I don't think there's a more fragmented, nuanced, complicated sports fan base in the entire world than soccer in America. Major League Soccer is catching up to the NHL.
We have the second highest total attendance of any soccer league throughout the globe. The league has grown dramatically. Big audience, big influence, millions of followers.
If we've got one thing right, I think it's our positioning, which is really leaning into being the soccer specialist, the soccer experts who can navigate the space in this country.
If you have advice for both creators and brands who want to work with them on how to achieve really successful partnerships. That's a big old question, Francis. What a way to s- what a way to start, what a way to start.
Well, welcome back to the Creator Spotlight podcast. Today we are speaking with Kyle Shelton, the founder and CEO of Name and Number, a soccer-specific marketing and creative agency founded in 2022.
Kyle has also been working in and around soccer for two decades, um, including head of marketing roles at three Major League Soccer clubs, DC, Seattle, and Chicago. So we are gonna have a lot to talk about.
It's great to be here, Francis. Thank you for having me. Yes, of course. Um, okay, we should start with your career history.
So like I said, you've been working in soccer for two decades, minus a three-year stint- Yeah... at NASCAR. You started at DC United as a comms coordinator 20 years ago this year.
Um, and at that time too, MLS had only been around for a decade. So I...
This is maybe a bit too broad of a question, too wide, but, um, I would love to hear how you've seen the sports marketing indust- I guess specifically the soccer marketing world change over the last 20 years as the technology has changed and as the sport has developed in this country.
That's a big old question, Francis. What a way to- We can start with the first chapter... what a way to start. What a way to start. We'll break it down into chapters maybe. Yeah. You know, I'm, I'm fortunate...
I mean, like, the s- the sort of very quick background is lifelong soccer player and fan. I've loved the sport since I was a kid. Three siblings, we all played. I played very poorly in college.
[laughs] I was a D3 benchwarmer. That's not false modesty. Um, but I've always loved the sport, and I felt very fortunate to start my kind of official career at DC United in 2005. Mm-hmm.
Uh, for those that know soccer a little bit, you'll remember the Freddy Adu era, the 14-year-old who at the time was the, the youngest player ever signed in American professional sports.
And, um, you know, I'm, I'm 44 years old. I graduated college in 2003, so I've had this really int... I, I feel like I'm one of those... I'm in that generation where I was still faxing box scores when I started- Wow...
my career, uh, maybe a little before 2005, but even as an intern in 2003 and 2004. Um, so I've seen the, the full gamut.
Um, and so truly there are chapters to, uh, the sport, uh, as well as how you communicate and how you reach an audience.
Um, so I feel really fortunate to be in a position where I've, I feel like I've kind of seen it all, um, from a- Mm...
fully analog and, and non-digital and making phone calls and sending faxes to obviously now the, the fragmented space we're in. So happy to go deeper on any of that, but- Yeah... it's been an interesting journey.
Well, I should say, so you started in comms, and then I think around '20, maybe earlier, but by around 2010 you were kind of the head of marketing role for DC United, and then those are the roles you've held ever since except for at NASCAR you had a more focused role on social media.
Yeah. And then now running your own agency, obviously you're back to a more broad purview. Um, but so you've been kind of at the higher strategic level on the, on all your marketing work since around 2010, right?
It maybe looks that way, Francis. I would say the whole way through when you're working in MLS, it's still very much... You know, while it's grown a ton, right? And just, I'll give it just a little bit of context.
When I came into, uh, DC United, entry-level communications coordinator, making no money, writing press releases- Yeah... doing the media guide, they were, they were going from 10 teams to 12 teams in MLS at that time.
And they were- Now it's 30. And now it's 30. Yeah. Now it's 30. So it's grown significantly. Um,
and so, you know, I think even, even today if you're in a head of marketing role at a club as I have been over my last couple stops, is you're still in it. You're still doing- Yeah... the work in a lot of cases.
Certainly, you know, I've managed teams of 20, 25 at MLS clubs. Um, but yeah, you sort of... And I love the work, so I'm not...
It's not a complaint, but there's sort of an element of it's strategic combined with, you know, digging into the details as well. Yeah. Yeah. You're a, you're not the coach. You're, you're a player coach.
[laughs] That's a, that's a good way to think about it. And now- [laughs]... you know, running my own shop, I've been able to grow from just myself to now six full-time people, but you're still, you're still in it.
So I love, I love all of it. Um, I love the strategic part. I love the doing. I love the work. I love the relationship building. You know, there's value in, there's value in all of it.
We should talk about why you launched Name and Number when you did, uh, which is your agency, and then, and then maybe a little after that we'll get into the newsletter, which I'm sure some people would love to hear about.
But I see it as basically two, two things. Uh, uh, my, my guess, you can tell me if I'm right. Yeah. One is you launched it, I think, two and a half years ago, so you're at the start of your 40s.
You've been d- in this industry, in this career for 20 years, kinda time to start your own thing, own your own thing, invest in your future. Mm-hmm. Um, but it's also when you launch it, it's...
You know, it, Messi hasn't come to the US yet. That's something that is big for the industry. Uh, but the CONCACAF- Do you mean the World Cup? Up in the- The, the, the, the, the Copa América. Excuse me. Copa América.
Yeah. Uh, there's so many- You're... Francis, there's so many tournaments- There's too many... it's hard to keep track. There's too many. There's too many. Yeah. Let alone the League Cup, et cetera.
But all that to say is there's these three major tournaments coming to the, coming to the country. Um, and you know, much ink has been spilled, much podcast hours have been- Mm-hmm...
spilled, et cetera, broadcast hours about the growth of the industry in this country. Um, you sent me over a deck about your creator initiative, which we'll get into in a little bit.
Uh, but you, I think, I think you were referring to Name and Number. You, you refer to it as being the number 10 of American- [laughs]... soccer. Yeah.
Um, so it's clear to me that you're positioning this agency and yourself to be this v- driving force in growing the sport and marketing the sport in this country. Yeah. Tell me more about why you started it.
Yeah, I mean, yeah. I mean, as I said, a lifelong player and fan, so I've always had a bit of an entrepreneurial spirit.
Um, I was homeschooled growing up, as were my three siblings, so we were really encouraged to chase the things we were interested in. Mm-hmm.
And, and there was a kind of curiosity built into our education in a way that-Uh, I think has served me pretty well over the course of my career.
Um, you know, the timing was, was, to your point, it's just sort of looking at the landscape and what's coming. Uh, and at that time...
So I launched November first of twenty twenty-two, which was the month the twenty twenty-two World Cup started in Qatar. Uh, really intentionally done, of course. Um, and, you know, I looked at the...
I kind of looked at the, the broader l- soccer landscape here in the country, and there really weren't, and still sort of aren't that many soccer-specific and soccer-only agencies. Yeah.
There's only a, there's only a handful. There are certainly big sports marketing agencies that do great work in soccer, um, but I felt there was room for someone who understand the nuance of the sport in this country.
And obviously you and I were talking a little bit before jumping on and recording, uh, as a kind of late to life Arsenal fan, you know, you sort of understand there's a lot of pathways, no pun intended- Yeah...
into the sport, and the nuance that exists in the States. I tell people, "I don't think there's a more fragmented, nuanced, complicated sports fan base in the entire world than soccer in America." Hmm.
It's a very strange place that I love. Um, but really the... All of that, all of that background, and then seeing the growth up, up close, right?
And seeing the trajectory of not only MLS, but English Premier League viewership- Yeah...
and the broadcast rights that were being sold at massive numbers, the number of tournaments that are coming here, the number of friendlies that are being played in our country, the number of players that are being signed and being both imported/exported.
