You're obviously really good at this. Yeah, every time I send out a newsletter, I get three to five waitlist signups. You're such, like, a entrepreneurial, bootstrap kinda guy.
When did you, like, really start doing this? I haven't taken a marketing class ever. I've been posting content for close to seven years, if not more than that now. It's pretty hard not to win.
If there's any advice you would leave the audience with about competing in the attention economy. You don't want to post generic fluff that anyone else could post. That video got one point six million views.
Why do you think that hit so well? It's, it's such a simple answer. Welcome back to the Creator Spotlight podcast. Today, we're speaking with Tommy Clark.
He's a B2B social media expert and has been producing content in a professional creator capacity for himself, uh, for at least half a decade.
First, as a nutrition coach on YouTube, and then as a B2B social guy on YouTube again and with a newsletter.
Um, and I actually interviewed him for another newsletter two years ago, but he's done a lot since then, so I'm excited to catch up. So Tommy, the biggest thing you've done since we last talked is start a content agency.
When I last talked to you, you were the head of social at Triple Whale, a SaaS brand. Now you've got this agency, Compound. Tell me about that. What is Compound? What do you guys do?
Yeah, I mean, first of all, you dug deep to find the, uh, nutrition coach thing. Uh, kudos to you on, on the research there. That is, uh, definitely a past life.
But, uh- Let's-- Look, forty-five thousand views on some of those videos? I mean, come on. It's so funny. They, they did kinda pop off.
Like, if you w- if you really wanna find them on YouTube, they're not that hard to find, unfortunately. [chuckles] Um, but we're just letting it ride.
Uh, but to answer your question, uh, with the agency, the one-sentence pitch is we create LinkedIn content for B2B founders.
Um, a lot of the people we work with are B2B software founders, but really the playbook applies whether you're in software, a service. If your customer's on LinkedIn, like, we'll help you get in front of them. Yeah.
Uh, w-why did you... So you were at Triple Whale for a little over a year. I don't think you- Yeah. Did you even have, like, another kind of full-time job in the field before?
You're such, like, a entrepreneurial, bootstrap kinda guy. You-- Was it kinda just like you did that, and you were like, "I don't wanna be an employee anymore.
I wanna do my own thing," and then you decided to start the agency? Like, why did you, why did you decide to start the agency rather than another full-time role? Yeah, that's a great question. I think there's two things.
One is that I already knew from the beginning that I wanted to do my own thing at some point. I think I imagined it would take longer than it did. I was sort of thinking five or ten years versus one and a half.
Um, and two, it kinda just happened by accident.
[chuckles] So how it played out was I had my full-time job, and then because Triple Whale was so successful, not like kind of a humble brag, I guess, but we did have some success on, on social.
I, I started getting a lot of inbound from other companies asking, like- Mm-hmm... "Hey, do you do any consulting? Do you do any freelance work?"
And I had time on nights and weekends without kind of impacting what I was doing in my day-to-day, so I was like, "Yeah, why not? Let me get the reps in. Uh, let me see if I can get some more results and case studies."
And then from there, over the course of five or six months, kind of accidentally built up this client roster. And then it got to a point where I was like, "Okay, I have these clients. I have this full-time job.
I have no time left. Something has to give." And going back to what I was saying a second ago, I already knew I wanted to do my own thing at some point, so I figured, "Okay,
I have this kind of sitting in my lap right now. I'd be kind of stupid not to take it and run with it and see where we go." Yeah. Uh, how... So now you have a team around you.
Kinda s- it sounds like you started getting all this work, and then it was like, "Okay, I got too much work. I need help. Let me hire somebody." Uh, how long did it take to, like, getting to that first hire?
Who was that first hire? Um, yeah. I'm really interested in, like, 'cause this is your first time building a team. How long did it take? It took way too long. [chuckles] I should have hired way earlier.
Every time anyone asks me about this, I'm like, "As soon as you, as soon as you think you need to make a hire, just hire. You, you will not regret it." Um, so I left Triple Whale end of Q3 in twenty twenty-three.
At that point, I'd already had a operations manager on a contract basis that was kinda helping me with some of the admin and logistics of posting client content and all of the repetitive things that I just didn't have a ton of time for and, quite frankly, didn't want to do.
So I was already hiring out a bit for that side of things, but I was so terrified to hire out for the content side of things- Mm... because up until that point- That's your magic touch, like... clients.
Yeah, that was, like, what I was good at, and I think I still am pretty good at, and I was hesitant that I would d- that I wouldn't be able to find someone who could produce content at the level that I could.
Um, so for the next three to four months, we very quickly hit capacity again.
So I left Triple Whale, announced that I left, got flooded with inbound, and then very quickly again hit that point where I just didn't have any bandwidth left.
I probably stretched myself a bit too thin, and it was fine for, I would say, two, two and a half months, and then the cracks started to show.
I was getting burnt out, but I was still terrified to hire, and I probably waited another two months after that before I pulled the, the trigger and hired my head of content. Okay.
Um, I should have hired the head of content as soon as I knew I wanted to build the agency.
If someone's listening to this and is considering starting an agency or going the freelance route, my biggest piece of advice is pick which one you wanna do. Mm.
If you wanna be a freelancer, absolutely nothing wrong with that. You can make really good money as a freelancer, keep all the profit.
It's fantastic, but just be aware that you're gonna hit your capacity, and you have to respect that. Like, you're not gonna be able to push past a certain point besides increasing- Yeah... your prices.
Um, but if you wanna build an agency, which I can get into, like, why I chose that route in, in a second.
But if you wanna go that route, just start building the team and systems from day one because you're gonna need them at some point, and the longer you delay that, the more painful it is and the more you're gonna wish that you just did it earlier.
