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People weren't really doing newsletters so much back then. Where did it come from? Can I swear on this podcast? Oh, yeah. Go ahead. Yeah. Kinda came into work every day and, like, fucked around.

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Where are these 23,000 people coming from? I was doxxed by 8chan. I was like, "This is wild." Those are your weeks when I don't sleep a lot. I've never heard of anybody doing that. That pissed me off so much.

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I was like, "You don't know about me. You don't know how this newsletter started." God, I hate hearing myself use the term content. I do not like the term content. I hate the term creator.

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Welcome back to the Creator Spotlight podcast.

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Our guest today is Caitlin Dewey, a journalist with bylines in outlets like The New York Times, The Guardian, The Cut, Slate, Buffalo News, and The Washington Post, where she was the first to hold a digital culture critic role.

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Uh, we're talking today though because she's the creator of the perfectly titled newsletter, Links I Would Gchat You If We Were Friends.

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Uh, she's been doing the newsletter for a decade, since Gchat was actually a thing, um, but she did take a few years off in the middle, and this year she's been working on making it her main gig.

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Um, let's start though with that Washington Post bit. So you were at The Washington Post for six years.

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For the first two years as a social, as a social media reporter, then as the digital culture critic, and then the final two reporting on food policy. Which beat was your favorite there?

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First off, Francis, you know me better than I know myself. [laughs] Thank you. That's my job. Um, [laughs] uh, that's a good question. I mean, um, yeah, I think probably digital culture critic was my favorite, right?

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Um, there were a lot of bad things that happened during that time. I was doxxed by 8chan, things of that nature- Mm-hmm... that sort of in hindsight shadowed the experience for me. But it was a fun beat, right? Yeah.

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And I've come back to it now, so, you know, all, everything comes full circle. Mm-hmm. How did you like...

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W- what were, like, the editorial decisions you guys were making when you, when you started in that role, like def- defining that beat, how you talked about it, et cetera? Like, how did you form that?

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I wish I could tell you that there was a lot of strategy and thoughtfulness there, um, and I imagine that there is now in similar roles.

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But at the time, like I'm very much dating myself and this seems very naive, like the notion- [laughs]... of covering digital culture in a b- as a beat at all was, like, very novel and revolutionary.

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So I, you know, I kinda came into work every day... Can I swear on this podcast? Oh, yeah. Go ahead. Yeah. Okay. Kinda came into work every day and, like, fucked around.

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Like, it's like, um, I read the internet all morning, here are three things that seem interesting, and my editor would be like, "Yeah, no." Um, and we'd go from there.

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I ca- [laughs] I can't claim that there was, like, um, a unified theory of digital culture behind it. I will say I generally... I never wanted to cover things that were trending for five minutes- Hmm...

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and then would never matter again. Like, I generally speaking gravitated towards stories- Well, the life cycle is-... that I thought said something bigger.

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The life cycle was kind of longer on, on any given thing on the internet back then, right? It was like 10 years ago. Probably. It's true. Yeah. Yeah. Probably true. And it's like, uh, one day as opposed to one hour.

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Um- [laughs] That, but I wanted things that, like, would matter for more than one day, right? Like, if I chose to sink a lot of time into something, I'm like- Mm-hmm...

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this should say something bigger about, like, society or communication or the culture, whatever. Um- Yeah... so I think insofar as I had a strategy, that was it. Yeah. Um, okay.

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So this is when you started the newsletter. You started the newsletter, like, right before you started doing the, the digital culture beat. Why, why did you start it? What...

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Like, people weren't really doing newsletters so much back then. Where did it come from? Francis, do you remember TinyLetter? I barely do, but I do. [laughs] Was TinyLetter before your time? [laughs] Uh-huh.

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It was before I was newslettering at least. Um, yeah. So I would say that was at sort of the cusp of, like, the first newsletter boom, right? It wa- Mm-hmm... it was TinyLetter, it was, like, Ann Friedman's.

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Tab's was around back then. Oh, yeah.

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Um, so at, at the time I was just spending, like, many hours every workday reading the internet, and at some point I was like, it's kind of a waste of time that I do all this reading- [laughs]...

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and nothing ever becomes this. [laughs] Um, so I had a very cool chill boss, and he agreed that I could also work on this personal newsletter during work hours. Mm-hmm. Um, and I launched on, on TinyLetter.

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It was, it was very casual. If you had told me that newsletter would end up being my job, I would actually laugh in your face. Um- Yeah... but here we are.

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[laughs] Well, and you were doing it, I mean, so it sounds like it was, it was kind of a side effect of your job where it's like, uh, almost like notes for your main job.

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You, where you're, like, recording, like maybe this thing is cool, I might, I'm still thinking about this. I wanna like, you know, write it down somewhere, right? Yeah, something like that.

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I mean, I had developed this, like, very sophisticated RSS feed infrastructure, right? Yes. Like, I had honed it over years.

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Um, and so I was encountering a lot of cool stuff that way, and I was in fact Gchatting it to my friends. Um- [laughs] But I'm like, there, there has to be, like, a more useful- Yeah...

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way to turn this time and this work into something. So that was the time. Yeah. So do, are you still using, like, a curated RSS feed or is that still part of your process?

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The RSS feed is my number one portal to the internet. Mm-hmm.

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I never, like, switched to making social my main way of news or information consumption, and I'm glad I didn't since that does seem to have collapsed [laughs] - Yeah... as a reliable news and information source.

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Um, I'm absolutely devoted to my RSS feed reader. I have put more than a decade into it, so. That's amazing.

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Um, okay, I think for the, for the listeners we should describe like what the structure of the newsletter was back then quickly. So I went back.

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I would say that, like, it's a quick intro, uh, maybe three links, each one with a couple sentences of context, a little postscript, and that's it. And each, each issue's like 300, 400 words.

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Um, and, and that's really it. Is that fair to say? And it came out daily, yeah. Yes, it came out daily. Okay.

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So this is just like, was this like every lunchtime at work you're, like, sitting down and like, "Oh, let me... What did, what did I read today? Let me put it out"?Basically, yeah.

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I think I did it in less than an hour every day, which I- Nice... you know, envy my own youth. Yeah. I'd love to see it happen again. [laughs] Um, okay.

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So you started in, at the beginning of 2014, and then, I don't know if I'm, like, missing part of the archive, but I was scrolling back through your, your Substack archive, and I f- the last issue I could see before you stopped for a few years is November 2nd, 2016.

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It's a guide on how to safeguard your sanity in the last days of the election. Um, you know, some things change or everything else stays the same, et cetera. Um, why... There was no note though about, like, this is it.

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It was... You, you literally said somewhere in it, like, "See you next week." Why, why did you stop? [laughs] Yeah, this is by no means best practices for newsletter management.

