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Hey, anyone wanna talk about UX design? 'Cause I'm just curious. Why did you feel the need to start your own? What did the other communities not have that you needed?

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I just wanna make it fun and make everyone feel welcome. But I'd also love to know where these 150,000 people have come from. We have an Instagram, 2 million to- Your Instagram account has 2 million followers?

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Yeah, our new one. Let's talk about money a little bit. Last year we made about $100,000 in brand deals, so I'm hoping to double or triple that this year. I've seen very few posts that have more engagement than that.

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Do you know around how many, uh, views it has? It has 75 million. Jesus. Wow. [laughs] Yeah, LinkedIn, man. Welcome back to the Creator Spotlight podcast.

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My name is Francis Zierer, and on this show I speak to creators about the craft and business of being a creator, and what that even means.

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Today, we're speaking with Grace Ling, founder of the thriving Design Buddies community, which turns five years old this month, has over 150,000 members, and generates $1 million in ARR.

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She is also a talented content creator, and is on all the usual platforms, but has found particular success on LinkedIn, where she has nearly 50,000 followers.

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Finally, she's the co-host of a new podcast called How Creators Make Money. Grace, thank you for coming on. Thanks for having me. I'm very excited. Yes, no, of course. Been a big fan of your podcast too. Thank you.

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Yes, I, you sent me the media kit for, for your own podcast, and I was surpri- not, maybe I don't know if I was surprised, but it was, it was a nice surprise to see Creator Spotlight referenced on there, on your, like, uh, market landscape [laughs]

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Venn diagram. [laughs] I love podcasts. I listen to so many of them. Mm-hmm. And you've been on quite a few. Um, but this is your first time hosting one with, uh, How Creators Make Money.

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We'll get, we'll get into that in a second though. Um, I wanna talk about Design Buddies first, but- Mm-hmm...

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before we get into that too, I would love to situate myself and our listeners, um, and have you tell me when you're talking about design and the type of design that Design Buddies refers to, what are we discussing?

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What kind of work is this? What does design mean in this context? Mm-hmm. Design Buddies mainly started as UX design, which is user experience design, product design.

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Um, so I would say, like, 70% of our members are interested in that.

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We have a lot of people, like, in graphic design, illustration, art, as well as, like, product managers and engineers and founders who are just interested in design too.

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Um, so I actually made Design Buddies because I, I felt like the design world, um, five years ago when I was a student, it was very gatekeep-y, and- Mm... I just wanna make it fun and make everyone feel welcome.

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Um, so it started as U- UX design because I was personally a UX designer, um, but we're trying to expand beyond UX design to, like, graphic design, art- Mm...

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and all, all sorts of design, but mainly right now it's UX design. Mm-hmm. Um, and so what is Design Buddies? I know, I believe it's a Discord. I think there's courses.

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What are all the different things that together make up Design Buddies? We have so many things. Overall goal is to help increase the opportunities for designers. Mm-hmm.

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And we do this by working with companies to hire designers.

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We do this by providing programs for designers to get practical experience and learn design, um, events to help them connect to each other, conferences as well, and I, in my team, we also make educational content.

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So Design Buddies is not just me, but we have three co-founders and- Oh... a team of, like, awesome content creators, as well as, like, um, engineers and all of that too. Mm-hmm. So I, I think I...

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I forget if this was on another podcast or something I read on your Twitter or whatever, but when you started it, you had been participating in a number of other design-focused communities. You were trying to...

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I think you were studying, you were doing some computer science, or was it pre-med? Um, and you were- Both. Yeah, okay, both. [laughs] And you, you kind of decided, "I don't really wanna do either of these things.

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I actually wanna do design," and you started exploring different avenues into that. Um, and you participated in other communities. Why did you feel the need to start your own?

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What did the other communities not have that you needed?

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Ooh, I remember I had so much imposter syndrome when I was starting out in design, because I actually studied, like, bioengineering and computer engineering in school.

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Um, 'cause I grew up in this, like, town called Cupertino- Heard of it... California. [laughs] Yeah. And, like, everyone was like, "I wanna be a doctor, engineer, lawyer, or failure." Yeah.

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So I was like, "Okay, I'll be a doctor, engineer, whatever, to impress my parents and society." So I took on that. I, I wish I liked it. I have so much respect for people who do engineering- Mm... and doctor.

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Um, that's so much work. But for me, I just, like, felt so much imposter syndrome 'cause I changed my career so much, um, like, five times in college.

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So I didn't really know what I wanted to do 'cause I liked doing so many things. Um, which ultimately led me to quit my job a year ago.

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[laughs] But yeah, Design Buddies, 'cause, like, I joined other design communities at that time. So I made it April 10th, 2020- Mm... so it's, like, five years tomorrow that I- Wow... I made the Discord. Yeah.

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[laughs] And I just, like, wanted to make some friends. It started as a Discord. Yeah, it started as a Discord, and almost 100,000 people joined the Discord since. Yeah. Um, and

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I felt like other design communities at that time, I was, like, really scared to post in them because I remember I would ask, like, questions 'cause I didn't know anything else- Mm...

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and people were like, "Oh, educate yourself." Like, "Oh-" You kind of felt like-... it's like obvious... everything was a stupid question, and people were making- Yeah... you feel like it was a stupid question.

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Yeah, that's the vibe I got from the responses I got from, like, certain design communities I was, happened to be in. Um, so I was like, oh, I just wanna, like, wanna make some friends and learn design.

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I don't think people need to be so, like, gatekeep-y and stuff. Mm-hmm. So I made a Discord, and it grew a lot. I think we had our first 1,000 members in the first month.

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Um, 'cause I have, kept hosting, like, cute little Zoom events where we would, like, make something in Figma together- Mm... and kept growing in that way.

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And then I feel like COVID was a unique time because people were seeking, like, community. Mm-hmm. And so I just came in at the right time too, so it grew really fast. Yeah.

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I w- I was gonna ask, uh, where those first, first 1,000 people came from, but if it was, like, right at the beginning of COVID, that it was a time when people were very open to joining things. Mm-hmm.

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So it was kind of just like, like, were, was it on Reddit? On Twitter? Like, where were these, where did these 1,000 people, like, find the Discord from?Yeah.

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Before I, I barely knew anyone in design when I started Design Buddies actually. So I was very active in Facebook groups. Oh. This is so random, but in Zoom, um, there's like the Zoom University teens...

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Zoom University memes or quarantine teens, like the whole like meme series. [laughs] And there's like subtle Asian traits. Uh-huh.

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And particularly this group, um, Asian creator, creative network, so it's just like generally creative people were in like this Facebook group. It was pretty big, and I, I like that group.

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I made a lot of friends in that group. Mm-hmm. So I was just like posting in the group, "Hey, anyone wanna talk about UX design?" Yeah. 'Cause I was just curious. I wanna learn more, and I...

