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Welcome back to the Creator Spotlight podcast. This is our twelfth episode, and today's guest is Kate Samuelson. She and her business partner, Georgia Vice, created the newsletter Cheapskate London five years ago.

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Today, they have over eighteen thousand subscribers. The newsletter goes out once a week and features two free events happening around London for every day of the coming week.

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As always, thank you for listening and enjoy.

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[upbeat music] Okay, so I've been doing my research, uh, read a bunch of back issues, read about you, et cetera, but I'd love to hear in your words, who is Kate Samuelson and what is Cheapskate London?

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I mean, a great first question. So I'm Kate, but I also like to say that I'm the Kate in Cheapskate.

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[chuckles] I am a UK-based journalist and also the co-founder of Cheapskate London, which is a free weekly email newsletter that curates the very best free events happening in London each week.

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And that can be anything from film screenings to plays to comedy nights to quirky one-off events like a food giveaway.

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And I launched Cheapskate, uh, almost exactly five years ago with my school friend Georgia, who's a graphic designer. Yeah. Um, I was curious about how you and Georgia split the work.

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I-- 'cause I noticed, like, you seem to be the public-facing figurehead. Like, I-- it's, it's your email and the Twitter bio.

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Um, I noticed that, you know, when you, you guys won an award a few years ago, it was you who won the award. Um, but my impression is that you guys split the duties pretty well. So yeah, just what, what is the,

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the demarcation there? Uh, so we founded Cheapskate together, and we're actually really old school friends. We've known each other since we were eleven.

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So it's really nice all these years later to be running a business together. I do all the kind of partnership stuff, outreach, monetization, also all the copy writing, um,

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uh, kind of the day-to-day things like that that go in the newsletter, uh, liaising with different PRs. And then Georgia does everything visual. So she does, uh, the look and feel of the newsletter.

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She designs it and has come up with that whole brand identity.

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She does things like our decks and media kits, and, uh, she also does a few smaller things like liaising with competition winners and some PR outreach as well. And generally, um, we split things.

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I, I have a two-thirds stake in the business, and she has one-third stake, but we're, you know, very much partners in every way. We talk about all big decisions.

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We speak about-- our WhatsApp is full of kind of social plans mixed with Cheapskate. It's actually quite hard sometimes [chuckles] to differentiate between the two.

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Uh, but yeah, we work really well together, and we've been doing it together the whole time. Okay. So you gu- you guys split it up. She does the design, um, a bit of a mix of everything, two-thirds. Um, that's all good.

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I, I'm also curious, like, who else helps? Because I found-- I saw a post from a couple years ago after...

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It was, like, on your Instagram after you'd gone on BBC to talk about the newsletter or something like that, and you'd tagged your now husband, and, like, I couldn't tell if it was jokingly or not, recommend- [chuckles]...

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or noted him as the social media manager. And I, I imagine there was, like, some truth, some joke in there by the tone.

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[chuckles] Um, but my-- and I, I know he's a journalist too, so I'm, I'm sure, like, maybe there's some sometimes help, but, like, less about him in particular, more besides you and Georgia, who are the other collaborators, if there are any?

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What do they do? How do other people help you?

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Y- that's a very insightful thing to have picked up on because I would say the, the only proper other collaborator is my partner, Tom, who we joke is our unpaid intern because he, he actually does a lot for the newsletter.

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He proofreads it, um, every- Mm-hmm.... normally every Sunday, and he's, um, he's also a journalist, but he's an incredible writer and editor, so it's helpful to just have his pair of eyes on it before it goes out.

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I think it's always really important just to have a second, and if possible, a third pair of eyes, um, before you send something because he'll often find typos and, and small, um, things that need to change like that.

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Yeah. Um, so yeah, he, he works really hard on it and doesn't really get any credit, but he's kind of, like, the unofficial third member of the team. Mm-hmm.

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Apart from the three of us, though, uh, it's just, it's just us that work on it. Oh, wow. Nice.

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I mean, I guess you guys have it pretty covered with the copy and the design, which the design, by the way, is, like, is really good, and I, I couldn't find...

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I mean, you switched to Beehiiv, like, in December, and so I could, I could see the archive on there, but I could only find one older issue from, like, four years ago or something, um, on your LinkedIn.

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And the design-- I bring it up because the design was basically the same and everything about, like, it hasn't really changed very much. Um, a- am I correct that, like, you, you haven't really added or taken away much?

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It's been this, like, two free events of e- every weekday, like maybe a little bit of intro.

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I think you've added, like, kind of this affiliate link section and a little bit, but, like, the format and even the look has been pretty consistent for five years, yeah?

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Yeah, which is kind of surprising, I think, because when you set out and do something, you obviously expect to have many iterations.

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And as you mentioned, we have tweaked a lot over the years but, but not kind of in a major way.

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So the, the main format, which is featuring two free events for every day of the week and then just two for the weekend and having a competition somewhere in the middle is sort of what we started with.

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Uh, but we did actually, as you mentioned, introduce this editor's letter at the top because we realized that people really like, uh, hearing from me and Georgia and, uh, when we share kind of personal stuff about us and what we got up to on the weekend.

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It felt like it really helps us build a relationship with our readers, and it's actually been a really important section that I didn't even think of including when we first started out.Yeah.

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Bring a little personal touch to it.

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Um, speaking of your readers, who-- So I, I understand that, like, your audience is probably largely, you know, people with an interest in free events in London, so that could be students, people who just don't have much money to spend or don't wanna spend much money.

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Um, but, uh, yeah, how would you define who your reader is at a high level? So we call our readers Londoners and, um, ugh, what do we call- Not cheapskates.

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[chuckles] We call our readers Londoners and London lovers because there are a lot of people who, I mean, there's still a small, uh, proportion, but there are still readers who don't live in London but still like to kind of have a feel of what's going on in the city or might visit London often, so like to know what's going on for that reason.

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And even though obviously the newsletter's all about free events, I would say our, our readers aren't necessarily people on incredibly low incomes.

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Certainly a lot are, and we get a lot of messages from readers saying how useful it is for them to be able to still go out and live life to the full.

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Uh, but we also know that a lot of our readers are just people that like going out and doing things, and they're culturally curious people who like to immerse themselves in, um, events and new experiences and just wanna have a kind of sense of all the exciting things that are going on in London.

