WEBVTT

1
00:00:00.080 --> 00:00:09.060
That video has accrued 18 million views, has made me [laughs] $50,000. Your audience today as we speak, just over 1.4 million total. It's been a decade of this.

2
00:00:09.340 --> 00:00:19.660
You specifically want to be seen as a content creator with various skills rather than an influencer. The way the whole lifestyle influencer thing sort of shook out was a bit of a mistake.

3
00:00:19.840 --> 00:00:30.340
Oh, so you had to follow the money? Yeah, ba- basically for four or five years, the money there was just so good. My new label that I want to be called is more of an artist.

4
00:00:30.620 --> 00:00:39.980
Walk me through all the different ways you make your money right now. Okay, so... Welcome back to the Creator Spotlight podcast.

5
00:00:40.200 --> 00:00:50.620
My name is Francis Serere, and today we're speaking with Lucy Fink, a creator who's been in the game for over 10 years. She got her start working at Refinery29, hosting and producing videos for them.

6
00:00:50.949 --> 00:01:03.800
Then she left in 2019, and since then has built her own media business, lifestyle content, her podcast. She's got a bunch of different revenue streams, multiple six figures surely. She has one full-time employee even.

7
00:01:03.860 --> 00:01:14.620
She's learned a lot over a decade plus in the business. I learned a lot from this conversation. I think you will too. So I've heard you speak about learning to deal with the trolls and angry comments- Mm...

8
00:01:14.680 --> 00:01:19.420
ever since you first went on camera for Refinery29. It's been a decade of this.

9
00:01:19.800 --> 00:01:27.000
Obviously, anybody who's been on camera for long enough, and especially women who create lifestyle content, there's always this troll element.

10
00:01:27.100 --> 00:01:35.400
You're the first person I've ever heard of, though, who once reached out to- [laughs]... one of their trolls and had a call with them. I don't need you to recap the whole story.

11
00:01:35.460 --> 00:01:46.860
Basically, I understand you called this person, and basically everything good about your life was the inverse in her life, and- Yes... face-to-face on the call, there was no vitriol. It was quite emotional.

12
00:01:47.660 --> 00:01:52.720
Why did you reach out to this person? What point in your career was this? And why do you think she took the call?

13
00:01:53.560 --> 00:02:02.640
Yeah, I mean, I've been through a rollercoaster of emotions as far as how to respond to these types of comments and how much they're actually impacting me on a day-to-day basis.

14
00:02:02.720 --> 00:02:18.590
And I think at the very beginning, anyone who's a somewhat of a new creator can probably relate to the fact that at first, starting to get negative comments and hate and people who just don't like you for you, there's an element of shame or embarrassment or, like, you just...

15
00:02:18.600 --> 00:02:29.440
It's almost like a flight mentality where you're just like, "I don't wanna fight you. I just want you off my page." So there's a lot of blocking and deleting and just trying to pretend it doesn't exist. But

16
00:02:30.800 --> 00:02:45.380
as you were saying, after decades of doing this and being in this space and showing up regularly and kind of committing both to myself and just to the world, like, I'm here, and this is a public forum, and that's what the comment section is for, so go at it.

17
00:02:46.280 --> 00:02:54.980
I have had to sort of loosen the reins of- Hmm... what I'm comfortable receiving, and I think at the, the moment I got this particular woman's comments,

18
00:02:56.300 --> 00:03:09.860
for whatever reason, I didn't view them with any lens of embarrassment or shame or, "Should I delete this? Should I block her?" I, I think the first thing that came to mind was curiosity about- Hmm...

19
00:03:09.960 --> 00:03:24.960
who, what is going on here? Who is this? What would drive a person to do this? And just in more recent days, I've... more recent years, I guess, my whole platform has sort of led in a human interest direction.

20
00:03:25.020 --> 00:03:34.600
I'm extremely curious, and I'm interested in not only trying lifestyle experiments and changing things about my own life, but I'm so curious about humans, and that's the whole- Hmm... premise of my podcast.

21
00:03:35.020 --> 00:03:47.900
So I just really wanted to know what could drive a person to come at me with such anger and- What, what year was this? I think it was 2020, 'cause I, I believe it was over COVID.

22
00:03:48.240 --> 00:03:59.829
Okay, so you were already doing your own thing. You'd already left Refinery29. Yes. And I just had no, [laughs] no knowledge of what... I had theories about what being a troll,

23
00:04:01.060 --> 00:04:03.150
you know, what would drive someone to be a troll. Hmm.

24
00:04:03.150 --> 00:04:14.760
And I had done some little experiments here and there where I would respond in different ways to people who were leaving mean comments and seeing their replies to my response, and I, I had developed a few theories.

25
00:04:15.120 --> 00:04:26.320
I pretty much, without fail, people would do one of a few things. If I, if I responded, I always responded to mean comments kindly, so if I ever got, if I ever wrote back kindly,

26
00:04:27.300 --> 00:04:37.740
it was pretty clear that people were not gonna stray from this formula. Hmm. Either they were going to immediately delete their comment and get embarrassed that I actually saw it and just, they would disappear,

27
00:04:39.280 --> 00:04:46.740
or they would write back and double down and be aggressive, in which case I know they're just here to fight, and there's kind of no use going down the path.

