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Welcome back to the Creator Spotlight podcast. My guest today is Peter Ramsey, who runs Built for Mars, which is a UX-focused consultancy and content library.

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Uh, Peter started it sort of by accident in 2018 after the company he'd started at university was acquired.

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Uh, he started helping out friends with their projects in his spare time, and now he's consulted for companies like Notion, Barna, and Stripe, to drop just a few names.

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And on the public content side, he's written around seventy case studies and counting on everything from how Domino's uses dark patterns to overcharge for pizza to why HBO Max is the worst-rated streaming service.

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Uh, so Peter, is there anything you'd like to add to that about who you are and what you do? No, that was great. I, I wish you could follow me around. I always have to introduce what I do, and that was way better.

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Well, you could pay me- Yeah... you could pay me, and I'll, I'll follow you around. I-- Well, I listened to a lot of, uh, a few podcasts. You did a lot of podcasts, like, three years ago.

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We'll get into that, but, uh, so you said kind of the same thing on all of them. So I, I, I wanted to do you the service of, uh, not making you, you know, retread those same footsteps again and again. I appreciate that.

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First, though, what motivates you on a creative level? Like, what excites you to make things? I mean, at-- So at the moment, I, I-- Like, I've always wanted to create stuff, right?

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So, like, I guess creating stuff- True... is quite interesting. Where, where I'm at now with, like, content creation for the UX, it's-- I, like, really enjoy, um, you know... The stuff I'm doing is not rocket science.

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In fact, like, a good friend s-said, said to me the other day, because someone can write a book about UX,

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not that I'm writing a book, but, like, you know, a blog about UX, it means that the curve of, like, you know, discovery is already quite well gone. Mm-hmm.

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So, you know, someone like me can come and take stuff that smarter people have, like, researched or worked out, connect the dots, and just, like, contextualize it in a way that makes people understand the thing they've been using for years and go like, "Ah, I get it."

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Yeah. Like, "That makes a little bit of sense now." So, you know, I'm not-- I don't do any TikToks. I really find social media hard. Like, I'm so boring.

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Um, I've got no interest in, you know, having, like, a, a famous brand or face, you know, to me. But I enjoy creating stuff that makes people think about...

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You know, like, one of the comments on one of my recent articles was I did the UX of sending parcels- Mm-hmm... right? Where I sent, like, Weetabix cereal biscuits around, like, around through many different...

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And one of the, like, the top comment was, "I don't know how you did it, but you made the most boring topic interesting." Yeah. Cool. And I was like, "No one else is gonna read that." Yeah.

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And I found that, you know, that's what I enjoy about creating. Yeah. I guess, I guess we should say, like, a little quickly, like, describe what you do more specifically. So, like, I... You're like an elucidator, right?

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Like, you, like, you story tell. You're a storyteller about, like, how things work, mostly software, but again, these systems, like you're saying, like sending parcels.

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Um, so my understanding, like, how I'd describe what you do is, like, you do really heavily researched, like... You called yourself, like, a software stuntman, um, in an, in an older interview, which I like.

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You go through the motions of the thing, um, and you, like, te- you prod at all the steps and, you know, how many clicks do you have to take, how long does this thing take. You're like...

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But then you, you're really good at, like, storytelling these data points into essentially, like, decks, presentations. Um, but that's what you do, I guess. Would you add anything else to that? Yeah. Okay. So let me...

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Yeah, I can, I can add some flavor to that. So- That's what you should do... um, '20-- [laughs] By 2019, I, I'd been consulting for two years since leaving my startup. I didn't have any testimonials- Mm-hmm... right?

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And I had a few companies I could say I'd worked with, but every new client I got from a consulting angle would say, "Can I see some of your work?" And I'd say, "It's under NDA. I can't." Mm. And so I was literally...

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One day I was just-- I had, like, a s- a spare day, and I was like, "I'm just gonna publish one of, one of the things I do I'm gonna publish, and then I c- I've got something to show future consulting clients." So

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i- it's kind of spiraled from then into especially now transitioning more into the creation side of things. The storytelling aspect and the, like, software stuntman- Mm... was more a case of,

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you know, everybody has signed, everybody has used Airbnb. So if I look at Airbnb and I can't find any massive problems, is there an interesting story I can explain with that? A-and the answer is no.

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I've tried Airbnb quite a lot. But I've signed-- I'm a real Uber driver, right? Yes. I-- Like, I've, I've done real Uber drives just to get the screens of what it's like to be an Uber driver.

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Um, you know, I've got a bunch of other stuff in the works that have been in the works for, like, years because I just cannot finish them because one of the competitors has either, like, stopped me or I've found that I cannot complete a certain thing that I need.

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So, you know, I've got a list of thi- and, and I've got a list of ideas, but the reason why that is important is because it needs to from a creator aspect have the kind of like,

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I don't want to say clickbait because nothing- Mm... is clickbait of what I do, at least I hope it's not. No, I-- Well, I think clickbait's a dirty word. But it needs that angle.

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Like, I-- This is something I've been thinking about, like, with my newsletter subject lines. It's like, it's not-- You, you need somebody to click, right? So it's not... Like, the,

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the bait part, I guess, is the dirty word. Like, it's not clickbait if you, like, deliver on the promise, which you do. Yeah. Yeah.

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Like, as an example, I-- you know, one of the things I would love to do is get, like, the ten most popular cars and do a r- like, a review and a comparison of their infotainment systems.

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The reason why that's so difficult is because getting screenshots of the dashboards is quite hard. Yeah, that's a few. Like, in high enough quality that the- Yeah.

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It's-- Well, th- so aside from the cost, because I do invest a lot of time, like, I would, I would pay to rent those cars, but, like, renting a LamborghiniBecause I've tried, doesn't have a good UX.

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It's like not a good experience. Yeah. You just basically phone someone up and then pay a lot of money. Yeah.

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And so it's like that doesn't create a good story, but if there was an app that I could rent a yacht and then handle everything about the yacht, that would make a really good MrBeast style UX story. Yeah. Right?

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Wait, okay, wait, real quick. I wouldn't be able to rent like a- You another time, you did describe yourself as like MrBeast for what you do. Mm-hmm. This was like three years ago, uh, which I laughed at- Yeah...

