Nowadays, YouTube is really, really difficult. It's very hard to stand out. There's the creative mind, the more business mind. You're kind of one of those good-at-both people.
Whenever you give me a task, it has to be done amazingly. What's your strategy for retention in videos? If you just trust us, we will make you the best video. It will do the most views it can.
If you get in the way of the content strategy, you'll kill the video. People are not gonna be satisfied when they see that video. There are so many football creators out there.
Why were you sure, like, "Oh, this is the guy"? We work together so expertly well. He's incredible at what he does. He's amazing. I'm, I'm absolutely happy operating in the shadows.
Let's talk about subscribers for a second. Maybe, maybe two to three years, 10 million subs. Two, three years, 10 million. You heard, you heard it here first, folks.
[upbeat music] Welcome back to the Creator Spotlight podcast. Today's guest is Alex Emery.
He spent eight years working as a digital producer for Sky Sports, the British broadcasting outfit, before leaving two summers ago to found Click, an agency dedicated to growing creators and brands.
He and his agency are perhaps best known for growing football YouTuber, John Nellis, from 5,000 YouTube followers, uh, a year or two ago to now 1.7 million.
But first, you were at Sky for eight years, from since you were in university until, until you left. Why did you... Was it time to leave? Eight, I mean, I guess eight years is a long time, right? Yeah.
So I actually didn't even go to university. I was, uh... just left straight from, uh, sixth form college. I would've been, um, 18.
I'm not sure what that's called in the US, but straight into work as, uh, an apprentice at Sky Sports. So I kind of, uh, went right in at the deep end. Didn't really do the whole, like, going to university, having fun.
Smart. Just straight into work.
But it was, it was kind of doing exactly what I wanted to do, so I was, like, super, super excited to kinda get going and happy to kind of forego that kind of, like, gap year stage of the life and just get straight stuck into it, because I've always been, like, really, uh...
I just love hard work, essentially. Mm-hmm. Because it's in something I do.
The second you ask me to do any sort of, like, life admin, I cannot do it, but this kind of job that I've got, that I've carved out for myself, is just fun, right? Yeah. And every day it's- Allows you to never stop...
fun, so I get excited to go to work. Exactly, right? And I'm switched on all the time, and there's [laughs] downsides of course. But no, uh, yeah, I was at Sky for eight years. Loved it.
Uh, and kind of quite quickly transitioned into helping them, uh, with their YouTube channels. Yeah. And we, we kind of launched their YouTube channels.
Brought after two years, I was like- This was like, so this was like 2015, right, that you joined? Yes. Yeah.
Yeah, and then I think in, like, 2017, uh, I was kind of hired to be on this team of, like, six people to start YouTube for Sky Sports, and it was, like, this tiny little team, and we all had basically no idea what we were doing.
Mm-hmm. And all just blagging it on the job. We were...
We came from, like, the, a video background, but mainly doing kind of, like, uh, cut downs and highlights for the website, not, like, YouTube content as we know it today. Yeah. Not natives.
So yeah, we kind of, we kind of went in at the deep end and just learnt, and it was, it was a fantastic learning ground. Yeah.
And, um, yeah, I still work with a lot of the people that I started working with today, which is great. That makes sense. Uh, w- quick thing about, I guess, like, work culture in the UK. Mm-hmm.
So when I saw that you did the apprenticeship program, is that, like, is that like an internship? Mm. 'Cause I feel like I think of... when I think of apprenticeships I think of, like, crafts and trades, right?
Plumbers, electricians, roofers, glass blowing. Like, work with your hands- Yeah... type of stuff. But whereas, like, you know, something like going to be a producer at a broadcaster, that's like an internship.
Is that, is that just a thing in the UK? Uh, yeah. I'm not sure in terms of, like, the, the definition. Okay. Uh, we, we do have internships, but, um, yeah.
And for an apprenticeship for me was very much like, let's do the year where I'm just- Yeah... basically a hindrance to everyone. Yeah.
And I'm just gonna learn from everyone and just soak it all up, and, and you're gonna pay me a very nominal fee type of setup. Did you have video background before? I, I, I did, but I was, like, 17. Yeah.
So it was kind of just, like, home video shooting a bit of stuff and editing on PremPro really, really basically, and kind of everything I know today has been learnt from just teaching myself and- Yeah...
soaking up knowledge from people around me who are, who are very, very talented. And that's something I've always tried to do really, is, like, who's the smartest person in the room? Who's the best at Photoshop?
[laughs] Who's the best at editing? Yeah.
And just going to sit with them and learn, 'cause ultimately y- if you do that, you can kind of steal a little bit from everyone, and you can kind of become this, like, jack of all trades really. Mm-hmm.
Where you have a little bit of knowledge in everything, and then you go away and you practice and you learn and you teach yourself, and you, you look to improve all the time, and ultimately that's how you get to kind of further yourself and develop, right?
Yeah. So, uh, like, three years or so into your time at Sky, um, uh, uh, I was looking at the Click website where you've got this great timeline. It says that in 2018- Mm...
June of 2018 you, uh, took on a leading role at Sky Sports Football YouTube, and it reached one million subscribers in less than a year, having taken three years to reach 250,000 before you were in that role.
Was there somebody in a leading role before there? Like, what did you, what did you come in and change? Why... Like, how were you able to accelerate it and, like, you know, triple that growth?
Yeah, so ba- basically there was, there was no one really kind of taking real ownership, uh, for that channel, and as someone who's always loved football, it was very much like, "Please give me the reins for this."
But I was really young. Ten years a bit. I was... I'm trying to think dates. What, what date? I can't remember the dates properly. 2018. You're probably- 2018... 20, aren't you? Yeah.
I'm tw- I'm 29, so now, say, six years back, so I would've been 23. Okay. I'm young. I'm, I'm, I'm probably on paper not ready to kind of take that, take on that sort of role.
Uh, but kind of took on the responsibility, and whenever you kind of give me a task and you, you say it's mine, it has to be done amazingly. Yeah. Because it's like this, I'm putting my name to this. Yeah.
I really wanna be able to s- like, shout from the rooftops and say, like, "This was my thing and look how it did." Um, so yeah. But I kind of... B- because I was YouTube
centric as a 23-year-old and had always loved and always love YouTube, I kind of came at it with that standpoint.Whereas I think previously it was almost being treated a bit more like a, like a clips channel- Yeah...
in a traditional, like, old school media. So I'd always, in that year, essentially take clips from a range of Sky Sports content and work out how to package them with a fantastic title, fantastic thumbnail- Mm...
and make what would be a show which you otherwise would never consume because it's an hour long, turn into maybe, like, four to five really con- like digestible bite-sized clips that are packaged in a way that you have to click them, you have to watch them.
And, um, I think taking that approach basically just utilized what Sky Sports was doing. Like, ultimately,
their Sky Sports is this huge corporation where there's a ton of people making great content, but I was just a case of like, "Okay, let's utilize this. Let's take- Yeah...
that clip from that show and let's turn it into this piece of content and let's cut down this and turn it into this." So I was essentially,
yeah, packaging stuff, uh, really well, getting it turned out fast, and, uh, yeah, just utilizing the amazing talent that Sky has. 'Cause ultimately you have talent like Gary Neville, Roy Keane, they're huge names.