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And the reason that I decided to actually create, um, Cheapskate in the first place, the kind of inspiration for that came from me just searching for free things to do in London and not finding that information readily accessible anywhere, and that's kind of where it all, where it sprung from and where the idea iterated.

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But actually, since then, we've realized that we appeal to a huge range of people who are just wanting to know what's happening. Mm-hmm. Yeah. Okay, there's a lot, lot in there I wanna get back to in a little bit.

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But first, uh, so that's like the high level of your, of your reader. How about, like, on an individual level? Have you, have, like, strangers ever, like, stopped you in the street or something?

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Or have you, I don't know, hosted events? Like who... Have you met some of these people in real life, like, who you didn't know previously, and what was, what was that like? It's quite funny actually when that happens.

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It doesn't happen a huge amount, but it has a couple of times over the year, uh, or over the years, I should say.

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Uh, most recently, I was actually at work, um, having lunch with a, a colleague who I hadn't met before, who's a freelancer, uh, just talking about, you know, what we get up to, and I mentioned that I have this side hustle, and he was really shocked and said that he'd actually been reading it for a few years and, you know, couldn't believe I was Kate from Cheapskate.

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[chuckles] So that was quite funny. And my mom's had a, a funny incident recently.

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She, she's a teacher and, um, was talking to some of the other teachers in the classroom, and one mentioned reading something on Cheapskate. So it's, it's nice when it goes full circle like that.

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It feels, it feels like sometimes when you send out the email, it goes out to all these thousands of people, but you actually don't know them.

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I mean, obviously, a huge proportion of my friends and family subscribe, but I mean outside of that. So it is quite nice when you kind of meet a reader in the wild, [chuckles] in a way. Yeah.

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But yeah, in terms of who our readers really are, it's a huge mixture, but I'd say our, um, most typical reader is a female, that's about seventy percent of our readers, um, and in their twenties.

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We know that Cheapskate would appeal hugely to students, but from what we've seen, I wouldn't even say that a huge proportion of our audience are students.

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They're, they're people kind of first or second job in London, um, working and in their twenties. But we also do get messages from, from people who are in their fifties, sixties.

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So I think we do have quite a wide readership, and that's something that I'm really mindful of when I pick the events as well. I try and make sure that there's something there that will appeal to everyone. Mm-hmm.

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Actually, yeah, with, with picking the events, I know that you, like in, in some other interview, you said you, you know, you, you kind of do your vigilance. You go out and search. You have these, like, places you track.

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You get some PR pitches as well. Uh, I'd love to hear how you choose an event other than, like, this is something that seems cool, it's free, and it's in London.

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Like, what's-- How do, how do you balance, like, what really makes it in and why? Yeah.

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It's become, it's become a lot easier, I'd say, the longer that we've been doing Cheapskate for, because at the beginning, I didn't have the contacts. I was doing a lot of my own research.

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And now, because we've been going for five years, we fortunately do get a lot of event organizers and, and PRs reaching out to, to say, "Hey, I'm organizing this cool event."

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So I have a, a calendar, so just a Google Calendar, and throughout the week, as soon as these emails come in or we're also subscribed to lots of mailing lists of all the major, uh, galleries and museums and event spaces in London.

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As soon as I see free things happening, I'll drop them into the calendar so that when I come to write the newsletter, often a lot of great events are in there already.

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And then it will be a matter of thinking about things like having a good mix of events. You know, I don't wanna have, uh, twelve events that are exhibitions. Yeah.

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I wanna have a bit of cinema, a bit of comedy, uh, a bit of theater, a quirky exhibition, maybe a, a late at a museum, that kind of thing, making sure that there's a, a real balance.

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I also try and make sure that there's a spread across, uh, the city as well. Mm-hmm. 'Cause we've had feedback before saying, you know, "I'm in South London. You feature so many North London events," that kind of thing.

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So now I try and be really mindful of, of having them spread across, um, the whole of London and having a few in Central as well, with the idea being that most people can reach there. Mm-hmm.

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So yeah, these are the kind of things that go on in my head. Um, also often events, um, even though they're free events, they'll have kind of tickets- Ah.

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-that you have to book, and so I, I really don't want people on a Monday when they open Cheapskate to see an event they're interested in and go to book it, and then it's kind of sold out- That's okay.

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-or the equivalent of whatever that is for a free event.So I'll try and see how many tickets are left and gauge whether there'll still be tickets available by the time the newsletter goes out on Monday, and whether, um, you know, it's worth including an event that might only have a few tickets left and then readers will be disappointed.

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So a lot of that kind of thought goes into it. Mm-hmm.

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Um, sometimes we'll have good relationships with certain venues, and we like to prioritize those events as well, especially, uh, ones that are run by people from, uh, minority ethnic backgrounds or, um, there are some kind of LGBT events as well that we prioritize.

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We, again, try and really prioritize diversity in our newsletter as much as we can, and are just really wanting everyone who reads it to feel represented in some way, so that really goes into the choice as well. Yeah.

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Complicated algebra, so many, so many things.

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[laughs] I, I, I'm curious, like, uh, if you have this calendar, how many, like, I don't know, just for example, like on one d- let's say on, like this Thursday or whatever, how many events did you have, like, booked aside where you're like, "Okay, I've got this many to choose from to pick the two"?

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Yeah. It's a good question. I'd say probably on a given day we probably have around 10 events- Mm... to choose from.

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Uh, maybe, maybe eight to 10, and given that we're only picking two for each day of the week and then just two for the weekend, sometimes making that decision can be really- [laughs]...

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difficult, so I wanna include them all. But I'm also very, um, big on looking at the analytics- Mm... and that's something that Beehive has been amazing for. Like what people- Like always... are clicking usually?

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Exactly, so I'll always be going in and seeing which events are most popular and then using that to inform the events that we- Mm... that we feature. What have you...

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What's like recently, what kind of thing has been m- more popular?

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Last week's, or actually I should say this week's, um, event that was most popular didn't surprise me, but I think I was still slightly surprised to see how popular it was.

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I mean, I thought it would be one of the most clicked on, but it, it was, you know, maybe it got three times- Five maybe... as many clicks- Wow...

