WEBVTT

1
00:00:00.100 --> 00:00:10.140
I was posting workout videos that nobody was watching. I was posting business news content that nobody was watching. I was trying to be motivational and motivating nobody. Career advice kinda came naturally to me.

2
00:00:10.290 --> 00:00:19.940
And now you have a hundred twenty-one thousand on TikTok, two hundred and thirty-eight K on Instagram, twenty K on LinkedIn. The brand is strong. Giving career advice got me to my first one hundred thousand followers.

3
00:00:20.200 --> 00:00:32.080
Because I have this audience, I've almost built a situation in which I can't lose. Reach is the new resume. One hundred percent. We're in the post-information economy. Like, information's free.

4
00:00:32.400 --> 00:00:41.780
We can all get it with all these LLMs and all these tools, right? That's the power of a creator because I can speak to my story better than anyone else can, and that's what's enabled me.

5
00:00:41.820 --> 00:00:56.080
It's like the video doesn't get made without the story. Tell me about those ambitions. Wherever you go, I want you to see Cullen rocker. Welcome back to the Creator Spotlight podcast. My name is Francis Zehrer.

6
00:00:56.120 --> 00:01:07.220
Today, we're speaking with Cullen rocker, a creator focused on career and corporate content with a particular mission to educate the next generation of young professionals. Cullen, thank you for coming on. Of course.

7
00:01:07.300 --> 00:01:19.460
Yeah, thank you for having me. Yes, of course. Um, okay, so as I understand it, your content creator career in earnest begins with TikTok in twenty twenty. You're skeptical of the app. You download it.

8
00:01:19.500 --> 00:01:25.040
You're up till two AM. You're like, "Oh, wait, actually, there's something here. How can I take advantage of this?"

9
00:01:25.610 --> 00:01:33.540
Um, and now you have a hundred twenty-one thousand on TikTok, uh, two hundred and thirty-eight K on Instagram, twenty K on LinkedIn, a few others on some of the other platforms.

10
00:01:34.140 --> 00:01:43.000
Tell me about the start, what you were-- like, your first, your first toe in the water. What were you doing? Like, you're like, "I-- There's something here for me. I'm gonna figure out what it is." What did you try?

11
00:01:43.860 --> 00:01:47.840
Yeah, of course. So in, in twenty twenty, as we all know, we were, we were home.

12
00:01:47.940 --> 00:01:55.300
People were rethinking a lot of things in their life in terms of where their careers were going, and a lot of my friends were switching jobs, right?

13
00:01:55.400 --> 00:02:04.640
And for whatever reason, in my group of friends, people always came to me for that career advice in terms of how to prepare for this interview, what to do on their resume, how to set up their LinkedIn profile.

14
00:02:05.180 --> 00:02:06.780
Uh, and so I said, "You know what?

15
00:02:07.020 --> 00:02:21.400
I'm getting a lot of the same types of questions, and so let me just put this content out there on TikTok," that I had recently, as you said, fallen in love with after I, uh, took my, my girlfriend up on downloading it at the time and, uh, you know, was up, uh, until very, very early the next morning checking it out.

16
00:02:22.080 --> 00:02:31.820
Um, but I, I originally actually started on TikTok doing a lot of things actually. I, I was posting workout videos that nobody was watching. I was posting business news content that nobody was watching.

17
00:02:31.900 --> 00:02:42.570
I was trying to be motivational and motivating nobody, right? And so, uh, I, I kind of, uh- Demotivating yourself even, I'm sure. Exactly. Exactly. Uh, uh, I was demotivating myself acr-ac-across the process.

18
00:02:42.660 --> 00:02:54.020
But no, I think, um, career advice kinda came naturally to me, and we were at a point where people were looking for something different on TikTok, formerly Musical.ly, right?

19
00:02:54.060 --> 00:02:56.680
And so that kinda content was, was at the time very new.

20
00:02:56.780 --> 00:03:08.000
People weren't expecting you to have a, a thirty-second video on how to prepare for a job interview, and so I think that kinda content really, um, took off as younger people were, you know, becoming more of age and figuring out, you know, what they wanted to do in their careers.

21
00:03:08.140 --> 00:03:15.799
The norms of the platform hadn't really calcified yet, and you got in- Mm-hmm... at such a time where you could contribute to that. Absolutely. Yeah. Yeah.

22
00:03:15.880 --> 00:03:34.200
Um, you've spoken, too, about how it took then, I think, a couple years-- I don't know if this includes, like, the early, even, like, the workout content, et cetera, but how it took a couple years of you starting to do, I think, this, this business-focused career advice type of content specifically until you understood, like, "Oh, this first generation professional, it's like that's my brand.

23
00:03:34.340 --> 00:03:41.600
That's who I serve." Right. "That's what will really... Like, uh, naming that and branding that is what will really, like, contribute to my growth."

24
00:03:41.720 --> 00:03:49.320
Tell me about realizing that and then, like, beginning to execute on that and form that brand. Of course, yeah. So I think, um,

25
00:03:50.240 --> 00:03:57.240
giving career advice got me to my first one hundred thousand followers, and that took, you know, a period of probably two years to do that on TikTok.

26
00:03:57.760 --> 00:04:11.920
And I was starting to get a little burnt out, and I, I couldn't, I couldn't answer the question of why someone would watch my content versus someone else's content because at this time, there were other people making career-focused content, and they were getting big.

27
00:04:12.350 --> 00:04:21.539
And I obviously enjoyed what I was doing. I was starting to make a little money on the side, obviously on the side of my, my corporate job at that time, and I was like, "How do I make myself stand out?"

28
00:04:21.579 --> 00:04:25.300
And so-- But, but to do it in a way that felt authentic and, like, honest, right?

29
00:04:25.360 --> 00:04:38.420
And so I spent a lot of time, like a couple months probably, having a lot of conversations with myself around what makes me different, what makes me unique, and what POV or perspective could I bring to this that isn't necessarily being talked about as much.

30
00:04:38.940 --> 00:04:47.740
And so I leaned into the things, uh, that I thought, you know, stood out to me. And so for me, it's this whole notion of, yeah, my dad was a plumber with a high school education.

31
00:04:47.800 --> 00:04:56.820
My mother, uh, never had any corporate experience. And so when I started that job, you know, not only did I have to move to New York with one suitcase, and I slept in an attic 'cause I didn't have any money.

32
00:04:56.860 --> 00:05:05.580
I was eating dollar slice pizza, right? But then once I started my corporate career, I didn't know what PTL was. I didn't know how to actually navigate my career path.

33
00:05:05.640 --> 00:05:13.420
I didn't know, uh, how to, how to self-promote, right? I had to deal with my scarcity mindset. I mean, there were a whole bunch of things that, uh, I had to deal with.

34
00:05:13.480 --> 00:05:37.250
And so bringing those stories to the forefront and putting more of me in the content, uh, but doing it in a way that was very focused and very intentional, like, people really, really, uh, vibed and, and, and resonated with that, and that's how I went from 100K to I, I went-- The first year I started sort of focusing on first gen professional, I more than doubled my audience, and that's what really got me on Instagram too because that message was really, um, powerful there as well.

35
00:05:37.920 --> 00:05:46.580
Yeah. Um, on Instagram specifically, I know you started on TikTok, then moved to Instagram, and now your Instagram has really outpaced, uh, the, the TikTok. That's right. I mentioned that just a second ago.

36
00:05:47.060 --> 00:05:54.820
I'm pretty sure that you're still posting essentially the same videos though. Yeah. Do you have any, like, hypotheses on why that ended up being your platform?

37
00:05:55.220 --> 00:05:59.060
You know, I, [chuckles] I should probably spend a little more time, uh, thinking about that.

38
00:05:59.140 --> 00:06:17.208
I, I do think that there is some aspect of-My audience growing with me, and so given the fact that I put a lot of myself into my content, as I've gotten married, as I've had my first kid, as I've just gotten older and hopefully wiser or at least, you know, less dumb, um, I think that's coming out in the content.

39
00:06:17.248 --> 00:06:22.928
And so, you know, I'm, I'm... You know, I'm not gonna say that TikTok, you know, there are only kids on there. That's not true, right?

40
00:06:23.068 --> 00:06:36.288
But I do think that on Instagram, the amount of people on that platform that are in that, you know, 27 to 35-year range, right, I do think that number is larger, certainly the people that are active and engaging with my content.

41
00:06:36.628 --> 00:06:43.508
And so I think it's, it's been a little bit more, uh, resonant there. Um, and I do think that around the time, uh...

42
00:06:43.518 --> 00:06:51.068
'Cause I, I got on Instagram because I was terrified the first time TikTok was going to be banned, you know, to be completely honest with you. When was that? But- Oh, wait, 'cause I don't, I don't remember.

43
00:06:51.168 --> 00:07:01.188
[laughs] I remember the one earlier this year in January. I don't remember the, the previous time. Yeah, it was, um, gosh, I wanna say it was, it was, like, two or three years ago. Uh, it, it was a while ago.

44
00:07:01.288 --> 00:07:10.328
Um, it, I think it was, like, 2023 was when I first, like, said, like, "Oh, like, I've gotta get on this other platform because, you know, TikTok may not be around or it may change or whatever."

45
00:07:10.408 --> 00:07:20.768
Um, that's what got me on there in the first place. And so, um, yeah, I mean, I'm, I'm posting the same content. I still find a lot of value in my TikTok. I think my videos there have a much longer half-life.

