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Welcome back to the Creator Spotlight Podcast.

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I'm your host, Francis Zehrer, and our guest today is Ryan Gilbert, creator of Workspaces, a bite-size bi-weekly, comes out on Saturdays and Sundays, uh, newsletter where work-from-homers show off their home workspaces, and he's been running it for about four and a half years now.

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Ryan, how's it going? Pretty good. How are you? I am doing good. Um, and I'm excited to have you on because I was just saying this before we started recording, I actually subscribed... Uh, I, I checked.

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I subscribed to Workspaces back in March 2022. The first issue I got was, um, number one hundred thirty-six. It was Gavin Nelson, product- Awesome. That was a good one... designer at GitHub. Yeah.

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Uh, and I, I can't actually remember how I found it.

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Um, I was working on a newsletter for my then job at the time, so I, I was probably looking for like, you know, other kind of like business-y but, like, culture-focused newsletters that weren't just, like, pure, you know, like business news.

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Um, and I also just liked it. My, my work from home... I'd only been doing the r- the regular work from home thing for, like, a little less than two years at that point, and I didn't have much of a home office set up.

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It's still a little dreary here. You know, in front of the camera it's a little bit better. Maybe not as camera ready as most of your guests, but, um, I don't know. It was, it was, it was cool to look at. Uh,

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anyways, you started it, the first issue, I think, was April 5th, 2020. Yep. So I'm guessing it was, like, a pandemic project. We're all working from home. Yep. Where are we working from?

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Tell me more about s- why you started it. Yeah, 100%. Uh, so April 5th, 2020, I'd always been interested in startups and wanting to work in tech in some way.

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I'm from Wisconsin, still live in Wisconsin, so I didn't really have, like, a way in. I mean, I was firing off applications every year and just like, "How can you help us?" Well, I really can't.

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[laughs] Um, so obviously that didn't do anything. I was working in supply chain right out of school. Um, never really left.

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It just kind of, you know, fell backwards into that role, went to school for marketing, um, and then as you just kinda get more and more money, you just don't leave. So- Mm-hmm...

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um, was always just kind of tinkering on really, really small side projects, and then, yeah, with the pandemic kind of making more and more people work from home, I was already tapped into tech Twitter in a way that was more of just, like, casually watching.

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Uh, and I saw more and more of these people from Facebook, Twitter, starting to work from home, posting pictures of their new work from home spaces, some were like- These, like- Yeah...

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fifteen thousand dollar setups, like- Yeah... the nicest chair Some, some were crazy- Like, you know...

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and then some were, "I'm working on my couch or my counter," and they still made it look great, and I was just thinking, "Okay, Substack is taking off now. Everyone is seeming to get into this newsletter thing again.

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I'm not technical, but how can I do something with this super quickly?" And so I set up a Substack in, you know, five minutes. It was workspaces.substack.com. Didn't even have my own domain at the time.

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Texted a friend that worked at Facebook and was just like, "Hey, this is going to sound kind of weird, but can I have a picture of your desk right now that's at home?"

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And he sent that back, and the next weekend published it, he shared it, and from there, haven't missed a weekend, and it's been, like you said, four and a half years. Yeah. That's, that's impressive.

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So okay, so it was like, it was you looking... Like, you're on the outside looking in at, like, tech Twitter or the tech world. You're like, "How do I get a job in there?"

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And this was like, you know, this, this was you kind of chipping away at, like- Yeah... I don't know, the, the- So-... fence...

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yeah, I didn't think that this would necessarily lead to a job, but I thought if nothing else, it actually, like, is proof of work in some way, and then I would be gaining some small connections along the way with the people that I'm featuring.

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And my hunch from the start was that every time I featured someone, they would share it in some way- Yeah... and I would basically be piggybacking off of their audience.

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That worked, you know, to perfection, and then from there, not only was I getting to know these guests a little bit, you know, through our email exchanges, a lot of them ended up following me.

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We continued talking in DMs and things like that. Uh, but then some of their followers and their audience was like, "Oh, what's this project? It's pretty cool." Yeah. "I should reach out to Ryan as well."

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So it worked, you know, more than I expected.

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I didn't think that this would specifically lead to jobs, which it did, but I thought it would be, like, the first step to something after, you know, years of just applying for things blindly without any real experience and just kind of like maybe they'll take a chance on the Wisconsin kid who works in supply chain and does nothing related to what we're doing.

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Yeah. No, I, I mean, I related to that a lot. Like, for, I mean, before the pandemic, I'd started, like, freelancing a little bit as my way of like...

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You know, after college I started working in kitchens because I was, like, so disenfranchised with marketing type stuff that I'd studied and, and so, I mean, this isn't about me.

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But, uh, so I, I, I really like it when people do use like a newsletter like this as a way of getting into an industry. I think it's so smart, the proof of work, et cetera.

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Um, before we go too much further though, I feel like we should explain more of exactly what it is. So like I said, Workspaces goes out every Saturday and Sunday, and then each issue, they're really easy to consume.

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Each issue is like, features one person. It's got, like, their name in the title. It's their nice home workspace. There's like a short one paragraph bio, a few photos they took, you know, nicely...

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u- usually very nicely staged that every... not a messy desk. Um, a list of the items in their workspaces from furniture to software, sometimes like a silly thing like, oh, the breed of the dog that's- Yeah...

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in the picture. Uh, and then sometimes, but not always, a few interview questions. Um, what's...

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Do, does everyone get like the same like, "Hey, can you send me like three pictures, a list of this, and like here are some interview questions?" Or how do you... What's like the prompt you're giving to people? Yeah.

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So it's stayed fairly consistent from the start till now, which is both good and bad. I mean, I think there's things that should be changing along the way, but I really haven't.

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And yeah, it's basically been like, "Hey, can you include a picture or pictures?"

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Now it's really pictures at this point, just, you know, it just happened that way, and a list of all the items, and then software kind of came a little bit later because people were asking for that.

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And then the interview questions also kind of piggybacked off that.

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People just wanted to know a little bit more about why were they creating the space that way or how do they think about remote work in general, things like that. Mm-hmm.

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So it's been pretty simpleBut the, the kind of format is super easy for both myself and the guest to, to do it.

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So, um, there are times where, you know, someone will agree to do it and takes two or three months to, to submit [chuckles] their stuff, but that's really because they're just, like, getting their space ready or, you know- Yeah...

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they're waiting on, like, a new monitor. It's, they wanna be ready for the big stage. Yeah. Exactly. Yeah, and so like you said, like the pictures are all great. I have no idea how everyone does it.

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I've tried to take pictures of my own space. Um, you know, I'm not featured myself actually yet, so- Yeah... fun fact. And I don't know how they do it.

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I've had people reach out thinking that I'm the one that comes to everyone's house and, like, takes these pictures, and that's not how this goes either. I think I just got lucky. You wouldn't have that much money. Yeah.

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[laughs] Early on, I just got lucky that the first few took it serious, and everyone- Mm-hmm... kind of learned from them and just tried to follow suit. And so- They kinda made a style. Exactly. Mm-hmm.

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And it sort of, like, worked out that way of like, "Hey, we're taking a close-up of, you know, our microphone, our keyboard," and people just followed, and it worked out well.

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And yeah, I mean, there are some that are just... Most are actually probably taken from an iPhone at this point, but they still- Yeah... like our, you know, good lighting and things like that.

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There are a few that are more raw, which actually the readers do like that as well. I get feedback on that. Yeah. Like, yeah. You need to see, like, behind the- Yeah... the veneer sometimes. Yeah, exactly.

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So yeah, but it's been pretty consistent. I want... The whole point from the beginning was I wanted the newsletter to be consumed in just a couple minutes, basically over a cup of coffee.

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That's why I use the coffee emoji a lot throughout the newsletter. Mm. It's just basically like, hey, you're sitting down on a Saturday morning, and you can just do this, like, in passing.

