I was posting workout videos that nobody was watching. I was posting business news content that nobody was watching. I was trying to be motivational and motivating nobody. Career advice kinda came naturally to me.
And now you have a hundred twenty-one thousand on TikTok, two hundred and thirty-eight K on Instagram, twenty K on LinkedIn. The brand is strong. Giving career advice got me to my first one hundred thousand followers.
Because I have this audience, I've almost built a situation in which I can't lose. Reach is the new resume. One hundred percent. We're in the post-information economy. Like, information's free.
We can all get it with all these LLMs and all these tools, right? That's the power of a creator because I can speak to my story better than anyone else can, and that's what's enabled me.
It's like the video doesn't get made without the story. Tell me about those ambitions. Wherever you go, I want you to see Cullen rocker. Welcome back to the Creator Spotlight podcast. My name is Francis Zehrer.
Today, we're speaking with Cullen rocker, a creator focused on career and corporate content with a particular mission to educate the next generation of young professionals. Cullen, thank you for coming on. Of course.
Yeah, thank you for having me. Yes, of course. Um, okay, so as I understand it, your content creator career in earnest begins with TikTok in twenty twenty. You're skeptical of the app. You download it.
You're up till two AM. You're like, "Oh, wait, actually, there's something here. How can I take advantage of this?"
Um, and now you have a hundred twenty-one thousand on TikTok, uh, two hundred and thirty-eight K on Instagram, twenty K on LinkedIn, a few others on some of the other platforms.
Tell me about the start, what you were-- like, your first, your first toe in the water. What were you doing? Like, you're like, "I-- There's something here for me. I'm gonna figure out what it is." What did you try?
Yeah, of course. So in, in twenty twenty, as we all know, we were, we were home.
People were rethinking a lot of things in their life in terms of where their careers were going, and a lot of my friends were switching jobs, right?
And for whatever reason, in my group of friends, people always came to me for that career advice in terms of how to prepare for this interview, what to do on their resume, how to set up their LinkedIn profile.
Uh, and so I said, "You know what?
I'm getting a lot of the same types of questions, and so let me just put this content out there on TikTok," that I had recently, as you said, fallen in love with after I, uh, took my, my girlfriend up on downloading it at the time and, uh, you know, was up, uh, until very, very early the next morning checking it out.
Um, but I, I originally actually started on TikTok doing a lot of things actually. I, I was posting workout videos that nobody was watching. I was posting business news content that nobody was watching.
I was trying to be motivational and motivating nobody, right? And so, uh, I, I kind of, uh- Demotivating yourself even, I'm sure. Exactly. Exactly. Uh, uh, I was demotivating myself acr-ac-across the process.
But no, I think, um, career advice kinda came naturally to me, and we were at a point where people were looking for something different on TikTok, formerly Musical.ly, right?
And so that kinda content was, was at the time very new.
People weren't expecting you to have a, a thirty-second video on how to prepare for a job interview, and so I think that kinda content really, um, took off as younger people were, you know, becoming more of age and figuring out, you know, what they wanted to do in their careers.
The norms of the platform hadn't really calcified yet, and you got in- Mm-hmm... at such a time where you could contribute to that. Absolutely. Yeah. Yeah.
Um, you've spoken, too, about how it took then, I think, a couple years-- I don't know if this includes, like, the early, even, like, the workout content, et cetera, but how it took a couple years of you starting to do, I think, this, this business-focused career advice type of content specifically until you understood, like, "Oh, this first generation professional, it's like that's my brand.
That's who I serve." Right. "That's what will really... Like, uh, naming that and branding that is what will really, like, contribute to my growth."
Tell me about realizing that and then, like, beginning to execute on that and form that brand. Of course, yeah. So I think, um,
giving career advice got me to my first one hundred thousand followers, and that took, you know, a period of probably two years to do that on TikTok.
And I was starting to get a little burnt out, and I, I couldn't, I couldn't answer the question of why someone would watch my content versus someone else's content because at this time, there were other people making career-focused content, and they were getting big.
And I obviously enjoyed what I was doing. I was starting to make a little money on the side, obviously on the side of my, my corporate job at that time, and I was like, "How do I make myself stand out?"
And so-- But, but to do it in a way that felt authentic and, like, honest, right?
And so I spent a lot of time, like a couple months probably, having a lot of conversations with myself around what makes me different, what makes me unique, and what POV or perspective could I bring to this that isn't necessarily being talked about as much.
And so I leaned into the things, uh, that I thought, you know, stood out to me. And so for me, it's this whole notion of, yeah, my dad was a plumber with a high school education.
My mother, uh, never had any corporate experience. And so when I started that job, you know, not only did I have to move to New York with one suitcase, and I slept in an attic 'cause I didn't have any money.
I was eating dollar slice pizza, right? But then once I started my corporate career, I didn't know what PTL was. I didn't know how to actually navigate my career path.
I didn't know, uh, how to, how to self-promote, right? I had to deal with my scarcity mindset. I mean, there were a whole bunch of things that, uh, I had to deal with.
And so bringing those stories to the forefront and putting more of me in the content, uh, but doing it in a way that was very focused and very intentional, like, people really, really, uh, vibed and, and, and resonated with that, and that's how I went from 100K to I, I went-- The first year I started sort of focusing on first gen professional, I more than doubled my audience, and that's what really got me on Instagram too because that message was really, um, powerful there as well.
Yeah. Um, on Instagram specifically, I know you started on TikTok, then moved to Instagram, and now your Instagram has really outpaced, uh, the, the TikTok. That's right. I mentioned that just a second ago.
I'm pretty sure that you're still posting essentially the same videos though. Yeah. Do you have any, like, hypotheses on why that ended up being your platform?
You know, I, [chuckles] I should probably spend a little more time, uh, thinking about that.
I, I do think that there is some aspect of-My audience growing with me, and so given the fact that I put a lot of myself into my content, as I've gotten married, as I've had my first kid, as I've just gotten older and hopefully wiser or at least, you know, less dumb, um, I think that's coming out in the content.
And so, you know, I'm, I'm... You know, I'm not gonna say that TikTok, you know, there are only kids on there. That's not true, right?
But I do think that on Instagram, the amount of people on that platform that are in that, you know, 27 to 35-year range, right, I do think that number is larger, certainly the people that are active and engaging with my content.
And so I think it's, it's been a little bit more, uh, resonant there. Um, and I do think that around the time, uh...
'Cause I, I got on Instagram because I was terrified the first time TikTok was going to be banned, you know, to be completely honest with you. When was that? But- Oh, wait, 'cause I don't, I don't remember.
[laughs] I remember the one earlier this year in January. I don't remember the, the previous time. Yeah, it was, um, gosh, I wanna say it was, it was, like, two or three years ago. Uh, it, it was a while ago.
Um, it, I think it was, like, 2023 was when I first, like, said, like, "Oh, like, I've gotta get on this other platform because, you know, TikTok may not be around or it may change or whatever."