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when you said that.

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But it's, I think it's apt in like, in what you're saying, where it's like you go through these motions so rigorously in the way that like MrBeast will like build a like building with like all these things in it for a 20-minute video and spend a million dollars on it.

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It's like, which is- Yeah... so you were saying like the scale of effort you put in for this highly digestible- Well-... piece of content, right?

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I want to caveat that, which is MrBeast five years ago before he had money and he- Mm-hmm. Yeah... put time into stuff, not... Like, 'cause I don't have, I can't afford to buy, rent a yacht, right? Yeah.

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But like, that, that's not what I'm saying. But I can s- I, when I put the time in, I would do something, put the time in to do something outlandish.

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Like, one of the things I tried and I've tr- I keeps, it keeps not working, is I want to take a flight with every airline. Oh, wow. Right?

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And the, there is some serious logistical problems, and I first started trying to do that in COVID, um, and that was even more challenging. And so that's one, uh- Where would you...

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Wait, wait, where would even be the destina- 'cause you'd have to standardize the destination, right? Right. So where would that go? Where would that be? Good question.

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How do you do American Airlines as a UK citizen- Yeah... and have the same experience? You know, so there are like technical problem.

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Like, I can't Built From Mars is at a scale where I can't compare American Airlines to like British Airways and be like, "Look how much BA...

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Look how much better BA is," and then, you know, and be like, "Yeah, but you're a UK citizen. You're going into America with no return journey. That's why they stopped you. That's why it took so long.

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That's why you got a different queue." [laughs] So, like all of those things make that logistically really challenging. Mm-hmm. The Uber one, I had al- I'm also a Deliveroo rider, right?

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So Deliveroo is like an Uber, like, you know, another one. Deliveroo too. But that never saw the light of day because it, it, A, wasn't interesting, and B, I think I'd been flagged on a system, right?

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And so like I got a different experience through that. And so I'm, especially when I do fintech stuff- Like they knew you were sleuthing... I'm not sure.

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I'm not sure if there's a database of people who are already registered for this kind of like, 'cause you have to get certain DBA checks and things. Mm-hmm. Um, you know, with banks I signed up to like 12 bank...

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I actually signed up to like 20 banks. Yeah. A lot of the banks I signed up to, by the time I'm s- I'm trying to take out my like 10th loan, I'm just getting rejected. I can't then go, "Oh, look how bad this bank is.

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It, you know, the loan journey sucks." 'Cause I know for a fact that that is a different journey than if I had done the order differently. Yeah. Um, I don't know where I was going with that, but that's why- Well, okay.

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No, no, well this-... like the MrBeast example- Yeah... is like the effort that goes into these things. Yeah. Which makes sense.

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Um, I do want to talk about the, the bank thing, uh, 'cause a- as I understand it, that's kind of like, you know, the case study that put the wind in the Built From Mars sails, um, the gas in the rocket ship, whatever, um, case study that launched a thousand...

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Anyways, [laughs] okay, so I think it was 2020 this bank study came out, and um, right around that ti- like right after that when I was researching you, there's like all these podcasts you were on.

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You start like, you know, become a correspondent for TechCrunch, et cetera. All these things kind of start happening.

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It's kind of you diving headfirst into this like, let's call it, you know, creator version of, of what you do, putting content out there online publicly. Um,

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tell me, I don't, we, we don't need to rehash the bank study thing. Like, basically, as I understand, it's like 12 or 20 I think you just said, uh, banks.

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You went through all these processes, and you got pretty quickly like 6 million views because it's not just like interesting to UX types and fintech types- Yeah... though it's highly interesting to those types.

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Um, it's also just like really useful as a consumer 'cause you, definitely nobody else in the world had ever done a study of like, well, which, which bank should I use? You've got the answers.

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So, um, I think that's kinda what you did there. Uh, tell me about the aftermath of posting that and like what you were doing before in terms of putting content out, and then how that, how that changed. Yeah.

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Yeah, I mean, people had done it before, right? So like they were always dry and boring. Mm-hmm.

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And there are companies that exist that sell these, that they do like annual reports for banks, and they sell them for like, I don't, I'm just making this number up, two grand, right, per company.

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'Cause like a big bank wants to pay to understand what other banks are doing, and it, it's a big business, and- Mm-hmm... it's entirely dry and, you know, indigestible for like the average consumer.

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So the day I posted that I still thought it was gonna suck, right? And my friend who had like really recommended, he like really pushed me into doing it, you know, he was saying, "No, it's really good."

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A- and I was like, I honestly was like, "This is terrible," like no one's gonna care. Um, but what happened is it caught, it caught a wei- like, it got super lucky firstly. There wasn't, I, I wasn't

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really like analyzing the markets and like understanding what exactly people wanted. I just, I just posted it and I got lucky. But in hindsight, yeah, there was like a curiosity factor.

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There was like a, "Wow, I've never seen this before," because other people have done it, but they haven't caught, that hadn't caught on.

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And so the, the kind of windfall of attention from that was it kinda went viral, and it went viral in a really weird group of people that is like VCs and company owners and boards of directors, you know, of people who like don't normally get caught up in the viral aspect of reading something.

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Yeah. So for them, you know, it's not like, you know, a MrBeast video that will go viral every day with a really...

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You know, this was like an audience of people that aren't used to stuff going viral and- It's not a lowest common denominator type of thing. Right. And so, you know, I ended up doing lots of podcasts.

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I wrote for TechCrunch. I, you know, did some articles in like Forbes, um-And I just said yes to everybody because I was like, "Right. This is it. Now I'm gonna...

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You know, this attention is gonna stay, it's gonna hockey stick up. I'm gonna be the most famous man in the world in a year," [scoffs] you know? Um, but really what happened is I spread myself too thin. I stopped doing,

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you know, almost all podcasts, and I stopped writing for TechCrunch because I just wanted to spend more time... I was like, "If I've got time to write-" Why not do the thing? "... I wanna publish it. I wanna do it.

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I, I wanna build, you know, that brand myself as opposed to, um, you know, for someone else." So yeah, it, it, it caught on. It then,

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yeah, maybe like a year later was like, you know, not back to where it was 'cause it's still been growing, but back to like a normal kinda trend. Mm-hmm.