28
00:04:47.160 --> 00:04:55.260
Or the third one was that they would just sort of flip the switch and be like, "Oh, I didn't even know you were really here. Hi, I love your videos." [laughs] Like, "Sorry, I hope I didn't hurt your feelings."

29
00:04:55.890 --> 00:05:09.380
[laughs] And I had done these experiments, and I had basically figured out some of these people, but I really just needed... This one woman was kind of- Hmm... frantically attacking everything in a few-hour period. Hmm.

30
00:05:09.400 --> 00:05:19.250
So I just needed to know, and we got on the call, and just like you said, it was, it was bizarre how it was d- truly from the place you would think

31
00:05:20.260 --> 00:05:28.000
someone who's just unhappy with their own life and exactly what you would think it is, someone who just wants to take someone else down to knock themselves up a little.

32
00:05:28.140 --> 00:05:36.600
You, on a recent episode of your podcast, you had a follower of yours on. This is a thing you do on your podcast. You have audience members on. People can submit themselves, submit a question.

33
00:05:36.640 --> 00:05:39.520
They can be anonymous- Mm-hmm... and you can answer the question, or they'll come on.

34
00:05:39.560 --> 00:05:49.580
But a follower came on to sort of challenge you on the privileges in your life and, you know, what you put into your videos, your lifestyle, your con- you make a lot of lifestyle content. There's an inherent privilege.

35
00:05:50.280 --> 00:05:59.550
She come on to challenge you. Tell me how that episode went for you. Yeah, so when I got... We had this application form, lucyfink.com/apply.

36
00:05:59.610 --> 00:06:20.390
People can submit to be on the show, and often it's to come on as a guest to talk about their own life story, something happening in their life that's crazy interesting, fascinating.This application was from a girl who lives in rural Colorado who has a very similar life to me, and we're at a very similar age and stage of life and have a lot of similarities.

37
00:06:20.470 --> 00:06:22.250
But financially

38
00:06:23.450 --> 00:06:39.730
is where the big discrepancy lies, and I've been very open with my audience about my, you know, being born and raised in a wealthy suburb of New York, and my parents putting me and my siblings through college with no student loan debt, and just being set up for success in any way that a person could be in the world.

39
00:06:40.430 --> 00:06:52.890
And this woman had kind of the opposite financial situation, and she was living with her husband and two kids in a- Mm-hmm... 550 square foot log cabin in the middle of the woods with not many amenities.

40
00:06:53.010 --> 00:07:07.020
And she kind of wrote on to talk about how she followed me because she felt like we were similar, but then over time, my content has just proven to her how different we are, mostly in the sense of money. Mm-hmm.

41
00:07:07.070 --> 00:07:14.970
And she just wanted to have an open conversation about privilege and finances and our different lifestyles and different places.

42
00:07:15.070 --> 00:07:28.170
I even say in this episode when I first got that submission, my initial thought was, "Wow, years ago, this would be the type of submission I would just archive in my inbox and not even- Hmm...

43
00:07:28.270 --> 00:07:40.380
open, or maybe I would respond to her but not take on the, you know, task of putting it on the podcast and blasting it out," 'cause there was a part of me that thought, "What's, w- where's the benefit for me in this?

44
00:07:40.410 --> 00:07:49.810
Like, I'm just gonna bring someone on who's gonna, I don't know if it's, like, make me feel bad about myself or embarrass me or make me just feel like a dumb privileged [laughs] person. So what's the benefit of this?"

45
00:07:50.690 --> 00:08:04.610
But really, the direction the podcast has gone is leaning into discomfort. Mm-hmm. And with all my guests, I'm asking them really personal questions and trying to get deep answers for the benefit of the listener.

46
00:08:04.630 --> 00:08:17.930
And so who am I to host that show if I can't even be in the hot seat myself? So I decided to bring her on, and it was a really interesting conversation. To this woman's credit, she

47
00:08:18.930 --> 00:08:29.700
had every reason to be one of those people who would be a troll, but she was always very nice. Like, I... To my knowledge, she has never left me any hate on my content. Mm-hmm.

48
00:08:29.710 --> 00:08:40.350
But she was opening up to me about certain things I post or certain things that come out in my content that she, in her own head, says something mean about. [laughs] And she sort of expressed what those were.

49
00:08:40.430 --> 00:08:53.670
Um, and we just had a really interesting conversation about the differences in our lives and, you know, I might have more fiscally, but we talked about the areas of her life that she actually has more wealth in a way.

50
00:08:54.600 --> 00:09:05.300
Mm-hmm. Um, and it was just, it was a great convo. You said that you specifically want to be seen as a content creator with various skills rather than an influencer. Mm-hmm.

51
00:09:05.300 --> 00:09:13.190
I love talking about the, the semantics of the, [laughs] the influencer versus, versus creator. I would love to hear how you think about that difference.

52
00:09:14.610 --> 00:09:28.330
I think an influencer to me feels like someone who's not well-versed at making content, but- Hmm... can do it, and obviously posts a lot of stuff, maybe takes a lot of photos, maybe slaps together some reels.