Yeah. So that would be my, my advice there. Okay, how big... Uh, so I wanna get into the content side of things in a second 'cause- For sure... essentially this is, you know, about you as a creator. Um, but- Yeah...
how big is the team now, actually?Yeah, we're eight full time. Wow! We'll likely be at nine or 10 in the next one to two months. We're, we're looking for writers.
So if you're a content writer and you love content, but you wanna work at an agency and get some reps in, hit me up. Awesome. I'm sure- That will be my plug at the end of the, the episode. Yeah.
I'm sure there's a few listeners probably who, who might take you up on that. Um, okay, let's talk about the newsletter though. So- Let's do it... you have a newsletter now called Social Files.
Um, you, you used Beehiiv, but you started it four years ago, um, I think October 2020, I believe. Uh, and it was on- Mm-hmm... Substack, and it was called Tommy Talks Marketing.
So I th- To me, like from the outside, looks like there's about like three chapters here. You were on Substack- Yeah... for like two years, like a year and a half.
Um, and then you, I, I think you got hired by Triple Whale and maybe took, took a break, and then you were doing it, name change, it's called Social Files, and you were part of Workweek, uh, this network.
And then you leave Workweek about a year ago or so, and you're back independent on Beehiiv again. So does that track? Like, are those kind of three distinct- Yeah... chapters? Yeah, that tracks. Okay, cool. Um,
I guess like, you know, you probably started the newsletter like so many people did. It was 2020, newsletters are hot.
You're like, you know, you're trying to like learn and put yourself out there, and you're like kind of a natural like creator type, like just putting yourself out there. But I do wanna talk about the, the Workweek era.
You are the second person I've had on this who joined and then later left Workweek. The first was, uh, Brett Dashevsky of Healthcare Huddle.
So tell me about kind of the decision to join that and then the decision to leave. Yeah. No, great question. I mean, I have nothing but good things to say about my time there.
Uh, Adam and Becca and the rest of the team, and Brett was probably my main point of contact there actually- Mm-hmm... when I was part of that network, and he's amazing as well. Um, back when...
So started the newsletter pr- in the pre-Workweek era- Mm-hmm... just as a way to sort of share what I was learning about marketing.
At that time, it was more about networking and potentially getting a job versus- Yeah... getting customers or clients, or even really growing an audience. Um- And it worked... so did that. It w- it worked amazing.
[laughs] I, I got my job at Triple Whale off of a cold Twitter DM. That wouldn't have happened if I hadn't been posting content or writing about stuff or, uh, making videos and, and all of that. Mm-hmm.
Um, but was doing that, got hired at Triple Whale, and then a, a friend of mine, Daniel Murray, uh, who runs the Marketing Millennials, uh, LinkedIn page, and they have a massive audience over there.
He's like- Still got a million. Yeah... um, yeah, yeah. So I forget how we connected. I think it was through Twitter somehow, but we both moved to Austin around the same time, started chatting and became friends.
Uh, he was super supportive and actually connected me with Adam, and they were looking to bring someone in to Workweek to write about social media strategy. Okay.
And at this time, I think I had like 500 subscribers on the Tommy Talks Marketing newsletter. So it was- After like two years... it was very small. Yeah. Yeah, for like two years.
I wasn't really actively trying to grow it. It was just kinda there as like a- It's a journal... a resume of sorts. Yeah. Mm-hmm. Pretty much.
Um, I had a few pieces that gained a little bit of traction here and there, but nothing crazy at all. Um, but the quality of the writing was good, and Daniel saw that, Adam saw that, and I chatted with Adam and Becca.
Uh, they offered to bring me into Workweek, and really the decision was, I mean, they have a great team. They know what they're doing when it comes to growing newsletters.
I knew the quality of my newsletter was good, but I didn't really know how to grow it, and I also just didn't have time to 'cause at that time I had my full-time job. Yeah. So- Yeah... I was like, "I'm writing this.
I'm gonna keep writing it regardless of if it grows or not." Um, it's just too good of an opportunity to say no to, and they were willing to take a bet on me early, which I really appreciate.
Uh, and that really got the content side of things going. Um, so I'll pause there. Any questions on that part before I get into like the dec- the decision- Yeah, yeah... to leave and that side of things? Well, I'm so...
I'm curious like basically, so you were... If you were at like at 500 when you joined, um, I'm curious- Yeah... first where, where you got... where you were when you ended, how big the audience was. Yeah.
I think the audience was around, really around where it is right now, uh, around like 16 to 17,000.
So it was a combination of organic Twitter, LinkedIn, and then they also put quite a bit of paid spend behind it, uh, which is one of the like arrangements as part of being, uh, as being in the network, was like they would use their resources to help grow the newsletter with, with paid, which was another reason I was like, "Oh, this is amazing."
Yeah. Like, "Let's, let's do this and get this in front of more people." Um, so yeah, grew quite a bit between those. I think it was two years or so.
The, the trade-off, if I, if I remember when I was talking to Brett, he was saying that like basically you get, as a creator in the network, you get kind of a set fee, and then they do the advertising and stuff.
So like any, like you get, you know, a fair fee, but any upside- Yeah... they're then taking in, right? Yeah, for sure.
So like the, the win-win side of it is like, okay, I get this flat fee, I get a percentage of the ad spend, but they also pocketed, uh, a good chunk of the, um, the ad spend to make it worth their time. So- Yeah...
yeah, that's kinda the setup. This is, which is, it's really interesting to me that like, you know, there's a few people who've come in and out. Like, it seems like- Mm-hmm... I don't know.
And Brett too was like, uh, only good things to say, just like, "You know, I, I couldn't commit so much time to it in the way that like I had to-" Yeah... to justify being part of it. Um, I don't...
I, I need to talk to... I need to have Adam on this, I think, at some point, uh, to, to get into all that. But yeah. Okay, so decision to leave. Why? What happens there? Yeah. Yeah.