Like, every metric is just on a upward trajectory. And so it seemed like a good time to, to take a run at it.
Um, but as with anything, I feel like you jump into it not knowing what the response is gonna be, and we've been fortunate that really from, really from the first month or two, we've been, we've been receiving calls because if we've got one thing right, I think it's our positioning, which is really leaning into being the soccer specialist, the soccer experts- Yeah...
who can navigate the space in this country. And you've got clients from American clubs, European clubs, what is it, like, a fourth division Irish club or something like that? [chuckles] Yeah.
You, you've got people from all over the world working with you to, to reach American audiences. Yeah. The, the very first person to reach out to me was the owner of the fifth division Scottish club.
You were really close, Francis. Uh- Damn... the fifth division Scottish club who wanted to, uh, raise money, uh, as, uh, f- as part of a fan ownership push. Yeah.
And so we took that project on for, you know, very little money. It was the first project, but we were excited to do it. Took on everything, positioning, campaign, social content, video production.
We flew over to Glasgow and created a couple of videos and documentary, and they've now raised over the last two years, uh, almost three million dollars in fan ownership for a fifth division Scottish club. Oh, man.
So the sport really kind of knows no bounds, and it's actually... it's a great example because it speaks to people's desire to be connected to the sport. Mm-hmm. I think soccer has...
All sports do this to an extent, but I think soccer in particular, it, um, it speaks to kinda this global nature and, and Americans in particular love the European version of the game. They love promotion relegation.
They love the idea that a small club outside of Glasgow, Scotland, could eventually, you know, rise up multiple tiers and play against Celtic or Rangers, uh, so- It's very American dream. It is, right?
Which makes it all the more ironic that we don't have that system here. That's, uh, that's another podcast, I think, Francis. Yeah. [laughs] It certainly is. Um, okay.
We should talk about Pathway as well, which you launched one year after launching Name and Number. Um, and Name and Number, you founded as a solo founder. You're the founder and CEO.
Pathway is you, your brother, Nolan- Mm-hmm... and, um, formerly another guy, John Bao. Um, the mission stated is to help ambitious people break into and build careers in soccer. I know it as a newsletter.
Is it more than the newsletter? What is Pathway? [whooshing sound] Hey, if you're enjoying this episode, make sure you subscribe to the podcast so you don't miss next week's episode. We release a new one every Thursday.
Enjoy. [whooshing sound] It's primarily the newsletter at this stage of its life cycle.
When we launched with the three of us, uh, you know, we jumped into it a little bit not knowing kind of what the full business model would be. Mm-hmm.
I would say for myself, I think I've thought of it as a little bit of a side hustle. Uh, fortunately, Name and Number has taken up a ton of time and energy, and we've been growing rapidly.
Um, so you know, Nolan, my brother, who you mentioned, he spent his entire career on the technical side of the sport, assistant coach at DC United- Mm... and then Austin FC.
Um, really knows the on-the-field part of the game in a way that few do in this country.
And then John Bao, who you mentioned, similarly, um, on the technical side, was a scout for the US Men's National Team, was actually at the World Cup in Qatar with the Men's National Team.
And, uh, the three of us came together with the idea of how do we help people, yeah, kinda grow, break into, but then grow and, grow and build their careers. We all have a little bit of a heart for mentorship.
We've all, you know, hired and, and grown people's careers, so there's a starting point there of, um, you know, wanting to help people- It's a bit of a give, a give back type of, uh- A little bit. A little bit. Yes.
I mean, you know, not to, not to be overly, uh, you know, sort of, uh, overly clear, clear-hearted on it. I mean- Yeah... you know, we thought there was a business there as well. Yes. Right? And we still think there is.
Um, but we, we as a group, I think, really got energy and, um, you know, it felt good to try and help people navigate a space that we knew really well but that others didn't.
And the number of calls I've received over my career just from people trying to figure it out, right? It's a difficult landscape. Any industry, I think, is, and soccer, as we... as I said earlier, is very nuanced.
So, [lips smack] um, yeah, I'd say long way of saying is we tested a bunch of things last year when we had the three of us. We were doing some recruiting. Mm. We did some hiring.
Um, but you know, the newsletter was a starting point, and really we thought of it as one of the ways we wanted to build a community of people who love the sport and are interested in, in working and, and kinda growing their careers.
Um, as John, uh, uh, we're really thrilled for him. He got a top assistant job at Nashville SC.
It was a, a really cool opportunity to go work with one of his former colleagues at the US Men's National Team, BJ Callaghan. And so, uh, that left Nolan and I to, to figure it out.
So we took a little bit of a break, and we've just brought it back this year. Um, and we've really just honed the focus on the newsletter and just, um, you know, really trying to bring people into the soccer industry.
So we interview- Yeah... what we call soccer thought leaders, just people who are kinda movers and shakers in the sport. There's always a thread woven through it of, like, how do you find your way in?
How do you open the door to a potential career if that's something you wanna do? So, um, it's been, it's been really fun. It's been really rewarding.
I feel like it's one of those things, and, uh, those of us who are entrepreneurs I feel like have, you know, a list of 15 of these things, where if I dedicated all my time to it- Mm...
and really got after it, I feel like it could, it could be significant. But- Mm-hmm...
um, you know, I'm prioritizing Name and Number with Pathway as a, as a fun kind of stretch your brain in a different way project.Yeah.
So I'll describe the newsletter quickly for, for anybody who hasn't seen it or read it. Um, it's, it's pretty substantial. The... It's... I would say it's also, like, a pretty classical, like, industry newsletter format.
Like, it feels like something I could receive in the mail- Mm... and look forward to every month.
Um, so there's, like, a brief intro note from you or your brother, uh, a full-length interview with one of these soccer thought leaders you mentioned. Yeah. It's usually... It's, it's quite long.
It's us- usually around, like, 1,500 words. Yeah. Um, industry job listings, anywhere from, like, five to a dozen, and then a few links around the web.
So I know the monetization side, you know, and s- speaking of not being so clear-hearted on it- [laughs]...
I know that you, at least in the past, um, have sold inclusion in the jobs list, um, a featured job promotion- Mm... or a featured sponsor slot.
Are you still monetizing like this, or are there other ways you're doing it? We haven't been. Um, you know, and I f- I would say the...
as we've come back this year, you know, we tested a lot of things last year, some of which worked really well and some of which didn't. You know, we're still modest. I mean, in terms of size- Yeah...
you know, we're, uh, 4,000 subscribers, but it's a really engaged audience. Our open rates are around 75, 80%, so people are very tuned in, those that are there. But it's all been organic.
We haven't really done any paid promotion behind it. And on the mo- Yeah... monetization side, we've, we've sort of agreed for this year it's really about trying to just build and grow the newsletter.
I think about it differently than maybe...
I don't know if we can say this for newsletters yet, since they've had a bit of a resurgence the last several years, but it's, it's different than the traditional model, is for me it's a feeder for m- for Name and Number.
It's a feeder for new business- Yes... right? Is- That's what I thought.
Um, one, you're obviously talking to soccer thought leaders, people who are influential in the sport, many of whom I've either worked with in the past or had some relationship with in the past, but often new folks that I haven't connected to.
Um, and I think, you know, and, you know, having listened to several of your, of your interviews, you know, is just being active, being present, showing up kind of again and again really does bear fruit over time.
Mm-hmm.
And so there'll be a point where I think we will focus more on the monetization of the newsletter itself, um, but for the moment, it's continue to grow, um, you know, continue to try and build the community and look at it as, uh, another opportunity to connect into the soccer community that's here in the States.