46
00:07:20.828 --> 00:07:25.868
I mean, people are still commenting on videos I made seemingly three-plus years ago, which is crazy to me.

47
00:07:25.928 --> 00:07:39.988
And it's a great testing ground because I don't have to worry about my, my feed or what people see, and so, like, I can create three versions of the same video, put them up at the same exact time, whereas if you did that on, like, a LinkedIn or an Instagram, it's not really seen as, like, a best practice.

48
00:07:40.388 --> 00:07:48.288
Um, so I definitely still use my TikTok, um, a lot, and I love the community I built there. I noticed that, there, that there was, like, a... You were doing- Yeah. [laughs]... some of that, like, you know, slight tweak.

49
00:07:48.668 --> 00:07:57.668
Let's post a video at the same time. Classic, uh, A/B testing, you know? Exactly. Hey, if you're enjoying this conversation, consider subscribing to the podcast. We release a new episode every Tuesday.

50
00:07:58.268 --> 00:08:08.118
All right, back to the show. Um, you, your, your professional life before you went full time on this, uh, you spent years as a consultant at, at Deloitte and a couple others. Sure.

51
00:08:08.398 --> 00:08:15.917
Um, it strikes me that that has given you... I mean, you know, you've got a number of skills. You, you've got this natural charisma. You're very good at speaking, you know.

52
00:08:16.048 --> 00:08:26.238
I think when, when you mentioned that your, um, your friends would come to you for career advice, even when I was just, like, watching some of your videos to prepare for this, I'm like, "Oh, I, I trust this guy."

53
00:08:26.388 --> 00:08:35.368
Like, "I feel like he's got my best interests in mind, and, and this... and I should be listening to him." Um, so you've got that naturally, and I think that, um, really- That's really sweet. Thank you.

54
00:08:35.488 --> 00:08:45.608
Yeah, no, of course. Um- Yeah... I, I think that really comes across. But I wanna talk about that more strategic side, too, and, like, obviously being a con- becoming a consultant, um, even just getting there, like, I...

55
00:08:46.588 --> 00:08:54.648
[laughs] I promise I'll let you speak in a second. I was just listening to you on another podcast where you spoke about, like, trying to figure out, like, "What do I wanna do?" You thought you wanted to be a coder.

56
00:08:54.728 --> 00:09:01.917
Um, you know, I, my parents are farmers, so I come also from, like, a- Oh, wow. Okay... a untraditional background like you. That's right. So I'm like, "I don't know what a job is."

57
00:09:01.968 --> 00:09:04.738
Like, I, I don't know anything [laughs] about the professional world. That's right.

58
00:09:04.788 --> 00:09:13.758
And I really related to you saying, like, um, you know, you were at this networking event and you saw this person holding court in their suit, holding their cocktail- [laughs]... uh, just like so. Yeah.

59
00:09:13.758 --> 00:09:17.498
And you're like, "How do I get there? How do I reverse engineer getting there?" That's right.

60
00:09:17.498 --> 00:09:23.868
So you're very strategically minded in breaking that kind of thing down, which is also, you know, being a consultant, et cetera.

61
00:09:24.668 --> 00:09:34.508
Long way of asking, how did the skills you learned as a consultant then translate into this, um, [lips smack] uh, creator work? Oh, I love that question.

62
00:09:34.518 --> 00:09:46.328
So I, I think the, the main value prop or the main thing you really learn, I think, as a consultant is how to tell a story, especially with data or information, and then how to think about things, like, structurally.

63
00:09:46.428 --> 00:09:56.208
Like, if you have an outcome, how do you actually work yourself into, like, getting that actual thing done, right? And so I think that, um, first of all, I love you sharing your story here, and I, I definitely like...

64
00:09:56.248 --> 00:10:05.888
You know, when I was in college and high school, like, no job that I've actually had post-college I knew even existed when I started college, right? And so I think that's, like, really big and important.

65
00:10:06.348 --> 00:10:09.828
But, um, once I got started in consulting, I think it's like, um,

66
00:10:10.868 --> 00:10:19.447
a lot of it is the public speaking, and I had a really good manager, and so they put me in a lot of rooms that I otherwise wouldn't have been in because I was very, uh, upfront about wanting to get that experience.

67
00:10:19.488 --> 00:10:29.608
And so I was able to present to clients and present to some internal teams, which really works on your confidence when you're able to get in front of someone making, you know, 10 times what you make, and they have all this power and influence, and you, you...

68
00:10:29.688 --> 00:10:36.368
Some people may get... I got nervous in front of that audience, but you, you get over it and, and it becomes normal, right? So I think that was a big thing.

69
00:10:36.908 --> 00:10:42.828
And you have to be a really effective communicator, and so that's obviously the, the bread and butter of, you know, any effective content.

70
00:10:42.888 --> 00:10:53.188
You have to say something that's clear, but also human, but also direct, but also, you know, vulnerable. And so you have to hit this, this moving target a lot of times. Uh, algorithms are changing.

71
00:10:53.248 --> 00:10:54.888
Other people are popping up, right?

72
00:10:54.908 --> 00:11:03.768
And so I think the, the, the effective communication and definitely, like, the, the structured thinking were the two biggest things, uh, definitely that I got out of, uh, consulting that helped me with content.

73
00:11:03.988 --> 00:11:13.178
That makes total sense. Uh, so speaking of your content now and what the videos look like now, uh, again, as I said, it's this confidence, kindness, and charisma that really comes out.

74
00:11:13.228 --> 00:11:23.238
These videos aren't particularly fancy. It's just kind of you often walking down the street or, like, you know, classic green screened over a Notes app- Yeah... in, in your robe in a hotel room. Whatever it is.

75
00:11:23.248 --> 00:11:32.488
[laughs] It's not fancy. It's not, like, even, like, the latest phone camera it looks like, you know? It's just, it's just you. Mm-hmm. And, and that's... It's this kind of authenticity to that, too.

76
00:11:32.988 --> 00:11:42.588
Um, last week in Creator Spotlight, our, uh, assistant editor, Natalia, she wrote this great piece about this and this performance about auth- of authenticity and, like, what even is authenticity?

77
00:11:42.668 --> 00:11:51.678
No one really has a good definition, but it's something. It's, you know... What, what's that classic line, uh, The Judge? Like, "Pornography, I know it when I see it." That's right. Authen- authenticity- That's right...

78
00:11:51.678 --> 00:12:01.018
is kind of like that, too. It's something you feel. Um, all of which is to ask, tell me about your approach to planning this. Are you a content calendar guy? Are you scripting? Are you...

79
00:12:01.048 --> 00:12:06.556
You've got a spreadsheet with 100 ideas. "I'm gonna do this one now." Yeah. Uh, how, how do you actually approach this?Yeah.

80
00:12:06.566 --> 00:12:16.196
So I, um, I've, I've gone both ways, and I'm sure you've seen that meme where it's like the standard deviation curve, right? And on one side, it's the person that's like, you know, "Just write it on a piece of paper."

81
00:12:16.256 --> 00:12:25.726
And then at the top, you know, fifty percent, you've got the person with the, the notion dashboards and the Zapier integrations and all these reminders apps, right? I think I'm on the other end now where I'm...

82
00:12:26.856 --> 00:12:37.606
I, I, I live in a world that I, you know, obviously content is my full-time job now, so I'm surrounded by ideas and inspiration all the time, and so my big thing is just like, get the ideas down, get the concepts down.

83
00:12:37.616 --> 00:12:40.366
And so I use just like Apple Notes, and I just type them into Notes.

84
00:12:40.736 --> 00:12:47.096
And then when I have time, when I'm sitting down like this in an office, I'll sort of scaffold those out into scripts, and then I'll sort of make the videos.

85
00:12:47.176 --> 00:12:57.816
But I think, um, on the authenticity note, I, I really think authenticity comes down to just the, the, the honesty and the specificity as well as like with a little bit of like, like vulnerability, right?

86
00:12:57.996 --> 00:13:05.085
I, I do think that sometimes some people think authenticity is just like putting less effort into the content you make, which like that's...

87
00:13:05.096 --> 00:13:10.655
Like, I put a lot of effort into the content I make in terms of the stories I'm telling and how I show up and like making sure my energy is good, right?

88
00:13:11.036 --> 00:13:16.776
But I think, uh, if, if I'm, if I don't have a story, I don't necessarily have a video, right?

89
00:13:16.856 --> 00:13:30.866
Like, I may read an article or I may come across a paper that's got a really cool statistic, but it's like if I can't make that relevant to my audience through an experience I've had or, you know, a funny like line or hook or way to get into that video, I feel like it's not, it's not ready, right?

90
00:13:30.916 --> 00:13:41.096
I'm not just sharing information here. I'm trying to be authentic, and my way of doing that is being really like honest and open and sharing pieces and parts of my life and my actual career, uh, lived experience.

91
00:13:41.196 --> 00:13:53.226
Have there been any specific structured formats or specific categories of story that like you've really zeroed in on over, over the last year or two? Oh, man. That's, um... This is a good question.

92
00:13:53.256 --> 00:13:58.556
This makes me-- The consultant mind in me is like, "Oh, yeah, I should totally scaffold that out- [laughs] -and like have a couple like different frameworks."