I mean, um, the short answer is that, uh, the best way to monetize my newsletter was through the agency- Yeah... not necessarily through ad sales, and that's pretty much it.
[laughs] Like, we weren't selling a ton of ads, and it didn't make sense for them to keep trying to sell ads and like try to make that work, but it was really good for lead gen and for the agency.
So it really just made more sense for both parties to like, okay, I'm gonna use this as a media property for the agency to get leads there, and then like... Yeah, that's pretty much it. So nothing like super complex.
Um, very like amicable, and it was like honestly the best move for both of us. Um, but that was pretty much the, the TLDR there. That makes sense.
So leads, um, is the newsletter where you've gotten the majority of the leads? 'Cause you have like a pretty big... I think you're like 30,000 on LinkedIn, uh- Yeah... pretty decent on Twitter too. I forget.
Is, is the newsletter where you're getting a lot of the leads for the agency, or is it the social platforms? Where are the most leads coming from and the best leads for the agency?Yeah.
Every time I send out a newsletter, I get three to five waitlist signups, and for a high-ticket service like ours, that's fantastic. Yeah. So most of the time the funnel looks like this.
They'll find us through LinkedIn, they'll subscribe to my newsletter, they'll be indoctrinated by my newsletter weekly, and I also have like a 30-day sequence built out in Beehiiv, um, that just they get a piece of value from me pretty much every day.
And it's just such a good way to build trust with that potential buyer. Um, so yeah, the newsletter is one of the main channels where, like we're driving traffic. So before it was LinkedIn and Twitter.
Honestly, Twitter right now has not been amazing for us. Um, it's very quickly switched over to mainly LinkedIn as the top-of-funnel traffic source, and then they'll subscribe to my newsletter.
And yeah, like I said, every time I send out an edition of the newsletter, I'll get anywhere from three to five waitlist signups, and it's pretty much kept us at or near capacity, uh, going back to when we first started the agency.
Yeah. Super nice. Um, okay. A, a tangent for a second. Two days ago- Yeah...
you had this tweet, uh, "Twitter has devolved from being a core part of our marketing strategy to being a stream of consciousness for my ideas that won't pop on LinkedIn or IG." Um- Yeah... tell me about that devolution.
You were kinda just touch- touching on it.
Honestly, the content's just not performing as well anymore, and the effort that it takes to get a piece of content to perform well on Twitter in like a niche specific, like business relevant way- Yeah...
that's not just mainstream political drama or rage bait or, or super, super top-of-funnel stuff that's not even remotely related to your business is...
It's pretty difficult right now unless you're doing these like paid promotion type of things, which I don't even wanna get into. [laughs] It's just like kinda black hat, like, "I'll pay you to retweet my thing."
It's like, okay. Yeah. Maybe it works for some people, but not a, not a game that I really wanna play. Um,
without that, it's really hard to grow organically right now, and even when a post does perform well, the translation into link clicks or even follows is so low that
it would take so many posts performing so well for you to even see an impact from the platform. And the way I like to pick my social platforms is what is going to get you the most output for the least input. Hm. So
LinkedIn is great for that right now because it does take effort to write a good LinkedIn post, but it's pretty straightforward. Yeah.
If you have a good hook and the content quality's good, especially if you're good on video right now, they're really indexing on that.
It's pretty hard not to grow on LinkedIn if you're posting once or twice a day, you're commenting and engaging. You're gonna grow on the platform, and you're gonna get in front of the right type of people.
Uh, Instagram, I would say is harder, but- Yeah... when you get it right, there's a lot more upside. Like if you get a million views on a Instagram video, that's gonna translate for sure into followers.
You'll likely drive some link clicks. Um, a few of my friends right now are really doing well on Instagram for their newsletter growth and, and their businesses. Um, so that's also promising. I still think- Mm-hmm...
LinkedIn for a B2B agency is the no-brainer- Well, that's, that's your whole bread and butter... best platform. Exactly. And we use it and we like, uh, yeah, we use our own strategy.
Um, but yeah, to answer your original question, Twitter has a special place in my heart. I still use it 'cause I like it and it's fun, but from a business perspective, it's not great right now. Yeah.
Could that change in the future? Like, if you're watching this in 2025, maybe. I hope so. I'd be very happy if it did, but I don't know. Right now it's tough. Yeah. No, I agree. Um, okay, so one more thing on Twitter.
When I was looking back at the, the last interview we did, which was published August 2022, um, you mentioned how your kind of greatest hit on Twitter, your most successful post was this one, and I went back and read it.
This thread about how Minions: The Rise of Gru had like killed it on social and the box office and like the relationship between those two things. Um, so that was two years ago.
I w- I was wondering if you have any like greatest hits, whether, whether on Twitter or LinkedIn or the newsletter, whatever, any like greatest hits since then that have just killed it for you in the same way that you were thinking of that as a greatest hit?
Oh, man. The one that comes to mind actually isn't on LinkedIn or Twitter, it's on Instagram. Oh. Recently, there was like a one-week run earlier this year where I had four or five videos really pop.
Uh, the one that hit the most was, you know that guy on Instagram, Davis Clark? He's like this- Yeah, I love-... corporate consulting guy. Oh, yeah, I remember you did this. Love Davis Clark. Yes.
[laughs] So I did a short form video. [laughs] Like this is gonna be so random to anyone who has zero context around this, but he ran a marathon and like PR, got sub-three.
After the race is over, he takes an Instagram, or like a selfie Instagram reel video, and there's shit running down his leg, and again, this is gonna make no sense to anyone without context.
Look, you gotta look up Davis Clark. But there's shit running down his leg. Look him up on Instagram if you're listening to this and you don't know who he is. Yes. It's pretty funny. Uh, it's hilarious.