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Um, but it, by all appearances it looks like I stopped because of the 2016 election. [laughs] That is not the case. Yeah. I actually got a new job. Uh- Okay.

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[laughs] So I switched beats at the Post and- To food policy... this is ridicul- I've switched to food policy, and for a while I did plan to write Link on my new beat. This is...

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I'm, like, almost embarrassed to admit this. This is a real idea that I had.

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I was going to get a designer to make me a new logo that said, that would say Link Soji, chat with your freer friends, but it would have, like, sausages or something on it. Oh, that's great.

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So it's like, "This is about food policy now." [laughs] Mm-hmm. You could have designed the newsletter- Um... like it was a menu at a restaurant maybe. That's right.

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I'd see, if I had known you at the time- You could have one section appetizer, starter, dessert... we would've got it off the ground. [laughs] Yeah. [laughs] If only. That actually [laughs] really would've worked. Um,

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so I had every intention of doing that, and then I just didn't, and years passed and I'm like, "Well, this is embarrassing. I, uh," [laughs]... "it's too late to say anything now."

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So, um, yeah, I essentially abandoned it for almost four years. Almost four years.

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And then, and then 2020 you start it again, which my impression is it's, it's, like, a typical, you know, pandemic, what am I doing with my life? I've got too much time on my hands, let me...

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Oh, there's this thing I used to do, let's, let's start it again, right? Very much so. And I was furloughed, so- Yeah... but by that point I had switched jobs. I was working in, uh, local news.

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I went back to my hometown paper. Mm-hmm. And kind of the instant they announced furloughs, I was like, I better take a hard look at my life, you know? [laughs] I also got furloughed at this time, so I feel you.

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I'm sorry to hear that. [laughs] Oh, and you're in, you're in New York as well, right? Yeah. So you dealt with the unemployment system. Yes. Yeah. It, that, it took, uh, two months I think for me to get a check.

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I didn't even get my full unemployment from New York State, and ag- rather, like, I just gave up on the newsletter. At some point I was like, "I'm, I'm done. I'm out. I'm moving on to the next thing." Yeah.

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"I will never see that $500." [laughs] It is what it is. Um, okay. So you start doing it again then in much the same format that you were doing it in, in the first iteration.

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Um, and it kind of, I don't know, almost slowly you start to do more. Uh, and then just less than a year ago, so you... In, I think this May, right? May 1st.

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You'd been doing it for now, like, two and a half years again or something like that, and you did this rebrand.

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Uh, but, and like, you know, so you introduced paid subscriptions, et cetera, but I think this kind of, like, there's one more event before that where you kind of, I think, about a year ago you decide to start...

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I don't know if this was... Did you decide to start doing the newsletter full-time or was it, like, leaving a job? I think that's, like, the relevant event before the rebrand, right?

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Yeah, it's been almost exactly a year since I left my job in local news. Yeah. Um, October 6th of last year I left. Yeah. Oh, wow. Um, okay. So then was it, like,

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d- were you diving directly into the newsletter or what was the decision there? Yeah. Uh, I'm impressed that I'm being really candid with you. When I left my job I had, um, a very regimented week-by-week plan.

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Um, the newsletter was supposed to relaunch on December 1st, um, and then I had a miscarriage. Oh, no. It was my third in a row. It was, um, absolutely devastating. I've written about it a lot in the newsletter.

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And I es- essentially didn't really work for three months. Like, I just, like, slept a lot and felt bad for myself. Yeah.

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Um, which is not the way anyone wants to start out their, like, freelan- freelance or, like, solopreneur. [laughs] Yeah. [laughs] Um- Seems ridiculously rude to use that word, solopreneur, in the light of, like- I, I-...

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that kind of event. [laughs] It's, it's more diff- Yeah... I have to put it in quotes every time- Oh... sometimes there's a video element to this. Um, so that was, I mean, that was really scary, right? Yeah.

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Like, I had just walked away from a regular paycheck. I had just walked away from excellent health insurance. Yeah. Ugh.

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Um, the one advantage of local news, like, union shop, I had amazing health insurance, which I had given up. Yeah. Um, so that was a huge roadblock and a huge challenge, but I ca- I stayed the course.

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I did get that plan back on track just months after I expected and, um, ended up launching on May 1st, as you said. Yeah. Well, I mean, impressive. Uh, the... Okay, so the May 1st launch,

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it's, it, it, it leads to, so two, two issues now instead of, like, one and then sometimes another one a week. Uh, a beautiful redesign. You've got this great, like, kind of logo and, like, cohesive brand now.

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And, and then the paid subscription. So tell me about, like, the preparations. Like, once you're back on track and you're planning for this, what, what's going through your mind? What are you researching?

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What's inspiring you in terms of, like, other models you're trying to emulate? Um, yeah. What were you thinking about leading up to the rebrand? Yeah.

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So I did what I could only term, like, an obsessive amount of research and planning for the relaunch. I had, like, tremendous anxiety about it being a failure- Yeah...

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so my Type A way of dealing with that was, like, planning out every little detail. [laughs] That's... Yep. Um, [laughs] it helped, right? It helped. Yes. Yeah.

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[laughs] Um, so the one thing that I think I found most instructive for me was, you know, I surveyed my existing readers, which is- Mm... co- you know, common practice, common advice for doing this type of rebrand.

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At, at the time it was, like, 15,000 or so that you had? It was probably less than that- Okay... actually. It m- it was probably s- somewhere in between, like, 13,000- Yeah... and 15,000. Um,

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I surveyed my existing readers, but then more importantly I did one-on-one video calls with-I think probably about three dozen- Oh, wow... of people- That's a lot... who responded to the survey.

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And I tried to pick a good cross-section of people, right? Like, people who were super fans, people who were like, "I'm kind of into this newsletter," but would never- Mm-hmm... pay for it.

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Um- People who'd opened one issue. [laughs] And [laughs] I don't think I talked to any of those people. Yeah. [laughs] Yeah, that would be maybe a waste of time.

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Um, mostly because I'm not sure I could get them on the phone, right? Like what... [laughs] They, they don't care. Um, but those were so valuable to me, 'cause I mean, you know this.

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When you write a newsletter, even if you have, like, a really good, engaged audience, you are essentially writing into the void every week. Like, you do not- Yeah... know who is on the other end.

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And being able to get to know people on that, like, one-on-one friend basis, like in the name, and just find out, like, who are they? Like- Yeah... what do they do for work? Where do they live?

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What are they interested in? That really helped me inform the changes that I made to the newsletter. Nice. Yeah. That's...

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I mean, I definitely know the writing into the void thing, which I should say too, like, this interview came about because you replied to the welcome email for Creator's Follow when you signed up, which I always appreciate so much, 'cause y- it's insane how few reply.