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I don't want you to, like, open a newsletter and think, "Is this going to be a quick five-minute read, or is this one of those 20-minute long reads that you sometimes get in your inbox?"

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And you're like, "Okay, I need to mark this as un- as unread-" Yeah... "and circle back later." Like Curtis Media. I never wanted that to be... Yeah.

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[laughs] At least you know, like, what you're getting into because it's an interview series. Yeah. But there are some newsletters that you follow, and it's like this might be five minutes or this might be 20.

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You don't really know, um, and I never wanted that to be the case with this. And then that was part of the reason that I chose Saturdays originally- Mm-hmm...

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for the send, was I didn't wanna be competing with some of those longer form business newsletters- Yeah, smart...

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because I wanted to just own the inbox, and I know that a lot of businesses won't send emails on Saturdays or Sundays, and I just pretty much owned that real estate.

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And I think that that is a big part of why it sort of worked early on and why the, the open rate was pretty high from, from day one. Which makes sense 'cause it's... Yours is like, I don't know, it's like a, if, like...

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Like if you open up, like, the Styles section of The New York Times or whatever- Yeah... and it's like, you know, they've got the, this this couple bought this home, whatever.

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It's, it's so, like, easy to consume and, like, voyeuristic kind of. Um- Yeah... okay, so you were doing only one issue per week until I think issue 70.

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Uh, you w- you just literally like every week, once a week, and then issue 69, you published that, and then the next day you publish issue 70. So then it's two per week- Yeah...

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Saturday and Sunday, and I think you've been doing that ever since.

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So was that just because, like, you at that point had too many people who wanted to publish it, and you're like, "I gotta just start putting these out," or why? Yeah. Uh, it was pretty much that.

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So early on, I was doing a ton of cold outreach all through Twitter DMs. I mean, Twitter DMs and Gmail is pretty much what built Workspaces to what it is. Mm-hmm.

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So I was just DM-ing tons and tons of people and just slowly kind of reaching out to people with bigger audiences over time.

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But it flipped around that edition where more and more people were reaching out to me actually asking like, "Hey, how can I be included?"

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And they were already, like, submitting their question with, "And here's why you should include me," with all of the information already there.

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[laughs] So, like, I couldn't really say no, and I was, like, at a point where if I sit on all these workspaces that I have, it's going to take me two years to publish all of these. And then they'll be out of date.

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Yeah, exactly. And so I do still have some, which I feel terrible about. There's some in my inbox from 2021, 2022. My science of publishing these- Bloody... is not great.

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I just search Workspaces Newsletter, go to unread, and just pick one that I'm, that I'm feeling that day. Uh, so- Oh...

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sorry to anyone who's been sitting out there for a while, but that's pretty much what happened around that time is the, the inbound submissions became too much.

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So I wanted to speed that up a little bit and make people not sit out there too long. There was one- Well, how long, sorry, how long do you spend on each issue too?

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'Cause it sounds like it, like, to make an extra issue probably is, like, an hour of your time or something, right? I w- I would say an hour.

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There are ways that, uh, I can speed it up for sure, and then there's definitely some that take longer. So for example, if someone...

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I don't wanna call these people out, but if you're taking pictures on an Android and sending them in, the formatting is weird. Oh. So I have to do a lot more with, like, reformatting them and things like that.

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So that takes a little bit longer. And then I do like to actually publish these still on Saturday, Sunday mornings. Like, I'm actually crafting them- Oh, like manually... before I send them, yeah.

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Which also not the smartest, uh, because, like, wedding, our wedding day, in that morning I was still sending a newsletter. [laughs] Um, so [laughs] So you committed to the bit. Yeah, exactly. Um, so yeah. But

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that's pretty much how I do it. And yeah, it's about an hour. Mm-hmm. If they submit everything... Some people do, like, their own bio, and some don't submit a bio. Mm-hmm. And it's just, "Hey, I trust your voice.

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Figure it out yourself," which I like both. But the ones that submit, like, a full bio for themselves, some of them also link to products themselves, that can take 15 minutes. Yeah.

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But that's kind of few and far between now, and the people that- Well, wait. S- speaking of the links, so- Yeah...

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uh, one year in, for the anniversary episode, you, like, include this poll, "Have you ever purchased anything for your own workspace after seeing it featured in someone else's space?"

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Um, and then at that point, you weren't doing affiliate links, which, you know, like, y- I, I'm pretty sure you were starting to think about it because then, uh, issue number 86, so like, I don't know, 30 issues after that- Yeah...

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uh, y- I found the first issue with Amazon affiliate links. Was that like... Why did it take you... You obviously were thinking about it, so why did it take you that long to do it? Yeah.

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I weirdly felt dirty about making money from the newsletter early on. I kind of thought that I had this trust with the readers of they were just trying to tap into other people's- Mm...

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um, workspaces, and I had this weird kind of feeling of this isn't my content. I'm just the medium that's sharing it for these other people, and it's their space. Yeah.

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So if there's money made off this newsletter, I think it should be going to the people who gave me their spaceIn the first place was where I was coming at it from.

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And so when I started asking those questions about affiliate links and sponsorships, I actually talked to some of the bigger guests that were included to that point of just like, "Hey, I feel kind of weird about this.

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What do you think?" And the consensus was just, "This is your newsletter, like go for it. We're giving you the content." If you're paying this sort of thing. "It's helping us with like..." Yeah.

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Yeah, like building our audience and just getting our workspace and like our creativity out there, and they didn't have any problems with it.

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But yeah, I had this weird kind of pull in the other direction of I just felt dirty about it at first, and I didn't wanna make sponsorship money, affiliate money, I just wanted to continue sharing spaces and just knowing that it was, you know,

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building connections with me more than anything. Not even like my own audience, but I was- Yeah...

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every edition, if I could just get closer to knowing the person I was featuring, that was great because I was featuring them for a reason. I looked up to them in some way.

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Well, okay, so this leads nicely to the next thing which like issue number sixty, May 23rd, 2021, you've been doing it just over a year, uh, you shared some news that you were joining this company then called Journal, now called Heyday, uh- Yeah...

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to run content for them part-time, and Workspaces seems to have gotten you this job. I think you met this guy, uh, who was the CEO of the c- or is the CEO of the company 'cause he reached out to you.

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He wanted to like do a thread about it, about Workspaces on Twitter, um, and then they were like they needed somebody to run their blog. He thought of you. He loved what you, you were doing.

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Um, and I, I, I read this tweet that he posted about it, uh, and at the time you'd switched jobs from your j- initial job you had. You were working for M- Milwaukee, uh, the tool company. I'm a- Yeah...

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I have a Milwaukee drill myself. [chuckles] Um, and I thought this was really cool. This is, I think, the first of two, maybe three jobs at-- maybe more that the newsletter got you. So we'll get into those- Yeah...

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later. But, um, yeah, that seems to me like, you know, sixty issues in, you had a call, and this was before you started doing the affiliate links too. Uh- Yeah.

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But yeah, tell me more about like, about that, and like I'm sure you were so excited. Yeah. So, um, working with Sam, Journal, Heyday was great. Mm-hmm.

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And I'm gonna go on a quick little side tangent before I talk more about- Please... more about him.

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'Cause yeah, you mentioned that I was at Milwaukee, uh, Milwaukee Tool, which is another like supply chain company in, in Wisconsin. Before that, I was actually at SC Johnson, which does like Ziploc bags and all that.

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That's the company I was at for six or seven years. Wow. [lip smacks] Um, and then yeah, joined Milwaukee, uh, which was more of like a remote work setting.

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SC Johnson wanted us all to go back to the office, and honestly, we should maybe even cut this with what I'm about to say, but we don't need to. Um- What? We can...

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joined Milwaukee remote work environment and, um, went to the office one time in six months, and it was more of like I was learning the role, but it was like on purpose. Mm.

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And in six months, I felt like I did almost nothing, but it was like by design on their end. And so [chuckles] I was just like so- Which is like, I mean, for a huge... Like Milwaukee is a huge company- They're massive...