Um, and then Dude Wipes, the like wipes brand is in the comments, uh, making jokes, and they're like active on Twitter, jump, jumping into any of the conversation around it.
Masterclass in social listening and community engagement.
So I make a short form video going over what happened, the strategy, how Dude Wipes executed this so well, and that video got, I think it's at 1.6 million views right now. Damn.
And that, I think, was the, the biggest hit in terms of like virality. More recently on LinkedIn, the short form video side of things has been pretty cracked out, and I've had a few videos hit 1 million or 1.5 million.
The impressions numbers on LinkedIn are a little bit sketchy. Hm. I, I wouldn't value those the same as I would value a 1.5 million on Instagram.
I think they're still figuring out their stuff when it comes to short form video. Uh, very promising, but yeah, greatest hit was that like Davis Clark short form video.
Then I had a few other ones that hit 500K, 600K, just all in like a week span. Hm. The problem was it did nothing for my business, and- Yeah... we're super busy right now at the agency.
So I was like, "Okay, this is cool. Quite the dopamine hit, but this is a total distraction at this point in time." Um-I actually am right now starting to get back into it. Wait, was that hitting?
So was that hitting just like- Yeah... uh, was it a matter of, like, timing?
Like, that video had just been posted, and you did it, like, a, a day later, and then so, like, that's kind of why the algorithm coalesced around that, and then maybe it was, like, a few other videos in, like, the trail of that, and then it trailed off?
Like, why do you think that hit so well? Yeah. So that video, I think I did it... It was within a week of his video going live. Yeah. So kinda similar to that Minions Twitter thread.
It was very much a trend jacking, uh, video. It was for sure top of funnel because m- people outside of marketing and business know Davis Clark.
It's like mainstream Instagram users who just watch it for- He has, like, a million followers or something now. Yeah.
Yeah, so if you're just watching Instagram for, as like brain rot after work, you're gonna know who Davis Clark is probably.
Like, obviously there's some people that don't, but it's pretty likely that a lot of people will. Mm.
Um, so that with the trend of that video having gone live a week before, I think contributed to, contributed to it doing well.
If I would've posted that same video now, for example, it might have done decent, but it wouldn't have done as well as it did. The other video that week that really crushed was, um,
this video detailing Mark Zuckerberg's PR strategy. Oh, yeah. I think this was when the gold chain meme, um- The debut. Yeah, yeah. Mm-hmm.
So when that meme was going around, and everyone was like, "Whoa, what happened to Zucks?" Like, "He used to look like an a- alien. Now he's, like, cool and stylish. What's going on here?"
I did a video on that and how that tied into founder-led branding. Mm-hmm. And that one did pretty well.
And then there was another one that I did on, uh, a sponsorship that Ramp did in the Masters, um, which was actually during that weekend, so that was also a timely one.
So I think the common thread is if you can find a topic that's relevant to you and your niche and is timely that a lot of people are talking about, that is by far the easiest way to get virality relatively predictably.
Yeah.
It's harder because you have to be on it, and it's, it's not as evergreen, so it can turn into a bit of a treadmill, which is honestly why I didn't really keep that going, uh, 'cause it didn't really make sense for my business at the time.
Um, but yeah, I think that's, like, the, the lesson there in terms of content strategy. Yeah, that makes sense. Um, so one more thing. When I was talking to you last time and looking back at the interview- Mm-hmm...
uh, I asked you how much time you were spending on Tommy Clark stuff as opposed to Triple Whale full-time job stuff, and you said you- Yeah...
basically spent, like, five or six hours every Sunday working on your own content.
So I'm curious how that's changed because now it's like, you know, you run a company, but you still make this, like, just Tommy content, but it's lead gen for your business.
So I don't know if there, like, is a demarcation there. Tell me about, like, the relationship between Tommy as a brand and Compound as a company. Yeah, it's interesting. So there's definitely a lot...
It's a lot closer of a relationship now, obviously, since my content is lead gen for my company, but there still is a pretty clear demarcation.
Um, reason being is that fortunately, like I said, we're in a position where lead gen really isn't the bottleneck for us. Um, like, we have a wait list.
It's a great problem to have, but it's still a problem that I'm trying to solve. And- Mm-hmm...
as such, like, a lot of my focus has had to go towards hiring and recruiting and training and all the op stuff that's sort of on the back end.
So I would actually say that the, the split between the time that's spent on that and the client work and my own content is actually still pretty similar.
I'll do about an hour or two a day, two on the high end, but most likely an hour, hour and a half of my own content, whether it be my newsletter or social content, usually in the morning.
Then I'll still do on the weekend, uh, usually Sunday, a sort of larger block of focus time on my own content, and that's usually enough to get me what I need for the next week or two weeks, um, to where I'm not really struggling for content output, and it leaves me plenty of time to make sure clients are happy, make sure my team's happy, do all the hiring stuff, sales calls, all the other things that add up.
Um, so I would say I'm still definitely that, like, creator-operator hybrid. Mm-hmm. Um, and it's tempting to go more and more in that creator direction. Um, but
right now, more time spent on content isn't necessarily going to be what's gonna drive growth for our business now. Do you have any, like- The county team in place-... goals for- Yeah...
like, your personal content and your personal brand, whatever? Do you have any goals against that you're working with other than just, like, lead gen for the business, or is that it? Honestly, no.
At the end of the day, it's, like, I wanna get customers. Yeah.
Um, I've thought about this a lot, and I go back and forth, but for me personally, building the agency as, like, its own business and having that run and be able to run eventually, like, without me being the bottleneck, is just a lot more appealing to me than
solely being a creator. There's no right or wrong answer there. Mm. But, like, for me personally, that's the route that I'm going. So whether I have 10,000 followers or 100,
if it's driving leads for the agency, and we're in a good spot there, I'm good. Now, do I ha- like, generally want to get from, say, 30,000 on LinkedIn to 50? Uh, sure. It's not urgent.
