Welcome back to the Creator Spotlight podcast. This is our seventh episode, and today's guest is Arielle Nissenblatt. Arielle is basically a human podcast.
She runs a podcast recommendation newsletter, a podcast version of that newsletter, a podcast about podcast trailers, and a daily tips podcast.
She also works full-time at the video and podcast editing company Descript, running community marketing.
I spent an hour with Arielle talking about why you should not start a podcast, how she broke into the podcasting industry, and plenty more. As always, thank you for listening, and enjoy.
[upbeat music] For the listeners- [laughs] Who is Arielle Nissenblatt? Um- And what do you do? Yeah, good question. Um,
I guess my main thing is podcasts all the time, and the reason I am stumbling is because I try to challenge myself to introduce myself differently for every interview because it gets boring for me, but it also gets boring for the listener/reader.
So I am obsessed with podcasts. I- everything I do revolves around how am I gonna listen to the next one, how am I going to help you find your next favorite podcast, and how do we grow the pie of the podcast space?
So I'm constantly thinking about that. I work full-time for Descript, which is a recording and editing video and audio software.
I manage the community there, and on the side for the past seven-plus years I've been running a podcast recommendation newsletter called Earbuds Podcast Collective, and along with that newsletter comes a podcast about podcasts, which is called Feedback with Earbuds, and a bunch of other podcast-related projects.
I manage a Discord for podcast creators and lovers. I have a podcast about podcast trailers called Trailer Park: The Podcast Trailer Podcast.
I have a daily podcast called Daily Tips That May or May Not Help You with Arielle and Ned, one-minute-long tips for your life. And, um,
I speak on a lot of panels and do a bunch of keynotes about podcast marketing mostly, but also about podcast discoverability and anything as it relates to podcasting.
And then I also do some consulting on growth strategy and marketing for podcasters. And also- Nice...
love to tell people if their idea is viable or not, so I do a lot of, you know, "Arielle, can you listen to this, uh, first few episodes and let us know what you think?"
And, you know, "Is there actually a, a market fit for this?" And then I get to say whether it's shitty or not, so I love that.
You know, I don't think I've ever heard anyone say the word podcast so many times- [laughs]... in quick succession. This is my problem. Uh. [laughs] Yeah.
No, so what I, when I was looking at your website too, I was like, "Okay, where do I start? Who is this person?" Like, where do I dig into to find things to talk about?
And I was like, this is like, there's like 10 links that you have there on, like, the things you're doing. And I'm like, are these all things she's doing right now? And then I update them. Like- I should update them.
Yeah. [laughs] Well, but, but, but when you were just saying it, it's like these are s- this is so many things, and, like, that's... I don't know.
But anyways, so before we get into all those things, uh, I don't wanna, like, repeat things that I've heard in other interviews. People can go, I mean, we'll get, surely some of the things will be repetitive.
But one of the things that I did hear was that you got into podcasts, uh, like in 2014. You were, you had this job. People were listening to Serial.
You wanted to, you know, join in the fun and get into it, and, like, ever since that, you know, you kind of, you bit the fruit. That was the, the moment that you became addicted to podcasts, as it were.
Um, not to use such harsh language. Uh, but- Addicted. [laughs] Yeah, addicted to podcasts. Anyways, so- No, but it's true... three years later, though- I, I am. You, yeah, you are addicted- Yeah... to podcasts.
Let's be clear. Yeah. Yeah. Uh, so three years later though- [laughs]...
you started the newsletter, and I understand it was like y- and you started the podcast two years later, but I think with the newsletter too, it was like you kind of wanting to make sense of, like, all this consumption- Yeah...
you were doing around podcasts and organize it and navigate it. So I'm curious, was that just the goal when you started the newsletter back, which was seven years ago?
Was it just like, "I am listening to too many podcasts. H- how do I make some sense of this?" Yeah.
It was there are so many podcasts out there, I'm afraid I'm missing out on some great ones that could absolutely change my life, whether in positive or negative ways, and I wanted to make sure to be aware of all of those podcasts, but also to make other people aware of those podcasts.
At the time, I wasn't necessarily thinking, "How can I help the individual creators who are making these really great podcasts that are not getting the attention they deserve get the attention they deserve?"
But that ended up being a byproduct, and now it's something that I really stand by. Initially it was, "I listen to five or six podcasts every week. I love them so much. I keep hearing about new ones that are coming out.
People keep telling me about their five favorite podcasts. What if one of their five favorite podcasts could be one of my favorite, five favorite podcasts, and it could change my life," right?
So if we could expand that, can you imagine the possibilities if everybody could listen to everybody else's favorite podcasts, and maybe hear an idea that sparks something for them? Yeah.
Um, you said you listen to, like, five to six podcasts a week. How many, how many hours of podcasts- No, no, no, hours a day. Hours a day. Hours, hours... You listen to five to six hours of podcasts a day? Yeah.
Yeah, yeah, yeah. What? That's in- Five to six per week would be nothing. That's, I mean, that's your work. [laughs] Yeah.
[laughs] I listen to, like, three a week, and that's, like, that's, like, three, like, maybe three hours a week, and- Okay... maybe sometimes more than that.
Um- That, that technically makes you almost a, a super listener. I think super listener- Yeah... is technically five hours a week. Okay. Yeah.
I only started getting into it too, like, right at the beginning of the pandemic. Uh, I was like, "It's time to get into podcast," like- Hell, yeah... I need to actively get into podcasts.
And now, now I'm, you know, almost a podcast addict. I'm a podcast addict. Hell, yeah. I'll, I'll admit it.
Um, but anyways, so going back to the newsletter and, like, how it's, how it's, the goals have changed over the years, and, like, the performance has changed, 'cause I think I, I counted 846 issues of the newsletter.
Yeah. And that's a lot. I've sent it out- So what's changed?... every single Sunday night since 2017, since, uh, February 13, 2017.