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I revisited the bank study like a year later, um, which then caught off again. And if I did a bank study now, I think it would catch off again, again. But like I, I,

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I need there to be a story worth telling in the banks- Yeah... not just... I, I, I'm not a banking product, you know? Yeah.

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So then talking about like the audience for that, and like, like I said, you were on all these fintech podcasts, et cetera, um, what is your audience now? Who is your audience like broadly today?

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And I think you have like 35,000 newsletter subscribers, uh, et cetera. We don't need to get, uh, into the specifics. Yeah. But who are, who are those people? Who follows you? Yeah.

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It's still, it's still a lot of fintech. I, I think fintech companies are very attracted to what I do because, A, I've got a lot of examples of fintech, that- so that's how they find me.

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But also, um, fintech is something where there's a lot of like really laborious processes like, you know, KYC or identity checks. There's lots of like regulation that is quite difficult to get around.

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So I've accidentally found myself with a fintech audience because I-- my, my startup was a fintech startup as well. Mm-hmm. So I know a lot about it. I've had to int- implement these products. So, um, but now it is...

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Last ti- I do like an annual survey, so as of December, you know, it was like 40% designers, which is actually quite low. Makes sense. Um, it's mostly not designers.

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Um, you know, like 15% are chief execs or boards or VCs or investors, or like that kind of, um, leadership level. And then it, there's a real mix. Like, honestly, it's like, um, I have people...

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We can get into the monetization of Built For Mars in a second- Yeah. Yeah. We'll do that a little later... uh, 'cause this kinda leads into it. But, um,

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you know, when I, when I was trying to take Built For Mars, uh, to like a more like commercial strategy that was gonna be more long-term, I was really aware that like my audience, like I have people email me who are like, "I'm a pilot and I don't care about UX, but I read your stuff and I don't know why.

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Like, I read it. I love it. I've got no, I've got no design skills. I'm not building anything. I'm literally a pilot."

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And I didn't wanna like take it away from them and be like, "Well, now you have to pay to read it," 'cause it's not like a professional tool for them. Mm-hmm. So my audi- my audience is super wide, um, from devs,

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project managers- Pilots... like random jobs, accountants, um- Yeah... but I think that is what makes... That is core.

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I think that is what makes Built For Mars different to, there are many other UX blogs that are much bigger, right? And there are UX courses that have newsletters that are bigger.

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The difference is Built For Mars is often the first time that someone has cared about UX. Mm-hmm. Like, it's often the entry point that they're a developer.

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Their only expectation of UX is we have designers who think they're the shit, and they come here with all their arty-farty stuff and like, you know, we have to then build it, and it's a nightmare. Mm-hmm.

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And this is the first time that I can like bridge that gap and be like, "These design teams are building stuff and like there's a lot of thought that goes into it. This is some of that thought.

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And maybe if your designers send you bad stuff, these are some ideas that you can do to like fix that." And so it's like the first, the, the introduction to like UX for a lot of these people.

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So I don't mind the audience being super broad. I think there's actually like a benefit. Yeah. Um, yeah. Okay. Let, uh, so let's talk about monetization a bit.

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Um, I-- So one of your interviews that you did in the aftermath of the bank study, I, I wrote this down. It's a, maybe a little paraphrased, but you said, "I don't make money out of Built For Mars.

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People pay me separately to work on their own stuff. It's a free blog. I don't have ads. I never plan on putting ads or making money or making it a paid newsletter.

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I do it because I love it, so I hope that comes across." Uh, and I think it still comes across, Ed. You're not really doing ads, but you have made it, um, a paid newsletter as of November 2023.

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And so we started to talk about that a little bit, but tell me more about the why. Why, you know, eight months ago, six-- that's like six months ago, why then do you start to turn it into a premium product? Yeah.

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[clears throat] I've got to scrub that from the internet now. Impossible. Um, yeah. No.

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So look, I, when I, when I started, um, it was full consulting, and I-- the plan was, you know, the, the kind of selfish plan, because obviously I love doing it, but I, the selfish plan was to get Built For Mars really big, and you'll always use that to get bigger clients and, you know, be able to consult for the best companies in the world, which is really where I'm at like now.

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Yeah. I work with like really awesome companies. The, the problem is I've been doing that for five years. Consulting doesn't scale, um- It's just you... as a product. It's just me.

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And I, I never want to have an agency where I've got people working under me that I like outsource this stuff to because I just, that's not what I wanna run.

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Um, I hated consultants when I was a startup founder, like really found them difficult. So I was like, "I'm not gonna do this and have some brand that, you know, does that."

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So the reason my perception changed over the years for the paid-Subscription. People were approaching me saying, "Where can we, like, buy merch?" Or, "Where can we, like, support you?" Support you.

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Yeah Do you have like a Patreon? Like, there are three developers that work on Built For Mars, like, part-time Uh-huh So how can I sustain that to a point where I'm not just paying wages for people,

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um, out of a consulting pocket that can't scale? Mm-hmm. Because that doesn't make sense to me.

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So, um, this was a way of doing that, and I, I never wanted to do ads, and I needed to keep it to a point where nobody thought for a second that if I was publishing something about Substack and I said, "Look how great their UX is," like, no one can think that I was paid for that because I want- Mm-hmm...

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and so, like, the second I have a single ad or a sponsored post or any kind of, like... Like that. Do you see what I mean? I... So it had to be- Yeah. You need trust. Yeah.

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And so it had to be a model where I knew that, like, 1% of my audience would pay. Well, I desc- often describe, like, people who...

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Like, the, kind of the model you're building, you go from like a one-to-one consultancy to it, it's then like a one-to-many consultancy that's like, you know, maybe not as, like...

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You're not charging thousands of dollars for it. You're charging, like, pounds a month or whatever, so then it's, it's, like, less contextualized.

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But like, that's, that's what you're starting to offer, is this one-to-many consultancy. That's a different business, but like you're still providing these learnings, and that scales.

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Um, anyways, I, I wanna talk about the website, 'cause your website is obviously fantastic, uh, and I know it wasn't always that way. You said you have three developers working on it.

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Um, I think where we are now, according to your little About page timeline, is V3. So tell me about how this website has evolved into this, like, wonderful thing that's a joy to use from, like- Yeah...

