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Welcome back to the Creator Spotlight Podcast. My guest today is Tyler O'Shea, who's been running a sports publication called Joker Mag for the last six and a half years.

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He tells me that the website gets some fifty thousand page views per month. The newsletter has around thirteen thousand subscribers, and all the socials combined have over twenty-two thousand followers.

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His focus is underdog sports stories, which clearly resonate with people, and I wanted to interview him because I really resonated with an ernesty and drive in how he presents himself and his content online.

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Um, we'll get into his origin story soon. It's a good one. Uh, it kind of knocks it up why he does what he does perfectly. But anyways, Tyler, in your own words, who is Tyler O'Shea, and what does he do?

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My name is Tyler O'Shea, and I run jokermag.com. Um, and you described it perfectly. It's basically the home of inspiring underdog stories in sports.

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Um, and my entire life, I've kind of been infatuated with stories like that. Um, always loved when kind of ESPN would have a little, like, side breakdown of a player with a great story.

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Um, and I figured why not build a place to house kind of all of those stories in one place. Yeah.

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Um, going back to, like, the origin story a bit, 'cause I do want to talk about that, and we don't need to like, you know, rehash it all 'cause you've documented it very well. But I think it's rare to find someone...

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Like, I think all the best creators, right, like, do what they do and have the energy to keep doing it for years because it's something they really care about and are interested in.

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But, like, my understanding is in, like, seventh grade, you were trying out for the baseball team at school, and you got cut and, you know, it, it sucked and you're upset.

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Um, but so you, like, kind of sought out some of these underdog stories online, but from just like baseball and other sports, and that really inspired you, and that's kind of why you do what you do, correct?

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Exactly, yeah. And, and baseball was my life pretty much all my whole life, pretty much through college. Um, it's been everything to me. Like, my dad played baseball through college, my brother and myself.

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Um, but yeah, that day getting cut, like, I, I des- I honestly deserved to. Like, I was smaller than the other kids. Like, I was taking crow hops from shortstop, like, really just not able to swing the bat well.

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Like, it was a heavier bat that at the time. Um, and yeah, I mean, I just remember going up, like, I guess a day or two later, up to my parents' room. We had one, like, desktop, old desktop computer in the house.

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Oh, I miss those days. And I went up there. The computer room. Exactly.

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And I was just searching, like searching the web, and I was like, um, Tim Lincecum was big at the time, a big pitcher for the Giants, and he was a smaller guy. Um, David Eckstein, Dustin Pedroia, guys like that.

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And I was just kind of looking for that hope of like, is it possible for a guy like me at my size to, you know, make my dream come true and just continue playing baseball as long as I possibly could? Um, and I did.

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I found that evidence there that's, that kind of provided that hope for myself and kind of instilled like an extra bit of confidence in me to kind of double down and just say, "All right, it might not happen this year, but it's gonna happen next year," and whatever.

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And then just throughout the years, I've kind of progressed and grew and ended up playing through, um, college at McDaniel College. Nice.

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Um, the, so something about, like, the athlete mentality, I think, and the creative mentality and the founder mentality, and I would say, like, the way you operate Joker Mag, you're like kind of, you're kind of between media founder and creator.

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I'd almost call you more of like a media founder. But anyways, all that to say, back in February, I interviewed this woman, Jade Buffon Phillips, um, who is a lifelong athlete.

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She did track and field stuff, uh, and she's a creator, and she's a founder, and her content, maybe you read this one, her content is about being a founder.

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Um, and I was really struck by like the relationship between being an athlete, being a creator, being a founder, and it's all this like overcoming adversity and,

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and, you know, just like having to deal with like the odds being against you.

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So I'd, I'd love if you could speak more to like how those things connect and if you agree that like the mentality for all those things is fundamentally the same. I a hundred percent agree.

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I think recently I had a conversation with a colleague of mine, um, at work, and he was saying like, "Don't overlook the athlete background."

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I think it's something that now that I'm in my late twenties I've kind of forgotten about. Like, I don't really talk about it much on my resume and stuff like that, and it's like, um, baseball is a game of failure.

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Like, seven times out of ten, you can fail and you're a great player. Um, so

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I think just the mental toughness that that builds of like just knowing that you're going out there and you're gonna fail a lot and you're gonna make yourself look bad.

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Like, um, I coached briefly after college, um, as an assistant hitting coach for, um, a local, local college near us, and I always told my players this story of like this, my first playoff game in college, I struck out every single time I went to the plate.

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[laughs] My whole family was there, and it was like, honestly, like the most embarrassing performance of my entire baseball career, and I was like, I couldn't even look like my, my family in the eye.

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I was like- Didn't show up to the big game. Exactly.

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And it was like, that was kind of another pivotal point where it's like, okay, you know, you could have a terrible day, but, you know, two days later we had another playoff game, and I had to mentally reset myself, um, and ended up having a much better game.

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But it's like

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in the world of, you know, media or whatever you're building, like you have, you're gonna have those moments where you're down and, um, things aren't going your way, but you just need to consistently get after it and just kind of stay

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mentally sharp, I guess. Like, don't get too high, don't get too low. Um, and that's definitely what baseball taught me. Yeah. No, that's really cool. I, like I said, I wasn't an athlete growing up.

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My family just wasn't a sports family. I, uh, s- and I, I kind of... I mean, I've turned out all right, but sometimes I, I regret that.

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Like, my biggest regret, uh, in life is my mom signed me up for soccer in first grade, and I complained, and she, she acquiesced and didn't make me- Mm-hmm... didn't make me do it. Um, so maybe I learned that.

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Maybe I learned like how to, you know, overcome failure through playing video games. Just what I did instead. But- Mm-hmm...

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anyways, all that to say, after college, you, I think like-You graduated, and then you started doing Joker Mag right around the same time, and then maybe about two years later you started working in SEO.

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So we'll get there, but I wanna go back to that, that origin point and, like, you told me over email that you basically didn't know what you wanted to do for a career. Mm-hmm.

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But you did wanna just write about things you enjoyed. So, uh, two questions about that. First, why... Were you, were you, like, always somebody who wanted to write?

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What drive you to writing as opposed to, like, YouTube or podcasting? Yeah.

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So my teachers kind of in all through middle school and high school kinda told me, like, "Hey, um, we think you have a little bit of a talent for writing." And I al- it was always, like, the class I enjoyed most.

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Um, and to be totally honest, like, right after college, I was not a great writer. Like, I was used to, like, essay form writing and, like, long form and just kinda, like, fluffing things up.

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Um, so it definitely took a lot of time to learn how to write for the internet and for an audi- an audience in sports.

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Um, but I started writing, like, immediately after graduating for a local, um, Philly sports publication.

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It was, like, kind of an upstart, and it was all, like, volunteer work, and it was just a way to get some articles published under my own name.

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And from there I was like, "Why not start my own thing, like, where I have total creative freedom?"

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I always loved Bill Simmons, uh, his old website grantland.com, and then The Ringer was starting up around that point, and it was just really cool.

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Like, I would find myself, like you said earlier, uh, just, like, reading long form stories.