There's so much interest in what they have to say, so it's a case of if you can package it successfully, then you're onto a winner really. Yeah. There's no... You're not, you're not...
There's no need to, like, put lipstick on a pig. You're working with gold. Yeah. Um, okay. So- Exactly...
you left after eight years, and I understand basically this guy, John, who you knew in some capacity before, John Nellis, he called you up. Um, he'd been starting to, starting to do YouTube.
He had like 5,000 subscribers and he's like, "Hey, you know this kind of work. Like, do you know anybody who'd be willing to come and, and work with me and try to grow?" And you're like, "You know what?
Like, fuck it, I will." [laughs] Um, and, and then- Yeah... you quit your job. Uh, why, why? Why was it the right time to quit? Why leave? Uh, few, few reasons, really. So, like, there was a restructure at Sky- Mm-hmm...
and I... Our team that did, did the YouTube stuff was... And they might say it, we had some, some real, real success, and it was a case of like, "Okay, do that, but do that across Twitter, Facebook-" Uh-huh...
uh, Instagram, all that." Kind of u- use that knowledge and, and kind of take on these other platforms. But in doing so, we became quite stretched, and we had to cover multiple cores. Well, is it 'cause...
I mean, you're saying, like, the, the people above you didn't really understand these are different, different skills, different things- Yeah... completely. Yeah. And, uh, whilst
it was, okay, there's a lot of transferable skills, equally it's like I don't specifically want to be working on, like, Twitter and covering cricket, which I don't like.
So essentially what was my dream job quite quickly disappeared and turned into a different role. And I was very much of the mindset that, okay, I'm young. I was, what, 27? Mm-hmm.
And, okay, is there a better opportunity in, in life when you're in a position you don't really love your job anymore, and then an exciting opportunity presents itself and you back yourself?
It was just a g- the right kind of time. And, uh, yeah, with, with John, we, we'd kind of been doing a little bit on the side- Mm-hmm... outside of, uh, like working hours for each of us- Yeah...
and building up some revenue as like a side hustle. And I would always encourage people to do this because I think, like, it sounds...
If you just take the headline, like, "Quits his dream job and, and jumps in and does..." It's like, don't do that, please.
[laughs] Don't let me be the person to tell you to do that because being self-employed is incredibly difficult, and anyone who tells you otherwise is lying. Mm-hmm. Um, but you...
if you can build up some sort of, uh, kind of buffer so that you can... when you jump it's not like you're jumping from your dream job into the complete unknown, then you absolutely should do. And we, we got offered a,
a kind of a contract by a, a brand called Fancy Football Hub who make fancy- Oh, yeah, I know... football content, FPL, in the UK. Um, and they basically said, "Come and run our YouTube channel.
We'll give you X rate per video. We'll cut you in on the ad revenue." Um, and for John and myself, we, we're both incredibly motivated by like- Yeah... uh, equity and rev share models. Yeah.
Uh, we, we, we both like that. It's like, don't just pay me a flat fee because- Yeah... you're gonna see me check in and check out. Then you lose your incentive. And I just don't... I don't have that in me.
Like, I, I'm... If I put to my mind something, it needs to be really, really good. So if you tell me, "Okay, here's a stake in that, so w- when it succeeds you can win too," then you're going to get way more out of me.
And John's the ex- exact same. So we have, we have that kind of like real synergy in, in the way we operate. So that was at, at the tipping point where we, we, we could basically jump, and it was somewhat justifiable.
Yeah. Yeah. I was g- I was wondering, like, why you didn't, you know, go look for another broadcaster or, like, join another agency. Like, "Oh, I've got more to learn. I wanna learn from this person," et cetera. Yeah.
But, but you kind of answered it there. You kind of were chasing that, like...
I mean, I think that's, you know, the, uh, the beauty and the risk, the, the, the joy and the horror of, like, the creator economy as it were, right?
Where it's like you put your, your sail in the wind for, like, all risk but all upside, and you guys were like, "Well, we can blow our own wind and make that upside." Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. For sure.
And, like, working at Sky was incredible because it gave me like so many learnings that allows me to jump into making YouTube content- Mm-hmm... with all of that education.
And I mean, if I'd gone into being a creator at like 20, I would... maybe I'd be where I am now today, but who's to say? Yeah. Would've been painful I bet. Um, 'cause Sky taught me so much. Yeah, it would've been a...
yeah, it would've been a tougher journey. Well, okay, wait, wait. So, uh, about you being a creator 'cause, um, we'll get more into like, I guess the, like, relationship between you and John and other clients later.
But I did find that you had your own podcast called Travel Talks, um, from October 2020- Ah... until October 2021. Found it. Yeah, you did. I, I didn't li- I listened to like a few snippets, but you- [laughs]...
you did like 45 episodes. Um, have you done any other, like, Alex as creator type of things, or was this just like a COVID project and then you're like, "Ah, I don't have time for this"?
Like, yeah, what's the story there?Yes. So like I, um, I've always had kind of like a, a performing arts kind of background. Um, I do like the kind of like the limelight to an extent. Mm.
Uh, but no, that was kind of the real only time I've, I've made content. I did a little bit on YouTube- Mm...
uh, where I was, like, making really super niche content about the football club I supported, and I thought- Is that readers?... maybe this could be like a little thing I do. Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Um, so yeah, I, I, I did a bit around that, but it's difficult, right? Mm-hmm. And I think the, the true, the true
story is that when you, when you want to create content, it's easier to do that when you can kind of instruct someone with what's in my head. Yeah. So like there's, there's a few elements to it as well.
So let's say for example, you have like John, who's fantastic on camera. Mm-hmm. Like, really, really good. Big character. Charming. And then you have me who's like,
yeah, you have me who's like, meh, he's all right, whatever. [laughs] So you have those kind of like scales, and then you have me who's like really good off camera. So imagine if you roll reverse, right?
And you had like John was editing the videos and I was on camera. The, the results would not be anywhere near what they are. Yeah. The scale would be tipped the wrong way. But it's because John's... Oh, exactly.
The, the, 'cause John's so good on camera, and I'm, I'd like to think I'm very good off camera. You have this amalgamation where you have just essentially, to, to simplify it, the two best people for their roles, right?
Yeah. Because I think like people often like play down like, oh, like anyone can be a creator, but like let's imagine a TV presenter or whatever, like there are TV presenters who are better than other TV presenters.
Yeah. So John is essentially the best person for his job, and I'd back him to the hilt. Well, so the thing here is- Um, and-...
like my, my theory on the, on the creator economy, it's like the same with any creative industry, right?
And what you're, the example you, you're using for TV is like at the most basic level, there's like three types of people.
There's the creative mind, the more business mind, and then like the middle of the Venn diagram where some people are good at both. And like the way, the impression- Yeah...
I got from you when I was, you know, reading up, et cetera, is that like you, you're kind of one of those good at both people, where like you have the creative mind and you have the business mind.
Um, but like you, like less people have the business mind than have the creative mind, I think. Mm. Or less people like put effort into it or learn it or want to have it. Um, I think there's more of like a- Yeah...
a surplus of the creative types and like less people on the business side. Um, so yeah, I don't know, but, but yeah, you've, you've got both 'cause you've got the strategy, et cetera.