Um, that's what got me on there in the first place. And so, um, yeah, I mean, I'm, I'm posting the same content. I still find a lot of value in my TikTok. I think my videos there have a much longer half-life.
I mean, people are still commenting on videos I made seemingly three-plus years ago, which is crazy to me.
And it's a great testing ground because I don't have to worry about my, my feed or what people see, and so, like, I can create three versions of the same video, put them up at the same exact time, whereas if you did that on, like, a LinkedIn or an Instagram, it's not really seen as, like, a best practice.
Um, so I definitely still use my TikTok, um, a lot, and I love the community I built there. I noticed that, there, that there was, like, a... You were doing- Yeah. [laughs]... some of that, like, you know, slight tweak.
Let's post a video at the same time. Classic, uh, A/B testing, you know? Exactly. Hey, if you're enjoying this conversation, consider subscribing to the podcast. We release a new episode every Tuesday.
All right, back to the show. Um, you, your, your professional life before you went full time on this, uh, you spent years as a consultant at, at Deloitte and a couple others. Sure.
Um, it strikes me that that has given you... I mean, you know, you've got a number of skills. You, you've got this natural charisma. You're very good at speaking, you know.
I think when, when you mentioned that your, um, your friends would come to you for career advice, even when I was just, like, watching some of your videos to prepare for this, I'm like, "Oh, I, I trust this guy."
Like, "I feel like he's got my best interests in mind, and, and this... and I should be listening to him." Um, so you've got that naturally, and I think that, um, really- That's really sweet. Thank you.
Yeah, no, of course. Um- Yeah... I, I think that really comes across. But I wanna talk about that more strategic side, too, and, like, obviously being a con- becoming a consultant, um, even just getting there, like, I...
[laughs] I promise I'll let you speak in a second. I was just listening to you on another podcast where you spoke about, like, trying to figure out, like, "What do I wanna do?" You thought you wanted to be a coder.
Um, you know, I, my parents are farmers, so I come also from, like, a- Oh, wow. Okay... a untraditional background like you. That's right. So I'm like, "I don't know what a job is."
Like, I, I don't know anything [laughs] about the professional world. That's right.
And I really related to you saying, like, um, you know, you were at this networking event and you saw this person holding court in their suit, holding their cocktail- [laughs]... uh, just like so. Yeah.
And you're like, "How do I get there? How do I reverse engineer getting there?" That's right.
So you're very strategically minded in breaking that kind of thing down, which is also, you know, being a consultant, et cetera.
Long way of asking, how did the skills you learned as a consultant then translate into this, um, [lips smack] uh, creator work? Oh, I love that question.
So I, I think the, the main value prop or the main thing you really learn, I think, as a consultant is how to tell a story, especially with data or information, and then how to think about things, like, structurally.
Like, if you have an outcome, how do you actually work yourself into, like, getting that actual thing done, right? And so I think that, um, first of all, I love you sharing your story here, and I, I definitely like...
You know, when I was in college and high school, like, no job that I've actually had post-college I knew even existed when I started college, right? And so I think that's, like, really big and important.
But, um, once I got started in consulting, I think it's like, um,
a lot of it is the public speaking, and I had a really good manager, and so they put me in a lot of rooms that I otherwise wouldn't have been in because I was very, uh, upfront about wanting to get that experience.
And so I was able to present to clients and present to some internal teams, which really works on your confidence when you're able to get in front of someone making, you know, 10 times what you make, and they have all this power and influence, and you, you...
Some people may get... I got nervous in front of that audience, but you, you get over it and, and it becomes normal, right? So I think that was a big thing.
And you have to be a really effective communicator, and so that's obviously the, the bread and butter of, you know, any effective content.
You have to say something that's clear, but also human, but also direct, but also, you know, vulnerable. And so you have to hit this, this moving target a lot of times. Uh, algorithms are changing.
Other people are popping up, right?
And so I think the, the, the effective communication and definitely, like, the, the structured thinking were the two biggest things, uh, definitely that I got out of, uh, consulting that helped me with content.
That makes total sense. Uh, so speaking of your content now and what the videos look like now, uh, again, as I said, it's this confidence, kindness, and charisma that really comes out.
These videos aren't particularly fancy. It's just kind of you often walking down the street or, like, you know, classic green screened over a Notes app- Yeah... in, in your robe in a hotel room. Whatever it is.
[laughs] It's not fancy. It's not, like, even, like, the latest phone camera it looks like, you know? It's just, it's just you. Mm-hmm. And, and that's... It's this kind of authenticity to that, too.
Um, last week in Creator Spotlight, our, uh, assistant editor, Natalia, she wrote this great piece about this and this performance about auth- of authenticity and, like, what even is authenticity?
No one really has a good definition, but it's something. It's, you know... What, what's that classic line, uh, The Judge? Like, "Pornography, I know it when I see it." That's right. Authen- authenticity- That's right...
is kind of like that, too. It's something you feel. Um, all of which is to ask, tell me about your approach to planning this. Are you a content calendar guy? Are you scripting? Are you...
You've got a spreadsheet with 100 ideas. "I'm gonna do this one now." Yeah. Uh, how, how do you actually approach this?Yeah.
So I, um, I've, I've gone both ways, and I'm sure you've seen that meme where it's like the standard deviation curve, right? And on one side, it's the person that's like, you know, "Just write it on a piece of paper."
And then at the top, you know, fifty percent, you've got the person with the, the notion dashboards and the Zapier integrations and all these reminders apps, right? I think I'm on the other end now where I'm...
I, I, I live in a world that I, you know, obviously content is my full-time job now, so I'm surrounded by ideas and inspiration all the time, and so my big thing is just like, get the ideas down, get the concepts down.
And so I use just like Apple Notes, and I just type them into Notes.
And then when I have time, when I'm sitting down like this in an office, I'll sort of scaffold those out into scripts, and then I'll sort of make the videos.
But I think, um, on the authenticity note, I, I really think authenticity comes down to just the, the, the honesty and the specificity as well as like with a little bit of like, like vulnerability, right?
I, I do think that sometimes some people think authenticity is just like putting less effort into the content you make, which like that's...
Like, I put a lot of effort into the content I make in terms of the stories I'm telling and how I show up and like making sure my energy is good, right?
But I think, uh, if, if I'm, if I don't have a story, I don't necessarily have a video, right?
Like, I may read an article or I may come across a paper that's got a really cool statistic, but it's like if I can't make that relevant to my audience through an experience I've had or, you know, a funny like line or hook or way to get into that video, I feel like it's not, it's not ready, right?
I'm not just sharing information here. I'm trying to be authentic, and my way of doing that is being really like honest and open and sharing pieces and parts of my life and my actual career, uh, lived experience.
Have there been any specific structured formats or specific categories of story that like you've really zeroed in on over, over the last year or two? Oh, man. That's, um... This is a good question.