53
00:09:28.350 --> 00:09:34.530
But there's not a lot of creative juice behind it or storytelling that's going into it.

54
00:09:34.570 --> 00:09:55.110
And so a lot of people who are posting about products who are just standing in front of the camera talking, not that there's not an art form to the pitch of selling a product, but the actual creation of a video where there's creative editing and music alignment and something visually interesting for the viewer, that to me is the art of being a creator.

55
00:09:55.150 --> 00:09:58.150
And it comes across in different ways. There's not one way to do it.

56
00:09:58.310 --> 00:10:10.710
But I've always kind of shied away from the influencer word because to me, I've, I do follow some people who I think that is an influencer, and their content reflects them being an influencer, not a content creator.

57
00:10:10.730 --> 00:10:24.380
But I just think that word content creator has now been kind of the blanket term for anyone who's on the internet making a living, even influencers. So my new word, which is,

58
00:10:25.470 --> 00:10:34.600
you know, not a new word as far as words go in the lexicon of the world, but- Your new self label... my new label that what I want to be called is more of an artist. Hmm.

59
00:10:34.610 --> 00:10:47.770
And I actually re- related to that word years ago 'cause I got my start on Instagram as a stop motion artist. Mm-hmm. And I was animating for brands, and then I started being in it, and that sort of transitioned me away.

60
00:10:47.790 --> 00:11:02.600
But in more recent days with the video content that I create and some of the poetry I've been writing and my- You're working on a novel... new, new big goal of my psychological [laughs] thriller novel- [laughs]...

61
00:11:02.610 --> 00:11:14.900
along with the artistic element of producing videos, to me, the word is artist. And I actually changed- Hmm... my little bio line on my Instagram handle from content creator to artist like two days ago. Hmm.

62
00:11:14.910 --> 00:11:22.530
That's interesting. Uh, that's interesting. I, I thought you were gonna say, when you went, when you got to artist, I thought you were gonna say communicator because- Hmm... you, you used that word a few moments before.

63
00:11:22.710 --> 00:11:30.550
I personally have really identified with that term communicator in that I came up in school, I was always a good writer, mixed in English classes. Yeah.

64
00:11:30.770 --> 00:11:37.110
And I wanted to be some kind of writer, whether that was a journalist or a novelist at various points in my life, right? And now,

65
00:11:38.270 --> 00:11:50.310
at the point I am in my career, I try to think of, I try to think more in terms of being a communicator and maybe this, like, what's the best way to translate this idea to its intended audience, and is that through writing?

66
00:11:50.410 --> 00:12:01.440
Is that through a video? Is that through XYZ format, right? Mm-hmm. Artist is another way to think of that, I would say. But yeah, I, commu- communicator is a candy one, I think. Um- Another word that I- Okay...

67
00:12:01.440 --> 00:12:07.830
like to go to is storyteller 'cause I think that- Hmm... encapsulates it too. Hot word right now. Yeah. That Wall Street Journal article. I'm, yes.

68
00:12:07.910 --> 00:12:20.072
And it, listen, it's, all these words are-Can be loosely used by- Mm-hmm... many for various reasons. [laughs] But that is a word... I just, I, I even feel within myself...

69
00:12:20.302 --> 00:12:30.242
I was telling a friend the other day, when I go... Let's say something happens to me in my life and I'm on my way to get coffee with a friend, and I'm about to tell the story to my friend. Mm-hmm.

70
00:12:30.402 --> 00:12:40.182
The whole car ride for me is spent mapping out the order in which to tell the various elements of the story so that it lands the best, and

71
00:12:41.622 --> 00:12:47.931
I, I feel when I, even when I'm just talking about something that happened in the house, it's like I am crafting a story and telling it in the right order- Mm-hmm...

72
00:12:47.931 --> 00:12:58.622
and hitting the right beats and g- capturing the emotion and the laughter and the punchlines and that, I think, translates directly into content. I agree. No, I, I, I identify with that term as well.

73
00:12:59.182 --> 00:13:11.242
Uh, I wanna talk a little bit about the Refinery29 days, more leaving there, right? Because this is a key part of your journey to where you are now. Your audience today as we speak is just over 1.4 million total.

74
00:13:11.262 --> 00:13:23.712
It's 530,000 on YouTube, 554,000 on TikTok, 330,000 on Instagram. This isn't counting RSS podcast feed and- Mm-hmm... newsletters, these private audiences. But to get there,

75
00:13:24.682 --> 00:13:34.442
you started as a stop-motion animator, as you said, on Instagram. After college, you work at Ogilvy & Mather, and then you go to Refinery29 where you become an on-camera host.

76
00:13:34.602 --> 00:13:44.022
And then after, I think five years you said, you leave, and they let you keep your audience. You have around 100,000 subscribers on YouTube. Clarify that for me.

77
00:13:44.062 --> 00:13:52.282
So you had a channel that was your name, but that the work you produced with them would be published there, and then they let you leave with it. No.

78
00:13:52.482 --> 00:14:02.552
So Refinery29, unlike a brand like BuzzFeed where all the talent that worked there at the time, because the BuzzFeed was, you know, five times the size of Refinery- Mm...