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I mean, I don't comment. I don't really com- if I'm, if I'm like reading an article on the web, I don't really comment on it anyways, so like, you know, those who live in glass houses throw stones, et cetera. Um,

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okay, anyways, I...

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Okay, I do wanna know more, though, about your relationship to the audience and how that's changed over the years, 'cause I bet, like, at the very beginning, it's, you know, probably, like, just your friends and, like, colleagues and stuff 10 years ago, and now it's 20,000 people.

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So yeah, tell me about relationship with the audience, how it was 10 years ago, and how that has shifted to now.

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To some extent, I mean, you're right, it has completely changed in that it began as my literal friends and friends of my friends, right? Mm. So people just outside my social circle.

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Um, and now it's needless to say not that. But also, like, my, my orientation to my audience over that time is... God, even saying audience, I'm like, I don't want to refer, refer to them in that way. Yeah. Um, readers.

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It... My relationship and my orientation to readers has, like, not really changed over that time. Yeah. Um, I think that, that just has so much to do with who I am as a person and what my goals for this newsletter were.

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Like, I never set out to create, nor do I have, a media empire, nor do I have any interest in it, right? Yeah. Um, like, I always just i- you know, like, my goals are small.

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Like, I want to write an interesting thing that brightens other people's day in some way, and also, like, I am a very friendly person who likes to engage and learn about other people. So I

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cannot have one-to-one relationships with- Yeah... 23,000 people. Uh, like, regrettably. Um- Yeah. [laughs]... that would be awesome. But like, I tr- I try to approximate that as best I can, right?

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So, like, the most fundamental level, like, if you send me an email, I very much try to write back, right?

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Um, but there's also some things I started doing when I launched paid subscriptions, which have, have been quite laborious but, like, to me are the most important stuff that I do.

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So, like, if you buy a paid subscription to Links and you give me your birthday and your email address, I will... I send you a handwritten thank you note with a sticker. Um- Oh, that's neat... it's... I, I love it.

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You know? That- Yeah... but that's like how I was raised, right? Yeah. That you send people thank you notes. So it's like, I'm just gonna keep doing that through this business endeavor.

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Um, and then on your birthday, I send an e-card with, like, a random fun link from my- That's so nice... I, I have, like, a folder of links that I save for birthdays. Yeah, your bag of links. [laughs] Exactly.

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[laughs] Exactly. Um, and I also started an Instagram account that, the... Essentially the sole purpose on it was to follow my readers back. Oh.

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Just to, like, introduce, like, a, a little more, like, equality to this weird relationship where, like, I'm always talking to you, but, like, you never talk to me. That's so good.

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Um- I feel like I've, I've never heard of anybody doing that, 'cause that's such a, like... That, that really does, like, make it less one-sided, I feel like.

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That's, that's such a, like, a level of, you know, audience, reader engagement. I've never heard of that. That's so cool. But, like, it's not, it's not strategic, right?

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It's not intended as an- No, well, it's just you... engagement strategy. Yeah, yeah. Yeah. It's, it's just like, I'm like, this is weird. Let's make it less weird, you know? [laughs] You know all about- Yeah... my life.

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[laughs] Yeah. Um, I also wanna, like, casually heart pictures of, like, your kids on their first day of school, right? Yeah. Um, so I do- Make it a two-way parasocial relationship. [laughs] Exa- exactly.

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That's exactly what I'm looking for in my life. Yeah. [laughs] Um, so, so yeah, that's... I, I don't know. That's, like, a very long answer to your question.

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I, I remember, like, Links was referenced in a Cut article about newsletters once. Mm.

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And they were making fun of the notion or, like, the conceit that newsletter writers, um, try to evoke this, like, fake friendliness with their readers. Mm. And that, I... That pissed me off so much.

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I was like, you don't know about me. You don't know how this newsletter started. I was writing to my friends, and like- Yeah... why should I change now, you know?

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Um, and that is the orientation I try to bring to it, generally speaking. I also just don't have the brain to be, like, more s- more strategic about it. I'm sure. It's- Yeah... probably coming across. [laughs] No, no.

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I mean, but it's, uh, it's the authenticity and, like, your voice in it that is, like, not, I don't know, contrived. Um, okay, talk a little bit about, like, the newsletter as a business.

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Uh, you said, I think this was... I'm gonna, I'm gonna reference this interview you did with Ethan Sawyer, his Human Pursuits newsletter, a few times. There's some great stuff in there.

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Uh, but I think it was in there that you said, um... Oh, no, this wasn't in that one, though I'm gonna come back to that later.

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At, three months after you did the relaunch, you said that you'd replaced roughly 40% of your previous local news salary with subscription revenue. Uh, that was now two months ago. Is it s- has it held steady?

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Has it gone up? Has it gone down? How are you... How is that going?It's over half now, I, I'm happy to say. Yeah. Yeah. Nice. Um, it's going great. That, I mean, that has been... I set the...

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I'm, you know, I told you I'm type A, so like I've had forecasts and like goals I need to meet, and I set the absolute minimum, um, for my own sanity, and so far like exceeding that, um- That's amazing...

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ha- has just been s- so gratifying and rewarding. Yeah. You said you, you had now half. People have been super generous. A little bit over half, yeah. Nice. Nice. Yeah, yeah. That's so cool.

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Um, is the subscription revenue the only way you're monetizing or... I, I don't think I've seen any ads or anything. Yeah. So I'm tiptoeing into ads. Um, I am working, um, on a sort of tentative trial basis- Mm...

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with an ad sales guy to see if that is a good vehicle for Links. Um, I think I'm gonna be extremely picky- Yeah... about ads, so that, so that might be difficult for me. But, um,

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yeah, I think it, it makes sense no matter what medium you're in to diversify your revenue streams, right? I know some people are making it work just off subscription or membership revenue- Yeah... and like God bless.

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Um, but yeah, again, I just came out of the local news industry. I wa- I want it to be as safe as possible. [laughs] Yeah. Okay.

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So this, th- this is something we have to talk about, the relationship between a creator and a journalist. Some of the people I talk to are like definitely more just creators or... Not even...

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That might be the wrong way to say it. Some people I talk to were never professional journalists. Others, um, you know, were, and it's kind of a strange relationship. What... Okay, how do you define creator?

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What is a creator, first off? And then I'll tell you my definition, but I wanna hear yours first. I feel like creator is a euphemism made up by tech companies- [laughs] Correct...

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for people who labor in service of their platforms. I hate the term creator. I do. [laughs] I mean- I don't use it if I, if I can avoid it.

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I, I- Um- In a, in much the same way you said, when I asked Ryan Broderick, he said, "A creator is an Uber driver for posts." [laughs] That's so good. Yeah. Um, that is absolutely correct. Yeah.

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The way, the way I've been defining it is basically like, uh, k-... I mean, yeah, it- it's slippery. It's, uh, too umbrella, whatever.