93
00:13:58.616 --> 00:14:07.976
But, um, no, I mean, I think it's just, um, you know, obviously the, the hook is very important, but it's like it... the, the story, the video doesn't get made without the story, I'll say.

94
00:14:08.076 --> 00:14:20.036
And so a lot of times, you know, I'm constantly reading up on, on LinkedIn and, and The New York Times and The Journal of Financial Times and all these things where like I'm trying to get the information in terms of, you know, how are people finding jobs?

95
00:14:20.136 --> 00:14:28.616
How is AI impacting the job market? What are young people struggling with? What best internships are out there right now, right? But then it's like once I get all that down, it's like, okay,

96
00:14:30.396 --> 00:14:41.296
what's a story from when I was interning? Or how did I get my first job when I was starting out, right? And so it's, it's, it's going back and stitching these statistics to actual like stories and events in my life.

97
00:14:41.396 --> 00:14:43.936
Uh, and then it's just a bit of like mimery.

98
00:14:43.996 --> 00:14:55.416
Like I like to sort of mime out how I'm gonna come across in the video, which, you know, may seem incredibly inauthentic, but I feel that, um, when I'm making the video, I don't wanna have to think about what I'm saying, but I wanna say what I wrote in the script.

99
00:14:55.436 --> 00:15:04.576
If you're gonna run a 5K, first you have to run a 5K, you know? A hundred percent. Yeah. Exactly. So that's sort of, um, at a very basic level how I think about it. But, you've, you've...

100
00:15:05.056 --> 00:15:15.416
Maybe I should go back and document some of that stuff. It's a good question. I, I'm, I'm, I'm surprised you haven't already. I'm sure you'll be helpful here. [laughs] Um, I, I'm curious about the, the jump once you...

101
00:15:15.476 --> 00:15:23.336
I know you were laid off- Yeah. Mm-hmm... from your last full-time job. Been there myself. Um- Yeah. I'm, I'm curious, we don't have to rehash that, but I'm curious about the jump then- Yeah...

102
00:15:23.416 --> 00:15:34.016
into full-time content creation, the actions you took, the, like the impacts you saw from those actions that new free time allowed or forced you to do within this work, and what impact you started to see.

103
00:15:34.896 --> 00:15:44.776
Yeah, that's right. So I, I, I think, uh, I love the way you asked that question because I was thinking in, in the moment that I realized I wasn't gonna have a job anymore, I was considering those options, right?

104
00:15:44.836 --> 00:15:54.396
Do I go back into the same industry I was in? Do I try to get back into consulting? Do I go to a startup, right? I'd had a couple people reach out just generally with no knowledge that I had lost my job.

105
00:15:54.896 --> 00:16:04.956
Or do I start content? And it was very much like those were all pretty equal decisions. Like I, I was, I was making money in content, but it was a very respectable side hustle.

106
00:16:04.965 --> 00:16:14.056
I was earning thirty to forty thousand a year, which is great money to be making on the side, but obviously as somebody with, you know, a family in Manhattan, like that can't support you, right?

107
00:16:14.066 --> 00:16:23.655
And so- That's childcare for a year. Yeah. Ex-exactly, yeah, a hundred percent. And so, uh, but, but also, since I hadn't necessarily needed it, that had been sort of a, a pseudo savings as well.

108
00:16:23.796 --> 00:16:33.556
So I had the majority of that money, you know, sort of sitting aside, so I had a little bit of a runway, you know, and I, and I thought that, look, I mean, this kid's only gonna get older.

109
00:16:33.746 --> 00:16:35.056
I'm only gonna get older, right?

110
00:16:35.436 --> 00:16:44.976
And so I think that if I wanna make that leap, um, and I had just brought on, you know, a, a, a small team of people to sort of help manage the opportunities that were coming in and pitch me for larger ones.

111
00:16:45.006 --> 00:16:47.736
And so I said, "Okay, let me choose to lean into this."

112
00:16:47.786 --> 00:17:03.966
And then I sat down with my wife and said, "Okay, I've got about six months of runway, and by the time those six months are up, if I'm not hitting the, the goalpost that I should be hitting in terms of how we, you know, support ourselves and live our lives here in New York City, um, I'll, I'll have to make other arrangements," right?

113
00:17:04.056 --> 00:17:12.336
And so that's sort of how we, how we did it. I said, "I'm gonna lean all in." Um, and, and then my approach there was to treat content like I treated my career.

114
00:17:12.366 --> 00:17:24.596
And so the sixty hours I was giving to the agency I was at or before I got let go, I was gonna put those sixty hours back into content, right? This wasn't the time to, you know, go to the beach or sulk or chill, right?

115
00:17:24.636 --> 00:17:30.176
Like I, I had a baby. I had a lot of responsibilities, right? And so I, um, I was going to networking events. I was traveling a lot.

116
00:17:30.236 --> 00:17:39.256
I was getting on informal calls with LinkedIn, people I had met, you know, and I was really trying to drum up a lot of attention and focus towards the fact that I was doing this thing full-time.

117
00:17:39.596 --> 00:17:49.916
I had a lot more availability, selling myself as a speaker, as a marketing consultant, as a career coach, right? Just doing anything and everything to sort of grow, um, the business, you know?

118
00:17:49.956 --> 00:17:56.536
And, and that's, that's, that's kinda how that decision was made. Uh, how large was your audience and on what platforms at that, at that point in time?

119
00:17:57.176 --> 00:18:09.596
Um, at that time, maybe just around like three, three sixty, three seventy in total. So pretty similar to what it is now. Now I'm just over four hundred. But yeah, so it was, it was definitely sizable.

120
00:18:09.616 --> 00:18:12.796
And again, like let's be honest here, like that was a huge part of it, right?

121
00:18:12.856 --> 00:18:23.324
I felt like, um-Based on the schedule that I was keeping, and obviously working a full-time job, I had to say no to a lot of things just 'cause I didn't have the time, but I definitely had the interest, right?

122
00:18:23.354 --> 00:18:35.224
And so that was also something in the back of my head. I was like, "Now that I'm open, I can go to this event, or I can do this deal that requires me to travel to this city on a weird Tuesday," right? And so, um, yeah.

123
00:18:35.344 --> 00:18:47.604
But I, I had around, like, maybe like s- say 350,000 total. Mm-hmm. There is one of your videos, uh, it's you teaching people how to properly use a napkin at a business dinner- [laughs]... in a formal setting. Yeah.

124
00:18:47.654 --> 00:18:57.744
Yeah. And there's this comment on there that struck me. This person says, "I hate the idea of bending to be a certain way." And you reply, "You perform social norms every day already, though."

125
00:18:57.774 --> 00:19:02.704
[laughs] And they reply, "Yeah, but that doesn't feel like a social norm to me." [laughs] "It feels very forced and superficial." Yeah.

126
00:19:02.873 --> 00:19:11.104
And, and reading that, I'm like, well, y- y- you need to be able to understand how to be in these spaces if you wanna be in these spaces, or how to move through society in this way. Correct.

127
00:19:11.124 --> 00:19:19.384
This is something that I, you know, I definitely believe. I remember before I got, like, a professional, white- let's say white collar job, I was like, "I just need to get an in.

128
00:19:19.604 --> 00:19:26.404
I need an internship or a foot in the door, and I will be able to quickly learn the codes of that world and navigate it, thrive in it, move up in it."

129
00:19:26.484 --> 00:19:36.584
Um, all of this I say, uh, to say that, like, the way that you'd built this up, the way that you'd built this image and reputation o- on LinkedIn and these other platforms, like, it was you doing this.

130
00:19:36.644 --> 00:19:43.644
And there's a phrase in your LinkedIn, um, like, the one-liner bio or whatever, the subheading, "Reach is the new resume." And- That's right...

131
00:19:43.684 --> 00:19:55.324
I, I wanna connect that to this, where, like, it's, it's a form of career protection. It's a form of, like, you, like, [laughs] you know, you saying like, "I know how to fold a napkin," or, "I know how to-" Yeah...

132
00:19:55.384 --> 00:20:03.554
you know- That's right... be or perform in these settings. Um, yeah, I just wanted to connect those few things, but tell me about this idea of reach is the new resume, and like- Yeah...

133
00:20:03.564 --> 00:20:15.074
building this up, the building up this audience as a form of career protection. Whether you were gonna do this full-time or not, it's insurance. I love the phrase career protection. Yeah, so I...

134
00:20:15.094 --> 00:20:26.724
I- it, it was about a month b- from the date I lost my job to when I first told people on the internet. And, and in that month, I'd already made the decision that I was going to do content full time, right?

135
00:20:26.753 --> 00:20:33.624
And so when I announced it, it was more so just as kinda like a, "Hey, like, the paradigm has slightly shifted. I'm still very passionate about career education.

136
00:20:33.684 --> 00:20:42.384
I'm still gonna come on here and tell you how to network and what napkin to use or what fork to use and all this stuff. Um, but just so you know, this is what's gone on," right? I gotta update my LinkedIn now, right?

137
00:20:42.944 --> 00:20:50.124
Um, and the response to that, the, the phrase reach is the new resume was something I developed in the response to that video.

138
00:20:50.134 --> 00:20:56.824
'Cause I'm literally there in the video holding my, you know, three-month-old baby, two-month-old baby saying that, "Hey, I don't have a job anymore," right?