Yeah. Well, it's... I mean, it's consolidating your position as a thought leader and as a connector, and a- as the number 10 of American Soccer.
[laughs] Maybe not you specifically, but Name and Number, however you wanna put that. But, um, that's...
That was kinda my impression, is that, yeah, it's nice to sell ads, sell job listings, whatever, but really this is about, like, you being this connector and, and knowing people and meeting people.
And like you said, I, I kind of... Looking at it, I was thinking this is not a product that you could have launched 15 years ago. Like, one, newsletters- Correct... weren't the same thing they are today.
But I mean 15 years earlier in your career- Hundred percent... 'cause you wouldn't have met all these people, you wouldn't have been able to convince them to interview.
Maybe you would've, but it would've been much harder. T- No, no, totally agree. And I think, um, you know, it... the, the... What...
How Pathway started was an extension of what was happening just over the course of my career, is having been- Yeah...
in the sport, having had connections and relationships over, you know, 15-plus years at that time, um, people were asking me for this information, right? They were asking to be connected.
They were asking for introductions. They were saying, "How do I do this?" And so it just felt like a really natural transition.
Uh, I'd say the other thing is I, I sort of got into the habit of sharing open jobs in soccer across, uh, at the time Twitter, now X. Um, and just as a, as a simple, I guess a service in some ways- Yeah...
but it was really just aggregating them, 'cause I knew where to found them, I knew... find them. I also knew how to give some context on the opportunity.
And so, you know, if you look back through my, sort of my, my Twitter history, it's these threads of all the open jobs at different points in, in soccer. Yeah.
And so that naturally, I think, led people to ask me, "How do I do this?" or, "Who can you introduce me to?" And so, uh, to that extent, yeah, Pathway is sort of a natural extension of that.
Much easier to instead of telling everybody, you know, 10 times a week to just be, "Hey, read the newsletter."
[laughs] Which you have like 14,000 followers on, on, on X, on Twitter, whatever, um, whatever you wanna call it. Has that...
Is that largely, like, a result of you being this, this resource over the years, or how did you build up that audience? Yeah. I, I, I think... Well, I would say it accelerated a little bit.
I mean, I, you know, I'm not, uh, uh... It's not a massive audience, but it's the right niche audience, and it's true on- Sure... true on LinkedIn as well, um, is I was an early adopter of Twitter, now X.
You know, when you work for a, for a pro soccer team in America, you look for any opportunity to connect with fans, right? Yeah. Traditional media coverage was hard when I started my career.
It's, you know, trying to get NBC4 in Washington, D.C. to come out and cover D.C. United when you have the, you know, formerly the Redskins and the Nationals- Yeah...
who just come to town, and, uh, you know, The Wizards, et cetera. So Twitter was sort of a natural way to try and tell our story. So I was early on the platform and really enjoyed it. I think I just...
I get a lot of energy out of connecting with fans who love- Yeah... the sport that I love. Um, and yeah, as I started to share the jobs, people just started click and follow more often.
So, um, yeah, I think that's a, it's a natural extension, and it's maybe worth just saying that my presence across those social channels have led to the bulk of the business that have come in through, through Name and Number.
Um- Yeah... almost everything we've secured over the last now two and a half years has been, has been inbound, which has, you know...
It's, it's good and bad in many ways, but, um, you know, you'd rather have more coming in than not.
Well, and especially it being organic in that you haven't paid for any growth on the newsletter, which is something I do wanna ask about, like the, the p- potential size of that audience- Mm-hmm...
for the newsletter, which is related, right, to the p- the, the, the size of the, the soccer industry in this country, which I was looking for numbers before this. I couldn't find anything good.
Everything I found was like, "Oh, there are millions of people working in the soccer industry in this country," which I'm like, "Maybe. That doesn't sound quite right."
That's probably including people who are, like, volunteering for their kid's team as a coach, whatever it is.
But, um, yeah, I'm curious what you know about the size of the industry in terms of how many people are, are working in it and how many people you could reach with a newsletter.
That's, that's really interesting, Francis. I've never... I don't know that there is data on how many people are working in the industry, and as we, as we sort of established, I mean, it's...
because it's so fragmented and nuanced, there's a lot of different ways to count it. And even- Well, let's say just MLS, how many people on average- Sure...
do you think work for any MLS team, um, on the, you know, off the field, times 30? Yeah. I'd say that number's between 80 and 150, depending on the club and the, and the market, right? Yeah.
So, you know, round numbers, 3 to, 3 to 5,000, maybe a little bit more, um, across MLS. NWSLUm, you know, smaller teams generally speaking. So I don't see that, though, as the...
I don't see that as the, uh, audience necessarily. No. It's, it's across all- Well, they're also all already working, and [laughs] Right. But although you'd be...
You know, I think I was a little bit surprised at how many folks in the industry have followed, uh, and clicked subscribe on Pathway. Um, you know, our...
We've done a few, we've done a few surveys, and the split has surprised me a little bit, and it's, it's about a third of people who are early in their career and wanna break into the industry- Hmm...
about a third who are kind of middle career and either in the industry or looking to, uh, kinda go, you know, we kinda call it a career pivot, someone who wants to break into the soccer industry but is in a different space, and then about a third are kind of senior executives, right, 15-plus years.
And- Yeah... that split surprised me a little bit, 'cause I thought it would be... I thought it would trend a little bit younger.
Um, but yeah, the potential audience is anyone who might want to work in soccer, and that is a very big number, I think. Um, who doesn't wanna combine what they do as a career and, and the sport that they love?
So we hear that all the time. I forwarded the newsletter to a childhood friend who is a professional basketball player in Newcastle, um, who is... I heard from... I was back home, I heard from his mother- Wow...
he wanted to work in industry. I was like, "You gotta, you gotta read this newsletter." Yeah. "I think you'll love it." Um- That's cool... so I'm, I'm, I'm out here spreading the good word. Thank you, sir.
Um, [laughs] of course. Uh, I think a lot of... It seems like a lot of work goes into the newsletter. Maybe not so much, but just in terms of doing the interview, cleaning up the transcript or whatever. Yeah.
Um, and you're sending it out... I know the cadence has changed a bit over- Yeah, we're every other week now. Every other week right now. Yeah. Okay, yeah. How m- how much time are you putting into each issue?
Um, so my brother and I typically split the interviews, right? You'll notice there's a pretty obvious, like, if it's off field, it's me, if it's on field, it's him. We- Yeah...
err on the side of off field a little bit more than on field, just there are more people who are interested in that. We did this year bring on a gentleman named Trey Higdon, who's got a long career in the sport as a...
It's a bit of a side hustle for him. He works on it in the evenings and weekends, but he, uh, he essentially helps get it prepped and ready. We didn't have that resource last year. We just did it the three of us. Mm-hmm.
Um, I would say in an, you know, in an average sort of cycle, I'm probably spending, you know, an hour to 90 minutes total, um, maybe not including the interview, which is obviously normally about 20, 30 minutes.
Um, so it's not a ton of time, and, and- And you probably don't have to prep so much for these interviews. The... Your depth of knowledge is so deep, it's like y- it's kinda just like having a beer, catching up.
Yeah, for, for the most part. I mean, I, I, I do take a little pride in just trying to unearth a couple things- Yeah... you know, trying to unearth, as, as you've done a nice job in your, in your research, right?
But trying to unearth a couple things that maybe are off the beaten path. Um, but I think that's right. It's... For me, it feels very comfortable and second nature, so the actual time commitment's not that significant.
