Welcome back to the Creator Spotlight podcast. Today's guest is Andrew Huang. Andrew is a lifelong musician and a creator economy pioneer.
Andrew is best known for his YouTube channel, where he's built up an audience of two point three six million subscribers over the years. And among his many pursuits, he just published his first book last month.
This book is how I found him, and it's called Make Your Own Rules. I really enjoyed speaking with Andrew, and I hope you enjoy our conversation. Thank you for listening.
To start, give me the little intro for our listeners. Who is Andrew Huang? Well, I am a musician primarily, but I've become most known for making videos about music, uh, which is kind of a funny thing.
Um, but yeah, I'm just a, a very musically interested person. I explore music from a lot of angles, whether it's, um, showing people theory or weird instruments or ways to create songs or produce songs.
And then I'm also interested in making musical tools, like I made an app, I made a plugin, I made a guitar pedal, things like that. Um, I write a lot of my own stuff.
I write with other people, uh, occasionally produce for other people. So, um-- Oh, and I, I produce for commercials sometimes.
So, uh, you know, big mix of different musical creative stuff, and, um, yeah, YouTube is sort of something that I started to take advantage of, uh, pretty early on in the grand scheme of things as a way to, uh, build my brand and get my ideas out there, and it ended up taking off, so that's, uh, sort of the, the main thing that I am now, I think, to, to a lot of people, is a musical YouTube creator.
Yeah. No, I, I was talking to a friend too about, um, I'm interviewing this guy, and he was, uh, he was like, "Oh, I've, I've heard of him. I love his educational content."
My-- This is a friend who, like, makes music with synths as a hobby and stuff. He was like, "Every time I look up a new synth, Andrew has, you know, the video that, that teaches me how to use it or whatever."
Um, but yeah, I-- So one thing that I'm personally really interested in is just, like, the concept of what is a creator, as I've, you know, come into the editorship of Creator Spotlight.
It's a question I have an answer to but, like, am constantly grappling with. Uh, I'd love to hear how you define the word creator, and then I'll share mine. We can talk about it.
Yeah, I guess it's a, a catch-all in a lot of ways to me. I don't know if I have a particularly concrete definition of it, but, uh, it feels
to me like it's as broad as just encapsulating anybody who might be [chuckles] posting something that they've made online. Uh, certainly, you know, it could apply to offline people as well, but, uh, I think it's
just be-become that phrase that we've needed as everything has started to be on the internet. You know, it's, uh, differentiates itself, I guess, from a company that is creating and posting things. Um, but
yeah, I mean, there, there's so many, like, overlaps with, um, for instance, the term influencer, let's say, which might not apply to all creators or, or different people might think that it applies to different people.
Um, and, uh, yeah, and then, you know, I could also just as easily call myself a musician who puts some things online.
But, uh, yeah, there's, uh, you know, with everything becoming content now, it's such a, um, strange time to, uh, you know, really be able to, like, s- make these kinds of labels work, I think. [chuckles] Yeah.
Which the word content too is, like, hand in hand and, like, not just as content creator, but I think both of them are-- kind of have this flattening effect.
Um, uh, so my definition of creator that I've been operating under, at least for, like, the purposes of, like, who do I talk to and how do I, you know,
frame, frame what they tell me and write about them, uh, is threefold, and it's like I think these rules are in order of importance, where number one is they're creating content and posting it online consistently, and that online aspect is crucial to my definition.
Number two is there's no mediator between them and the audience.
There's no, like-- You know, a journalist might post content online every day, but if there's an editor at The New York Times editing your work or whatever, I don't think you're a creator.
It has to have that, like, direct audience-creator connection.
And then number three is monetizing, which could be in a way as simple as, like, ad revenue, brand partnerships, courses, or, like, much more vague, you know, like helping your career or whatever.
A definition of creator that I was picking up from your book is, like, the way-- The type of person your book is talking to is maybe a creative, maybe they're creating content online, but they don't really know much about business, or they, like, are afraid to professionalize or, you know, it's something maybe they haven't explored, and not necessarily, like, it's useful to anybody at any stage of that journey.
But there was one passage in particular, um-- Or there's a few where you're, like, talking about the process of, like, oh, plan, make a schedule, you know, do these things, and it's like you're just-- you're teaching things that, like, I have learned at jobs, like working.
I-- In my last job, I was a content marketer, and I was like, "This is just what I learned at the job," and like, I don't know.
I, I'm not sure if the question-- I guess the question there is, like, is that what a creator is in one way, is, like, a professionalized creative who distributes work online independently?
Yeah, I think for, you know, most cases, that probably fits.
I think the book spoke a bit more broadly because, um, I, I guess I wanted to speak to artists, which is maybe another word with a lot of overlaps with creator. And, um,
yeah, I think, uh, the, the type of person that I imagine getting a lot out of this book is maybe someone who is either earlier on in their journey or, uh, at least earlier on in the part of, you know, sharing it, publicizing it, trying to, uh, build an audience with it.