This makes me-- The consultant mind in me is like, "Oh, yeah, I should totally scaffold that out- [laughs] -and like have a couple like different frameworks."
But, um, no, I mean, I think it's just, um, you know, obviously the, the hook is very important, but it's like it... the, the story, the video doesn't get made without the story, I'll say.
And so a lot of times, you know, I'm constantly reading up on, on LinkedIn and, and The New York Times and The Journal of Financial Times and all these things where like I'm trying to get the information in terms of, you know, how are people finding jobs?
How is AI impacting the job market? What are young people struggling with? What best internships are out there right now, right? But then it's like once I get all that down, it's like, okay,
what's a story from when I was interning? Or how did I get my first job when I was starting out, right? And so it's, it's, it's going back and stitching these statistics to actual like stories and events in my life.
Uh, and then it's just a bit of like mimery.
Like I like to sort of mime out how I'm gonna come across in the video, which, you know, may seem incredibly inauthentic, but I feel that, um, when I'm making the video, I don't wanna have to think about what I'm saying, but I wanna say what I wrote in the script.
If you're gonna run a 5K, first you have to run a 5K, you know? A hundred percent. Yeah. Exactly. So that's sort of, um, at a very basic level how I think about it. But, you've, you've...
Maybe I should go back and document some of that stuff. It's a good question. I, I'm, I'm, I'm surprised you haven't already. I'm sure you'll be helpful here. [laughs] Um, I, I'm curious about the, the jump once you...
I know you were laid off- Yeah. Mm-hmm... from your last full-time job. Been there myself. Um- Yeah. I'm, I'm curious, we don't have to rehash that, but I'm curious about the jump then- Yeah...
into full-time content creation, the actions you took, the, like the impacts you saw from those actions that new free time allowed or forced you to do within this work, and what impact you started to see.
Yeah, that's right. So I, I, I think, uh, I love the way you asked that question because I was thinking in, in the moment that I realized I wasn't gonna have a job anymore, I was considering those options, right?
Do I go back into the same industry I was in? Do I try to get back into consulting? Do I go to a startup, right? I'd had a couple people reach out just generally with no knowledge that I had lost my job.
Or do I start content? And it was very much like those were all pretty equal decisions. Like I, I was, I was making money in content, but it was a very respectable side hustle.
I was earning thirty to forty thousand a year, which is great money to be making on the side, but obviously as somebody with, you know, a family in Manhattan, like that can't support you, right?
And so- That's childcare for a year. Yeah. Ex-exactly, yeah, a hundred percent. And so, uh, but, but also, since I hadn't necessarily needed it, that had been sort of a, a pseudo savings as well.
So I had the majority of that money, you know, sort of sitting aside, so I had a little bit of a runway, you know, and I, and I thought that, look, I mean, this kid's only gonna get older.
I'm only gonna get older, right?
And so I think that if I wanna make that leap, um, and I had just brought on, you know, a, a, a small team of people to sort of help manage the opportunities that were coming in and pitch me for larger ones.
And so I said, "Okay, let me choose to lean into this."
And then I sat down with my wife and said, "Okay, I've got about six months of runway, and by the time those six months are up, if I'm not hitting the, the goalpost that I should be hitting in terms of how we, you know, support ourselves and live our lives here in New York City, um, I'll, I'll have to make other arrangements," right?
And so that's sort of how we, how we did it. I said, "I'm gonna lean all in." Um, and, and then my approach there was to treat content like I treated my career.
And so the sixty hours I was giving to the agency I was at or before I got let go, I was gonna put those sixty hours back into content, right? This wasn't the time to, you know, go to the beach or sulk or chill, right?
Like I, I had a baby. I had a lot of responsibilities, right? And so I, um, I was going to networking events. I was traveling a lot.
I was getting on informal calls with LinkedIn, people I had met, you know, and I was really trying to drum up a lot of attention and focus towards the fact that I was doing this thing full-time.
I had a lot more availability, selling myself as a speaker, as a marketing consultant, as a career coach, right? Just doing anything and everything to sort of grow, um, the business, you know?
And, and that's, that's, that's kinda how that decision was made. Uh, how large was your audience and on what platforms at that, at that point in time?
Um, at that time, maybe just around like three, three sixty, three seventy in total. So pretty similar to what it is now. Now I'm just over four hundred. But yeah, so it was, it was definitely sizable.
And again, like let's be honest here, like that was a huge part of it, right?
I felt like, um-Based on the schedule that I was keeping, and obviously working a full-time job, I had to say no to a lot of things just 'cause I didn't have the time, but I definitely had the interest, right?
And so that was also something in the back of my head. I was like, "Now that I'm open, I can go to this event, or I can do this deal that requires me to travel to this city on a weird Tuesday," right? And so, um, yeah.
But I, I had around, like, maybe like s- say 350,000 total. Mm-hmm. There is one of your videos, uh, it's you teaching people how to properly use a napkin at a business dinner- [laughs]... in a formal setting. Yeah.
Yeah. And there's this comment on there that struck me. This person says, "I hate the idea of bending to be a certain way." And you reply, "You perform social norms every day already, though."
[laughs] And they reply, "Yeah, but that doesn't feel like a social norm to me." [laughs] "It feels very forced and superficial." Yeah.
And, and reading that, I'm like, well, y- y- you need to be able to understand how to be in these spaces if you wanna be in these spaces, or how to move through society in this way. Correct.
This is something that I, you know, I definitely believe. I remember before I got, like, a professional, white- let's say white collar job, I was like, "I just need to get an in.
I need an internship or a foot in the door, and I will be able to quickly learn the codes of that world and navigate it, thrive in it, move up in it."
Um, all of this I say, uh, to say that, like, the way that you'd built this up, the way that you'd built this image and reputation o- on LinkedIn and these other platforms, like, it was you doing this.
And there's a phrase in your LinkedIn, um, like, the one-liner bio or whatever, the subheading, "Reach is the new resume." And- That's right...
I, I wanna connect that to this, where, like, it's, it's a form of career protection. It's a form of, like, you, like, [laughs] you know, you saying like, "I know how to fold a napkin," or, "I know how to-" Yeah...
you know- That's right... be or perform in these settings. Um, yeah, I just wanted to connect those few things, but tell me about this idea of reach is the new resume, and like- Yeah...
building this up, the building up this audience as a form of career protection. Whether you were gonna do this full-time or not, it's insurance. I love the phrase career protection. Yeah, so I...
I- it, it was about a month b- from the date I lost my job to when I first told people on the internet. And, and in that month, I'd already made the decision that I was going to do content full time, right?
And so when I announced it, it was more so just as kinda like a, "Hey, like, the paradigm has slightly shifted. I'm still very passionate about career education.
I'm still gonna come on here and tell you how to network and what napkin to use or what fork to use and all this stuff. Um, but just so you know, this is what's gone on," right? I gotta update my LinkedIn now, right?