Nolan spends a little bit more, and then I'd say it's probably split, you know, by percentage, Trey's probably doing 50% of the work, and Nolan and I are doing about 25%, depending on the, depending on the issue.
So, um, I do- Mm... I have a, you know, have a particular voice for it, so I do a g- I do a nice edit through the whole thing, um, and just make sure the nuance is right, right? It's, it's not hard- Mm...
to get little things wrong, and people sniff it out quickly in soccer, so. Um, but yeah, it's not, it's not a massive time investment.
Um, and I really enjoy doing it, and, I mean, I enjoy the conversations, um, I enjoy putting together.
As I said, it's sorta just stretching a different part of my brain, uh, based on everything else I'm doing with the agency. Uh, okay. Let's talk about the Name + Number Creator Collective.
My impression is that it is sort of an agency within the agency. Um, or maybe not within, adjacent to. I don't know. I need you to tell me. [laughs] Yeah, I would say, um, we've done the hard work for the brands. Yes.
So soccer... Uh, I'd say c-creators in this country, uh, that are soccer-specific, I'm not speaking to creators more broadly, creators in sports- Mm-hmm... soccer-specific creators, um, are like the fan base.
It's fragmented, and there's a lot of nuance, and it has grown a lot the last few years, but navigating it is hard. If you were a brand and you just w- said, "Man, we really wanna be in soccer.
Who are the creators we connect... could connect to?" It would be very difficult to try and figure- Yeah... that out.
So we've spent the better part of six months identifying the creators that we've brought onto the collective, all of whom we've worked with before, which is really important to us. We're not just- Oh...
grabbing someone out of, kind of out of thin air and saying, "These guys have a big following." We've actually brought them into projects already.
So it's k- it's kinda like over the past two years running, running Name + Number, you start, like, a brand would be like, "Hey, we gotta do this," and you're like, "Okay, we should...
We, we'll get distribution in this way by bringing in some creators." And then at, at a certain point, you're like, "Hey, we've gotten good at this." Yeah. "Everyone wants it.
What if we kind of made this its own offering?" Exactly right. And in some ways, it was the brand asking for it, but it actually, in most cases, it was us suggesting it and weaving it into existing projects.
And I'll give you an example. We had a... We work with, uh, Bayer Leverkusen, who are the Bundesliga champions, uh, best team in Germany over the course of the last, you know, 18 months or so. They've won three trophies.
They've had a ton of success in the field. They brought their trophies over to New York City, uh, last September, and the assignment was a trophy tour watch party event.
One day in New York, we, uh, went to a German beer house. It was awesome. Um, had the trophies there, had their mascot, Brian the Lion, there.
But there wasn't additional budget to do more than kind of run the event, and so we- Yeah... tapped into our creator relationships and brought 10 creators into the event.
We booked a field sort of in between the two primary elements of the event, and just let 'em play. We got 'em all vintage Leverkusen kits, so they're all wearing the brand, right?
And it's, like, cool heritage, uh, soccer teams. Those vintage Leverkusen, they're great. They're cool, right? You got the Alta Seltzer logo, et cetera. Oh, so cool. Those are great.
And, and, and that, you know, that culture, that sort of the f- the fashion footy culture is so prominent. So, um, it wasn't a lot more than that.
It was just, we just brought in people we had relationships with, gave them the freedom to create stuff that worked for their channels and their platforms- Mm-hmm...
which I think is the most important thing in working with, with creators, is ensuring that whatever you do, there's a, there's a bridge between...
Obviously, the brand has particular objectives, the club has particular objectives, but what is the creator's voice? What type of content do they produce?
So we wanted to give them the freedom to create the type of content that they feel good about and comfortable with, and, and that- Yeah... resonates with their audience.
Um, but you know, that, that was an assignment where it was like this is an experiential assignment.
We brought in creators, and so the, you know, the knock-on and amplification effect of that, over a million organic impressions across our content.
How do you amplify this, this time and place moment into something that becomes, like, a digital, uh, uh, thing with millions, with potentially millions of people- Yeah, that's right... seeing it?
Yeah, and it's, and it's all, you know, all pointed towards trying to connect with American soccer fans.
And, you know, I can say more broadly is that everyone around the world-Who is invested in the sport of soccer or knows a little bit about soccer, is trying to figure out what's their US plan. What's their- Yeah...
North America plan more broadly. And, um, it's a difficult place to come into. Um, we talked to brands and clubs around the world, and everyone knows they need to be here, uh, because of- Mm-hmm...
not only because of the World Cup, just the growth and the opportunity in this country.
And so certainly with the agency, that's part of what we're trying to do, and Creator Collective's another way to try to plug into... plug them into the existing soccer fan base here. Yeah.
Uh, okay, I wanna get into something else there, but real quick, I wanna take a tangent on the fashion side of things. Yeah. Because I think as somebody who...
I consume a lot of soccer content, um, especially on Twitter and on Instagram, Instagram Reels, um, whether it's, you know, clips of games, et cetera, whatever.
Uh, but I think that fashion aspect is a really big one, and that's something that is, goes far beyond, um, sports fan culture, right?
Like, I think it- it's become so trendy in the past three or four years, maybe really since the 2022 World Cup, I don't know, um, to, to see, like, vintage kits or, like, fashion brands doing their own kits.
Balenciaga was doing, like- Mm-hmm... a, a series of kits recently.
Um, and I know one of your, I think, pretty sure this was in the deck you sent me, one of the biggest successes you guys have had with social media is this World Soccer Shop, um, campaign, which was, like, an ASMR, uh- Mm...
video of, of World Soccer Shop in their warehouse, like, just, like, you know, scratching all the different patches that you have to... Like, the Premier League patch. Yeah. The Euro, the Euro patch.
The official patches, yeah. Yeah, exactly. Um, that's a really interesting element that I hadn't thought of to talk about, uh, when I was prepping for this. Mm-hmm.
But I think that's probably something you are leveraging, or trying to find ways to leverage, right? Yeah, absolutely.
I mean, I think, I think the, the closest kind of approximation in sports is the NBA, which has, I think, kind of fashion culture woven through it in a way that, not that it isn't, but I think NFL, MLB, NHL, it's just, it's just less so.
Um, soccer being the most global sport, um, you know, it, it is able to connect to, to fashion in a way that, um, maybe other sports can't. Certainly not in the same way.
And you're seeing it across the clubs around the world. You mentioned, uh, the one collaboration, you know, Off-White. There's a bunch of examples, uh, of- Oh, with Elon, yeah.
Yeah, just high fashion brands doing collaborations within the sport of soccer. Um, but not just high fashion.
I mean, like, you know, there's a lot of, there's a lot of collaborations happening even in the US with, you know, um, sort of street wear brands, skate shops. Um- Mm-hmm... that stuff happens a lot in soccer.
Um, you know, just to the World Soccer Shop, uh, mention, you know, I have to shout out, uh, a woman on our team named Caitlin Stevens, who is a creator herself, is on our team full time and has really been the driving force behind the Creator Collective because, uh, she has the relationships, she knows the space really well, she creates herself.
Um, she, she has been working with World Soccer Shop for a number of years, and it's a, it's a really good example for how the Creator Collective can work. That, that, uh, engagement is sort of twofold.
One is we have sort of a content studio where we produce content that's just of the jerseys, and it's showing off the- Yeah... highlights and the little elements of, of the jerseys.
But then we have three creators who are on year-long engagements that are, uh, that they produce content on a monthly basis. So, um, it varies, right?
It could be one piece of content a month for some of our bigger creators. It could be three to five pieces of content a month, um, for some of the smaller creators.
Um, but I think what's really interesting about it and important, one is it gives the brand the opportunity to have consistent content. They know what's coming.