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But like the simplest way I've kind of landed on is like it's somebody who is producing content online, um, not nec- not for like an organization, for themselves, um, and with an eye to an audience beyond their immediate friends and family.

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So, I mean, that, uh, that was kind of a long way to say it. But just somebody who's creating content intending for it to reach an audience of people they don't know in real life, right? I, I think that's excellent.

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That sounds textbook to me.

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Okay, but the relationship between a creator and a journalist, I think one thing that I think about a lot between those two is that like journalists have, you know, w- codes of ethics and, like, ways of doing things where I think creators,

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uh, who don't come from that background don't. Um, and I think there's kind of this clash here too, which another part of it is like it's a cla-...

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In any creative industry, right, there's like the people who are good at creative stuff, the people who are good at business stuff, people who are good at both. Most people are not good at both, and I think,

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um, most people I talk to are better at the creative side than the business side, and this is kind of what you're coming up against here too. Uh, some other... I think this was when you were talking to Ethan Sawyer.

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You said something. Yeah. You said, "If I wanted to promote a brand, I would not have gone into public relations. I'm not like that. I'm just gonna do the thing, and people will either find it or they won't."

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Um, and I think this is the problem with, like, being an indie newsletterist or a creator, um, is that you butt up against this. So I don't know. How are you, like,

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g- breaking through that, like, journalist brain into, like... 'Cause you kinda have to, right? To, to make this sustainable, you have to, like, step into this side that you never intended to set into, yeah? Yes and no.

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I think... I mean, I think what I was probably attempting to get at in that quote with Ethan is that my approach is very much, like, conventional journalisticy. Yeah.

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I am not doing the things that would lead to the newsletter growing most quickly or, like, most reliably, right? I mean, sort of best practices are I should be all over new sub, like Substack notes. Yeah.

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I should be all over their new video features. I should be posting like TikTok summaries of my newsletter, like getting ready videos where I also talk about digital culture.

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Uh, Francis, you will never see me doing those things [laughs] ever- Look, I'm, I'm just saying... because they're not in my wheelhouse- I don't want to do that... and I'm not good at them. Yeah. Yeah.

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[laughs] And I don't wanna do it. So I know that there is this perceived tension between, quote-unquote, "content creators," um, and journalists. It's not tension I feel myself. Like, I, I- Mm...

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admire those people for what they do. I think what they do is work, and it is difficult, and it has an important role in the culture, um, in the information ecosystem. But it's not the same as what I do.

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Like, I don't feel I'm competing with them, right? Yeah. Um, you know, I just did this session, um, at the Online News Association conference- Yes... um, teaching people how to be, quote-unquote, "creator journalists."

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I... That was not my choice of term, right? I had three brilliant, excellent co-presenters, and creator, creator journalist was their term, right? And like I- Who, who were the, who were these other ones?

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Um, so it is my good friend Ryan Cullet, who is a Nieman fellow at Harvard right now, um, w- and Liz Kelly Nelson and Blair Hickman, who are both, um, former audience folks at Vox who are- Oh... consultants now.

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But, you know, I, I remember the first call with them kind of being like, "I don't, I don't call myself a creator journalist. I don't like this whole-" Yeah. [laughs] "...

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creator journalist."Um, but ultimately, like, we, uh, you know, are all powerless against larger trends in language, so [laughs] Yeah. But I s- I see myself as just being a journalist who ha- who has a newsletter.

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Like, the newsletter is a platform, it's not an identity, you know? Yes. Yeah. No, that makes complete sense. Uh, I wanna linger on this, the Online News Association conference for a little bit. Um, what...

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Like, what else was going on? What did you take... What was in the air? What were people talking about? Yeah, what'd you take away? Great question. Um, this will actually be the subject of today's newsletter- Oh, okay...

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so thank you for asking. Um, people were talking about AI a whole lot. Mm. Mm-hmm. A whole lot. Um, to an extent that I increasingly found comical and absurd. [laughs] Um, I was also acquainted... This is...

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And by the way, I'm telling you, like, the funny, silly things- Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah... out of the conference, not, not the substantive stuff. Please. Um, but journalists love free shit, right?

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[laughs] Probably more than any profession on earth. Yeah. So the swag was next level, but one item in particular was a must-have. People were obsessed with it. Yeah, your subscription to ChatGPT.

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I was like [laughs] Sorry. That was a joke. I don't know if that would've been better or worse. [laughs] It was a black canvas tote bag that said, "Media literacy is sexy." Uh-huh.

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And, um, it was being distributed by the first news-based dating app. Oh, wow. That's gonna be big in Park Slope. [laughs] It's only launched in DC, which tells you everything you need to know. [laughs] Yeah. Oh, my God.

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Did... Wait. Did the swag... Was, like, that the bag that the swag came in? No. Each of the vendors, like, distributed- Oh, okay... their swag individually.

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Um, but I talked to the founder of this app, 'cause I was like, "What? What in the world?" You know, I, I run a digital culture newsletter. Yeah. I wanna know about the news-based dating app.

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Um, and he told me that he went through hundreds of bags in the first day of the conference, and was overnighting more media literacy- Jesus... is sexy swag for $500. That's insane. Ridiculous. Well, we'll see if...

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I hope, I hope his app makes $500. Um, [laughs] but anyways. [laughs] Okay, going back to [laughs] your conversation with Ethan Sawyer. You said that your husband, Jason, was helping out with the newsletter.

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Is that still a thing? Like, what is... What are you delegating? No, I fired him. I [laughs] don't know if I told you that. [laughs] 'Cause he said it was on social.

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You, he was helping with social, which you recognize that you need to do, but you [laughs] really don't want to. Yeah. Yeah. And you know what? Um, I think Jason was struggling to keep up with it, too. Yeah.

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But [laughs] It's hard. It's really, it's really hard. It's hard. Yeah. It's hard.

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We've, like, sort of talked about, like, what is the threshold at which we would maybe consider bringing someone on, on, like, a couple hours a week basis? But I'm like, I'm, I'm not there yet. Like, um- Yeah...

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and as I said, I don't, I don't have this, uh, like, like, an appetite to expand be- beyond- Yeah... what I can do myself. Um- Well, wait. Okay, wait. And then- What, what are- Yeah... what are the ambitions?

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Like, w- do you have specific goals in terms of, like, an audience? Sounds like it's not, like, an audience size.

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I mean, it sounds like maybe monetization, it's like replacing that salary that you had at The Buffalo News. What are, what are the specific goals?

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And then, like, also maybe more long-term, fantastical, that would be nice dreams. Just... Yeah, so one of my co-presenters said this at our workshop on Saturday.

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She was quoting someone else, so I wish I remembered the original source. But, um, this person said, like, "You need to decide from the jump-" Mm... "if you are building a lifestyle or an empire." I thought- Yeah...