Um, and the response to that, the, the phrase reach is the new resume was something I developed in the response to that video.
'Cause I'm literally there in the video holding my, you know, three-month-old baby, two-month-old baby saying that, "Hey, I don't have a job anymore," right?
"And I give career advice, so follow me, you know, for more tips on how to end up exactly in this position that I'm in," right? Um, [laughs] and people wouldn't, like... Like, the, the opportunities were insane.
I got so many DMs and texts and messages and comments from people at every big company you could hear from.
You know, all, all the big consulting firms, all the big tech companies, big media organizations here in New York City, uh, people reaching out to, to do press and media for me and tell my story that way.
Uh, the, the response was immense. And so I really thought that, "Hmm, because I have this audience, I've almost built a situation in which I can't lose," right?
Even when I have something that is traditionally seen as a bad thing, you lose your job, you lose a source of income, the only source, major source of income I had, just because I had that audience, people had enough trust and faith because I was showing up consistently and delivering my knowledge, right?
Um, and given the fact that I wasn't let go for anything performance related, I think, um, it, it really helped me.
And so that's sort of where that phrase came from, and I see it now every day, especially on LinkedIn, of people showing up, not really having the desire to even go full time because they're, you know...
If you work in machine learning at Meta, right, like, I think your compensation and your career trajectory, I think you're pretty happy about that, right?
And so, uh, but they know that that's how they get the speaking and that's how, you know, maybe that's the path to a book deal, or maybe that's, you know, how they start doing, uh, like, an adjunct professorship somewhere.
It's like it opens the door up to all these other opportunities. And so I went through that, and I saw that in my own life, and sort of that's where that phraseology sort of came from.
Um, and I'm probably tagged now on LinkedIn, like at least three to five times a day from people sort of, like, ringing that phrase open and saying, "Oh, you know, I heard this from Cullen," which is really cool.
The brand is strong. Um, 'cause I think it's become... Yeah, it's become a bit of a calling card for, like, the power of, uh- Mm-hmm... social media on one's career. That's awesome.
No, I think something you said about layoffs there, too, uh, in a couple weeks I'm interviewing this woman, Melanie Ehrenkranz, who runs a newsletter called Laid Off. Um, and- Yes.
Yeah, you- I'm subscribed to her newsletter. Exactly. Yeah. And I mean- It's awesome...
also earlier today I read that Polygon, the Vox-owned video game, um, journalism outlet, basically I think they got acquired or something, basically everybody was laid off, right? Oh my goodness. I've been laid off.
I was laid off a couple years ago. Like- Yeah... layoffs are just normal now. I think- That's right... the idea of, like, layoffs as a mark of shame is- That's right... is dead. It's, it's more just like- I agree...
that's a part of the career. But that's also why it's so important to build, to, to have that reach as the new resume, right? To, to have your, your online audience.
It's like, going back to, to that napkin comment, it's like maybe you don't want to, like, bend to this social norm and have this audience and, like, build this persona on LinkedIn. But, like, you can't...
You have- You can't lie. Like, you have to admit it is... It works, and it's, it's, it's worth doing. Um- Definitely... no question there. Maybe just an observation. Yeah. No, I, I, I completely agree, is all I'll say.
[laughs] Yeah. [laughs] Um, okay. So earlier you were saying that before you were let go, you, you'd made 30 to 40,000, uh- Mm-hmm... in the previous year- Yeah... from your work as a content creator.
You don't have to tell me exactly how much you're making now. You don't strike me as that kind of guy. Uh, but I am curious all the different ways and the percentage- Mm-hmm...
breakdown of your overall revenue pie- Mm-hmm... uh, of, of each, each way you're currently making money as a creator. Yeah. Of course.
And so, yeah, I mean-Without giving specifics, I've definitely replaced what I was making in my last corporate role with content, which is, I think, is like an incredible blessing. Congratulations.
Yeah, I think that's... Yeah, thank you. It's, it's been really nice. But, uh, today, probably ninety percent of my income is brand partnerships, and so these are, you know, you know what these are.
I won't even explain what that is, right? They're brand partnerships.
Um, a large part of, I think, what drives the number to be as high as it is, is the fact that I have, as you said, presence on multiple channels, and so with, you know, how usage and, and platform rates are, and so like I can sell a lot more on partnerships, but, you know, if you follow me on one of, of these platforms, you don't feel like it's inundated, right?
Because, you know, I'm only doing one to two partnerships, you know, every two to three weeks, right?
But it's across all these different channels, and so I think that's what's been really helpful for me, is having a sizable audience on like the big, you know, social media platforms of the day.
Um, so other than that, other than brand partnerships, I would say second is digital like career guides, right?
I've got some very low-ticket things I offer, like a goal-setting guide for twenty bucks, uh, a promotion template for ten bucks, right? Very small things to sort of help people.
Um, and a lot of my free stuff, people give me, uh, like tips, which I think are nice.
Like, I sell like a free like networking template, and people will toss me like three to five bucks for that, which is like really cool.
You know, and it just feels- Well, and the direct value you get from that too is, is really less than the brand equity value you get that then allows you- Hundred percent...
to even sell these brand partnerships, uh, for a higher ticket. One hundred percent, yeah. Exactly. That, that's a big part of it as well. And then, um, I do some public speaking.
A lot of that is still free, but it's good, as you said, for the, for the brand building, but some of that is paid.
Um, and then if it's the right fit and if I can figure out the timing for it, I do do, uh, coaching for like career coaching, personal branding coaching.
Um, sometimes the brands and organizations will reach out to me too to get my POV on their creator or influencer marketing or partnership strategy and how they market organically to their audience, which I think is really nice as well.
Um, 'cause that's not my core skill set. You know, I studied information systems and data analytics, right?
I'm the, the R and, and Tableau and like, you know, Excel spreadsheets guy, and now I get to talk about, you know, content marketing and, and branding, which is pretty cool.
Uh, has anything, any monetization strategies or experiments, whatever, any flops that you, you tried and it just- [laughs] Oh, like-... was not for me? I'm never doing this again. Uh, plenty of flops.
Yeah, I, I never wanna say I don't wanna try anything again, but yeah. I, I definitely... I mean, I've, I've tried to launch courses that weren't as successful as I probably would've wanted them to be. Um, I've had...
Last summer, the summer I got let go, uh, I did like an internship community, so for that summer, I mentored a group of people, and the community was, you know... I, I, I guess this is only a flop by my own expectations.
Like, I had 10 or so people in there, and they were really engaged, and I actually got some really good friendships and relationships out of it. I guess I just wanted it to be a bit,
you know, larger than it ended up being, but for the people that actually did it, actually, I guess that was actually a pretty enjoyable experience. So very time intensive, and so probably not worth, um, worth the money.
But yeah. No, I, I think those are like probably the two big ones that I can remember, but, um, I've always been willing to just try, right? Like, if the alignment is there, right?