We're working with them obviously on what type of content, what's the topic, what, what other clubs we're featuring.
But then for the creator, you know, if you're an, if you're a solo creator or you're a crea- you're, you're being a creator as a side hustle, is having some consistent income happening- Yes...
over a course of a year is a big deal, even if that's not, like, a ton. That's hard to secure.
It's hard, and so as we, a lot of, a lot of the collective comes out of having those conversations with creators and saying, "Man, I had this month where, you know, I made 50 grand, and then I had three months where I didn't make anything."
And so it's like that, you know, that ebb and flow is, is difficult.
I don't know if we'll be able to solve that for all of the creators, but certainly one of our objectives is to both find some creative, uh, sorry, so rather some consistent income and obviously solve creative, creative problems for the clients who are, all have to feed the beast of social and are looking for interesting ways to do it.
Well, so another thing I wanted to ask about here is looking at your roster of creators. I know some of them have representation and some of them don't, which goes back to that- Mm...
mix of, you know, the grassroots, the, the, the, [laughs] the Central American midfielder- Yeah... who's gonna, gonna go to the Premier League, et cetera. Um, h- what is the business model there? Like, how do you...
[lip smacks] I mean, uh, I'm interested not just in the clients, but in you and like the- Understood...
like the, the, what, what flows to you, what flows to the creator, what flows to their management, um, where the brand is the client. How does this get split, and how do you price these things?
Is it based on, on view, on reach? Yeah. Yeah, I mean, the, the, uh, I'll be upfront and say there'll be, there's a little bit of exploration on how it's going to work, I think, and I do think it will evolve as we go.
What we've established with those who have representation is essentially, and this is where sort of the hard work has come in over multiple months, right?
Conversations with agents, conversations with the creators, understanding their priorities and where they have challenges and w- you know, sort of what they're trying to do over the course of the next, uh, I mean, multiple years, but really we're talking about the next 18 months as you head into the World Cup.
We all- Yeah... acknowledge and understand that's the opportunity.
So we have a sort of a master services agreement with, uh, the agents and the creator, the agency and the creator, um, which sort of establishes some of the, some of the ground rules.
Um, importantly for us is we didn't want to, um, we didn't sort of wanna inject ourselves into the relationship between the agency and the creator. We're not interested- Mm... in being agents. We wanna be a facilitator.
And so as I said earlier- You're a layer between brands and creators. Yeah, so we- Yeah... we're already working with, with the brands, right? We're already working- Yeah... with the clubs.
And, and for creators, I think that's the hardest part often, even sometimes with, with agencies. And, you know, there, there's, there aren't any soccer-specific represent- agencies that represent creators, right?
These creators are, are working with certainly folks who know the soccer industry, and it's not to, not to diminish what they know and their relationships, but they're doing other things. They're doing broadcasts.
They're doing, you know, they're doing... You know, we, we talked to one creator whose, you know, whose agent was, it was, uh, it was the only soccer creator she had.
She worked in food, and so she had 10 other people on her roster- Mm... but they're all in, like, the food and restaurant business. And, you know, she's great at her job. She's helping this creator, uh, be successful.
But again, I think it's, it kinda comes back to if, if we're the soccer specialists, if we know the sport better than most, and I say that with no ego, but we do. We've got great people who know- Yeah...
and understand the sport. American Soccer is number 10. American Soccer is number 10. [laughs] Thank you, Francis. I think that's the third mention. Appreciate it. Um- It's a great line. I, I love it.
[laughs] That's why it's, it's burned in my brain. Shout out Tim Whit- t- shout out Tim Whitney on the team who wrote that, that copy for our, our new biz deck.
Um-You know, is, is we're the conduit, we're the facilitator. I mean, truly the number 10 is the representative thing, right? We sit in the middle of the field. Yeah. We're the connector, we're the playmaker.
We're bringing in the right midfielder. We're pinging the ball over the top to the, to the forward. Um, and so just to come back to the structure of it is, we have established rate cards.
We sort of know their starting point. Obviously, always-- that's always flexible, it's always negotiated. But, um, we're not injecting ourselves into that relationship between the agent and the creator. Yeah.
That sort of sits separate. Whatever their arrangement is, great. Where I think the value comes for us is, we've now negotiated these deals across five different agencies, 12 different creators.
There's no work for the brand to do there. They come to us, and we can provide them with sort of a suite of options depending on what they wanna do, who they wanna connect with- Mm-hmm... um, and make it really turnkey.
And ideally for us, you know, I think the-- we wanna add a layer of what a strategic consultation look like beyond creators, right?
As opposed to just going to one creator and saying, "Hey, could you give me four posts for ten grand?" It's, "You wanna connect to soccer fans? This is one way to do it.
Let us help advise you on how else you can do it," whether that's, you know, owned and organic, whether that's paid, whether that's a partnership with someone in the sport. Yeah.
Um, there's a lot of different ways to connect to soccer fans, as you know. So, um, you know, we haven't...
We, we've got three existing clients who are, uh, uh, it might be four, who are already connected into our creators.
Um, now we'll start the process of, as we make the announcement next week, as we're recording, uh, we'll go out next Wednesday. Um, and we'll see. We'll see sort of what comes in.
We'll, well, obviously it'll become a part of our new business pitch, and we'll just have it as another tool in the toolbox for fans, uh, for rather, for, uh, for our brands to connect with American soccer fans. Yeah.
Um, one thing I... American soccer fans. Speaking of that, I wanna get into the American-European divide that you've kind of, uh, touched on a lot here, and how it's so fragmented here. Mm-hmm.
How in Europe, you, you haven't said this explicitly, but implying that in Europe it's less fragmented.
Um, and I think of my own consumption of soccer content and soccer creators, and it's because I follow the English Premier League and Bundesliga, et cetera, so much of the content I see is these, these European creators.
Like I, I, I think specifically, I think of a couple German and British people- Mm-hmm... who I get so much of their content. Is there anything you have learned from how this works in, in, in Europe?
Are there like, you know, not necessarily partners, but peers you've spoken to to learn like how to take something about the landscape there over here? That's an interesting question.
You know, at, the a- the answer is not really. Um, you know, we are obviously are in tune with what's happening abroad.
Um, but our focus really is on, is exclusively on just, I mean, it's kind of a bit blinders on as we're, we're focused on American soccer.
And so I think there are certainly lessons to be taken from Europe, which is just more advanced, right, in terms of its soccer fandom, its football fandom. Yeah. Um, but yeah, I would say, I, I...
Now as you ask the question, I'm like, "Maybe we should be spending more time looking at what creators are doing in Europe." Thanks, Francis. But, um, uh- [laughs] No problem. Yeah...
but yeah, I'd say it's, it's just, it's, it's, you know, it's, it's obviously bigger over there. Uh, it's on a, it's on a completely different scale and level.
Um, and right or wrong, I would say we're so in tune with what's happening here in the US and sort of what it takes to be successful in the US, that that's really been our focus. Yeah.
Uh, so I wanna pivot away from the soccer bit and go back into your career to the NASCAR years. So you were at NASCAR 2013, 2014, 2015. Yeah.
Three full years, and you had switched from DC United, where you were in some head of marketing role- Mm-hmm... and then here you were really focused on social media.
And that was, that's a really interesting time to have been working in social media. Yeah. Uh, uh, I mean, I think I got my Instagram account in 2014. Yeah. Um- You and NASCAR both... social media. Yeah. [laughs] Yes.
Well, exactly. Yeah. And so that's what I wanna ask about, like very different time from now and kind of a, you know, time when all these norms were being forged. I'm sure you did a lot then that you don't do now. Yeah.