139
00:20:56.834 --> 00:21:06.924
"And I give career advice, so follow me, you know, for more tips on how to end up exactly in this position that I'm in," right? Um, [laughs] and people wouldn't, like... Like, the, the opportunities were insane.

140
00:21:07.044 --> 00:21:13.484
I got so many DMs and texts and messages and comments from people at every big company you could hear from.

141
00:21:13.544 --> 00:21:23.024
You know, all, all the big consulting firms, all the big tech companies, big media organizations here in New York City, uh, people reaching out to, to do press and media for me and tell my story that way.

142
00:21:23.084 --> 00:21:35.144
Uh, the, the response was immense. And so I really thought that, "Hmm, because I have this audience, I've almost built a situation in which I can't lose," right?

143
00:21:35.204 --> 00:21:49.484
Even when I have something that is traditionally seen as a bad thing, you lose your job, you lose a source of income, the only source, major source of income I had, just because I had that audience, people had enough trust and faith because I was showing up consistently and delivering my knowledge, right?

144
00:21:50.064 --> 00:21:55.704
Um, and given the fact that I wasn't let go for anything performance related, I think, um, it, it really helped me.

145
00:21:55.864 --> 00:22:05.024
And so that's sort of where that phrase came from, and I see it now every day, especially on LinkedIn, of people showing up, not really having the desire to even go full time because they're, you know...

146
00:22:05.084 --> 00:22:11.794
If you work in machine learning at Meta, right, like, I think your compensation and your career trajectory, I think you're pretty happy about that, right?

147
00:22:11.824 --> 00:22:21.114
And so, uh, but they know that that's how they get the speaking and that's how, you know, maybe that's the path to a book deal, or maybe that's, you know, how they start doing, uh, like, an adjunct professorship somewhere.

148
00:22:21.144 --> 00:22:30.554
It's like it opens the door up to all these other opportunities. And so I went through that, and I saw that in my own life, and sort of that's where that phraseology sort of came from.

149
00:22:31.124 --> 00:22:39.804
Um, and I'm probably tagged now on LinkedIn, like at least three to five times a day from people sort of, like, ringing that phrase open and saying, "Oh, you know, I heard this from Cullen," which is really cool.

150
00:22:39.964 --> 00:22:45.984
The brand is strong. Um, 'cause I think it's become... Yeah, it's become a bit of a calling card for, like, the power of, uh- Mm-hmm... social media on one's career. That's awesome.

151
00:22:46.304 --> 00:22:56.184
No, I think something you said about layoffs there, too, uh, in a couple weeks I'm interviewing this woman, Melanie Ehrenkranz, who runs a newsletter called Laid Off. Um, and- Yes.

152
00:22:56.224 --> 00:22:59.254
Yeah, you- I'm subscribed to her newsletter. Exactly. Yeah. And I mean- It's awesome...

153
00:22:59.264 --> 00:23:10.384
also earlier today I read that Polygon, the Vox-owned video game, um, journalism outlet, basically I think they got acquired or something, basically everybody was laid off, right? Oh my goodness. I've been laid off.

154
00:23:10.464 --> 00:23:19.434
I was laid off a couple years ago. Like- Yeah... layoffs are just normal now. I think- That's right... the idea of, like, layoffs as a mark of shame is- That's right... is dead. It's, it's more just like- I agree...

155
00:23:19.474 --> 00:23:26.893
that's a part of the career. But that's also why it's so important to build, to, to have that reach as the new resume, right? To, to have your, your online audience.

156
00:23:26.964 --> 00:23:38.184
It's like, going back to, to that napkin comment, it's like maybe you don't want to, like, bend to this social norm and have this audience and, like, build this persona on LinkedIn. But, like, you can't...

157
00:23:38.204 --> 00:23:49.023
You have- You can't lie. Like, you have to admit it is... It works, and it's, it's, it's worth doing. Um- Definitely... no question there. Maybe just an observation. Yeah. No, I, I, I completely agree, is all I'll say.

158
00:23:49.114 --> 00:23:59.214
[laughs] Yeah. [laughs] Um, okay. So earlier you were saying that before you were let go, you, you'd made 30 to 40,000, uh- Mm-hmm... in the previous year- Yeah... from your work as a content creator.

159
00:23:59.424 --> 00:24:07.074
You don't have to tell me exactly how much you're making now. You don't strike me as that kind of guy. Uh, but I am curious all the different ways and the percentage- Mm-hmm...

160
00:24:07.144 --> 00:24:14.583
breakdown of your overall revenue pie- Mm-hmm... uh, of, of each, each way you're currently making money as a creator. Yeah. Of course.

161
00:24:14.644 --> 00:24:23.904
And so, yeah, I mean-Without giving specifics, I've definitely replaced what I was making in my last corporate role with content, which is, I think, is like an incredible blessing. Congratulations.

162
00:24:23.914 --> 00:24:32.864
Yeah, I think that's... Yeah, thank you. It's, it's been really nice. But, uh, today, probably ninety percent of my income is brand partnerships, and so these are, you know, you know what these are.

163
00:24:32.944 --> 00:24:35.324
I won't even explain what that is, right? They're brand partnerships.

164
00:24:35.764 --> 00:24:55.544
Um, a large part of, I think, what drives the number to be as high as it is, is the fact that I have, as you said, presence on multiple channels, and so with, you know, how usage and, and platform rates are, and so like I can sell a lot more on partnerships, but, you know, if you follow me on one of, of these platforms, you don't feel like it's inundated, right?

165
00:24:55.564 --> 00:25:00.044
Because, you know, I'm only doing one to two partnerships, you know, every two to three weeks, right?

166
00:25:00.054 --> 00:25:08.084
But it's across all these different channels, and so I think that's what's been really helpful for me, is having a sizable audience on like the big, you know, social media platforms of the day.

167
00:25:08.604 --> 00:25:13.234
Um, so other than that, other than brand partnerships, I would say second is digital like career guides, right?

168
00:25:13.244 --> 00:25:22.364
I've got some very low-ticket things I offer, like a goal-setting guide for twenty bucks, uh, a promotion template for ten bucks, right? Very small things to sort of help people.

169
00:25:22.924 --> 00:25:26.644
Um, and a lot of my free stuff, people give me, uh, like tips, which I think are nice.

170
00:25:26.684 --> 00:25:31.864
Like, I sell like a free like networking template, and people will toss me like three to five bucks for that, which is like really cool.

171
00:25:31.874 --> 00:25:36.824
You know, and it just feels- Well, and the direct value you get from that too is, is really less than the brand equity value you get that then allows you- Hundred percent...

172
00:25:36.834 --> 00:25:45.884
to even sell these brand partnerships, uh, for a higher ticket. One hundred percent, yeah. Exactly. That, that's a big part of it as well. And then, um, I do some public speaking.

173
00:25:46.024 --> 00:25:51.024
A lot of that is still free, but it's good, as you said, for the, for the brand building, but some of that is paid.

174
00:25:51.564 --> 00:26:00.084
Um, and then if it's the right fit and if I can figure out the timing for it, I do do, uh, coaching for like career coaching, personal branding coaching.

175
00:26:00.164 --> 00:26:12.584
Um, sometimes the brands and organizations will reach out to me too to get my POV on their creator or influencer marketing or partnership strategy and how they market organically to their audience, which I think is really nice as well.

176
00:26:12.664 --> 00:26:16.964
Um, 'cause that's not my core skill set. You know, I studied information systems and data analytics, right?

177
00:26:17.104 --> 00:26:24.884
I'm the, the R and, and Tableau and like, you know, Excel spreadsheets guy, and now I get to talk about, you know, content marketing and, and branding, which is pretty cool.

178
00:26:25.264 --> 00:26:36.204
Uh, has anything, any monetization strategies or experiments, whatever, any flops that you, you tried and it just- [laughs] Oh, like-... was not for me? I'm never doing this again. Uh, plenty of flops.

179
00:26:36.364 --> 00:26:46.554
Yeah, I, I never wanna say I don't wanna try anything again, but yeah. I, I definitely... I mean, I've, I've tried to launch courses that weren't as successful as I probably would've wanted them to be. Um, I've had...

180
00:26:47.504 --> 00:27:00.644
Last summer, the summer I got let go, uh, I did like an internship community, so for that summer, I mentored a group of people, and the community was, you know... I, I, I guess this is only a flop by my own expectations.

181
00:27:00.684 --> 00:27:08.264
Like, I had 10 or so people in there, and they were really engaged, and I actually got some really good friendships and relationships out of it. I guess I just wanted it to be a bit,

182
00:27:09.184 --> 00:27:18.784
you know, larger than it ended up being, but for the people that actually did it, actually, I guess that was actually a pretty enjoyable experience. So very time intensive, and so probably not worth, um, worth the money.

183
00:27:18.884 --> 00:27:27.464
But yeah. No, I, I think those are like probably the two big ones that I can remember, but, um, I've always been willing to just try, right? Like, if the alignment is there, right?

184
00:27:27.504 --> 00:27:33.594
Like, I don't wanna just show up and try to, you know, punch coins out of my audience, right? Yeah. Like, I wanna make sure it's like the right [laughs] opportunity.

185
00:27:34.224 --> 00:27:42.404
But, um, yeah, definitely a couple, a couple, uh, flops along the way. Uh, every-everyone's got 'em. You gotta fail to, to find the thing that works. Um- That's right...