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These, this group seems friendly, um, unlike the other groups I was in. So and then like 300 people commented on it. Oh.

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And so I added them all to like a chat, a Messenger chat, and it was just like chaotic, so I made the Discord the day after. Yeah. Um- That's sweet. Um, real quick. Mm-hmm.

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So it's really interesting to me that you were doing this originally on Facebook groups. Facebook is such a blind spot for me now.

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I, I mean, in my, you know, in my teens and early college, in, in early 20s I was really active on there, but it's been since like 2018 or 2019 that I, that I just kind of totally withdrew.

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Are you still, is this still like a source of, of activity for you? Not that much. I've, I've realized I kind of withdrew from it like after 2020. Mm-hmm. But I think with the new updates Zuck shared on...

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I listened to the call in some of your podcasts, and I saw- Oh, yeah, yeah... like Zuck being interviewed. Yeah.

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And this friends tab, and he, he couldn't review like specifically 'cause under NDA, um, but like the shift towards more friends- Yeah...

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and ch- and Facebook creator funds actually pays the most that I've noticed compared to all the other creator funds out there. Mr. Beast was saying that on that interview. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

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So I, I can see Facebook kinda making a comeback. Um, and I... There's so many people on Facebook. There's probably the most people in the world on Facebook. It's like 3 billion. Yeah.

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And I, I think it became like a little bit uncool when people's parents became on it. It's like, oh, the old people are finding out, I think, I think. Yeah. Um, that's what my friends say at least.

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But I still love Facebook. I'm still active on it. I also feel like as a creator, Facebook content and as a creator, many creators make money through brand deals. Um- Mm-hmm...

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they don't really care about Facebook views. It's not like the same as like LinkedIn views or like TikTok or Instagram views. Yeah, because it's such like a- It's like a-... a generalized audience maybe. Um- Yeah...

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okay. I wanna get more back into, into that, the monetization aspect in a little bit. But going back to Design Buddies. So you said that about 100,000 people have joined the Discord.

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Um, on the website you say there's about 150,000 members. Uh, I'm sure maybe that's like newsletter people included too. Mm-hmm.

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I'd, I'd love to know how that, how you tally up that number, but I'd also love to know since the, those early Facebook days, where these 100,000 plus, 150,000 people have come from. Yeah.

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So the 50,000 is like our newsletter. Mm-hmm. And we notice like a lot of people who are in our, who are not in our Discord come to our events.

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And they like talk amongst themselves too, and like make friends through that. It's like really hard to calculate exact size- Yeah... so it's like an estimate. We have like 70,000 followers on LinkedIn.

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Um, we have an Instagram at 2 million too. Um, but I, I count... And now we also have like a Twitter and YouTube and- Wait, wait, sorry... all that. Your Instagram account has 2 million followers? Yeah, our new one.

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We're launching a new brand called Co-Create, which I can talk a bit more later. Okay. Yes. Um, but it's like the one that I run with my team. Okay.

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And so I don't really know how many engaged members, 'cause we have a lot of people who come to our events from Instagram, from LinkedIn, that are not in our Discord. Mm-hmm.

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So I just started counting them, and I just kinda like add a little buffer. Um, but it's like Discord plus email list plus like some more people. Yeah. But I, I really try to count...

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I try to like not, um, be too hung up on like vanity metrics, like community members, but really all the DMs I get- Mm. Mm... and the people chatting in the community as well. Well, okay.

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I'm curious to learn more about the Discord, 'cause this is something- Mm...

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like I'm, you know, I'm plenty active on like Instagram and, and, and, and Twitter, uh, kind of just in my personal social media usage and engagement with like, with like group chats and, and such, but I'm not in any Discords.

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I've, I think I've joined a couple in the past, but it's just not a channel I've actively engaged in. So tell me about the culture in the Discords, in the Discord, and how you've organized it.

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Like, what are the, what are the sub-communities within the community? Oh, yeah. There's so many. Um, there's always like 100, couple hundred people, like 500 people joining each week on average. Wow.

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Um, it's been- What about leaving? Are, are you... Do people leave? Do you remove people? Like, what... So I'm, I'm curious how you maintain- Uh-huh... like the health of the community in that way.

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That's a great question. I have, um, friendly moderators. Okay. And these moderators, um, I, I pick people who are already active in the Discord, and they just help remove spam.

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'Cause like, uh, the Discord's so big, it's really easy to get like random bots who join and just like spam in every channel. Mm-hmm. And sometimes the auto mod doesn't detect it, so we need people to help to remove it.

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New people coming in just to promote their own thing. Yeah, we try to like direct them to the right channel so that- Mm-hmm... general chat doesn't turn, um, just promotional.

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'Cause I've seen so many communities during COVID die because it just becomes like a promotional hell. Yeah.

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Um, so I try to like be really mindful about not heading that way, and we're going five years strong without it heading that way. Um, and that's...

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I try to be really active in the community myself as well as like having a team of moderators that's also pretty active. Um, and they just like kinda do it on their own time.

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Whenever they see a spam, they just delete it. Mm-hmm. I also have bots to remove the spam. But our moderators, there's not only they're there to like clear out the spam, but they're there to engage the community.

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Um, people who are already active and talking and welcoming new members, um, is important 'cause I feel like one feedback I got early on was like, it feels like a clique. Um, which is like good and bad. Yeah.

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'Cause I know people have branched off into their own groups, and they've found their friends through Design Buddies, which is awesome, but I don't want that to be a deter- deterrent to new members coming in.

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Um- Well, I think that, that's interesting. I want to, I wanna linger on that for a second. Mm-hmm.

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'Cause the, the, the cliqueiness, like I think in one way it is good if cliques start to form, cliques plural, within a greater community. Mm-hmm. Because what that means is like, is a, is culture is taking root, right?

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Mm-hmm. Is like things growing, um, and, and going beyond just like the initial-U- unsureness of, like, a bunch of people in a room, you know.

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You want groups to start to form, but you also want those groups to be permeable. Um, yeah, what do you think about that? [smacks lips] Yeah.

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It's always about trying to find a fine balance, 'cause we have so many people in our Discord, and there's so many people joining every day, so there's always, like, fresh, fresh people every single day. Mm-hmm.

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And I've also noticed that there's about couple hundred people who talk and, like, 10,000 people who lurk- [laughs]... every day too. [laughs] That's the internet. So.

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[laughs] That's a pretty good ratio, though- [laughs]... compared to, like, a Twitter or something. Yeah.

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So there's a lot of people lurking in the Discord, 'cause they're just, like, afraid to chat, 'cause there's so many people looking.

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So we're always trying to figure out how do we get more people talking, but at the same time, I don't think it's, like, a bad thing people lurk. We have a lot of people, like, very engaged in our events chats- Yeah...

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and in-person events, but not very active on t- Discord. So, um, try to find a fine balance. Some people, like, prefer to lurk instead of, like, talking every day. Um, another thing to know is we have...