But I'm sure there's also a lot that you learned, um, and had to figure out that you still lean on.
So tell me about that time and some of the challenges you had to deal with and some of what you still have taken from then that, uh, that's in use today. Yeah. Yeah, that was a... It was, um...
People always sort of chuckle when I tell them I worked at NASCAR 'cause it's just so markedly different than, than soccer in this country, right? Yeah. It's a, it's largely an older fan base. It's a big fan base.
I mean, one of the things I learned was that NASCAR is big business, and they got a lot of fans. Passionate fans too. Oh, man. People don't really understand.
I think, I think NASCAR has a lot of, it clearly has a lot of kind of preconceived notions about what it is and who the fan base is. Mm-hmm.
And not all of them are false, but the reality when you're in it is you realize how big and significant the sport is and how big the s- the driver... I mean, the drivers are stars.
I was working with Dale Earnhardt Jr.- Yeah... and Jeff Gordon and Jimmie Johnson and Kevin Harvick, and these guys had massive followings.
And the thing that was really, um, enjoyable, and I mean, I learned so much, uh, from that, that entire experience, but they were really plugged into their fans. Mm.
They knew their fan bases better than any athletes I'd worked with previously, and I, I, I don't know if that's still the case. I would assume that it is. But they were active on social. They were engaged.
They wanted to learn. At that time, as you said, uh, '13, '14, '15, um, you know, Twitter was obviously significant. Facebook was, uh, probably a bigger player, not probably, it was a bigger player than it is now.
I was on Facebook a lot back then. I haven't really touched it for like six years now. I think that's, that's, you know, behavior's changed a lot, right- Yeah... in the last 10 years.
Um, and so Instagram was coming on, but like literally drivers were joining Instagram during that time. Uh, I, I brought NASCAR onto the platform for the first time. We launched on Instagram.
I remember getting in there and going like, "How are you guys not on Instagram? Like it's already big enough that you should be on it." Yeah. Um, so it's just a totally different time.
But, um, you know, as, and as someone who didn't know the sport, I was not a NASCAR guy.
I told them in my interview, I'd never watched a NASCAR race in full, so if you want someone who understands what this is, do not hire me.
But if you want someone who's gonna bring in different ideas, um, I'd be, I'd love the challenge. Um- Which is why you went, to, to also gain different ideas for yourself to, to bring back to soccer later.
I didn't tell them that in the interview, but the idea was always what can I learn from a different industry? You gave them three years. [laughs] Yeah. [laughs] That's a long time.
It would've been longer, but the, yeah, the Seattle Sounders came calling a little bit unexpectedly. Um- Yeah... but I, you know, I did it, I did it really intentionally. At that time, I actually had, uh...
Again, same with the league, I just had other opportunities. I had an opportunity with the New York Rangers. I could've gone to another MLS team, or I could've gone to an N- to the NWSL league at that time.
Um, all just had sort of opportunities with that window, and I chose NASCAR 'cause I felt like it would provide me with the most different and disparate experience from my own. And, um- Yeah...
and again, it was big business. You think about the Fortune 500, Fortune 100 brands for the sport.
I mean, I was in the room as a, whatever I was at the time, you know, 32, 33-year-old kid-Um, [lip smack] you know, with 3M, with Ford, with Toyota, with Coca-Cola, just exposure I wouldn't have otherwise gotten.
And so it- Yeah... for me, it added a layer, I think, of like polish and a depth of business understanding that I didn't have coming from what was... You know, and D.C.
United was a, was a big and successful club by MLS standards, but not by NASCAR standards. And so- Well, and MLS was, as a league, was much smaller, probably much less money flowing into it- Totally... at that time.
You might not have been having these conversations with brands this big for deals this big if you were still at MLS at that time. No question. And I think, um, you know, the...
while the platforms have changed, the algorithms have changed, the fundamentals, I don't think, have changed all that much, right? Is it's still connection. It's still community-building. It's still entertainment.
It's still education. It's still- Mm-hmm... um, you know, it's still how do you build interest and, uh, connectivity across a group of humans that, you know- Yeah...
either wanna be entertained or want some sort of connection. And so those fundamentals have- Medium changes, the goal doesn't. I think that's right. Right? Mm-hmm.
And so, um, the fundamentals haven't changed, while perhaps the platforms and the algorithms have.
Outside of NASCAR, back to soccer, are there any clubs or players that you think are doing social media or creator-driven work really well right now? Yeah, it's hard to, it's hard to pick one.
There's so many that are doing well. I mean, certainly, uh, you've seen the investment, I think, over the last five years in particular, uh, really come into sports broadly, but soccer- Yeah... as well.
You know, people always point to, and I think appropriately so, I know it's your club, but I'll say it anyway, Arsenal does an incredible job with their- Mm-hmm... with their content.
I think that's really, it's really elevated. It's diverse. Um, you know, they seem to really, uh, uh, focus on, uh, platform-specific content production, right? It's not just kinda spray and pray. Um- Yeah...
I think they really do a nice job of creating content for the channel, for the platform. Um- One, one I'll, one I'll hand you, uh, one of your own clients, Borussia Dortmund. Yeah. Um, I think they do a great job.
On their Instagram, they are creating, like, Instagram native, um, you know, meme format type- Yeah...
of content that feels timely and feels, like, really polished to the level that a professional club should be, but still with a bit of that raw edge that social media content should have. I really admire what they do.
No, I totally, I totally agree with you. Uh, Sport5 runs their social accounts, I believe- Mm-hmm... uh, still. They're a big, you know, international, uh- An agency. Yeah, an agency. Okay. Yeah.
Um, they work really closely with the club. But a lot of the clubs have, uh, hired agencies to do their international channels, um- Mm-hmm... you know, whether that's a US-focused or an English language channel.
Certainly, uh, as the sport grows more broadly, you're seeing, uh, you know, uh, Chinese language channels, um- Yeah... Indian channels, you know, uh, Portuguese, uh, trying to ta- tackle Brazil.
So there are a number of agencies that are managing club accounts these days, and Sport5 does a great job with, with Dortmund. They certainly have...
I think they've pushed the boundaries of what you'd expect from a professional team, to your point, is it gets a lot of meme content. I'm old enough now where I feel like I used to be plugged in everything.
I see stuff, and I'm like, "I honestly have no idea where that came from." [laughs] I have to go search for it, and that's a little bit embarrassing. But, uh, yeah, Borussia Dortmund does a great job.
And then on, on the players side, um, I'm a big fan of, I'm a big fan generally of Trinity Rodman, who's with the Washington Spirit- Mm. Yeah... US Women's National Team.
Uh, she's, you know, not, like, often active, but, uh, but when she's on, whether TikTok or Instagram, just the personality that comes out, you feel like, you know, it's, it's one of those, like, it feels like it could be your friend's account.
And I think- Yeah... for players to be accessible, to show warmth, to show their personality is, is still, again, fundamental, but, uh, a lot of players don't do it. I think she does a great job. Yeah.
Um, one person I talked to last year in the soccer/football world, uh, are... Not this guy, but are you familiar with the UK football creator John Nellis? I've heard the name. I can't say I've followed. Yeah.
Big YouTuber. Um, he... I think they're around 3 million followers right now, but at the beginning of last year, it was, like, 650,000. They've grown a lot. Wow.
I spoke to his, his YouTube strategist, this guy Alex Emery, and one thing that really stuck with me that he said is how they went to the Euros, um, and they got, I forget the exact numbers, some millions of views that was more total than, like, five...
than, like, BBC, Sky, uh, DAZN, uh, a, a number, a number of, like, traditional broadcasters. Their short form, their social media content didn't hold a candle to- Mm... the engagement that John's got.