79
00:14:02.552 --> 00:14:14.402
they forced their employees to create these Facebook pages and profiles that were called like BuzzFeed Lucy or BuzzFeed Francis. Yes. And then when you left, you lost those people.

80
00:14:15.482 --> 00:14:29.802
When I went into Refinery, I had, I, actually it was right around the time, maybe it was like a, a year or two after Safiya Nygaard, one of the BuzzFeed talents, had left, and she made a YouTube video that was called Why I Left BuzzFeed.

81
00:14:30.242 --> 00:14:42.242
Mm. And it was basically like they made me make this audience profile. That was part of it, was that she couldn't keep her own audience and she wanted to be able to own her followers. And so- Mm-hmm...

82
00:14:42.562 --> 00:14:49.042
I brought that video to the head of the video team at Refinery, and I was like, "I just wanna show you what's happening at other media companies.

83
00:14:49.222 --> 00:15:02.462
I would love to be here for a really long time and grow with you and build your platform, but the number one thing that's important to me is that in every YouTube video on Refinery29's YouTube channel," which by the way was being syndicated onto- Mm...

84
00:15:02.492 --> 00:15:08.702
Delta in-flight entertainment and- Oh, wow... Amazon and o- other places, every video I post that I'm in

85
00:15:09.782 --> 00:15:21.042
we're gonna embed in the video, not as like a added-on YouTube subtitle, but like in the video in the final copy my Instagram handle is gonna pop up as my lower third. Mm-hmm.

86
00:15:21.082 --> 00:15:30.242
Because when Refinery then got on Snapchat Discover and they're putting content out to new audiences of millions, my Instagram handle will always be there.

87
00:15:30.862 --> 00:15:43.582
And I saw the direct impact of that request pay off, not only in, from the YouTube channel, Refinery's YouTube channel, driving people to my own Instagram handle, and also that was the same handle of my YouTube channel.

88
00:15:43.642 --> 00:15:51.062
So some people would search it and follow my personal YouTube channel. But also specifically Snapchat, that was a big one.

89
00:15:52.062 --> 00:15:59.992
Right in 2016 when Snapchat Discover, I don't know if you remember that, when they had the bubbles and there were maybe 20 publishers that got a bubble- Mm-hmm...

90
00:16:00.002 --> 00:16:08.242
and that was all that was public to the world on Snapchat, and Refinery was one of them, and they would repurpose my YouTube videos there every week.

91
00:16:08.342 --> 00:16:24.222
And I would wake up some mornings and my Instagram would have 10 or 15,000 new followers, and I would wake up and see this jump from like 80,000 to 90,000 followers and I'm like, "I must be on Snapchat today." Mm.

92
00:16:24.252 --> 00:16:35.102
And then I would go open Snapchat and there it is, and there's my Instagram handle. So I was really, you know, the, as much as they were using me to grow their content, I was using them to build my audience.

93
00:16:35.202 --> 00:16:40.502
And as far as my own YouTube channel went, I wasn't really putting out a lot of stuff there.

94
00:16:40.962 --> 00:16:52.202
On the weekends I would sometimes do my own thing that didn't really make sense for Refinery's channel, and I would put it on mine, but I did have 100,000 people that subscribed- Mm... in my time there.

95
00:16:52.492 --> 00:17:04.822
And then when I left, obviously I just kept my own audience, but I did not keep any part of Refinery's 3 million subscribers that we had grown the channel to. Yeah. Yes. [laughs] Okay, so that 100,000 is the seed.

96
00:17:05.362 --> 00:17:13.582
When you're at Refinery you have this whole team around you. You still have to do a lot of work, but you've got people chopping up clips and distributing them. Yeah. All these things that really help grow the audience.

97
00:17:14.222 --> 00:17:16.682
Suddenly you leave, you don't have a team.

98
00:17:17.262 --> 00:17:30.582
In that first year when you're now trying to reestablish yourself as your own brand and you're not part of a larger team, what were like two or three of the most significant difficulties in setting up your business and regrowing your audience?

99
00:17:31.242 --> 00:17:43.922
Definitely that mindset of Refinery kind of being this well-oiled machine where I, all I was focusing on was YouTube and producing the video, going back and forth with the editor, finalizing the cut, and then I would see it live.

100
00:17:43.962 --> 00:17:56.412
And then I sort of took for granted that Refinery was sending my video out to at least 20 other people who were appropriately sizing, chopping, writing, and spreading it out across the whole internet- Mm...

101
00:17:56.422 --> 00:17:57.542
which was helpful.

102
00:17:57.582 --> 00:18:14.694
[laughs] So when I left, it was almost like it took me at least a year to sort of realize that I needed to be treating my own media company that I had just started as a mini Refinery29, and that I needed to-Be distributing the content into all those places.

103
00:18:15.174 --> 00:18:30.844
And so at first I started doing it myself, but that led to some offloading and delegating and hiring over time. And then, I mean, there was definitely somewhat of a plateau moment with my platforms. Mm.