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that's been around forever. Yeah. That's like how that works. Yeah. And so for me, though, I felt like really, really weird and bored about it. Anxious. So,

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uh, yeah, and Workspaces was growing a lot at that point, and, uh, I just told my fiancé at the time, I was like, "Okay, I'm really enjoying this Workspaces thing.

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It's not like making money, but like I think it could lead to that." Mm-hmm. "And this Milwaukee Tool thing is like, yes, it's, you know, it's paying, and I'm doing nothing," which most people would love.

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Job security forever- But for me that's like-... get a pension eventually, etc. Yeah.

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And some people would love to just sit at home and like get paid to do nothing, but f- it just like it was so boring because I was doing like one PowerPoint a day about nothing.

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Uh, and so she just let me quit on a whim, honestly- Yeah... which was great, and I had nothing else lined up. [lip smacks] And then that's where Sam came into the picture, actually weirdly around that same time.

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And yeah, Sam was and is the CEO of Heyday, then Journal, and was just a longtime reader of Workspaces, I guess, and reached out and, uh, I mean, now we're good friends.

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Uh, and I did some contract work for them for over a year doing their newsletter, some blogs, some community stuff, and he also introduced me to some great people along the way too, and just was basically like a fan from, from day one and just wanted to- That's awesome...

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do anything that he could to make Workspaces kind of grow and be what it could be. He saw a lot of potential with it. He saw more potential in it than I did, honestly, early on.

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And yeah, I owe a lot to him, honestly, because he kind of was the push to be like, "This could be bigger than you think it is." Mm-hmm. Uh, "And you should definitely do something with it."

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And yeah, he-- So we worked together for, for a year. I think we'll-- I would like to say we'll, we'll do something together in the future. That'd be great. He was awesome.

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And yeah, then that also led to Product Hunt, where I was an employee as well, and I think that was partly Workspaces, partly working with Sam. Okay, cool.

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Yeah, I was wondering if that, if Product Hunt came out of that too. Um, so the next kind of the biggest chapter, and I'm not sure how much you can get into details here. Maybe there's some NDA stuff, et cetera.

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But the newsletter, um, was acquired in August 2022 after one hundred and seventy-eight issues, um, and then de-acquired.

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You'd gotten laid off by the company that acquired it, who had also hired you, uh, so you purchased it back in May 2024, so, uh, almost two years after, uh, after issue four twenty was your last issue.

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And I-- It's, it's kinda like, feel like it's kinda like, you know, Barstool Sports, how Portnoy sold it for millions and then bought it back for one dollar, except I don't think you made millions on it.

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Um, but yeah, I wanna, I wanna hear the story. I wanna hear about like, you know, acquisition, lead-up to the acquisition, and then the, the, [chuckles] the other end of that, the de-acquisition- Yeah...

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the reacquisition. Yeah. No, it definitely didn't make millions. I even tweeted it. It was like someone asked. It was n- new car money, not new house money- Yeah... is what I can say about that.

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And yeah, I even had a tweet about the Dave Portnoy thing, just photoshopped my face over it when he did the same thing. Yeah, I can talk about it, you know, a little bit.

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Um, so Loops acquired, you know, the newsletter back... Y- you have the date. I don't even remember anymore. Yeah. But yeah, um, and they sponsored an edition- It's August 8th, 2022, to be specific.

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[chuckles] August 8th? Okay. So, so basically two years into the newsletter- Yeah... and, you know, um, halfway through the, the Workspaces journey, I guess. So it was starting to make money at that point.

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I was not only doing affiliate links, which honestly don't make that much in the grand scheme of things. Mm-hmm.

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I could, you know, optimize that better, which I have some deals now with actual desk companies and things like that. Not just like an Amazon storefront. Yeah, exactly. Amazon doesn't pay that well.

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Um-But yeah, so I was doing sponsorships at that time, and Loops was one of them that, that sponsored it, and they liked the return.

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They were still waitlist only at that time, but it was pretty much like, "Hey, uh, respond with hey or something that you came from, from Workspaces and we'll let you off the waitlist."

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And they liked the results, so two days later, that was a Saturday, on Monday, uh, their CEO reached out and was like, "Hey, we have a crazy idea. Can we hop on another call?"

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And I think at that point they wanted to either buy a bunch more sponsorships or, uh, look into at that time, I guess, acquiring the newsletter, which I wasn't really interested in selling,

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uh, but I also didn't wanna do another long-term ad deal.

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I did that previously where it was two months with one company, and at that point the newsletter was just growing so fast that- You're like undervaluing yourself...

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halfway through I was sort of frustrated with the deal because like, yeah, I was getting offers inbound from other, other potential sponsors that I had to turn down because it was pretty much like, "Well, you can only sponsor on this day in two weeks and here's this, you know, amount of money that's three times what- The money will we have this campaign we need to do now.

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Yeah. And I couldn't say yes to it, so I tried to avoid long-term deals after that. And then, yeah, so I was at Product Hunt for almost a year at that point.

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So then it turned in f- to, "Hey, what if we just acquire this and, you know, you come on board as well?" And went back and forth on that. I loved my time at Product Hunt. Yeah. Didn't wanna leave.

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My last week was actually during a company offsite, so it made it even like harder to wanna leave. Everyone there was awesome.

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But what Loops offered was, you know, essentially the role that I would've wanted after four years at Product Hunt. Yeah. It would've been like- Like your dream... what I was trying to get to.

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And when I, when I left Milwaukee and the supply chain world, didn't have a job lined up, went to Product Hunt, took a pay cut to do all that just to get into tech- Mm-hmm...

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and knew that that would be like kind of my bridge into something. And so the Loops offer essentially let me speed run that very, very quickly for better or worse, uh- Yeah... if you look back at it honestly.

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It has, you know, there's pros and cons to doing it that way. And so yeah, that's ultimately what ended up happening.

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And then the newsletter was with Loops for, for two years, like you said, and we pretty much pulled all sponsorships and just took sort of the NPR approach of this news- newsletter's being brought to you for free by Loops and kind of switched the messaging here and there but not too often.

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And I think it worked at first and then towards the end it sort of ran its course there. Yeah. Yeah, that makes sense. Um, so yeah, I imagine you can't talk too much about the reacquisition, but I...

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One thing that's interesting to me about this is like,

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like with a newsletter or an Instagram account or a YouTube account, whatever, like to, like being a like creator in the creator economy, having this thing, um, seems like such a, like a valuable safety net, like in, in the case of a layoff or whatever.

148
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Um, you know, it's such a valuable asset to have to help you weather something like this. So it's complicated in this case, but do you think like, like having the newsletter...

149
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It sounds like it was so important to you to get it back, like regardless of what happened. Like I'm sure- Yeah... you were like instantly applying to, to jobs, et cetera. But like, I don't know, why...

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Tell me about it being so important to have- Yeah... the newsletter again. No, for sure. And I mean, during like the layoff call, that was kinda like my first thought was like, like, "Okay, I sold this asset.

151
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I know I like, I, you know, I, that's my own deal. That's- Yeah... kind of what, you know, I signed up for."

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And so at the very end, yeah, what they basically said, "You get to purchase this back essentially if you want to for $1." So, you know, I do have to give them credit there that like- Yeah...

153
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I do really, really appreciate that, and I, you know, gave them the sentiment on the call as well. Like you said, it, it was worth more than,

154
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you know, a dollar amount to me, and I think they recognized that as well and realized that even though I was publishing it- Well, it's obviously emotional. Yeah.

155
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Even though I was publishing it, you know, under the Loops kind of banner that entire time, it was still essentially my project, I guess, in a weird way because, you know, my name was still attached to it.

156
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It was still like growing my audience and, you know, my brand. And I think they recognized that, and I do really, really appreciate that actually. Mm. Because, I mean, they didn't have to give it back to me in any way.

157
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And yeah, it's worth more than a dollar amount to me. It led to multiple jobs.