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a WordPress site back in the day. Well, I'm glad you said it, 'cause I hate it, and I actually- [laughs]... uh, the, you know, the... No. Well, there are... Firstly, I'm actually a terrible designer, firstly.

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Like, I really am, and that's not me trying to be really humble. Like, I am a really bad designer. Um- Well, no, no, no. To interrupt you. I, I... That's, that's like, but that's why you're good at what you do, right?

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'Cause then you're, like, trying to make up with it, make up for it by, like, hunting down all these details and, like, it's that drive- Well-... to like make up that gap kind of, right?

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Perceived gap, 'cause y- I mean, you're not a terrible... Uh, I'll let you be the judge, but, uh, right? It's like making up that perceived gap is, like, your talent. Yeah. I, look, I...

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Uh, I mean, there's so many things there, where to start.

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Because most of what I do is consulting, or it's, you know, it was and now it's shifting, the website was always, I, I've got so many things I could improve on there.

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Like, I, I don't have the resources that these big companies have.

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So whereas I can say, "Here are five experiments to run," or like, "These are some improvements you can make," or, "Try refactoring this," I can't, I don't have that luxury 'cause these devs are part-time for me, and also I don't have an unlimited budget to just [laughs] do loads of things.

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So, um, that's, that's one of the reasons why I'm both frustrated and other people are frustrated with the Built For Mars website. Mm-hmm.

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But it's progressed from a content perspective because, uh, the case studies are... Well, it's all custom built, so the c- every, every, like, block as it were is built- Mm...

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for a purpose of like, you know, describing a thing, like the slideshow. Um, the case studies are like stories.

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They're like, you know, this is what it's like to be an Uber driver, and there's an element of, like, mystique around it.

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And normally I try and, you know, aim for like three or four points that are really can be relevant for most people. Um,

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there's a lot of stuff in the case study I have to ignore, a lot of issues I see that I can't mention because I just don't have time for it. UX Bites is like the highlight reel of, like, match of the day or something.

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Mm. Yeah. Right? It's like, uh, here are the best goals of the season. Cheat Sheets are like the person explaining on the whiteboard how that goal was possible. So it's like, you know, um, it's not a story.

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There's no, like, narrative to it. It's like, um, you know, this person made this goal because this midfielder moved up, pushed the defender, and it... that's kind of like the analysis of it. Yeah.

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But it's all held together with the psychology. So it's like there is this, like a, a glossary of UX essentially. But that's like a, it's like the glue of like how all these things make people think.

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And that's developed over time purely... And it may still develop. Like, there are exercises on there now. But the, the thing that's really hard is knowing when to stop, because- Yeah...

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you know, not everyone wants to read all these things. And so, like, the more time I spend on, you know, cheat sheets, which are like a paid perk, the, the fewer case studies I could release. Mm-hmm.

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And so it's like, I don't know where the perfect balance is. I try and get feedback from people all the time. Um, and I know that sometimes I, like, step too far in one direction.

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Like, I do too many of these things, too few of these things, so.

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Um, but it has developed like that as I've had more and more capacity, and that is the plan now, to continue scaling down consultancy, spending more time on creation- Mm-hmm... and trying to map out that kind of...

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The dream is you can come to the site and be like, "I'm building a taxi app" Mm. And it's like, "Oh, have you thought about reducing churn? Here are loads of things." Then you can keep diving in a bit like a rabbit hole.

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Which you'll, I mean, you'll get to that point down, point down the years. Um, I, I relate, I relate to what you're saying too, though, about like,

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like what you were saying about trying to improve the UX and, like, you're a guy who writes about UX, et cetera, so, like, you should, you know [laughs] you know all these things and you want to apply them to your website.

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It's the same, like, with what I'm doing with this newsletter where I'm talking to people every week about ways to make a better newsletter or whatever, but then I don't have the time to apply all those things to mine.

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Um, and then I see these glaring things, and I'm like, "I gotta get to it someday." Um, but we should- So look, sorry. Oh, go ahead. Yeah Can I, can I jump in there? Yeah. You know, that is, that is, like, why,

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you know, products like Beehiiv, right? Or, you know, to name an obvious, Substack or- Yeah... you know, products like that, um, are so valuable. Like, Built For Mars use Beehiiv- Yeah...

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um, for all the newsletters, you know?

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But like, if, if I didn't have a slideshow and I didn't need the glue and I didn't need the kind of connections between elements on the site and I was just writing these case study narratives- Which it's so interconnected...

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I would 100%- Mm-hmm. I would 100% not build a website. Right.

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I would just have a newsletterUm, like I think that format is so great for people who have like narrative stories or breakdowns or, you know, like weekly digests. There's no need to have a website.

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So the website to me is something I have to have because I have all these complex like- You've got-... relationships between content. Mm-hmm. Exactly.

153
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Um, but like it, it, it wouldn't have to be like that if I was writing something more simple. So yeah, because I have to maintain and improve a website, I'm spending less time creating content.

154
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So every minute could be spent on something. And so that's why the website isn't perfect, 'cause I'm too busy writing the content about- Yeah...

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how other people's websites are bad- About how to make perfect websites [laughs]... and then I get people emailing me. Right. Yeah.

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And then I have people emailing me like, "Hey, your login form, the placeholder text I- is like broken or this thing," and I'm like, you know? So- You're like, "I know. I know"... the irony is not lost on me.

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[laughs] Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Like, um- Um, yeah. Uh, we should talk about the newsletters though, 'cause this is ostensibly, you know, a series about newsletters. Um, so you've got the two.

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You've got the Built For Mars one, which I think has been around for like four years, three years, something like that. Um, and then you've got UX Bytes, which I think is about a year old.

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Um, so tell me what's the difference between the, the two? It's boring and technical. I- if, you know, if there was a, a better way of me managing people's preferences, it would just be one. Mm-hmm.

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But the reason, like, the reason why it is two is, is purely like functional- Yeah... because I, I want people to be able to list- I want... You know, I'm gonna use the pilot example.

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There are other, like, there are teachers who have emailed me, there are students who are studying something completely irrelevant to UX. Um, but like I want the, the teacher

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to be able to read Built For Mars once a month and find it enjoyable without being bombarded with like, "Hey, have you thought about the thing Slack's doing?" Yeah. You know? Like, that's not what they're there for.