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as any other event, and that was a cinema in, um, or kind of a, arts, arts community center in East London has launched this mystery cinema night where you turn up on a Wednesday and you don't know what film you're seeing.

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Oh, I love it. And they kind of drop clues throughout the day on their socials, and it's really fun, really quirky, but there was a lot of interest in that event in particular. Yeah.

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Um, one more question about the events. I, I, I'm sure you don't go to too many of them. I mean, you've got a full-time job and, and you're doing this and, you know, you've got a life.

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Um, what's, what was your favorite of these events that you've curated that you've been to recently? Ooh, that's such a good question. I think I went to something good recently. Let me just have a think.

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Actually too, like on that, how often are you go- again, like, like I said, you're, you've, you've got a full life yourself, so I don't know how often are you going to one of the events that you've curated?

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Not as often- [laughs]... as I would like to go. Yeah.

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And I, I also do find that something quite difficult about doing what I do, doing what I do because I'm promoting events often before they've happened, and so I don't know- Mm...

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what they're gonna be like a lot of the time. For, for one-off events, obviously, if it's a kind of exhibition or something, then it will have been, we tend to promote it on the day that it opens.

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But, um, sometimes we'll promote things that have been running for a while. Yeah. So I do often worry about sending people to something that ends up not being great, and we have had a couple of- That's terrible.

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I've been to terrible artists. [laughs] We've had, yeah, we've had a couple of instances where people have emailed, and actually they've ne- they've actually, I, I kind of respect the tone.

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It has never been accusatory, but it's been, you know, "Just as an FYI, I went to this event." I, we had one recently where someone said they went to an event and it, it wasn't very good.

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Um, it was, it was free to get in, but then you had to pay for a lot of stuff- Mm... when you were there and it ran late. I think it was a burlesque night.

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And, um- Well, that, that's kind of amazing though that your readers are, like giving you this kind of feedback and, like care about it and also, like being res- respectful.

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It's like, 'cause you're doing a community service, right? So like, they understand that and wanna contribute.

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Definitely, and I really appreciate, uh, having that feedback because then it makes me think, "Okay, well, I'm not gonna feature an event run by that company again in the future." Blacklisted.

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So we kind of, yeah, exactly, we need people to let us know what they were like, and actually that's something I, I kind of wish I was able to do more.

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I'd love to have someone at the events we feature to kind of take a, take a feedback form from our readers there. I mean, obviously it's not really possible, um, at this stage, but I would, I would love to know more.

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And we actually do have a, a kind of line at the bottom of the newsletter that says something about us, you know, the events being external to Cheapskate- Mm, mm... and we're just kind of the messenger.

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Um, so you know, f- but we don't wanna be held responsible for things like the event time changing or an event being canceled because we obviously just can't have oversight of everything- [laughs] Yeah...

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free happening in London all week. Yeah, there's not so much you can do. Um, okay, I wanna go to your career for a bit 'cause you've, you're like a career-long journalist. You've studied journalism in school.

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You got a master's in magazine, um, journalism.

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But before we, like, go all the way back there, you, the, the entire time you've been doing Cheapskate, you've had a full-time job, except I think there was one stint where you were work- working just part-time. Um,

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how do you balance it? What is the balance there? Like, how much time are you spending on Cheapskate per week on top of your full-time job? It can be really difficult, and

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it can also vary depending on what we've got going on.

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I would say I probably spend half a, half a working day a week on Cheapskate at the moment, but because-Because often that's kind of split up into different, you know, sending an email here, an email there, and then the writing, it's hard to, to really quantify it.

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I-- yeah, I've always done Cheapskate as a side hustle, so I don't know what it would be like to have more time [chuckles] to spend on it.

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I do know that I'm very grateful to have my business partner, Georgia, so that we can work on it together. And we also have flexibility. You know, if, if

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one of us can't work on the newsletter for whatever reason, we can either work ahead together or we can just take a break if we want to. Uh, we try not to, because I think it's really important to be consistent.

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But, um, earlier, we've had one week off this year, which was in April when I went on my honeymoon, and it just- Congrats. Thank you. It just wasn't feasible for me to write it when I was away.

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So we do have that flexibility.

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And I also feel like, um, I'm in a fortunate position because I, uh, work from home two or three days a week, and that means that I'm saving time on commuting to an office, and I, I try and use that time a bit, like first thing in the morning to respond to some emails.

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And I would also say, as I, as I said earlier, because we've been going for a while, actually writing the newsletter and doing the outreach takes a much shorter time than it did at the beginning. Mm.

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And- The muscle memory... having so many events to choose from, yeah, exactly. It just, it just makes it so much more straightforward when I come to write the newsletter, which is usually on a Saturday morning. Yeah.

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Um, okay, going all the way back, like I said, you did-- you have a master's degree in magazine journalism, which as somebody who like, you know, writes feature length things and I just love magazines, et cetera, um, th-this will, this will connect to, you know, back to the newsletter eventually.

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Tell me, tell me, like, about what that was and, like, what you learned from that that, like, brought you down this path of, you know, of journalism and, like, particularly newsletters now both in your side hustle and your, you know, professional career.

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What did you learn there that kind of... What was that like? It sounds fun. Yeah, I absolutely loved it. I always knew that I wanted to be a journalist, I think from when I was maybe sixteen, seventeen.

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And then when I went and did my undergraduate, I was really involved in student journalism. Again, I just loved it. I was on the student paper, and I also edited the student magazine.

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And so I think that was a real flavor of, of being in the world of journalism, and I, I tended to do more of the feature side of things than news, although I did actually start out as a graduate trainee reporter on a major newspaper here in the UK.

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And so that was a really interesting experience. But from then on, I've, I've tended to do more of the feature side of things. It's funny because I, I did my master's, uh, I think it was around ten years ago- Mm-hmm...

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and I don't remember newsletters being discussed at all- No, they weren't really... in my course. Yeah.

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Even though email obviously has been around for a long time now, it was not- I, well, I feel like, I feel like newsletters were like this like '90s, early 2000s thing, and then it was blogs.

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And like when you were getting your master's, it was the blog era, and like the newsletter era was about to start again, and now it's like, it's all the same thing, but now it's just newsletters again, right? Exactly.