And so, yeah, I mean, I might call someone an artist or a creator if they have not finished or put out any work, but they're, uh, exploring it and they're, you know, learning. And, um-Yeah.
So, so that, that's where I might expand creator to include, uh, you know, amateurs and hobbyists. Um,
I also wanted to say it's interesting you brought up journalists because, yeah, I, I feel like we wouldn't consider that type of profession, uh, you know, to fall under the label of creator.
But it's funny how in today's day and age, you know, I follow a lot of journalists on X and, uh- Mm-hmm...
you know, they do have ways that they monetize outside of the publications that they write for, and they do in a way, um, you know, have personal brands.
And in, in s- I think a lot of the times w- with how I engage with online media, I'm seeing more of their personal writings or just- Mm-hmm... their tweets than maybe, you know, reading entire articles by them.
And so, uh, it, it is a funny gray spot there- Yeah... I think in, in many fields. No, I think, I think actually that's where it gets... Yeah, I mean, obviously there's so much gray areas.
And I think creator is like, you know, squares and rectangles. Creator is a rectangle word, and then, like, there's all these different types of squares maybe.
Um, but with the journalist thing, it's like, yeah, once a journalist has a Substack where there is no mediated connection between them and their audience, then they're a creator in that capacity, I think.
But, uh, anyway, so we could talk about this probably for [chuckles] the full hour. Uh, I do wanna get into your work for a little bit.
Your audience, you have, like, 2.3 million followers on YouTube and about 3 million total across platforms, and I think one thing that's really notable about you is, like, you really stick to YouTube for the most part.
Like, your other pop...
And you talk about this in the book how you started doing some TikTok stuff, but, like, it was just much, it was much more trouble than it's worth and kind of sucked and, you know, another algorithm to chain yourself to in whatever way.
Um, so I wanna talk about, like, why you have decided to just be so platform specific instead of, you know, trying to wring every piece of juice out of every other platform.
What do you-- what does that do for you to just be a YouTuber? Yeah. I think that, um,
i- in part it's about what I am interested in creating and the b- both, like, what it's like behind the scenes, what it is like to create, say, short form content versus long form content, or in-depth content versus surface level content.
And then it's also about, um, what that final product is and what it can do for people. Um,
in, in some ways it maybe is about the monetization possibilities as well, although that is sort of, uh, a nice byproduct, that it is maybe more profitable to be on YouTube, uh, for the same amount of work, let's say, um, to kinda simplify things.
But, uh, you know, I w- I, I was interested in doing YouTube before I knew how all of this stuff would be able to be monetized. And I think, um,
another part of it is just that I realized, and I, and I remember very clearly when I had this realization.
It was actually a friend of mine, Ariel Bissett, who has a, uh, YouTube channel about literature and authors and books.
Um, and she-- I can't remember which platform it was, but she was basically saying, like, "You don't have to be on every platform."
And, you know, at the time I was, uh, a few years earlier in my creator career, and I was thinking, like, "Well, you really-- you gotta be firing on all cylinders," you know? Like,
if, if a new platform is really popping, it makes so much sense to be on there. You'll reach new people. There will be less competition in the early days, all that kind of stuff.
And then it was so kind of, um, [chuckles] shocking and simple for her to say, uh, that she's just so fine to commit to some platforms and, and, like, block others from her life.
And it felt like, uh, that just made a lot of sense. And it's, um, I think,
you know, very true that you can have, uh, advantages by spreading yourself out on a lot of platforms but also, of course, you know, with finite time and resources, maybe it's better to put what you have into, uh, a, more of a focal point.
Yeah. No, that makes sense.
Um, another thing on, like, kind of your long-term content journey, uh, is, you know, and you talk about this in the book, how you used to really just focus on, on more entertainment and, like, you know, Songs to Wear Pants To, these commissions, et cetera.
And then now you've really come around to the education, and that is what brings you, you know, a lot of joy and such. Um, and I think, like, I, I, I really respect that.
And, like, obviously you're a really talented person who has so much to share and all this experience to stand on.
I do think, though, that, like, courses as a creator channel or, like, monetization channel are kind of used and abused by a lot of people. Um, and again, not by you, but I don't know.
I, I guess, like, if you have any opinions on, like, when, when should, when should a creator not, like, try to monetize through a course?
Or, like, for somebody who's out there, you know, navigating this world of courses, like, what do you look out for? Like, I don't know.
It's just such a fraught thing that you do well, but-- and you offer so much free education on your YouTube too, but, uh, I don't know. It's, it's just, like, a thorny genre of creator monetization.
Do you have any thoughts on that? It's a great question.
I think that, uh, when I'm looking for courses that I might take, and I've done a handful of online courses, I definitely look at the, uh, creator, uh, and the platform a bit, that some, some platforms feel like they have a bit of curation that, um, you know, hopefully means that the, their courses are of higher quality.