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Design Buddies mostly mainly started as, like, mostly junior designers in the beginning. Mm-hmm. But it's been five years and we've seen these designers grow and- These juniors are, are now seniors. Yeah. [laughs] Yeah.

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They're now seniors, and now they're now, like, mentors and helping out the new seniors. So- Mm-hmm... it's, like, been really cool to see that happen.

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And most of our senior designers who are active have been in Design Buddies since they were the junior, and they- Yeah...

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received a lot of help from senior designers, um, early in their career, so just wanted to give back.

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But I would say, like, most people are pretty junior, um, looking for their first job in design, because I feel like people who are stable in their career wouldn't spend their free time talking about design outside of work.

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So actually, this is something that's always really interesting to me about, about career or about communities like this, where especially when they're oriented around getting a job, is, like, people are very...

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Yeah, people, like you said, people are very active when they wanna get a job, and there's a lot, uh, they get a lot out of what they put in.

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But if you're deeper in your career, which you're also probably older, maybe you've got a family or there's, you know, other hobby, like, whatever, you have less and less time on a, the average person, right, to par- to participate in a community that's built around this.

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Um, and I think that's such a challenge for people managing this, is, like, maintaining the supply of, like, seniority or mentorship or, like, e- experts, um, while the supply of, like, um, while the demand increases as, like, more and more people who are junior come in.

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How do you, yeah, how do you manage that? I've noticed a lot of more senior designers, they, they're, like, my in real life friends. Mm-hmm.

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So I host a lot design meetups across, like, SF, LA, around the world, and I become friends with them, and they join the Discord, and then they're pretty active in there too.

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Um, and these in-person events help people build more connection to the community. Yeah.

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Um, and the community has always been free, 'cause I never wanted to add, like, I never want to add a paywall to anybody in the world who wants to access, like, connection and free resources, and people seem to like.

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That's how it grew so fast is, like, it's always been free, so we monetize through, like- Yeah... premium products and, like, sponsorships and stuff. Mm-hmm. Um, yeah.

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And then I try, in my personal friend circle, people are pretty senior in their career.

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Um, since I kinda grew up with them, um, they've, like, be- been in design their whole career, so they're now, like, mid to senior people, and they just, like, join 'cause, uh, I don't know, I'm just friends with them in, in real life.

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Um- Which creates more accountability because- Yeah... if it's more relationships based and relationships with you, and you can kind of call on these people.

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Hey, if you're enjoying this episode, make sure you subscribe to the podcast so you don't miss next week's episode. We release a new one every Thursday. Enjoy. Okay. One, just a couple more things about Design Buddies.

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So the one million ARR, in terms of percentages of different sources, how would you say that breaks down? Mm-hmm. Yeah. So last year we made about that. Um, most of it comes from our design cohorts. Mm.

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So last year I made a big business decision by merging with this company called UX Go. Um, and me and Leon have been working together for over a year.

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Um, this is random, but how we decided to c- and come to that was he reached out to me, like, back in 2023. We worked on another- Okay... startup together, two different set of ideas together.

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We di- we, our skills complement. And, um, because we've merged, um, they have this design cohort program, and so this design cohort, it's, like, an intensive program.

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In 10 weeks, um, these, uh, designers who are usually grad students or students- Mm...

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um, or career transitioners trying to get their first job, they learn how to ship, ship a product from zero to one, all the way from, like, research to prototyping to id...

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Research, ideating, prototyping, iterating, testing, iterating and all that. Um, and the goal of that program is to try to, um, be a better alternative to boot camps- Yeah...

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which have scammed a lot of students in the past, and, like, much cheaper alternative to, like, grad school. Um- Which I saw. This is, like, um, I saw on the website. For a 10, 10-week course it's around- Mm-hmm...

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it's about $6,600, right? Yeah. And then we have about 40 students. Um, we do the, um, four times a year. Mm. Um, for four students each, so that's, like, bulk of our revenue. Mm. Um, we also do a lot of...

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I, I handle a lot of brand deals, so- Mm-hmm... brand deals is very unstable, but last year- Yeah... we made about $100,000 in brand deals. Hard to make those recurring. Yeah.

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We're re- experimenting with the recurring ones, but the, the cohort stuff, we always follow up every time, so that's the reoccurring one.

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Um, for the stuff, the brand deal stuff, mostly I'm handling that with the partnership stuff, is, um, we made about $100,000 last year in brand deals. Most of it is from events and, like, content, like videos- Yeah...

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I'll make with design tools. Um, this year it's about 40,000 so far, so I'm hoping to double or triple that this year. Um, there's a lot of money in design tools and vibe coding tools right now. Yeah.

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So I've been leveraging that too to make that reoccurring, um, trying to develop deeper relationships. The other part of revenue comes from recruiting. Mm.

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And so companies, um, would pay, like, for example, um, like, VC-backed startups would pay, like, $30,000 to match them with a founding designer. Yeah.

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And so I'm always trying to build my network, um, of, like, people hiring as well as, like, designers, like, really crack designers looking for jobs and then, like, we- So wait, wait.

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I, I just wanna bump in for a second. Yeah. Uh, uh, I, I went through your past year of tweets, and you've been using the word rizz a lot, and you- [laughs]...

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were talking about rizz as a service, which I think, like- [laughs]...

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in, in a serious manner though, like, what you're talking about is, like, your kind of fearlessness in how you socialize with people and your, like, ability to connect people and, and kind of that thick skin you were talking about.

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Like, it's clear to me that, like, from, you know, researching youFor this interview, like, you are somebody who likes connecting people and likes, and does so in kind of like a really earnest, heart-on-your-sleeve way.

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So like that's kind of what you're describing here with the recruiting, is like you have built up this network in this way, and you are, you are, like, really good at kind of like managi- you know, managing and understanding what the- the- the breadth of this network in your head too.

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And so when you say rizz-as-a-service, like in this particular case, you could, you could call your, your recruiting services r- rizz-as-a-service. Yeah, I could. I just try to rizz people up.

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I've noticed that, like, when people get rizzed up, like genuine rizz. [laughs] Like, if I really like something about someone, I will like mention it, make it clear, like, "Yo, you're- Yeah... you're like cracked, man."

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I say cracked a lot too. [laughs] Yeah, I noticed that. [laughs] I'll let them like know that too, um, 'cause I, I really appreciate people who do that, do that to me too. Mm-hmm.

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Um, yeah, so I, I feel like I've been connecting people for fun, just because the more, I feel like the more care and love I give, like just like helping people, people al- it always like- It comes back to you...

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comes back. Yeah. Yeah. Mm-hmm. So I just like help people without any expectations. Um, so I know job market sucks, and I- Yeah... I wanna help my friends get hired, 'cause I know it's, like, a really stressful time.