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It's led to all these connections and, you know, it's essentially, it's like a, like a weird little creation that I started from zero to whatever you'd consider it now. One, I guess. Yeah. Maybe two.

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I don't know at this point. [chuckles] Um, and- It's like the horse you rode in on into the tech world as you were trying to- Yeah, exactly.

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And so if I would've not only been laid off, but then I also didn't get like, you know, a way to wrap it up how I want to, that would've stung a little bit more.

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There are things that I would like to do to like, you know, put the final bow on it for my chapter with it at least, and that would've been unfortunate to not be able to do that my way.

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I mean, weirdly though, like the first acquisition of it, it never truly felt like a win, honestly. Mm. Like I didn't get to check it off as a win in, in my mind.

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I still haven't spent a single dollar from that acquisition. We were going to buy a house, and then the market went crazy, so we've just been sitting on it. Yeah. So like, you know, it's just like

164
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it never felt like a win. And then also I was still publishing it every single week as if it was my own, so nothing changed with it- Yeah... at all.

165
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So it was kind of a weird dynamic with, you know, it was acquired, but I'm still the one behind it, but it's for like a job now, and I mean, that led to- If you, if you were to sell it again, let's say like, I don't know if you want to or if you would, if you would now, if you would in a year, whatever.

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If you were to sell it again, like what would you do differently? Would you be like, "All right, like I'm, I'm done with this. Like my time with this is over. It's all yours"?

167
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What would you do, what would you do differently if you were to sell the newsletter again? Yeah.

168
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I've talked to a few other, um, newsletter creators about this actually who have received offers and just thinking through it, and I think I've gotten more clarity on what I would do because of that.

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I definitely am not 100% opposed to selling it again. I mean, I've received offers as well after reacquiring it. I think I'm going to sit on it for at least a while. Yeah.

170
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There is like a physical end that I would like to, to do with it, at least for my part. Um, you can, you know, think about whatever you'd want with that.

171
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But I definitely think that there should be some sort of physical long-standing ending for my at least chapter with it.And then I think if I were to ever sell it again, I would need to be wiping my hands clean of it a hundred percent.

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Yeah. I don't think I can be attached to it anymore in a way that I'm still publishing it weekly as- Especially after already going through this like process. Exactly.

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And so like the offers that I've received, you know, recently it's, you know, the, the, the numbers are from a business sense. What does it make? How many subscribers do you have?

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The number I have is this is enough for me to walk away from it essentially. Yeah. And those numbers are, are pretty different at this point. You... There's like... But you...

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Uh, there's probably like work you know where it's like, "Oh, if I keep doing this this long, and do this thing, and this thing- Yeah... and that step, then maybe we can make those numbers like come together." Exactly.

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Um, yeah, I have some big, big plans for it still coming up, um, which should be fun. So I think- Yeah... that'll help as well.

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And yeah, like I said, I think about it more from the personal kind of branding and all that side of things versus the actual dollar amount. So it's going to be hard to find a number that makes sense- Yeah...

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this time around. It, it just will be. Again, the emotion tied up. Yeah, exactly. Um, well, so it's been though... It's been three...

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It's been a little over three months since you got the newsletter back, um, and like as soon... The, the week...

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The, the issue after you got it back, you were like, "Okay, like I'm gonna be doing sponsorships again, I'm gonna be doing giveaways," et cetera. How do you feel about it three months on from that?

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Like, have you surpassed maybe even like sponsorship revenue that it was before? What's the status three months in? No. [laughs] It's hard. It's so much harder than it was two years ago. Yeah.

182
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Um- Newsletter industry is different than it was then. It is, yeah, thanks to Beehiiv, I think. No, I'm just kidding. [laughs] I think, um... Yeah. So before the acquisition, I was charging, you know,

183
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250 per ad slot twice a week, so I was making 2,000 a month, and it was booked out like three months in advance. Wow. So fairly consistent, you know, great revenue for a side project specifically. Yeah.

184
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And now the newsletter itself has doubled in size. Open rate, click rate are still consistent. There is now a Twitter account that's attached to it, there wasn't before, that has- 44,000 followers... 45,000 followers.

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Yeah. Website that receives, you know, 100,000 page views a month, and I cannot sell sponsorships. It is so hard. Um,

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and yeah, it's just basically like I've not even like increased the rates to, you know, keep up with doubling the newsletter, and it's still just so much harder. I think the industry kind of changed a little bit.

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Back when I was doing sponsorships, you know, two or three years ago, uh, everyone had just VC money just, you know- Yeah... flowing out of their ears. Money. That changed a little bit.

188
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And now just newsletters in general are a little bit saturated from a sponsorship standpoint. You're not getting, you know, those crazy rates that you were.

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And, um, you know, if you're on a platform like Beehiiv, you obviously get to tap into built-in networks like that. Mm-hmm. Yeah, so...

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And I still like love doing the project itself, so I don't wanna turn it into like a job at this point. Mm-hmm. So it's turned into, if I get a sponsor, great. If I don't, it's also fine.

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So every other week or so I'll just tweet that I need a sponsor. That typically does lead to some sort of sponsor. I've done deals where it's two for one- Mm...

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things like that, where I'm just like, "Hey, let's change copy," and a lot of that comes with I'm looking for more data, so just help me with like how many clicks you're getting, what's the conversion rate, things like that, just to like help me out a little bit, and everyone's been on board with that.

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So I'm going to be, you know, still kind of like hands-off with the sponsorship approach. Yeah. If it works, it does. If it doesn't... Um, but then also doing more giveaways.

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Giveaways always worked, and I think there's ways to make revenue from the newsletter on those. I've never done that to this point. It's just been- How do you... What are your giveaways like?

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Like, what, what are you giving away? What's the... How do you run it? Yeah. Companies are giving away desks that are like $1,500 and it's, you know, it leads to a giant boost in subscriber growth as well.

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It's like the biggest subscriber kind of growth lever right now, and they're giving it away for free. I don't even have to ship it. I never see the desk, honestly. I just select the winner, and they send it.

197
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But that's pretty much where it's always ended. It's been- Mm... retweet and subscribe to win, and we've just done nothing with it.

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And I think there's a world where, you know, 500, 600 people just signed up to get this free desk. There's a portion of them that would like a discount on that desk going forward. Mm-hmm.

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We never kind of work out the like final aspects of what that could be, and I think there's something there. Yeah. No, that's smart. Um, let's talk about the growth a bit. So I have a few numbers I'll lay down.

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Um, at the 100th is- issue, that's when you launched on Product Hunt, and you said in that issue that you had 2,600 subscribers. So that took you a year and a half, um, uh, which to be precise, 577 days.

201
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I didn't calculate that. I just put that into Google. Um, and your homepage now says you're at 13,500... 13,500. I think maybe it's like 13,700. Uh, sub- Yeah... said something in a recent issue.

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Um, so that's another 10,900 or so subscribers in the past 1,000 some days, so which is just to say the growth line, you know, has taken a, a favorable slope. It took you...

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You got four times as many subscribers in the last 1,000 days as you did in the last 500 days. So like not hugely exponential, but, you know- Mm-hmm... it, it went up.

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Um, tell me like the collage, the tapestry of how you've grown to 13,700 or- Yeah... whatever it is. So early on, the, the strategy was always I can piggyback off of other people's audiences.

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Like I said, like that worked really, really well. So the first big spike that I ever got was an addition with Joey Banks,

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who is a designer and has been featured twice now and has just been super helpful and supportive of the project. Did he move? Featured twice. He, uh, redid the workspace.

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Now I think he's moved, so he might be featured a third time. [laughs] There we go. Sorry. Anyways. But he...

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Yeah, when he first shared it, he had a really big audience and helped a ton, and he shared it multiple times since then. So that was a big one. Then I was also featured, like I said, in Product Hunt the first time.