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I, I was just obsessed with just clicking over, and I'm like, okay, I'm clicking all these links, and I'm like, man, I, I have, like, 10 tabs open right now on this one website, and it's like I'm going down the rabbit hole.

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And I wanted to make somewhere where people could have that experience too. So it really didn't start with too much of a vision. It was just, like, I wanna write about things I enjoy. Mm.

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And then eventually it kinda narrowed down to, to the theme I'm focused on now. Yeah. No, that's... I really like that.

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I think the, like, not being good at writing or, like, having this style or, like, not necessarily not being good, but, like, not knowing how to do the thing that you ended up doing now.

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Like, when I graduated college, I also, like, wanted to be a writer, but I couldn't make myself write. I didn't know, like, how to write outside of, like, writing essays for, for school. Yeah.

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Which I was good at, but it's like, uh, who's gonna give me the essay prompt now, you know? And it took me years, uh, to get past that. So, so I really like that. So, um,

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after that, you, like, you started doing that, and then eventually what you do now for your day job is you do SEO. Um, you started as an SEO consultant, and now I think you work full-time in-house at a brand.

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I think SEO is a very anxiety-ridden profession, 'cause it's always like the big Google update is coming out. Like, what the hell are we gonna do? Is this gonna, you know, render all of our work null and void?

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Um, and these days, obviously, there's the, the... I think an even bigger looming anxiety, not just for SEO, but for SEO as well, about, uh, AI, AI search, Google generating AI snippets.

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Um, not to get, like, too deep in the weeds of SEO, but I don't know. Are you, are you feeling that anxiety?

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And maybe, like, maybe both in relation to your day job, but also the fact that Joker Mag is, like, an empire built on SEO. Like, are you nervous about this?

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So people always ask me that, and I was actually going back and forth yesterday with a few friends of mine, um, in the SEO space, and Google just announced that they're rolling out these AI...

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They're calling them AI overviews. We've known them as search generative experience. Um- Is like the thing at the top of the- Search Labs and stuff. Exactly. Yeah. Those little snippets.

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Um, the results have been mixed in my experience. Like, I've been testing it for the past, I think, three or four months now. It's been rolled out to, like, people that...

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I don't know if people have a Google Analytics account, I guess they give you access. But long story short, no, I've never really worried about Google updates. I think search will always exist.

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Like, the way people use the internet is to search for things mainly. Um, even on, like, TikTok and stuff, people are searching.

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Like, I'll talk to my fiancée now, and it's like sh- I'll tell her, like, "Look up this recipe." Like, "I wanna make... We wanna make this cool dinner tonight." She doesn't open up Google.

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She opens up TikTok or Instagram or whatever, and, um, I think people are always gonna be seeking things out. Yeah.

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It's just a matter of how, like, how you approach that and reverse engineer that in, in terms of an SEO strategy. So, um, I think it'll always be around.

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It just depends on what form, and I think, you know, strategies will always be changing and evolving in response to those changes in the market. Yeah. No, that's fair.

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I think w- the recipe thing is really interesting, 'cause I, I hear people talk about TikTok search or Instagram search, like, look- to look up a recipe like you said.

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Um, but, like, when I look up a recipe, I'll look up, like, recipe blank Serious Eats in Google. Serious Eats. Mm-hmm. 'Cause I trust Serious Eats, and that's somewhere I've been a lot. Okay.

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But I'm wondering if, like... And, and I'll, I'll, like, bookmark recipes on, on, you know... I'm not much on TikTok, but, like, on Instagram there's, like, so many Instagram.

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Every day there's, like, a new recipe I wanna bookmark, et cetera. But I'm never going back, kind of just realizing now, to cook them. Um, and I, I wonder if that's just, like, almost a, like

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a, a thing where, like, in 10 years there would, there, there's gonna be nobody who had, like, learned about Serious Eats by, like, reading some article online. So they're just going...

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And now Serious Eats is just, like, a, an Instagram page where you go and save recipes. 'Cause I don't know. Now I'm just rambling a bit.

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But I think for me, like, it's still so much more intuitive to go to a website and have that on my phone rather than, like- Mm-hmm...

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open an Instagram Reel and, like, pull up the comments or the caption where the essay is. I don't know. I don't know. There's no question in here, but yeah, what do you think?

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I th- no, I think you brought up a great point of, like, brand trust, and I think that's the main thing that with Joker Mag, kind of bringing it back to there, is like my goal is not to bring in, like, search traffic forever.

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I want eventually the search traffic to, like, kinda go down in direct and returning visitors to be, like, my main source. Um, because I think that's true fans.

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Like, people that are coming directly, have your site bookmarked, like you said, and they're just coming back for that endless stream of content.

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Um, and that's kind of what the newsletter's about too is just, like, building up my base of true fans and people that really are hungry and starving for the content that I'm putting out.

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Um, and I think, you know, the market size, the market potential I think, I ran the numbers, like, number of MLB fans is, like, 150 million or something.

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If I could just capture, like, 1% of that, I could have a major-Oh, but that's, that's the hard part, right? Exactly. 'Cause then it's like what about, like, The Athletic or The Ring? Yeah. Like, I go to The Athletic.

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I'm a, I'm a soccer fan. I watch the Pr- the, the Premier League. And so- Yeah... every morning, I open up The Athletic, and I go to the, the Arsenal tab, the Premier League tab, and the Champions League tab. Yeah.

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So, like, what's... You know, th- that you, you mostly cover, like, baseball and football, I believe. Um, what... Like, what's stopping... Why does somebody go... Who i- Okay.

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Who is your true fan, and why do they go to Joker Mag rather than The Athletic or The Ringer or whatever? That's a great question.

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Um, it's something that over the past year I've learned a lot more about, of like, who my readers are. Um, it tends to be men 35 and up who are based in the US and just love these specific type of stories.

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Like, they're people that might read The Athletic or people that maybe don't even pay attention to, like, the score updates on a weekly basis.

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Um, just people that want that kind of, um, I guess dopamine hit of, like, an inspira- inspirational story, um, feel-good stories. Um- 'Cause you're not doing, like, the scores. Like, that's, that's not...

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There's no need to go to you for that. It can be done in stories. We're not in the news, news business at all.

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Um, in the, at the bottom of the newsletter, I might plug, like, a feel-good, like, topical news story if there's, if there's something good out there.

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But, um, it just tends to be people that just love, like, the off-the-field stories and the kind of the narratives that inspire you and motivate you to kind of improve in some aspects of your own life or maybe something you can relate to.

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Um, recently we did a story about a, a guy that, that, um, was born with some type of disability, and he's in a wheelchair, and he has now created his own sport, his own sport of, like, wheelchair motocross it's called.

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Um- [laughs] That's amazing... and it's amazing.

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Like, the guy, like, he goes on tour with Travis Pastr- Pastrana, who's a big name out there in this whole extreme sports field, and he does, like, double back flips, and he's, like, constantly pushing the envelope, and it's like he invented, uh, his own space for himself.

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And then I got so much great feedback from my readers of, like, "This is an amazing story. Like, I, I never heard of this sport obviously."