186
00:27:42.413 --> 00:27:55.504
uh, with brand partnerships specifically, I'm sure you have inbound that you turn down, uh, because the way that your brand is and the content you do, there are specific values that you wanna adhere to.

187
00:27:55.544 --> 00:28:05.944
I'm sure things that, you know, companies that just would be a bad look for you to partner with. Tell me about the decision-making process there, um, and like what you really look for in a, in a good brand partnership.

188
00:28:06.624 --> 00:28:19.274
Totally. Yeah. So I think [sighs] the, the big thing for me is just staying away from things that, like you said, would be like a brand risk. And so, like, I don't do any crypto partnerships. I don't...

189
00:28:19.324 --> 00:28:23.204
I try to even stay away from like financial services companies unless they're like quite reputable.

190
00:28:23.234 --> 00:28:28.144
Like, I've been an Ally Bank customer for 10 years, and so when they reached out, like, of course, I'm gonna take that partnership.

191
00:28:28.704 --> 00:28:42.684
But, um, in terms of like financing and loans and some of these other financial products, like I try to stay really, really close to like what I think my audience needs and also just like the most reputable financial institutions that I can find, right, are the ones I'll take.

192
00:28:42.784 --> 00:28:50.424
Um, but yeah, for consumer products, right, like something like, um, I was able to do a, a partnership with AG1 or Athletic Greens earlier this year that I thought was really cool.

193
00:28:50.924 --> 00:28:59.164
Um, it's gotta be like something I either use in my day-to-day life right now or would, and then if not, you know, maybe something my audience would find use for, right?

194
00:28:59.244 --> 00:29:04.984
And so, like a lot of things related to, you know, job opportunities or college alternatives, right?

195
00:29:05.064 --> 00:29:19.634
Obviously, I'm not looking for a college alternative, but a lot of people in my audience are 'cause they come from non-traditional backgrounds, and so I have partnered with organizations that sort of offer different pathways into, um, white collar or even, you know, trades and, and other sort of career paths, so that's stuff I'll always do as well.

196
00:29:19.634 --> 00:29:26.664
Uh, wait. Speaking about your audience demographics for a little while- Mm-hmm... you, you're just... I mean, obviously, I'm sure a lot of people are like, you know, 16, 17, 18, they're going into college.

197
00:29:26.704 --> 00:29:33.024
They're trying to figure out, like, how do I... Not even how do I get on this path, but what are the available paths, um- Yeah...

198
00:29:33.104 --> 00:29:39.184
and you were also earlier referencing people who are, have, have been growing up with you, and maybe now they- Mm-hmm... have a kid, and, you know, they're- Mm-hmm... married, et cetera.

199
00:29:39.264 --> 00:29:46.104
They've been following you for a few years. What can you tell me? What do you know about your specific audience demographics? Yeah. No, good question.

200
00:29:46.184 --> 00:29:55.624
So the, the vast majority are in that 25 to 34 demo, um, but that has shifted over time. 'Cause when I started making content, I was 24 years old, right?

201
00:29:55.704 --> 00:30:06.624
And so my audience leaned younger, and so I've definitely seen over time the graph has sort of slowly shifted even without me trying to move it, just as I've, I don't wanna say matured. Is it... You know what I mean?

202
00:30:06.644 --> 00:30:14.994
But like, as I've gotten older and as my point of view, I guess, has changed, um- As, as sand falls through the hourglass? Yes. [laughs] That's, that's good. Yeah.

203
00:30:15.044 --> 00:30:21.164
As, as the sand has continued to fall, I guess the way I talk about things makes me more, uh, relevant to a slightly older audience.

204
00:30:21.204 --> 00:30:30.912
But-I still, I would say especially on TikTok, um, again, I think that's more so due to the fact that I started on TikTok, and my oldest, oldest, oldest videos are still on that platform.

205
00:30:31.472 --> 00:30:33.712
I do get a lot of comments from people who are like...

206
00:30:34.392 --> 00:30:44.972
I mean, I've got, you know, sixteen-year-olds in Pakistan and like eighteen-year-olds in London that send me messages of like, you know, "I've never heard of this job path," or, you know, "Living in New York sounds so cool," and like it's, um, it's really cool.

207
00:30:45.072 --> 00:30:48.912
So I, I, I respect my whole audience. And then on LinkedIn, you know, you've got, you know,

208
00:30:49.992 --> 00:30:58.852
s-sixty-four-year-olds, you know, CXOs or, you know, very high-level people that are like, uh, either in very, you know, agreement or very staunch disagreement with the post I put out, so.

209
00:30:58.972 --> 00:31:03.772
Uh, you know, the, the way- Yes... you just talked about, you said like these people saying, "Oh, living in New York seems cool."

210
00:31:04.312 --> 00:31:11.972
Um, I, you know, the way people say in like certain movies or shows like, "New York is a character." Like Sex and the City- [laughs]... it's like New York is the- Yes...

211
00:31:11.982 --> 00:31:20.582
the fifth, the fifth lady in that show or whatever. [laughs] Do you, uh, uh, do you think that's like a big part of your appeal? Like, would you be able to do this if you were living in another city?

212
00:31:20.652 --> 00:31:26.912
Would your audience be small? Would it be different? Um, I'm not sure- I think-... if you thought about this. I haven't really thought about this kind of thing before. Yeah.

213
00:31:27.072 --> 00:31:36.972
I think, I, I mean, it would have to be different. It's, it's such a part of my specific story. I mean, I'm, you know... My dad's from Mississippi, my mom's from Atlanta. I grew up just outside of Atlanta in the suburbs.

214
00:31:37.052 --> 00:31:42.772
But like, yeah, I, I moved to New York City with a suitcase, as I mentioned earlier. And so like- Yeah... I started my whole career here.

215
00:31:42.892 --> 00:31:52.712
I worked at one of the most prestigious consulting firms, you know, in, in their head office. You know, had a view of the entire city, working outside of the Rockefeller building. Mm. Like it was, it was really nice.

216
00:31:52.732 --> 00:32:01.992
You know, it, it was a really nice, um, looking, uh, I'll say, experience, right? And so [laughs] I think it definitely is a big part of my story because I've, I've leaned into that.

217
00:32:02.072 --> 00:32:11.372
But if my story was different, I'd like to think that I would lean into whatever my, my life looked like, right? But, um, yeah, I'm not gonna deny the, uh, the New York privilege- [laughs]... uh, of growing my audience.

218
00:32:11.512 --> 00:32:19.612
And f- honestly, from a, from a brand and like partnerships standpoint as well, right? You wanna do PR events, you wanna go to cool conferences and events.

219
00:32:19.672 --> 00:32:27.362
I mean, what other place is doing more stuff, maybe like LA, right, than New York City? So. No, New York, New York's the mecca of, of money and success. [laughs] Right.

220
00:32:27.362 --> 00:32:34.672
Whether, whether those things are synonymous to the viewer or not. Um- That's right. Okay. Kinda, this question kind of overlaps, so I'll ask these together.

221
00:32:34.712 --> 00:32:43.732
You mentioned earlier that, you know, you translated your 60-hour work weeks at your previous job into, into this work. So I'm curious how that breaks down, you know, 20 hours to this, 20 hours to that, whatever.

222
00:32:44.152 --> 00:32:48.232
Uh, but also you mentioned this team that you've built around yourself, and so I'm curious how that relates, too.

223
00:32:48.272 --> 00:32:59.172
So basically, what the, what, [laughs] what, what the all the work is that goes into the business of being Cullen rocker, and- Mm... um, and how that's broken down both in your time and people you have working with you.

224
00:32:59.872 --> 00:33:02.252
Yes, yes, yes. Uh, I love this question.

225
00:33:02.292 --> 00:33:19.272
So I would say that the best decision I've ever made throughout this whole process was, uh, going under management, and so I started working with a talent manager in late '23, basically '24, 2024 is the first full year, and then obviously I, I worked with- Basically like two months after, after you started doing this full time.

226
00:33:20.012 --> 00:33:29.952
Yeah. Yeah. It, it happened very quickly. Um, yeah, absolutely. And so I, I, um, I've been working with him, and he obviously does a lot of, uh, outreach and pitching, right?

227
00:33:30.172 --> 00:33:40.222
Um, he does a lot of business conceptualizing as well, and so he's also like a, a bit of a thought partner. So when I have an idea for something like, um, I've got these networking events I throw in New York City, right?

228
00:33:40.232 --> 00:33:46.132
And so we're thinking of ways to like partner with brands on that. Um, and he obviously handles a lot of the contracting and negotiation.

229
00:33:46.542 --> 00:33:53.212
And so most of my time is focused on, you know, creative production and like engagement, right?

230
00:33:53.252 --> 00:34:02.552
And so I, whether it's ego or stupidity or I like to think, you know, care, like I like to control the en- Good old human nature. Yeah, exactly.

231
00:34:02.932 --> 00:34:11.132
I, I like to control the full creative process of my content, and so the, from the, the concepting to the size of the captions on the video, like that's, that's all me.

232
00:34:11.232 --> 00:34:21.232
I've, I've worked with editors in the past for very specific and like, you know, called out things. Um, but 99% of my videos, I'm the person. It's my thumbs, it's my, you know, keystrokes or whatever.