104
00:18:30.844 --> 00:18:43.234
'Cause as soon as I'm off Refinery29 and I don't have regular stuff coming out on their three-million subscriber platform where they are every week putting paid spend to promote the content and reaching new people,

105
00:18:44.174 --> 00:18:56.054
as soon as I leave that, it's kinda like a dull period of, okay, now I need to ramp up what is my editorial content that's gonna get people to follow me here.

106
00:18:56.134 --> 00:19:06.214
And I alway- I think my Instagram w- and my YouTube, I mean, all my platforms were always relatively healthy as far as engagement and people.

107
00:19:06.274 --> 00:19:23.154
Like, I, I never felt like all of a sudden no one was there, but I had different moments in my life since then that were big growth moments and led to a lot of new people coming for whatever reason, whether it was, like, a micro series I started or, uh,

108
00:19:24.294 --> 00:19:32.914
expanding into different, a new platform and just starting to kind of change the content. But it definitely took, I don't know, it took a lot of...

109
00:19:32.954 --> 00:19:39.694
Ever since I've left Refinery, I feel like I'm living in an experimental zone. [laughs] And I'm still kinda there. [laughs] Yeah.

110
00:19:39.734 --> 00:19:52.094
Well, okay, you, you've brought people in, the team has grown and, you know, contracted over the years. I think right now you have one full-time employee and a few contracted service providers, right? Mm-hmm.

111
00:19:52.134 --> 00:20:03.074
What is that team today? Yeah. So I have one full-time employee who works with me on everything, and she's essentially my director of operations, but also has editing skills.

112
00:20:03.114 --> 00:20:13.194
Like, she has a lot of the same skills I have, so we can- Hmm... tag-team a lot of stuff. She's my one full-time. Then I have another part-time social media manager.

113
00:20:13.954 --> 00:20:26.154
I have a virtual assistant editor who is primarily working on the podcast. I have a team that I hire that manages my two newsletters, which is, that's a one-person team.

114
00:20:26.564 --> 00:20:40.234
Then I have another team of two people that I hire that sort of help with some of my meta ads management, and most of that is for, uh, different, driving to different paid offerings that I'm doing or products or whatever.

115
00:20:40.834 --> 00:20:43.294
And I work, I have a

116
00:20:44.354 --> 00:20:58.674
management team and an agency, so I have a talent manager and a talent agent, and those teams are both in LA, two different companies, and on each of those teams there's probably, like, four to five people that I work with that are the hands on the ground talking to the brands' people.

117
00:20:58.814 --> 00:21:08.074
We don't, you don't have to tell me exactly how much money you make, but I am curious how long it took you to replace your salary at Refinery after leaving. Oh, well, that's a great question.

118
00:21:08.174 --> 00:21:19.094
So I could just tell you the numbers. My salary at Refinery29 was, I think the max I was ever paid was, like, 95K. Mm. Could be somewhere between 92 and 6, I forget.

119
00:21:20.114 --> 00:21:38.574
But when I-- And that was for my full-time job, th- and pretty much I was responsible for at least 52 YouTube videos a year, 'cause I had a video every week, plus there were random brand videos that popped up, random Facebook Lives they wanted me to host, like a lot of other things, but it, that was at least 52 videos.

120
00:21:39.184 --> 00:21:52.704
The year I left in 2019, I sort of eased my way out, so I didn't just cold turkey leave, but I left being a full-time employee and instead we entered into a contract for the year 2019- Hmm...

121
00:21:52.734 --> 00:22:07.514
where I was commissioned to make 16 videos for them, so just four videos per quarter, and that helped me sort of transition away with the audience. And for the 16 videos, I had a contract of 100K.

122
00:22:08.524 --> 00:22:17.194
So- [laughs] And that was my- More money for way less work [laughs] Basically I had more money for a fraction of the work as, as sort of just a c- my first contract- Mm...

123
00:22:17.244 --> 00:22:26.314
then going off on my own and having all the free time. So it took me, you know, negative days- [laughs]... to make back what I was making. Um, and then

124
00:22:27.394 --> 00:22:35.884
really the big kicker in the business was being able to m- make the high majority percentage of my brand deals. 'Cause when I was working- Mm...

125
00:22:35.934 --> 00:22:49.134
at Refinery, they were helping me get brand deals, but they were taking a really large chunk, and then when you move to a talent agency, they take 10%, so. Yeah. Now I imagine you're making a good bit more than that.

126
00:22:49.284 --> 00:22:56.814
[laughs] We just talked about all the people you work with. You don't have to tell me exactly how much you're making now, but I imagine it is, I don't know, two or three times that, if I was just to guess.

127
00:22:58.054 --> 00:23:04.884
You don't have to say anything if you aren't. [laughs] I mean, yeah, it's every year has... I've had interesting... I have a tracker for every year- Yeah...

128
00:23:04.894 --> 00:23:25.574
of the business's revenue, and it's been interesting to watch the cycle of it, because there were a few years there where it was just going up, up, up, and then around different times in my life, whether it was a year that I took a maternity leave in the holiday season, which is like a huge brand deal time, and I couldn't do any work, or years when I was pregnant,

129
00:23:26.574 --> 00:23:40.054
that there have been, it's gone lower, then higher, and lower, then higher, and so it hasn't been a straight upward trajectory, but- Yeah... 2025 for me was a big year. 2025 was actually my lowest net year- Wow...