But, uh, definitely the courses I've taken I think have all been from creators who are quite well known or that I have followed for a long time.
Um, and I do get advertised these courses from random people who I don't know anything about. [chuckles] And, you know, if I do a little bit of digging, it doesn't seem to turn up much.
I feel like that, that is sort of a red flag. Um-I look at very salesy funnels as a red flag.
I feel like it should be possible for someone's, uh, work and credentials to speak for themselves, and, you know, hopefully they are also a good communicator because, you know, doing an online course may be something different from what their primary focus or talent is.
But, um, yeah, I think there-- those are some of the ways that, uh, I would kind of suss out whether I think something would be, um, of value. Um,
and for creators themselves, you know, deciding if, if they want to pursue that as, uh, one of their revenue streams, I think it's a, a very open-ended and flexible, uh, type of offering.
Like, it, it can be fairly small, it can be very niche, very focused on a ve- a specific thing. Like, there are entire courses about, like, one synthesizer. I've done some of those.
And then there's also, like, my course is a very broad, you know, learn how to write and record and produce your own original music kind of thing.
And so I think maybe taking into account, like, what you feel, um, able to speak on with authority, but also able to pull off, um, you know, in a way that, uh, will be of value for, uh, the people who might be interested in taking it.
Yeah. When did you, when did you start offering courses? Like, 'cause I mean, I would-- I peg you as, like, starting kind of your creator career, let's say, when you were, like, 19, right?
I think that's how you placed it in the book- Mm-hmm... when you started doing the eBay stuff.
So, like, how long did you wait before-- And I guess, like, earlier on, like, back in your eBay days, there wasn't such course infrastructure as there is now.
But yeah, when did you-- At what point in your journey did you start feeling like it was time to do courses? And do you think it was, like, you could have done it earlier? Or, yeah, why, why then?
I think I could have done it earlier. I was definitely thinking about it for
maybe three to five years before I, I had the opportunity to do one, and I had always, um, thought that, uh, it would be possible and it would be a great thing, uh, because of the type of creator I am, where I'm already focused on educational, uh, material.
Um, and it was just something that I knew would be such a large project that I couldn't, uh, s- set aside enough time to do it on my own.
And so I was very lucky that at this, uh, startup, uh, called nowstudio.com, at the time it was called Monthly, um, the-- I had a, a big fan who was one of the founders of this startup and, uh, he reached out and he was like, "We want you to be one of our first courses and, uh, to be our first music course."
So that
came with a lot of support from them, um, in terms of, like, knowing how to structure a course well, in terms of being able to, uh, advertise it, and, uh, they also gave me an advance, which made me feel comfortable to, like, take a few months off to really focus on making the course.
Um, so I don't know if or when it would've happened without that stroke of fortune. Um, and I will say it, it was a huge help. I think that
creating a course, even for someone like me who has done educational content, creating a course and knowing how to structure it, um, and how to lead students through it and pace it well and what information they'll need and what additional resources you can provide, all of that stuff, um, and all of the, like, promotional side of things and the, the whole platform, um, the webpage, all this stuff is, is, uh, a lot to take on for, for an independent creator.
So it was amazing to be able to have, uh, the help of a, a platform like that. So in the book, you talk a bit about the idea of, like, just doing it, right?
And personally, I kinda believe that there's so much advice to, to be given and all the things, but, like, it really just comes down to, like, figuring out a starting point and then just going and not stopping.
And, like, in the going, you learn a-- you learn the specific things. Um, so I don't know. I'd, I'd love to ta- for you to talk...
And you're also, like, such an ideas guy, and you talk about how, like, uh, you know, you're talented at coming up with ideas, and you had your 10 ideas a day thing, et cetera. Um, so I don't know.
I'm curious about just how you would suggest people just get started, 'cause I think so many people have that fear of getting started, again, something you talk about. Um, I don't know.
If, if somebody's afraid of just starting, what do they do? Yeah.
I think, um, yeah, definitely starting no matter what is the key, and, and you will just find what is right for you as you try things and, and find the things that are wrong.
Um, so almost any starting point will, [chuckles] will give you some information about the, the, the path that you could be taking. Um,
and I would also say that, uh, that fear or sense of uncomfortableness is actually a great sign. Um, this is something that had occurred to me later I should've included in the book.
I feel like this is a, [chuckles] a, a point that I love making, which is that when you're uncomfortable some- with something, it usually means that y- there's something in there that you should be doing.
Like, that's why you're uncomfortable about it. Like, if you're-- If you know that you can nail something or if you already know that it's not right for you, that's not uncomfortable, you know?
You're, y- you're, you're sure of that.
And so when you have that uneasiness where, like, "Oh, I wanna do this, but I might fail," or, like, all, all those kinds of things, tho- that's, like, almost like a good thing because that's like a beacon for you to say, "Oh, I should be,
you know, moving in that direction." Um, and I find that true of, you know, both large and small.
Like, from day to day, the thing that I most dread doing, whatever it is on my to-do list, is usually the most important one.