You also, it seems like, you know, just don't feel like the, the egotistical need for the limelight as much. Yeah. No, I, I'm, I, I'm, I'm absolutely happy operating in the kind of shadows. Mm-hmm.
I, I, I saw actually, do you know, I'm sure you know Colin and Samir, and I'm not gonna- Yeah, of course... assume you don't know Colin and Samir. [laughs] Yeah. [laughs] So I saw Samir once saying that like
people operate at different types of gratification. Mm. So like- Mm... but I've, I think I align with a lot of what Samir was saying when he says he loves and values the, uh, appreciation of people he respects. Yeah.
So for example, like I'm not at all bothered what like a random- You don't need the numbers... 10-year-old who watches one of my videos thinks of me.
But if like you've got like WillNE or like ChrisMD come to me and say like, "I think you're really good at what you do," I'm like, oh wow. That is like, that is worth a million people. Do you know what I mean?
That's like- Yeah... to me it's, it, it lands so strong, and I think that's what I kind of, um, kind of strive for, is like the respect of people I value.
And I think over the last couple of years working with John and kind of aligning myself so closely, if anyone knows John's story, the, in, in this kind of creative world, they're aware of the fact that I played a huge role in it.
Yeah. So yeah, John is also great at giving me my props. He's not there- Yeah... saying like, "It's all me, me, me, me, me." He's, anytime he's talked about our success, it's very much our success.
It's the, it's the picture of the two of you with the plaque. Yeah, exactly right. And it's like we, we, we are very much business partners, right? Yeah. I think some people often say like, "Oh, it's John's channel.
It's John's channel." But ultimately like it's the two of us, and John just happens to be the guy that's on screen. Yeah. Well, this is actually something I've been curious about.
So you've got your agency, Click, and as far as I can tell, it's something you launched with this other guy, another ex-Sky guy, um, Seb Lazardo. Yeah.
And then he went and did his own thing, this agency Grow, but like you guys still seem to work together- Yep... and he still works with you and John.
Uh, and then I was like, okay, is John a client or is like, is this like Click is like a business partnership for both of you? Um, explain to me these t- [laughs] these different business relationships. I know.
It's quite confusing. So I, I, I started Click with the kind of vision of like helping many, many creators. Mm-hmm. But what has happened is that John's kind of- He's a full-time guy...
like so fast, I, that he's, yeah, right, like that's, that's the best place for me to place my energy. It's not, it's not ever gonna be worthwhile me trying to find another John. Yeah.
Because obviously now John's at the point where we can kind of, we're operating at such a high level that that's the best place to place my time.
So, um, Seb essentially joins me with consulting on other YouTubers and brands- Mm... as kind of like a two-man team. So he's got his own agency, uh, Grow, which is, uh, it works in a similar way.
It's like YouTube consultancy, adding an extra strategist to your team but for a, a far cheaper price than it would be if you were gonna employ them full time. Yeah.
But with Click, we essentially work with, uh, creators as a pair, right?
Because I think to speak about Seb, he's got so much experience, and he taught, he taught me a lot of what I know now when we were at Sky together, 'cause he was my boss for a good few years. Okay.
Um, and he's incredible at what he does. He's, he's amazing. I would, I sort always sing his praises. Uh, but he has a lot of knowledge that, and I don't perhaps have. Yeah.
And I have a lot of knowledge that he doesn't have, right?
Like we work together so expertly well because we let each other speak, we value each other's opinions, and we'll always come to a better result-From working together than we would do if we just took on a task individually.
So whenever we work with, um, clients to, to our John to consult, we always come to a better result when we're kind of bouncing ideas off each other. Okay.
But essentially John and I, um, employ Seb's services, um, as a strategist for our channel. Okay. And then, um, I noticed, like on Twitter like, uh, a few months ago you were posting you were hiring for new video- Mm...
a long form video editor, I think, to work with John. So do you have like- Yeah... a stable of like editors, designers, like other freelancers?
Or like how, who else is it besides you, John, and then like Seb in that, um, contract capacity? It's, uh, my cousin Jacob, who usually sits over here to the right of me. Nice. Um, he is an editor, producer.
We're kind of training him up to be like a, a mini me, basically. Nice. To kind of like take on board all of the kind of learnings I have. Um, and he does a lot of our short form editing, so, um- Mm-hmm...
and producing as well. So we'll send him on shoots to, to film, uh, he'll come back and edit, and we'll kind of work together to kind of bring a piece together.
But I have to think, a lot of the people would see short form content and they think, "Oh, it's just, it's just clips and it's- No... quick, it's easy." It takes hours.
We take so much t- I use so much time kind of strategizing over content.
Like w- we've, we've spent weeks working on a short before, and people would think they were smashed together in a day, but there's so much strategy behind it. So yeah, like hours and hours of scripting- Yeah...
loads of logistics and planning and bringing things together, and then shooting it, bringing it back, editing it.
And, uh, Jacob does a lot of the kind of like heavy lifting on the, on the edits and like I kind of like take a, a, a- Critical-... more like overarching strategy role. Mm-hmm. Yeah.
You see, wait, is this the same cousin- Um... who you guys raced, um, uh, you raced John and his cousin to, to the Emirates, the- Yeah. Good one... to the Emirates video? It is.
He's, yeah, he's the cousin that was with me- Okay... in that, in that part. And then Brendy raced him. Yeah. Yeah, yeah. Well done. [laughs] Yeah. Wow. Geez, you've done your research. It was a good video.
I, well, I was, you know, I was watching- Yeah... I was watching some clips the other day prep- preparing for this and, and I found that one. I was like, I, I, I watched the whole thing. I was like, [laughs] I can't...
This one's really good. I don't know. But I also- Yeah. Yeah, yeah... I also watched it because you were in it, and I, I was like, "Oh, this is, I don't think this is a very- Oh, cool...
common occurrence that you're in them." And I think it was like a little earlier in the, in the timeline. Um- In the jet? Yeah. I, I don't know, 'cause this is like a rare you on camera.
Was, was that one, did that one like feel different to produce? Tell me, tell me about that video. Yeah, that was good fun.
So yeah, for anyone who doesn't know, we kind of raced from, uh, Manchester to the Etihad, and we basically had two VIP tickets to the game that evening. 16 hours to do it, right? Manchester to London. Yeah.
We, we, we had to get there with no money basically. So we set ourselves the challenge, and it was John and his cousin versus me and my cousin, and we were essentially beg, borrowing, and stealing. Well, no stealing.
[laughs] No stealing. But we would try any means possible to, to get down to London. Uh, 'cause a lot of kind of like approaching strangers. John has this like, uh, ability to do magic tricks, right? So he was- Yeah...
just kind of earning money like that with- Literally with cards... Jacob and I literally- True. Yeah.
We would, we would just basically go taking the approach of just asking people really nicely, which was like less effective.
Uh, but no, it's difficult to produce when you're on sc- on camera, and I think that's a really interesting conversation because I, I've seen it a lot at Sky as well, which people will try and- Play a cultural, as it were...
be on camera. Uh, yeah, and then produce as well.