Like, I don't wanna just show up and try to, you know, punch coins out of my audience, right? Yeah. Like, I wanna make sure it's like the right [laughs] opportunity.
But, um, yeah, definitely a couple, a couple, uh, flops along the way. Uh, every-everyone's got 'em. You gotta fail to, to find the thing that works. Um- That's right...
uh, with brand partnerships specifically, I'm sure you have inbound that you turn down, uh, because the way that your brand is and the content you do, there are specific values that you wanna adhere to.
I'm sure things that, you know, companies that just would be a bad look for you to partner with. Tell me about the decision-making process there, um, and like what you really look for in a, in a good brand partnership.
Totally. Yeah. So I think [sighs] the, the big thing for me is just staying away from things that, like you said, would be like a brand risk. And so, like, I don't do any crypto partnerships. I don't...
I try to even stay away from like financial services companies unless they're like quite reputable.
Like, I've been an Ally Bank customer for 10 years, and so when they reached out, like, of course, I'm gonna take that partnership.
But, um, in terms of like financing and loans and some of these other financial products, like I try to stay really, really close to like what I think my audience needs and also just like the most reputable financial institutions that I can find, right, are the ones I'll take.
Um, but yeah, for consumer products, right, like something like, um, I was able to do a, a partnership with AG1 or Athletic Greens earlier this year that I thought was really cool.
Um, it's gotta be like something I either use in my day-to-day life right now or would, and then if not, you know, maybe something my audience would find use for, right?
And so, like a lot of things related to, you know, job opportunities or college alternatives, right?
Obviously, I'm not looking for a college alternative, but a lot of people in my audience are 'cause they come from non-traditional backgrounds, and so I have partnered with organizations that sort of offer different pathways into, um, white collar or even, you know, trades and, and other sort of career paths, so that's stuff I'll always do as well.
Uh, wait. Speaking about your audience demographics for a little while- Mm-hmm... you, you're just... I mean, obviously, I'm sure a lot of people are like, you know, 16, 17, 18, they're going into college.
They're trying to figure out, like, how do I... Not even how do I get on this path, but what are the available paths, um- Yeah...
and you were also earlier referencing people who are, have, have been growing up with you, and maybe now they- Mm-hmm... have a kid, and, you know, they're- Mm-hmm... married, et cetera.
They've been following you for a few years. What can you tell me? What do you know about your specific audience demographics? Yeah. No, good question.
So the, the vast majority are in that 25 to 34 demo, um, but that has shifted over time. 'Cause when I started making content, I was 24 years old, right?
And so my audience leaned younger, and so I've definitely seen over time the graph has sort of slowly shifted even without me trying to move it, just as I've, I don't wanna say matured. Is it... You know what I mean?
But like, as I've gotten older and as my point of view, I guess, has changed, um- As, as sand falls through the hourglass? Yes. [laughs] That's, that's good. Yeah.
As, as the sand has continued to fall, I guess the way I talk about things makes me more, uh, relevant to a slightly older audience.
But-I still, I would say especially on TikTok, um, again, I think that's more so due to the fact that I started on TikTok, and my oldest, oldest, oldest videos are still on that platform.
I do get a lot of comments from people who are like...
I mean, I've got, you know, sixteen-year-olds in Pakistan and like eighteen-year-olds in London that send me messages of like, you know, "I've never heard of this job path," or, you know, "Living in New York sounds so cool," and like it's, um, it's really cool.
So I, I, I respect my whole audience. And then on LinkedIn, you know, you've got, you know,
s-sixty-four-year-olds, you know, CXOs or, you know, very high-level people that are like, uh, either in very, you know, agreement or very staunch disagreement with the post I put out, so.
Uh, you know, the, the way- Yes... you just talked about, you said like these people saying, "Oh, living in New York seems cool."
Um, I, you know, the way people say in like certain movies or shows like, "New York is a character." Like Sex and the City- [laughs]... it's like New York is the- Yes...
the fifth, the fifth lady in that show or whatever. [laughs] Do you, uh, uh, do you think that's like a big part of your appeal? Like, would you be able to do this if you were living in another city?
Would your audience be small? Would it be different? Um, I'm not sure- I think-... if you thought about this. I haven't really thought about this kind of thing before. Yeah.
I think, I, I mean, it would have to be different. It's, it's such a part of my specific story. I mean, I'm, you know... My dad's from Mississippi, my mom's from Atlanta. I grew up just outside of Atlanta in the suburbs.
But like, yeah, I, I moved to New York City with a suitcase, as I mentioned earlier. And so like- Yeah... I started my whole career here.
I worked at one of the most prestigious consulting firms, you know, in, in their head office. You know, had a view of the entire city, working outside of the Rockefeller building. Mm. Like it was, it was really nice.
You know, it, it was a really nice, um, looking, uh, I'll say, experience, right? And so [laughs] I think it definitely is a big part of my story because I've, I've leaned into that.
But if my story was different, I'd like to think that I would lean into whatever my, my life looked like, right? But, um, yeah, I'm not gonna deny the, uh, the New York privilege- [laughs]... uh, of growing my audience.
And f- honestly, from a, from a brand and like partnerships standpoint as well, right? You wanna do PR events, you wanna go to cool conferences and events.
I mean, what other place is doing more stuff, maybe like LA, right, than New York City? So. No, New York, New York's the mecca of, of money and success. [laughs] Right.
Whether, whether those things are synonymous to the viewer or not. Um- That's right. Okay. Kinda, this question kind of overlaps, so I'll ask these together.
You mentioned earlier that, you know, you translated your 60-hour work weeks at your previous job into, into this work. So I'm curious how that breaks down, you know, 20 hours to this, 20 hours to that, whatever.
Uh, but also you mentioned this team that you've built around yourself, and so I'm curious how that relates, too.
So basically, what the, what, [laughs] what, what the all the work is that goes into the business of being Cullen rocker, and- Mm... um, and how that's broken down both in your time and people you have working with you.
Yes, yes, yes. Uh, I love this question.
So I would say that the best decision I've ever made throughout this whole process was, uh, going under management, and so I started working with a talent manager in late '23, basically '24, 2024 is the first full year, and then obviously I, I worked with- Basically like two months after, after you started doing this full time.
Yeah. Yeah. It, it happened very quickly. Um, yeah, absolutely. And so I, I, um, I've been working with him, and he obviously does a lot of, uh, outreach and pitching, right?
Um, he does a lot of business conceptualizing as well, and so he's also like a, a bit of a thought partner. So when I have an idea for something like, um, I've got these networking events I throw in New York City, right?
And so we're thinking of ways to like partner with brands on that. Um, and he obviously handles a lot of the contracting and negotiation.
And so most of my time is focused on, you know, creative production and like engagement, right?
And so I, whether it's ego or stupidity or I like to think, you know, care, like I like to control the en- Good old human nature. Yeah, exactly.
I, I like to control the full creative process of my content, and so the, from the, the concepting to the size of the captions on the video, like that's, that's all me.