233
00:34:21.892 --> 00:34:29.912
Um, and then yeah, it's the, it's the engagement and sort of staying in tune. Um, and I like to dedicate a big part of my day to what I call just, you know,

234
00:34:30.872 --> 00:34:33.612
biz dev or just like, like seeking out new opportunities, right?

235
00:34:33.672 --> 00:34:44.672
Whether that's press, whether that's people I wanna meet, whether it's having calls with people that I met in an event but I didn't really get to connect with, um, and just like making sure my name is out there, honestly.

236
00:34:44.832 --> 00:34:52.452
Um, a big part of my strategy for the business is like wherever you go, I want you to see Cullen Rocker, basically.

237
00:34:52.492 --> 00:34:59.992
And so it's like if there's an event happening on career, on first gen, on personal branding and marketing, like I wanna be associated with that.

238
00:35:00.032 --> 00:35:09.832
And so a lot of my outreach is to people who run events, people who have communities, people who are moving and shaking in the industry, right, at big publications- Mm... just making them aware of my existence.

239
00:35:10.392 --> 00:35:18.722
Um, and so that's the big thing. And then I've got an accountant as well for all the, the boring, uh, tax stuff. So. That's why they call him Career Cullen. He's everywhere- Yeah... where career, [laughs] careers are.

240
00:35:18.792 --> 00:35:21.152
That's right. I, I wanna be. Yeah. Yeah, absolutely.

241
00:35:21.212 --> 00:35:49.192
Um, so speaking of your ambitions, though, uh, when we were defining creator earlier, too, and the way you were defining it sounds like your ambition is for your work as a creator, like maybe you do keep doing it, you know, forever, uh, certain, maybe, maybe not the 60 hours a week or not that it's the full 60 hours, but my point is it's clear to me that you wanna build a distribution platform for other t- uh, forms of monetization and that brand deals, you don't want brand deals to be 90% of your revenue forever.

242
00:35:49.332 --> 00:35:52.932
You have ambitions for them- Correct... to be a, a certain smaller portion of the pie.

243
00:35:53.052 --> 00:36:05.272
So tell me about those ambitions, maybe both more near term, like let's say within the next three years, uh, but even dreaming big, next 10, 20 years too. I'm curious how you're thinking about it long term. Yeah.

244
00:36:05.352 --> 00:36:16.012
So I mean, my, my biggest ambition is to be like the, the physical manifestation of what I wish I had in my life when I was 18 to 22 years old, right?

245
00:36:16.042 --> 00:36:28.664
And so whether that's, you know, we're talking, like that's expanding the brand, and so I'd love to speak more about and gain an audience that's more focused on like these aspects of like personal finance, wealth preservation-...

246
00:36:28.674 --> 00:36:35.034
family, you know, and, and all these other things where it's like I didn't necessarily have that education or perspective in my own household, right?

247
00:36:35.404 --> 00:36:41.344
And so it's not only just career and making money, but then what do you do with that money and how do you build an actual life you wanna live, right?

248
00:36:41.964 --> 00:36:51.404
Um, and so I think it's like expansion of the, the brand as like a platform, so where people are coming to me for more than just how to get a job, but also how to build like a life, right? Mm-hmm.

249
00:36:51.784 --> 00:37:00.524
And then I think, um, as far as like discrete things, um, I'm doing these networking events that I love. Um, they're... I get a lot out of them, but also events are, are big business, right?

250
00:37:00.584 --> 00:37:17.204
And I think, um, if, you know, you're obviously very well-read in the creator economy, and so it's like a big trend that we're seeing is creators are building their own communities, right, with IRL events, on digital platforms like your Slacks and your Discords and all these things, and finding ways to go deeper with their audience.

251
00:37:17.624 --> 00:37:24.404
And so that's like building out the newsletter. That's my own digital community that I'm launching soon that's kinda connected to the networking events that I'm hosting.

252
00:37:25.104 --> 00:37:34.524
Um, and I'm launching a book, uh, which, you know, not, uh... I, I'm not giving too many details out, but it, it is written, and so I'm working with an editor and a publisher to sort of refine that message.

253
00:37:34.984 --> 00:37:37.144
Um, and once that comes out, I wanna be a lot more,

254
00:37:38.344 --> 00:37:46.804
uh, honestly, on the road, and I wanna build my presence as like a public speaker and like a, a, a consultant and coach for the specific things I'm talking about in the book.

255
00:37:46.834 --> 00:37:49.924
And so those are sort of the things that I'm really working on. Mm.

256
00:37:49.984 --> 00:38:01.304
But, um, to be honest, it's like the true success for me is actually being able to play the game and, you know, same thing as earlier, I'm sure half of your audience is probably throwing up, but it's like, like I never thought I'd be here.

257
00:38:01.684 --> 00:38:03.984
You know what I mean? It's like I, you know... Yeah.

258
00:38:04.064 --> 00:38:12.244
My, my whole story and how I got to this point, it's like none of this was necessarily planned out when I was 18 years old, but I'm here now, and I love the life that I've built.

259
00:38:12.604 --> 00:38:23.084
And so the fact that I get to wake up every day and think of ways to create things that other people can find useful in their work and in their life, I mean, I can't imagine a life that's better than that, right?

260
00:38:23.104 --> 00:38:28.984
And so I would like to continue doing this and to build it and to grow it as much as I can. Yeah. I'm...

261
00:38:29.564 --> 00:38:40.193
On a more reflective note, I like, when I think about where I come from and my parents, you know, it's a small far- small farm, small organic farm. They own it, uh, and nobody's taking it over. Mm-hmm.

262
00:38:40.193 --> 00:38:45.824
My sister is, has started her own farm, right? Mm-hmm. But my parents are gonna have to sell their farm soon. They're getting old. Mm.

263
00:38:45.904 --> 00:38:56.184
Um, they won't get a ton of money for it, maybe a bit of money for the land too, you know. Mm. Uh, but they've been doing this great work for 40-some years, m- growing amazing organic food, flowers.

264
00:38:56.644 --> 00:39:05.994
Thousands of people in their community- It's awesome... eats it, right? Like, that is so amazing to me, but I saw them working seven days a week. Yeah. Not a ton of money in it. Yeah.

265
00:39:06.044 --> 00:39:11.374
I was like, "I don't wanna work seven days a week, and I-" [laughs] "... want to have more money than we did growing up." That's right.

266
00:39:11.524 --> 00:39:20.924
Um, and I think, you know, we're, me and you are kind of aligned in a similar way here. Uh, but sometimes I wonder, I'm like, you know, like, what am I doing here?

267
00:39:20.964 --> 00:39:30.374
I'm making media, like, hopefully trying to make the world- [laughs]... a better place. Like, my, a, a core goal for me is like the number of people participating in the creator economy is going to go up. Mm.

268
00:39:30.404 --> 00:39:34.544
The n- the amount of information around there, or, or out there is going to increase exponentially.

269
00:39:34.584 --> 00:39:42.964
Maybe through my little intervention, I can increase the quality somehow and, like, the way people treat each other within this world. Um, and a- Mm... again, I think for you it's a similar thing.

270
00:39:43.484 --> 00:39:50.674
Uh, it sounds like where you're going with this is it's less just about career, but it's more about, like, building a stable life, uh- Mm-hmm...

271
00:39:50.704 --> 00:40:00.584
financially, I think is the core root of it, and career is just a proxy for that. Maybe, maybe I'm, I've got that wrong. I don't know. But, um, what I'm curious is if you ever like,

272
00:40:01.524 --> 00:40:06.664
like how you relate back to that, your dad being a plumber, your first job being- Mm-hmm... at Chick-fil-A. Like- Mm.

273
00:40:06.674 --> 00:40:15.174
[laughs] Uh, 'cause for me I'm like, you know, that's such good work that has this clear impact, and sometimes- Mm... I feel this type of work is more abstracted- Mm...

274
00:40:15.184 --> 00:40:21.654
and I, you know, not that it totally keeps me up at night, but it's something- Yeah... I sometimes I'm like, should I have taken over the farm? Like, would I be...

275
00:40:22.324 --> 00:40:32.524
Is that a, is that more impactful growing amazing organic food- Oh, man... than doing this? Um, so I'll, I'll stop there, but I'm curious if, if you kind of [chuckles] ever think about this kind of thing. Yeah.

276
00:40:32.664 --> 00:40:40.294
Oh, my goodness. You're, you're getting to the crux. I think, um... Look, I mean, on a very real level, I, I've spent a lot of time working with my dad when I was younger. Mm.

277
00:40:40.304 --> 00:40:44.524
Those were my summer vac- vacations, is when I'd wake up at 6:00 AM and go with him to the job site.

278
00:40:45.184 --> 00:40:55.064
And, uh, I'll just tell you in a few words, I don't think I'm cut out for the plumbing lifestyle, uh, or, you know, that's what my dad told me. [laughs] Um, so I, I don't think that was ever necessarily the cards for me.

279
00:40:55.284 --> 00:40:59.024
Well, you're quite good at this, so- But, uh [laughs]... it works out. Exactly. Exactly.

280
00:40:59.124 --> 00:41:09.704
But, um, I, I think to, to your point, though, that's where, I guess the way I see that is it, it makes me all the more, like, grateful for the life that I've built because I'm very aware of the alternatives. Mm. Right?