And my stance on it is that if you're doing that, it's so much harder to make an objective decision about what's right because there's, there are so many, there's a myriad of other decisions about the way you look or- Mm-hmm...
the way you said a line, or did I come across right? And there's so many different caveats to that, right? Well, 'cause you're making yourself vulnerable in being within it. Yes, absolutely. And I, I think
it kinda works well with what I do with John because I'm 99% of the time making that decision. Mm-hmm. And John is so, so good at just accepting the correct decision. He's not, he doesn't have to- He's, he's n- Yeah...
he's genuinely never once n- never once said to me, "I don't like that shot because I didn't like the way I looked," or, "I didn't like the way I s- came across."
Whereas genuinely if it was me, I w- I, I know I would make the wrong decision because I wanted to look better or sound better, and I think I wouldn't be alone in that kind of stance.
But John just lets me take that kind of like, "Well, what's the best? What's gonna get us the most views? What's the..." And he's always happy to kind of have that be the, the shot we use. Yeah.
So yeah, when it's me on camera, it's, it's harder.
And I mean, I don't, I don't need to be on camera, so I'd always rather take someone who has those skills, and I think we've done that with, i- in future videos quite well. People who are very good on camera- Mm-hmm...
and you partner them with John, and John's gets, you get more out of John, and you get some nice funny quips from other people.
So, and you also have me behind the camera directing the shoot and making sure we've captured everything. Yeah. And everything just runs a bit smoother. So one, one, one other video- So that's the optimal setup...
one other video I wanna, I wanna bring up that is I think exemplary of like this, like quality of John, to just like go through it that you're talking about, is the one, um, great title, I Hunted David Beckham, where you guys go to- Yeah...
Miami to, you like learn, he learns how to make fish and chips at, at like, uh, at Beckham's like local chippy, right?
And then fly to Miami, and then you have to find a, um, a, a kitchen in Miami that will allow you to cook fish and chips in their kitchen.
And then that's a whole thing where John is, keeps going in, getting rejected, and he convinces them to do it. And like, and then I'm kinda thinking like, "Oh man," like 'cause I, I used to work in kitchens, you know?
I used, I had my, uh, food handler's card, so I'm like, "Oh man, he's gotta convince them to like- Yeah... you know, take that risk."
And then like he's trying to get the fish and chips into the stadium and he, like somebody's like, "Oh, you can't bring in food here. You have to go to the VIP entrance."
And he goes to the VIP, and they're like, "You can't bring in food here." Mm. But then there's like a guy who you blur out who's likeUm, put my sunglasses on and turn, and turn away.
And I thought that was like- Yeah, yeah... so, uh, it was, uh, it, it was impressive how he's getting these people to like take a risk, uh, i- in the job [laughs] that they're doing.
Um, and he, and he just keeps going through- It's crazy... and he literally says like, "I'll turn my charm on." Um, but yeah, I don't, I don't know.
I guess, I guess the question there is just like when you first started working with John, like, you know, there's so many-- at 5,000 subscribers, there are so many football creators out there in the UK, globally.
You know, I, I consume a lot of football content. Um, why like...
Uh, you, may- maybe you've answered a little bit already, but why were you sure like, "Oh, this is the guy that I'm gonna bet the next like year plus of my life on"?
Um, I, I, I was watching a bit of what John does, um, or did, did at the time. And it was to a small niche audience, but it doesn't change the fact that his ability on camera- Mm-hmm...
he just talks to a camera in the way that he would talk to his friend down the pub. Yeah. And it's such a difficult skill, and it's, and it's really hard to teach that.
You can learn it, and trying to find your voice does happen over time. But equally, he just had it naturally. Yeah, already. And it's, it's, it's very impressive.
And I, I think he's also very, very different to what you see in the football space with most creators. He's a, a bit more sure of himself. Mm-hmm. He's a- he's got that few extra years, so he, he, he's not kind of,
I don't know, clamoring for fame in the same way that some younger people are. Well, he is-- I think he's both a bit more sure of himself and a bit, um, a bit more willing to, to be vulnerable. Like, he doesn't flinch.
Like, I think of some people who like they need to be the center of attention- Yeah... of the character, where- whereas he is more like a vessel for the viewer. Yes. And it, it's funny you say that because he,
he'll always do what's best for the content. Mm-hmm. But actually, in, in a lot of our videos until recently, he's actually been, if you were to like break it down, he's been the supporting actor- Yeah...
in most of our videos. And it has been even with the recent video with Mbappe- Mm-hmm... which has gone huge. We'll talk about that in a second, yeah. John is, John is the supporting actor in that video.
Leo is the star of that video. Mm-hmm. It's a silhouette. And it's all about making his dream come true. Yeah. Yes.
And the fact John's happy to take that role in his own channel shows that he's- just wants what's best for the content. Yeah. And- That's awesome...
there are a lot, a lot of people who would want to be like, "No, I want to be front and center. I want it to be about me, me, me." And another point, right, is that in football
you get a lot-- when you're a creator you get invited to a lot of games. You get- Mm-hmm... given chances to meet players, this, that, and the other.
And after a while, not only does-- not does the magic wear off, but you just think s- this is better in someone else's hands. Someone else would appreciate this more than me. And I think we quickly realized that because
we were getting the chances to go to games as neutral fans, and we were just like, "I have a, I have a mate who's an Arsenal fan. He can't get a ticket for love nor money, and I'm at the North London Derby in VIP.
What is that about?" So we were just like, "Okay, how can we make content about this? And we can-- how can we live vicariously through these people?" And seeing people happy and ecstatic is just great content- Mm...
because they lift you because you can see what it means for them.
So I think a lot of our content strategy now is essentially finding people who would experie- uh, appreciate experiences more than us, but in like super authentic ways. Yeah.
You know, this is-- wait, this is funny 'cause I, I didn't even think about it necessarily in those ones where it's the ones where it's like, uh, do this for the VIP ticket, et cetera.
Um, but I had, I had a note down- Yeah... of like how you guys do this altruistic content where, um, it's these, these like, uh, subscriber storms where it's like, oh, Peter Czech has like a, uh, a drumming channel.
Let's get him to 100k subscribers on YouTube and get him, get them to send him- Yeah, yeah, yeah... a plaque. And you guys did that with RB Salzburg, I think with Ipswich Town, like all these different team- Yeah...
or accounts, teams, people. Um, and I was like, that's a clear content strategy, this like, this altruism that like where again, like John is just like the vessel through which these, these things flow.
Um, but also I think like strengthens how much people like him and like the, the subscribers bond with him and like keeps them coming back, right?
But I hadn't even thought about it with like the VIP ticket thing, but that seems to be like, yeah, one of the core pillars of your guys' content strategy. Altruism. Yeah. Yeah, 100%.
Like trying to make people's dreams come true is a huge part of what we do. Um, but yeah, with, with the kind of subscriber rates, it's very much like we have this influence. We have this community.
How can we use this positively? Um, and I, I mean like giving Peter Czech 100k subs, it's not like you're, you're doing like an amazing good deed. I'm sure [laughs] I'm sure he doesn't really care. Right.
But I think it's kind of like- I mean, altru- not, not necessarily altruism. I'm like- Yeah... yeah.
But you, you're kind of using your community and, and kind of like utilizing them and making everyone feel like they're in a collective and they're doing something that's quite cool.
Um, so, so yeah, we, we've kind of transitioned away from that kind of half and half screen content, um, on short form.