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And like, you know, a couple people that, that might be in a wheelchair have read my stories and s- and said like, "Oh, this particular story really struck a nerve with me because it's not really out there as much, and, um, it's something I can personally relate to," or just someone that, you know, just finds that type of story inspiring, um, in whatever challenge that they're facing personally.

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Yeah. No, that's awesome. Um, like, speaking of that story in particular, I am curious how you source your stories. Like, 'cause I know you have...

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You do some original interviews, and then you do some that are, like, stories that are out there that you're, like, taking and repackaging a bit.

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Um, do you have, like, just, like, a big list of, like, 500 stories where it's like, "Okay, I'll get to this one, and this one's scheduled for then?" Like, question is how do you source your content?

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How do you find these stories? Exactly. Yeah. I have a list of, like, 500 plus in a spreadsheet, um, just to kinda track, like, the original sources where I found them.

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Um, a lot of them come now through reader recommendations. So a reader will reply and say, "Hey, you should cover this person's story." So it's kind of like an endless stream of content ideas.

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Like, I kinda have that privilege.

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Like, when I listen to your other podcasts, like, people sometimes mention, like, a challenge of, you know, coming up with content ideas and how it's sometimes a challenge, but that's the fortunate thing is that these are evergreen stories usually.

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Mm-hmm. And, you know, it's just an endless, endless, like, nonstop funnel of, of these coming in, um, whether it's throughout history.

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Like, if I, if I just focused on, like, the 1950s, like, that could be my entire business if I wanted to. Yeah. So, um, there's so many great stories, like, throughout sports history in every sport.

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Um, and we're just focused on, like, really putting everything in one place, like, not only for, like, just all these stories but also, like, the person's story.

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We want to pull from multiple sources and kinda make the most comprehensive narrative about- Yeah... that person.

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Um, so I really pride myself in my research and just, like, kind of pulling from different sources, videos, podcasts, books that they've written or been a part of, um, to just kinda go the extra mile to, to tell the best story possible.

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Yeah. No, that makes sense. I think, too, like, just again the, the underdog concept.

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Like, like I said, I didn't grow up in a sports family and such, but in the past year, since the 2022 World Cup is when I've, like, gotten really into watching soccer and watch it every weekend.

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Um, but before that, like, before I, like, uh, picked, like, oh, a team I'm gonna follow, et cetera, uh, it was always just like, "Well, who's the underdog?" Like, I remember watching the 2020, 2022 World Cup.

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It's like everyone's talking about Morocco because they are, like, the first African nation to, like, get that far in the cup, and it's, and they're doing so well and overperforming, et cetera.

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And like, I think that's where kind of your broad appeal then is, right?

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Because, like, your average sports fan who's not overly invested in any specific team or narrative is almost always gonna cert- Like, I mean, it's more fun to support the underdog than to support, you know, the, the team that always wins, right?

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Like, do you agree? Yeah. I've always been that way, and I, I've met people in college. That was, like, the first time that, like,

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I, I roomed with, like, a Boston fan, and it was like they were on, like, the hottest run ever. It was like, you know, Patriots are winning, Red Sox are winning, and it's, like, just nonstop winning, winning, winning.

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I'm like, "Doesn't this get boring for you?" Yeah. [laughs] I'm like, like, "Let's root for, like, a team that, you know, is kind of like the underdog."

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So, um, I've kind of always had that spirit in me, and I think it, it probably just comes from my personal experience, but I think it is kind of an innate human thing to root for the underdog, David versus Goliath and stuff like that.

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Yeah. Agreed. So, um, yeah. But this, this goes back... Sorry, this goes back I think, too, to the whole thing about, like, the origin story.

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It's like don't you wanna root for, like, the, the underdog, somebody who's l- 'Cause it's like you want to like, you want some adversity. You want some str- And life is about- Mm-hmm... a little struggle.

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You know, you don't want everything on a plate. You wanna, you wanna chew your food a little bit, right? Yeah. And I, I, I mean, in college I learned about the hero's journey, like Joseph Campbell's- Mm. Yeah...

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hero's journey. And that's kinda something I come back to from time to time, too, is, like, every big movie throughout history has been-That same cycle of, like, they've, they don't want...

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They refuse the call to action, and then it's like they go through all this adversity, and then they overcome something that no one ever thought they could. And, um, and then they're on top of the mountain at the end.

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And it's like people love that kind of form of storytelling, and I think like you said, it kind of goes beyond just regular sports fans.

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So I wanna go back to the audience bit, and I think that you said it's, like, mostly men over 35. Um, and okay, your main-- the main way you've grown your audience, right, is through organic search.

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Um, I don't know if you've run ads or anything else.

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So I guess first question, is like organic search SEO basically how you've brought everyone to your, to your website, and then people on your website sign up for your newsletter? Is that basically the flow?

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So the newsletter, surprisingly, has not really been built a ton through organic search.

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I've actually been running a lot of Facebook ads, um, over the past year to grow my newsletter audience, and that's why it kinda skews older because Facebook is that older audience.

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Yeah, that's kind of how I approached it is like SEO is not forever. Like we know, like it, that traffic might not last.

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Google can cut that off at any time, so I'm trying to focus on monetizing that but also converting that into an owned audience of my newsletter. Yeah, that makes sense.

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Um, so okay, before we get into the newsletter bit, um, I wanna talk about the different platforms you're on.

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So you started with the website, and I imagine you kinda just set up like a domain kinda blog thing back after you graduated college, and, and that was your start. Um, and then newsletter you said kinda 2019, 2020.

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And then you have the Twitter, which has about, like, 1,600 followers. Um, Instagram has, like, 400. And then the Facebook though has 15,000, which you were just talking about how you, you run Facebook ads and such.

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But yeah, Facebook to me, like, I haven't been on there since 2018, 2017. Um, I just, you know, stopped using it one day. But...

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And most people I talk to are like, "Oh, focus on Instagram or Twitter or TikTok or whatever." Yeah.

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But, um, I thought it was really interesting that it's like still-- Like, your posts get pretty good and, like, authentic engagement, whereas so much of Facebook is like an AI swamp of, like, AI commenters engaging with AI posters- Mm-hmm...

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et cetera. Um, so I guess I wanna talk about, uh, just what these different platforms do for you.

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And so I think you're on, yeah, you've got your website, newsletter, Instagram, Twitter, and Facebook, and that's everything you're on, right? Mm-hmm. Yeah. So I'm fully transparent. I'm pretty much a one-man band.

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I have freelance writers from time to time to help me out. Yeah. Um, I've had the fortune of having some good ones, um, that I've been able to lean on a little bit with some, um, some story assignments.

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But otherwise, it's basically me running the ship. Um, I'm the last person to touch every article, every newsletter that goes out, um, every social post.

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So I've kinda had to streamline the process the best way that I could. Yeah.

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So, you know, Facebook was something I ignored, like, like you said, um, for a long time, and I would just kind of post my links there to directly to stories.

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Um, Twitter, I tried so hard so many times for so many years, and people were telling me, like, "Write threads. Write threads." Yeah. "This and that."

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And it's like the only traction I've gotten on Twitter was through my personal account, and it's mainly just through sharing like updates on my business and like- Mm...