Whether that happens in Q4 or, like, end of next year doesn't really matter to me if we're in a good spot with the agency.
Um, that said, it's like I know content is driving leads, and pretty much all our leads aren't referrals for the agency, so it's, it's a major focus.
It's just not so much on getting to a certain number of followers or driving brand deals, which might be the case for other creators. Yeah. So, um, let's talk about money for a second. You were about to touch on that.
Yeah. We don't have to get into, like, specific details. You know, I'm not gonna make you- Mm-hmm... divulge your, your tax returns, but a few things.
One, how long did it take you to replace your full-time Triple Whale salary, uh, once you started doing the freelancing into the agency? So I was actually making more from freelance stuff than my salary when I left.
[scoffs] Like already, before you left? Yeah. Wow. Yeah.Um, which was part of the reason why I left when I did. Honestly, I'm pretty risk-averse, I would say. Mm.
Like, I'm not one of the burn the boats, like, go all in, no options, like, type of people. Yeah. Um, so I probably stayed longer than I needed to. Honestly, I loved the job. It was so much fun, and- You were good...
even when I left... Yeah, it was, it was so fun. And even now, being a CEO is very different than being a social media manager. Better in some ways, and not so much so in other ways. Yeah.
Um, it was a fun job, and I didn't really want to necessarily get out as quickly as possible. Um, then also on the financial side, like, I was...
I definitely skewed more to the side of, "Hey, I'd rather make sure I'm in a good spot here before I make this jump," than the whole put your back against the wall, burn the boats, that sort of mentality.
And again, no right or wrong answer- Yeah... but that's just what worked for me. [laughs] It worked well. Um, are there any, like... So I don't... You've never really had, like, a full, like, creator
business model where you're, like, monetizing through, like, ads and, like, sponsorships and videos, et cetera. Um, but I don't know.
I'm cur- like, the way you were just talking about being so risk-averse, it sounds like there's a reason for that because that is kind of so hard and risky and hard to uphold. Um, I don't know.
I'm curious though if there's any, like, kind of creator-first business models out there that you admire or think are, like, really smart, even if you don't practice them. Yeah, that's a good question.
Um, I mean, the one that comes to mind that I think is just crushing it right now is Oranjohn, like, on Instagram- Oh, he's great... on pretty much any platform.
Like, when I look at people who I would like to emulate in terms of their content strategy, uh, and, like, how they're approaching things, and I think this is the answer for a lot of people, but I think he is doing really, really well, and that's not surprising.
Uh, my good friend Alex Garcia runs Marketing Exam- Examined, and he's also doing an amazing job. Um, they kinda do a hybrid of ad sales and some services stuff.
Um, I think those are the two that come to mind that are doing really well right now that I look to and think, like, their content is really high quality, um, and have a, a super interesting business model.
That makes sense. Um, okay, so since we last spoke, I think the B2B creator landscape has really exploded.
That's obviously, like, how your, y- entirely how you make your money is, like, contributing to that and helping it explode. Uh, which so obviously that growth is good for your bottom line.
But has the increased saturation presented any challenges for, like, either the work you do personally with, like, you know, your personal brand stuff or with your clients?
Or is it just kind of, you know, more for everybody? Honestly, not really. I haven't thought about it that much. Um, if you're good at what you do, you'll be fine. That's my mentality when it comes to it.
We're so busy, and not even just from, like, a we have enough clients, but just- Yeah... things are so busy right now that I haven't had time to think about what anyone else is doing.
[laughs] Um, so it's just not really, [chuckles] it's just not really a concern to me.
And honestly, like, I think it's just more helpful and more productive to turn that focus inward and just get really good at your craft. And like I said, if you're good at what you do, you're...
And you're, if you're good at what you do and you give a good client experience, or if you're working, like, a, a more traditional creator model and your sponsors are getting good returns or getting a good experience, like, you're gonna be in a good spot.
Um- Yeah... so I just, I don't really pay it any attention. [laughs] That makes sense. Uh, so you're obviously really good at this. Like, the, kind of what you just said, you're not really worrying about it, et cetera.
You have no problem getting clients. You're putting out all this content. You've got all these systems, et cetera.
Um, I wonder if you could tell me, like, what, what type of person isn't good at this, or, like, what kind of traits, you know, in a person, like, don't help with this?
I think the posting life isn't really for everybody, um, and I, like, I think it's good to, like, caution people. Like, "Look, if you can't hack X, Y, Z, whatever, you're not good at it."
What, like, what are, what do you think, I don't know, maybe what do you... What, what, what's necessary to succeed in the poster's life, and then maybe what will really get in the way of success?
You just have to like it and enjoy it. [laughs] I love this stuff.
A- it's, it's such a simple answer, and it's not fancy, it's not some hack or tip or trick, but it's probably the single biggest thing, whether it's someone like me or our clients.
Um, I've gotten to the point now where I have a team around me, and maybe I don't have to be as chronically online. I still probably am more than most people.
But when you go back to that time at Triple Whale or before that, uh, or even, like, during, like, the nutrition coach fitness- Yeah...
business days, I was just binge-watching any, like, Gary Vee video I could, or reading any article I could, being on the Instagram- And then just applying it... timeline. Yeah, and just applying it right away.
I haven't taken a marketing class ever. My degree is in applied nutrition. I also thought I was gonna be a doctor at some point. Like, I haven't studied this traditionally ever. Yeah. Um,
but I really enjoyed it, and I just went super deep down the rabbit hole. And it was kinda during that COVID period where I had nothing else to do besides coast through online classes and just work on stuff- Yeah...
um, that I just went super deep down the rabbit hole and really immersed myself in it.