281
00:41:09.924 --> 00:41:20.104
I mean, my, you know, um, my older brother, uh, when he graduated high school, he ended up going into the Air Force, and then a couple years later he ended up passing in, in that service.

282
00:41:20.264 --> 00:41:30.744
Uh, my sister still lives, um, in our, in our hometown, you know, and, and she's had her own, her own journey through life, um, but hasn't, you know, matriculated through like a four-year college program or something.

283
00:41:30.804 --> 00:41:41.854
And so for me, it's like looking at my family and my journey and, like, where I've been able to get to, I think it gives me the gratitude and the, the, the go forward to just keep- Yeah...

284
00:41:41.884 --> 00:41:49.644
doing this because it's like, you know, you... Like, I know what the alternatives are, right? And I think I like this, I know I like this, um, a, a hell of a lot more.

285
00:41:49.674 --> 00:42:04.524
And to be honest with you, it's a big thing I get out of getting out of, you know, this, this office and in my apartment and sort of going out into the world and, like, like meeting people and talking to people because that keeps me current and, like, relevant and again, like, like grounded, right?

286
00:42:04.594 --> 00:42:16.814
'Cause I think as, as a, as a full-time content creator, there's a very easy way, like now that I am one, you see how it happens, where it's like you just sit in your room and you just make little videos every day, and it's like I, I don't ever wanna just, like- Yeah...

287
00:42:16.864 --> 00:42:19.854
I don't want content to be the only thing I'm creating, right? Mm.

288
00:42:19.854 --> 00:42:32.464
I wanna go out there and, like, have a conversation with someone, um, and actually, like, have an interaction, right, with people and feel like I'm doing more than just, uh, sending, you know-Creative assets out into the, into the ether.

289
00:42:32.724 --> 00:42:39.884
So Yeah. Uh, thank you for sharing. I... That was-- I, I honestly got a little emotional there. I, I, I f- I relate to you fully too on that. Like, I,

290
00:42:41.064 --> 00:42:50.423
you know, being, being in New York too and like going out and being in the world and going back to your events, that seems to be a really impactful thing, and you spoke about- Yeah...

291
00:42:50.514 --> 00:42:57.314
the internship aspect and how like, uh, the intern community and how that didn't really work out so well, but now you're finding something that is.

292
00:42:57.484 --> 00:43:05.064
And going back into this impact, what we were just talking about and like- Mm-hmm... how, like, w- uh, what-- does this work really bring that value to the world?

293
00:43:05.644 --> 00:43:21.344
Um, I think that's a big reason why events and, you know, are be- are becoming more popular is because it's so much more high impactful on a person dep- on an individual person level, um, than, you know, somebody watching your video, and they're like, "That's nice."

294
00:43:21.564 --> 00:43:28.984
Maybe they're motivated. Maybe they don't really act on anything. Yeah. At an event, you act on these things. You make connections. You build- That's right... this life, right?

295
00:43:29.464 --> 00:43:43.944
Um, so tell me more about how you're actually making that work this time in your, th-th-this new intention around events and community building will be successful in a way that that early, um, internship cohort was, was not as successful for you.

296
00:43:44.604 --> 00:43:56.104
Yeah. So I think with the intern cohort, it was... I felt like it wasn't as like, uh, branded or defined or, I guess, purposeful. Yeah. It wasn't as purposeful as the, as the community.

297
00:43:56.164 --> 00:44:07.164
So my, my, uh, networking events, which I, I call it a professional meetup club because I do want it to feel more like a meetup than like a networking, like, standard event, right?

298
00:44:07.204 --> 00:44:16.074
Where you get your little sticky name tag, you're in business casual, you walk up to someone and give them a firm handshake. Club implies continuation. Exactly. Club com- implies continuation.

299
00:44:16.104 --> 00:44:22.964
It, it, it hints at exclusivity, but it's not really exclusive. Um, you just have to show up as yourself, right, and then congratulations, you're in. [laughs] Right?

300
00:44:23.424 --> 00:44:32.784
But I think, um, the naming of it was chosen very intentionally, and it's called For the First- Mm... because I wanted to expand the platform of the idea what a first is, right?

301
00:44:32.844 --> 00:44:38.644
Because when people hear first-gen, it's like, okay, first-gen student, first-gen American, like people, like, understand what that is.

302
00:44:39.203 --> 00:44:43.644
But a lot of people show up to my events, and they're the first people to, uh, move to New York City. Yeah.

303
00:44:43.654 --> 00:44:49.944
Or the first people to earn six figures or go into this specific field or raise money and do their startup, right? And so

304
00:44:50.964 --> 00:44:57.014
you lose track of all the things you do that are the first in your family, but you don't realize, like, you're having to do them all alone. Yeah.

305
00:44:57.024 --> 00:45:05.084
And so that's why the community exists, to bring these people together that are out here every day chasing something very different from what anyone else in their family has done.

306
00:45:05.444 --> 00:45:10.444
But they're looking for ways to connect with other people, but also feel like, like at home and, like, welcomed, right?

307
00:45:10.484 --> 00:45:22.424
And so that's, like, the, the why behind the community, and I feel like the internship community was like, "Let me help you navigate through your internship," which was like- This was more a w- like you to them connection, whereas this is more like- Exactly...

308
00:45:22.444 --> 00:45:31.764
we are in this together. Exactly. Exactly. And, and I've created something where, like, I'm not, um, the most important person- Right... which I think is really good.

309
00:45:32.184 --> 00:45:36.244
Like, the internship community was like, "Come and learn from me at the mountaintop," right? Yeah.

310
00:45:36.264 --> 00:45:45.824
Whereas, like, this thing is like people are self-organizing inside the community based on other sub interests that they really, really like that I'm starting to see now, and I'm like, "Wow, that is so cool."

311
00:45:45.884 --> 00:45:52.484
That's community. That's when community is actually happening is when that happens. Exactly. It's not, like, an influence for me. Like, no one shows up because I'm there, right?

312
00:45:52.564 --> 00:45:57.574
Half the people that show up, like, have no idea who I am, but I'm just like- You are just a facilitator. Yeah... C-correct, which is what I want, right? Yeah.

313
00:45:57.604 --> 00:46:04.824
Like, I don't want people, you know, coming up and asking, you know, me questions. Like, but yeah, people are, um... I mean, that still happens, and that's fine. But- Well, it's like that, what's his name? Yeah.

314
00:46:04.944 --> 00:46:13.773
Uh, Seth Godin, I think, the marketing guy. Mm-hmm. Uh- The tribes guy? Uh, yeah. U-his whole thing. Yeah. Uh, people like us do things like this, right? Like, that's kinda what you're describing to me with this Firsts.

315
00:46:13.804 --> 00:46:17.124
Oh, I like that. Yes. Yeah, it's one of his- Yes, yes, yes... principles.

316
00:46:17.204 --> 00:46:27.194
Um, another thing that I wanted to make sure we touched on before, before this ends, uh, your newsletter, which I think is called, um, Weekly All Hands, right? Yes. Which [laughs] I love, because again- [laughs]...

317
00:46:27.194 --> 00:46:35.384
it's that community thing of this, of us being in this together. Uh, as far as I know, what I could find looking back, you started this eight months ago. Um- Yes...

318
00:46:35.424 --> 00:46:43.244
curious why you started that, what the goals were, how it's going. Yeah. So I started a newsletter because my manager said I should have one.

319
00:46:43.504 --> 00:46:59.124
[laughs] So [laughs] not the, not the most, uh, you know, uh, insightful of, of startings, but it's, it's been fun because I think, um, you know, there's this whole quote, I think it's Stephen King maybe said it or somebody, where it's like, "If you're not a clear thinker, you can't be a clear writer," right?

320
00:46:59.154 --> 00:47:02.084
And so I- Yeah. Well, writing is thinking, in my opinion. Correct. Exactly.

321
00:47:02.144 --> 00:47:12.324
And so it's been a fun challenge for me because you can sort of vis- you can always verbally process, which is what we've been doing for the last hour, but it's like when it's the written word, like it's sort of...

322
00:47:12.344 --> 00:47:21.864
It's just a slightly different skill, right? Yeah. And so it's been good to work on that, and then it allows me to go deeper on things where I can't necessarily in a 60-second video get across.

323
00:47:21.944 --> 00:47:30.604
And so in that newsletter, you're getting career advice, of course. You're getting visuals, and so I always pick a couple cool photos from my camera roll that I throw in there.

324
00:47:30.684 --> 00:47:37.644
Um, I've started something called, like, the, the, the Career Creator Corner. [laughs] And so people that are- That's a mouthful... working... Yes, exactly.

325
00:47:37.984 --> 00:47:45.504
So people that, you know, have jobs that basically wanna do some version of what I do, right? And use that reach as a new resume and grow their presence, right? Like, I'm giving tips there.

326
00:47:46.144 --> 00:47:52.284
Um, I'm sharing like a playlist of, like, songs I listen to when I'm working or editing or going through emails, right? That people really like.

327
00:47:52.384 --> 00:48:01.254
Um, and there's like a portion in there that's like an AMA, and so people ask me questions in my IG stories, um, and I'll pick a couple of them, and then I'll answer them in that newsletter.

328
00:48:01.264 --> 00:48:12.284
And that content is only in that newsletter. And so obviously it's free to subscribe, but like you're getting something that you're not getting in my other content. So yeah. Have you, um...