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So I just like started doing that, and then I was like, "Oh, there's a bunch of companies paying $30,000 for, for a founding finder's fee. Um, for a senior designer it's like fif- uh, 15,000, 10 to $15,000. Insane.

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For mid-level, $5,000. I'm just like, "Wow, this is a lot." You're like, "I know all these people." I'm just like making an intro email. Yeah. Yeah.

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So I'm always, when it comes to monetization, I'm always trying to find ways, like, hey, how can we keep the, how can we like keep the community free, um, inclusive and- Mm...

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try to help, like 'cause I, I, I made Design Buddies 'cause I felt like other communities were too gatekeep-y, and I- Yeah... never wanna be gatekeeping in any way.

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Like, I want people from like all countries in the world to access Design Buddies. Well, okay, wait. Real quick question- Mm... 'cause we've, we- we keep coming back to this gatekeeping question. Yeah.

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And to me, like, um, gatekeeping, I'm, I'm, you know, it, i- it's all, it all depends on the scenario. I, I'm pro, pro gatekeeping in that like as a, as a fil- as a filter for quality. Mm.

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And I think with a community- Mm-hmm... uh, there gets to a pr- certain point of scale where you need these filters for quality.

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Um, and s- where, where I'm going with this is like you made a post on LinkedIn recently about how you would not wanna take VC money to scale Design Buddies. And so

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there's a point where like let's say, let's say it's a community of five million people, you know, that's a cartoonishly big number from where it is today, but like then, like, it, that might be too big to manage.

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Um, so my, my question here is where is the point of scale where you think you, you, you don't know if you'd wanna surpass that?

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Like, things might start to fall apart, and you would have to institute practices or systems that you might refer to as gatekeep-y. Ooh, yeah. I mean, I, I was so pro gatekeep-y in like depending on the scenario. Yeah.

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Uh, for example, uh, my friend circle and all the parties I host, like my personal parties, it's very gatekeep-y. Well, yeah- 'Cause I only like [laughs]... 'cause this is in the real world too.

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You can't have 100,000 people at your house. Yeah. [laughs] Um, but for people, for example, the cohort- Mm-hmm... where people had to pay tuition, we're there to make sure there's accountability in it. Yeah.

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'Cause we're also paying coaches, and dedicating a lot of resources to helping them grow in their design. So we interview them. Um, they had to pay a deposit- Mm... to interview. A refundable deposit to interview.

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Um, and the interview's also a way for them to ask questions for the program too, and making sure- Make sure it's right for them... it's the right fit- Yeah...

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and they're committed, and they have to pay the tuition, um, to access these, these, the, the, the intense program. Um, so that is gatekeep-y, just because it's so much resource to curate that- Yeah...

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crowd of students, and these students collab with the startup, so it makes sure everybody's- Okay.

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So, so what I'm getting here is that like the, the community itself in terms of the Discord, newsletter, et cetera, could get as big as you, as big as it can get really, and that's not really a problem.

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But then it- it's the more like core intensive, like engaged services that you offer that then have that built in. Um, I'm also curious where, so that million dollars in revenue from last year, how does that get spent?

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I'm sure some of it's to you, some of it is to your partner at UX, G- UX Go, Leon, um, some of it's to these coaches. If you could give some sort of like percentage breakdown of, of how, how you spend that revenue. Yeah.

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Right now everything goes back into our, reinvesting into our business to throw bigger events, um, to pay coaches, to pay contractors, um, engineers. We're working on a new game, um, called Fluffle.

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It's like a cute bunny. Oh. You can like complete quests to level from your career, which is like very heavy engineering effort. Um, so it's like the engineering effort.

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We're paying video editors, um, content creators- Mm-hmm... and more stuff, um, to help grow the business. And conferences, events can be, can get- Absolutely... quite expensive too.

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Um, so right now we're inve- reinvesting everything back into it, 'cause we both have like a pretty big savings account, 'cause we both like come from tech. Um- Yeah... so try to do that.

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And on the side, um, I personally just like do a lot of content creation, like for my own personal brand. So I do a lot of brand deals. Um, okay. So five years tomorrow, which is perfect timing. Yeah.

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What are you most proud of with Design Buddies? Ooh. Oh, man. I, I just love the community. I'm just like proud of like everyone being able to like be so nice. Mm-hmm.

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And like I'm just like kinda surprised, 'cause like I just like made it for fun. I mean, I was like in my parents' house being bored and sad that it's COVID, and it has evolved to like way more.

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And I've, last year I've done a world tour. I've hosted events in 10 different countries- That's crazy... and four different continents. Basically had a quarter-life crisis, quit my corporate job- [laughs]...

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and traveled the world for six months. [laughs] But along the way I, I was like doing so many events, and like 300 people came through in our Bangkok meetup, like 200 people- Wow... in Singapore meetup.

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So I was just like, I'm really proud of like being able to like not only create local community, but global community and people starting chapters.

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Do you know where the biggest portion of the, of the non-US community is, is based or like where some large pockets are? Yeah, UK. English-speaking countries. Okay. Yeah, of course, yeah. And, um, India as well. Yeah.

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So I noticed like UK, India-In Canada That makes sense. Mm. Um, okay, I'm curious, like, your presence on, on... Let's start on LinkedIn.

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Um, so you there, you, you, you started there in 2020 just posting in earnest, I think. You're at, when I checked last night, you were at, like, 49,005 followers.

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[laughs] Um, tell me about your relationship with and evolution on LinkedIn and the- Ooh... persona that you've built up there. Yeah, LinkedIn, man. I used to think it was such an intimidating place when I was a student.

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People always, like, flexed about, "Oh my God, I got a software engineering job at FAANG company. I'm so better than everyone else." I got that kind of vibe, and I was just like, "I'm scared. I am nobody.

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Uh, what is LinkedIn?" And it kinda grew a lot. Um, I just started to just, like... I noticed in 2020 people started posting more about their life on LinkedIn. Yeah. And I was like, "Oh."

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'Cause I've actually been a creator since, like, for over 10 years, um, starting from, like, DeviantArt and Tumblr, and I've always talked about life and, like, deep stuff- Mm-hmm...

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on, on, like, Tumblr, and it grew that way. So I was like, "Oh, okay." I kinda carried that over to LinkedIn, and, um, people liked it a lot, and I started making friends, like personal friends.

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And, um, LinkedIn, I started also documenting my journey learning in public, because I was, like, really desperate to get a job, and I feel like a lot of hiring managers hang out on LinkedIn, so I wa- desperately wanted- Yeah...

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to get their attention. So like, "Oh, look at me. I'm doing-" Still, still a place to get a job at the end of the day. Yeah. I was like, "Oh, look at me. I'm doing this design challenge, so I'm building this community.

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Hire me, please." [laughs] And, [laughs] and I also, like, cold... How I got my first job at EA was I never applied. I actually, like, cold messaged- Hmm... 400 people on LinkedIn- That's how you get your job...