130
00:23:40.134 --> 00:23:50.974
in maybe six years, and that's because I have paid more people than I've ever paid [laughs] to build different systems and help me with some of these various revenue streams that I've been opening.

131
00:23:50.984 --> 00:24:00.734
And so my hope is that 2026 sees the fruits of that labor, but we're, we're still only in month one. Yeah. So let's walk through those revenue streams.

132
00:24:00.774 --> 00:24:10.214
You recently did a whole video breaking this down on your channel, so anybody listening who wants a lot more detail than that should go watch that video. Maybe Producer Tom will link it in the description.

133
00:24:10.814 --> 00:24:24.446
But walk me through all the different ways you make your money right now. Okay. SoNumber one, and kind of the easiest, cleanest one, is the brand partnerships, and that comes in through my agency or my manager, and

134
00:24:25.486 --> 00:24:39.866
I walk away with 75% of those deals because I... Oh, no. Sorry. Wait. Yeah, 75% of those deals- Yeah... because I give 10% to the agency, 10% to the management company, and 5% to my attorney, so.

135
00:24:40.106 --> 00:24:53.486
And, and what percentage of your overall revenue pie does that make up? Um, in years past, it was, like, 90%. Wow. Now, it's [laughs] probably gonna be different because I've opened up some other things, so.

136
00:24:53.546 --> 00:25:00.796
This is the goal. This is, yeah. Good. Yeah. This is the year that hopefully that number will be more like 50% or, I don't know- Mm-hmm... not, not 90 or 80.

137
00:25:02.886 --> 00:25:18.986
The next revenue stream that's been opened is my one-on-one coaching and consulting arm of my business. So I work with about three to five clients one-on-one every month, and it's, like, a months-long coaching package.

138
00:25:19.066 --> 00:25:31.366
Four weeks, it's just a four-hour package, but it's a relatively high-ticket offering for four hours of really targeted, guided coaching on helping them build their social media platforms.

139
00:25:31.446 --> 00:25:37.366
It primarily focuses on Instagram, and it's not really for aspiring influencers.

140
00:25:37.406 --> 00:25:50.466
It's, some people are actually aspiring creators, but it's actually mainly been for people who have completely different jobs but who know- Mm-hmm... in 2026 that they need to be on social media to grow their business.

141
00:25:50.526 --> 00:25:59.066
So I work with real estate agents, dermatologists, people that have products, anything like that. Um, and I help them create series, and they show up on camera.

142
00:25:59.166 --> 00:26:08.106
I actually develop the formats and series for them and then give them all the production tools and knowledge and give them a content calendar and set them on their merry way. So that's been a- You actually, wait.

143
00:26:08.166 --> 00:26:19.036
Really sorry to interrupt you, but really quick, I, I heard you in a net- I think this was in that revenue stream episode of your podcast I mentioned, but you had described it as coaching and then in the middle of talking about that- Yes...

144
00:26:19.046 --> 00:26:27.406
you shift to calling it, like, "Actually, I'm just a social media consultant. It's not one-on-one coaching." Yes. That was an interesting semantic difference.

145
00:26:27.506 --> 00:26:37.946
Yes, because I work with a coach who helps me with my business mindset, and it's very much a coach, and she is- Mm-hmm... she's coaching me. She's guiding me. She's giving me journaling prompts. We're thinking.

146
00:26:37.986 --> 00:26:45.546
It's whatever. When I actually think about what I'm doing for these clients, I am coming into their business as a social media strategist and- Mm-hmm...

147
00:26:45.566 --> 00:26:59.106
essentially getting some information from them, doing my own research on their niche, and then giving them formats that I suggest and then tips and strategies on how to show up continually and have the best growth and

148
00:27:00.286 --> 00:27:11.146
goals that they wanna hit from their platform. So that's been one of the most rewarding streams because I just love doing those calls, and- Mm-hmm... that's just been...

149
00:27:11.186 --> 00:27:22.966
I, it's something I had done in the past, but now that I've opened it more regularly and I have a r- running application form and I just have applicants coming in that I'm booking three to four months out, that's been really enjoyable.

150
00:27:23.066 --> 00:27:33.526
Next is the new course that I launched, so this was a, the first time it's happening is happening right now, but it's a YouTube Launch Your Dream YouTube series course- Mm-hmm... that I

151
00:27:34.546 --> 00:27:44.856
lowered, instead of charging what I would charge for one-on-one, 'cause there's a lot of people in it, I lowered the price somewhat, but it's still a relatively high-ticket course, and we have a cohort of people going through it together.

152
00:27:44.886 --> 00:27:48.456
And this is a course that I would love to build out and grow and

153
00:27:49.526 --> 00:28:01.796
run multiple times a year and keep taking on different cohorts and ultimately funnel the cohorts into some sort of ongoing membership community where we can continue showing up and talking- Mm-hmm...

154
00:28:01.796 --> 00:28:12.306
about content and strategy, which is sort of similar to my paid newsletter, so that's another stream. There's the Creator Confidential paid newsletter.