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That led to a bunch. And then the second launch, we had a new website built for it on Webflow, and right after that, Webflow featured it in their quarterly newsletter- Mm... which led to another spike of 1,000-ish.

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I don't remember the exact numbers, but somewhere in there. And then from there, yeah, it's all been organic word of mouth, pretty consistently through- The people resharing it on Twitter. Exactly.

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That's like pretty much it. I mean-I've done some LinkedIn, some Instagram, but it's, it's Twitter is- Mm-hmm... where it comes from. And then I've done giveaways which help spike it here and there.

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And then about a month ago I was featured in The Verge, which was a big thing for it as well. That led to 800 or 900 new subscribers overnight, and other than that it's been pretty consistent I would say growth-wise.

213
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Actually it's, over the last year other than The Verge issue, has been kind of flat if I'm being honest. Yeah.

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And I think part of that is just because I have only grown through Twitter, haven't done any paid acquisition or anything like that. And that Twitter's h- harder and harder now.

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Twitter is harder and harder, and then also, you know, there's 40,000, 45,000 followers of the account. They can get all the content there without subscribing. They know that. It's fine.

216
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And also just like if you're, you know, pounding the same thing into Twitter day after day, they would've already subscribed if they wanted to. Yeah. Well, okay, I wanna talk about the Twitter account.

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So first let's talk about the Workspaces one. You said, it... you didn't start it from the beginning. Now when I checked yesterday it was 44,500.

218
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Um, some posts do really well, others fall flat, but I mean the difference is quite clear. The image-based posts with no links do sometimes hundreds if not up to like 1,000 likes.

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Uh, the posts with a link get three likes, um, which, you know, that's- Yeah... Twitter doesn't want you to leave the platform. Um, when did... Wait, yeah, when did you start it? And I don't know, like not that...

220
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Does, doesn't sound like it was that complex growing that Twitter account, but was it just like- Yeah... pretty overnight quick growth or? Uh, yeah it was.

221
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Honestly I didn't start a personal or like a brand account for it- Mm...

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at first because I wanted to grow my personal one, which I think- Well, which I, I wanna know about that too actually, like and the relationship- Yeah... between the two. Yeah.

223
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So early on I wanted it to be personal because I wanted to build my own up a little bit. Then it got to the point where it was just getting...

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The newsletter itself was getting too big, and I thought that I was limiting the growth by it being attached- Mm...

225
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to my personal, where I thought more people would share it if it was attached to this is just a desk account versus this is Ryan Gilbert who does X, Y, Z- Who is he... and this is just one little thing he's doing.

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Mm-hmm. Yeah.

227
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And then like you see accounts like that and you're like is this even like content that he's created in any way or is he just like ripping it from somewhere else and reposting it, which you see people do all the time now.

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So I got like that feeling where I should spin it off, and that was probably a year and a half, two years in. Almost around the Loops acquisition time- Mm... was roughly when that started. And early on it was tough.

229
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I mean you're starting with zero, zero followers. Someone will share it, you'll get 20 likes, 30 likes. And yeah, now it's just its own beast. It's bigger than the newsletter. It gets millions of impressions a month.

230
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Um, and yeah now early on the, the Twitter growth would lead to subscriber growth like crazy. Mm-hmm.

231
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And that's sort of saturated a little bit, but yeah, like you said if you just do pictures it, you know, some of those tweets can do 1,000 likes and some of them get- Yeah... like 400,000 views, 500,000 views.

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And I've just like sort of played the hits with that. Almost every Monday you'll see like happy Monday with a grid of four pictures or you'll see left or right with just two, two desks. And,

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um, I just try to keep resurfacing the old good content over and over again, which- Mm...

234
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you'll sometimes see the same desk posted probably five times in a month and it's because like I said same way I publish it which is just like on vibes that day how am I feeling, the Twitter's the same way.

235
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There's been I don't even know how many thousand tweets but I haven't scheduled a single one of them. I just open my phone or open [chuckles] the desktop app and it's just whatever I'm feeling at that time.

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And so you'll notice a lot of the tweets are like consistently in the morning or like- Mm... around noon and it's like that's when I have time to do a tweet about Workspaces. So that's just how it is.

237
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And if, if I'm in like a pinch I'll just open workspaces.xyz, scroll- And just scroll. [laughs]... and, and I'll just probably grab the same desk I did last week. [laughs] What about, what about the Instagram?

238
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'Cause the Instagram has, you know, only 2.2 thousand followers. Um, and my guess here is it's just like, you know, it's the network effect of Twitter. Twitter is like a work app th- more than- Yeah...

239
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Instagram is and, you know, Workspaces is a work newsletter. Yep. I think a lot of it is almost everyone I've featured has a Twitter account for sure. It's super easy for them to share it on Twitter- Mm...

240
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versus Instagram after the fact. And things can just go more viral I think on Twitter if you're not- Yeah... even follow... That new for you tab helps a lot. You can just end up in there. True.

241
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And Instagram I just also personally don't use it that much, so I probably am not the best at framing the features in a way that like is engaging. I mean it's- Yeah...

242
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you would think it'd be super- I mean for, for Instagram to do good now you like you have to be doing reels, right? Yeah, exactly.

243
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And so I've thought about doing things like that, but it's another layer of friction to ask these guests to like, "Hey, can you also record a video?" Mm. I know I just had you take 10 pictures that all look great.

244
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Put it to, to some chill hip hop beats to study to. Yeah, exactly. And so I think that's a big part of it.

245
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And I mean like, like I said like I don't use Instagram that much so, uh, I don't really like keep up with the trends on what's working, what's not. Do you use hashtags? Do you not? Like I don't- Yeah...

246
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I don't really know. My, my hunch early on was that Instagram would just take off because it's so visual, and I don't think I've put the effort in or even want to to make that work. Um- Yeah.

247
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Well Twitter's, Twitter now is I mean case in point you're how good you're doing on Twitter with these, Twitter's like a visual medium now too or- Yeah... maybe always has been. I don't know. But...

248
00:35:31.124 --> 00:35:39.104
Nah, it hasn't always but Twitter is definitely like- More so than, than before. Yeah. Yeah. Exactly. Um, we've touched on the s- subscriber count there. Can...

249
00:35:39.144 --> 00:35:46.064
Are you comfortable sharing like the, the full stats as in like the, uh, subscriber count, open rate, and click rate? It's okay if you're not. Yeah.

250
00:35:46.124 --> 00:35:55.304
So I pretty much update the website like every 500 or 1,000 subscribers. Mm. So it says 13 five right now. It's really like 13,800-ish.

251
00:35:55.954 --> 00:36:06.214
The open rate is, you know, typically bouncing between 52 and 55%, and the click rate is typically 6 or 7%. That's pretty high. The click rate is pretty high.

252
00:36:06.284 --> 00:36:14.164
Is that like all to the product or is it like to like the full interview, et cetera? Yeah. So it's a mix of both. Um, I do try to link to as many products as possible.

253
00:36:14.344 --> 00:36:25.568
So if there's interesting products definitely those.And then yes, people, I'll try to usually hint at one or two Q&A questions, and then there's usually more. Yeah. And so people do click the f- like See Full Interview.

254
00:36:26.388 --> 00:36:31.828
And then also there's things like, you know, if they wanna see their Twitter account or their portfolio- Mm-hmm... of who they're looking at.

255
00:36:31.858 --> 00:36:39.168
And I think there's a mix of people who are reading the newsletter for, like you said, like, you know, kind of peeking into another person's, like space.

256
00:36:39.208 --> 00:36:45.688
Like, do they just want the pictures, or are they actually looking to upgrade their own space and like they're looking for actual inspiration that way? Yeah.

257
00:36:45.708 --> 00:36:54.018
So I think it's a mix of people that are like, "Oh, I would like to be an engineer at Snap one day." Yeah. "Oh, this person works there." How do they live? "Let me see where they are in their life." Yeah.