And I say Sunday night, but sometimes it had to get sent on Monday mornings because of, like, weddings or, like, you know, you're busy. Mm-hmm. So sometimes things happen. But in some parts of the world- People forget...
it, it was, it was Sunday. [laughs]How has it changed? It's always been five podcast episodes on a theme, each week curated by a different person. Anyone can curate a list.
So that is, like, the main tagline, is I have a submission form. You can submit to your heart's content. You can include one of your own episodes if you're a podcaster or if you work on a podcast.
The four other episodes within your list should be according to that theme and that fit well with your own episode. Um, so that has always stayed the same.
I have, over the years, experimented with different other segments in it.
So when it first started, I did a lot more community notices up at the top of the newsletter, so I would say, "Here's what's going on in the podcast world. Here's what I'm up to."
Uh, it was very much more from my perspective, and now I've kind of taken out the I, and I speak more in terms of we.
Generally speaking, the idea is that it is from a larger organization, and by, by larger organization, I mean me, my, my trusty podcast and newsletter coordinator, Devin DeComo, and our editor, Abby Clionsky.
Abby has been with me since 2017, since we started. She's just been pro bono editing for me, so, um, I appreciate her very much. She's just a, a good friend. And Devin is, um, a recent-ish college grad.
Um, she went to grad school for, um, journalism, and she loves the podcast world, so this is a great opportunity for her to be involved and to, you know, get emails from people who are making really great things and look for opportunities that way.
I, I very much... I, I've hired three or four people. I, I...
One, two, three people throughout my, um, newsletter existence that have helped me put the, put together the newsletter, and my goal for all of them is, like, to get them jobs in the podcast space elsewhere.
O- obviously, it's great if they stay with me for a long time or want to, you know, have this as a side gig while they do something else, but I really pride myself on connecting them with other people in the podcast space or being able to write recommendation letters for them so that they can get the job of their dreams.
Um, so it's been really fun t- kind of like giving myself a people management role in all of this as well. [laughs] Yeah.
I respect that kind of thing of, like, just try it, just do it, see what doors open up, see, like, what I can do with it.
Um, so there's, like, so many threads that you just said that I wanna pull on, but first, before we move on to that, I do wanna talk for a second about the podcast component- Sure...
of, um, of Earbuds and, like, why you started that and- Yeah... how that's changed as well, if it has. Oh, that's changed a lot over the years.
So when I first started the podcast, it was October of 2019, and it was essentially me reading the newsletter out loud, and it was bad, and it was boring, and it was...
Like, my mom listened to it, and she was like, "Arielle, this is boring." And I was like, "I know. That's the point." And she was like, "No, that's not a good point." [laughs] And I was like, "Okay, heard.
I will see what I can do with that."
So shortly after that, I started interviewing each week's curator and asking them why they chose this theme and what got them into the world of podcast listening and do they host a podcast themselves.
If so, what got them into that, and more questions. And the, the interviews would sometimes be 45 minutes, and I would have to condense them into...
I wanted them to be around 15 minutes, sometimes even five to seven minutes. And I did that for, like, a year, and it was a lot of work, and I was editing using Audacity at the time, and I was not doing it efficiently.
I'm sure, you know, now, now that I use Descript, it would be much, much easier. But at the time, I did not have my systems in place. I did not have my workflow.
So it took me forever, in addition to having a full-time job and a bunch of side gigs. So I decided that I needed to find a middle ground.
So a- after a year of doing the interviews, I ended up going to an asynchronous interview situation, which is what I am currently at, or at least was at before the hiatus.
So now the way it works is, um, when somebody's list is selected to be featured on the podcast, Devin DeComo, who is our newsletter and podcast coordinator, sends them a list of questions to answer.
So it's basically, what's your name? How'd you get into the podcast space? Tell us about the theme that you selected. Why'd you select this theme?
Go through each episode and tell us a little bit about it, and then anything else you'd like to add.
So then it ends up being me at the top of the show welcoming them, sharing any podcast news, letting people know what's gonna happen in this episode. Then we press play on the interview with the curator.
Then I come back, and I sort of do the sponsor ad reads, uh, any podcast tidbits and things like that. And that seemed to be a nice middle ground.
Enough for me to have had conversations with these people, even if asynchronously, um, enough for me to give added value to the sponsors and enough to say that I have a podcast.
And a- as somebody who works in the podcast space, I like to be able to keep up with technology in the podcast space, so I use different hosting providers. I use different ad insertion technology.
I like to be able to test around and share that information with my clients, um, you know, in other aspects of the, of the podcast world. So it is...
It's been a great experiment to have this podcast, and it will continue to change.
I'm actually in talks with somebody right now to potentially do, like, a branded podcast for their podcast hosting company but with my podcast as, like, the, the main crux of it.
So we would potentially be, like, Feedback with Earbuds sponsored by this company. Hmm. That makes a lot of sense, yeah. Yeah. Uh, I s- okay. Again, there's, like, so many things I wanna pull on.
But for a second bef- because we just have to get this out of the way, um, one, uh, one thing that I'm always thinking about is, like, the idea of what is a creator and, like, what does it mean to be a creator, what's the implications of creating con- et cetera, et cetera.
Um, so I would love to hear your definition of creator broadly, uh, and then I'll share mine, and we can go back and forth on it. Yeah. Um, the word makes me bristle, and I'm sure you get that a lot, right?
Because it's sort of... It feels self-indulgent to be like, "I am a creator." Um, I think it's just somebody who makes things.
Like, I, I don't even necessarily know that it needs to be somebody who makes things consistently or somebody who makes things well. You can be a shitty creator and still be a creator, right?
People have called me a creator, but it's not something that I necessarily identify with. Um, I think creator often getsPaired with video or maybe audio Mm-hmm... less so with writing. Um, but I think all of that is...
And I think the word creator is also very much a byproduct of, like, the digital creator world, even though you can absolutely be a creator and be, like, somebody who's painting.
But, you know, that's just less so how we use it nowadays on the internet.
I think a creator is somebody who wants to always be innovating and trying new things to potentially reach new audiences or to further give value to their existing audiences.