155
00:28:12.555 --> 00:28:22.756
It's somewhere between $8 and $10 a month, or you can pay for the year and get a discount on it, and that's two times a month, a super valuable article that's coming out. That is,

156
00:28:23.866 --> 00:28:34.826
if you think I'm being honest in this conversation, it's like- [laughs]... times 500 with numbers and screenshots and a lot of background stuff that I wouldn't publish on Instagram. [laughs] Mm-hmm.

157
00:28:35.446 --> 00:28:44.986
And we have a- about 100 people in that right now, and, you know, just launched it a month or two ago. So I'm excited to keep growing that, and the best thing about a newsletter, as you know, is

158
00:28:46.226 --> 00:28:53.976
as you keep going over time, it just keeps, like, the price doesn't keep going up, up, up by that much, but the value of the newsletter just keeps growing.

159
00:28:53.976 --> 00:29:04.276
'Cause it's like as soon as they sign up, they're gonna unlock this archive of- Yeah... hundreds of amazing articles that you've written in the past. So that's been a really good one. Then

160
00:29:05.326 --> 00:29:11.836
other revenue streams, my podcast- Hm... was a huge- Two years in... new addition. I'm two years in. Mm-hmm.

161
00:29:12.686 --> 00:29:21.706
First year it did pretty well, but there were some production costs to get up and running, so it was okay, and then second year

162
00:29:22.826 --> 00:29:35.726
I switched to a new network, and I was on a n- a new network that had some higher threshold minimums of how many downloads the show needed to be getting regularly before they could monetize- Mm... it with sales.

163
00:29:36.586 --> 00:29:50.186
So I was in really ramp-up views and downloads mode for a while, and just in the past maybe two, three months it started selling. And already it's more...

164
00:29:50.226 --> 00:30:01.156
Like, just put it this way, in January, it's more than my other outside brand deals from the podcast, so I do think that's gonna be a big revenue stream for me, although unfortunately there are more,

165
00:30:02.526 --> 00:30:12.986
unfortunately or fortunately, I don't know, there are more people involved in it, so my portion- Oh... of the pie is smaller, so, like, a big deal there doesn't go as long of a way for me- Yeah...

166
00:30:13.026 --> 00:30:18.746
because I have a network and multiple agencies and it's just a little bit- Do you work with Dear Media? Did you work with them from the beginning?

167
00:30:19.146 --> 00:30:23.790
No, so I was on Cloud10 in the beginning.And Dear Media was just my dream network.

168
00:30:23.850 --> 00:30:35.530
I always wanted to launch a show with Dear Media, but when I pitched them my show, they were like, "We're, we're not starting new shows with creators right now. We're really only acquiring existing shows.

169
00:30:35.590 --> 00:30:47.050
So go start it elsewhere, and then we can keep in touch." And I started it at another network that was great and gave me a chance and, you know, launched it with me. But had some legal...

170
00:30:47.090 --> 00:30:57.670
I had some issues with when I ultimately wanted to move over to Dear Media. Yeah I didn't realize that I had, uh, given some of the IP to the first network, so now everyone's involved.

171
00:30:58.110 --> 00:31:03.790
[laughs] So yeah, it's become a little bit of a hoopla, but we're all happy, and we're all friends. A lot of slices of the pie. We all get along.

172
00:31:03.870 --> 00:31:13.280
A lot of slices, like it is a, a big pie that I'm seeing less than 50% of, but it's fine. And I, I just also love the podcast. Mm-hmm.

173
00:31:13.590 --> 00:31:28.670
So I even said to myself when I started this show that my goal with it was not to make a huge revenue stream. It was to kind of expand my footprint and my content and just offer new things to my followers.

174
00:31:28.680 --> 00:31:38.160
So I was never chasing the money, but obviously now that I see how much work it is, I'm like, we kinda deserve to be making money [laughs] from this, and it costs me a lot to run. Mm.

175
00:31:38.230 --> 00:31:49.740
I have to pay, even though I'm on a network, I pay out of pocket myself for the studio space, for the editors. Mm. And of course, I do all the time and work. So you do want it to monetize, and thankfully it is. Yeah.

176
00:31:49.810 --> 00:32:03.720
So the podcast is becoming good right now, and then other revenue streams, I have sort of the standard influencer revenue stream of affiliate revenue from posting, whether it's on Amazon or Shop My Like To Know It.

177
00:32:04.370 --> 00:32:15.300
For me, because I'm not a blogger, and I don't think people are necessarily there for my links, it's never been a huge money maker in my business.

178
00:32:16.170 --> 00:32:24.610
I've been on brand trips with people who are making so much money from affiliates, and I realize, like, their whole platform is about selling products. Yeah.

179
00:32:24.620 --> 00:32:31.950
So it's just n- um, it's never gonna be like that for me, and it's fine. But I have been able to make some side income from that. Let's go back to the education products.

180
00:32:31.990 --> 00:32:44.110
So I know that in 2020 you did a one-time Instagram branding course. Yes. I think you had it up for two weeks, and then you took it down. That tells me that maybe you felt you weren't ready to do an education product.