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So it's kind of a differentiation between casual readership of people who should never pay. Like, those people are just reading it for enjoyment. Mm-hmm. They're not taking it away and,

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you know- And you wanna give them that still. Um, but- Yeah. I think so. I think that's really important, because they shouldn't, they, they never will pay. This isn't Netflix, right?

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[laughs] Like, you know, no one should pay £12 a month to read one article that they read for enjoyment and then laugh a few times and then forget about.

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Well, it's the subscription fatigue we're talking about, which like I- Right... I rotate subscriptions. I have like, I think right now I pay for like one. It's like a podcast about Bob Dylan or something.

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[laughs] That's the one subscription. Oh, right. Of course all the, you know, the Netflix, whatever, all that bullshit. But, um, yeah, it's hard. Too many subscriptions. Anyways, um- It's too many.

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And, and, you know, so the product is differentiated by, it's mostly like teams that use Built For Mars Plus as it is imaginatively named. Mm-hmm. Um,

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you know, 'cause if you're using it for work, I'm, I'm sure that if you use it for work, you're getting a positive ROI. Oh, absolutely.

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100%, because two good ideas a year improve your conversions by like half a percent, you're up. You know? So for those people it makes a lot of sense. It's a one-to-many consultancy. Right.

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So but yeah, for the teacher reading it, like, um, so that's why there's two newsletters. And, and to be honest, there could be more. Yeah.

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Let's talk about, real quick, we don't need to like dig into them, but the stats for each one, open rate or s- number of subscribers, open rate, click rate. Just love to hear them- Yeah... and then we can move on.

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So open rate 48.7%- Quite good... and click rate is... Oh, wait, no, that's the last four weeks. Let me just do, let me just do last year. All, all year. Okay, so 48.4% open and then 14% click through.

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Um- And then how many subscribers? So there's 34,676 subscribers. The two newsletters differ- Okay... and they're not a perfect overlap, because some people are subscribed to one or the other. Mm-hmm.

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So if I had to guess, somewhere in the 30, yeah, 36K unique range possibly. We'll go with that. Something like that. Those numbers are great though. I mean, they'll- I do purge the list though. Oh, okay.

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What's, what's your formula? Well, if people haven't opened the last five- Mm... I normally get rid of them. Mm. Um, which I think is like good newsletter hygiene. Although,

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you know, the challenge is obviously the number goes down, which is less, less impressive. Uh- Well, that's not your priority per- exactly, is it? Yeah. But I think it does hurt, you know? I- Yeah. [laughs]...

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I, I'm not, I'm not above feeling crappy about myself when the number doesn't grow. Mm-hmm. You know? So like- I've seen that regret...

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every time I have to purge people, I, and I'm like, "Right, how many people now haven't opened one in like six months- Mm... or whatever," and I'm like, "Ugh, there's another like 500 people I've gotta delete," you know?

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Yeah. So it hurts every time, but I- Well, so, uh, how, how have you grown the number like over the years? How, how have you made the number go up? Yeah. Um, just word of mouth. I, I did my first ever advert. Hmm.

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Like, uh, I sponsored another newsletter, um, like a few weeks ago. It didn't work. Ah. Like it did really badly. But I like that was the first time I've ever done it.

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Um, but other than that, just pure word of mouth, and I guess me posting on LinkedIn and, you know, occasionally Twitter and stuff. All that, yeah.

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But most of the, most of the readership doesn't subscribe, so of every... 'Cause this is what's really, really strange is each article gets about 60K unique readers, say. On the site. Something like that. Mm-hmm.

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It, on the site. It differs, it differs per article. Like the bank stuff was like, you know, like 250, 300K uniques per article.

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I don't know what the overlap was 'cause the, I, I haven't got amazing analytics- Well, there was like 12 different articles as well, right? Yeah. And so like, and some bomb, some articles do terribly, right?

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Com- [laughs] like comparatively terribly, and I, that always surprises me 'cause I never, I still can't guess which ones they're gonna be. Sometimes they're- Yeah... my favorite ones, and no one enjoys them.

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What's been most popular besides the bank one, bank ones? Yeah. Good question. Um, like I did one on Zara- Hmm...

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which like caught a totally new audience of like people who-Hate Zara I saw that on your LinkedIn Which is odd... the comments were kind of- Yeah... uh, they were going off.

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D- well, I got a lot of abuse because people thought I just didn't understand fashion, which is definitely true. [laughs] Uh- Besides the point, yeah... but then there was more...

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It was overwhelming the number of people who then agreed that the site was just, like, borderline unusable. Um- Mm-hmm... you know, and like, no shade to Zara, I think they're do- they're doing it intentionally.

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Like, that's their brand strategy. That did really well, but I didn't think that would do well. Well- But yeah, what's interesting about the readership is it's mostly not people who subscribe. Yeah.

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Like, I would say it's, like, the readership of the 30,000, you know, like, I think it was like, yeah, like I said, like, 10 to 15% click through. That's about what I see land on the site, and then- Mm-hmm...

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most of the people are just people who, like, check the site every week or every month or whatever- Got it bookmarked or whatever... and don't bother subscribing. Yeah. Yeah. Which is, like, such a...

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I mean, I don't know. That's the way in which we use the internet, and like, I used to have so many... Like, you know, 10 years ago I had all these music blogs bookmarked, and now I just use Spotify.

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Anyways, I wanted to ask about your relationship to being on other platforms. You were saying earlier you don't really like social media so much.

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Um, but you know, we were just talking about on LinkedIn, and I feel like LinkedIn, maybe Twitter, the, the website formerly known as Twitter, is where you're more active these days.

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[laughs] So, uh, yeah, question is what's your relationship to being on multiple platforms, um, and do you actually enjoy using any of them? Or [laughs] is it all just, like, a, a chore? It's all a chore.

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I mean, LinkedIn is my favorite because [sighs] it just has a different perception. It's not good, but it just has a different perception and, and a lot of my audience is on LinkedIn. Mm-hmm.

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Like, the investors that follow me. You know, a lot of the time the people that approach me for, like, audits and things are, like, the investors of a company- Yeah...