And so I, you know, I, I really think you can, um, like, extrapolate that out to the larger, like, directional, existential questions of your life. Yeah.
I wanna talk about-The idea of like working in different mediums for a second.
And we were talking about that earlier with like you pretty much stick to YouTube and don't, you know, like sap your time working on other platforms. But the book is like such a different thing.
And I think even the idea of writing a book of a, you know, somebody who creates content on the internet writing a book about creating content on the internet where things change all the time and, you know, the, the goalposts are always moving, et cetera, is kind of a funny idea, right?
'Cause it's like in 10 years will the things you talk about still be relevant?
Um, obviously they will 'cause you're not talking about like platform rules, you're talking about creating and like making a, you know, ta- applying business practices to being a creative and a creator.
Um, but yeah, I wanna talk about just like what kind of challenge it was for you writing the book and like what was... How long did it take? Were you writing it? Did you have a ghostwriter, like or just an editor?
What... Yeah, just the process of writing the book and like the challenges that were unique to that. Yeah. Um,
I have wanted to write a book for a long time because I have felt like many of my ideas could be expressed better like this than, um, you know, in, in the usual ways that I create.
Um, and it was again a situation where I was so lucky. I had a fan at Simon & Schuster, and, uh, she reached out and asked if I'd be interested in writing anything.
And as we talked, this, uh, concept sort of materialized of, uh, m- my book, Make Your Own Rules, which kind of uses my life as, um...
It, it, it tells my story in a way where I can pull lessons out for people that are hopefully much more broadly applicable. And, um,
it was a goal of mine to make it more timeless than just like a, here's how to be good at YouTube, here's how to be good at Instagram, um, because I have seen enough of those kinds of books where, you know, the information is just out of date in five years or maybe even by the time it's printed.
And, uh, I felt that I had a lot to share that was, um, you know, it was really just about media. It was about reaching people. It was about, um, you know, your relationship with yourself as an artist. Mm-hmm.
These kinds of things that I think are much more timeless. And, um, yeah, the, the book itself, uh, took about two years from that first conversation with this, um, editor at Simon & Schuster until it came out.
And, uh, it wasn't, you know, writing the whole time. It was kind of fits and bursts. And, um,
it was me writing everything, but, uh, my editor was amazing for being able to help organize my thoughts and, and structure things and, and, you know,
understand when a reader might not, uh, be understanding the context I was trying to set up or, um, might, you know, where a prompt might be useful to get the reader more engaged in thinking about how, uh, the material could apply to their own life.
And then I think it was especially, um, because this person N- Natasha, um, had been a fan of mine for a few years that she really knew my work.
And, um, I could tell from also speaking with some other people who were involved in the process at Simon & Schuster, but, you know, people who were just like, "Oh, yeah, I work at Simon & Schuster.
I help with a bunch of books all the time," uh, these people didn't know me at all, and their input, while it was, you know, helpful, it was much more surface level.
And so I think it, it made a huge difference having this, you know, again, lucky situation where someone who, uh,
knew my work intimately was able to help kind of like walk me through how to share about it and myself on a deeper level. Yeah. No, that's awesome. Two, two questions actually coming out of that.
So it was obviously the most like single block of writing you've ever done, though you, um... obviously writing's are also part of your practice for like writing the video titles and et cetera.
And you talk about this in the book. You give like really great writing and copywriting advice in a few places.
Um, and I, I don't know, I'm, I'm curious like what it taught you about writing and, and storytelling if, if you brought any of that back to the work you do in your, you know, your normal work. Um, yeah.
What did you, what did you learn about writing and storytelling by d- through doing it? That's a great question. I think, um, I, I, I've done a fair amount of storytelling within my videos. I, I think...
I, I, I, I, I don't know if I learned a ton about storytelling exactly because it was,
it was just a kind of a new way to do some of the things that I had already figured out how to do like, you know, setting up a hook and, and, you know, like closing the gaps that you open and, and, um, you know, giving people that payoff or knowing where you want to, um,
build some anticipation, things like that. I think those kinds of, uh, things are so connected to all different kinds of mediums. You know, they happen in video making, they happen in music writing. Um,
so yeah, that, that part was-- it was fun to be able to play with. Like I loved ending a chapter on a bit of a, a question or a cliffhanger, that kind of thing. Um, but, uh,
it, it was definitely cool to get to know this kind of, uh, deeper writing process, you know?
Like I'm a, a big journaler and I write lyrics, but doing something where you're like really trying to structure big ideas and, and trying to, in some places in the book at least, uh, create a compelling argument for a certain point of view, um,
it was, uh, you know, definitely challenging but also enjoyable and, and I guess I got to know what it was like to b- be comfortable with like really rough drafts, while at the same time be surprised by some of the things that were just fine on the first, uh, pass.