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how I'm building things and, uh- That's what I see from you...

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you know, stories have never-- Yeah, stories have never taken off, so I'm kinda just putting Twitter as like, okay, I'll mention people like to follow my updates on the business, and, um, I try not to be like a preachy type of like cringe Twitter account.

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So I just try to like be transparent about- Plenty of those already... mistakes I've made, I've made and... Yeah.

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So, um, Facebook is something over the past, like I would say year and a half, two years, that has really, um, been my only really social channel that's actually worked.

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Um, I get a lot of engagement there, like you said. Like, it's just amazing the reach you can get.

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I had a handful of stories that I constantly like recycle every six months, and they get like-- like one of them I think got like five or six million impressions just out of nowhere. Like, I posted it on a Friday.

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I checked on like Saturday afternoon or Saturday night, and it was like three or four million impressions, and it was just going crazy. Geez.

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So I don't know how that happened, but it's happened like multiple times now where it's like something- What was the story? Do you know what the story was?

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Um, it was Edgar Martinez, um, who was a Seattle Mariners player with a really inspiring story, and it was just kind of like I just basically pasted like a thousand-word article into Facebook with like an image.

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[laughs] And I make these like quote images in Canva. Yeah. And that's basically my style is like I'll just post like the long form story as a post and then maybe like link to the article in the comments.

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But basically the content is basically the same thing- Yeah... across all platforms.

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Um, so it just, it took off, and I've just kind of been doing that from now on of like every long form story I write, I try to make at least like two posts on Facebook and Instagram out of it.

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Um, I could definitely be doing better with social, but it's just a matter of like how much time I have. Yeah. Um, but yeah, Facebook is I think an untapped market nowadays.

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I think a lot of people overlook it, but it could be worth a test for any business. I mean, there's still, you know, a billion people on there or whatever.

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Um, uh, so speaking of time, and obviously, yeah, you-- this is-- you have a full-time job. I think you do have like some consultants, some consultancy work you do on the side, and you have this.

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Uh, how much or how much time do you spend on Joker Mag and, and the Underdog Newsletter all told every week? That's a great question.

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Um, it's typically like, I would say, an hour and a half, two hours before work in the morning, um, if it's not a day- Every workday... that I go to the gym in the... Yeah. If it's not a day that I go to the gym, like

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it'll be I get up like 6:30, 7:00. I'll work on it for like an hour, um, go to the gym, come back, start my day of, um, work. I work at a travel company as an SEO specialist. Um, I'm blessed to be fully remote, so- Mm.

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Yeah... that allows me a lot of freedom.

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Um, during lunch, I might have my computer with me, like just sitting out there, like either reading an article or like kind of like catching up with one of my writers or something like that.

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Um, and like you mentioned, I do some... freelance consulting as well. So, um, you know, I was never great at time management in like high school and stuff, but I think the college athletic background really did help me.

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Like, when you have a packed, packed schedule, like you're forced- Yeah... to make decisions of like what to prioritize.

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So, um, I've gotten a lot better, and I think that's where I'm kind of just doing as much as I possibly can to earn the revenue to put back into growing the business that I care most about, which is Joker Mag.

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I, I always ask people this question about quantifying how much time they spend on it per week, and nobody [laughs] really, nobody really has a good answer, which is fair. I don't think I would either.

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[laughs] But I wanna, I wanna stick on this for a second. So I- you said like let's say five days of work a week, um, at about an hour and a half before, so that's, uh, five, that's like seven and a half hours.

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Um, and then, you know, maybe the lunch, maybe it's like half an hour during lunch every day, so now we're at like 10 hours a week. And then, like, I don't know, like where do you think it...

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You don't have to put an exact number, but is it like more or less than 15 per on an average week hours you would say? I would say 10 to 15 max. Um- Yeah...

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like last Saturday I didn't have any plans, so I just, um, spent like four or five hours writing the newsletter 'cause I hadn't caught up on things. And, um,

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so sometimes there'll be a day like that, like a Saturday morning I'll get up early and just crank through the work that I have left.

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Um, but when I'm not working on it, like physically making progress on something, I'm constantly thinking about things like how to grow my audience or a, a better story to tell or a- Mm-hmm...

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you know, a better way to do things. I'm always like kind of thinking about my priorities and how to spend my time and really just blow this thing up.

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Like, I've been working on it, like you said, for I guess six and a half years now, since 2017.

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So, um, I'm really trying to stay patient, but I'm also trying to grow it as much as possible and turn it into a sustainable business.

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Um, I would say the biggest catalyst recently that happened was in October I got accepted into Mediavine, which is a high quality display ad network.

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Um, so I've been able to monetize the website a lot better than it was in the past just because they- How do you get accepted? What's the criteria for getting accepted? So you need to get to 50,000 sessions in a month.

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I think it was like 30 days. I don't know. Um, but to get there, it was just a lot of work with grinding out, you know, kind of these search-friendly articles that are gonna pick up a lot of traction in organic search.

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Um, I ran kinda some Facebook traffic ads too to like get me over the hump, 'cause I was like so close for so many months of like 48,000, 49,000. I'm like, "Okay.

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I'm just gonna push the pedal to the metal here on Facebook and just like gun it down, pass." Invest a little bit, and then you'll get the financial, like- Exactly...

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ongoing financial reward that you can then reinvest into more ad [laughs]. It's just a, a circle of ads. It's a con- it's a constant cycle. And like, I've never been great at like the, the numbers side as well- Yeah...

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like I said. But, um, I've gotten a lot better of like doing these things has made me so much better at like managing cash flow and like- Mm...

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knowing where to invest and when, and like how much cash do I have on hand to put into this and that, and how do I prioritize advertising versus content, 'cause content is the business.

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So, um, I'm still trying to figure that out and working things through. But, um, I think I have a much better process than I did a year ago today. Yeah.

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I mean, it, it, it goes back to that athlete mindset of just trying the thing and, you know, fall down, get back up, et cetera. Um, so, uh, one more thing about the, the Mediavine.

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I'm cur- you don't have to share like your exact revenue numbers. Um, if you're comfortable with it, that's great. But I'm, I am curious, like maybe like a unit, a unit cost or something like...

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I just wanna get some idea of like what that generates for you. Yeah. So RPM-wise, I'm seeing between 18 and $20 RPMs. Um- Which is like revenue per mil or more like a thousand?

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Revenue, yeah, revenue per thousand- Yeah... sessions I think that's based on. Um, so yeah, every, any given month I'm seeing between 35 and like 45,000 sessions and like 50K plus page views.

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Um, so whatever the math is on that. Yeah. Um, but in the past, my RPMs were brutal.

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Like, it was like $5 or less with like Google AdSense, and I tried all these other networks, and they slowed down my website, and like they weren't worth the money. So I kinda like stopped running ads for a while.

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But I've always heard about like Mediavine being like the gold standard, so, um, when I got accepted I was thrilled, and now I've been even more blown away by like the potential of it.

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So now I'm really focused on growing that traffic and growing that revenue, but also keeping in mind like that might not last forever, and I wanna own my audience on my- Yeah... newsletter. Um, but there's just...