And he was trying to make a point about the power that creators have relative to broadcasters, though of course broadcasters still have the license for the games. Yeah. And John couldn't show...
He couldn't go to the game and film the game. Could show highlights. Yeah. Exactly. But what he could do is, like, come up with these concepts of, like, oh, you know, there's a, a deposit on the cups.
If you bring 'em back, you get a euro or whatever it was. Mm-hmm. So I'm gonna see how many I can collect and have this massive tower- Right... and get millions of views doing that.
So I'm interested if you have any thoughts on the relationship and, like, I don't know if power dynamics is the right way to frame it, but between these rising creators and the traditional broadcasters. Yeah.
Well, it's, it's interesting because it all eventually overlaps, doesn't it? It's, uh, it's sort of funny how it happens. And so another example, you know, IShowSpeed who obviously- Just a couple weeks ago. Yeah...
you know, very, very big creator, um, you know, has a particular style and personality that many love. Um, you know, he's now on, uh, Paramount+'s Champions League coverage with- Yeah...
some frequency over the course of the last couple weeks. And- Which seemed, uh, I'll say, I c- I watched... I think I watched live, um- Yeah... the...
when he was on, and then the previous week when he was kinda brought up as a joke, and I honestly can't tell if that was intentional- Right...
or kind of casual, and then the producers pivoted and, like, "Let's actually get him on next week." Yeah. I could not tell if, if it was- I don't know either. Yeah. I, I know a couple people over there. I should...
I'll ping 'em after and ask. Um, yeah, you could see it being a setup, right? It's like, "Well, hey, we know we've got IShowSpeed coming next week. Let's, let's, uh, let's talk about it this week." Um- Yeah...
but, you know, it's, it's, uh, uh, you know, then you saw the Sidemen, uh, match that happened at Wembley, right? Sold out, raised 5 million-plus.
Um-And, you know, the, the highlights out of that, which is not professional soccer players playing soccer, but massive creators, influencer personality- I don't even know what was the score, 8-8-8 at the end or something?
[laughs] Yeah. [laughs] I don't even know. Yeah, ridiculous. But, you know, Speed, Speed, um, you know, uh, assisting on a goal had millions of views. Um- Yeah...
so, you know, our team- It was Adidas, I think it was Adidas' biggest, most views ever on- I think that's right... on one of their videos. I think that's right. Short form videos, yeah. Right.
And, um, you're just, you're seeing, you know, we had, um, Caitlin, who I mentioned earlier, who's on our team, who's a creator- Yeah... was at, uh, was at a, a couple different events in Atlanta.
Uh, creators are just, they're, they're... Again, creators, uh, who have influence, I mean, they're being invited to these events, being woven into them. Yeah.
And I think it's interesting when you see the collision of someone who's maybe traditionally on a TikTok or an Instagram or YouTube, and now they're being pulled into the kind of bigger broadcast, um, uh, channels, and, you know, they're seeing the benefit of them.
I mean, you look- if you go and look and do a quick scroll through Paramount Plus, their, their, their handle is, uh, CBS Sports Golazo, and you look at the Speed content, it is the most viewed and most engaged stuff that they've done, with probably the exception of a couple of the, you know, biggest goals and highlights.
But- Well, let's say, too, like with Speed, so he, you know, when he was 17 or whatever, he's streaming, and then maybe, maybe this is only three... I think he's, like, 20 now.
So it was like three years ago, he's streaming, and somebody donates, like, £1.79, and, and he says, like, "Cristiano Ronaldo, sui." [laughs] And then that's like...
I wat- I watched this great, like, um, 15-minute YouTube video the other day, like, kinda charting his rise. Yeah. Uh, and, and then now he becomes this, like, huge global fan base, and it was...
The way this video I watched framed it is, like, once he starts doing that and becomes this Ronaldo super fan is when he starts really reaching the international audience. Mm-hmm.
And then he's going on tour, um, to, like, through South America, through Southeast Asia, and there's these rabid fan bases where it's like he actually has to really plan in advance to not, like- Yeah...
shut a city down because there's so many people. Um, and that's, like, a global audience thing, which then [scoffs] brings it back to he...
This is an American creator, but he is, uh, engaging with audiences because of European football. Yeah.
He's engaging with global audiences, and there's this disconnect where, like, how do you get him being, like, a Pulisic super fan or whatever it is? Uh, he, he's from Ohio. Be- being a- Yeah...
Columbus Crew super fan- Right... and, like, promoting that. Um, there's this, [sighs] there's this thing where, like, this is this massive, powerful force, but it's connected again to the global game, not the US game.
Yeah. Well, you're speaking to the, you're speaking to the challenges that exist in the US broadly, right? Mm-hmm. Which is...
I mean, what I say all the time is, you know, you could be, you could be in Atlanta and not care at all about Atlanta United, even though they draw 50,000, 60,000 fans a game. It's the biggest, uh...
Yeah, it's like one of the second biggest attendances in the world. They, they, they, when the- when they open the full, they open the full building... You know, they couldn't do it probably 17 times a year, but- Yeah...
a couple times a year they'll open the full building, and it'll be, you know, top three in attendance in the world- Mm-hmm... um, to your point.
So, but, you know, you've, you've got this weird reality in the US where you could have someone in Atlanta who isn't an Atlanta United fan, loves Arsenal, and will get up- Yeah...
at 5:00 in the morning to watch an Arsenal game, but won't go across the street to see a game at Mercedes-Benz 'cause they see the product as inferior. Yeah.
But at the same time, you could have a friend who loves Atlanta United, is a season ticket holder, and loves PSG, but by the way, also loves Man United for whatever reason, right? Those connections are not always clear.
Um, and so, like- Maybe a big Ibrahimović guy anyways. Totally, exactly, yeah. So you, but you're speaking to that nuance even through the, you know, the, the lens of Speed, which is
my approach is always, my m- my way, my perspective has always been, uh, we can't really worry about it. You're not gonna win over every European soccer fan, right?
The phrase that gets used, uh, in MLS historically is Eurosnob. Yeah. It's like some people have just decided, and that's okay. Like, they've just decided, "I wanna watch the best in the world."
Fine, that's Premier League. Just is, right? Mm-hmm. Bundesliga, La Liga, Serie A, all very, very good. MLS isn't that, but MLS can be valuable. The experience is great. The community is here.
There's a lot of reasons why MLS has value if you're okay with it not being the best in, in the world, and a lot of American sports fans aren't.
Um, but I think as we've seen the growth of the, growth of MLS specifically, and to a lesser extent NWSL, is, uh, there are a lot of people who are, who are now, uh, hardcore and avid MLS fans, and you're seeing that growth happen.
And I'll say one other thing, Francis, which is one of the things I didn't anticipate when I started my career in the sport 20-plus years ago was the growth in the small and mid-size markets. Mm.
And as we record this, a very funny thing happened yesterday where Ronaldinho, one of the most famous players, uh, in, in history, was in Greenville, South Carolina with the Greenville Triumph.
Uh, I think he's maybe a part owner or something, but it was- [laughs]...
I just, I found it to be just the most hilarious thing is here's Ronaldinho, absolute legend, walking down the field to watch Greenville Triumph, which is part of United Soccer League.
Um, but that sort of stuff is happening. So this- Mm-hmm... the growth of the sport isn't just in the New Yorks and the LAs and the Miamis. It's happening across, um, small and mid-size markets across the country.