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that was such a good distinction. I am absolutely building a lifestyle. Um, I want to, you know, be comfortable, pay my mortgage, pay my bills.

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I want to be doing writing that feels intellectually and creatively fulfilling to me. Um, and you know, I wanna be able to, like, tr- travel a little bit or something, right? Yeah.

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But, like, beyond that, I'm good, right? [laughs] Yeah. I respect that. Yeah. Um, so I don't have, um... Like, there aren't audience numbers I need to hit to feel- Yeah... like I'm successful. I actually...

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So I, I do have KPIs. I don't know if I mentioned that interview with Ethan, but Jason is a project manager, so project management brain has filtered into my workflow. Yeah. Um, so

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my, like, quote-unquote, "key performance indicators" aren't just things like how many readers I have. It's how many weeks paid vacation did I take this year? Mm. Okay, that's good.

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Um, and it's things like, um, how many fr- like, not just any freelance assignment, but how many, like, interesting, fulfilling freelance assignments did I get off the newsletter this quarter? Yeah. Um,

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so I'm trying to look at this more holistically. Like, it's, it is not about, uh, like, money or, like, numbers to me. Like, it's- Well, so this, this reminds me-... more about ful- you know, fulfillment. Yeah, yeah.

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When I, when I talked to Kate Lindsay, uh, who, who runs Embedded, um, she, she was very, she very explicitly told me how much money she's making doing this. She's, I think she's the only person who's ever done that.

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But she was like, "Well, I make anywhere between 1,500 to $3,000 a month through subscriptions." But, like, for her, it's like, like, it's a calling card for, yeah, for freelance gigs.

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I've talked to people too who, like, they made a newsletter as a way of breaking into a field.

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Like, this woman, Arielle Nissenblatt, she wanted to get into podcasting, so she started a newsletter where she, like, uh, you know, round up like five podcast episodes every week.

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And then now she, like, works at Descript as in, like, podcast community there.

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So it's like, I think that to me is, like, almost a more sustainable story, like, for the mass of people, for the majority of people who, like, want to have a newsletter.It was whatever that means, right?

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I think like- Yeah...

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it being a br- a brick in a larger wall of your life is, like, more sustainable than, like, and more realistic than, like, I wanna have a media em- only a few people are gonna get to that media empire level, right?

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Absolutely. I mean, it goes back to the whole theory of, like, 100 true fans or 1,000- Yeah... true fans. Do you remember that? Yeah. It's like a- Maybe it's 1,000, it's like $10 each... Wired article in the '90s. Yeah.

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Exactly. So it's like, uh, many people can build, like, a comfortable middle class lifestyle off of a small audience. Yes. Um, so- Bring back... really you're just running to trouble when you have bigger. [laughs] Yeah.

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[laughs] Yeah. Yeah, bring back, you know, industry to towns like Buffalo [laughs] with good middle class industrial newsletter jobs. Um, okay. I mean, you're not wrong though. Like- I'm, yeah...

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in Buffalo, if you wanna work in journalism, your options are The Buffalo News, which just announced yesterday they're cutting five more staff newsroom jobs. Which that's where you were before.

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But where is, like, it's having... That's where I was before. Um, or, or you write for, for, um, yourself. Like, there are- Yeah... no... Or, or you're on TV, but that's like a whole ga- different game entirely.

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Yeah, that's a whole nother thing. Right? Like, there is no alternative media here. There are no independent media here. So this style of working is extremely powerful for people who live- Yeah...

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in parts of the country like this, which is most of the country. Yeah. Right? Yeah. You don't have to live in a, in a big city to, to do newsletter. Um, how much time do you spend on it each week?

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And then, well, two, well, actually two part. How much time do you think you're spending and what percentage of that is, like, the writing and the research versus more admin type of stuff? Yeah.

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So I'm actually quite a slow writer- Mm-hmm... um, to my own detriment. So I probably spend two entire work, probably two and a half work days just writing- Mm-hmm...

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the newsletter, researching and writing the newsletter, and then it's probably an additional half day, um, doing admin stuff- Okay... like you said. Yeah. Yeah, yeah. Sustainable.

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And then I teach twice a week, so- Yeah... that's, that's a week. [laughs] And then sometimes some freelance articles. Exactly. Yeah. Yep. Those, those are your weeks when I don't sleep a lot. Yeah.

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[laughs] Um, okay, let's talk about growing the audience for just a little bit. So, uh, o- and one more quote from your [laughs] interview with Ethan.

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You said, uh, "There would be months when I would only have, like, a dozen or two dozen new subscribers, but in the past couple months there's been steep growth. It's so random that it seems almost accidental.

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You're at the whims of the internet and the Substack algorithm. Uh, none of it is merit-based. I really want to emphasize that. Substack is not a meritocracy." Um, lot to get into there.

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First, in as much as your growth hasn't been accidental and random, where have people found you? Like, how, where, where are these 23,000 people coming from?

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Yeah, so again, I'm like, when I tell you the sources, they are accidental and random. Yeah. [laughs] Um, so it's often media mentions, right? Mm-hmm.

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So, like, I know in the last week I saw a, a, a really nice jump because Links was featured in a Verge newsletter- Mm-hmm...

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and because I freelanced a story for the Wall Street Journal that named Links in the byline, right? Mm-hmm. Nice. Um, a couple of weeks before that, Links was in, um, a Financial Times roundup of all places.

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Thank you, Financial Times. I did not know we shared an audience. [laughs] Um, uh, I have a v- very, very kind reader who's a columnist at The Guardian. She occasionally ref- references Links.

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I always see a big jump after that. Um, but these are, like, not things I could engineer. Yeah. Right? Um, maybe with the exception with the Wall Street Journal. I did- Maybe if you had that at PR... say that.

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I put, I put Links in my bio. Yeah.

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[laughs] Um, but, like, generally speaking, I don't even know the people at these outlets are reading the newsletter until, uh, like, someone forwards a screenshot to me, and I'm like, "Awesome, today, you know, today's a great day."

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Um- Yeah... so that has been a source of a lot of growth. Um, you know, speaking of Rusty Foster, when he, um, took a break from Today in Tabs, his phenomenal daily newsletter, um, to hike the Appalachian Trail, he

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very generously recommended that people- Wow... um, look to Links as a replacement. Um, so I saw- Yeah, there was, there was like just a few he included, yeah... a lot of traffic from that. That's awesome. Yeah.

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Um, it was really, really kind.

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It's actually, like, an extraordinary testament to his relationship with his audience, and I have done some, like, reflecting on this, but I saw a ton of people sign up for paid annual subscriptions sight unseen- Mm-hmm...

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and their comment would be, "Rusty recommended you." Like, "I'll read anything Rusty tells me to." And I'm like, "Goddamn." [laughs] Awesome.