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the challenge I- I would say for me is like monetization of the newsletter. Like, I'm kinda in that in between, like between 10 and 20,000 subscribers. I'm not large enough to get like big deals and- Yeah...

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I'm kinda like running like through, um, ad network, affiliate deals, um, direct deals when I have them. Um, but my goal is to eventually ramp up the monetization of the newsletter as well.

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So it sounds like you are spending money on the... like the main way you get newsletter subscribers is through ads. So every, you know, you've spent money on it, you haven't made money on it.

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So besides just like increasing service area for ads, do you have any other ideas of how to monet- or how you're gonna monetize it? Yeah. So I mentioned the book. I'm trying to toy with the idea of like my own products.

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Um, I have merch and I've, I've really haven't pushed it too hard this past month. I see you posting on Twitter. You like post pictures of people in it and stuff, and people...

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it seems like the people who buy it really resonate with your brand and, and with you, and so that seems like a positive thing, yeah. Yeah.

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It's, it's very positive, and I sell it like just at an enough of a margin to like cover the cost basically- Mm... and the shipping.

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Um, just because it's like people are going out of their way to buy like my brand and wear it around. Yeah. It's marketing for you. I look at it... Exactly.

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So I wanna, you know, get it as low of a cost as possible for my true fans. Um- Mm-hmm... but it hasn't like taken off as like a monetization source.

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It's more of like sporadic like-Someone that loves my newsletter will buy something if I mention it in the newsletter Yeah Um, but the book is something I'm really passionate about, and I think it's gonna be...

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It has the potential to be really cool. I don't even care if two people buy it. Like, I just want a physical copy of, like, all- It's like a bucket list thing... the best stories that I've written. Mm-hmm. Exactly.

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Just, like, something to have, like, to physically hold in my hands of, like, a culmination of all the work I've put in.

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Just for me it would be cool, and I'm gonna try to pre-sell it to my audience and just see how it performs, and then figure it out from there of, like, how to actually go about fulfilling everything.

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Like, I need to kinda... I was pro- I was honestly, like, up pretty late last night, like, thinking about all this [chuckles], like, sitting up in bed, like, how am I gonna actually approach- Been there...

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like, releasing a book? Yeah. Um, but the first draft is basically done, and I'm just kind of now trying- Wonderful... to figure out the next step. So if anyone listening to this has any tips, that would be amazing.

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[chuckles] Uh, besides, like, obviously, you know, a lifetime of read- of, like, following sports and six and a half years of working on this, how many... how, for how long have you been actively working on the book?

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Probably three or four months now since I decided, like, I'm gonna try this.

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Um- But it's a lot of it- And it's been a lot of, like- 'Cause writing you've already done and published on the website, in the newsletter, right?

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So a lot of the, a lot of the chapters are gonna be, like, repurposed versions of stories that I've already published, and then I've done three, I think four now, exclusive stories, so, um, just for the book only, and I just kinda wanna give that little...

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those little nuggets to, like, the true fans who are gonna buy things and...

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from me, um, because, you know, they're spending their hard-earned cash on something I've created, and, um, so just kind of a, a little thing for them of, you know, this is something you haven't read before. Yeah.

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Um, I wanna go back a little bit quickly to the content on the site and such, and working with other writers. You said before that, that you'd, uh, that you had worked with other writers.

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I listened to a bit of a podcast yesterday with a, uh, this guy Johnny Podcasts who- Yeah... on that he said he'd written for you, and it was... I like he...

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It sounded like it was a really positive experience for him, that he was, like, able to write about, uh, sports stories and you've got just another, you know, a stable of writers. I don't know.

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So I'm curious, um, about how long you've been working with other people on the content. Like, when did it stop being just you? Um,

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yeah, some more questions around that too, but when did you start working with other people? I think around...

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In the very beginning it was, like, friends from college that were, like, interested at, that I was doing something, so they were like, "Oh, I'll write for you," whatever, and I obviously didn't have anything to pay them, so it was all volunteer.

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Um- Yeah, well, you weren't making money yet either, right? Exactly. So it was just kind of, you know... I go back and I thank them, like, all the time.

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Like, some of their posts still get, still get views and stuff like that, so it's really cool. But, um, over the years I've gone through, like, many different writers.

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Um, it wasn't until probably 2020 or 2021 that I really consistently started working with people, um, and, like, having kind of a regular cadence of at least, like, one or two articles a month coming from a freelancer.

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Um, so I've had the privilege to work with a lot of really good writers, and the guy you mentioned, Johnny, um, is a really big, like, podcast producer down in Texas, and we came across each other's stuff.

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I used to listen to his podcast. Turns out he played college basketball, was really interested in the NBA.

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At the time, I wanted some more NBA content, so we kinda got connected, and that's usually how things work out is it's, like, organically, like, someone'll reach out to me or I'll reach out to them and say like, "Hey, are you interested?"

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Like, "I can pay you a flat rate-" Mm-hmm... "per article, and, you know, we'll go from there." So, um, yeah, it's been really great.

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I've found some really solid writers that are very in touch with the, the brand and, like, what we're trying to do and, um, really align with, like, the vision and the mission behind everything. Yeah. Um,

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two-part question. What's the biggest challenge about doing this and working with the o- these other writers and making sure their work is, like, the quality you want, et cetera?

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So what's the biggest challenge, and then what's most gratifying about working with other people in this capacity? To answer your second question first, the, the,

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the most gratifying thing is, like, offloading some work from myself. [chuckles] Yeah.

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'Cause like, man, it feels great when you just get, like, a whole, like, 1,200-word article sent to you on a platter, and it's like, man, like, this is... my work for the week is done.

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Like, I don't need to worry about the newsletter this Sunday.

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Um, but yeah, the biggest challenge, I think, is just, like, fi- like, aligning what I'm looking for with, like, what the writer sees, and I think I've done a much better job of, like,

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refining, like, that voice into fitting, like, our brand. Um, like I said, research is very important to us, and we wanna go the extra mile for our readers because, um, you know, we're the home of the underdog.

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We wanna tell the best possible underdog story about each person that we cover, and I think just kind of, like, iteration over time, like, the first article isn't always gonna be the best- Yeah...

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but like, the 10th, 15th, 20th time, it's gonna come out much better.

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So, um, yeah, I try to, I try to strike the balance of, like, not being too much of a pain to my writers, but also, like, making sure that everything aligns with, with what we're putting out to our readers.

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Yeah, which is hard. I feel like in my experience too, you, you, you gotta get really good at, at writing a, a brief that's, like, both short- Yeah...

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enough that they're actually gonna read it without their eyes glazing over, but also, like, that hits on all the points where it's like, "Here's what you need to do," and just setting the expectations around, like, oh, we'll do one round of edits or two ru- whatever it is.

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Mm-hmm. Setting expectations with the brief. Um, [clicks tongue] what was I gonna ask? Uh, yeah, how, how, how did you learn to, like, to do this, to manage other people, um, and lead people? Like, is this...

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I noticed, I think in your day job, you, you have some, like, a team you manage or something like that, or was this, like, a sports thing? I don't know. I, I, I'm curious how you...