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for coffee chats. Yeah. And then, like, when I cold message people, I, I want something on my profile that I can see so I'm not just like a bot or like a nobody.

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I want to show that I am young, ambitious junior designer ready to rock and roll. So [laughs] I try to create that vibe of, like, giving this- Oh, you're a rockstar designer? [laughs] Yeah, rockstar designer.

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Cold monkey, whatever. Um, [laughs] unicorn design- [laughs] I don't know what that means. So I try to have that, and yeah. And then it just kinda grew that way.

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And then LinkedIn, I feel like I had moments lat- lately where I just, like, have posts that went super viral, gained a couple thousand followers from those. It kinda, like, comes in waves. Well, wait. Okay.

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So I have no stable- So your the best engaged LinkedIn post I could find, uh, is from a month or two ago. You're interviewing your, your, your quote unquote tech bro coworking crew- [laughs]...

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about the salaries, uh, which is a tried-and-true format. You're not the pers- first person to do this, like, what's your salary type of question. People love it.

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People love, people love the voyeuristic aspect of other people's money, right? Um, there's a bit of that in this show.

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[laughs] But that post has, as, as of last night, 102 reposts, 556 comments, and 11,177 likes, which is, uh, I've seen very few posts that have more engagement than that. Do you know around how many, uh, views it has?

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It has 75 million. Jesus. Wow. [laughs] On LinkedIn it's like, I think because, like, the... It's like a d- it's like a weird ratio.

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Um, there's, like, a lot of views compared to the amount of engagement it should have compared to, like, Instagram. Yeah.

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Um, I think it's because the scrolling tab, um, like, the new video tab on LinkedIn, people scroll through, and I think that counts as a view too. Yeah. You know- And I-... I don't have that on my LinkedIn app.

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I have my LinkedIn app. I don't, I, I think I need to [laughs] update my app. I know other people- Oh... who had that for months. I don't have it. [laughs] Oh, I see.

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Um, but yeah, I feel like LinkedIn has evolved into, like, TikTok a little bit. Mm-hmm. Like Gen Z TikTok, um, Gen Z career TikTok. Yeah. Um, people started posting more funny videos.

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There's this, um, person on Lin- LinkedIn named Ken Chang. He- Uh, yeah. He... Yeah. [laughs] He's amazing. Well, let... Explain him to the audience. Oh my God, Ken Chang. So just go on his LinkedIn.

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Um, I think his tagline is, like, "I wanna connect with you emotionally." [laughs] And then one of his pinned posts was like, "I sleep with a lot of women, and I let you guys..." [laughs] And then he was just like...

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I think... I'm just pull it up really quick. He's, like, the first, like, true, like, LinkedIn poster who's, like, a, a LinkedIn com- Like, he has really hit a nerve on, like, the LinkedIn comedy. Yeah. He's amazing.

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I, I messaged him, and he accepted my connection request, and he's really nice. I ha- I had a little chat with him, too, [laughs] 'cause I get, like, I like to talk to him a lot. He's a real person.

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[laughs] He is a real person. Um, so I'll just read to you. This is, like, what I think LinkedIn has evolved into, so I'll read this post as an example. Yeah. So Ken Chang was like, "I sleep with a lot of women.

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What do you think tends to impress them the most? My multiple successful companies, my vast wealth, my perfect skin? No, it's my score on LinkedIn Games." [laughs] And then it's...

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[laughs] And how many likes does it have? Oh, man, it has 6,198 likes. Yeah, there you go. And then 678 comments, 40 reposts. Man, this dude is- Wow... is amazing. He's like a legend on LinkedIn. Yeah.

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But, um, on the, on LinkedIn's side, um, there's a rise in videos. Like, there's, like... I talked to someone from the LinkedIn team. They're trying to get more people to post videos. Mm-hmm.

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Um, and part of the reason why- This clip of this very show I can promise you is going to go up there as a video. [laughs] I... Yeah, I know. I love LinkedIn video. It's like the early days of TikTok, where- Mm-hmm...

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there's not a lot of people making videos yet, and so the videos that do get posted get a lot of views. Like, a lot of my other salary videos have gotten, um, like, 5 million views, 10 million views. Mm-hmm.

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That went crazy. I don't know why. Oh, I think I know why. I can... I think I know why it got 75 million views, 'cause people were, like, mad about how much... mad about two things in the comments.

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Um, it was, like, mostly negative comments too, on LinkedIn, which is, like, so rare. I'm so proud of myself- Yeah... for getting [laughs] people- You wear, you wear the hate as a point of pride.

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Yeah, because I get people to feel something and engage, and it, it just, like... It got me, like, 5,000 more followers on LinkedIn, and [laughs] that's, like, the most engaged post ever- That's a lot... in my life.

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Yeah. Yeah. And I... And, um, people were mad about the fact that people in SF were making so much money, because I interviewed my friend Zach, who's also a big creator on LinkedIn, and he was making 500K, um- Yeah...

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TC. Not TC, probably base salary from, like, Netflix as, like, a data scientist. Yeah. People were so mad about that, and, um, they were mad that I used the word tech bro.

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Um, I live in a bubble, and I call myself a tech bro. Yeah. And I thought it was, like, a funny name, and people were, like, so...

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They took it far as, like, "Oh, no, you're, like, contributing to the bro culture and making it, like, anti-feminist." I'm just like, "Bro, that's not the point." Yeah.

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I just, like, thought it was funny and cute, and I didn't mean it that way, so people were, like, mad I did that. People thought I was, like, gross.

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Um-But a lot people recognize me on the streets in San Francisco and at events from that post. [laughs] That makes sense. And at the gym too. Yeah. From that post too. Well, okay, a couple things here. One, I think,

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you know, I, I make, I make my posts on LinkedIn too. I'm not the most active or best poster.

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I know some people who are and, you know, are really g- they, they're posting the selfies, the just the very, like, the, the jokes, whatever, um, and help contributing to this culture of, like, a anti-corporate, earnest LinkedIn content.

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But I wonder if there's, like, a limit to that. Like, it will the, like, will that ever break through into being fully a culture on LinkedIn?

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'Cause at the end of the day, this is still a platform where people go to find a job, and I think that, that's what makes it good, and that's why there's that level of accountability of people generally, like, behaving in comments and stuff.

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Um, so I was curious what you thought about that. Like, what the fu- like, 'cause if everyone starts doing earnest- Yeah... anti-corporate LinkedIn posts, then it's not as interesting anymore, right? Mm.

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I've noticed that people, maybe, like, mostly Gen Z people, wanna bring more authenticity to the workplace.

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So I feel like for years a lot of people felt like they had to conform to different cultures to fit in and rise in the corporate ladder, um, with people, um, in the workplace.

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So I feel like people bring their full self to work, and I love that. Mm-hmm. I, I always want people to, like, not have to change themselves to fit in, and I see more of that vibe coming.