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So well- Um- Okay, so that actually, um, I wanna comment on another thing you... A, a, a term I've seen you use a couple times in Links where you, w- which is just the newsletter community.

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Uh, and this seems like kind... I wanted to ask you, like, what that is, but you're kind of describing it right here.

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It's like these other writers who have been doing it for a long time and, like, have this, uh, journalistic integrity and, like, trust with their audience. What...

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Talk to me about this, like, newsletter community because it sounds like that's where, it's this mutual thing where your growth comes, where your audience comes from.

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Yeah, I can't claim to have any, like, huge visibility into the space writ large, especially as it, like, expands in a more- Yeah... and more cavernous way at all times.

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But, like, my little corner of the newsletter community, uh, such as it exists, is so kind and free of ego and, um, generous with

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support and, you know, cross links and things like that. I don't-I don't think I have ever approached another newsletter writer for, like, advice or help with something- Yeah...

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or vice versa, that someone has approached me and that I or have turned them down or that they have turned me down, right? I think, um,

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it's frankly very different from journalism, which can be quite sharp-elbowed and quite- Yeah... competitive. I think there is an understanding that the pie is large enough for all of us.

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Um, it's really kind of like a shine theory thing, like you succeed, I succeed. Um, which is frankly like a beautiful way to work. [laughs] Yeah. So the... I mean, that has been really nice.

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Again, that's my corner of it. Is, is that what everyone is like or like everywhere?

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I don't know, but the folks I've interacted with have, have always been ve- very, very kind and very interested in each other's success. Yeah. No, that's, that's really nice.

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Um, inasmuch as you have a content calendar and you're, like, planning what you're writing about months in advance, what is that? Do you...

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Are you planning these things out or is it like, I know, I know what I'm gonna write about next month, but not in six month- Yeah. How are you planning your editorial slate?

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So I'm so glad we talked today and not, like, last week- [laughs]... because I just did my [laughs] calendar for the rest- Congratulations... of the year. Oh, wow. Um, earlier, earlier this year. Yeah.

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So there was, um... Generally speaking, I try to have rough plans for two months out. Um, but inevitably, like, things happen that falls apart, right? So like, I just did this big Gamergate series. Mm. Yeah.

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It was, you know, four weeks, like, a- almost a month, and that took up so much of my mental energy, and I had other freelance things going on that I had nothing planned for the end of the Gamergate series, right? Yeah.

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So, like, the end of the series came and I'm just, "How's it?" You know? Yeah. Um, so it was very important to me to, like, actually get a calendar together and know what I'm doing for the next couple months.

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Um, I just do that in g- in Google Sheets. I don't have, like, a fancy, um, editorial tool or anything like that. Um- No ClickUp around here or whatever. No. Why don't you... What is that?

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[laughs] I don't even know what that is. [laughs] No, you don't need to know. You don't need to know. [laughs] Um, no, it's all good. We, we are very much a, a Google household. You- It's in the, it's in the name...

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you know, I had my, my Chromebook technical troubles. Yeah. [laughs] Yeah, G Chat in the names. Um, so yeah, it's... I just plan it out in Google Sheets.

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Um, inevitably it will change as things come up, but I find that that's a good time span.

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You know, kind of see, like, what's coming down the pike in terms of, like, what books are coming out that, like, their authors might be good guests- Mm...

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for, like, a links interview or, um, you know, are there any tentpole events or, like, holidays or anything that I might wanna plan content around. So, God, I hate hearing myself use the term content.

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I do not like the term content- Yeah... but it is also filtered in my subconscious like everyone else's. Yeah. Um- Well, that's the, that's the one- But yeah, so I just-... we swim in... Right. The swamp. Yeah.

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[laughs] There we go. If you can swim on the swamp. Um- I guess you wade... yeah, so that's where I'm at. How far- [laughs] How far in advance do you plan out? Um, next question. It's... I need to get better at that.

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[laughs] No. It's, it's... I sometimes I have, like, a month of interviews scheduled. Um, sometimes I'm like, I'm, I'm not as caught up and it's like, like, so this interview will come out in two weeks, so not...

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So two weeks from Friday. Um, I need to get, I need to get much better at that. It's like... Yeah. Anyways, [laughs] next question. No, uh, I think- It's hard... so the problem with me, too...

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Yeah, 'cause with me, too, it's like I want to... Like, it's fully interview based, and I wanna interview people who have different sto- Like, I try to...

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My, my, my mantra that I don't always stick to is, like, consistent but not predictable, right? So I want people who, like, are coming from different backgrounds.

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Like, I'm gonna talk to you, so maybe next week I wanna talk to somebody who's more of, like, a hustle creator type. You know, somebody who has, like, a huge audience, somebody who has a small...

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So, um, that's really hard 'cause I have, also have to do the outreach to the people and get them to agree to an interview, and then schedule it, but you don't wanna be scheduled too far in advance.

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So basically, it's a pro- I need to do what you did yesterday or whatever and sit down and, like- Yeah... plan the rest of the year and, like... Yeah. Uh, not as far in advance as I'd like.

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But so speaking of books really quickly, I did look at your Goodreads because you link it on your personal website. Oh, Lord. [laughs] It's, it's right there at the footer of your personal website. Um- [laughs]...

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but, uh, oh, no, we're gonna be very erudite here. Um, uh, like a month ago you- I'm like, shit, what's the last book I read? [laughs] No, no.

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No, a month ago you read a book that a friend of mine, my old boss actually, had recommended to me and I'd love to hear a little bit more about. It's called... I'll read the full title for the listeners.

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It is Black Pill: How I Witnessed the Darkest Corners of the Internet Come to Life, Poison Society, and Capture American Politics. It's by Elle Reeve. Uh, so a little break from talking about the newsletter.

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W- tell me about this book. Should I read it? What's the vibe? It's a phenomenal book. I'm actually... I'm like, do I have it on my desk? I think I've shelved it by now.

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Um, so I read that book and I interviewed Elle for the newsletter. Yeah. Um, she... I don't know how familiar you are with her work. I find her to be, like, journalistically like an interview savant, right? Mm-hmm. She

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can get information out of people that is in no way in their best interest to reveal. Like, it, it's just fascinating to watch her work and, and of course- Yeah...

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most of her work is as a video journalist, so you, you can watch her work. She's on camera. Um, so this book was about all of the reporting that she has done on the rise of the alt-right. Mm-hmm. Um,

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and again, for reasons that would, like, be unclear to your standard observer, a lot of these guys have, like, really gotten close with her and, like, really spilled their guts to her. Yeah.

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[laughs] For like, um, though it is not in their best interest. So I thought it was a fascinating book. I thought it's... I, I mean, it's dark. It's not like- Yeah... a fun-Read. You get that from the title, right?