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Yeah. I think when I was doing my master's, we were talking a lot about social media. That was kind of new, the way that journalists were using it, which is funny to think about now. It makes me feel quite old.

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[chuckles] But, um, yeah, so, so email was, was a kind of side thing and, and I think it wasn't actually till I joined The Week magazine a few years ago, um, as an editor for the digital team, that I actually began to see newsletters as being a specialism within journalism that I, that I was perfect for.

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And that was even when I, I was still working on Cheapskate in, in my spare time at that point, and I still didn't really think of newsletters as being an area of journalism that I should throw myself into.

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But The Week has a lot of amazing, uh, newsletters, which I got involved in, and I ended up becoming their first newsletter editor, and I think that was a really big step.

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I was worried at first, is this gonna pigeonhole me?

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[chuckles] But I actually think now that promotion was the best thing that ever happened to me because I went on, like all the jobs I've had since then have been newsletter-focused- Mm...

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and it's such a growth area in journalism at the moment, despite the fact that email has been around for such a long time. Yeah.

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Well, you, you specialize, and then it's also like, I mean, when, when I took this job too, I, I, that was something I wondered about, like, will this be a positive or a negative to like be just like a newsletter specialist?

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But I think it's definitely a positive, like not only because, you know, it's a great time for newsletters, but there's so much else involved in it of like, you know, it's like you're learning like very specific, like how do you reach this audience?

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How do you learn, like if they're liking it? Et cetera. It, it, it's a healthy thing to do. Um, but going back, so you were the first newsletter editor at The Week. Um, tell me more, like what did that...

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What does that mean? What is that role? So I was involved in the launch of a few of their culture newsletters, which were food and drink and travel. And I also, um,

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uh, I'm trying to remember now because it was a few years ago, but I also, um, edited the morning briefing newsletter as well, which was their, and still is, the flagship newsletter.

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And I think I learned a lot then about, as you said, appealing to different audiences and being able to talk directly to readers and how important that can be for a brand and a brand's identity.

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I think that what I love so much about newsletters is that you're just not at the whim of social media. Mm.

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You, you don't have to worry about an algorithm changing and your content not getting shown to people, because if you have people's email addresses, you're in, and you have that relationship.

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Yeah, well, that's the problem in the first place, though, right? [chuckles] Is you have to get them first.Yeah, it's hard to get them, but once you get- got those emails then you, you're there, and I think

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it's obviously really important to build that relationship. I think it's easier to do- Mm...

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knowing that you have time to build it, and you're not worrying about the algorithm changing, and, you know, losing, losing oversight of your audience- Yeah...

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in a second, which is what has happened to so many brands and so many social media platforms. So many URLs dashed on the rocks of the pivot to video.

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Um, so did you get that newsletter editor role in part because you'd already been working on Cheapskate for a couple years? I think that that did play, play a part in it. Um, yeah, I think that probably did help.

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And- and in your interest at least, right? Yeah, exactly. I think, um, the role came up, and my, uh, manager at the time I think th- thought that it would be a good step for me, and I do...

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It's funny now to think about how unsure I was, but it, looking back, it definitely was the right decision, and that actually, um, took me to my next role, which was editing a, a newsletter first media publication, which I think- Editor-in-chief, right?

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Yeah, that's right, and I don't think I would've had that responsibility, or I don't think I would've been in the running for that responsibility had I not been a newsletter editor already. Mm-hmm.

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So that's The Know we're talking about, right? Um, and one thing I thought was interesting was that was the first startup you'd worked at. Um, what did that teach you?

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Like, not only, like, this being a newsletter-dedicated thing, uh, organization, but also it being, like, maybe a different atmosphere in being, like, a s- a newer startup.

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Um, what did you learn from that experience that you, like, take away now? Yeah, I learnt so much from it. It was a really amazing experience.

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I learnt what it's like to be in a team of four people, five people, where you, you're everything. You're not only editing and writing, but you're HR, you're IT support. You, you play all these different roles.

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Um, and so that was really interesting for me because before that I'd only really worked for big companies, so that contrast was a, a great learning experience, and I learnt a lot about the newsletter world and how there are lots of emerging newsletter startups, and I think being one of them was really exciting, and being able to immerse myself within that was, was great, and I learnt a lot.

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I learnt a lot about things like Beehiiv, for example. Mm. I, I hadn't heard of it until I joined The Know, and, um, the founder had heard of Beehiiv, and I worked on that. What is the thing...

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What, what do you value the most that you took away from that?

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Maybe, like, about, like, two things: one about producing and writing a newsletter, and then two about, like, just working, given it was a new work environment. Two, two learnings. I'm trying to think.

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They're quite, like, um, intertwined in my head. Hmm. Well, it could be one. Um, so I think a big learning for me was about prioritization. Hmm.

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And when you're a, when you're a really small team, you can't take on everything, and you really have to think about what is actually a priority for the company, and that's something that I've definitely taken through to Cheapskate now.

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Hmm. 'Cause, you know, for example, before six months ago, we were spending quite a lot of time on our Instagram, but it wasn't really doing anything for us. We weren't getting great engagement.

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I don't think the crossover between our audience in, our readers in the newsletter and our, our Instagram- Hmm... audience was very similar. It wasn't growing our newsletter subscriber base.

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It was kind of just there for show, and I think The Know really taught me about if something's not really doing it for you, you don't have time. Focus on the things that are actually gonna reap rewards for you.

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So we've really stopped doing any Instagramming recently, and I, I can't say that I've missed it. I don't think it's impacted the brand and the newsletter at all. Hmm.

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So that was a, that was a huge learning to just really see what is actually gonna be important and grow your business and everything else put to the side for now. Yeah, no.

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I, I talked to somebody, uh, like a month or two ago, this guy Andrew Huang, who is a big YouTuber. He has, like, 2.3 million YouTube followers.

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He's been doing it for, like, two decades, but I mean, since YouTube started. Um, and I asked him something about that, like, 'cause he's mostly just on YouTube.

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He has some presence on the other platforms, but, like, clearly doesn't prioritize it, and he was like [laughs] I don't know.

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It was the way he said just that, like, he realized one day that he just didn't have to do those other things, and it was like- [laughs]... this huge weight lifted and, like, this revelatory thing.