200
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who have read stuff and are like, "God, I re- we, we need our company to, like, look at this sort of thing." So it's a really good way of reaching those people. Um,

201
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you know, Twitter, I've never even bothered with Facebook because I don't use Facebook- That's-... and I always have to log into my personal Facebook and then I just can't be bothered with- No need to do that. Yeah.

202
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I, I just find social media, especially for the stuff I do, is, like, almost intolerable because- Mm...

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I then have to write a headline for an article that people who don't understand what I do are gonna read, and it's like I know that I need to do thumbnails like YouTube, you know- Yeah...

204
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where I'm like a shocked face- I like- [laughs]... where I'm clasping. Exactly. Yeah. [laughs] Like, that's what I need.

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I need, like, "I opened 10 banks, you'll never believe what I found," and then I get an audience of people who land on the site and they're like, "What is this?" Yeah. "This is, like, way too many words."

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You know, there's no, like- He's trying to teach me something... slash Dunkin'. Yeah. Exactly, you know? So I get the wrong audience through those platforms because to get their attention I have to fight against

207
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so many other things. Mm-hmm. You know? And then by the time I've got their attention they're like, "Okay, tell me which is the best one bank then, huh? Which is the best bank?" Yeah.

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And I'm like, "Well, there's a few that are doing really well and-" Yeah. Here, here's the thing... um- Here's actually the 10 things. Actually the 20 things. Yeah. Um- Exactly. Yeah.

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So- One more thing I actually wanted, and I want to talk about on the website before we move on from that is, um, I mentioned it briefly earlier, the, the gamification thing. So I've got, I've got the site up here.

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So I click the little My Account tab and you- I've got your BFM+ analytics. You've got research digested. I'm at 166, you know, I'm a beginner.

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Uh, studies completed, UX bytes seen, cheat sheets completed, psychology studied, and then you've got your little streak.

212
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Um, and I'll, I'll say, like, before, before I hand it back to you, it reminded me of, like, a Duolingo kind of thing in terms of learning, but much better. I, like, I hadn't used Duolingo- [laughs]... for a long time.

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Um, I'm going to Germany in, like, a month and trying to, you know, brush up my Deutsch. Um, so I redownloaded Duolingo and it's awful.

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It's like, it just feels like, like I've got Tetris on my phone for, like, if I'm on a flight and I'm, you know, just want to play a little Tetris, but I play that and then it's like you do a round and there's, like, these three ads and they're for such terrible products, and that's what Duolingo is now.

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Um, it's a, uh... You know, it, it just feels like a phone game and not an educational tool. Um, so this is a rant only loosely related to your gamification, which is much less annoying and kind of charming.

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Uh, so tell me about why you... When you put that in and why, what was the thinking around, you know, slightly gamifying your site? Yeah. Well, that's still, that's still an experiment- Mm...

217
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what I would class as an experiment in that, like, I could remove it if it failed. I'm kind of still... You know, the, the jury's still out if it's, like, net beneficial.

218
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So the, uh, the thinking behind that is people are growing tired of, like, streaks in terms of, like, "Congratulations, you did this thing again." Yeah. You know?

219
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If there's no meaning behind it and it's like, you know, "Well, why do I want to do that again?" Like, you're on a posting streak, it's like, great, well, do I post, like, rubbish? Do I have to post every day?

220
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[laughs] Like, you turn stuff into a chore. Yeah. You know? So that, that, that was one of the problems, but I wanted a way for people to understand the depth of the library that they've not read. Mm. Right?

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Because people... Like, people will pay [laughs] and then email me and be like, "Hey, can you do some articles on Intercom?" And I'd be like, "Yeah, I've done two." Yeah. "One in 2020, one in 2024."

222
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Well, and, and- And it's like not there...

223
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having the, the, the hours of research I think is what really gets at this too where it's like, "I've put so much work into this, like, trust me," like, then this is you saying, like,

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"Look, uh, j- you know, this is highly valuable stuff. Like, you can read in 10 minutes what took me 50 hours." Yeah. And I think part of the problem, so this is another challenge I've been dealing with, is,

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you know, I write the articles, I know that they're gonna date slightly- Mm... the screenshots are gonna be old. In fact, often I'm building them and then the new app comes out while I'm- Yeah...

226
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so I'm already releasing old screenshots. But the, the content has to be in a format that is like putting a book on a shelf and I know that someone can read that in two years and it's still kind of good. Mm-hmm.

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And I'll often dip back into old articles and, like, update things or change the wording of things if I feel like I can now say it better.

228
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So it's not a blog where if you read a three-year-old post you're getting bad old stuff.Th- these, these posts are rooted in, like, how people think, which doesn't change very often. So

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it's not their fault, because people come to blogs with an expectation and, like, a, a familiarity of, like, I go to the newest stuff, I read the newest stuff, everything else is probably dated and boring. Yeah. Yeah.

230
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Like, no one goes to, like, Wall Street Journal, sort by age, and then reads articles- [laughs]... like in 20, you know, [laughs] 2016. Yeah. Like, it just doesn't happen.

231
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Um, so that's what I'm trying to fight against, is people... And, and I could do a way better job. The search on the site is really bad, you know.

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There needs to be a better way of finding content, because the other thing is, how do you know you wanna click on that Intercom article?

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Most people aren't super interested in Intercom, but they wanna know what I'm discussing in that article. So- Yeah... there's a lot of, like, questions there. But so, so the gamification element is more...

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So when people are like, "Ugh, God, have I read everything?" They can see, it's like- Yeah... hey, there are, like, hundreds of UX experiments waiting for you to look at.

235
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And it's like, you browse through 20 of these and you'll have one idea, right? And so, like, the aim that I want is every time you come to the site, you can binge it a bit like a TikTok- Mm-hmm...

236
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but, like, for five minutes, not for, like, hours. Get a few ideas, take it away to a meeting, and then, like, you know, go through those. So- Yeah...

237
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it, it's just more about surfacing the depth than it is about encouraging you to continuously, like, come back. Yeah.

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Uh, I wanted to ask about this idea of content UX, and like, which is k- kind of a broad thing, 'cause obviously UX is, is about contextualizing and, and the why, and so it's hard to say maybe anything too broad.