Like, I guess, you know, not having any-...
experience as an author, I pictured a lot of editing being like this line by line thing, um, with a, just a lot of massaging of the text, which of course happened in parts of it, but then there would be other times where it was like, oh, this whole like three pages just needed like a little grammar correction somewhere, and then it, it like [chuckles] sailed all the way through to the final product.
So it's, it's interesting that sometimes, you know, you just get a really lucid thought down or, or some ideas are simpler to communicate, and other times you're really kind of like trying things out and, and adjusting the amount of detail or the phrasing or the pacing or all these kinds of things to really nail it.
And, uh, it's never exactly predictable when those will be. What kind of advice would you give people about like bringing people into your process when you are the brand?
At this point, I recommend people do it as early as possible. Um, you know, hopefully y- you are not an awful judge of character because, you know, [chuckles] you can, you can...
In- involving the wrong people, uh, which I've only done kind of to, to small amounts on individual projects, you know, I, I think we can all imagine how that can, um, make things worse. But, um, i- it's been
very consistent with me with, with finding people that I can delegate things to or collaborate with, finding people who are much stronger than me in certain areas. It's only made things easier or better. And, um,
yeah, I think that... I, I wanted to be very transparent about that in the book because I think it's easy to kind of look at
anyone out there who is, you know, doing a thing that's interesting to you, anyone you're following, anyone who's successful, um, that it seems like it's just them. And, uh,
you know, the, you know, like Beyoncé is just [chuckles] writing songs, recording them, putting it out in the world. But of course, you know, in, in her case, there's like hundreds of people around her to help support.
And I think that, uh, it's just something
z- so important for any creator, um, as they're growing, like for their mental health and for the quality of what they're creating, um, and the opportunities that they will be able to take.
Uh, yeah, I, I, I don't know, it, you know, it's probably unique to every person which ways they can expand best or first, but, um, it's, it's definitely worth considering and exploring, I think, from as early as you feel, uh, you're able.
Like I think I said this in the book, like before even like upgrading any gear or anything like that, if I could start all, all again- Mm-hmm...
I would like fr- get the bare minimum and then see who I could work with, uh, rather than trying to do so much on my own. Yeah. Which, which was good advice.
Um, and I, I wrote down this quote k- uh, around the same area, maybe the same page. Um, it's on, what is it? Page 253. You said, "As a creator, I'm always working with a finite resource, myself."
And then down the page you say, "I fully accept the fact that there's a certain size my business and audience can't grow beyond if I wanna continue to do what's authentic to me."
And that made me think of like a term to describe that, which is like the authenticity ceiling.
Um, and I always think like when people are, you know, when, when you hire a social person to work on your brand, which anyone who's operating at a level like you does, you know.
Um, and you talk about this and how it was like you kind of grappled with revealing that and talking about that.
How do you navigate like the edge of that authenticity s- uh, ceiling and like get your, yourself out there without, you know, the figment painting, the pigment fading too much? Yeah.
Well, first of all, I love that term and that paint analogy. Um, I feel like, yeah, authenticity ceiling will become something that I use. Um,
I, yeah, I think that, you know, I personally just feel like compelled, almost like a responsibility to be authentic. Um, and I'm sure, you know,
it, it has roots somewhere in the way that I, I grew up and, uh, my priorities there.
But like I, I think almost to a fault sometimes I'm wanting to pull the curtain back and be transparent with my audience, be like, "Look, I'm just like a guy. I'm making stuff. I'm putting it online.
Like, that's all it is. And it's, it, there's nothing like magical or elevated necessarily about it because we can all pretty much access these kinds of tools." Um, and yeah.
So I think for me, I ju- I just get this kind of like, uh, what's the word? I, I'm like repelled by the idea of certain kinds of, um, I don't know, expansion, I guess.
Certain ways that maybe I could, you know, have someone else write a bunch of my posts or my music or video scripts or something for me.
Um, I think there's areas of those things where help is possible, but if it ends up that, you know, I'm not the one kind of taking the lead or...
It, it, it just ends up feeling to me like, I guess [chuckles] a big part of it is it, it just feels less fun. It feels like, well, [chuckles] I, I, I'm almost just doing like the work parts of it.
I mean, maybe it's nice that I get the credit or whatever, but- Mm-hmm... I'm also just gonna like walk in, read the script, and then leave. But, you know, for me, the, the process is so important.
Like, I want to be figuring out the, the video pacing. I want to be figuring out like the wording of the idea that I'm gonna communicate.
I obviously love writing music, and I wanna write my own music rather than be able to put out twice as many songs because I hired someone to also write songs for me.
So I think, yeah, there's just something about me that can't, um... You know, it almost... I'll say this.
In terms of like-Making music with other people and the way that credit is sometimes handled or, or like obscured, it feels very strange to me, and it's almost like, you know, this, this is a bit of a heavy-headed way to say it maybe, but it's almost like a matter of justice in terms of like if you get a ghostwriter, it--
I almost feel like that shouldn't be allowed. Like it feels wrong, um, and I, I don't know how exactly to like, you know, where, where we land with that, how we grapple with that. Yeah.