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'cause it's a skill, you know, managing other people, like we were just saying, writing a good brief, whatever. How did you learn to manage other writers? It's kind of something that I've just, like, learned over time.

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I was not very good- Mm... in the beginning, and I won't say I'm the best now, but, um, just... it's just kind of balancing between, like, Joker Mag and then, like, my day job and consulting stuff.

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Like, I'm always outsourcing stuff to writers, and basically that's like, like you mentioned, that is a skill that I've kind of learned and developed.

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But pulling experience from my day job and translating it to Joker Mag- Mm... and vice versaHas been really beneficial because I'm, I am focused on a lot of the same things in everything that I'm doing.

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So I think it's kind of... I was talking to a friend the other day, like, it kind of is like a multiplier on, like, years of experience when you- Yeah... have multiple things going on at once.

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So, um, you know, I might have only been in SEO since twenty twenty, but in, in reality, I have much more experience than the average person who started at the same time that maybe just works, you know, at an agency or whatever.

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Like, I have a lot of different balls in the air, and I think it's really contributed- And you have skin in the game because this is your thing. Exactly. Yeah.

255
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So, like, when people ask me about a Google update, it's not like-- Like, I'm genuinely giving you my answer because I have a website that could be impacted by it. So

256
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yeah, I think that's, that's a big part of it too, is having skin in the game, but also just pulling from each experience I have and just getting that one percent better as much as possible.

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I would love if you have any advice to share first about SEO and then, and, like, just having a website with your content, uh, and then newsletters.

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So yeah, any advice about, like, having a, a website, SEO optimized website, whatever, as your, as the home of your content as a creator online?

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So like you mentioned in the beginning, SEO has kind of gotten a bad rap from people that don't understand the whole field and the whole industry of SEO. Um, I think a lot of people think that it's,

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it's about, like, misleading people or misleading search engines. But at the end of the day, it's just like what you said with your listeners. You wanna do people a service.

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Like, when they land on your website, you wanna give them exactly what they're looking for. So if I'm searching for, just an example for Joker Mag, like shortest NBA players or anything like that,

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you wanna go above and beyond to, like, answer that call. Like, if I rank number one, I should deserve to rank number one because my content is better than every other website that has written about this topic before.

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So I'm gonna go the extra mile with my research. I'm gonna answer every possible follow-up question you can have of, like, who is the shortest center of all time or whatever, like, with any sport.

264
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Um, and, like, drawing on comparisons, slicing the data up, like how many people currently are under six foot in the NBA, and like, what positions do they play?

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Um, so I think it's about, like, that- Find all the answers and give them to people And deliver them on, like, a platter for people. Mm-hmm. Make it easy for them to skim the page.

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Like, table of contents with jump links, I always recommend to everyone. Like, if it's longer than a thousand words and it's got multiple sections, let people jump to the answer that they want.

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Um, and it doesn't hurt for SEO either. But, um, I would say with anything, like, do your readers a service and make them enjoy the experience of reading your content.

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Been doing the newsletter now on and off for a little over four years. What have you learned there? What, what advice would you give to other newsletter creators?

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I've, I've come across a lot of different-- I think it depends on your business model, but I've come across a lot of different advice of, like, should you deliver the, the meat of the content in the newsletter, or should you link out and try to monetize that click?

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And in my experience, delivering everything in the newsletter itself leads to much more engagement, uh, a better reader experience, better reader retention because you're giving them what they came for.

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They did you a service essentially by, like, giving you their contact information, and you wanna treat that with the most respect you possibly can.

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Like, someone's allowing you the privilege of entering their email inbox, and that's, like, a coveted space for, like, work stuff and everything.

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Like, you wanna make sure you stay there, and you can show up there week after week or whatever your cadence is. Um, so give them the best possible experience. Treat them like VIPs because they are. Mm-hmm.

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They're your VIP readers. They're not just people that are gonna, like, occasionally retweet a tweet of yours. They're people that are gonna show up and read and support everything you have going on every single week.

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So, um, not, like, misleading people and not, like-- You want everything to be totally congruent, like your messaging from the very beginning. Like, if I'm running a Facebook ad,

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personally, my Facebook ad is like a piece of content. Mm-hmm. So it's like a long form story with a call to action. Like, if you want more stories like this, join my newsletter. They click the join the newsletter.

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The message is exactly the same. They enter the email. They get landed on a thank you message. They get my confirmation email.

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I deliver more content to them in my confirmation email of, like, here's a bonus story because you signed up. Um, and I'm just constantly, like, trying to make the experience as good as possible from beginning to end.

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Um, so yeah. I think, I think I rambled a little bit, but that's my- No, no. That's good. That's my advice. That's good stuff. Um, o- okay.

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In your, in your Numbers Guy journey, uh, have you set up, like, any interesting, um, like, segments or automations, uh, with the newsletter that, that you're willing to talk about? Yeah.

281
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So I don't have a ton set up right now. I think I'm leaving a lot of meat on the bone, but I think I am using it more than I, than I originally was.

282
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So, um, I have a welcome automation where it's they get my first welcome email, which I said is, like, a confirmation, like, thanks for joining.

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Here's a bonus story for you, and it's like a thousand-word story with a little sign-off.

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Um, twenty-four hours later, I have an automation set up to go with my, I call it, like, my second welcome email, like a greatest hits edition.

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So it's got all, like, the original sections that I used to have of, like, top stories, so it's kind of like aggregating some of my best stuff and highest performing stories in one place.

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So it's just kind of like, here's the type of stories you can expect to get on this newsletter and, um, stuff like that, and then, like, kind of introducing, like, the extra innings section- Mm-hmm...

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to make sure people always scroll to the bottom. Um, I'm curious. Those greatest hits ones, uh, do they-- do people click on those?

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Like, when you send those out, are people actually like-- Is the click rate higher than your average email, say?

289
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So it's only when people join the newsletter, they get it at, like, twenty-four hours after the welcome email. But it does get a lot more engagement than I expected. Um- Mm-hmm...

290
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originally, I thought, like, it might come off as, like, too many emails in, like, two days or whatever.

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But I've set it up to where, like, Beehiiv lets you do a time delay, so I make sure that it never gets sent out on the same day as my regular newsletter, which is Sunday.

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So if someone joins on, like, Saturday, they get my newsletter on that Sunday, and then maybe not till Monday or Tuesday, they get myGreatest hits. But it does get a good amount of engagement.

293
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I have a couple polls in there too, and they're constantly getting new poll responses too. Nice. Um, one question that actually has been on my mind for a while, why is it called Joker Mag? That's a great question.

294
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Um, I have a section on my About page, um, that just kind of like... It's, it's-- Joker is like my family's bulldog. Ah, boo.

295
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And they-- Like, he was named by the person that we got him from because he had like a black eye- Mm-hmm... like, reminiscent of the Joker from the Batman movies. Um- Hence the logo as well. Hence the logo, exactly.

296
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So he's my mascot, and I just-- To be totally honest with you, in the very beginning, I didn't know what I was doing.

297
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I was trying to find a domain that was available, and I was like, just blended like two things I thought were cool. Um, but the kind of the story that I tell people is like, he has overcome adversity.