For me, I am just constantly, like I said, thinking of ways to grow the pie of the podcast world.
And for, a- and within that, I'm always just, like, thinking of ideas, like what, what can I do that will, that will get more people exposed to podcasts?
Last year, my friend and I, Lauren, she's, uh, the founder of Tink Media, which is a podcast growth agency, we decided that in April of 2023 we were like, "Let's go to Washington Square Park in the city, in New York City, and hold up signs and ask people their opinions on podcasts."
And so we got, like, a video crew to come with us, and we just interviewed people for a full day. We probably talked to, like, 75 people, and we said to them, "What is a podcast?" Um, "Where do you listen to podcasts?
What do you listen to? Why do you listen? What's stopping you from listening, at all, or more?" And we made some really fun video content from it, and, um, that's available on social media.
But, you know, that is not something that I do consistently, but definitely would, if you saw that, be like, "That's a creator," right?
Like, that, that's like the typical definition of a creator, who, like, does- Mm-hmm... man on the street interviews. Um- Yeah... but I don't know, I think it can be so many different things.
And I, and like I said, I bristle at it, but, um, I think that for me it's just I am always trying to make things that reach people or, or reach existing, my existing audience or new people, to bring them into the fold of the podcast world.
That was, that was amazing. Okay. One, kudos to you for doing the Washington Square Park thing. I have also literally done that- Hell yeah... for my last job- [laughs]... in a cloud costume. It was terrible. It sucks.
It's hard. Um, but okay- We did it on our own... yeah, just like a lot of- Like nobody asked us to do it. We were just like- Yeah... "Let's go." [laughs] It's, you're a glutton for punishment.
[laughs] Um, [laughs] it's like... Okay, but no, so you touched on a lot of things I wanna talk about. Um, so one, I think for me, like, my interest is obviously, like, I create this thing called Creator Spotlight.
So for me it's like, who, it's about, like, who should I interview? What kind of a question should I ask them? And, like, that's my interest in figuring out, like, a definition for this or, like, definitions for it.
Um, but I think you, you, [laughs] you're right in, like, many of the things you said, where it's like, um, number one, it's just basically somebody who's creating content, and it's more associated with a video, uh, somewhat with audio, less with writing.
And I think with video, 'cause it was, like, originally a YouTube term that YouTube came up with. Right.
And, like, with writers, like, it, you know, there's always been writers, journalists, bloggers, whatever you wanna call that. So there was already a word for that.
Uh, and with audio, it's like, there was radio, there was radio hosts, or, like, musicians, you know- Yeah... and that's a thing.
And so, but with videos p- people weren't re- really calling themsel- like, cinematographer isn't such a word that people use so frequently.
So I think, the, I hadn't really thought about that, how, like, breaking it down into those, um, media.
I, I, I definitely think you're a creator because you're doing, like, the things that I've basically pegged as, like, the, my three tenets of what is a creator, which I'm...
It's getting to the point where I need to refresh them and, like, rewrite them, but they are, like, number one, and this is the only thing that really matters, is they're creating content and distributing it online- Mm...
consistently. Online. Uh, number two... Online, yes. Mm. 'Cause I, well, I mean, I think, like, in the sense of, like, the creator economy- Yeah, yeah...
like, it has to be online, like- The way that we're using it, yeah. We're not saying, like- Yeah... you go and you set up an easel and you- Yeah. You're creating stuff- Right... but, like, creator. Yeah.
Which then it's like, actually, a- as, like, an aside, it's like capital... Then I p- if I'm trying to make, like, a capital C- I know, it sounds like God... I actually don't want... Exactly.
[laughs] So I can't do that, which is, like, that's another thing about the word. And another thing about it, too, is, like, it's flattening in a way that's almost offensive to people who make stuff- Right...
'cause it's like, "No, I'm, I'm a writer," or, "I'm a podcast. I'm not a creator." But it's like- Right... so it's, like, a catch-all word.
Um, but anyway, so number one is the c- consistently creating and distributing content online.
Number two, uh, and I think this one also gets a little fraught, is, and I've been starting to question it more, is, like, they're inde- independent. Mm.
There's, like, a direct relationship with the audience as opposed to a middleman. Like, a journalist who publishes for The New York Times- Right...
they are accountable to that organization more so than they are to their audience or themselves.
Um, and number three is they're monetizing it in some way, and this is the one that matters the least, 'cause I kinda put, like, a big net on it.
And I think this, this is actually where, where it, it becomes interesting r- relative to you is, like, that monetization could be not even just ads, although you do sell ads on your podcast, but, like, a way of, like, for, of pushing forward your career or, like- Right...
creating opportunities for yourselves. Where with you, like, as far as I understand, you started, uh, Earbuds in 2017, and then it wasn't until about a year later that you got your first job in podcasting.
And to me, that's, like, that's a direct connection where, like, you were monetizing the newsletter. I don't know if you had ads then, but you were monetizing it by- Right...
then it was allowing you to get a job in what- Yeah... you wanted.
Um, [clicks tongue] so do you, is that true that, like, number one, before we get back into, like, all the definitions of what is a creator, uh, did you get your first job in podcasting by having a newsletter about podcasts?
Definitely. When I initially started it, I used it to go to podcast conferences for free, um, you know, advertising in the newsletter in exchange for free tickets. So when I got to those conferences, it was all about...
Like, I, I was willing to do anything in the podcast space to say that I worked in the podcast space.
I wasn't even really sure what I wanted to do, whether it was, like, be a host, be a journalist, be a, I don't know, producer of some sort, or to be more on the business side of things. I had no idea.
I really just, like, wanted to be in the industry and then figure it out. And
when I got to these conferences, I really just, like, went to every single table, booth at the expo hall, and shook hands and took cards, and then followed up so goddamn diligently.
Like, I was, like, your typical definition of, like, here is what to do to network at a conference. [laughs] Um, like, the really professional schmoozer.
And-I, you know, followed up with coffee, "Can I buy you a coffee so that I can learn more about how you got to where you are in your career today?" That type thing.