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It's like people, like, show, like, "Oh, this is what I wear to work," or like, "This is my life story," or like, "This is- Yeah... 'cause I feel like people s- people spend 40 hours a week on work.

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That's, like, so much of their life, and I think people shouldn't have to change or mask themselves to fit in, and I see more of that vibe on LinkedIn.

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So I don't think the unseriousness is tied to, like, job searching, and I feel like people, like hiring managers, they also wanna be themselves too. So- Mm-hmm...

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I see more people just, like, showcasing their authentic self on LinkedIn instead of being, like, overly polished, very professional, suits and ties, all that too. Yeah.

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And I feel like LinkedIn is shifting towards more of a creator platform. I'm very bullish on, like, B2B creators, or what my friend AJ calls, like, B2B2C creators. Like- Yeah... I went to South by Southwest recently.

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I spoke there about LinkedIn content creation, and I've also went to a lot of creator events, and overall takeaways, like, Link- people are sleeping on LinkedIn.

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And they're, LinkedIn doesn't pay creators directly, but, um, for example, an average brand deal I get on LinkedIn is, like, $3,000 per post. Oh, wow. And there's a lot of...

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Yeah, 'cause, like, the audience is mostly business people, like, more B2B audience. So companies wanna pay more to attract these audience.

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I heard LinkedIn ads are also the most expensive, and, um, I feel like more brands are recognizing the power of the reach and, um, potential of LinkedIn and paying a lot of creators for brand deals. Mm-hmm.

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And I feel like a lot of creators will, are gonna migrate to LinkedIn. But also depends on niche. So I am from San Francisco.

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I've been in LA for a week now, and I've noticed that a lot of creators, I don't think LinkedIn's, uh, for every creator 'cause a lot of... LinkedIn's more, like, the business career, business creators. Yeah.

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Yeah, I'm, again- Um... 'cause it's a place you go to get a job in a white collar field. Yeah. Mm-hmm. Not, like, mo- not really lifestyle. Like, I know, I've tested this myself.

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Like, a lot of my travel lifestyle posts doesn't perform nearly as well- Yeah... as my, like, how to get a job posts on LinkedIn. Well, see, that's the thing.

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Something you said a little bit ago about, like, uh, bringing your whole self to, to work or, like, and, and displaying that on LinkedIn, like, I would actually push back on that because, b- again, like, it, your travel content not doing as well, like, that's part of it.

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There are limits, and, like, I think that's why, like, th- like, that's what's good about LinkedIn because there's this shared agreement that, like, we're here to, uh, to interact as, as professionals, right?

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But I think that's also what puts, like, a, a, a fence on, like...

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Like, some people will never, who, who might even be quite active on LinkedIn, will never be too earnest because their earnest self won't perform and what would actually even, like, hurt their careers, right?

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So w- uh, for me though, I think that's, that's ultimately a good thing because, uh, I, I'm very, like, I, I, I think it's bad that all these different social platforms collap- are collapsing into, like, trying to be everything else.

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Like, n- nobody wants X, the everything app, right? I want Twitter- Mm... the Twitter app, and I want Instagram the Instagram, and I want TikTok the short form video app, and I want LinkedIn the jobs app.

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Um, I'm not sure if I'm asking you [laughs] a question here. I'm just kinda getting on my soapbox, but... [laughs] No, I get it. Yeah, no, I agree as well. Like, I wouldn't post...

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I've just experimented with this- Yeah... and I, I feel like I have a Instagram that's more travel lifestyle, more fun, more chill, more me- You have two Instagrams too, right? I have, like, five.

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[laughs] Two that I follow. One main one, yeah. [laughs] Yeah. [laughs] But I feel like with Instagram I just have to niche really down to get more followers, and that's why. Mm. 'Cause I like to also have a nice feed.

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I don't want it to be- Yeah... like everything. That's why I have, like, five- Six, yeah... [laughs] accounts. Uh, okay. Um. Let's... Wait, let's talk, let's talk about money a little bit. Yeah.

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So you, you were touching briefly on how lucrative the LinkedIn deals can be for you. Tell me, uh, first, what was the first dollar that you made as a creator? Ooh, um,

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I feel like the most dollar as, like, a Design Buddies was, like, Adobe pay me $600 to host, like, an hour webinar, like, a workshop with them. Mm-hmm.

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Um, and I've known companies pay, like, $3,000 for, like, 30 minutes of your time- Yeah... to, like, speak to their company too. And- But that was your first. That was your first as a, your first- Yeah...

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dollar as a, as a creator. Yeah. What, uh- $600 for, like, an hour, and all I did was, like- Was it, like, a year or two in? What, how far into Cr- uh, Design Buddies was that? Uh, two years, um, into it.

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Actually a year. I can't remember. Okay. It's, like, 2021, 2022. And Design Buddies grew a lot in the beginning. Also, I did a lot of partnerships with people, like Figma, Adobe, and, uh- All the classics...

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Framer as well. The classics. Yeah. And it helped build a lot of brand credibility. And I was smaller at that time, so they're always f- they're all been free 'cause I just, like- Yeah...

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thought they were cool, and I wanted to build a relat- relationship with them. That's how they get you. Um, yeah. But that's also, it comes back to you, but it comes back to you too.Yeah.

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And, um, yeah, so I just did a lot. The- And I partner with a student organizations. Like, I try to, like...

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I notice with all students when they s- dis- they discover Design Buddies, they share it with all their friends. Mm. Mm-hmm. So it's how we grew a lot, too.

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So we just, like, build our partnerships, and it was, like, always for free. Um, and then Adobe was like, "Oh yeah, we'll just, like, pay you $600 to do a webinar." I was like, "What?

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I've just been doing these, like, three times a week for free." [laughs] I was like, "This is- You mean I get paid to do this? Yeah.

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I'm just like, all I had to do is, like, make, design a banner and make a Luma, copy and paste whatever copy they want, and show up. Uh, okay, so that's your f- first dollar as a creator.

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Um, how many different ways do you currently make money right now? And let's say, like, you can... Maybe there's two buckets here.

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Like, we kind of already talked about Design Buddies, um, so I'm more interested in, like, Grace as a creator. Hm. Yeah, so I have... I- I also have a podcast about how creators- Yes... make money.

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So I run that with my friend, Justin Nguyen. Um, we, we met on LinkedIn. He, he, he like me- [laughs] There you go...

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he messages me on LinkedIn, like, five years ago, and we just became friends, and we- we hung out a couple times in person and just, like, vibed. Um, so there- there's that podcast, and we're doing some brand deals.

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So right now we, we- we are reinvesting everything into the podcast, like hiring editors and all that, and, like, subscriptions and stuff.

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But for myself, there's, like, a podcast in Design Buddies, but I also do content creation. Um, so I also work with brands like Notion, um, Adobe, and they wanna work with Grace for Grace, not Grace with Design Buddies.