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He's had like all these different surgeries, and now he's like a peppy little bulldog, um, getting into his older years now. But, um, he's kind of our mascot and kind of like the symbol of the underdog. Okay.

299
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Question about-- one more question about monetization, then maybe we'll, we'll look into some future-facing stuff. Uh, so I know it's like deeply a passion project for you.

300
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I think you, you shared that like, I mean, the f- your favorite thing is when these people reach out to you and are like, "This was such a meaningful story to me."

301
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You know, it goes back to that's why you do this in the first place, because you read stories like this that are meaningful to you. So it's like, I think that's really nice.

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It's like this really nice, earnest, passion-driven thing, and that's why you, you're still doing it six and a half years later. Um, but eventually money has to come in for you to, you know, keep doing it.

303
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And so we talked a little bit about the ads. Um, I know you have kind of a virtual tip jar set up. I'm always curious if people, uh, engage with that. Um, what other... Is there any other monetization that I'm missing?

304
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And then do you have any, um, like kind of short to mid-term monetization plans in the works besides the book? Yeah. So I've been running a lot of ads through the Beehiiv ad network.

305
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Um, it's been an awesome tool to have, um, at my disposal to fill up any inventory that I have open.

306
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Um, I've done a lot of like direct stuff where not just cross promotions, but like flat rate sponsorships where a brand will pay or another newsletter will pay to get in front of my audience.

307
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Um, and my goal in the short term is to bring up the newsletter monetization to in line with the website monetization.

308
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Um, so that I think is a very realistic goal given the size and the growth trajectory that I'm on right now.

309
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Um, but right now I'm pretty much running, I guess, at break even, if you look at it that way, of like investing the- Besides your time... ad revenue. Exactly, besides my time.

310
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So r- investing the ad revenue into the Facebook ads to grow and then some content.

311
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I guess content kind of makes it go a little bit over, but, um, I'm much better off than I was, I would say, a year ago today in terms of revenue.

312
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Um, but I think newsletters in general, like I think the whole monetization gap between websites and newsletters, like newsletters still have a ways to go to catch up, and I think Beehiiv is kind of at the forefront of that, so that's why I'm really excited to be on the platform.

313
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Um, but I think, yeah, I'm really optimistic about like newsletter monetization going forward in general. Yeah. Uh, I agree. Um, okay.

314
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So you told me that your kind of short-term goals, I think for the end of this year, are to grow the newsletter to fifty thousand engaged subscribers and the site to- Mm-hmm... a hundred thousand monthly page views.

315
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So the newsletter one, that's like a two and a half times growth, whereas the site one is like a, a two times growth. Um,

316
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you know, pretty like those are good reach goals, but I think it's gonna be tough to, to reach them. Yeah. How do you, how do you plan to achieve those?

317
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You can break it down like newsletter first, then website if it's different. But yeah, how, how do you plan to two and a half times your newsletter subscribers this year and two times your page views on your website?

318
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So basically earning more revenue to reinvest in growth.

319
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Um, I wanna double what I'm spending on Facebook ads to grow, um, and still stay at least at break even, um, and find more ways, more levers to monetize my audience.

320
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Um, I think the book will be a big telling thing for me, um, because if I can sell a physical product that people want, I can sell digital products that people want, maybe exclusive insights, maybe a premium newsletter.

321
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Um, I'm not closing off the idea of that. But, um, I think like more, like I wanna be more in control of my revenue by like selling direct to my audience.

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So I just think I need to iterate and figure out things that are gonna work that people actually want. Um, and people have been very supportive of my sponsors, so I'm not against the ad-based model either.

323
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Um, but I think just I need to reach that critical mass point where like the, the website, once it got to fifty thousand, it unlocked a huge, you know, increase in revenue and like I was making a bigger multiple on like every reader that comes to my site.

324
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So I think it's just a matter of like reaching that critical mass of like, say, fifty thousand subscribers or twenty-five thousand subscribers, whatever it may be, like to kind of unlock that potential.

325
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Whereas like right now I'm kind of- And then there's like the word of mouth. Exactly.

326
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Like right now I'm kind of like fighting for like scraps in terms of like my newsletter monetization compared to my website, but I think I'm confident that like once I get to a certain point audience-wise and engagement-wise, it'll kind of take care of itself.

327
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What's-- what do you think is the single biggest obstacle standing in, standing between you and like, not even just these short-term goals, but like long-term?

328
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I know you have ambitious goals of like make this a media, a r- like a full-on media company, and this is your full-time job. You've got a team of writers. You're on all the platform, et cetera.

329
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Um, what is the, one of the biggest things standing between you and like your more long-term ambitious goals with this? I think time. I think- [chuckles]...

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I need to, I need to unlock the time to like grow this, and I think I've found a better system to streamline production of content and growth- Mm-hmm... and stuff like that.

331
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But like realistically, the more time I could focus on this and like hyper laser in on exactly what I'm trying to accomplish, I thinkJust having the time to, like, sit back and look at it from a high-level perspective, um, and like figure out the next step.

332
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I think I'm on the right path, and I think it's just about executing day after day, and it might not be like the sexiest approach, but it's what's been working for me, so I'm gonna stay on that path.

333
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But also dedicating time to just like thinking about my business, I think- Mm-hmm... and getting out of the, the day-to-day of like- Underrated how important that is. Yeah.

334
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And I think that is important because it, it's like something that keeps me up at night sometimes of like I need to think about my business, but I haven't had time all day to do it. So, um,

335
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I think that is a, that is a big part of it for me is just like having a more strategic...

336
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Not that I'm not strategic right now, but like having that extra time to like breathe and be more strategic with like where I wanna take this three to five-year plan going forward. Yeah.

337
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I think it's funny what you say about like, you know, the staying up at night worrying about like not, you know, taking the ti- I, I feel like I will often have that too where I'm like, you know, spending like two hours trying to fall asleep thinking about like X thing- Yeah...

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I need to do, et cetera. But then it's like hard to find the time in your day to actually sit down and like do that kind of thinking and write it down. It's... I never really thought about that before.

339
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Um, anyways, a couple more questions. W- we've been doing this for six and a half, almost seven years. What is the biggest mistake or regret, um, running this in those just almost seven years? Spreading myself too thin.

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I think I split my focus far too much, and I think even today, like I'm kind of guilty of that as well of like trying to take too many things on my plate, like in terms of, um...

341
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Like in the very beginning I was like, "Okay, I have this website. I know I want this to be like my forever thing, but like I need to make other money online."

342
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So I tried like-- I tested the waters with Facebook ads for like drop shipping products and like all this like ClickFunnel stuff in the beginning when that was going on, and it's like I've kind of bought into like...

343
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In the beginning I, I was like guilty of just like buying into like the hot, new, shiny object instead of just like zeroing in on like what I really wanna do long term.

344
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So, um, I think a lot of people still are guilty of that, and I think I see a lot on Twitter and stuff, like where someone will brand themselves as like this person and then a month later they'll be someone else.

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Like, they'll go from like SEO to like email marketing, and then all of a sudden they're doing like Facebook ads, and it's like... I think just narrowing my focus on like, okay, SEO and newsletter- Commit... that's it.