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Um, 'cause I mean, I f- you know, with, with Creator Spotlight too, I do the same thing. Like, I'm trying to be on all these platforms, and it's really hard and exhausting.

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And, like, you're like, sometimes you feel like you're shouting into the dark, but with Instagram, though, you do have almost 9,000 followers there. Um, so s- something maybe was working there.

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But was it just that, like, like you said, the audiences maybe weren't the same, and any new people weren't coming to the newsletter? Yeah, we used to post on Instagram all the time most days. Mm.

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And so we built a lot of our audience through doing that, but I noticed over the past year our engagement really dropped, and I think that's something that's quite common among, quote-unquote, "micro-influencers".

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[laughs] Yeah. And I think- Not doing enough reels... it's really hard when you're not spending tons of money on Meta- Mm...

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to get that engagement, and for us it's not, it's not worth putting our money into growing our Instagram. Um, you know, we don't have tons of money.

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We're a tiny team of two people, but any money that we do have to spend on growth I'd rather spend on getting newsletter subscribers- Mm... because that's what's more important to us.

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And then if people wanna go and follow our Instagram, that's fair enough.

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I'm not gonna, you know, deter anyone from doing it, but it's just-Currently not a good use of our time, and if we were to expand the team later, then that's something that we'd look at growing again. Mm-hmm.

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Um, okay, so now let's take a little stats detour, uh, newsletter numbers. I'm curious how many subscribers you have, um, the open rate and the click rate. So we currently have 18,718 active subscribers. Oh, wow.

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We have... Well, our open rate is currently-- I'm just opening my, um, Beehiiv. Like, I can just read you our open rates before. It was fifty-six point seven- Hmm...

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fifty-two point five, forty-five point one, forty-nine point six, fifty-three point nine. So we were consistently hitting over fifty. Yeah.

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Our open rate has been consistently above fifty percent for a long time, and our click-through rate is really high. It's sixteen point three percent- Wow...

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but that's actually down from what it's been [chuckles] in the last four weeks. We often, um, get around twenty percent click-through, which my understanding is that's really high.

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Well, that's quite good, yeah, 'cause I think industry average is more between one and two percent. But, like, obviously what you do is you- your service is providing links for people to click on, so it's like,

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you know, quite... people expect to click a link.

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I wonder, um, this is something I was talking to somebody I interviewed last week, who, this woman, Haya Kaylani, who has a-- she curates, like, video essays, five video essays a week.

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We were talking about, like, different ways, different, like, metrics she could track or segments.

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And with you, I wonder if it's, like, subscribers who click every week, like, or, like, the click rate of s- of individual subscribers and, like, how many people are, like, clicking to one event per month, five events per month.

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That could be something interesting to look at- Hmm... um, which I guess my- my- Yeah, that does sound- Yeah. My-... really interesting.

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I was just gonna ask, like, is there anything else you track besides those three...? Like, is-- are there any special segments you have like that or anything?

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So we're not great [laughs] at doing all the technical stuff, but we do have a segment. Because we, um, we've been making more money recently- Mm-hmm... we've been investing- Nice...

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some money in paid social and, um, that has been bringing in newsletter subscribers, which I can talk about- Mm-hmm... a bit more in a, in a sec if you're interested.

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Uh, but we have a segment to track how m- like the, the kind of, um, the stats on the audience who we've brought in through paid social. Because obviously if we're spending on gaining people but then

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sixty percent of them are unsubscribing within a month, then it's not a good use of money. Yeah. So we've been tracking it that way. But luckily the unsubscribe rate is pretty low.

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I think it's around three to four percent. Oh. So we're happy with that. Yeah, that's good.

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Um, yeah, so I w- I would like to talk a- about growth, but, um, so my understanding is kind of the, the chapters just, just by looking at the publicly available information, like the, the interviews you've, you've done and such.

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The fir- so by August twenty twenty, I read about fifteen months after launch, you had four thousand subscribers.

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Um, and then by January twenty twenty-three, so twenty nine months after hitting four thousand, you were at around ten thousand.

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Um, and then today, another sixteen months later, you've almost doubled that ten thousand again to, you know, let's round up to nineteen thousand. So is there like...

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I mean, that's just an arbitrary, like when you did interviews, what I'm looking at. Yeah. But, um- That's helpful for me to hear though- Yeah... as a reminder. I was like, "Oh- Well, if it's like a-...

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[laughs] that's good to know"... if it's... Are there, are those like chapters of your growth, would you say?

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'Cause I think mo- most importantly is like that first zero to four thousand was rather quick, um, a faster pace than those other two, you know, chapters I included.

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So I guess walk me through of like from the first stage of growth maybe to that four thousand and then to the once you hit ten thousand and then from ten thousand to now. So until we...

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Well, actually, to be honest, until we hit ten thousand, we didn't do any paid social. Oh. So all that growth, or if we did, I can't even remember it because it was so- I did-... long ago...

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well, I know that in, in those interviews you said that was actually something you often said that you've never, you'd never done any paid growth at all. Yeah.

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We just, we just didn't, we didn't have regular money coming through. We did have partnerships. We were just putting everything back into the company, and we were being very conservative with, with spending. Mm-hmm.

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And so we, we did grow to ten thousand pretty much by word of mouth. So that was our readers telling other people about it.

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It was also, um, through we've, we've been doing a consistent weekly competition since we launched. Mm-hmm. And uh, a way that you enter the competition is by referring people. So we were doing that.

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Um, since we moved to Beehiiv, actually it's much easier for us [chuckles] to actually track that that person has made a referral. Uh, so yeah, we grew through that.

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And we also were lucky to have quite a bit of media coverage, especially over the pandemic when we pivoted to virtual events.

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So we had some great coverage around that time in places like The Metro and on BBC London Radio.

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So that really helped us grow, but it was slower than the growth that we've seen in the last six months, where we've grown probably by six thousand, and that's because we have been able to invest money in paid social.

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And we have a, a great ad that Georgia, my co-founder, made. And by great, [laughs] I mean- Well, it's working... she won't mind me saying this. Well, it's, it's working, but it's pretty basic.

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It's, it's, it's scrappy, and you can tell- Mm-hmm... that it's made by people that are not social media experts. By cheapskates. Yeah, exactly.