But, um, it's something that I can't like really bring myself to do. I wo- you know, I'd rather make it a collaboration even if it- Yeah... is someone who like doesn't have a following or whatever. No.
I, I really respect that about you, and you're talking about like maybe it's the way you grow- uh, grew up, et cetera.
And like I grew up on a small organic farm and like, you know, at one point my dad went and worked on, you know, a bigger, more corpy, kind of like built a new farm for like a bigger farming company, and he quit after a year because he hated it.
And so I'm-- it's kind of instilled in me that like, you know, certain types-- okay, certain types of companies scale, software companies scale, et cetera. There's all these things.
But like not everything should scale, and I think it's like obviously capitalism, et cetera. You gotta make a living. You wanna have more and more money, et cetera. So that's, so that's what scale is about.
You try to scale a business to make more money. But I think it's like core to your brand that it is like you talk about the process, and it is about you. And like I-- yeah, you're right.
There is this sense of justice where you like shouldn't scale that.
But something you touched on I wanna go back to is this idea about like your s- responsibility to your audience because I think that like, you know, it's like, it's like how you talk about, um, even if you think you're not doing branding, you are.
It's, it's the same thing with like, oh, if you don't vote for something, you are voting by not vo- uh, et cetera. That kind of, that kind of thing.
Um, I think that creators generally have a responsibility to their audiences, and it obviously varies from person to person.
But yeah, I'd love to hear you talk about how you conceptualize your responsibility to your audience. Yeah. I think that, um, the, you know, there's a responsibility to be authentic, I guess, is the main thing.
And, uh, you know, I, I was about to say honest, which I, you know, I, I do believe, but I also immediately thought of my Space Time project where, you know, I think there, there is a role in the world for satire.
And so,
y- you know, again, we're, we're in kind of another gray area where maybe like a work is meant to, uh, you know, y- you take on a character or you deliberately push against a line because, uh, that is the most effective way you feel you can make a statement, these kinds of things.
Um, but, uh, yeah, I think there's a responsibility, um, for honesty and authenticity. I mean, like for instance, disclosing sponsored relationships. Um, I think that
as I have, you know, been online for 20 years and posted a, a whole variety of things, I've started to feel a responsibility to be positive, um, which I think some people kind of like associate that with my brand.
Um, but I, I mean it more as like, um, I, I've seen so many times, whether it's something I posted or something someone else posted, where the
repercussions, the way that it makes viewers or readers feel is not worth whatever, um, you know, perhaps authentic thing you may have wanted to express in a moment. Um, and so I think I've,
I, I've thought about that more and more as I've gotten older, I guess, or as I've done more different kinds of posting.
Like thinking about, you know, in my response to something or the way that I choose to present something, these will have, um, effects and maybe I do not want to be
the kind of person who i- I mean, just to take a very simple example, like the kind of person who's gonna be a downer.
Like if there's some pop culture thing that happens and I post like this negative hot take on it, I mean, great for engagement, but... And, and even if it is my genuine opinion, like maybe it's not worth sharing.
Maybe it doesn't need to be out there. Maybe, you know, other people don't also need to feel my ire or whatever.
[chuckles] So I, I think about that, I think maybe as a, a big part of, uh, uh, the responsibility that a, a public figure might have. Yeah. No. That, that's good.
That last bit you said too reminded me of like the idea of restaurant r- reviews. Like I think it's-- I have this-- to me, it's common knowl- uh, common sense.
Like you don't wanna review a restaurant, go on Yelp, Google reviews, whatever. If, if you had like a terrible meal, you don't review them.
You only review them if you had a great meal because it's like you don't wanna, you know, push this small business down or whatever. And y- I don't know. It's good to put positive stuff out in the world.
I wanna go back to Space Time for a second, though. Uh- Mm-hmm... I was really interested when I was reading about it.
I hadn't watched it, and then I watched some of it this morning, and I watched the, um, the, the li- the one with liftoff, which I, that song, I really like that song.
I watched the, um, a couple more in the middle, and I watched the last two. Uh, and it's... I mean, it's amazing. It's like this visionary produced thing.
And like you were talking about being honest, like there's nothing dishonest about it.
It's just like I, I, I was surprised when you, when you said that people like actually thought you went to space, which is like a question of media literacy and like other things.
But anyways, it-- I, I just kinda wanna ramble about Space Time for a bit. The way you were talking about it made me think of like classic rock operas, right?
Which are like so frequently like critically misaligned or misunderstood at the time, and then cult following later, and like there's the social commentary.
And I was like, I just love what you did with like the fake apology video, the fake I'm retiring video, and this like social media commentary.
And again, it's like there's so much to unpack and-I think it's just like a rock opera. Um, so I don't know. I just wa- it-- I just wanna talk about that for a second. What, what was like your vision?