And again, now I'm at a point where I can build systems and build a team and, and, again, not have to be as attached to the timeline all the time.
But there is gonna be that period early where you just have to get a ridiculous amount of reps in. Yeah. Um, and it's just kinda the price you have to pay. Well, wait, wait, wait. And I enjoy it. Wait.
I wanna talk about- Yeah... this early period. So I know, I think the nutrition videos I found, uh, maybe they're, they were as far back as 2018, whatever. But I'm curious- Yeah...
like, even before that, like, were you, like, 13 making, like, YouTube lip sync videos? Whatever it is. Like, what... When did you, like, really start doing this?
No, I definitely wasn't one of those, like, child creators. [laughs] I started, uh, I think it was the second half of my freshman year of college. Mm-hmm. So it was in 2018.
Um, it was right around the time when I got super into the health and fitness world. So like I said, I actually wanted to be a doctor.
I was getting a biology major, and then somehow, I think it's 'cause I was, I was playing basketball, and I got super into sports nutrition and that whole world.
And then I started helping my friends out with their diets and, um-That was decently successful. And then I was like, "Oh, you can actually build a business around this thing? Cool, like I wanna start doing that."
And then I started doing that as a side hustle in college, and that was my first exposure to content 'cause I had to get clients for it outside of just my immediate friends and family. Yeah.
And I saw that everyone had an Instagram, so I was like, "Okay, I'm gonna go create an Instagram for this."
And that's when I started watching all of Gary Vee's stuff and, uh, other like marketing thought leaders and whatever to learn how to use those platforms.
But yeah, it definitely wasn't a super, super early thing- Yeah... in my childhood. Um, but probably earlier than most. Um- Yeah, yeah... I think I was around 18 years old. That's...
And yeah, I mean, and looking back too, it's like it's quality. You were putting the effort in.
Um, so speaking of like all the systems and now, you know, you've, you've, you've built all these systems within the business, and I'm sure like for your personal flow as well, um, uh, do you use AI at all in your production process besides for interview transcripts?
Or is it kinda just like, "I don't need that, doesn't really help"? Yeah, it's a great question. Uh, so the interview transcripts are probably the biggest use of it we have right now.
Um, and then I've been playing around with some tools on the content production side and ideation side. Uh, I've used ChatGPT occasionally, Claude occasionally. Yeah. Actually building a SaaS product coming soon.
I can't say too much about it yet. I know. I did see some- But-... teaser tweets. I, I, I will link to it, yeah... this is coming soon. Um, and it is in that category- Okay... and it actually is very good.
I can't say too much about it yet, so I hate to like do the whole cliffhanger thing. Yeah. Um, I think my co-founder will kill me. Um, but, um, have been using that quite a bit in our content workflow, and I'll...
I can share more about that in the future. Yeah. Um, w- okay. Well, you don't have to tell me what this thing is, but how did you, how long, like how long have you been working on this SaaS thing?
I, I wanna know, I wanna know anything you could give me. Like, is it- Yeah... like, you know, like three months ago you met this person, you started talking about this thing. You're like, "Wait, we have to do this."
Like, why, why are you starting a, a SaaS business? Yeah. No, it's a good question. Um, been working on it for a few months. Okay. Uh, my co-founder had been working on it for, uh, for quite some time before that.
Um, and then connect- we connected. It's a great fit. The product made sense.
I had had the itch to get into the SaaS game, but I just had no bandwidth to do it as a solo founder, and I wasn't really actively trying to get into it. Um- Yeah...
but the co-founder fit was really strong and the product was high quality, and he was looking to someone, uh, for someone to support on the marketing side, which is obviously like my game. Yeah.
And selfishly, I wanted to be able to run a marketing motion for a company without- No layers... really client approval. Yeah. No layers, just me. I can do whatever I want, full creative freedom.
It's very fun, and I haven't had that in a while. I mean, aside from the agency. Yeah. Um, but yeah, so that's sorta how it came to be. All right. I won't push you on it more. Um- Okay.
Okay, I heard in another interview that you don't use social scheduling tools with clients, which I know like, uh, my old boss at a la- at a previous job, Ari, he, you know him, um, he has the same philosophy.
You know, just he, he writes, write it in the platform, publish it in the platform. You get in the mindset, I don't know, superstition about like the algorithm not liking scheduled whatever. Um,
so you don't use social scheduling tools. Does that create any complications when you're putting out like 200 pieces of content a week? Yes and no.
So we have someone on our team whose job it is literally to go through our client content and- Post everything... um, make sure it goes live and it's all good to go. Um, yeah, he's a part-time content coordinator.
He's amazing. Um, absolute lifesaver. Um, but yeah, we've built out that motion so we don't have to rely on a social scheduling tool. That said,
if you need to schedule your content, it's not gonna make or break anything. Like my... I think the reason why it tends to work better when you go in and post your own stuff is just because you're online to engage.
Um, whether or not the scheduler tool affects the actual performance of the post, platforms will tell you it doesn't. It's hard to tell. I don't think it's enough to really worry about it. Yeah.
And this is probably one of the things that I've changed my mind on a bit in the past two, three years, um, just because now like running a company, I see that, oh, maybe it's not feasible to just expect yourself to be able to go in like whenever and post all this content.
[chuckles] Um, so if it's gonna help you be more consistent and get stuff out there, use it.
My warning or my recommendation if you are gonna use a scheduler tool is make sure you're still going in and replying to comments, engaging with other people proactively.
Uh, because if you're just gonna put it in your scheduler, send it off, and never log in to LinkedIn or Twitter or Instagram or whatever platform you're using, then you're not gonna grow just because- Mm-hmm...
you're not involved in the platform, in the community. Um, but I'm not sure anymore if it's like really this, the tool that's responsible for that. Yeah.