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And I, I think, I think that's actually kind of done the trick for us because we have a CPA of seventeen P, which is super low. It's quite good. And, um,

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and we've been also-- it's not good practice again, but we've been running the same ad since October, and it does...

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You know, the CPA is always seventeen P, and it does really well for us, which again is not the learning. You're meant to be mixing that up, but- Wow... for us it's been- It's working...

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it's been working and, you know, if it ain't broke-Plus neither of us really have time, 'cause we both work full-time jobs. Mm-hmm.

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The idea of creating another ad right now doesn't feel like a priority when this one is doing pretty well.

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Well, also, neither of you, I'm g- I'm just guessing neither of you had had experience running paid social ads before, right? No, we hadn't, so that- that's been a big learning for us. What was...

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Yeah, how did you, how did you figure that out? Like, I mean, it's, [laughs] it's clearly working for you- [laughs]... but, like, uh, at the start, how, how did you... Why did...

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I mean, one, why did you decide to do that b- other than just, like, was it just like, "It's time to do this, we wanna grow"?

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And then, like, what was it when you were, like, going through, like, the fog of paid social war at the beginning? So what made us decide to do it was that we won a big prize at the end- Mm...

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of 2022, I wanna say, [laughs] uh, which was called the Georgina Henry Prize for Digital Innovation, and that was a prize organized by, uh, Women in Journalism, and as part of that prize, we won 4,000 pounds.

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So we thought, "Okay, now, now is our time [laughs] to actually spend a bit of money," and I put a call out for someone who was an SEO expert- Mm. Um, or sorry, not an SEO expert- Paid search...

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a digital marketing expert, and, uh, we found a woman who ran- who created, set up some ads for us. Um, but we didn't really at that point spend much money. It kind of came later.

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We, we still weren't that confident to put that much behind it. So almost a year after that, we started actually throwing ourselves into paid marketing, and that's something- Mm...

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a project that, that Georgia, my co-founder, has kind of led on, but, um, but yeah. This was in fall of last year, by the way, you said? Yeah. This was, this was around the time that we moved...

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It must have been just before we moved to Beehive or around the same time. Oh, like November. Yeah. Mm-hmm. Exactly. And we thought, "Okay, well, let's, let's get that going again." Mm-hmm.

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Um, one more thing I wanna talk about with growth.

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So it sounds like that's been the big driver recently, but then before, it was word of mouth, which this is a very, like, word of mouth friendly thing that you do, right?

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Um, but I wanna talk more about the little giveaway competition things.

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I, I think you, in your little, like, recap of 2023 email, I think you said you did, like, 42 of them last year, which would be not quite every week, but most weeks.

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Um, and it seems like it's a, like, you know, 'cause there's all these referral programs people do, Beehive allows you to set up where it's like, you know, uh, for 10 you get a tote bag or whatever, this kind of thing, but yours is so much more, like, scrappy and also, like, instant and desirable and, like, time-limited, and, like, it- I- it's kind of, it's pretty clever I think, 'cause it's like, of course I want a box of donuts or a bottle of gin, or I- these are just two of the- [laughs]...

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prizes I know you've given out. Um, so yeah, it, it seems really cool. Tell me more about your referral program giveaway combo. Yeah.

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So it's one of those things when we launched five years ago, I thought, "We're never gonna be able to do a competition every edition," and somehow it's happened.

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[laughs] And again, it's become much easier, because the longer we've been going for, the more variety of brands we've worked with, so the more people get in touch with us.

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It's actually more people getting in touch with us to run competitions now than us reaching out. Mm.

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But because we're on so many mailing lists as well, when we hear about something coming up, I'll often send a reply saying, "This sounds great. Can we have two tickets to give away in Cheapskate?"

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And that's often how they come about too.

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Um, at the moment we're, we're not charging brands for, um, the competitions, but I think that that's something I should think about doing, because obviously it is a great slot in the newsletter and it's going out to almost 20,000 people.

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But the way it works is, um, our readers enter the competition by referring someone to Cheapskate, and so after a few days- Do you get, like, an extra entry, uh, for every referral or just one?

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It's just one, but that's actually a really good idea. Maybe for, for the more, um, attractive competitions, we could, we could do that.

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We also had feedback recently from someone saying, "I've referred everyone I know to Cheapskate, but I still want to enter the competition."

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[laughs] So I'm not really sure how to, um, you know, how to please everyone with this. But Beehive does make it super easy to track whether someone's made a successful referral.

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So a few days after the competition goes live, we'll download our, our recent referral, um, like, the spreadsheet and check and then pick someone at random from there, and they'll win- Oh...

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and often there'll be several winners. But it's just a nice way of rewarding our readers. I think it's, it gives people a reason to open the newsletter. Yeah.

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It's nice because obviously then we're getting in touch with individuals to let them know they've won, and I think it, it helps remind readers that, you know, Cheapskate's being run by real people, and then it's also obviously a great way to, to build our list because of the referrals that our readers make.

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Mm-hmm. Yeah. A reminder too that Cheapskate's being run by real people who, if I'm correct, don't take any money still from it, right? Yeah. [laughs] So, okay, so- That's right... I wanna talk about monetization.

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So my understanding is you have affiliate links, which I think that's what the, um, And For Dessert section is at the end. You have, like, like, a dozen, maybe not as many as a dozen, but- Yeah.

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Not all the links there are- Okay... affiliate links.

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So the And For, the And For Dessert section which comes at the bottom of the newsletter, but is often our most clicked-on section despite coming at the end, that, um, is where we'll share affiliate links, but we'll also intersperse that with, "This restaurant's doing 50% off from Monday to Wednesday," or, "This brand's doing a cool sale," that kind of thing that might interest our readers but isn't technically a free event, so can't really go higher up in the newsletter.

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And we also might use that section to do some cross-promotion with a brand that we, you know, that might be a brand that's mentioned us to their audience, so we might wanna give them a shout-out at the bottom there.

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Yeah. But yeah, affiliate links-Tend to go in that section, and that's how... Or actually it's not really affiliate links, it's more, um, pay-per-click ads- Hmm...

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go in the bottom, and that's how we make the majority of our money at the moment. Okay.