But that was really good for us, and I, I think it just helps build people's affinity to John and make them feel like they're part of his, uh, kind of community. His crew, yeah.
Because subscribers as a, as a metric on YouTube has been, is watered down to some extent because of the, the fact that you don't consume content through your sub box anymore. Yeah. You get served it on your home feed.
So the, the, the need to subscribe to someone is much lower because you're going to just get served the best content for you. It's so clever. Well, so okay, wait. Let's, let's, let's talk about subscribers for a second.
Uh, so, so you, when you started working with John, I, I think the story is July 2022, he has 5,000 subscribers. He has no TikTok.
Um, and then today, or literally yesterday, I wrote this down, he had, uh, 1.7 million on YouTube, 977,000 on TikTok, and 400,000 on Instagram.
Um, and what's craziest about this to me is I think at the beginning of this year you were at, uh, like 675,000 or something. You tweeted on January 6th, you tweeted, "Hold me accountable.
John Nellis will gain one million new subscribers in 2024." He was at seven- 674,000 at the time. Um, so now you've beaten it three months ahead of schedule, but you also- Yeah, cool. That's really cool...
y- you only, you only hit, uh, a million-In August, and then now, like two months later, not even two months later really, you're at, uh, 1.7, and I'm assuming that was the Mbappe video. Uh, no, to be honest. Okay.
I- I- It's been a huge part, but it genuinely, um... No. We've actually... I, I, I don't wanna kind of s- speak too loudly about it, but we've kind of- Yeah... worked it out, right?
Like, you can probably see our growth has been pretty rapid, and we've- Mm... learned so much from doing these kind of, like, in real life shorts, uh, that has taught us about how to gain subscribers. Okay.
And, and they've been fantastic for us. So yeah, we, we've, we've grown exponentially, but it's, it's mainly been through our content strategy to make really strong bespoke shorts that are just
way bigger than anyone else would ever think to put any... Uh, like, way bigger in resource than anyone else would think to put up. Yeah. Be that resource.
So for example, we did a video where we, we, we would go to four different Starbucks and ask them to spell a footballer's name.
The name would get progressively harder, but the tip that we would offer if they got it correct would be progressively larger. [laughs] That's smart.
So we, we went essentially with the idea of kind of giving away a potential 10, 20, 50 and 100 quid. That could have cost us like 180 quid if we'd...
if everyone had got every name right, and loads of people just aren't willing to do that, right? Mm-hmm. It...
And we, we try to kind of take the approach of, like, reinvesting our cash, um, so that we're not kind of, like, just taking the money and running when we do a brand deal.
It's very much like, "Okay, how can we make our content better? How can we level up our content?" And we take a lot of learnings from MrBeast in the way- Mm-hmm...
he operates in the sense of, like, he got a brand deal, for example, where someone said they were gonna pay him seven grand for a brand deal, and he said, "Make it 10, and it just makes it a better YouTube title."
And he, he said... And they did, and he went out and he, he, he made the video, I Gave a Homeless Man $10,000. Mm-hmm. And that video exploded, and it was a big part of his growth.
So we kind of have taken a similar approach. Whilst we haven't got MrBeast level money, it's very much like, let's spend our cash on screen and, uh, yeah, use it to elevate our content.
And we're, we're going to iterate off that Starbucks video soon- Mm... and put up a £1,000 if someone gets a name correct. To take the approach of, "Okay, this is just ludicrous."
Like, have you ever seen anyone give away £1,000? Yeah. What's the... Wait. Okay. Well, like, what's one of the names? What's one of the names? Uh, Jakub Blaszczykowski. I have no idea who that is.
[laughs] It's just ridiculous. But no, no one would, unless you're a football fan. Give a Kiwi owner. But that we stumbled on a football fan. Yeah. Yeah, Kivu. Yeah. That's a good one, actually, Viva. Mm-hmm.
But so we're gonna up the scale and make them progressively harder, but it's gonna be the Starbucks, uh, impossible edition,
but there'll be £1,000 on the line, and all of our content is authentic, so if someone gets it, here's a grand. Yeah.
Well, okay, so I, I'm, I'm curious more about, about how you develop these ideas and how you come to them. You mentioned MrBeast as, like, like, the way...
I don't wanna put words in your mouth, but the way I imagine it is like you're, you're looking at what is, what is good, doing good on YouTube, um, particularly in other niches, not football, and then it's like, how can we put that in our blender- Yeah.
Yeah... and, like, put the John football spin on it, and that's basically probably how you get most of your ideas, yeah? Yeah. Yeah. Absolutely.
So on YouTube, nowadays YouTube is, is really, really difficult to be- Mm... all bars and tables- Saturated... all honest. It's very, very hard to stand out, and also the level of production is just so high.
I think back in the day, you could hold a camera, walk around, vlog, and you make a video and it might go and do a million views.
It's hilarious when you look back on videos that were uploaded 10 years ago, how bad they are and how many views they have. Yeah. It's- it's just mind-blowing.
And then you have some of these amazing videos nowadays that kind of don't reach their full potential just because of the fact that, like you mentioned, YouTube's incredibly saturated, and perhaps they missed the beat on packaging and it's just not that clickable.
Mm. But there's so much competition that you've got to fight against that it's not good enough unless it's perfect. So
yeah, we use a lot of inspiration from, uh, creators, but what I hope is that no one ever can trace where the inspirations come from. Mm-hmm.
So if you, if you look back at all of the videos we've ever made, they've had... They have an inspiration point. They have proof of concept. We need to know before we make it that there is interest in this kind of idea.
Yeah. But it's gonna be smart in a way that you hopefully can't trace where that's come from. Yeah. No, that makes sense. Um- So that we remain original. Well, what about... So what about the packaging?
Like, I, I mean, you know, Colin and Samir, MrBeast, everyone's always saying, like, noth- none of it matters unless the title and the thumbnail, like, hit. Is that just like- Yeah.
I mean, I don't know, maybe it's a boring answer. Are you just, like, A/B testing in, like, your, like, decade of experience now in, like, YouTube titles where it's just like...
it's just, it's just [laughs] 10 years of experience writing these things? It's ex- It's huge... Experience is a huge, huge part of it because, um, whilst I love kind of, like, analytics and learning, you just- Mm-hmm...
after a while, you just get a knack for it. You get the knack. And you just understand what's clickable and yeah, you get a feel for it. A huge part of it is, like, can your title fit on one line? Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.
Is it easy to digest in a, in a brief glance? Uh, can you understand the concept? How does your thumbnail and title pair together to, uh, kind of best portray the concept? Yeah.
Does your thumbnail create enough curiosity so that you want to watch the video?
And then pairing with the video, how does the video itself relate to the title and thumbnail, and does it satisfy what the viewer is expecting when they click on the video? Mm-hmm. Oh, yeah.
There's so much nuance to it, right? I actually heard advice that was like, it's not clickbait unless... It, it... Like, you should...