I've, I've worked with editors in the past for very specific and like, you know, called out things. Um, but 99% of my videos, I'm the person. It's my thumbs, it's my, you know, keystrokes or whatever.
Um, and then yeah, it's the, it's the engagement and sort of staying in tune. Um, and I like to dedicate a big part of my day to what I call just, you know,
biz dev or just like, like seeking out new opportunities, right?
Whether that's press, whether that's people I wanna meet, whether it's having calls with people that I met in an event but I didn't really get to connect with, um, and just like making sure my name is out there, honestly.
Um, a big part of my strategy for the business is like wherever you go, I want you to see Cullen Rocker, basically.
And so it's like if there's an event happening on career, on first gen, on personal branding and marketing, like I wanna be associated with that.
And so a lot of my outreach is to people who run events, people who have communities, people who are moving and shaking in the industry, right, at big publications- Mm... just making them aware of my existence.
Um, and so that's the big thing. And then I've got an accountant as well for all the, the boring, uh, tax stuff. So. That's why they call him Career Cullen. He's everywhere- Yeah... where career, [laughs] careers are.
That's right. I, I wanna be. Yeah. Yeah, absolutely.
Um, so speaking of your ambitions, though, uh, when we were defining creator earlier, too, and the way you were defining it sounds like your ambition is for your work as a creator, like maybe you do keep doing it, you know, forever, uh, certain, maybe, maybe not the 60 hours a week or not that it's the full 60 hours, but my point is it's clear to me that you wanna build a distribution platform for other t- uh, forms of monetization and that brand deals, you don't want brand deals to be 90% of your revenue forever.
You have ambitions for them- Correct... to be a, a certain smaller portion of the pie.
So tell me about those ambitions, maybe both more near term, like let's say within the next three years, uh, but even dreaming big, next 10, 20 years too. I'm curious how you're thinking about it long term. Yeah.
So I mean, my, my biggest ambition is to be like the, the physical manifestation of what I wish I had in my life when I was 18 to 22 years old, right?
And so whether that's, you know, we're talking, like that's expanding the brand, and so I'd love to speak more about and gain an audience that's more focused on like these aspects of like personal finance, wealth preservation-...
family, you know, and, and all these other things where it's like I didn't necessarily have that education or perspective in my own household, right?
And so it's not only just career and making money, but then what do you do with that money and how do you build an actual life you wanna live, right?
Um, and so I think it's like expansion of the, the brand as like a platform, so where people are coming to me for more than just how to get a job, but also how to build like a life, right? Mm-hmm.
And then I think, um, as far as like discrete things, um, I'm doing these networking events that I love. Um, they're... I get a lot out of them, but also events are, are big business, right?
And I think, um, if, you know, you're obviously very well-read in the creator economy, and so it's like a big trend that we're seeing is creators are building their own communities, right, with IRL events, on digital platforms like your Slacks and your Discords and all these things, and finding ways to go deeper with their audience.
And so that's like building out the newsletter. That's my own digital community that I'm launching soon that's kinda connected to the networking events that I'm hosting.
Um, and I'm launching a book, uh, which, you know, not, uh... I, I'm not giving too many details out, but it, it is written, and so I'm working with an editor and a publisher to sort of refine that message.
Um, and once that comes out, I wanna be a lot more,
uh, honestly, on the road, and I wanna build my presence as like a public speaker and like a, a, a consultant and coach for the specific things I'm talking about in the book.
And so those are sort of the things that I'm really working on. Mm.
But, um, to be honest, it's like the true success for me is actually being able to play the game and, you know, same thing as earlier, I'm sure half of your audience is probably throwing up, but it's like, like I never thought I'd be here.
You know what I mean? It's like I, you know... Yeah.
My, my whole story and how I got to this point, it's like none of this was necessarily planned out when I was 18 years old, but I'm here now, and I love the life that I've built.
And so the fact that I get to wake up every day and think of ways to create things that other people can find useful in their work and in their life, I mean, I can't imagine a life that's better than that, right?
And so I would like to continue doing this and to build it and to grow it as much as I can. Yeah. I'm...
On a more reflective note, I like, when I think about where I come from and my parents, you know, it's a small far- small farm, small organic farm. They own it, uh, and nobody's taking it over. Mm-hmm.
My sister is, has started her own farm, right? Mm-hmm. But my parents are gonna have to sell their farm soon. They're getting old. Mm.
Um, they won't get a ton of money for it, maybe a bit of money for the land too, you know. Mm. Uh, but they've been doing this great work for 40-some years, m- growing amazing organic food, flowers.
Thousands of people in their community- It's awesome... eats it, right? Like, that is so amazing to me, but I saw them working seven days a week. Yeah. Not a ton of money in it. Yeah.
I was like, "I don't wanna work seven days a week, and I-" [laughs] "... want to have more money than we did growing up." That's right.
Um, and I think, you know, we're, me and you are kind of aligned in a similar way here. Uh, but sometimes I wonder, I'm like, you know, like, what am I doing here?
I'm making media, like, hopefully trying to make the world- [laughs]... a better place. Like, my, a, a core goal for me is like the number of people participating in the creator economy is going to go up. Mm.
The n- the amount of information around there, or, or out there is going to increase exponentially.
Maybe through my little intervention, I can increase the quality somehow and, like, the way people treat each other within this world. Um, and a- Mm... again, I think for you it's a similar thing.
Uh, it sounds like where you're going with this is it's less just about career, but it's more about, like, building a stable life, uh- Mm-hmm...
financially, I think is the core root of it, and career is just a proxy for that. Maybe, maybe I'm, I've got that wrong. I don't know. But, um, what I'm curious is if you ever like,
like how you relate back to that, your dad being a plumber, your first job being- Mm-hmm... at Chick-fil-A. Like- Mm.
[laughs] Uh, 'cause for me I'm like, you know, that's such good work that has this clear impact, and sometimes- Mm... I feel this type of work is more abstracted- Mm...
and I, you know, not that it totally keeps me up at night, but it's something- Yeah... I sometimes I'm like, should I have taken over the farm? Like, would I be...
Is that a, is that more impactful growing amazing organic food- Oh, man... than doing this? Um, so I'll, I'll stop there, but I'm curious if, if you kind of [chuckles] ever think about this kind of thing. Yeah.
Oh, my goodness. You're, you're getting to the crux. I think, um... Look, I mean, on a very real level, I, I've spent a lot of time working with my dad when I was younger. Mm.
Those were my summer vac- vacations, is when I'd wake up at 6:00 AM and go with him to the job site.
And, uh, I'll just tell you in a few words, I don't think I'm cut out for the plumbing lifestyle, uh, or, you know, that's what my dad told me. [laughs] Um, so I, I don't think that was ever necessarily the cards for me.
Well, you're quite good at this, so- But, uh [laughs]... it works out. Exactly. Exactly.