I absolutely was able to point to the newsletter in conversations with people to say, like, "This is a thing that I do on my own no matter what. Nobody is paying me to do this.
I will always do this because I genuinely love it." Mm-hmm. And I think that that is now something that I look for when I'm hiring people, whether it's for my newsletter or for other things that I'm involved in.
I wanna see that you're a self-starter. I wanna see that you genuinely love this industry or whatever it is that you are doing, um, on your own, and would you be doing this on your own?
And I'm not saying do free labor, but I am saying show me that you are interested. Show me that this is something that you love. Um, and I- I'm definitely not saying do free labor. Like, I monetized pretty early on.
Like, it, it- Mm-hmm... it's definitely possible. So yes, I can point to the newsletter to say that it's gotten me every job that I've gotten in- Yeah... podcasting, or since 20- No... 18. Since 2018, yeah.
No, that, that's, that's really cool 'cause, like, like you were saying, like, don't do the free labor, but when you're doing it for yourself, it's like it's an investment in, like, maybe getting a job related to the thing you're doing 'cause you're showing a proof of concept and maybe- Yeah...
getting a job down the line.
Um, one other thing I wanna talk about, about my definition of the creator that I am, like, not so sure about at this point is this independence clause, especially 'cause I think with podcasts, like, so many, especially so many of the huge ones, are, like, you know, in a part of, like, podcast networks, right?
Mm-hmm. So it's like, but that's still a creator, I think. So I don't know.
What do you think about that idea of, like, does a creator have to be independent, or, like, what's the relationship between them and, like, a middleman? I don't know.
It, it's really hard because I'm thinking, like, with Descript, we have an amazing YouTube channel. There's, um, the main guy on the YouTube channel, his name is Ramdy, and he makes...
Once a week, he puts out a video for Descript, right? But it's for Descript. But if you were to see those videos, you'd be like, "That's a creator."
But at the same time, would those videos happen if he wasn't working for Descript? No. You know, they'd be different. He'd be making something else.
It, it's a tough question, and I, I think, um, if, if Earbuds were, let's say, acquired by, like, a larger...
Let's say Amazon Music acquired Earbuds and was like, "We want you to send out a newsletter called Earbuds by Amazon every Sunday, um, and it's gonna feature podcasts and always point back to Amazon links. And once...
uh, uh, two out of the five podcast episodes that you choose should be Amazon exclusives," and whatever. Would I still be a creator? I don't... I think so, but I don't know. Hm.
Well, I mean, me, like, I do this for Beehiiv, and- Right... it's like I'm building this kind of independent thing. There you go. But I'm like a quasi-creator, marketer, journalist- I think, I think you are...
and, like, I'm not really sure what I am. I think so. I, I think you are. I think it's- Yeah... it's a larger question, and also I guess the... You have to zoom out and say, why do we care, you know? Yes.
Like, why is this- I mean, I care 'cause I care about the inside baseball, but, like- Mm-hmm... why does anybody else care? Yeah, but w- what are we ultimately getting at, you know? It's- Hm...
what implications does it have? Well, I think the, the implications that it has is, like, I'm always interested... I always ask people, "What are your... What's your accountability to your audience?" Got it.
Or, like, your responsibility to your audience, 'cause I think that's what it comes down to to me. I think transparency is important in that case. Yes. Because, like- That's a good point. Mm-hmm.
You know, what's interesting is, like, if... The second something is aligned with a brand, it loses authenticity, unless you are so open about it. Like, right now- Mm-hmm...
at Descript, we are, me and one of my coworkers, Ashley Hamer, we're working on a podcast/video show that's gonna be twice a week, and it's gonna be about, like, c- tips for creators, very quick, like two to three minutes every episode.
And
what we decided pretty actively was that, yes, it's gonna be from Descript, and there will be some Descript branding in it, but we want to avoid being like, "I'm Arielle from Descript," and, "I'm Ashley from Descript."
We're just gonna be Arielle and Ashley because the second that we are from Descript, it seems like we are in the pockets of Descript, which we are. Mm-hmm. [laughs] But ultimately, we are also helping to...
We are hoping to help creators make things. And yes- Mm-hmm... some of the tips are going to point back to the Descript blog, and yes, the backlinks are going to go back to the Descript blog.
But ultimately, we are making sure that we are also equally showing off resources that are not Descript. So it's sort of an interesting...
Like, we are creators on our own, and that is something that we say, Ashley and I, in, in some of our discussions, but we are also creating for a brand. And I think- Yeah... the language that I chose there,
I am creating for a brand. I am a creator. Maybe it's a branded creator. I don't know. Yeah. No, uh, a couple things there. One, like, I, I read...
I don't know if it was just some tweet or, like, this essay in this essay collection I've been reading that I read this past weekend that was making the argument that, like, uh, Gen Z doesn't like The Matrix as much because, like, a conceit of the movie The Matrix is that it's about selling out and this very '90s- Wow...
culture of selling out. But that being a creator, like everyone today, being a creator is selling... You're selling yourself to an audience, or, you know.
There's nuance to there, but for a second let's say that being a creator is, like, selling yourself to an audience and, like, to monetize selling ads on yourself, like, whether it's in your newsletter or your podcast, whatever.
Um, so I think maybe it's, that's part of it is, like, you can be a creator for a brand because that's just been, that's become so normal, and that's, like, how you monetize as a creator is, like- Yeah...
it's just this u- this understood relationship between brands. But, um, d- do you agree with that? I don't know. Yeah, I think do we all hope that we could create independently?
Yeah, but sometimes we have to get a paycheck, you know? Yeah. And, like,
I think that if you get to be a creator consistently and do n- 80% of things without oversight from a brand and maybe 20%, like, I'm, I'm guessing in your situation- Mm-hmm... this is a lot of your project right now.
Like, you get to ask me the questions that you want. You get to ultimately decide who gets featured on Creator Spotlight.