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Um, and then the other ways that you get money, I think are, you have some like buy us a digital cup of tea CTAs, and then you have a premium subscription option, and then you run some direct ads.

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Like I've see- we've, we've both run the rundown AI ads, uh [laughs] in our newsletters. [laughs] Um, but is it...

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So it's, it's those, those Beehiiv ads, um, the buy us a cup of tea CTAs, and the premium subscription options. Is there anything else? Yeah. We also do partnerships with brands. Hmm.

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So for example, we've had, uh, a few this year, and we've got one coming up in two weeks with the Southbank Centre, which is a big, uh, cultural center here in London.

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So we're quite lucky to have worked with some really big brands that tend to be, uh, cultural spaces or event organizers, and, um, that, uh, partnership tends to look like a banner advert at the top of the newsletter that either the brand will design or we can design in-house, um, that will have a chat link.

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We'll also reference the event or, um, company or whatever the advert is, um, depicting in the editor's letter as well using the chat link again. Mm-hmm. And, um, that might also run across a couple of weeks.

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So that's another way that we make money as well. Yeah.

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Um, one way that maybe, sounds like you don't make money this way yet, but maybe you're curious to, I think, uh, is I'm more interested in this, this, this idea of like brand partnerships and like you were saying like maybe a brand is paying you to promote their event with tickets or something.

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But, uh, when I was researching you the other day too, I was thinking about like, what if there's like a, you know, just for example, like Spotify or something.

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Like Spotify wants to like throw this free concert to promote something, and they're like working with you, and you're like the main promotion, you know, the main promotional avenue, and it's like this big brand deal where they're like paying you guys however much money, and then you can reinvest that in these, et cetera, et cetera.

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I'm just kind of rambling, and I don't know exactly what, what that would be. But are these kind of like bespoke brand partnership free events, is that something you have on the horizon or are thinking about doing? Yeah.

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I, I would obviously not say no to Spotify- [laughs]... if they came knocking, [laughs] asking us to help them promote an event. Yeah, I think, I think that would be definitely an area that we could go into.

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I think at the moment, it's great that some big companies like Southbank Centre are taking a punt on a newsletter like Cheapskate, and I think they have every right to because we have such a targeted audience, and we do have a track record of getting people to events, but because we're not a traditional media brand- Hmm...

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often I think budget is, um, budget is kind of reserved for, for the old school newspapers and magazines. So I am so excited when someone does wanna promote something in Cheapskate, and it makes me feel,

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um, yeah, it makes me feel excited that people have an open mind and are willing to invest in new media.

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But I also know that it's a good idea for them too, because I'm confident that our readers will click on the link- Hmm... go to the event, give feedback if the brands want as well.

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I mean, Beehiiv is amazing for that with the polling function. Yeah. We've managed to get so much feedback on different things. We use it a lot, and again, I think that's something that old school media doesn't have.

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Yeah. Um, I guess the, the next question there then is like, okay, you've been doing this for five years. It's been a side hustle the whole time.

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Um, I know that you've said before, like a, a long-term ambition is like Cheapskate Manchester, Cheapskate Edinburgh, Cheapskate Berlin, New York, et cetera.

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Um, that sounds like it's still like a, a long-term faraway goal given that this is, you know, you're, you're still working full-time, both of you have full-time jobs.

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Uh, but my question is, what are your goals or ambitions for, let's say, for the end of this year, um, for the end of next year, uh, which would be twenty twenty-five, right?

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[laughs] And then for five years from now, so doubling where you are now. So for the end of this year, it's such a good question. [laughs] Probably should know the answer to this- [laughs]...

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but off the top of my head, I think something that we did, so we did our first ever double edition week last week- Bank holiday special... where we sent out a special... Exactly.

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We sent out a bank holiday special, which was very well received, and I think now that for various reasons we both have a bit more capacity, I think that's something that we wanna do throughout the year.

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We wanna do more doubling up, because more emails we send, the better relationship we build with our readers, and we only get money when we send out the newsletter as well.

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So there are lots of reasons why it's a good idea, but also ahead of bank holiday, ahead of summer holiday, we always get emails from people asking us for that specific information. So we're gonna provide it. So I think

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we'll do one for the late May bank holiday as well, the August bank holiday. I'd like to do a summer special. So I think we're gonna experiment more with sending additional email address- emails to our current list.

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Interesting. So that's the plan for this year. Mm-hmm. Yeah. Next year, [laughs] I have quite big plans. Hmm.

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I would really like to expand, not necessarily geographically, but I'd like to expand in terms of subject area.

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So something that I've really wanted to do for a while, but I just haven't had time, is to launch Cheapskate Parents because, I mean, that's a working title, but we get so many parents writing to us to say, "What can I do with my kids that's free?"And I think, again, having more targeted audience is not just attractive to possible partners, but also I think it, it could really help us kind of make a name for ourselves in that world, and I'd really...

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Yeah, I'd like to have a kind of Cheapskate spinoff that focuses on parents. I'd also like to do a specific food one as well- Yeah... Cheap Plate. So if anyone reading or listening- Good name...

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uh, is interested in sponsoring either of these editions, we're open to that. Love to discuss. But yeah, these are kind of ideas in the pipeline.

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We have a few other spinoffs too, and as you mentioned, we also would, would like to expand to different cities.

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We're actually in conversation with someone at the moment about possibly launching Cheapskate in a different city, but that's a very backburner conversation [chuckles] right now. Keep, keep it secret.

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Don't drop the city. Yeah.

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Um, so one thing on my mind as I was r- researching all this was, like, the problem of, like, it being free events, and, like, people having the expectation of not wanting to, to pay for stuff, et cetera.

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I don't think this is... this, like, you know, cuts off, like, any monetization opportunities, et cetera. But, like, eventually you can't just do this for the rest of your life, like, for free, right?

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Like, you're, you're putting a lot of work into... You've put so much work into this over the past five years.

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Um, do you, uh, do you have any worry about the fact that, like, because people have this expectation of it being a free event or a free thing, then it's harder to attract advertisers or sponsors?

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Um, I think, I mean, I think the answer is no, [chuckles] so I'm kind of answering- [laughs]... my own question, given, like, what I was saying about, like, a p- you know, like, that Spotify example.