258
00:36:54.018 --> 00:37:03.368
How do they Exactly. [laughs] And then there's people that are like, "I currently have a one monitor setup, but I would like two. How should I like make that happen?" Mm-hmm. So I think it's a mix of that.

259
00:37:03.828 --> 00:37:15.068
So the, the clicks are fairly, you know, spread out for product links, seeing the whole tour, and then also just seeing who the person is in their bio. Yeah. Uh, do you have a favorite issue that...

260
00:37:15.088 --> 00:37:25.328
Or like one that like, I don't know, comes to mind as like so quintessentially Workspaces as a workspace? Yeah. I don't think this is easy to [laughs] to replicate for anyone else.

261
00:37:25.388 --> 00:37:35.548
It is on the, the homepage, like featured three right now, but it's Matthew, uh, and Sena. I thought that's what you were gonna say. [laughs] Yeah. It is... It's like a full-blown studio with so much natural light.

262
00:37:35.588 --> 00:37:45.838
Like I just love the windows and the light and the plants everywhere. It looks like AI generated almost. It, yeah, it, it doesn't look like a, a real workspace, honestly, and, um, uh, but it, it's crazy.

263
00:37:45.948 --> 00:37:51.898
If I could just, you know, have any workspace, it would be that. Yeah. He's got all these plants. It's all like whites and like the- Mm-hmm...

264
00:37:51.898 --> 00:37:59.468
the natural light, natural wood, and just like- There's like lounge seating area where- Yeah... if you don't wanna get the desk, you can... Yeah, it's, it's crazy. Keyboards on like a, like a, a, you know, a- Yeah...

265
00:37:59.508 --> 00:38:08.268
a tool board, whatever. Um- Yeah... is... Do you have like a dream guest? Like somebody maybe that you're like, "I really wanna see their workspace," or that you've tried to get or, but I don't know.

266
00:38:08.368 --> 00:38:18.128
Do you have a dream guest? Um- I feel like w- maybe not. Like I don't know if this format lends itself to that. I, I mean, I used to, for sure, and I kind of like moved away from that a little bit.

267
00:38:18.188 --> 00:38:26.448
Like I used to really want, I still do, uh, Alexis Ohanian from- Yeah... you know, Reddit fame. Reddit, sure. He's, you know, said yes a few times, and it just gets so hard.

268
00:38:26.468 --> 00:38:37.978
Like I've realized that people like that, that I would love to have, you know, I would love to have like a Kevin Rose. Mm-hmm. It's just they have so much other things going on that chasing them is just almost- Yeah...

269
00:38:37.978 --> 00:38:47.128
I don't think worth it really. And while people would love to see their workspace, like I, I featured DHH from Basecamp. Mm-hmm. It got a ton of shares, ton of page views. It's great.

270
00:38:47.708 --> 00:38:56.028
Um, but they're also less likely to share it on their end after the fact. Yeah. And they're also less likely to truly care about the project.

271
00:38:56.068 --> 00:39:04.348
So I've found that like actually featuring people that I personally could know or look up to in some way has just like paid off more because I actually get to know them.

272
00:39:04.388 --> 00:39:10.448
You know, we end up like talking more after, and it's just, it's just more fun, uh- I-... honestly... I feel you. Well, that's an...

273
00:39:10.528 --> 00:39:19.688
I was talking to the, talking to the last person I interviewed kind of about this too, how like with Creator Spotlight, like, well, one, I, I'm more interested in speaking to people like you than like somebody with like 200,000 subscribers.

274
00:39:19.718 --> 00:39:23.128
Yeah. Like I'm more interested in like the middle ground 'cause that's where most stuff happens and- Yeah...

275
00:39:23.148 --> 00:39:28.528
I don't know, the little niches are, are more interesting to me than like writing about the same big newsletter that everyone else has written about.

276
00:39:28.808 --> 00:39:38.478
But also, uh, more, more, more relevant, um, is that most people I talk to, the ki- the kind of information we get into, they might not wanna share with their audience. Yeah.

277
00:39:38.488 --> 00:39:45.368
So maybe I want the network effect, but it's like they don't want their audience to know about- No, exactly. That- Yeah... that's happened.

278
00:39:45.408 --> 00:39:51.028
I mean, there was a bigger name person who was in, submitted pictures and everything, and then came back a week later saying, "Actually, just kidding.

279
00:39:51.628 --> 00:40:00.108
Um, I'm now realizing that I'm basically saying, 'Hey, in this room of my house, I have this many dollars worth of things right here for you.'" Yeah. "And I don't feel comfortable with that anymore."

280
00:40:00.168 --> 00:40:06.877
And I was like, "I totally like understand. I mean, you're a bigger kind of, you know, personality or target or whatever you might wanna call it." Yeah.

281
00:40:06.898 --> 00:40:13.097
"And you're basically saying, 'Hey, there's $15,000 worth of stuff right, [laughs] right inside this room.'" Yeah. Here's, here's the view out my window. You could probably- Yeah, exactly...

282
00:40:13.097 --> 00:40:19.528
a few of the things that triangulate it, like. Yeah. There are, there are people that like have accidentally posted pictures where you can see out the window like a license plate.

283
00:40:19.548 --> 00:40:26.388
I'm like, "Okay, I'm not posting that picture for just-" Yeah... "you know, obvious reasons." That's, that's- Um, but yeah, there's, there's guests that have backed out after saying yes, and I...

284
00:40:26.968 --> 00:40:33.288
There's no pushback from me. It's like I get it. Well, you have so many too. It's like- Yeah... yeah. Um, I wanna talk about your voice in the newsletter.

285
00:40:33.348 --> 00:40:42.948
We talked about this a little bit when we were talking about like selling it, but so like you're barely in there. There's like a quick intro note, a quick outro sign-off. It sounds like it's by design.

286
00:40:43.108 --> 00:40:48.988
Tell me about this. Yeah. Early on, I think I was more involved. The Loops acquisition, I kind of pulled back a little bit more.

287
00:40:49.328 --> 00:40:58.868
And then, yeah, it's pretty much just intro, sometimes something like quirky or a poll or something, and then, you know, just a quick sign-off from me, and then like, "Let's get into the workspace."

288
00:40:59.508 --> 00:41:05.958
And I think that there's pros and cons. Um, obviously a big pro is that I can pass it off to someone else, and it won't see a difference. Yeah.

289
00:41:05.988 --> 00:41:09.468
It's not like you need me to be a part of the newsletter, honestly, at this point.

290
00:41:09.498 --> 00:41:22.338
The con is, which I kind of saw around the Workspaces acquisition, like timeline this happened, I used to be able to say like, "Hey, reply to this email with thoughts on X, Y, Z," and I would get, you know, 10, 15 replies, and the newsletter was much smaller then.

291
00:41:22.758 --> 00:41:28.068
'Cause they're finding it deep. If I do that now, I'm lucky to get, yeah, one or two. And I think a couple of things happened.

292
00:41:28.108 --> 00:41:34.788
Obviously now new subscribers don't know me from the beginning, so they're less connected to like that intro, you know- Yeah... early storyline.

293
00:41:35.408 --> 00:41:42.908
And then people that were there in the beginning saw me go through an acquisition, probably... Some of them probably don't even know that I spun it back out, honestly. They're fatigued.

294
00:41:42.948 --> 00:41:51.608
Once or tw- yeah, 'cause they're fatigued. And some of them still think it's probably affiliated with a YC-backed company, and they're like, "Why would I reply to, to this guy? Like it doesn't matter." Yeah.

295
00:41:51.638 --> 00:41:57.908
"He doesn't care what I actually have to say about it," when really I do, and I do like want reader feedback all the time, and I would love more people to reply.

296
00:41:58.708 --> 00:42:06.828
But I think, yeah, they're like, "Okay, there's 14,000 people reading. Someone else will reply. He doesn't really care what I have to say." But when I do get people that reply, I mean, I always reply back to them.

297
00:42:06.888 --> 00:42:11.108
Some people send in paragraphs, and it's, it's awesome. That's so nice. Yeah. And I wish more people would do that.