But, um, it's going to be branded as Beehiiv, and, like, that is okay with you because it means that you get to do this work. Yes. Yeah. So maybe that's what it is.Anyways, let's go back to podcasts and newsletters.
So you started a newsletter first, and then you did a podcast, and you are on record as not being a reader. I don't read. [laughs] Um, me, I'm a big reader. That's why I get this done. I wish I was, but I can't.
You know? I can't. Yeah. I, I, see, I've, I've... That's like my, that's my whole thing. I was good at English class in school because I was a reader, so that's why I'm now a writer. Hm.
But I thought it's so funny that you started a newsletter, um, as a non-reader. But anyways. Well, have you... If you look at my newsletter, it's very much- It's not a lot of words. I've read it...
it's very bullet pointy. It's very- Yeah... it is made for people who like to skim, and I am okay with that. Yeah. Podcasts and newsletters, how are they the same? How are they different? Yeah.
There's a lot of different podcast newsletters.
There's podcast recommendation newsletters, podcast industry newsletters, and then podcast newsletters from brands that are like vaguely associated with that brand or very associated with that brand. Yeah.
And sometimes they maybe do creator spotlights, and then sometimes they do, like, podcast news, and here's why it relates to you as a user of this product. There's so many newsletters.
I subscribe to as many of them as I possibly can. Do I read all of them word for word? You bet I don't, but that's okay. But you open them.
I d- I open them and I click the links because I am a good newsletter friend, because I've been in the newsletter world for a long time, and you click on those goddamn links. [laughs] Yes. You do your friends favors.
It's good to know where your content falls in relation to other people- Mm, mm-hmm... who are making things on similar topics. Should you be responding to those things? Should you be going in a different direction?
Should you be refuting them? Should you be screenshotting them and posting them on social and saying, "I disagree," or, "I agree"? Um, you know, how can you use existing content for thought leadership?
So yeah, a big fan of podcast newsletters. Yeah. What do you, uh, where do you get subscribers from usually? How do people find you? I, I started a Slack channel with other podcast newsletter writers.
So we, um, pretty consistently share on each other's newsletters. We have, um, like a system where, "Hey, do you have inventory in your newsletter to promote?" Mm. "Great, let's do it."
I'm also on a bunch of different, like, newsletter aggregator sites like Mekko and, I don't know, there's so many of them where you can like find cross promotions and things like that.
So I have a few of those going all the time. Sometimes I buy ads on For The Interested, which is a newsletter from, um- Hm, mm-hmm... his name is Josh something. I've read that one.
Every once in a while, if somebody recommends a good place to buy an ad, I'll test it out if the, if the price is right. That will bring me some subscribers.
I also pretty consistently post on social and try to make my social posts not just like, "New issue of the newsletter out now," but like give people- Yeah... a reason to click on it.
And then Beehiiv makes it really great because, you know, you're scrolling through and it gives you the pop-up that's like, "Would you like to subscribe to this?" Yeah. Hell yeah, I would. [laughs] Yeah.
Um, I, so I wanna talk more about growth for a second. We have a survey for this newsletter. One of the questions is, what would you like, what kind of stuff would you like us to talk about?
The number one, I think it's like 30-some percent, is growing an audience, which I think is like the most difficult thing to do. Um, and like my, my...
Whenever like people reply to the welcome email and ask me, I have like, I can only give so much advice 'cause I get all these replies. So like by, you know, I, I hand, hand type them out. I respond.
My pieces of advice are, number one, just make good content and put it out consistently, because like everything else is just a magnifying function on that. Like that's all that matters really at the end of the day.
I think other people might disagree with me, but that's like my personal opinion is you should put out good content anyways.
Um, but then it's like you, you have to either sell ads or be on one of these other platforms engaging in conversations and being social.
Like you say, like looking at what e- what are the other podcast newsletters doing? Do I disagree? Can I like post a screenshot of that and, and talk about it? Um, I don't know.
Like, uh, there's no, in my opinion, there's no like golden key- Yeah... to do it. It's just be consistent, do good stuff, and like try all these other things, and some of them will work. Most of them probably won't.
You see what happens. Is... I don't know. Do you agree with that? Yeah, I don't think there's any other way, and I think,
I say this with podcasts too, if anybody tells you that there's one way, then they're a marketing guru bullshitter. They're trying to sell you a course. Yeah. It's- Yeah. [laughs] Yeah.
It's, um, every, every single person has a different playbook to grow their newsletter, to grow their podcast.
I think if I had all the time in the world, would I be finding a contact at the New York City subway system to try to get a QR code put there? Hell yeah, I would. That would be the way. Like all of the different...
And would I love to put a QR code up on like l- in LA traffic? Yeah. Hell yeah, I would. Um, those are some of the things that I would do, but I don't have all the time in the world, you know? Mm-hmm.
So if anybody is- Hire somebody who does repaste... if anybody wants to do that, yeah. If anybody wants to do that for me. Yeah. I have so many ideas. I have so many ideas. Mm-hmm.
If somebody wants to help me implement those ideas, let's go.
The appeal with the creator economy and with being a creator, and I think it's a little mis- misunderstood, is that it's like, it's like a lottery that you can increase your chances of winning through merit and through bootstrapping.
And I find this, like, the stories I write, I think I, you know, I only have so much feedback to go on, but I think I get a better response when it's somebody who has like totally bootstrapped their growth, and that's what people want.
'Cause that's what people want to replicate.
Um, so, but I think it's also like it's a little misleading because as you've talked about before in another interview I listened to where you were like, "It's not e- it's easy to make a bad podcast.
It's hard to make- Yeah... a good podcast."
Um, but I think that to me is, is like another one of the few fundamental truths of what, how, how the creator economy, how being a creator is at least understood by people who wanna do that, is it's like a way to win the lottery, the algorithm lottery, maybe let's say with like social media, but you can increase your chances with a little bit of hard work.
Yeah. I think that's right. Do you agree? Yeah. Um, there are some shitty newsletters that do well because they have really great marketing, you know? Mm-hmm. And really great landing pages.