346
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Yeah.

347
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And just fully be dedicated to that and just the more you can zero in on that one thing or one or, one or two things, the better you'll get, instead of just spreading yourself across five or 10 different things and just trying to make a little bit of progress.

348
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Yeah. Which again is why you're, you know, you're active on Facebook as well, but not that you don't need to be on all the other social platforms 'cause then that'll just make everything worse. Um,

349
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okay, what's your favorite piece that you've written, favorite piece of content you've ever put out under the JokerManq project? So I would say my most recent story.

350
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One of my most recent stories that I'm really proud of is, um, Quantez Stigers is a guy who never played college football. His father passed away in the beginning of his college career, and, um, he left college.

351
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He was working for DoorDash and all this stuff, and then eventually came back to, um, football through this obscure indoor football league that came about.

352
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And, um, his mother actually like secretly signed him up for it and didn't even tell him about it until the day before the tryouts. And now he just got drafted by the New York Jets- Oh, that's so sick...

353
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and it's like two, three years later. So just an amazing story, and like it was something I came across before kind of the whole news cycle hit it.

354
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Um, it was in February that I published it, and then of course when the NFL Draft came around in April, it was like the hot news story on like the big time publications. But, um- Mm...

355
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I think I pride myself in like finding those like hidden gem stories and talking about them maybe if not before others, because it's so competitive right now. Like, everyone's on top of these things.

356
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But, um, talking about it more in depth and like uncovering those like little nuggets of information that are gonna make that story 1% better than other people that have told the same story.

357
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What you were talking about reminded me of the-- another story of yours that I read yesterday. Um, I forget the guy's name. He was like the GM for the Philly- Yeah, Howie Roseman? Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah.

358
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And I think it, it reminded me of you a lot where it's like, I mean, you, you actually played sports, but in this one it's like he never played the sports. He just like, as a kid he just wanted to be the GM.

359
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Um, and I feel like this, like obviously sports has your entire life been so important to you. Um, and I think like this is your route. Like, this is your Roseman thing, right?

360
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Like, you don't necessarily wanna be a GM, but you wanna be like, you wanna work- Yeah... in sports media, and like this is your way.

361
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And like no matter what, like you're gonna overcome whatever it is, like time and like, you know, laying every brick and brick and brick until you've got like, you know, the 50,000 newsletter subscribers this year, et cetera.

362
00:53:35.748 --> 00:53:46.448
Um, I don't know. Yeah. Does... Is there like... I guess my question, is there like... Is it Roseman or is there some other figure that like is your personal like underdog hero?

363
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'Cause there's so many, like hundreds that you've gone through. Like, do you have a, a personal like favorite story that just resonates the most with you? I would say

364
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there's a guy I wrote about in my book, and I think it's gonna be like a book exclusive, but I would say he

365
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without a doubt has like the best underdog story I've ever encountered, and it's gonna be like the first chapter of my book. Um, but I read- Nice... his.

366
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He, like he wrote a book about his life story, like not a very well-known book, not a very well-known name, but like his story just like was absolutely incredible.

367
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So like long story short, hopefully I get everything right, but just kind of a summary of like he was born in Brooklyn. His mother was severely addicted to drugs. He didn't have a father.

368
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Um, and he was kind of like the caretaker. He had like a bunch of siblings, and he was the old- the oldest of them.

369
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And his mother would go out and like be up to no good, and he would kind of have to be like the father figure for his siblings.

370
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And in the meantime, like he found an escape through football and-Just like became a great player, but like he wasn't even allowed to join the football team in the beginning because his mother and all his responsibilities at home were so much, like he couldn't even make the time for

371
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organized sports. And eventually, like through like great coaches that were looking out for him, he made his way onto playing college football. Even during then, like his mother passed away, his, his stepdad passed away.

372
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Like he encountered so much adversity and still made it to the NFL, and like he was from a small school, and just everything was completely stacked against him.

373
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And like anytime I think about like making an excuse for myself or,

374
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um, you know, finding a reason not to do something, it's like you think of a guy like that, and it's like he had every excuse to not make his dream come true, and he still did. Yeah. And he made it to the highest level.

375
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He, um, I think he was the first person to return a punt for a touchdown in the entire history of the Tampa Bay Buccaneers in the NFL. Um, and now, like his family's taken care of. He's taking care of all his siblings.

376
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He's done everything he possibly could, could accomplish in his life and, you know, he's living a happy life now in retirement. But it's like

377
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stuff like that, it just really hits you because, like I said, it is like people have this like extra level of motivation or whatever it is innately in them to overcome whatever is thrown their way.

378
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And I think that's, to me, like that's the most inspiring thing of like seeing other people overcome things, and it makes, kind of makes like your problems look a little bit smaller, a little bit more surmountable- Yeah...

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um, in your own life. So that's what I love most, and I think recently that's probably the mo- the best story that I've, that I've covered. That's a good one.

380
00:56:33.176 --> 00:56:43.496
Um, I, I think too that I feel like we're, you know, we're all, we're all underdogs in this capitalist society, you know, [chuckles] struggling to, to monetize our newsletters [laughs] etc.

381
00:56:43.826 --> 00:56:52.636
[laughs] Is, is what I take away from that. Uh, so starting to monetize our newsletters and retire our families. Um- [laughs] Anyways, I, I think, I think that about covers it.

382
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Is there anything else we haven't talked about that you wanna get into before we do some closing things? Um, no. I think the biggest thing that I...

383
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Like, the biggest message of mine on, on Twitter I hope that comes across to people is like I don't have everything figured out. I'm just learning day to day, and I think never take anyone's opinion too seriously.

384
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Like just because they have a blue check mark or whatever it is, or they have five hundred thousand followers, like it doesn't mean their opinion is right, and it doesn't mean their opinion is right for you specifically.

385
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Um, I never would've even considered trying Facebook for my newsletter if I listened to everyone else that said Facebook was dead or long form, people don't like long form stories in an email, like send them a link instead.

386
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Like my newsletter wouldn't be where it is today, so. Um, and not to say that it's like a lights out amazing newsletter, but it's getting better each week.

387
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And, um, I think just like following your own path is, is the biggest message I wanna hammer home. Yeah. But actually following it every day step by step. Um- Mm-hmm.

388
00:57:52.656 --> 00:58:06.256
Okay, where should people find you or your newsletter? Um, jokermag.com. Uh, there's a sign-up box there. I also just set up my custom web domain. You don't have to plug that though. It's, uh, newsletter.jokermag.com.

389
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Uh, but everything's under the Joker Mag brand. You can sign up for the newsletter, um, and just read our articles if you want to.

390
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I appreciate any support or any advice or any feedback you have, um, for any of your listeners. Sick. Well, hit them up people. Uh, this has been the Creator Spotlight podcast. I'm your host, Francis Ziering.

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My guest today was Tyler O'Shea, the man behind Joker Mag. Uh, thank you, Tyler, for joining me. Thank you listener for sticking around.

392
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And if you enjoyed this episode, it would mean a lot if you rated us on Spotify or Apple Podcast. I'll see you next week.

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