You, you wanna make clickbait, you wanna provoke, but, like, it's not clickbait if you actually deliver on the promise within, like, you know, a minute of them- Yep...
opening up the video or the, or the essay or whatever it is. Yeah. 100%. Um, so- That's- Go, go ahead. And YouTube's leaning, leaning towards that more, more so than ever, vie- uh, viewer satisfaction- Mm-hmm...
which is essentially amalgamation of a few stats, which is, like, click-through rate, how...
at what rate once, uh, they're presented with the video do they click on the thumbnail?Um, teamed up with average view duration. So- Mm...
if, for example, you have a video of like, I don't know if you've seen the football niche, like craziest things that's ever happened in football. And it's like- Mm...
a plane crashing into a pitch, and like Messi's on fire. [laughs] It's like, of course, it's an amazing thumbnail, but obviously l- I'm gonna click on that video and that's not gonna be in the video. Yeah.
So like- It's... my viewer satisfaction is lower. Mm. So [laughs] I think YouTube is... YouTube is so clever, right? But it's, it's, it's leaning all towards that.
It's, it's understanding how, from a view- way the, a viewer behaves, did they get the video they expected to receive once they saw your packaging? And packaging is just- Mm... so, so important.
It's difficult to put a, a percentage on it, but I, I would say like it's just as important as the video, if not more. Yeah. Probably is. Well, okay. So the video itself, so retention ed- retention strategy and editing.
This is something- Yeah... I've seen you say, like whether- Yeah...
it was on Twitter, another podcast, that like is obviously something you guys think about a lot and it's so important, but then I'm also thinking about, uh, MrBeast I think earlier this year saying like, "Oh, you know, moving away from some of that like hyper retention editing and, and such into like letting things- Yeah...
breathe a little bit more," and like, you know, this is a YouTube trend I've heard Colin some you're talking about, et cetera. Um, so what- Yeah...
I'm curious your thoughts on that, this kind of retention editing and like how your strategy for retention in videos. Yeah.
So retention editing people, a lot of people think it's like cuts every two seconds, super fast paced. Yeah. Boom, sound effects, music.
I take more of a, a stance in terms of, okay, how much is the storyline enjoyable to the viewer? How... Do they have a, a grasp of where the story's going?
Do they have all the context they need to consume what they're watching? Um, and do they have enough trust in you that what you're going to deliver is worth staying for?
Well, this is like I think wh- as an example, let's use an example. Let's use the, um, the Manchester to London video you guys did where it's like in that there's these two dueling- Yeah... storylines.
There's like a couple things at stake- Yeah... where you guys each have like three advantages you can use.
It's like, and, and not that it's like this like hyper fast editing, but it keeps going between these two and it's like you're invested in these dual storylines.
And like I said, I meant to watch like five minutes and move on, but it's like only 16 minutes, but then that 16 minutes is so digestible because it's like you kind of, your mind is already like thinking of all the beats.
It's like it's literally, it's literally like on a track, right? It's lit- like, it's literally like a percentage thing- Yeah... in your mind where it's like, "Oh, they're this close. They're this close.
They're this close."
So it's, it's more of like, I think you said also too that it's, it's less about like necessarily the editing than like the, [clears throat] the pre-production, planning the story, and like making sure that there's stakes at every stage that are understood by the viewer.
100%. Stakes are so, so important. Like, so with that, for example, you know that the... we are fighting to kind of receive these tickets.
There's a time constraint that's coming down, um, and also there's budgets and how we're getting on, and John and Brendy might be in the lead, but we're fighting back.
So, uh, from a editing perspective, I want you to know that, um, Jacob and I, whilst they're in the lead, still have a chance of winning because there's a- Yeah... a faster mode of transport that we're saving up to get.
So those kind of elements where you go, "Okay, John and Brendy aren't just gonna win." Because if they just win, and it's so clear after five minutes of a 16-minute video, you're off because you know the outcome.
So I need to really- Mm... re-hook you at the point where you think John and Brendy have won. I need to make it clear to you that actually no, we have a really strong chance of winning this. And
yeah, that, that's a, that's a good example of like progression in storytelling and making sure that people understand what's at stake, how- Mm-hmm...
the story's going, and how the characters are kind of progressing towards that final end goal. And obviously the payoff of whoever wins the ticket is the final element of the video. Is just lingering the whole time.
We- Yeah. We, we, we... Once we deliver who gets to the, the game, who gets the tickets, we're out. Mm. Because we- you've, you've got what you came for. That's what you came for. You came to see who goes to the game.
Yeah. Okay. Well, wait, so I wanna get out of the nuts and bolts of the video stuff in a second. Yeah. Uh, but one last question on this is like, um, I'm interested in like how you're working with other collaborators.
So like the production that's like not just like, you know, people on the street, and like two, two kind of things on my mind for this is obviously the Mbappé one.
You got access to Mbappé, and I think there's this access journalism side to a lot of what you do.
Um, but then, uh, maybe a-another way to talk about that, to talk through that is there's this partnership with Sorare, which is like this, this fantasy football product. Yeah. Right?
Um, and that seems like they're kind of the main commercial brand partner for what you do with John.
Um, so the question is just like how you approach working with like other, with collaborators, not people in the video, but like your more like commercial collaborators. Yeah.
So we've been really fortunate because Sorare have been such a big part of what we've done in our journey. They've been with us from the, the moment we started making content. So we know the team very well.
We know the company very well. John knows the product inside out because he plays it and he's an avid player of it. So they value that incredibly highly, um, because it's so difficult to get, right?
When you get, when you see peop- uh, create- Can't make this... these brand deals, it's very much like, "Play Clash of Clans," and you know you can see through it. They don't give a shit about Clash of Clans.
Whereas- That dude works with Erling Haaland in it, yeah. Yeah. But even then I'm, I'm like, "Well, he got the bag. Fair face him." Yeah. I'm not gonna play Clash of Clans because Er- Erling Haaland's put his face to it.
Some kids might, but not for me. Whereas John- Mm... can say with his chest, "I've played Sorare for years, and I genuinely love it."
So it translates more once he tells you to sign up because you can see he believes in it.
But in terms of a brand partner, they're fantastic because not only do they have great access to great ambassadors and, and athletes, but they just trust us, and I think- Mm...
that carries a lot of weight because a lot of brands when you work with them want things to be a certain way and wants you to say this slogan in a...
want it said in this, this point of the video and, and certain things and, and-Of course, they've, they've got their own targets to hit.
But we say to brands all the time, "If you just trust us, we'll make you the best video. It will do the most views it can, and ultimately, your brand will be seen by as many people as possible.
But if you get in the way of the content strategy, you'll kill the video, and as a result, your brand will be seen by less people." Mm. It's really that simple.
Whereas Sorare just get it, and they s- they leave the, the ball in our court to, to come up with these ridiculous ideas, and they just back us.
And with Mbappé, you've got people from Sorare who are fighting our corner and saying, "Trust Jon, he'll make a great video if you just let him blindfold his friend for 10 hours and reveal him in front of Mbappé."
Do you know what I mean? It's a ridiculous thing to ask of- Yeah... a footballer. 'Cause o- only Jon would do that. Exactly.
And ho- hopefully that's the kind of, like, expectation from a viewer's perspective that we're building, is that, like, that's a really Jon thing to do, and no one else would bother.
Because it's a lot of effort, it's really, really awkward. It's difficult to make sure that he doesn't actually see and work out where he is. There's so much to it that people don't even see inside a short video. Yeah.
Um, but yeah, we... That's why we're quite confident that people aren't gonna replicate what we do because of the fact that it's, it's so much easier to just- No one else has Jon... take a shortcut. Yeah. Yeah, exactly.