And what I don't think people anticipate about the '26 World Cup is the host cities, of course, will be bumping, and there'll be activities. Yeah.
I think every, every major mid and small market is gonna do something around the World Cup in 2026, and it's just gonna be across the entirety of the country, and people are undervaluing how that will take place in some of the markets that aren't hosting games.
I think it's gonna be significant. You know, you think about the World Cup, it's... It, I, I say it, it's the biggest sporting event in human history, right? Yeah. It's expanding the number of teams.
It's the first time three nations have hosted. It's the most games ever played. I don't know if you're aware, Francis, but the most attended World Cup to date of all time is which one, do you know?
It is the 1994 US World Cup. It is the 1994 US World Cup. Um, despite, you know, the growth of the game happening a lot since then, uh, we got big stadiums here. Yeah.
And so now, now you're gonna have significantly more games. I mean, uh, that was- And we love spectacle. We do love spectacle. We love a show. And again, best in the world. You're, you... It's like the Olympics.
You think you're seeing... You're actually not, in many cases, uh, you're missing some of the best players in the world, truly, but- At the Olympics... for the most part... No, no, even at the World Cup, right? Yeah.
It's like there are, there are great players whose national teams aren't very good. Erling Haaland wasn't at the last World Cup. Exactly. Exactly. Exactly.
Um, so you know, yeah, when you see New Zealand play, uh, Portugal, like, that's not the best team in the world, right? But- No shade to Chris Wood. [laughs] No shade to Chris Wood. Good shout.
Um-So in the '94 World Cup, 3.4 billion, uh, so 3.4 million people attended that. It probably will be in excess of seven million for the- Wow...
2026 World Cup, because they're playing more venues, more games, and obviously the stadiums here are massive. So again, not to, not to, uh, belabor the point, but it's gonna be a massive, massive, uh, event, and- Mm...
will, I think, take over the country for the better part of four or five weeks. I mean, the last World Cup,
m- I, I alone am proof that, like, you know, I now spend hours every week either watching a game, uh, reading articles on The Athletic, you know, scrolling through Instagram.
I've, uh, I, I will admit I've done some sports betting. [laughs] I've, you know, bought many beers at bars to watch games. I've been to games in Germany. I've, you know, been to, et cetera.
That World Cup alone has, like, spurred me as, like, probably putting, I don't know, maybe a couple thousand dollars into soccer-related things- Probably at least, right?... into bars because of soccer, et cetera.
So- Well, I-... multiply that by millions.
To, to bring it back to, you know, some of your early questions about why, why to launch the agency, why launch Pathway is you're describing it, which is, uh, for us, the World Cup is not a destination.
It's an accelerator- Yeah... for the sport that we love, right?
Ultimately, I'm gonna hopefully look back on a long career in the sport and be really proud of helping, you know, playing a very small role, but helping it to grow.
Um, and so a lot of, you know, a lot of brands and agencies are kind of dropping into the sport now, uh- Mm-hmm... because of the World Cup, but for us, we just see it as an accelerator.
And so all the new fans are gonna come out of it. They're younger. They're tech-savvy. They're digital. Brands are gonna wanna connect to those folks, and we're over here saying, "Hello, we can help." Yeah.
I actually do have one last question- Yeah... for, for the creator audience.
Um, as somebody who has worked in social media, run social media accounts for these big brands, and now working with creators on behalf of brands, um, I guess if you have advice for both creators and brands who want to work with them on how to achieve really successful partnerships.
Yeah, I mean, there's a lot of ways to answer that. I think what, what, what still am...
Like, what comes to mind is that I'm still amazed to see big brands, Fortune 500 companies, who are working with top-tier athletes in the US. There's an example in, in my head.
I won't name names, uh, but big financial services brand working with a US ones national team player recently, and she's reading off a script, right?
With, with someone holding the phone, and it's just, it's, it's so bland. It's so boring. Yeah.
And so it's just, you know, the word gets way overused, but authenticity is just so important, and allowing the creator the freedom and the room to...
Like, you've gotta give them a little bit of space to do what they do because they know their audience. They know the channel. It's the reason- Yeah... you hire them.
And when you, when you bring in a creator, and then you put them in this box where there's no expression, there's no connection to what they typically do, I actually think it's worse than even doing anything, right?
[laughs] It's like let them do what they do. Yeah. And, like, there's always gonna be a little massaging to that, right? It's like the brand, obviously, there's a, there's a talking point. There's a product.
There's something that they want to, uh, bring to the fore, but it's really the marriage of those two things, is can you do that in a way that's, that's authentic?
And I'll give you, I'll give you one example that I, uh, didn't come to mind earlier, but is a good one, is, uh, Más by Messi. It's his new sports drink. Yeah.
They have plugged into the creator community a lot over the last, uh, several weeks, uh, including folks who are in the collective, but we aren't yet benefiting from it 'cause we haven't launched the collective.
[laughs] But they've done a really good job of, like, you know, saying, "Hey, here's the, here's the drink." It's Messi, which helps, right? Mm-hmm. 'Cause everybody loves Messi, except for, uh, Speed and Ronaldo fans.
[laughs] Uh, but you know, like, go create the type of content that you typically create. Um, and so it's a good kind of marriage of the two things.
So I think, I would say, you know, for the creators, it's, there's a reality to, you know, you need to, you need to find revenue. It's find the right ways to push and show yourself as the, as the expert, right?
And there's always gonna be a point where you know when you've probably pushed too much on a brand, but- Yeah... you know, it, it only works...
The, the results are only gonna be good if you can find the right combination of what the brand needs and what you are good at doing.
Well, I think actually to bring this back to, uh, to Speed going on CBS, it's like, to me, not that I saw so many think pieces about this, but I saw, like, some people talking about it on Twitter- Yeah...
and, like, what's... It's not surprising or weird at all because this is somebody who has the eyeballs of millions on him, so why would you not bring him in to try to do his thing?
And they let him do his thing in a very normal way. Let's do this, this race where he's racing Jamie Carragher kind of in the back halls behind the scenes- Yeah...
of CBS, and, and he, like, rips his pants, and it's so chaotic and, and all this, and it's like- He does a back flip off the- He does the-... off the desk, right? Exactly. Just let, bring him in.
Let him do his thing, and maybe, you know, a few of his, few of the members of aud- of his audience will enjoy the banter between Kate Scott and Terry Henry and Jamie Carragher and Micah Richards, and then pay the $10 a month or whatever [laughs] it is for a CBS subscription.
Yeah, right. Um- Yeah, I think that's exactly right. Yeah, I suppose that.
Well, the, the last point I'll make just to your question is, you know, for brands, I think it's, it's just the sort of the opposite side of it, which is trust creators. I think trust- Mm...
that they know what they're doing.
Understand where you need to set the parameters and, and make, be clear about kind of that key objective, whatever it is you're trying to achieve, but then allow the creator the freedom to create and connect with their audience in the way that they know how.
That's, that's the reason you do it. And obviously from our perspective, our hope is that we can kind of sit in that in-between seat and be the translator and help them come together in a way that's beneficial for both.
Period. Um, Kyle, thank you for coming on. Where should people go to- Thanks for having me. Of course. Where should people go to find your stuff? Yeah. Uh, Name and Number, nameandnumber.com.
We're Name and Number spelled out on, uh, on primary social channels. Uh, Pathway, uh, pathwayhq, uh, pathway_hq on social. Uh, and then, yeah, you can find us on, on Beehiiv, uh, with our Pathway newsletter as well.
Then I'm just @kylesheldon across most channels. So please say hello and connect. Uh, love connecting with folks in the community. Perfect, and listener, I will see you next week. Thank you.
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