But, um, I, I think to, to your point, though, that's where, I guess the way I see that is it, it makes me all the more, like, grateful for the life that I've built because I'm very aware of the alternatives. Mm. Right?
I mean, my, you know, um, my older brother, uh, when he graduated high school, he ended up going into the Air Force, and then a couple years later he ended up passing in, in that service.
Uh, my sister still lives, um, in our, in our hometown, you know, and, and she's had her own, her own journey through life, um, but hasn't, you know, matriculated through like a four-year college program or something.
And so for me, it's like looking at my family and my journey and, like, where I've been able to get to, I think it gives me the gratitude and the, the, the go forward to just keep- Yeah...
doing this because it's like, you know, you... Like, I know what the alternatives are, right? And I think I like this, I know I like this, um, a, a hell of a lot more.
And to be honest with you, it's a big thing I get out of getting out of, you know, this, this office and in my apartment and sort of going out into the world and, like, like meeting people and talking to people because that keeps me current and, like, relevant and again, like, like grounded, right?
'Cause I think as, as a, as a full-time content creator, there's a very easy way, like now that I am one, you see how it happens, where it's like you just sit in your room and you just make little videos every day, and it's like I, I don't ever wanna just, like- Yeah...
I don't want content to be the only thing I'm creating, right? Mm.
I wanna go out there and, like, have a conversation with someone, um, and actually, like, have an interaction, right, with people and feel like I'm doing more than just, uh, sending, you know-Creative assets out into the, into the ether.
So Yeah. Uh, thank you for sharing. I... That was-- I, I honestly got a little emotional there. I, I, I f- I relate to you fully too on that. Like, I,
you know, being, being in New York too and like going out and being in the world and going back to your events, that seems to be a really impactful thing, and you spoke about- Yeah...
the internship aspect and how like, uh, the intern community and how that didn't really work out so well, but now you're finding something that is.
And going back into this impact, what we were just talking about and like- Mm-hmm... how, like, w- uh, what-- does this work really bring that value to the world?
Um, I think that's a big reason why events and, you know, are be- are becoming more popular is because it's so much more high impactful on a person dep- on an individual person level, um, than, you know, somebody watching your video, and they're like, "That's nice."
Maybe they're motivated. Maybe they don't really act on anything. Yeah. At an event, you act on these things. You make connections. You build- That's right... this life, right?
Um, so tell me more about how you're actually making that work this time in your, th-th-this new intention around events and community building will be successful in a way that that early, um, internship cohort was, was not as successful for you.
Yeah. So I think with the intern cohort, it was... I felt like it wasn't as like, uh, branded or defined or, I guess, purposeful. Yeah. It wasn't as purposeful as the, as the community.
So my, my, uh, networking events, which I, I call it a professional meetup club because I do want it to feel more like a meetup than like a networking, like, standard event, right?
Where you get your little sticky name tag, you're in business casual, you walk up to someone and give them a firm handshake. Club implies continuation. Exactly. Club com- implies continuation.
It, it, it hints at exclusivity, but it's not really exclusive. Um, you just have to show up as yourself, right, and then congratulations, you're in. [laughs] Right?
But I think, um, the naming of it was chosen very intentionally, and it's called For the First- Mm... because I wanted to expand the platform of the idea what a first is, right?
Because when people hear first-gen, it's like, okay, first-gen student, first-gen American, like people, like, understand what that is.
But a lot of people show up to my events, and they're the first people to, uh, move to New York City. Yeah.
Or the first people to earn six figures or go into this specific field or raise money and do their startup, right? And so
you lose track of all the things you do that are the first in your family, but you don't realize, like, you're having to do them all alone. Yeah.
And so that's why the community exists, to bring these people together that are out here every day chasing something very different from what anyone else in their family has done.
But they're looking for ways to connect with other people, but also feel like, like at home and, like, welcomed, right?
And so that's, like, the, the why behind the community, and I feel like the internship community was like, "Let me help you navigate through your internship," which was like- This was more a w- like you to them connection, whereas this is more like- Exactly...
we are in this together. Exactly. Exactly. And, and I've created something where, like, I'm not, um, the most important person- Right... which I think is really good.
Like, the internship community was like, "Come and learn from me at the mountaintop," right? Yeah.
Whereas, like, this thing is like people are self-organizing inside the community based on other sub interests that they really, really like that I'm starting to see now, and I'm like, "Wow, that is so cool."
That's community. That's when community is actually happening is when that happens. Exactly. It's not, like, an influence for me. Like, no one shows up because I'm there, right?
Half the people that show up, like, have no idea who I am, but I'm just like- You are just a facilitator. Yeah... C-correct, which is what I want, right? Yeah.
Like, I don't want people, you know, coming up and asking, you know, me questions. Like, but yeah, people are, um... I mean, that still happens, and that's fine. But- Well, it's like that, what's his name? Yeah.
Uh, Seth Godin, I think, the marketing guy. Mm-hmm. Uh- The tribes guy? Uh, yeah. U-his whole thing. Yeah. Uh, people like us do things like this, right? Like, that's kinda what you're describing to me with this Firsts.
Oh, I like that. Yes. Yeah, it's one of his- Yes, yes, yes... principles.
Um, another thing that I wanted to make sure we touched on before, before this ends, uh, your newsletter, which I think is called, um, Weekly All Hands, right? Yes. Which [laughs] I love, because again- [laughs]...
it's that community thing of this, of us being in this together. Uh, as far as I know, what I could find looking back, you started this eight months ago. Um- Yes...
curious why you started that, what the goals were, how it's going. Yeah. So I started a newsletter because my manager said I should have one.
[laughs] So [laughs] not the, not the most, uh, you know, uh, insightful of, of startings, but it's, it's been fun because I think, um, you know, there's this whole quote, I think it's Stephen King maybe said it or somebody, where it's like, "If you're not a clear thinker, you can't be a clear writer," right?
And so I- Yeah. Well, writing is thinking, in my opinion. Correct. Exactly.
And so it's been a fun challenge for me because you can sort of vis- you can always verbally process, which is what we've been doing for the last hour, but it's like when it's the written word, like it's sort of...
It's just a slightly different skill, right? Yeah. And so it's been good to work on that, and then it allows me to go deeper on things where I can't necessarily in a 60-second video get across.
And so in that newsletter, you're getting career advice, of course. You're getting visuals, and so I always pick a couple cool photos from my camera roll that I throw in there.
Um, I've started something called, like, the, the, the Career Creator Corner. [laughs] And so people that are- That's a mouthful... working... Yes, exactly.
So people that, you know, have jobs that basically wanna do some version of what I do, right? And use that reach as a new resume and grow their presence, right? Like, I'm giving tips there.
Um, I'm sharing like a playlist of, like, songs I listen to when I'm working or editing or going through emails, right? That people really like.
Um, and there's like a portion in there that's like an AMA, and so people ask me questions in my IG stories, um, and I'll pick a couple of them, and then I'll answer them in that newsletter.