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Like- Yeah... 'cause like, I noticed that, like, my audience on LinkedIn is mostly, like, a lot of creators, founders, not exactly designers. Mm-hmm. So I have that side of me, too.

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So I make content for them, and- So they... Wait, wait, you're making content, like, for them that they post to their channels, or that you post to your channels with them tagged, et cetera, or both? Both. Both.

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Okay, yeah. So it's just, like, typical brand deals where I, like, make a video, like, a tutorial, or, like, I integrate them in my post, um, or I speak at their event.

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Uh, so there's, like, brand deal side for, like, non-Design Buddies audience, and, um, there's also... I do speaking, like, public speaking. Um, I do a lot of these pro bono as well if I think it's, like, a big audience.

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Yeah. But I feel like if it's, like, for a nonprofit, I'll do it pro bono, but if it's, like, a for-profit company and they're profiting off my likeness, then I- I charge very high for that, too. Good.

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But I feel like speaking is a really great way to build an audience and get more people into your community, so it's, like, good marketing for me. It's high touch. So I do a lot of that. Yeah.

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It's high touch, yeah, high value, getting- Yeah... you engaged, speaking. Um, so it's mainly the two main ways, and the other stuff is, like, Design Buddies. Like, just brand deals and speaking.

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Um, okay, let's talk about How Creators Make Money, your podcast, for a second. Yeah, yeah. So it's, I think there's 10 episodes out right now. Is this the first time you've hosted a podcast, or is this...

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Was there one I've missed? Yeah, first time. Um, I tried doing another podcast with Design Buddies, um, but I also felt like

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a mistake I've made as, like, a community builder was, like, I- I felt like, this is two years ago, I was, had such a perfectus mindset. Mm. I wanna be involved in everything. Um, and it wasn't really scalable.

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Like, we got- Yeah... like, three episodes deep, but I just felt like I had, I was too much of a helicopter leader, and like, I don't know, I- I've- That I- I learned not to...

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I just learned to trust, trust people to execute and help them- Yeah... bring their own creativity and recognizing my, my ideas are not always the best one. People have their own ideas.

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Well, so, so what's been the biggest learning curve for you as, uh, now that you're 10 episodes in, as, as a, as a new podcast host? Mm-hmm. What's the, what's the biggest learning curve? Ooh, it was, like...

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I feel like, um, the balance between being too scripted and- Mm...

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having a fun conversation, 'cause me and Justin, we wanted to have, like, like, a, the My First Million vibe where we're just, like, two friends jamming together- Yeah... on content stuff.

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Um, I've learned so much from him about sponsorship- 'Cause he-... 'cause-... he's podcasted a lot, too, right, Justin? Yeah. Mm-hmm.

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Yeah, he had, like, two podcasts, each with, like, 100, 200 episodes each, so he's, he's way more experience than I have. Deeper. [laughs] Yeah, and he also does a lot of p- brand deals.

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He's really good at negotiating with- Mm... his, this is the classified media for, like, college students and stuff. And so I've learned so much from him about podcasting, um, thumbnailing, um- Mm...

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writing copy, um, interviewing people. Like, he asks so, such great questions, too, when, when I see him interviewing people. Um, so there's that.

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Um, and I feel like the biggest learning curve was, like, the balance between being too scripted and just coming with topics and just, like, treating it as, like, "Oh, I'm just catching up with a friend every week," and just jiving on, talking shop.

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Yeah. And I feel like people really enjoyed the episodes where we were less scripted and it was more, like, vibes and taking tangents.

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Um, and also me, like, being in the creator economy space, since a lot of my, um, experience has been design space, uh, the creator co- I, Selfless has kind of, like, changed my life in a way that, like, I basically went- Say more, yeah...

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[laughs] 'cause, like, Justin invited me, 'cause he lives in Austin. Mm-hmm. And he's like a super connector. He knows so many people, so I was just hanging around Justin, and then I would, like, meet all his friends.

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Justin and Jerry, his other friend, that I stayed in his creator house.

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And so I was hanging around them, and they're just, like, bringing me to, like, a lot of people, and I was just like, I learned there's so many people who are cool in the creator economy- Yeah...

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space, and there's so many, like, buzzwords and just, like- [laughs]... new terms. Yeah. My CPM and all that stuff- Wait, okay... all the market- So how do you... This is something I always ask people.

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How do you define the term creator? I feel like people, for me, it's, like, sharing your content, sharing your, like, creativity. It c- could be, like, an artist, too. Mm-hmm.

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People who share their creativity, creative works online. It could be, like, in any medium, like video, um, dancing, um, drawing, um, music, knowledge, anything who shares, like, online, who shares it with people. Yeah.

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Okay, that makes sense.

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Um, that, that's basically the definition I've gotten, too, where it's, like, somebody making content for distribution online for an audience beyond people they know in real life.And also monetizing it, which I, I'm curious what you think of this idea that I've been kind of- Mm...

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r- rolling around in my head, is that the creator economy as such does not really exist, but it's a term that encompasses two labor models.

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There are gig workers who produce content for social media platforms, uh, that are monetized through revenue share with those platforms, and then there are small business owners, or large business owners, but business owners who either sell digital media products through subscriptions or sell their audience's attention to advertisers.

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So creator is a term encompassing these two labor models, the, the, the platform content gig worker and then the media business owner. What do you make of that? Yeah, it makes sense.

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I also feel like people who are monetizing from the personal brand, just like being themselves and- Mm-hmm...

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being like an entrepreneur in a way, that they monetize through their own likeness in the content they create, but also- They're marketing them- they're marketing themselves- Yeah... or their business. Yeah, yeah.

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Working themselves, and a brand wanna work with them for their likeness. They're kind of like- Kinda like you. Yeah, like- [laughs]... not really like an actor, but not... Like, I don't know. It's like- Okay, no, no.

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Wait, wait... more like an entrepreneur. So, so this is, um, this is kind of how I describe the term influencer, because to me influencer is less useful now. Creator's a more useful term.

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But influencing is something that creators can do, and what an influencer does is they're somebody who, who has this market, this, uh, audience built in on this platform, and to- they sell that audience's attention to brands, or maybe not to brands.

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Maybe, maybe they're leveraging it f- to get leads for their company or to sell the, the whatever thing they make, right? But I, that, that is a good point. That's kind of a third- Mm... model. Yeah.

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It's kinda like being an actor a little bit. Like you're- Yeah... acting for the commercial kind of. [laughs] Yeah, yeah. You're, you're selling- Yeah... your image. But also, you're the brains.

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You're the creative director too. So like, you're like kinda the whole, whole thing. It's like a founder, but also like you're acting in it. You're like scripting it. You're directing it. You're filming it.

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You're running a team. Yeah. So it's like a en- Exactly. You're a production house in one... business owner as well. You're like everything. [laughs] You're the production house. You're the actor. You're the producer.