But it's, it's... The idea of, like, going up to strangers, for example, and, like, ask them to cancel their flight to instead move onto a flight with us, it's so awkward.
And, like, no- not many people have that in them to be able to take on that challenge, whereas Jon just does, and it makes me confident that people aren't gonna replicate what we do. Yeah. No, that makes sense.
Um, I was gonna ask. I, I, I wanted to go back and find, like, the oldest videos. Yeah. Find the original videos that Jon was working on. Uh, I clicked oldest on the channel. Uh-huh.
The oldest one's, like, 10 months old. Um, so I'm curious, like- Yeah, yeah... there's two questions there. Like, what's the logic for deletion?
And then, um, were you, were you guys always doing the long form and the short form at the same time, or was it, like, short form for, like, the first eight months and then long form?
The logic for deletion is the fact that our catalog of videos at the moment that you see are all very bingeable and they're what we want you to see Jon as.
Whereas keeping up, like, a live stream or, like, 10 Sorare players you should buy is just, it's of zero value. Mm. It's as simple as saying, like, if you ask me, "Do you want someone to watch that?" I'd just say no.
Well, the question though is, like- So deleting it... if they watch this, will they watch another one right after? Yeah, exactly. It's, it's essentially gonna...
People are not gonna be satisfied when they see that video because the video's about players that don't longer play for the teams you mentioned- Yeah...
and it's just, it's just different content to the, to the style we make today. So yeah, I'm a big fan of just, like, cleaning up content and just- EA wants to sell FC 25, they don't wanna sell FIFA 13. Exactly.
So genuinely if a, if, if a FIFA... If I was working with a FIFA creator, I wouldn't be against nerfing all of their old FIFA videos and just making sure- Mm... that all the newer ones are there.
Because then if you have a smaller catalog, let's say we have, like, 10, 12 videos, you could quite easily now go through and binge them all. Mm. Whereas if we had 160 videos, you wouldn't know which ones to watch.
You've got a smaller pool, so you're likely- Yeah... to consume the ones that we presented to you. That's smart. Um, okay, I wanna talk about the business side of things a little bit.
Um, so you don't need to tell me exactly how much money you're making, but I am curious how long it took you to replace your full-time salary at Sky, uh, how long it took working with Jon and doing Click to, to get back to that and I'm presuming past that?
Yeah. Uh, it's difficult to say really. It... There was a, there was a lot of times where we, I wasn't making as much money as I was making at Sky. There, there were... Uh, in the early days.
But then in content creation you get, you get peaks and troughs. So in the early days I was making... Some months I would make nowhere near, and I would be like, "What am I doing?" Yeah.
And Jon would be as well, because he came from a... He earned more than I did when he was in air traffic control, so he had a bigger salary to replace.
So ultimately when we had quiet months, it was a case of, like, he's probably feeling this more than I do because he's got more bills and he's, he's kind of reliant on that more money. So I was able to... Thankfully my,
my mortgage was very low, and it was the right time to make that jump. Because if I had a quiet month, it would be okay.
But yeah, it took a long time to, to build it up to the point where I surpassed what I was making at Sky. Um, maybe about, maybe about a year I would say. Yeah. Six months to a year. It's not too bad though.
Yeah, it's not, it's not too bad. Is it just, is it just you working with Jon right now? Yeah. Um, and I'm just curious, like, the...
I guess both your revenue streams, like, as this, like, strategist, and then also Jon's revenue streams.
Like, I'm, I'm imagining in, like, from the outside it looks like you're just working with Jon, and then it looks like Jon is making, like, AdSense money and then, like, Sorare money, and that's kind of, like, what powers this whole operation.
Is that, is that accurate? Uh, pretty accurate, yeah. So we, we, we work in equity, so obviously I have- Yeah... a stake in the channel. I have a stake in all the brand deals, uh, that come in through the channel. Uh,
so yeah, AdSense, affiliate marketing- Mm... um, one-off brand deals, brand deal retainers. Uh, they're our kind of, like, pillars that operate the business.
And then outside of that, I do a bit of consultancy with, um, individuals who will come along with... and book, like, an hour of my time. Yeah.
And then I have clients on retainers as well, uh, that I work with alongside Seb. Yeah, nice. Uh, okay, and then your, your day-to-day and how much time you are spending.
Like, I'm curious, like, how much time you think you work a week, how many hours per week, and then, like, what, what a given day looks like in your, in your work life. Yeah, so I, I probably...
It depends what you classify as work- [laughs]... because, like, I'm always just putting out fires- Everything... into the evening and, [laughs] and in the, on the weekend. But, like, I'm quite strict. I have an office.
I, I come to the office. I make sure that I-Get in at, let's say, half 9:00, 10:00. That's the beauty of being self-employed, you don't have like, "Get in at 9:00 o'clock." It's very much like, "Okay, just
get in and work." Get in and do the work. And I'll leave, I'll leave at like s- 6:00 o'clock, maybe 7:00 o'clock. Uh, so I'm kind of work- I'm kind of working like eight, nine-hour days. It's nothing too ludicrous. No.
Um- Mm-hmm... and I take weekends off as well. But obviously there are times where we shoot on weekends, and in that instance I'll maybe work Saturday, Sunday. Gotta go to Dortmund sometimes. Yeah.
And then, and then I'll, I'll... I'm very much like that cannot impede on the, the weekly work because that still needs to be done. So I'd... I'm very bad at giving myself days off in the week. Mm-hmm.
So there's some times where I, if you actually look at it on a calendar, I might, I might have worked like 10, 12 days in a row. Yeah. How many- But-... how many videos do you think you have- Yeah...
in production with John at any given time, shorts and longs?
Ooh, shorts and longs we, we've got, uh, we, we always like to give ourselves at least one video buffer on shorts, and we post, uh, posting at the moment about like once every three days.
Um, we're always cooking up videos. Like, we have honestly about 60 to 70 ideas- Mm-hmm... that we're kind of not working on, but they're in, they're in the back catalog. Yeah. In the hopper.
Um, and in terms of, in terms of planning and production stages, we've maybe got like seven. Um, editing at any one time we'd maybe have like five or six, and that's just constantly getting topped up.
In terms of long form, we have some really, really top ideas, uh, that are kind of like ready to go. At any one time we've, we're really kind of working on one or two videos. Mm-hmm. Um,
because at the moment, as you mentioned about the long form editor, I'm editing long form videos, and this shouldn't be the way really because I'm doing so much.
But, um, at the moment I'm doing that because we haven't found anyone to kind of take that off me. Yeah.
Um, and then in terms of- Well, hard to find somebody who's gonna do it to the quality and like commitment to the, to the, to the project as you, right? That's like kind of the thing about being- Yeah...
you know, a freelancer- It's-... being your own boss... it- it's, it's tough to find someone, um, who kind of gets it.
And also like I f- I, I find it hard like handing over tasks because I know that if I'm gonna do something, it'll be done to like the best of my ability and exactly as what's in my head.
Whereas it, it, it will only achieve that if I'm stood with someone really like over the edit- Yeah... and at that point should I not just do it myself?
Like, you can do that for like three weeks, but then you need them doing it their own. Yeah, exactly. You need, you need to be, have, have the edit kind of like moving forward without you present. Mm-hmm.