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But, um, do you have any worries about attracting, like, longterm monetization with it being about e- everything free? Um, or do you have plans to, like, monetize more in ways you can sponsor stuff too?

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I did worry about this when we started off. Mm-hmm. But I don't anymore, because our audience is so incredibly engaged that- Yeah...

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we are doing really well from pay-per-click advertising, and from affiliate links, and recommending, and making recommendations through Boost and other platforms, and that is enough for us to...

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We could be taking a salary right now if we wanted to- Mm... uh, which is obviously amazing to have got to this point after four years of, of not being there. But now it's literally paying off, excuse the pun.

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[chuckles] Um, and so I feel like it's great that we can make this money without asking our readers for money, because obviously, you know, it wouldn't feel natural for our brand.

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[chuckles] We can never charge for cheap... Uh, for, we can never charge people to receive Cheapskate- No...

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because, yeah, it would be a complete contradiction, and we want everyone to have this information at, at, you know, the root of Cheapskate is to help people get the most out of London for free.

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And I want everyone, even if they're on a low income, even if they just lost their job, even if they're a student, I want them to feel like every night of the week they can go out and do something amazing.

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So we'll never charge to receive, uh, for people to receive that. But as long as we keep

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up the same engagement, I think that we can keep monetizing in the way that we have, and I think while some brands might be put off by the name Cheapskate, it hasn't really been many.

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A lot of brands get it, and get that Cheapskate is actually a positive thing- Mm... and it's not about people cutting corners. It's about people- It's about value. Yeah, exactly. About value.

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And I think, you know, the fact that we've had big brands already interested in working with us, I feel like the bigger our audience gets, the more that will happen.

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So I really actually don't worry about that in the long term. Okay, I wanna ask for a few pieces of advice. So one,

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you've been, I mean, not only with this, but now professionally, you've been doing, like, dedicated newsletter work for a few years now. Do you have any, like, very specific tactical advice for other newsletter creators?

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In, in any way. Mm-hmm. Just at your most, like, arcane, specific newsletter advice. I think it's all about the subject line. Mm. That's obvious, but- Okay.

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Yeah, wait, I, I, I'd love to hear you talk about, like, the art and science of the subject line. So I think short and snappy is always better than long-winded. Mm.

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And I think you don't always need to describe what the email contains. It's about giving people enough of a flavor to intrigue them. And I used to- What, what's the, what's the best one you've ever written? Sorry. Ooh,

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such a good question. I can't think off the top of my head, but with, with Cheapskate- This is too good... the way that we've...

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Yeah, the way that we've worked out the subject lines is we tend to now just pick out a couple of intriguing events that are happening, but we don't explain them. Mm. So might say something...

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There was one recently, um, that I found quite funny. It was, uh, oh yeah. [laughs] It was Birkenstocks, Yorkshire burritos, and a board game museum late. Sounds like a weird Saturday night.

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[chuckles] So the last one kind of explains it, true. Yeah. [chuckles] Birkenstocks, like, is that an event? Yeah.

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I mean, people, people love Birkenstocks, so that actually got a great open rate, and also Yorkshire burritos, I didn't, I didn't know what that was, but there was a, a Yorkshire burrito giveaway happening.

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Um, it's, you know, food, a new food brand. So- I've seen one TikTok... I think picking out... Yeah. [chuckles] Picking out quirky things like that does intrigue people, and so I think, I think that's better than saying,

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um, food giveaway, uh, shoes. Yeah. A shoe workshop. I think the more specific, the better. The punchier, the better as well, and I think sticking to 40 characters or less as well is the general rule. Yeah.

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Okay, tougher question. What has been your biggest failure, misstep, or regret running Cheapskate? I think not being brave enough to invest a bit in paid social from an earlier- Mm...

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point, because-It took a long time to get to 10K. I'm proud that we did it through word of mouth, but that took around four years, and we probably could have

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done it so much quicker if we'd spent a bit of money that we'd made rather than being so cautious with it. I think now, obviously, it's great to,

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to be able to spend that money knowing that we have regular money coming in, but I think I should've been a bit more of a risk-taker with it, and we would've grown a lot more quickly. Yeah. No, that's a good one.

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Um, how about any

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one, two, or three, any lessons you've learned, um, not necessarily just about newsletters, they could be, but, like, about life or, [laughs] you know, London or creativity, whatever it is, journalism, that you've brought back to your, to your main jobs.

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Um, any lessons you've learned by virtue of running Cheapskate for the past five years? I think I've mentioned this earlier, but people are really interested in the personal. So even though- Mm....

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Cheapskate is not at all like a Substack where I write about my life- Mm... and I'm quite a private person, so I don't really like putting personal details in it.

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If I do mention something, for example, I mentioned that I was getting married, I got so many nice emails from readers, but it did remind me that people do like knowing that there's a person there.

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And in my current job, I, I send out emails on behalf of a major brand. I, I'm still taking that with me by having, having a way, having a personal... Sorry.

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I'm taking that, uh, thought process with me by having a way that readers can provide feedback, and then I respond to it personally.

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And I think no matter how big the brand is, people like to know that that email is coming from someone. So I think making it as personal as you can and as, in a way that, you know, you're comfortable with.

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You don't necessarily have to reveal lots of personal details, but having, having, you know, an anecdote or a rec of something you did on the weekend every now and again, people really do like that. Yeah.

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I, this, I think that's one of the best advices, pieces of advice for, like, news- newsletters and just writing in general.

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Like, uh, when I was in college, I took this cultural anth- intro to cultural anthropology class my freshman year, and, like, one of the things that's always stuck with me was, like, the professor said, just, like, write the,

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write the specific and the reader will universalize it, and I think that's what that is too.

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It's like, I mean, with the newsletter, you're, you're really, like, you're writing to one person who's opening it in their inbox, even if there's, you know, 19,000. Um, that's good advice.

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Uh, I guess we're about done here, so, um, thank you, Kate, for joining us. Thank you, listener, for sticking around to the end. And where should people find you or the newsletter?

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So we're- You can subscribe to Cheapskate at www.cheapskatelondon.com. We're also on Instagram @cheapskate.london, but as I mentioned, we don't use it that often. And yeah. Oh, I'm also on Twitter @KateThomielson.

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