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But like, for example, with Creator Spotlight, I think before we started recording I was talking about how I've broken it down into sections.

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So it's like, the way I think of that is, like, texture on a wall, where if you're climbing a wall you want more handholds. So it's like instead of just a flat wall where it's just all one, you know, two...

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2,500 words, as my newsletters often bloat to, um, there's these sections, and you can, like, switch and switch around.

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Um, so that's how I think about, like, content UX for Creator Spotlight, just as a intro to this question, which is, um, yeah, like content UX specifically for newsletters. Is this something you think about?

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Yeah, I think about it all the time. I get, I get feedback about that all the time, because some people are annoyed. You know, like, like a quote block, right? Mm-hmm. Where it's like it'll be a quote in big text.

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That's, for people with a short attention span, that is really good at, like, giving them a visual anchor of, like, okay- Yes... you're onto the next thing. It's a handhold. Onto the next thing. And that's...

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Well, it's, it's a handhold, but it's like a, it's a tiny little spark of, like, an achievement because you get to the next thing. Mm-hmm. But it is, like, quite bad and inefficient at reading.

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[laughs] Like, it, you know...

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So, like, if you're reading an article you really care about and I see the quote, my first thought is, "Oh, God, is that a quote that's al- also in the text, or am I reading the same thing twice?" Yeah. Yeah. You know?

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And, and so, like, I get, I get both sides of this, which is people annoyed at the studies saying, you know, there are way too many different content jumps, you're using bullet points here.

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Like, I would rather just a block of text and images. Like, and then some people who really do need that, like, constant changing of, like, stuff. Mm-hmm. Um, so I'm sure it comes down to, like, an audience level.

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I haven't found the perfect balance for sure. Probably isn't a perfect balance, but like- We're chasing equilibrium. Well, it's probably audience specific, right?

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So if you're writing, like, a dev newsletter, don't copy a popular cooking newsletter that's aimed at, like... You know. Do, do you see what I mean? Yeah.

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Like, you can't just look at, go, I read Published Press is, like, a newsletter, right? Mm-hmm. They're also a beehive newsletter- It's good... but, like- Yeah... they're great. Their, their format would not...

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And, like, The Morning Brew format, you know- Yeah, which is what theirs kind of is... that would not work well. Mm-hmm. Right.

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That would not work well if you took that format and then wrote, like, a really deep mathematical... Like, you know? 'Cause- 'Cause it's a digest... the people reading that- Yeah. Right.

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So it depends on the, the content, the content type, I think. Um- Yeah. No, I think... 'Cause that's a, a, a certain point I think about, like maybe we'll bring somebody in to do...

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Ostensibly my title here is, like, editor of this newsletter podcast. Um, but I do the research. I do, I do this interview. Um, I do have a producer, Tom, who will edit this. Um, but then I write the thing.

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But eventually it's like, we need to bring somebody else in, and, like, that's... I don't know. It's outsourcing something where it's, like, especially so research driven.

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And I think, again, like you're, I think, more detail-oriented and deeper in your research than I am, but it's like, especially when it's about research, it's like, are you, is that person gonna notice the same details that I noticed?

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Because, like, that's kind of, if there's a secret sauce, I think it's that, right? It's like the details you notice and why you pick up on them. Um, so I don't know.

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Maybe, maybe there's a world in which you're, like, hiring researchers, but then, like I just said, like, and you're still doing the writing and they're doing the research.

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But then again, it's like you're always gonna worry, like, did they miss, like, the perfect detail that I needed? Or you need to see it, right? Yeah. Yeah. I mean, it's li- I don't know. I, I, I...

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You know, I spend a lot of time around founders, both in unsuccessful startups and founders of, like, hugely successful companies. Yeah. And, you know, there is a,

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there is an unwavering desire just to have better and more, even if they're not money driven. Mm-hmm.

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And that is what a lot of people misunderstand, is like, you know, like when you say you wanna hire more people, it is because there is, like, an inclination to have, this has to be bigger next year- Yeah...

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and then bigger the year after, and then one day we'll be the biggest brand in the world, right? And, and that is, that is [laughs] the desire we all have. Yeah. You know? And, and that it seems n- that seems natural.

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And so, you know, there are two types of YouTubers. There are some that go down the very

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production heavy route, and they have like, you know, editors and filmmakers and then writers and all this, and they become, like, the face of a production.

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And then there are people that still are just, like, them and a camera and maybe one other person, and they're just as big, but they shoot it, like-Well, I think the, the, the question here then is it's m- less about scale and it's more about, uh, sustainability, right?

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And like, I... Like, with me, it's like I...

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We might need to, like, have more newsletters and stuff so we have more surface area for ads or whatever, so we can, like, this can generate more revenue and justify me being paid by Beehiiv, right?

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So, like, that's my desire is to, like, scale so this is a su- sustainable thing that I can keep doing because I like to do it and it's fun. Um, but like, I think I... The, like, chase for growth is always folly, right?

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Like, everything dies and, you know, you can grow as far as you want and eventually the, the tree's gonna fall. Um, not that we have to get so existential about, you know, capitalist

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structure of companies and growth, but I think...

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And that's, I think, something I like about you and something I was drawn to when I, like, wanted to, when I reached out and wanted to do this interview was, like, the way you've set it up sustainably and, like, that it is just you and that, like, you have started doing the subscription thing because you want to create it in a sustainable way.

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But how what you do is, like, so... I don't know. It's like you're doing a service to however many people want to subscribe. Um, but now I'm just kinda rambling. But I think- Yeah...

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I think that's the key is, like, to search for sustainability, not for growth. I mean, there is a, there is an element of when my startup got acquired,

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I underscored a lot of problems in my life that were like, I can now afford to do something for free. Mm-hmm. And so- Yeah... you know, that, that is a huge, like, privilege in terms of creation to...

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You know, Built For Mars, s- five years in, still wouldn't make enough money through the content subscription, you know, for me to be able to pay to invest in all these things and then live a comfortable life.

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If you didn't have that padding already. Correct. Or the consulting, right? Yeah. So ignore the consulting. But, like, from a content perspective. So, you know, content is hard to make a living out of, and so

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yeah, stuff needs to quickly grow and be bigger, and then you have to hire more people, and you end up in this, like, mindset of, you know, we need, we need more ad space because that is, like, an essential.