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I mean, I'm, I'm currently reading John Ganz's When the Clock Broke, uh, the, The Rise of Con Men in the '90s America, whatever it is. And yeah, anyways, so. It's very... This might be up your alley. Yeah.

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It helped unify a lot of threads for me. Um, but I, like, at the end of the day, it was most interesting to me because, like, as a journalist, I'm, I'm interested in other people's technique. Yeah.

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And some of the things she said about her interview technique, I was like, "This is wild. This is a crazy thing to read about." Yeah. Yeah. Damn, I need to get into that.

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Um, okay, I guess we should go back to the newsletter for a second. I wanna talk about Substack as, like, an ecosystem for a second. The way...

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So I didn't start thinking about this until, like, I started thinking more about the newsletter ecosystem at the beginning of this year. Um, I just thought of it as, like, another tool for newsletters like any other.

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But I feel like with the introducing the social media tools, et cetera, and, like, with the funding mo- With the, with the w- their business model where they, like, take a cut of paid subscriptions,

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I feel like Substack is almost more of a media company and a magazine, the Uber for posts, than it is like, like, you know, Beehiiv, Ghost, Mailchimp, any of these other tools.

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Like, that's a tool, whereas Substack, you are almost, like, an Uber driver style, not even a freelancer, but an Uber driver style writer for this media company. Does that... Do you agree with that? Does that make sense?

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[laughs] Like, is this a pitch for Beehiiv? [laughs] Well, in a, in a way, yes, it is, uh, ultimately. But, but I don't know. Like, that's... Does that make sense, or am I just, like, you know, Beehiiv pilled over here?

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No, you, you are absolutely correct. I am continuously disappointed and annoyed by the changes that Substack is making to their core products. Yeah. I think

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they very transparently want... I mean, the, the whole model of newsletters is that you own your audience, right? Yeah.

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And Substack very obviously wants to claw as much of that audience as they can away from you and into their standalone app, where now they're layering all these other social features in. Um- Yeah.

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And then they're pay- And then that audience is paying for other people's newsletters. So yeah. Exactly. I, I think it is a betrayal of the core promise of Substack. Yeah.

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Um, I think it is to the detriment of people who primarily are there to write. Mm-hmm. Which was, again, their original promise.

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Um, and it's something that I, I think, you know, long-term, for me, makes me question if, if I'm gonna be on that platform forever. Yeah.

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Um, but for better or worse, Substack does also offer some, some features and some benefits- Mm... that are very compelling, um, some of which do have to do with that ecosystem that they're building.

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Well, I think- Right?

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If I can interject for a second, I think part of it is, like, what I understand about them, like, whereas, you know, a Beehiiv, et cetera, is, like, a publishing tool and more purely a publishing tool, it's like you ha- you have, you're just creating a product, though, that you really then have to think about going out and marketing.

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Like, yeah, there's growth tools there as well, but, like, Substack is, like, more aggressively pushing, you know, one newsletter audience into another.

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Um, so, like, I, I see the appeal for somebody like you who comes from, like, the more journalistic background and doesn't wanna think of it as, like, content and doesn't wanna think of, like, the strategy and, like, you know, your readers as audience.

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It's then appealing to, like, not have to think about that, and they kind of, like, run the business for you, and you are...

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Like, it's, again, it's the Uber model, where, like, you don't have to think about, like, finding somebody to, like, give you a call when they need a taxi, right? Like, it's... That's, that's the appeal. Yeah.

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And, and you're exactly right. Like, that works for me now in, like, the stage of growth that I'm at and the capacity that I have. I mean, when, you know, knock on wood, if and when- Mm-hmm...

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I'm able to replace my full prior salary with Substack, and we can talk about, like, maybe even beyond that, like- You'll be, you'll be well beyond it by this time next year. That's [laughs] Anyways.

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You know, from your mouth to God's ears. Yeah. [laughs] I was... Um, it... Sh- should I get to that point where I can maybe afford to hire, like, a freelancer to help out- Yeah...

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with some things around the edges, okay, well, then s- like, there's no incentive for me to stay on Substack anymore.

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But right now, when it's taking up all my time just to write the damn thing, like, I d- I do not have the capacity to also write the Instagrams. Yeah. I'm just on Instagram to like people's dog photos, right? So wait.

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Um- So this is something my, like, the co-host of the other podcast I do, Daisy, who runs Dirt, uh, we are... By the time this comes out, this episode will have been, already been out. So listener, go listen to it.

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It's out. But, uh, next week, we're planning on talking about, um, reinventing the magazine. This is kind of a topic that she wants to talk about.

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But I think it's very relevant to what we're talking about here, where, like, I think for many indie newsletterists, whatever, people trying to, like, make it in this, in this way, it's like, are...

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Do you have to reinvent the magazine? Like, do you have to, like, partner up with, like, other writers and, like, you know, pool resources for distribution, pool audience, pool, like, you know, subscription revenue?

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Um, 'cause that, again, I think, like, in a way, that's what Substack is at a large, larger scale.

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Uh, but yeah, I think this flow of, like, indie to, like, wait, actually, should we organize again, um, which could be in an indie way, like, with any of these, with Beehiiv, with Ghost, what- whatever.

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404 Media is a great example of this on Ghost. I like them a lot. Um, yeah, I don't know.

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Is it just the pendulum going towards reinventing the magazine, and magazine just meaning, like, an organization of both creatives and business people? That's interesting.

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I guess my, like, my gut feeling when I hear you say reinventing the magazine is like, well, the glory of magazines was that they were so, like, glossy and hi-fi. Yeah.

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And what we're talking about now is-I'm probably butchering- It's just very much not that, right?

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[laughs] I'm butchering it probably in the way that Daisy meant, 'cause I'm, I- I'll talk to her about it next week on our podcast, and I'll figure out what she means.

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But, what I mean, w- I mean, probably she means more that glossy bit. But yeah, just the like the pooling of resources. I don't know. Yeah, I think you're onto something. I mean, I, I was just...

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I was talking to several other newsletter creators when I was at ONA, and you tend to hear the same things over and over again. I mean, like, the number one thing is that, is that this is lonely. Yeah.

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Is that you miss having colleagues, you miss having a community, um- Somebody to like push you, criticize you, edit your work. Exactly. Exactly. Mm-hmm.

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Um, so I wouldn't be surprised to see the rise of sort of newsletter collectives- Mm-hmm... or more, more formalized arrangements, whether social or business, you know- Yeah... um, between newsletters in the future.

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Just because, I mean, as newsletters mature and people kind of grow out of like, "This is a fun thing I did for the coup- a couple years, now it's my whole career.

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Okay, well now I need to put the infrastructure in place that I like feel good doing this all the time" Yeah. And inevitably that involves working with other humans, right? Yeah. Um- For most people. Yeah.

