his, his-- that video in particular, plus the first few videos he posted did very well. Mm-hmm.
As a result, we noticed that everyone started copying it, like everyone, and even to the point where we even decided- Started getting 3%ed. Yeah.
We, we got 3%ed, but people literally went word for word, and then that kind of pissed us off, but, you know, that- Oh, yeah... social media, right? That sucks.
One thing that's interesting to me, you moved to LA a couple years ago now, a year and a half ago, I don't know.
Um, in your summer 2023 video, "Feeling Lost in Your 20s," you had said then that specifically your biggest dream was to become a filmmaker, and I'm curious what you think of the relationship between Hollywood and filmmakers, and I'm, I'm thinking of, you know, uh, those brothers who made their name on YouTube and then made that movie, "Talk To Me" with A24 or MrBeast with the Beast Games on Amazon.
These are two very different things, but, like, the relationship between these creator filmmakers in Hollywood, if-- to the extent that you've thought about this.
Creating as a marketing tool, I don't think will result in, like, Hollywood and cr- the content creation world getting close together.
But if I look at the artist side of things in the creator world, I very much see huge strides towards connecting those two worlds. Have you heard of Creator Camp by any chance? Yes.
I follow somebody from there on LinkedIn. [chuckles] Well, well, for these people, it's essentially bridging the world between traditional media and the creating world.
So they're-- they have a film festival coming up in the next month where content creators are essentially making short films.
So that's kind of bridging that gap, and their, their, their mission, their thesis statement is that the next generation of filmmakers will come from the create- content creation world. Mm-hmm.
So they're spearheading that effort, and before this, they had, like, s- little Creator Camp, like, camps. Mm-hmm.
It's like one week you spend time with creators in some very remote place, and I was actually a part of this cohort back in, like, Sep- like, September 2023-ish. Mm-hmm.
Um, and that's when I got to meet the people thinking this way, and it's very, it's very much content creation as an art form, as a way of expression, as opposed to the marketing way of seeing things. Mm-hmm.
So it's very interesting seeing the dichotomy there.
You know, uh, this is a great transition, uh, [chuckles] to my next question, which is about your, your new job at Stan and what you're gonna be doing there, where, again, you didn't necessarily study what you're gonna be doing for Stan in college, but you taught it to yourself by, by just doing it.
So tell me, um, about your decision to join Stan and what you're gonna be doing there. A few months ago, I realized that along with making art, I just really enjoy marketing, right?
And I didn't study marketing in college. I studied computer science, but the, the storytelling aspect of all that I think really intrigues me. Mm-hmm. You know, you have, like... You have the Nikes.
You have, you have Ben & Jerry's. You have, like, Jack Daniel's.
Like, all those companies from back then, they're just, they were masterclasses in storytelling, so how do I shape that in a way that can let me [chuckles] actually make a living, right?
Make a sustainable living where I can, you know, create, but also in the confines, the, the structures that we live in today. Mm-hmm. Right? How do we make content work at scale in a capitalistic world?
I've noticed that, yeah, it's the marketing. So at Stan specifically, my goal here is to really revamp the content, uh, to, to really let the... The, the main emotion that Stan really stands for is aspiration.
It shows that, you know, anyone can really make a living in the social media world. Mm-hmm. Right? And Stan kind of is there giving them the shovels to do that.
So that's a very powerful message, especially with many people are pretty disillusioned with, you know, the state of corporate these days. Um- The American dream that you and I were talking about- Yeah...
way back at the beginning of this. Exactly, so we want to be able to kind of, you know, make that more accessible to people. So how do you do that?
You have to s- you have to spread the message, and that's where my job here is going to be. Um, and then secondly, it's also writing their newsletter. Mm-hmm. So that's something that they've been focused on.
It's a huge growth lever, and they're so ready for it.
Um, and I feel like I'm very lucky because I feel like I have the perfect skills that really complement what they're looking for, so it's the combination of those two things. Totally. Yeah.
I, I wish you all the success in doing that. Thanks. Thanks. [laughs] Um- Appreciate it... last, last thing.
You gave some good advice earlier, but if there's anything you didn't say, advice you would give to people trying to find a way to monetize, um,
through content by being a creator, you having, like, tried many different ways to do this, anybody after that same basic goal, what advice would you give them?
Don't get too, don't get too blinded by the, the success stories that you, you see all the time. Like, this type of work, doing it full-time, takes so much effort.
Like, I, the, the, the dollar per hour of what I make doing the work that I do [chuckles] is, is very low because, like, every single waking moment is built towards making this dream come true. Mm-hmm.
So, um, I think before you begin, you have to really reflect on what your principles are, and I, I have an exercise for this.
I, I love this exercise, and it's helped me so much, um, in determining kind of where I want to take my life's trajectory. You open up ChatGPT or Claude or any of-- your favorite AI, right?
And just tell it all of the goals and the dreams that you have, like, everything.
Like, like, give it everything you have, and then ask it, "Tell me a story about a day in the life of my future self according to these principles I've laid out."
And it'll tell you what the day looks like from, like, the ti- time you wake up to the time you sleep, and really internalize what that looks like, and see what type of business or if social media isn't even the path to get to that goal.
Because you see online all these, like, easy get rich quick type of things, and, um, people fail to really focus on what they truly want. Mm-hmm.
And I feel like it's easy to get blinded by, you know, what people are trying to sell us, essentially. Yeah.
'Cause, 'cause as content, as a mar- as, as a growth lever for marketing becomes more and more popular, people will get better and better trying to sell you on some sort of dream or- If it was so easy to get rich quick, everyone would be rich.
That's true. That's true, yeah. So it is really hard.
It, it's not gonna be easy, but this path, if you align with it, it can give you all of the things that you're ever looking for, as long as it fits with what you're looking for in the beginning. [gentle music] So
that's... Uh, just, just be introspective and be very careful with these decisions, I'd say. Identify your values and, and live a life according to them. That's good advice. Exactly. Well- Exactly...
thank you for coming on. Uh, where would you like people to, to find your work? Well, I think-- Thank, thanks for-- This, this is actually the first time that anyone's given me this opportunity. So Instagram, thomasyeum.
Um, my last name is spelled Y-E-U-M. Um, I currently make content teaching artists about entrepreneurship and mindfulness.
Um, and I feel like these days I'll shift more to the art side of things, just what I really enjoy as a hobby. Mm-hmm. So yeah, that's, that's what it is. Check him out. Thank you for coming on.
And listener, I will see you next week. Goodbye. [outro music]