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And, and that's... If that's what you need to do, that's what you need to do. Yeah. And then... But I think, I think that is a compromise of quality. It is. And I think we need to, you know, pretend...

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Like, we need to n- stop pretending that, like, if you don't have to take that compromise, it's not a privilege. And if you do have to take the compromise, it's not a dirty thing to have to do.

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Um, but that's the trade-off is I'm certainly on one end of the spectrum where, like, I can, you know, I can not take ads, for example. Yeah. Um- You're an investor in yourself. Or just a bad businessman- Yeah. Well-...

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and just unwilling to [laughs] His- history says otherwise [laughs] 'Cause, uh... Well, I... You know what? There was a, there was a... I, I did one newsletter where I put out a call for ads- Mm-hmm... actually.

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And I thought, "Maybe I'll do ads. Maybe, you know, maybe ads will work in certain ways." And the companies I got back who wanted to advertise were just like...

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I was just like, how am I gonna turn this UX article into, like, a VPN advert? Yeah. You know? Like, what is the, what is the sell here? Am I like, "Oh, you want, you want like- Where does all that fit in here?

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[laughs] You know what I mean? Like, so for some, for some industries it may be easier. Um, if you're writing about food and recipes, there are probably tons of advertisers- Mm-hmm... who would be able to... You know?

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Without becoming compromised- Well, that's why there's... You monetize in different ways depending on your niche and your industry and, like, whether it's a newsletter or whether it's short-form video, et cetera.

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It's like, I mean, it's a g- again, how do you fit the VPN thing in there? It's about context and figuring out what makes sense to make your project sustainable given the audience and the subject matter, right? Sure.

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Yeah. But that's why I think Built For Mars may feel like genuine and authentic is because it is almost like, you know, your, like, organic grass-fed cow- [laughs]... that like- Labor of love...

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really has no, it really has no business being there, you know? Yeah. Like, being treated in that way. And that's how I think of Built For Mars.

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It's like, you know, it has no business to have the attention I give it and the care I give it and the articles, just to publish them and sometimes people read them, you know? Um- But that's why it's so good.

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Um- Well, that... Yeah. Well, I'll say that. You don't have to say that. Um, okay. One, one more question. So, like you said, you've been doing it for five years. Um, five years from now, what, what's...

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Uh, you know, I, I don't think you know exactly what it's gonna be five years from now, but what are some of the, you know, branching paths you th- you could see it taking? Yeah.

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So the aim, the aim is to have a tool where... And I think of it like a product or a tool, and less like a content subscription. So, you know, there's already m- I can see the statistics.

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There's already more content than people are willing to consume, you know? And so there will become a point where for new readers who la- who discover the site now...

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Like, I always think if you discovered Built For Mars today, there is so much stuff there to read. Yeah. Is it already too much stuff? Um,

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and so there will come a point where I'm like, "Hey, this is my 211th case study," and it's like, great. Th- do we need more? Like, are- Yeah. Are, is there...

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Are, are there actually 211, like, unique sets of learnings in each of these? Like- Precisely.

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The long and the short of it is there's a lot of work going on in the back end now, um, to create these relationships to categorize and curate content in a way that I think in five years you'll be able to come on and say,

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"I'm, I'm seeing a lot of churn. Help." Mm-hmm. And, and I can surface, "Well, what are you looking for? Churn in a, you know, SaaS product? Well, here's like, you know, 500 examples of things other people are doing.

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But more importantly, like, here's a deep dive into exactly, like... Give this 10 minutes read and then look at a bunch of this stuff, and, and here are how to connect some of the dots." Yeah.

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It's about, like, trying to move away from, like, just this chronological ordering of new content and, like, finding a way to build this ecosystem where you can, like, enter with a need or a desire and, like, it's like this liquid content library that will reform in the way that will help you most at that point.Yeah.

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Like if I had, if I'd published each article as like a hardback book, right? [laughs] Wouldn't make sense. You know, and I, and I had...

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Well, firstly it wouldn't make any sense, but then if I had, um, you know, and there was like, and I charged a fee to like be a part of the library, let's say, right, and you could go in, after a certain amount of time, people wouldn't be interested in more books.

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They'd be interested in like a concierge service of like walking in and being pointed to the paragraph you need. Mm-hmm. 'Cause that's what people want fundamentally. So

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that's the way I see it, is in five years it's transitioning from a, uh, a content subscription, like a newsletter, into a,

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a productized tool for, you know, competitive research, for understanding where you are, for building a product, for, uh... It's like, it's like a course, but I don't ever want to do like...

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The reason I've never done a course, although I've been approached by a bunch of these companies to like do a course- Yeah... is you cannot learn it in two hours. It, the, you know, I can't give you a set of 10,

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"Hey, read these 10 articles, answer these questions, and boom, you're a certified UX god." Like, that i- is not how these things work. [laughs] It's just impossible. Um,

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it's impossible because stuff changes, and you, you need to understand like the basics. You need to do a lot of practice. You need to keep reading. You need to read other people's stuff, not just my opinion.

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You know, I'm not a s- I can't certify you as knowing UX. So, um, that's why I've never done a course. Yeah.

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But I think about the site structure in a way that, can I make this so it feels like over time you are getting better? Yeah. That, that's really important, so, um- And that's the gamification thing. Yeah.

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It's an attempt at that. Um, anyways, I think we should probably wrap up here. I don't wanna take up too much more of your time. Uh, so where should the people find you? Sure.

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Uh, well, builtfrommars.com is the- Of course... the, the, there's a free newsletter there, so there's a bunch of... There, there's free content on there as well. Um,

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yeah, Twitter, Built From Mars, that's sometimes active. I have a personal, Pete Ramsay Twitter, that's even less active. Um, [laughs] but honestly the newsletter is the best way. Yeah. Go to the website.

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Um, that's where you'll find him. Okay. So this has been the Creative Spotlight podcast. Our guest today has been Peter Ramsay from, we'll say it one more time, Built From Mars.

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Uh, I have been your host, Francis Zeier, and I will continue to be your host next week. So remember to subscribe, rate us on your preferred podcast listening app, and I'll see you next week.

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