329
00:48:12.344 --> 00:48:19.834
If you haven't heard this, you might dig this. Have you ever heard of this idea of content capital? No. So, so I got this, uh, this woman, Kate Eichhorn, wrote this book- Okay...

330
00:48:19.844 --> 00:48:26.044
called Content, part of the MIT Press series. I read it a few months ago. I wrote this essay on it for, for the new, for the Creative Spotlight newsletter.

331
00:48:26.584 --> 00:48:35.264
Um, and I riffed on her idea a little bit, but the idea here is that content capital is your reach, your following, your ability to distribute information to people on the internet.

332
00:48:35.564 --> 00:48:48.336
Um-Where I kind of took it is, like, content capital is really, you know, leaning into the capital aspect, is the only, the only, um, full... The only truly liquid form of content capital is an email list.

333
00:48:48.436 --> 00:48:55.996
It's, is a CSV- Mm-hmm... that you can export- Mm-hmm... and you've got all these people, right? And so- Mm-hmm... I trust that's kind of what happened here, is you have this 400,000-plus following.

334
00:48:56.336 --> 00:49:07.516
I don't know if you're promoting the newsletter in any paid way or anything, but to me it seems like it is a form of, uh, liquidating the content capital that you've built across your, your social followings. Yeah.

335
00:49:07.526 --> 00:49:20.136
And it's, you know, your most engaged followers, most- Yeah... engaged members of your audience then come into this, and now you have, you have this, this email list with them. I love that. Yeah. Ex- exactly.

336
00:49:20.156 --> 00:49:28.636
And so I, I have noticed where it's like people will respond to it or it's like, um, with the platform I use, I can always see, like, what specific links people are clicking on, you know?

337
00:49:29.216 --> 00:49:37.596
Um, and so that's always nice to see what people... And, and by and large, though, the, the, the links that people click on the most are the ones where I'm talking about or promoting the in-person events.

338
00:49:37.676 --> 00:49:46.916
Because like you said, I mean, that's a... I guess I didn't put two and two together, but, like, my most engaged followers are the most likely ones to show up in person at an event, right?

339
00:49:46.976 --> 00:49:54.256
And so, um, and that totally plays out in the data that I'm seeing. So yeah, you just, uh, you answered a question for me, so thank you. Oh, happy to be of help.

340
00:49:54.286 --> 00:50:02.246
[laughs] Uh, one more thing that I've been thinking about recently and that you mentioned on your episode of the 9to5 Quitters Club podcast. Mm-hmm.

341
00:50:02.246 --> 00:50:09.296
Uh, this is something that came up when I was speaking to the guest, uh, on this week's episode as we speak, the Creator Spotlight podcast, Adam Biddlecombe.

342
00:50:09.736 --> 00:50:19.446
He was talking about how over the last two years he grew his LinkedIn audience from zero to now it's... When I spoke to him, it was 200K. 13 days later, it was 212K. Oh, my goodness.

343
00:50:19.446 --> 00:50:21.506
Um, today I'm sure it's, like, 220-something.

344
00:50:22.056 --> 00:50:33.236
Okay, so he spoke about how when he was just starting to build it, you know, you look at some of these big creators and you, y- y- you wanna take the formats they're doing maybe, but you don't wanna do the style.

345
00:50:33.296 --> 00:50:40.026
These bigger creators have more leeway to post more, like, uh, you know, general advice and, like, lifestyle stuff. Mm-hmm.

346
00:50:40.026 --> 00:50:49.336
When you're a smaller creator, you need to be posting the really educational stuff, the niche stuff. But once you get bigger, you can start, um, posting more of these, these generalized things.

347
00:50:49.356 --> 00:50:57.595
And you were speaking on this on the 9to5 Quitters Club. You said that at the beginning it was all, I'm gonna quote you, "It was all niche, all topic, every single video, tip, tip, tip, tip, tip."

348
00:50:57.896 --> 00:51:06.036
But that now you found this whole other side of your audience and self recently where you've been getting more comfortable with being vul- more vulnerable. And to me, this mapped...

349
00:51:06.196 --> 00:51:17.256
I in- instantly thought of what Adam had said, of like, you need to be more educational at the beginning, but as you get bigger, you want to be more, um, more... You can get more general and more, like, about yourself.

350
00:51:17.896 --> 00:51:24.816
So I'm curious, uh, if, if you've, if that was, like, if you really noticed that as you grew or more natural or how this came to be. Yeah.

351
00:51:24.896 --> 00:51:34.216
I think, um, o- on a very realistic level, I mean, there is also an aspect of this of like, you know, the, the well only has so much water as well, right?

352
00:51:34.256 --> 00:51:43.096
And so it's like in the interim when you're really looking for, you know, maybe the next really great source of things to really talk about in your audience because I'm not...

353
00:51:43.136 --> 00:51:50.096
The content I'm making isn't editorial, right? I'm not just, like, reporting on the news. I'm trying to, like, bring you stories and experiences from my life, right?

354
00:51:50.136 --> 00:51:57.836
But the, the, the schedule of, I mean, every week across platform, I've got 35 different posts to come up with, right, um, that I'm posting to all these different channels.

355
00:51:57.846 --> 00:52:03.516
Thir- is that, that's how much you're putting out every week, 35 posts to come up with? Across channels. It doesn't mean 35 unique pieces of content.

356
00:52:03.796 --> 00:52:10.516
So some of that is short form that's posted across, but yes, it is, it's 35 pieces across, um, all platforms, which is crazy. Um,

357
00:52:11.976 --> 00:52:19.276
but I think, yes, talking about myself because you have to, you have to take your followers on a journey and it's like the,

358
00:52:20.176 --> 00:52:31.716
the content that you post about yourself may get higher engagement, but it typically doesn't get higher reach because people don't know you, right? And so I think, yes, it, it makes very sense to me in, in retrospect.

359
00:52:31.756 --> 00:52:38.156
Again, I didn't know this starting out, but it's like once you have that audience of a couple hundred thousand, yeah, toss in some personal anecdotes, right?

360
00:52:38.216 --> 00:52:47.076
Those won't be the things that ideally will continue to grow your account because, you know, you can't just hop on someone's page and you're talking about something they have no context for. But, like,

361
00:52:48.216 --> 00:53:00.496
sharing those personal stories helped me build, like, a, a, a somewhat, like, deeper audience, and then questions and, and additional things come out of that where I can then dive into, uh, maybe more like, you know, niche-adjacent stuff.

362
00:53:00.936 --> 00:53:03.396
Um, but now I try to, I try to do my best to blend the two.

363
00:53:03.456 --> 00:53:11.156
But yeah, I would say it was, like you said, it was about two and a half, three years before I even thought about bringing anything, like, personal into the content I was making. Yeah.

364
00:53:11.316 --> 00:53:16.536
You kind of have to earn the, not the right, but, like, the ability to be able to, to put in that kind of content.

365
00:53:16.626 --> 00:53:24.036
And another side too is, like, the, the tips and such, I, I, I don't know if you find this in your work, but I find in this work too, like, there's only so many tips.

366
00:53:24.116 --> 00:53:34.736
You know, there's only so many ways to grow a newsletter audience and to, like, talk about that. So I try to get into that every time. But like, the, we, I, this, this can't be a whole show every week about just that.

367
00:53:34.816 --> 00:53:39.356
It would get very boring, and I wouldn't- Correct... retain a lot of listeners 'cause it would get very repetitive very quickly.

368
00:53:39.676 --> 00:53:50.316
And I'm, I'm sort of like, my, my evolving hypothesis and perspective on content and creators in general is that we are in the post-information economy. Like, information's free.

369
00:53:50.356 --> 00:54:00.056
We can all get it with all these LLMs and all these tools, right? And so it's like I, I truly don't think people follow me because I've got the best career advice out there. I was let go, right?

370
00:54:00.116 --> 00:54:08.376
And so it's like clearly that's not the case. But it's about forming that relationship and then speaking from that level of expertise, right, where I'm telling you

371
00:54:09.336 --> 00:54:20.496
how to navigate a corporate space, build wealth, and build a life you actually enjoy living from my perspective and my lived experience, right? I'm not telling you how to raise a $10 million Series A.

372
00:54:20.516 --> 00:54:24.616
I'm not telling you how to manage a department of 250 people, right? I haven't done those things.

373
00:54:25.016 --> 00:54:33.576
But I feel like, um, in this area we're at, that's the power of a creator because I can speak to my story better than anyone else can, and that's what's enabled me.

374
00:54:33.616 --> 00:54:40.756
It's like the videos where I'm talking to one person go the most viral because they're the most unique, right? There's no content out there that's really like that.

375
00:54:40.776 --> 00:54:49.216
The information might be a commodity, but the alpha is, is you. That's right. Yeah. Um, I think we'll end it there. This has been really a pleasure speaking with you.

376
00:54:49.296 --> 00:55:01.216
Uh, is there anything else you would like to leave our listeners with or anything you'd like to plug? Um, I don't think so. I mean, obviously you can find me on the internet at, uh, @careercolon or colonrocker.

377
00:55:01.316 --> 00:55:09.016
Um, but no, I mean, I, I really enjoyed the conversation and, uh, yeah, I thank you. Yeah. Thank you for coming on. And listener, I will see you next week.

378
00:55:13.796 --> 00:55:23.916
[outro jingle]