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For many people. Yeah. [laughs] Or, you know, AI agents. Uh, I don't, we don't [laughs] have to go there. Oh, no. [laughs] I don't wanna go there. Yeah, that was a joke. That was a joke.

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Um, okay, I, I only have a couple more questions though. One, so there's so many aggregation newsletters now. I, i- it's... I mean, the, the, these publishing tools becoming more accessible have given rise to that.

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You are one of the more enduring aggregation newsletters. I don't know. I think

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it's hard to like do this style of newsletter in a way that like is actually interesting and valuable to people, as opposed to like, "Hmm, what did I read this morning?

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Let me put the best three links in a news- in a newsletter and send it out to people." Like, people maybe aren't gonna care. There's too many of them. I don't know.

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How, like, for you, it's like this is like the art of curating link. Not that that's all. You write the essays too, et cetera. But this art of like curating links, the craft of curating links.

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You've got this RSS feed that you've been working on for like a decade. Inasmuch as like you can make something like this good and not just like a self-indulgent,

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you know, thing that nobody wants to read, like how do you... What are you thinking about when you're selecting these links? Like, how... I don't know. What's the cr- the craft of making an aggregation newsletter? Yeah.

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I think it, I mean, it probably varies. But for me, I mean, I do encounter a lot of the newsletters of the type you're describing, that it's like, "Here's what I read this week." Yeah.

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Um, and I'm like, I actu- I, I have no interest in like what you, you read this- Where's the thread? I, I don't mean you personally. [laughs] Yeah. No, it's okay. It's like I- I read crap.

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[laughs] Because I don't know- [laughs] I'm joking... I don't know like what your news diet is, and I don't know- Yeah... what your preferences are and things like that.

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I mean, my approach, like what I hope differentiates my approach is that I'm like extremely rigorous and comprehensive in the news that I consume. Um, it is...

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I- it's just about like every mainstream outlet in the US, Canada, and the UK that you can think of. Mm-hmm. Like plus [laughs] dozens- How many hours are you spending reading every day?...

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and dozens of newsletters and tech outlets. That would be difficult to quantify. Um- Is it like wake up, coffee, uh, you know, you're reading for three hours, and then you write? No, it's not...

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So I spend a lot of time g- with, I say like going through the feeds. Yeah. Which is, is m- you know, like that's just headlines. So like I spend a lot of hours doing that. Um, in terms of what I actually read,

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it's probably like eight hours or so a week. I'm a pretty fast reader. Yeah. I'm a very slow writer, but I'm a fast reader. That's like a c- I see that. If, if I was slow at both, this would never work.

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[laughs] Um, absolutely never work. So, so yeah. Like, I don't... It's called Links I Would Gchat You If We Were Friends, but it's like it's not necessarily- There's not that many... my personal taste. Yeah. Yeah. Um,

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like it's, it is based on like a rigorous survey of the news landscape. Um- Yeah... and I think that differentiates it from like, "Here's a funny thing I saw on Twitter," and I'm like, that's haphazard and algorithmic.

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Yeah. And is it the best thing out there? I don't know, 'cause I don't know that you read everything that's out there. And like that's the gap I'm trying to fill.

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I don't know if that answered your question, but- No, that definitely, that definitely does. Um, okay, so you...

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We, we touched a little bit on this earlier, but you used to write a column, I think this was at the Post, called What Was Fake on the Internet This Week, and you did it for 82 weeks straight.

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And on the occasion of the final column, so in December 2015, you wrote, uh, "Since then," referring to when you started, um, "these sorts of rumors and pranks haven't slowed down, exactly, but the pace and tenor of fake news has changed.

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Where debunking an internet fake once involved some research, it's now often as simple as clicking around for an About or Disclaimer page." Uh, which then brought to mind...

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You wrote these words like a decade ago, right? But in, I think quite a bit has changed. A lot has, you know, stayed the same. Uh, introduction of AI slop is one of those things that has definitely changed.

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Max Read had a great, uh, article about it in New York Mag today, I think in Intelligencer. Anyways, um, could that column exist today? W- like, why or why not? Or what would you have to change about it? Absolutely not.

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You know why that column couldn't exist today? Because it no longer matters if you tell people what's fake and what's real. Uh-huh. I mean, that, that, that's the reality, right? Yeah.

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Um, so I, I was at this really interesting... Really interesting is overselling it. [laughs] It was very technical and like sometimes esoteric- You were interested...

328
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um, panel at, at ONA where they were talking about like all these technologies that exist now that like embed in the metadata of a photo the origins of that photo, right?

329
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So this technology exists, and it, and it is present already. It is in our cameras and our phones in many cases already.

330
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Um, that can tell you whether a photo is real or fake.But to some extent, it doesn't even matter because when people wanna believe a photo, um, is real when it's not, it-

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it- if th- there's no authority that can tell them, "Oh, the metadata says this," that they'll believe. Yeah. Right? Um, and I think we were-- I was starting to get that, uh, towards the end of that column.

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You know, we've had many, many studies show that debunking misinformation often just makes people believe it more strongly- Yeah... than they did before the debunk. "Oh, you have an agenda. This is, this is real."

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Like I could debunk- Exactly... your agenda too. Yeah. Exactly. So I mean, like frankly, I feel bad for people who are employed full-time as fact-checkers. [laughs] Um, God- Yeah...

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especially leading up to the election because the work that they're doing is so important and also s- just like possibly so irrelevant. I don't know. Like, but, you know, as...

335
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I'm not sure that's changing hearts and mind- and that's true on the right and the left, right? Mm-hmm. Um, so that column [laughs] sounds fantastically naive now- [laughs]... and for good reason.

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It could not po- it could not possibly exist, right? Yeah. Um, and unfortunately, I don't think we've come up with like a good solution to addressing that, certainly not from the news media side.

337
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Um, just a little depressing. Yeah. Well, you know, that's why we have tote bags that say, "Media literacy is sexy." [laughs] Um, yeah.

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Well, that ad was pitched to me as like a solution to misinformation, and I was- What? I was, I was kinda like, "I don't- Don't know about that... I don't think... I don't know if you know a lot about misinformation."

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[laughs] Yeah. [laughs] All right. Well, I don't have any more questions. Is there anything we should have touched on, that you wanna touch on before we go? No, this, this was amazingly and terrifyingly thorough.

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[laughs] Look, you know, that's, that's exactly what I wanna hear. Um, where should people go to find your work? Uh, well, naturally, please go to Lengths. It is lengthswouldgchatyou.substack.com.

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Go and sign up for a paid subscription so she can replace that Buffalo News salary. We'll get there by the end of the year, knock on wood. [laughs] I'm knocking on wood.

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I don't know if you can hear it in the, in the audio. But, uh, anyways, yeah, this has been the Creator Spotlight podcast. I have been Francis Zear, and our guest today has been Caitlin Dewey. I'll see you next week.

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Thank you. [outro music]