It's more about just how, how, how, how much are you paying attention. Exactly. Yeah. Yeah. Um, okay. I'm wondering if you have any, I'm su- I don't know if you have like a list.
You probably don't, but any like posting rules, poster's code. One of which like would be, uh, you know, I've heard you say like, "Post every day. If you wanna grow, you have to post every day," et cetera.
Um, I don't know. Any like kind of baseline rules you operate by in how you, you know, post and create content for social media? Yeah. I mean, I'll start with the cadence.
Um, like you mentioned, I would post daily or as close to daily as you can. With LinkedIn in particular, I'd recommend five to seven times per week, so one time per day, either on weekdays or just every day.
Uh, weekends can actually work pretty well. Um, doesn't matter a ton if you don't do it, but- Yeah... um, as close to daily as possible would be ideal.
Uh, LinkedIn is interesting actually in that if you post too much, it can actually hurt your performance.
So you, you're not gonna really wanna post more than twice in a day, um, unless it's for a very specific reason or if you have like a specific strategy around it. A big launch or something. Yeah. Exactly.
Maybe a big launch, but generally one time per day is sufficient. Um, as far as the actual postThe most important thing is the idea. Mm-hmm.
Like if the idea is not good, it's not gonna do well, no matter how you package it, no matter what little hacks or tactics you use. The idea has to be strong.
And if you're a founder, or even if you're not a founder, if you're like a creator or an employee that wants to post more on LinkedIn and grow your personal brand, lean on your own individual stories. Mm-hmm.
Um, you don't want to post generic fluff that anyone else could post. Like you should be able to look at your post without looking at the profile picture or the name and
be able to confidently say that like, "Hey, this post could only come from me." Have a clear point of view. Um, exactly. Have a clear point of view. Use your own experiences and anecdotes, uh, to support your takes.
So like for example, if I'm telling you, like we were talking about a second ago, my thoughts on social media scheduler tools and the approach there,
a bad version of the hook or an okay version that might pass some people's filter but isn't actually very good is, "Three things to consider when it comes to picking your social media scheduler tool."
[laughs] When it comes to- Fine, like-... is my least favorite. When it... I try to always- Yeah... never say when it comes to. Yeah. No, I, I'm with you on that. Um, but anyone could post that. Yeah.
That could be a output from ChatGPT. Yeah. But compare that to a story about a conversation that I was having with a client yesterday who asked me this question.
Or this is super meta, but tomorrow morning I could write that, "Hey, was on a podcast yesterday- [laughs]... and, and, um, the host asked me like what I thought about scheduler tools.
Like here's what I think and what I see with clients." Yeah. Like that's a much more compelling post. It still covers the same idea, but that can only come from me.
No one else is sitting in this chair right now that could like write that post.
Um, now, a more extreme version of this and, and one style of post that you see work very well is like if you're a founder who had some massive exit. So say you sold your company for $10 million or, uh, $50 million.
Us- using that in your hook and like sharing lessons from that experience, obviously a lot more- Yeah... compelling than someone sharing 10 business building lessons who has never done anything like that.
So the more that you can lean into your own experiences and get specific, the better the post is gonna be. Now, once you have that idea, you wanna make sure the hook is strong.
So the post could be really good, but if those first one to three lines are not, you're kinda screwed. Yeah. So you wanna put extra effort into those first one to three lines.
Think of it the same way that a YouTuber thinks of their title and thumbnail. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Like you've heard MrBeast or Ali Abdaal say that the packaging, that title and thumbnail, most important part of a video.
If that flops, doesn't matter how good the rest of the video was- Nobody's gonna see it... no one's watching. Yeah. Same thing with your LinkedIn content.
The meat of the post could be fantastic, but if no one clicks See More because that first one to three lines is not good- Yeah... doesn't really matter.
So I'll pause there, but if you nail the idea and the hook, you're probably 90% of the way there. Yeah. Okay, so I... One thing that I think is core, I understand is core to the way you guys operate- Mm-hmm...
is these like founder interviews, which is kind, which is kind of how you get this content that you're just, just... that you're describing here, where it's like, "Only I can write this." Yeah.
This seems to me like a core of what you guys do at Combat is you have these kind of like templatized lists of questions that you're probably often tweaking, adding to, whatever, um, and that's how you get probably like the bulk of the content you guys produce, right?
Is you're doing these interviews with founders and s- like, because it, it can be the same question, but it's gonna get the different answer. Um, and that's how you get these people to like spill...
'Cause they've got the stories in there, but they're just not gonna sit down and write it. So it's like this is kind of, you know, the, the core of how you guys operate, right?
These like, uh, 15, 20-minute calls where you're like, "Tell me about this time when you did X."
And it's like the same question to all the clients, but a different answer, and that's kind of how you guys power the 200-plus posts per week. Yeah, exactly.
The bulk of what we write for clients is just stuff that's living in their own head that we mandate- Stuff they say... and package. Yeah. Yeah. I...
The way I frame it to them is, "The stuff that we're producing for you should be the content that you would sit down and write anyway if you had the time or skill to do it on your own."
Um, so it's all the stuff that's living in their head, and yeah, we use like... We pretty much sit down like we're sitting down right now on this podcast interview, and I'll run them through the questions.
Um, some are kinda constant across clients, some are specific to the client- Yeah... if there's like a particular topic or something that's unique to them that we wanna dive into. But
using that allows us to get those examples and anecdotes that only they could post about. Um, and then occasionally we'll do like our own research or if we see a article or a trend that could be interesting.
But even then, we'll ask the client for their commentary on it, so that piece is still unique to their experience and their thoughts versus being a more general piece. Yeah. That makes sense.
Um, just a few more questions. One, YouTube. So you've got, [laughs] again, the old YouTube. Uh, it's got a, like a few thousand subscribers. The videos are doing pretty good.