So maybe they have a really great sign-up rate, but really high unsubscribe rate.
There's also-A lot of people who are not in it for the long haul, you know, they do a really great job building something up, and they just can't stay consistent with it. And
I- the thing is, like, my newsletter might not be better. It might not be bigger. It might not be this. It might not be that. But I will do it forever, you know what I mean? Like- Mm-hmm...
and that's one of my strong suits is, like, I am committed.
[laughs] So this reminds me of another thing you'd said in a recent interview, where you had, like, gone to a movie, and somebody came, and you met somebody who, uh, was like, "Oh, you work in the podcast business.
I've always wanted to start a podcast," and you were like, uh, you were like, "As if it's like a puppy-" I was like, "K" "... as if you've always wanted to have a puppy."
[laughs] Well, but I think what's interesting there is, like, a puppy is like having a podcast 'cause you're gonna need to have it for, you know, 10 to 15 years- Hopefully, yeah...
and you have to take care of it, hopefully. [laughs] Or it dies. So I, I don't know. I think it's actually a great comparison.
But, um, I, again, I wanna, like, hear you talk more about, like, this like, uh, like, like- Yeah... who should not make a pod- when should you not make a podcast?
Should anyone, like, who, like, wants to make a podcast not? Like... I don't know. Because, like, uh, imagine if you were like, "Oh, I work in book publishing," and someone was like, "I've always wanted to have a book."
What the hell? Yeah. Like, who says that? [laughs] "Oh, I work in newslet- I've always wanted to have a newsletter," why does nobody say that either? Like- Mm-hmm...
I, I, I don't know why it bothers me so much, and this is a conversation that I've had with a lot of people. And I think ultimately the reason it feels so cringey is because podcasts are so you must self-promote.
You must- Mm-hmm... constantly be saying why you are special and different. And a lot of times, people are not special and different.
They're making something that is similar to other things, and you just need to find a way to stand out. And a lot of the times the reason you're not standing out is because you're not a student of the craft. And- Yeah...
if you were a student of the craft, you would know that your show is a lot similar, it is very similar to other shows in your craft.
But if you listen to other shows, if you, like, did the time, if you took, took the time to do the research, took the time to be subscribed to newsletters in your, in that niche, to be subscribed to podcast newsletters, you would know that, like, there are a lot of podcasts about leadership among, I don't know, Fortune 300 companies.
And that's fine, but how is yours gonna be different? How is yours gonna be different? Mm-hmm. Um, so I think, like, should everybody have a podcast? Uh, I, I'm of two minds. One is if, if there is a,
if there is a podcast that will get a specific person to become a podcast listener, I'm all for it. I want more people to listen to podcasts. So the more podcasts that are out there, the more likely they are to find
the perfect person to listen to that podcast. However, at the same time, there are so many shitty podcasts out there, and I just wish that if people were going to start a podcast, they're...
I'm not saying that there needs to be, like, a barrier to entry. I love that there's no barrier- Mm-hmm... to entry. I just, I wish more people took the time to learn about the craft before diving in. Nobody
d- uh, nobody who is a writer doesn't love books or doesn't love the idea of writing or, you know... I think, um, I've always wanted to be a writer, so I have a bunch of favorite authors. I've always wanted- Yeah...
to be a podcaster. You should have a bunch of favorite podcasters.
Well, I think, so I think the, this actually goes back to what we were just talking about before, where it's like a lot of people want to win the podcast lottery.
But what you need is to, like, you need to have a topic you want to write about- Yeah... and the medium. You should then pick the medium. Yeah. It's not about, like, I wanna start a podcast.
It's like, I love llama farming- Right... and so I wanna start, I wanna, I wanna tell people about it. That's inherently visual. And so then I'll do a podcast or whatever.
I would go with something visual in that situation. Yeah. [laughs] Maybe not a podcast. [laughs] But you know, well, you get the point, right? It's like, yeah, it's, you need to, like, have something- Yeah...
you wanna talk about. Yeah. The, the idea should be there first. What pisses- Yes... me off is I've always wanted to have a podcast. Okay, great. [laughs] Cool. Who cares? Yeah. Um, okay. Podcast community stuff.
I think in my last job in, like, content marketing was what I did, community was this buzzword. All these startups- Always... want to have community. Community, community, community.
Um, it's something that I've, you would agree that not every company or podcast or whatever needs to have. But what is community in the way that it's something you work with? What is your podcast community work?
What is that? So it, what, what community means for me personally is making, it is anti-gatekeeping, I think. Is, like, for me- Mm-hmm... I have this knowledge.
I make sure that I stay aware of all of these things, and I want to share all of that stuff. What it means for me in my,
my full-time job, so I work at Descript and I manage the community there, it means that we have a community of users who use the product to a different, to different extents. Some people are business users.
Some people are individuals. Some people will never make a dollar in their life. Some people are making all of their money making podcasts, making videos using Descript.
So my job is to figure out how everybody is using it and figure out what they wanna learn and how they wanna be highlighted and all that kind of stuff. So two different things.
But I think when we're talking about creating community around a podcast, creating community around a newsletter, it's really a buzzword. Because ultimately what you're saying is I...
It, it's, it would be great if everybody could build a, quote-unquote, "build a community around their podcast," but not every podcast, not every newsletter is made to have community built around it. Mm-hmm.
Like, if you have a quick five-minute daily podcast about the news, what am I gonna do? Talk, like- Nobody cares... talk to you about the nuances of that news? Like, I, I just, I would much rather be part of a community.
Like, I, I, one of my favorite podcast communities is, um, Who Weekly, is a, it's a twice weekly podcast with extra Patreon content about celebrities, and I am not your typical person that you would think is interested in celebrities.
But these people are fascinating. They've been doing it for so long. Mm-hmm. And it's actually really about PR and who gets covered and why they get covered, and it's fascinating.
And they just do such a great job funneling people to their community and creating inside jokes that you want to be a part of and live events that you must attend.
And-I decided a few weeks ago to pay for their Patreon because I needed more, you know?