What was the commentary aspect? How-- like looking back on it now, 'cause I don't know how, actually how long ago that was. Um, yeah, tell me about what it was like. 2021? Uh, yeah. Actually, it was either 2020 or 2021.
Um, yeah. But, uh, I think i-it was, it was so fun to do, and I would absolutely do it all over again.
I think if I did do it all over again, I might try to find ways that I could, um, like make some of the commentary more obvious.
Some of it already to me felt like it was really on the nose, but I think the, uh, otherworldliness of the project overshadowed that.
And so, um, yeah, I think finding ways for-- to drive home those points about like the performative nature of social media and, um, just kind of like poking fun of all these tropes that we have. Um, I think, uh,
yeah, it, it's, it's something that I needed to explore, and, um, I wish that aspect of it would've landed better.
But I think a lot of the rest of it did go as well as I hoped, like, uh, for, for the maybe, I don't know, half, say, of my regular audience who really loved it. I think it was something special that, um,
you know, kind of opened up some minds about what online content could be that hopefully was inspiring and, um, yeah, it was just something that I wanted to try to...
I, I, I think I do this in, in my music much more than my videos, but, um, you-- creating new formats, you know, creating things where when people experience them, they're like, "Oh, I, I didn't know a song could be like this.
I didn't know a video or a series, um, or, or like a combined multiple platform thing could work like this." Um, so that was, uh, a, a big part of what compelled me to take it on. Yeah.
Which is what you're all about, experimental formats. Um, yeah, so audience, and it was interesting like t-thinking about how, you know, you said like about half of your audience got it, about half didn't maybe.
Um, and when you have 2 million plus people in your audience, like that's gonna happen, right? So, uh, I want to ask like what do you know about your audience, and how have you gained those knowl- that knowledge?
Like can you describe in, you know, one sentence who is your audience, or is it too complicated? I don't know that I could describe the folks in my audience in one sentence because it's,
uh, I mean, in some ways it's changed over the years. I think some people have grown with me, but also the types of content I've done over the years have attracted different types of people.
But I've always been pleasantly surprised at the diversity in my audience. You know, there are like 10-year-old kids, and there are 60-year-old people, and there are all races.
And, um, definitely with-- when, when the music technology started to come into play, uh, it started to skew a little more male, which, you know, there's a whole-- a bunch of issues that [chuckles] we could get into on that side of things.
But, um, it's, it's always been like lots of different people.
Um, every once in a while I, you know, I'll, I'll ask on social media about what people's other interests or jobs are, things like that, and there are like neuroscientists and gardeners and painters and students and, um,
you know, dentists. Like [chuckles] it's just all different kinds of people, and I love that. And I guess, um...
And, and, and something that surprised me, one time when I did one of these polls, half of the people said that they didn't make music themselves, so they're just people who either they're fans of my music or they're interested in what music is like to create.
And so, um, yeah, that, that was interesting to me that it's just people who, you know, have some interest in music, um, even though I think a, a lot of my content is so, uh, musician-focused. Mm-hmm.
But, um, yeah, yeah. Yeah. A big range of people. I, um, in my last newsletter, I ran a poll like do you consider yourself a creator? Yes, no, I don't know.
And only, only half the people said yes, uh, which, which kind of shocked me. Um- Mm. Next question.
I know that you're not as focused on growth anymore and like kind of a luxury, you've got all these other-- you've got a big audience already. You, you, you, you put that time in.
Um, but when you were more focused on growth, what were a couple of the things that worked the, the best that like, you know, somebody listening to this could apply to grow their audience today?
I think, um, I would say earlier on, you throw a lot of things out there.
Try many different formats, any different thing that you can think of that you feel interested to create, um, and that will show you what people respond to.
Um, and then you can, uh, you know, go further with the, the things that are driving a higher response. And then
kind of, uh, from the flip side of that, after you've been posting for a while, looking back and seeing what's performed best over time, um, 'cause some things do have longer tails than others.
Um, and, you know, hopefully all of this is driven by what you're already interested and passionate about creating. Mm.
I think sometimes when I talk about this, um, I, I get the sense that people feel it's about like only doing like the highly profitable, marketable, whatever things.
Um, and my perspective on it is more like you've got your, you know, cloud of 1,000 cool things that you might wanna do already, and what are the specific ones or what are the ways that you can execute them that are going to be, um, interesting for other people if growth is, um, an aim of yours?
Um-And, uh, yeah, I, I guess another thing, a very simple concrete tip is just asking people to do whatever it is that you wanna do, um, which, you know, some people-- like, simple example, you can, like, post your album art and be like, "My song's out now."
Um, but it will be more effective if you're like, "Stream my song. Here's the link." Or, you know, the-- all those kinds of things. Ask people to follow, ask people to subscribe.
I'm amazed still for myself how many times that works, where I get to the end of the video and I'm like, "Man, I really enjoy this. This is a brand-new creator I've discovered."
If, if they hadn't said subscribe, I would've completely forgotten, I would've clicked to something else- Yeah... and never seen them again. So, um, yeah, just tell people what to do.