And that content is only in that newsletter. And so obviously it's free to subscribe, but like you're getting something that you're not getting in my other content. So yeah. Have you, um...
If you haven't heard this, you might dig this. Have you ever heard of this idea of content capital? No. So, so I got this, uh, this woman, Kate Eichhorn, wrote this book- Okay...
called Content, part of the MIT Press series. I read it a few months ago. I wrote this essay on it for, for the new, for the Creative Spotlight newsletter.
Um, and I riffed on her idea a little bit, but the idea here is that content capital is your reach, your following, your ability to distribute information to people on the internet.
Um-Where I kind of took it is, like, content capital is really, you know, leaning into the capital aspect, is the only, the only, um, full... The only truly liquid form of content capital is an email list.
It's, is a CSV- Mm-hmm... that you can export- Mm-hmm... and you've got all these people, right? And so- Mm-hmm... I trust that's kind of what happened here, is you have this 400,000-plus following.
I don't know if you're promoting the newsletter in any paid way or anything, but to me it seems like it is a form of, uh, liquidating the content capital that you've built across your, your social followings. Yeah.
And it's, you know, your most engaged followers, most- Yeah... engaged members of your audience then come into this, and now you have, you have this, this email list with them. I love that. Yeah. Ex- exactly.
And so I, I have noticed where it's like people will respond to it or it's like, um, with the platform I use, I can always see, like, what specific links people are clicking on, you know?
Um, and so that's always nice to see what people... And, and by and large, though, the, the, the links that people click on the most are the ones where I'm talking about or promoting the in-person events.
Because like you said, I mean, that's a... I guess I didn't put two and two together, but, like, my most engaged followers are the most likely ones to show up in person at an event, right?
And so, um, and that totally plays out in the data that I'm seeing. So yeah, you just, uh, you answered a question for me, so thank you. Oh, happy to be of help.
[laughs] Uh, one more thing that I've been thinking about recently and that you mentioned on your episode of the 9to5 Quitters Club podcast. Mm-hmm.
Uh, this is something that came up when I was speaking to the guest, uh, on this week's episode as we speak, the Creator Spotlight podcast, Adam Biddlecombe.
He was talking about how over the last two years he grew his LinkedIn audience from zero to now it's... When I spoke to him, it was 200K. 13 days later, it was 212K. Oh, my goodness.
Um, today I'm sure it's, like, 220-something.
Okay, so he spoke about how when he was just starting to build it, you know, you look at some of these big creators and you, y- y- you wanna take the formats they're doing maybe, but you don't wanna do the style.
These bigger creators have more leeway to post more, like, uh, you know, general advice and, like, lifestyle stuff. Mm-hmm.
When you're a smaller creator, you need to be posting the really educational stuff, the niche stuff. But once you get bigger, you can start, um, posting more of these, these generalized things.
And you were speaking on this on the 9to5 Quitters Club. You said that at the beginning it was all, I'm gonna quote you, "It was all niche, all topic, every single video, tip, tip, tip, tip, tip."
But that now you found this whole other side of your audience and self recently where you've been getting more comfortable with being vul- more vulnerable. And to me, this mapped...
I in- instantly thought of what Adam had said, of like, you need to be more educational at the beginning, but as you get bigger, you want to be more, um, more... You can get more general and more, like, about yourself.
So I'm curious, uh, if, if you've, if that was, like, if you really noticed that as you grew or more natural or how this came to be. Yeah.
I think, um, o- on a very realistic level, I mean, there is also an aspect of this of like, you know, the, the well only has so much water as well, right?
And so it's like in the interim when you're really looking for, you know, maybe the next really great source of things to really talk about in your audience because I'm not...
The content I'm making isn't editorial, right? I'm not just, like, reporting on the news. I'm trying to, like, bring you stories and experiences from my life, right?
But the, the, the schedule of, I mean, every week across platform, I've got 35 different posts to come up with, right, um, that I'm posting to all these different channels.
Thir- is that, that's how much you're putting out every week, 35 posts to come up with? Across channels. It doesn't mean 35 unique pieces of content.
So some of that is short form that's posted across, but yes, it is, it's 35 pieces across, um, all platforms, which is crazy. Um,
but I think, yes, talking about myself because you have to, you have to take your followers on a journey and it's like the,
the content that you post about yourself may get higher engagement, but it typically doesn't get higher reach because people don't know you, right? And so I think, yes, it, it makes very sense to me in, in retrospect.
Again, I didn't know this starting out, but it's like once you have that audience of a couple hundred thousand, yeah, toss in some personal anecdotes, right?
Those won't be the things that ideally will continue to grow your account because, you know, you can't just hop on someone's page and you're talking about something they have no context for. But, like,
sharing those personal stories helped me build, like, a, a, a somewhat, like, deeper audience, and then questions and, and additional things come out of that where I can then dive into, uh, maybe more like, you know, niche-adjacent stuff.
Um, but now I try to, I try to do my best to blend the two.
But yeah, I would say it was, like you said, it was about two and a half, three years before I even thought about bringing anything, like, personal into the content I was making. Yeah.
You kind of have to earn the, not the right, but, like, the ability to be able to, to put in that kind of content.
And another side too is, like, the, the tips and such, I, I, I don't know if you find this in your work, but I find in this work too, like, there's only so many tips.
You know, there's only so many ways to grow a newsletter audience and to, like, talk about that. So I try to get into that every time. But like, the, we, I, this, this can't be a whole show every week about just that.
It would get very boring, and I wouldn't- Correct... retain a lot of listeners 'cause it would get very repetitive very quickly.
And I'm, I'm sort of like, my, my evolving hypothesis and perspective on content and creators in general is that we are in the post-information economy. Like, information's free.
We can all get it with all these LLMs and all these tools, right? And so it's like I, I truly don't think people follow me because I've got the best career advice out there. I was let go, right?
And so it's like clearly that's not the case. But it's about forming that relationship and then speaking from that level of expertise, right, where I'm telling you
how to navigate a corporate space, build wealth, and build a life you actually enjoy living from my perspective and my lived experience, right? I'm not telling you how to raise a $10 million Series A.
I'm not telling you how to manage a department of 250 people, right? I haven't done those things.
But I feel like, um, in this area we're at, that's the power of a creator because I can speak to my story better than anyone else can, and that's what's enabled me.
It's like the videos where I'm talking to one person go the most viral because they're the most unique, right? There's no content out there that's really like that.
The information might be a commodity, but the alpha is, is you. That's right. Yeah. Um, I think we'll end it there. This has been really a pleasure speaking with you.
Uh, is there anything else you would like to leave our listeners with or anything you'd like to plug? Um, I don't think so. I mean, obviously you can find me on the internet at, uh, @careercolon or colonrocker.
Um, but no, I mean, I, I really enjoyed the conversation and, uh, yeah, I thank you. Yeah. Thank you for coming on. And listener, I will see you next week.
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