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You're the distributor. [laughs] Yeah. [laughs] Um- Everything... okay. I know we're getting a little over, so one more question. Um, you quit your job one year ago, and you founded Design Buddies five years ago.

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It's probably not very productive to ask you what you think you'll be doing or what your goals are for five years, but maybe it is. Maybe that's something you think about.

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But in, in one year, 12 months from now, where would you like to be? What would you like to be doing? Ooh, ah.

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I struggle with this a lot, big question a lot, because I kinda live in the moment, and I feel like the moment is all we have, and I just try to like do my best and enjoy life.

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But I always like plan ahead to make sure what I'm doing in the moment correlates to those goals. Yeah. And [laughs] True. [laughs] Yeah. [laughs] Well, okay. And we, we can break this down specifically into- Yeah...

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into three things maybe. Design Buddies, um, uh, you as a creator, and the How Creators Make Money podcast. Maybe those are three buckets.

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Maybe there's other buckets that I'm not aware of, but those are the three I guess that, that we've been talking about. Mm. I really love like hosting parties. It's like really fun.

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Um, last year kinda burnt out 'cause I hosted like 34 events, 35 events, and- That's a lot... [laughs] including a conference. Yeah, I read your 2024 wrap up newsletter, and like the, the list- Yeah...

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of events there, I was like, "What?" Yeah, I don't understand either. Um- Yeah... but after taking six months to travel, I'm back. I'm fully back, and hosting events like every week again.

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But this time it's like for fun, and I'm not really monetizing from my events. Mm. I'm not having any KPIs to report to people, 'cause I just like hang out with people, just like hang out with friends.

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Um- KPI- They're not like this- The KPIs keep partying, idiot. Yeah, keep... [laughs] Yeah. [laughs] And one of the long-term goals I have is like I want like a space, like a cute mansion in like- Mm...

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all the big cities, so I can like always like... I love traveling, right? I feel like- Okay, we haven't talked about your creator house, by the way. Yeah. [laughs] That's, that's something we haven't talked...

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Maybe we should talk about that briefly. Yeah. So, um, me and my boyfriend, whose also name is Justin, we ran a content creator house together in Bali last year. Mm.

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That was one of the stops I made on my worldly travels, and it was really fun.

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We rented a villa for a month and invited our content creator friends, and we went on so many fun adventures, collaborated on content, learned from each other a lot.

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And we're doing it again in LA, 'cause I am personally... I met so many friends at South by Southwest who live in LA, and I've been having a lot of business partners here in LA too.

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And I've been in the Bay Area my whole life, and I just- Yeah... wanna explore it. So it's like kind of like a trial run. It's like, oh, how, how is living in LA like? And I love it.

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I actually am very sold on like doing half SF, half LA. Um, but kind of like getting to like the bi, like kind of like the, like two places living is like...

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I just feel like as a creator, there's so many opportunities everywhere, and I would just- Yeah... wanna be everywhere. Um, so I want- 'Cause it's easy to be, especially like when- Mm...

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being a creator and it's focused on being online, I think this is something that, that I n- need to remind myself often, is like life happens, life doesn't happen online.

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Like some things do, but like life happens in real life, and you need to be in X place to meet- Mm-hmm... Y person.

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You, you know, you're gonna have a different conversation with this person s- sitting over a drink or coffee than you are chatting in the DMs.

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Like, not that, not that it's not valuable to chat in the DMs and fun and build real relationships, et cetera, but like you can't really beat in person. Yeah, that's why.

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So I wanna have like a mansion in all the big cities, [laughs] so I can like host events. I have a venue that I can gather people. I can decorate it really cute to make content in. Mm-hmm.

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And I can have like little hubs and just like be everywhere and have a place to live. And I- Is this your dream business, is that, is that it's like Grace's like, uh, mansion network of, of creator houses?

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[laughs] I don't know, actually. I'm still figuring that out. Um, I also wanna hire like s- a cook, a driver. Uh, I wanna delegate, like someone to do all my chores, a cleaner.

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[laughs] I just like, I wanna focus on creating, and um, I just wanna like be at a point where I can hire help of everything I don't wanna do.

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Um, [laughs] that's my goal in the n- n- year, in a year or five years, actually. In a year? Okay. [laughs] Uh, probably maybe- Whoa... maybe five year- maybe five years. Yeah.

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Uh, I just wanna have the mansion, just like, yeah. [laughs] We'll see. Maybe you'll get there in one year. Uh, maybe you'll get there [laughs] in five years. We'll see.

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Um-Is there anything else you wanna, you wanna bring up before we, before we bring it to a close? Yeah.

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I also feel like I've, maybe forgot to mention this earlier, like, I actually missed working a lot when I was, like, on vacation. Mm-hmm. I just feel like I wasn't adding value to anyone's lives.

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I was just having fun, enjoying life. But that was, it was, like, a good thing too, but just like- Yeah... always trying to find a balance of, like, [sighs] focus on growing, growing my team, uh, also having fun.

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So I'll just, I don't know, it's something I'm just, like, figuring out. But I definitely want more... I guess, like, what I'm really working towards is, like, time and location freedom. I just wanna be- Yeah...

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anywhere, anywhere I want, but also growing at the same time, so.

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I know it's, like, very vague 'cause I don't really know, but I'm, I'm always trying to, like, do random things and do things that, um, grow my discipline every day.

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Pursuing work as a social endeavor, work that, work that- Yeah... connects you with other people and that helps you connect to other people. Yeah.

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I do this every day by posting on social media, like, 'cause I feel like the more I post, the more I increase my surface area of luck for more people- Mm-hmm... to discover me and collaborate with me and grow more.

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So that's, like, the tiny stuff I do every day to get to that final goal. There you go, um- And attending events too. Yeah. Where should people... You, there's just a lot of places to find your work. Yeah.

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[laughs] There's a lot. Um, so you probably can't list them all, but where should people go to find your work? Yeah. For Design Buddies, you can go to designbuddies.community. That's our website.

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We have all our, all of our links there. Um, I'm most active on LinkedIn and Instagram. So LinkedIn's just Grace Ling. I have a bunny emoji by my name. Instagram's irungracepace, I-R-U-N-G-R-A-C-E-P-A-C-E.

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Um, so I'm mostly active there. I was on Twitter, TikTok, YouTube, but, uh, I'm not as active on, on those other platforms. Um, but yeah, so, so we'll...

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And then you can join Design Buddies Discord at discord.gg/designbuddies. So hope to, hope to meet y'all. Would love to hear about your stories, and thanks so much for your interview. Yeah. Thank you for having me.

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You had so many great questions. I love how you added your own insights as well. Uh, I, I try. This was lit, no cap. I try.

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[laughs] This was lit, no cap, big facts, skibidi, rizz, mewing, giga chad, sigma, Ws in the chat. [laughs] Okay. Well, I'll take that. Thanks for coming on.

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