Otherwise, why have you got the editor?
So we're, we're kind of looking for that person, and we're trying to work out like as we adjust to this, these new workflows what tasks people can take off my hands, because then if you free up my time, how can it be best allocated and, and be better utilized?
Yeah. Um- Because having me sync footage, for example, isn't the best use of my time. Well, how, well, how can, how can that time be best utilized? Like, what are, I'm...
Are you like, is the dream here, is the goal like, uh, in five years it's like the John Nellis- Yeah... Media Network? Like, I don't know. What, what...
Like, let's say, 'cause you had that tweet that I quoted at the beginning, like, "Get to a million this year." Yeah. You got there. What's the goal for, um, a year from now, end of 2025? The dream even.
Uh, I always set like big goals. And like that tweet really sums up me as a person.
Like, I like big, big goals, and I like making them public so everyone's like, "Oh, shit, this guy really backs himself, and backs John, and backs the operation."
[laughs] Because like I, I just know John will be the biggest football creator in the world. Mm-hmm. There are other big people, like for example, like Celine Dept is like the biggest. She has like 37 million. Mm-hmm.
I don't believe John will have more subscribers than her. I, I, to be honest, but it pi- that, her content really lends itself to gaining subscribers from all corners of the globe- Mm-hmm...
because it's, it's n- not at all dependent on language. Ah, yeah.
It means that you basically are watching someone to, let's say, like kick a ball into a goal or, uh, name a player and, and get pushed into a pool or something like that. Mm-hmm.
And it's like anyone from anywhere around the world can watch that. And as a result, her subscriber cap is- Not even really about football, it's just about physical comedy... yeah.
It's, her subscriber cap is, is really, really high. So s- she'll be the biggest football creator by like, uh, subscriber metrics. You've also got FootCrunch. Um, he's fantastic.
Like his team are so, so talented and, um, yeah, and I've, I've spoke to them a lot over the years and they've given us loads of advice. They're huge and they'll be huge forever. They're amazing.
I just wanna be at that, that table, and I know that we can be. Um, so like- Yeah... I think
I can totally see us getting 10 million subscribers, which to many people would be like totally unachievable, but like I know that will happen, it's just a matter of time.
And it's just a matter of kind of like continuing to learn and evolve and develop your content so that it doesn't stagnate. Maybe, maybe two, three years, 10 million subs. Two, three years, 10 million.
You heard, you heard it here first, folks. Um, which I think too- Yeah... it's also getting more popular. Like, I only got into it. I like now I'm, I'm like an Arsenal fan. I, you know, watch every weekend, et cetera.
I st- I only started watching like after the last World Cup. Yeah. And then you have people like, um, you know, IShowSpeed, like him getting so into it and that, that is having like a knock-on effect I think. Yeah.
And it's only getting more popular. Um, to that point, there's this graphic you posted. You guys did the Euros, and there's this graphic you posted, uh, afterwards that shows- Mm...
that John's YouTube channel got more views and subscribers during the tournament than ITV Sport, BBC Sport in England, the England national team, um, combined.
So I would love for you to talk a little bit about how you see that relationship between creators and traditional media like, like your ex-employer. Like, I consume a lot of The Athletic's content.
Um, yeah, how do you see that relationship- Yeah... like now and evolving? Uh, it's difficult because obviously they're the rights holders, so- Mm-hmm...
they have the upper hand, and I think that's, that's why I put that tweet out. It's notIt's difficult because I obviously used to work at Sky Sports, and it's not to say anything bad about, like my former company.
[laughs] But ultimately, it is absolutely absurd that someone with zero rights could outperform people who have the rights to that tournament. That's absolutely ridiculous.
It's the rights holders versus the attention holders. Yeah. And we, we have more scope to push the reins a little bit. Like, we can be a bit more provocative.
We can kind of do things that are gonna drive more, uh, kind of like attention and controversy. Mm-hmm. But equally, um,
I, I think we-- Because of the fact that we had to learn, like when we both got our jobs, it just had to work. Mm-hmm. We've just learnt so, so quickly, and in the last two years, the amount that we've both come along
is more than I came along eight years at Sky. Well, wait. So let me interrupt you actually for a second. I think, I think this is a good point.
Uh, where like yeah, you spent eight, eight years at Sky, uh, but then you left and you've, you've come along quicker, and you've got equity in this, and it's like
s-like the people who are really good at this and like who can scale an audience really quickly don't wanna be at, at Sky- Yeah... because you, you've got more opportunity on your own.
Um, and there's these other numbers that were going around this summer, uh, Nielsen data for American TV streaming viewing habits, and it was, um, forty-one point four percent of all TV watching was streaming, and ten point...
or a quarter of that, so ten point four percent of all s- of all TV watching was YouTube. Um, and so the next biggest percentage number was Netflix at eight point four percent.
So you know, the YouTube numbers keep going up.
Um, and I think that that is a good point, that like the, you know, the Sky's, the BBC's, whatever, might hold the rights, but like the most talented, most motivated people don't have equity.
It- Yeah You're not gonna get equity in these massive- The hub itself... decades-old companies, right? So I don't know. From, from where I'm sitting, it looks like,
like people like you who kind of are mastering the art of like building these audiences, not, not on the cheap, but on the quick maybe, um, only do continue- Yeah, yeah... to gain more power.
But I'm curious then, yeah, like 'cause somebody still has to hold the rights, and there's like all the legal bits and stuff. So that's, that's not gonna change. I don't know. Yeah.
And also, like when you're at Sky Sports, you have to operate a certain way. Your brand has to fit- Yeah... a certain way. You, you, you can't break rules. You-- It's very much more formulated.
But ultimately, from my experience working at a large company, I'm, I didn't have the same level of investment as I do now, and that sounds like- Yeah... the obvious thing to say, but I- Quite literally...
really, really, really cared about my job at Sky, because whenever I-- you put me in something, I have to do it to the best of my ability.
But equally, when I have a stake in something, and I can literally see money coming into our accounts and our subscribers growing, and I know that's literally like something I own, I'm going to work harder.
[laughs] And I think it sounds obvious, right? But I think that's partly why the fact that, uh, creators essentially I think are, are just able to grow and learn because they just have to find the way, right?
And when you find the way- Mm-hmm... and you find the trick and the, and the extra kind of, uh, kind of like learnings, you compound those a lot faster
than you do when you're at Sky, because like why, why would I on a Saturday, if I'm not working, be like studying a, like a competitor's video, working out why they managed to retain a viewer for longer during that period?
Because I don't have any real benefit to implementing that- Mm-hmm... at a large company.
Whereas if I can work out why a competitor's done something and it's worked really well, and then take that and take it into our own content, and it levels our content up, we gain more subscribers, we make more money, that's beneficial to me.
Yeah. Simple as. Uh, I think that's a good place to end it. What would you like to plug? Uh, just, it... honestly, if you... I'm not gonna lie, I, I don't have a lot to sell, but just hope you enjoyed listening.
I mean, if you wanna, if you wanna pay me for a consultation session, then I would never say no. [laughs] But no, no, just subscribe to John Lewis and help us hit that ten million subs mark. Perfect.
Well, this has been the Creator Spotlight podcast, and listener, I will see you next week.
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