A- and it's interesting to keep track of what makes you want to subscribe to something and what makes you want to follow the call to action. Um- Mm-hmm...
but their commu- their show lends itself to community because they are doing something extremely unique that people wanna be a part of. There are too many people that are, that can't get
more than 500 downloads per episode, can't get more than, like, 2,000 newsletter subscribers, can't get people to show up to, like, Zooms, can't get people to leave them ratings and reviews on Apple.
Those people are now also trying to create a community. It's too many things.
Like, i- if you can't get your desired community to, like, write back to you on an email, it's gonna be very hard for you to funnel them into a third place. Mm-hmm. Be humble about that. Yeah. Yeah.
Um, one thing that struck me when I was looking into your background is, like, on your LinkedIn, your first two jobs after college were very much, like, explicitly these kind of community things.
Um, and I, I, I wonder if, like... 'Cause again, it's, like, not just anything should be, should have a community, but I, I think also not just any person- Right... is, like, good at managing that. Right. So, like, is...
I don't know.
Is there something about, like, the core of who you are, like, something you learned in those, your early jobs after college that, like, makes you an expert in this or, like, just better at it than other people?
Maybe not from these jobs, but I think I learned pretty early on that most people are bullshitting all the time and that that should be called out. [laughs] And
that also I'm bullshitting and that you're bullshitting and, like, everybody's bullshitting a little bit. That's life. And, like, the second that you start...
Like, I, I, I go to conferences all the time and most people are surface leveling their talks. Most people are like- Mm-hmm... "Here are the five, top five things to do this."
Like, I'm sorry, but the, the, the things that you're saying are the top five are, like, kind of bullshit and, like, not actually... They're not actually helpful for anybody. So I- They're sound bites... I just try to,
when I'm speaking, whether it's in an interview like this or on stage or any time, I just try to give clear takeaways, and I think that that has just made me very tell it like it is. Mm.
And I think that that is what people are attracted to when it comes to me, um, and the things that I create. I try as much as I can to, like, be a weirdo, like, to just be myself, which is weird. Yes.
[laughs] No, I fully agree with that. Um, one more community-related thing I wanna talk about is you are on the board of the Podcast Academy. You're up for re-election right now. Yes.
Anybody listening, there's probably that one week left. Unfortunately, this will go out after that- Yeah. [laughs]... after that vote. But anyways, so- It's okay...
I- There's 11 spots and 12 people running, and I think I'm- Oh, amazing. Think, think I have a good shot. [laughs] You should. What does the Podcast Academy do? And like, what can it... What is impossible for it to do?
What are, what's the potential there? Yeah, it's a good question. Um, right now, the Podcast Academy is the body that creates the Ambies, which is the awards for excellence in audio.
So if you are a member of the Podcast Academy, you can submit your show/shows for awards. Um, you can vote. You can vote for the board of governors. You can be part of the Slack channel.
You can be part of the mentor-mentee, um, program, and then there's all sorts of these cool discounts that you're eligible for when you become a member of the Podcast Academy. And
there are also really great events that are member exclusive. Um,
I think the idea what is possible is the second that you decide that you wanna start a podcast and you have an idea for a podcast and it, there's a reason it should be a podcast, um, and you Google how to start a podcast, ideally the Podcast Academy should pop up.
You should become a member of the Podcast Academy. You should be funneled into, like, a beginner's track.
You know, you should be able to choose kind of where you are on the spectrum of, um, beginner, intermediate, expert, whatever, and that, you know, totally up to you.
Um, and then within this funnel, you should be able to get information about hosting providers and lessons for, for vocal stuff and anything that you might possibly need.
This is where I think the Podcast Academy could go. Mm. I also think that it further professionalizes the idea of audio as entertainment and advocates for podcasting on the whole as a medium to be taken seriously.
Mm-hmm. And what I mean by that is, like, let's have more awards at larger, you know, Webbys and, and places that are, uh, that are...
I just, I, I think the Podcast Academy could and should be advocating for podcasting to become more professionalized. So I'm also part of an organization called the Podcast Taxonomy, which is
an international multidisciplinary effort to standardize roles and credits in the podcast space. So, like, what is a producer? What is an editor? What should they be paid? Where sh- what- Mm-hmm...
should they be paid in certain places? Um, how much work should they have to do for X number of dollars? Things like that.
And obviously these are things that would constantly be changing, but it would be nice to have some sort of baseline. Um, so
the Podcast Academy theoretically I think could be the organization to take that on and say, "This is, this is what is happening, and this is- Mm-hmm... how we can be fair to creators."
The danger there is right now what's so beautiful about podcasting is that you can do whatever the hell you want, right? Mm. Like, you, there are no rules. A 30, a pre-roll ad doesn't have to be 30 seconds.
It can be a minute. It can be 14 seconds. It can be 36 seconds. Mid-roll ad doesn't have to be right at the 50% mark of the show. It can be sort of in the middle, sometime after the pre-roll.
Um, and these are things that are not available to you in film and TV and in radio because those things are highly-Regulated.
So that is something that I love about podcasting, so while I do advocate for making things a little bit more streamlined, I also definitely wanna keep the beauty of the let's do whatever the hell we want.
Yeah, no, that's great. Thank you for that. I like that kind of conflict between, like, the ability to do what you want and then, like, the, um, the idea of, like, regulations or standards is, is, is tough.
Like, I think with newsletters too, w- and I've talked to some people who have local newsletters, and there's a ton of more people out there doing that, and it's like, you know, when you have that, you lose, like, The New York Times or whatever, whatever professional news organization, they have editorial standards and y- all these checks and balances and stuff.
And like, you know, still those are flawed, but, like, you get some kind of standardized way of, like, reporting what is, you know, ostensibly the truth or a, a, a point of view.
And so, like, I don't know, with, with newsletters, that's something I think about a lot where it's like you have...
Again, you have a responsibility to your audience, and, like, again, all that really matters is being transparent and, like, saying, like, "This is my point of view," or whatever.