[chuckles] You gotta, you gotta spell it out sometimes. [chuckles] Yeah. Yeah. Um, one thing I liked- Yeah... is I liked how you had these, the, the pie charts of the six seasons of kind of your income.
Um, and I'd love to hear a little bit more about, like, what this-- if, like, if you're still in season six, as it were, or if, you know, a new season is developing, uh, what's-- what are you-- what's, what are you most excited about?
What's most important in your income right now as a creator?
I guess I'm still sort of in season six, where, um, the kind of bigger products that I've created, like my course and, and the plugin, um, those are doing really well. Um, and s- uh,
I think, you know, I'm definitely continuing with wanting to make more music tools. Um, they're, they're just so fun to, to work with, and they, they feel like a way that I can, um...
You know, like my, my videos are all about education and hopefully empowering people to create, and I think that if-- when I make a really great tool, that is something that will, you know, save a bunch of people time or inspire a lot of people in their actual process, which I think is really cool.
Um, and y- to answer about where things are going, it's kind of murky, but I'm-- basically, I'm trying to find w-what ways of working or what formats of content will work if I am going to try to spend even more of my time focusing on just music rather than thinking about, um, what the most viral video idea will be or, like, trying to have a social post once per day or whatever.
So if I can, like, chill on that and, um,
spend even less of my time editing, um, you know, th-these kinds of things and just as much of my time as I can on just, like, writing and producing songs, what is it gonna be like, and will it work at all to just, I don't know, have a bunch of people filming me at certain times or have, like, a one button, all my cameras are on and I just do whatever I do for a full day and terabytes of data are generated or I, I don't know.
So that, that's kind of, like, where my mindset is, but it- Yeah... I don't have answers yet. [chuckles] That's the big bro- big brother style. Um- Yeah... one question.
You don't have to answer this if you're not comfortable with it, but I'm curious from your, all your, like, commercial partnerships you've done and, like, commercial commissions, is there one that was, like, the most lucrative or the most fun?
Can you share, like, a favorite or, like, best deal you ever got? Best sync, as it were? Um, there were a couple that were, um...
I guess when I think of, like, the most lucrative ones, they were, like, a little bit above the others, and they were just because of the, uh...
Like, so one was for the Google Chromebook, and, uh, it was also a fun, fun video to do. They brought me to LA, and I kind of, like, went around the city to record things with the Chromebook and, and make music that way.
Um, I think the one that comes to mind as feeling like the coolest, though, was the one I did for Volvo, which, which was also, like, a, a, a pretty good paycheck, but it was-- it felt cool to do a car commercial, I guess.
Um, I think Volvo is a, a great car brand, but also the way that we did it just felt like I got to create a piece of music that I just genuinely love aside from how it was made or what it was for.
'Cause they j- they gave me a bunch of, like, dance-y, electro, banger-type of things, and they were like, "Could you, you know, make something that goes this hard but with, like, sounds from a Volvo?"
And, uh, I-- me and my friend Keely, who I brought on to, uh, to be part of it, was, um... Yeah, she was, she was great to work with, and we, we came up with this really fun track.
So that, that one has a, you know, stands out to me. Yeah. Yeah. No, that's sick.
The, the Google, the Google one made me laugh because, uh, you know, you've got your story, and I watched the video as well, about turning down the YouTube job, and I have to imagine that the, the commission for that probably, maybe not, maybe it didn't equal what that yearly salary would've been at YouTube, but it probably approached that.
So you, you got that money out of Google anyways. [chuckles] If you were 19 now, I can't imagine that you'd be, you know, selling song commissions on eBay. What would you be doing?
That's a great question, and I think, um, you know, I maybe would've taken the Fiverr approach to that same idea. Um, a-another thing I can imagine is that I, I recently worked with this guy, Tom McGovern.
Uh, he's been blowing up on TikTok and Instagram the last couple years. And, uh, it was funny, when we first connected and kinda like traded stories, he
had a very similar story to mine, but it was like a modern age version of it, where he was posting, uh, these Reels and TikToks where he was making original songs, and he started taking requests, and then people started paying him to make specific things for them.
And I wonder if that might have been a similar path that I would've taken, because I loved that, like, the, the strangeness of, like, connecting with someone you've never met before on a different part of the planet and writing a song about their life or whatever.
Um, yeah, I, I, I wonder if it might have gone down that way. [chuckles] Yeah, probably. I might have to, might have to interview him after this. That could be a good, a good follow-up. Oh, yeah. That'd be great.
Um, okay. Before I, before I cut the recording, now's your chance to plug the book and tell people where to find you. Yes. So Make Your Own Rules!
is the title of my book, and it's, um, available at andrewhuang.com/book or all the usual book retailers, audiobook platforms.
And, uh, yeah, if you, uh, wanna find me on YouTube, just type in my name, Andrew Huang, H-U-A-N-G. Nice