298
00:42:11.128 --> 00:42:20.888
But I do think around that timeline when it got acquired, got a little bit bigger, there was a noticeable drop-off in, in that happening, and it's kind of unique and interesting, honestly.

299
00:42:21.068 --> 00:42:27.700
That is, that is really interesting. Um-So y- we've mentioned this a couple times, how you've never done your own Workspace.

300
00:42:28.000 --> 00:42:35.840
Uh, I, I imagine that's because, like, I mean, like, we keep talking about, like, s-some of these Workspaces are, like, they're so fancy, so expensive.

301
00:42:35.940 --> 00:42:46.980
Um, I know t- like, when I started following, I was like, "Would I ever submit my Workspace?" I was like, "No, nobody needs to see this but me." Um, but to me it's like wh-when would you do that?

302
00:42:47.020 --> 00:42:55.820
Is that, like, the last issue, you've sold it, it's... Or, like, I don't know, issue 10,000, let's sign off with, with Ryan's Workspace. Yeah. Tell me about it.

303
00:42:56.240 --> 00:43:04.980
Um, well, like I said, we've been trying to move for a, a while now, so, like, I've always just been like, "Oh, when we move I'll just do it in the new Workspace." Set up a nice new one. Exactly.

304
00:43:05.040 --> 00:43:13.290
Right now I'm in a basement. The lighting's not great. It looks fine right now, um, but it's just, like, not, like... I don't know. It's not that cool. Like, I couldn't make it- Yeah... like, as cool as I want to.

305
00:43:13.290 --> 00:43:23.220
So- You don't have, like, a view of Dolores Park on a sunny day in San Francisco- No, exactly. I have-... $10,000 desk... I have a view of- Bean chair... you know, the underside of a deck. [laughs] It's not great.

306
00:43:23.460 --> 00:43:31.500
[laughs] Yeah. Um, and so yeah. Like, I've thought about doing it at, like, a, a milestone number. Like, is that 500, which is coming up quick. Uh, probably not anymore.

307
00:43:31.600 --> 00:43:39.919
I've also thought about just waiting until I have, like, a new project to announce. Yeah. Like, do I have something that I can actually, like, bring to the table with this? Because, uh, it is like a...

308
00:43:40.540 --> 00:43:48.240
Which is why people do it now, honestly, it's like a giant ad for yourself. Yeah. So in your bio you have almost 14,000 people getting an email that it's all about you.

309
00:43:48.960 --> 00:43:56.960
So I thought it would be really cool if, you know, I have a new project or, you know, I'm doing something that I'm interested in and I get to announce that at the same time, that would be a cool time to do it as well.

310
00:43:57.960 --> 00:44:05.610
So yeah, I don't know. I'll do it at some point, for sure. I don't know. I'll probably have to bring in someone to actually take the pictures. I can't just be like the guy that- [laughs]...

311
00:44:05.720 --> 00:44:17.380
um, started the newsletter and can't live up to how the picture quality is. Yeah. People have set too high of a bar. Exactly. Do you have any advice you would give to other newsletter operators?

312
00:44:17.620 --> 00:44:29.200
Could be, I don't know, about business side, creative side, any of it. Yeah. I think the biggest learning for me, um, and I think you can do this with any newsletter, I think there's just...

313
00:44:29.240 --> 00:44:37.660
You have to find the angle, is to find a way to piggyback off of someone else's audience when starting out. You're starting from zero, it's, it's frustrating, honestly.

314
00:44:37.720 --> 00:44:43.680
If you're just, like, shouting into the void, it's probably super easy to give up. I mean, I did it the first time I started this type of newsletter.

315
00:44:43.820 --> 00:44:51.270
I didn't get subscribers and it was like, "Why am I wasting time doing this, talking to no one?" Um, and so yeah.

316
00:44:51.300 --> 00:44:58.690
When I started this newsletter, I didn't even tell my girlfriend at the time, now wife, that I was doing this. Yeah. So for like the first six months or so- Six months...

317
00:44:58.760 --> 00:45:06.900
I was just secretly doing this, like, at nights, and doing it, and then it finally started making money and getting traction. I was like, "Oh, hey, look at this-" Crazy. [laughs] "... like, weird thing I started.

318
00:45:06.940 --> 00:45:17.500
I know I work in supply chain, but I also really like this sort of stuff." Like- Hm... how weird is she gonna think this is? And, um, so yeah. Like, it's really lonely at first, honestly- Yeah... if there's no audience.

319
00:45:17.540 --> 00:45:26.320
So biggest advice, find a way to piggyback off of other people's audiences, tag them when you can, pull them into the content in a way that they feel like they're a part of it- Mm-hmm...

320
00:45:26.360 --> 00:45:34.640
so that they're more willing to share, and then they essentially get to help you grow, and then you grow with them. And then they're also tied into, like, you're, you're starting your journey from the beginning.

321
00:45:34.800 --> 00:45:45.190
I think it doesn't need to be a sort of curated newsletter to do that, although it helps a lot. I think that there's probably a way any single newsletter could, could do that, and I think it's amazing.

322
00:45:45.190 --> 00:45:54.000
What's, um, what's your definition of, of a newsletter? What is it? Like, what is a newsletter? I'm always curious. People usually have, like, slightly different answers to this. Yeah. I,

323
00:45:54.940 --> 00:46:01.730
I don't think I have, like, a great def... I just... Something that you're putting, you know, out in the world on email. I th- I think that's, that's really it, [laughs] honestly. Mm-hmm.

324
00:46:01.760 --> 00:46:11.460
I think email is so, so powerful. I think email is going to be, you know, around for almost ever. [laughs] Longer than, longer than, like- Longer than computers... Twitter, Facebook, Instagram, all that.

325
00:46:11.560 --> 00:46:22.500
I mean, it's the only platform that you truly own your audience. So I think a newsletter is just, like, a way to connect with, you know, people like that in a one-to-one kind of owned relationship that is...

326
00:46:22.540 --> 00:46:30.480
You know, you're not having someone like Elon come in and just, like, switch the algorithm in one day and all of a sudden half your followers don't see your stuff anymore. Yeah. No, that's good. I, I...

327
00:46:30.800 --> 00:46:40.540
The definition I've been working with personally is, like, uh, an email sent one to many on a regular basis. Okay. But it is, like you said, it's sent one to one, but it's, like, the one...

328
00:46:40.600 --> 00:46:49.760
It's the one-to-one intimacy on a one-to-many level. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, I like that. Yeah, I think of it as definitely, like, one to one, but, like, you s- like, you're sending it one time to everyone. But- Yeah...

329
00:46:49.860 --> 00:46:50.420
um, yeah.

330
00:46:50.480 --> 00:47:01.530
I just think, like, the way that you can do intros, send-offs, things like that, that, like, they subscribe to you and the newsletter, so at least from the inbox feel it feels like it went from you directly to them- Yeah...

331
00:47:01.540 --> 00:47:07.120
when they're reading it. Um, okay. I just have a couple more questions. One, what's next?

332
00:47:07.130 --> 00:47:19.120
'Cause from what I know, you're about to launch this thing called H1 Gallery, which seems like it's, like, kind of like Workspaces in that it's like a bite-sized thing- Yeah... but it's for marketing site headers.

333
00:47:19.300 --> 00:47:26.580
Um, and then you're helping run this Weekend Design newsletter. That's, that's, that's all I got. What are you doing? Yeah. Yeah. So

334
00:47:27.500 --> 00:47:38.430
coming very soon, probably by the time this comes out, honestly, yeah, something called H1 Gallery, which all of last year I was sort of embarrassed by the lack of side projects that I, you know, launched. Mm-hmm.

335
00:47:38.440 --> 00:47:47.000
It was zero. Which, you know, ironic considering Workspaces was a side project that got me into this entire situation that, like, I'm loving.