And I like to think that people have, like, an increased level of media literacy to understand that now. Um, I'm not sure if that's the case or not, but g- I don't know. Anyways, fraught, a totally fraught thing.
Um, if you have an idea for a podcast or a newsletter that you think somebody should start- Mm... that's just on the table that you're not gonna start, um... So I'm asking you. Yeah.
Is there, like, a podcast you think somebody should start? I have three podcasts that I would like to start. Um- Mm-hmm... and I don't wanna give any of them away. Okay.
Although one of them is so away, it's been so given away. I had a tweet go viral in 2021. Um- I see it right here. Yeah. It's, uh... Yeah, that's a great idea. And it's a great idea.
It's c- uh, the, the tweet is a podcast where parents try to explain what their adult children do for a living. I would love to make that show.
I would love to get funding to make that show because I don't wanna make it on my own. I want to... I really wanna have a partner. Mm-hmm. I really want to, um, have a distribution partner, but also a creative partner.
I'd be okay with giving up some creative freedoms in order to do it right with the right person or right company. And I do think it could be a branded podcast.
Like, I think that it could maybe be with, like, indeed.com or whatever, some sort of job creation website. But also, it could be about...
It could be, like, a, one of those memory preservation companies that creates stories out of... You know. Mm. I think there's a lot of directions to go in with this.
Um, so I'm, I'm looking for the right partner for that. Um, I do have a deck, and I have conducted a few interviews for it. Um, and that tweet is interesting 'cause it's from 2021, and every six months it goes re-viral.
The, the meme accounts repost it, and- I've, I've seen it before. Yes. Yeah. It's fascinating. Mm-hmm.
It's a really nice thing that happens in my life because people reach out to me, and they're like, "This got posted in my group chat. This got posted in a newsletter," and I'm like, "Great, let's go."
Like, who, who am I popping up on that, [laughs] that, like, hasn't heard from me in 10 years? I, I just, I love that, that idea. Um, so that is something that I would like to make. An idea that I would...
A podcast that I would like other people to make actually just got made this past, two weeks ago.
It's called Finally: A Show That's Not Just a Thinly Veiled Aspirational Nightmare, and the idea is it's created by this woman Jane Marie. And she, she's produced on This American Life.
She has a company called Little Everywhere. She makes a show called The Dream.
She's such a great writer to speaker, and what I mean by that is, like, it's clear that she's reading writing, but she does it in such a beautiful way that makes you addicted to the way that her voice sounds.
And she, she's just great. Mm-hmm. I highly recommend checking out the things that she makes.
And this new podcast is not hosted and not narrated, and it's just a drop-in to a different woman's life for a full day in their life. It's really cool. That's awesome. Yeah. Okay.
I know we're, we are almost out of time, so maybe one more question before a little, a, a little bit of plugs. Uh, you've been doing this in the creator economy for seven years now, and I have...
I, I certainly don't know what I'll be doing in seven years, let alone in a year. I don't think you do either. Maybe you do.
But, uh, anyways, let's say in, like, two to three years, what's your dream for where you are, maybe, like, professionally in, like, a full-time job, or are you creating full time? Where are you in, like, two years?
What, what's your dream for- I-... creator economy stuff?... I want 500,000 subscribers to my newsletter. I don't see a reason why it shouldn't be the case.
There are, by some estimates, 50% of the US population listens to a podcast every month, so they should be subscribed to my newsletter.
Um, you know, at least a percentage of those people should be subscribed to my newsletter.
Um, I think within that, if I had all the time in the world, all the resources in the world, I would also have s- I would segment that list so that you could subscribe for podcasts about different topics.
Um, I would have a more robust way to put, put the podcast together every week. Like I said, it's on hiatus now partly because I am tired, and I have a lot of things going on. Um, but I, I...
You're asking me, like, a career question that I grapple with all the time, right? Mm-hmm. Like, do I wanna be somebody who is on camera talking about how much I love podcasts?
Do I wanna be, like, the podcast recommendation person in the world? I don't know. That would be cool, right? But, um, I don't know.
I, I, I'm pretty content doing Earbuds on the side, but it's like a strong side piece, if you will. Mm-hmm. It's like...
It's one that I feel very attached to, and one that allows me to constantly be in conversation with creators, but also listeners, and also keep up with what's going on in email marketing, and also keep up with what's going on in social media marketing, and also podcast marketing.
It's, it's, like, one of the best things I've ever done for myself is start this newsletter. It is one of... It... Can I say it's probably the best thing I've ever done for myself.
I can't imagine anything else that compares. Like, I, I love doing it. Um, I... In two years, the newsletter will be bigger. The podcast will be bigger. There will be more podcast listeners out there.
There will be more podcast creators out there who are making good stuff and who have really good onboarding, um, sequences so that they- Mm-hmm... are making good stuff faster. Shoot for the stars. Yeah.
Shoot for the moon. Land among the stars. Um, that's, those are some great dreams. Uh, okay. Last thing, plugs. Where do you want people to find you?
The newsletter that I am here to discuss is at earbuds.audio, and we have embedded Beehiiv, uh, sign-up forms right there on the website, so you can check that out.
Um, I think the direct link to the Beehiiv newsletter is newsletter.earbuds.com. No. Newsletter.earbuds.audio. My email address is ariel@earbuds.audio.
Try to make it very easy, so if you have questions about, you know, what to listen to, but also maybe you wanna create a podcast, and you want some validation on if that's a good idea or not, I can tell you.
[laughs] Um, I'm very active on Twitter still, and I don't call it X, you'll notice. It's- Same... sorry, this and that. Um, becoming more and more active on Instagram as a backup, Ariel this and that.
And I do have a website, arielnessenblatt.com, but that's really... I just have that so that I can own the domain. [outro music] This has been episode seven of the Creator Spotlight podcast.
Thank you, Ariel, for joining me. Thank you, listener, for sticking around to the end, and if you enjoyed it, it would mean a lot if you rated us on Spotify or Apple Podcasts. I'll see you next week. [outro music]