Um, and then you started- I'm sure it's still getting views. I haven't, I haven't- Still getting views... looked at it at all. Haven't opened up YouTube Studio. Um- No...
but then you've got the newer one, where you've been making videos for I think like the past eight months, um- Yeah... like, as, you know, kind of an extension of what you write about in the newsletter.
Tell me about the YouTube, and are you like scripting videos, et cetera? How are you approaching YouTube now, and how has it changed from when you were doing it a few years ago? Yeah.
Honestly, the approach is actually pretty similar. Um, the niche is very different, and right now the way we're thinking about YouTube, I'm... I think of it more as lead nurture than- Mm-hmm...
a way for people to find us. That's gonna change shortly. We actually just started working with a partner on YouTube. Uh, still very early, so I can't really speak to any results there.
But, um, gonna be a lot more of a focus in Q4. Big things coming. But up until this point... Yeah, the, the classic big things coming.
Um, but up until this point, the way that I've vi- viewed YouTube and video in general is just a way for people to build trust with me at a much- Mm-hmm... faster rate.
So if someone can see me and hear me and kinda sit down kind of with... for like a c- a sort of conversation with me- Yeah... they're gonna build trust and know that I understand what I'm doing.
Um-At a much faster rate than seeing a tweet or even a LinkedIn post, or even like a newsletter to some degree. Yeah.
Like there's alway-- there's still like that missing ingredient in the written word that you just don't- You have more control over your character as it's presented. Exactly.
So YouTube has been great for us, and what happens a lot of the time is, like I was saying earlier, people will find us through LinkedIn and then either go to the newsletter or my YouTube, or usually both, and by the time they've read my newsletter content and they've consumed my YouTube content, if they get on a sales call with me, they're already sold.
Like, they know our playbook. Yeah. They know our language. That personal relationship is there. Yeah. Yeah, like they get on the call, they feel like they know me, 'cause they kinda do.
At least they know my thought process when it comes to social and content strategy. So it just makes that sales process so much easier.
Now, the next stage for YouTube for us is gonna be figuring out how to get new people to find us from YouTube. Mm-hmm.
We're not really seeing that yet just 'cause honestly I hadn't put that much time and effort into thumbnails, and the whole packaging thing we were talking about a few minutes ago- Mm.
I hadn't put as much time and effort into that on YouTube. Um, but even if you have 100 subscribers or 300 or 300... I think 380 or 67 like we do right now, um, you can still drive a lot of business- Yeah...
just by nurturing the people that are finding you through other platforms like LinkedIn or Twitter or Instagram. Just make a flywheel, as they always say. Um, okay, last question. Uh, we've...
I mean, you've, you've given a lot of good advice and such, but, um, if there's any advice you would leave the audience with about competing in the attention economy generally, or whether it's, you know, LinkedIn newsletter, um, maybe there's rules that cut across all of them.
I don't know. Any advice that comes to mind? There's a lot. The one that came to mind first is just keep going.
I've been posting content for, I think it's close to seven years, if not more than that now, which even that is not that long. Yeah.
But you see a lot of people come and go when it comes to posting content, and if you can simply just keep going and keep publishing consistently for months and years, it's pretty hard not to win. Yeah.
Uh, and even during that time, you're gonna have pivots. Like we were talking about with me, I started in the health and fitness category. Yeah.
And then there was like a brief e-sports phase, and then I went to like marketing, B2B marketing, and now I'm here. You had the podcast for like a year. Yeah, and I think, I think I found my spot.
I don't think we're pivoting out of this- You're doing good [laughs]... anytime soon.
Um, but it takes some time to sort of find that niche that works for you and build that weird blend of skills that puts you in a unique position to win in that niche.
Um, like, I don't think I'd be winning how we are right now if I didn't have that experience in the health and fitness world- Definitely... and learning that original content strategy there. Um,
so that doesn't happen if I bow out a year in, or even two years or three years in. And it's the same thing with business. I'm very quickly learning with building the agency.
There was a period last year where I was so close to a breaking point, like we were talking about earlier, before I made that first hire. I was like, "I don't know if this is for me." Yeah.
But I was actually talking to, um, you know Marcus, who runs Minted New York? Uh, yeah. Mm-hmm. So I was in New York, and I think I had just gone on a run with him, and I forget how this came up in a conversation.
But he was like, "Yeah, like number one piece of advice when it comes to like the business stuff is just like, just keep going. It's a war of attrition." Yeah.
And it's very much the same in that category, and also just in the content game. If you can just keep posting for- Find a way...
say five years, 10 years, it's pretty unlikely that you're gonna win, unless you're just actively trying not to learn what's working and not. Yeah.
Like if you're posting and you're implementing those, uh, trends that you're seeing or those learnings that are coming from it, you're gonna be fine.
So I think everything else is downstream of that because if you're not consistent and you're not posting, you're just not gonna learn anything and you're not gonna grow. Just keep posting. Uh, all right. Yeah. That's it.
Um, what do you wanna plug? Yeah, so obviously we got the agency going. If you're a B2B founder and you want help growing on LinkedIn, I would love to chat and see if there's a fit.
Um, and then honestly, more importantly for us right now, if you're a writer or a creator that's listening to this and you're like, "Hey, I wanna get some reps in, learn how to do this whole LinkedIn thing," uh, the content writer position at our agency would probably be a great fit as, for a more junior, uh, person.
So- If you've listened to this whole podcast, you're probably a good fit. Yeah, exactly. So if you're looking for a role like that, would love to chat. Uh, my LinkedIn is probably the best way to get in touch with me.
Um, yeah, that's all I've got. But really appreciate you having me on. Yeah, of course. This was great. You're a pro. All right. Yeah. This has been the Creator Spotlight podcast. And listener, I will see you next week.
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