336
00:47:47.120 --> 00:47:52.560
So need to get back to, to my roots with that a little bit, and that's what H1 Gallery kind of aims to do. Mm-hmm.

337
00:47:52.680 --> 00:48:06.110
So like you said, it's going to be basically featuring and highlighting the best marketing headlines on the internet, uh, in a week-to-week kind of basis with a simple digest on Beehiiv. Um, and yeah.

338
00:48:06.180 --> 00:48:10.810
I'm going to kind of follow the same Workspaces playbook, like I said, of piggybacking off of other people's audiences.

339
00:48:11.300 --> 00:48:20.800
So every week when I feature them, I, you know, plan on having a Twitter account that will tap into not only the brand, but I'm going to find the marketers that possibly- The brand... are behind that. Yeah.

340
00:48:21.110 --> 00:48:28.360
And kind of bringing them into the conversation and, and doing it that way. So that's coming soon, and I'm excited about that.

341
00:48:28.420 --> 00:48:37.864
My time at Product Hunt kind of taught me thatYou know, a marketing headline and, and the tagline to bring someone in is sometimes even more important than the design itself. Yeah. Huge.

342
00:48:37.904 --> 00:48:45.664
Because you only have a couple seconds to, you know, truly communicate who you are and what you're doing. I've spent hours agonizing over them myself. [laughs] Exactly.

343
00:48:45.744 --> 00:48:53.704
So I mean, a design can look great, but if someone only remembers like, "Oh, this... They have this glossy looking logo, cool. But, like, what do they do again?" It doesn't matter. Mm-hmm.

344
00:48:53.824 --> 00:49:05.524
So I wanna highlight more of that, and it'll be, you know, in a similar style to all those, like, gallery type sites you see on the internet today that are showcasing great design but from more of the marketing copy standpoint.

345
00:49:05.804 --> 00:49:17.724
Mm-hmm. So that's what that's going to be. That's, you know, coming soon. That'll be sick. And then, yes, I am working with, um, Hunter Hammons on both Off Menu and Landed from a content side of things.

346
00:49:17.844 --> 00:49:25.304
And This Week in Design was a newsletter started by, um, someone named Alex, uh, probably a year or so ago, and it was an amazing newsletter.

347
00:49:25.984 --> 00:49:39.504
And he stopped publishing it, so, um, I think the design community kind of felt a void in that. And Hunter went and, you know, acquired it not too long ago, and I'm sort of helping curate, publish that, which is,

348
00:49:40.864 --> 00:49:45.194
uh, [laughs] funny because I'm not a designer at all. Yeah. Well, you're a newsletter guy now. But I'm now...

349
00:49:45.224 --> 00:49:54.174
Yeah, I'm a newsletter guy, but now I'm, I'm playing a designer on Twitter to, you know, bring people, some of them their favorite design newsletter as a non-designer. Yeah.

350
00:49:54.244 --> 00:50:03.024
And, you know, some of them hopefully don't know that, that [laughs] that I'm the one doing it. Um- That's okay. And yeah. I play a podcaster on Riverside, so. [laughs] Yeah.

351
00:50:03.034 --> 00:50:06.484
Yeah, so I've been doing that, um, which is a lot of fun, honestly. It was one of my favorite newsletters.

352
00:50:06.544 --> 00:50:14.844
So it's, it's kind of funny because, like, I liked reading it, so I'm trying to do it in a way that, like, I think Alex would do it. Yeah.

353
00:50:14.904 --> 00:50:24.924
But I also am very aware that I can't be Alex, and he had a certain sort of, you know, sense of humor- Mm... and, and all that to, to his curation.

354
00:50:25.024 --> 00:50:39.524
So, um, trying to find a fine line between that and also trying to, you know, make him happy with it because, like I said, with my acquisition, you know, of Workspaces, it would suck to have that happen, and then you're watching it from the outside and you're like, "I hate the direction this is going in."

355
00:50:39.614 --> 00:50:49.484
Yeah. So I'm thinking about that almost every time I send it now because I would... Honestly, I, I like him as a person, so it would suck if he starts thinking it's not up to par anymore.

356
00:50:49.804 --> 00:50:52.904
That's so interesting that you're like... You've been on kind of both sides of these...

357
00:50:53.204 --> 00:51:02.164
Uh, not that you acquired this one, but, like, to be on multiple sides of, like, the newsletter acquisition and, like, trying to- Yeah... replace a voice. Yeah. Yeah. It's tough.

358
00:51:02.444 --> 00:51:06.004
Um, and his is definitely more of a voice than Workspaces, and I'm still...

359
00:51:06.024 --> 00:51:14.233
You know, even on the Workspaces side of things, if I never got it back and I saw it published by a brand or something, I think I would have feelings about that, so- Yeah. [laughs]...

360
00:51:14.233 --> 00:51:22.844
uh, yeah, I'm just keeping that kind of front and center with, with him specifically, um- I bet you-... because his voice was so strong with it. Yeah. Um, okay, last question.

361
00:51:23.004 --> 00:51:33.013
So starting Workspaces, you were trying to break into this tech world, get out of supply chain, et cetera, uh, and, and you've, you've done it. It, uh, seems like you've, like, fully done it by now.

362
00:51:33.084 --> 00:51:41.453
You're fully in this world. You can, you know, you can find, like, whatever path forward now within this world. You don't have to break any- break in anymore. You're, you're behind the walls. Yeah.

363
00:51:41.524 --> 00:51:55.164
Um, looking back on it, like, I don't know, what are you most fond of, fond memories or, like, proud of or, like, any, I don't know, regrets to? Like, you, you got your wish. How does it feel? Yeah, it feels good.

364
00:51:55.264 --> 00:52:05.024
I mean, there's still, like, a lot that I have to, to do, improve, um- The reward for work is good work is more work. Yeah, yeah. Um, and I don't... Honestly, I don't even know if my work's that great, to be honest.

365
00:52:05.074 --> 00:52:16.804
[laughs] I think I'm really good at, um, doing my own projects specifically. Mm-hmm. And, um, I've kind of learned this recently, um, maybe I have more motivation for my own projects versus other people's.

366
00:52:16.864 --> 00:52:27.334
And finding that fine line of, like, you need to still have the passion and everything for, you know, other work that isn't your own, um, it's... it can be tough, especially when you see, like, your own things. Yeah.

367
00:52:27.334 --> 00:52:31.304
You kind of wish that that could be your full thing. Um, but no, I still have a lot to prove.

368
00:52:31.444 --> 00:52:38.444
And, you know, obviously, when you're laid off from somewhere, I think that, like, kind of reignites a little bit of passion both in side projects and what you're doing going forward.

369
00:52:39.184 --> 00:52:46.564
Um, you know, no hard feelings towards anyone, but I would love to, you know, prove that that was possibly a mistake or something like that. Yeah.

370
00:52:46.744 --> 00:52:54.084
Um, whether that's with what I'm doing now or, or in the future, um- Fire in your belly. Yeah, yeah. I think I still have a lot to prove. I don't think I'm great at anything.

371
00:52:54.144 --> 00:53:04.624
I think I'm decent at, you know, a handful of things. And yeah, we'll see. There we go. Cool. Well, uh, thanks. Thanks for coming on the pod. Thank you. This was a lot of fun. Yeah, good. I'm glad you had a good time.

372
00:53:04.804 --> 00:53:16.944
Uh, where should people go to find your work? Uh, WorkspacesXYZ on Twitter, uh, workspaces.xyz on the internet. And what else?

373
00:53:17.904 --> 00:53:26.764
Uh, I guess just @rjgilbert, and you'll be able to see H1 Gallery and anything else I'm doing, you know, somewhat soon. And yeah, that should do it. Awesome. Hit him up, people.

374
00:53:27.204 --> 00:53:35.364
Uh, this has been the Creator Spotlight Podcast. I've been your host, Francis Zur. Ryan, thank you again for joining us. And listener, I will see you next week.

375
00:53:36.824 --> 00:53:54.163
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