181
00:32:44.130 --> 00:32:44.859
They're hard to get right.

182
00:32:45.030 --> 00:32:57.780
I've talked to a few different people who have done them, and the theme I see, and this makes sense with what you're doing too, is that the ones that do the best and the ones that are the stickiest and get the best reviews are typically those that are cohort based because you can...

183
00:32:57.810 --> 00:33:05.530
Like, anything you need to learn about is usually out there. You don't need to pay to get, like, a, an e-book or whatever it may be, right?

184
00:33:05.570 --> 00:33:13.570
Like, maybe, and maybe the people who made those e-books, et cetera, have really concentrated the value, produced a workbook format for you.

185
00:33:13.970 --> 00:33:25.130
But I personally, and I think th- this is most people, learn the best alongside other people in a time-limited course concurrently. You can ask people. Mm-hmm. So what

186
00:33:26.110 --> 00:33:36.470
went wrong, or what wasn't right about that Instagram branding course in 2020 that you then are taking into the cohort course that you're currently in the middle of? Great question. So

187
00:33:37.410 --> 00:33:49.590
it wasn't per se that it didn't do well. W- I sold that course with a friend of mine who lived in Germany at the time. Mm. And we worked together on it. She really brought the mindset,

188
00:33:50.590 --> 00:33:55.450
journaling side of it, and I brought the social media, you know, what to do side of it.

189
00:33:55.490 --> 00:34:09.370
So it was sort of a nice merging of, here are your homework prompts and things to think about, and then here's the tangible facts of what to do. And we created the course in a way that, as you said, it was not live.

190
00:34:09.390 --> 00:34:19.490
It was like a go at your own pace, here's 10 modules, I don't know how many there were, and we coded the web... We didn't even do it on a course platform like Kajabi or anything.

191
00:34:19.550 --> 00:34:30.890
It was like she coded the site where as they were going through, they would check off the module, and it was, like, filling up this ticker, and it was beautiful, really well done. But... And it sold relatively well.

192
00:34:30.930 --> 00:34:43.760
Like, I, I don't know what a good amount would be for someone who's selling a... It was a $290 course. But we had a few hundred- Mm... people buy it, um, in that two weeks that we sold it. And I think

193
00:34:44.990 --> 00:34:59.330
what didn't work about it for me was I freaking hated selling a course. Hmm. The way that I... It did well, and I was happy with the final outcome, and I was happy with how many people were impacted by the material. But

194
00:35:00.590 --> 00:35:13.810
to show up, even though it was just for two or three weeks, to overhaul my platforms for weeks to be selling people on something, even though it was something that I believed in and thought would be helpful,

195
00:35:15.010 --> 00:35:24.930
just felt so boring and s- and icky to me. And I was like, I, I realize that I don't like selling in this way, and I don't wanna sell people on stuff.

196
00:35:25.040 --> 00:35:31.950
And not only that, but I didn't even get the tangible reward of seeing the transformation in people, 'cause everyone was doing it at their own pace.

197
00:35:32.020 --> 00:35:38.220
And it's kinda like we sold it, and then I never heard from many of those people again. You have no idea how it went. I have no idea. Mm.

198
00:35:38.230 --> 00:35:49.690
And so after years and years of being, you know, focused on the brand partnerships and the building and the growing, I s- I actually s- I... This is a case of, like, say it out loud, and it will come.

199
00:35:50.090 --> 00:36:01.250
I said to someone that I was interested in... I moved to this new town, and there were a few people in my town who were, like, asking me questions about social media, and I was guiding them over coffee.

200
00:36:02.020 --> 00:36:14.070
T- And one of them was a sex therapist, and one of them ran this, like, mom program. And I was finding the education for them, it was just rolling off the tongue, so fun for me to talk about.

201
00:36:14.150 --> 00:36:23.390
I was, like, setting up these coffee dates to teach them stuff. And I was like, this is so fun, and at the same time, be- after I said, "I'm loving this. Like, I'm loving teaching this.

202
00:36:23.410 --> 00:36:32.870
Maybe I should get back to coaching," I got two emails in one week from past clients that were like, "I'm pivoting my direction. Are you free for a call? Can we do a one-off?" Whatever.

203
00:36:33.710 --> 00:36:41.822
And I just started slowly opening it where-I jacked up the price. Like, I forget what I was charging before.

204
00:36:41.842 --> 00:36:52.282
It was maybe, like, I was charging 500 for an hour, and I was like, "I'm now only gonna offer a month, and it's gonna be $5,000 for four-" Mm-hmm... "sessions, and that's it." Because

205
00:36:53.402 --> 00:37:03.822
it's not something I need, but I like doing it, and if I'm not doing it, if, if I, if my time wasn't spent doing this, I could be doing another brand thing at this time, so it is taking up valuable...

206
00:37:03.862 --> 00:37:15.112
Or spending time with my kids. So- Yeah... I need to feel like the price is right for it to be happening, but then I feel so good about it. And everyone that I said it to was just like, "Great, when can we start?"

207
00:37:15.822 --> 00:37:27.312
And it was a moment for me of like, in the past it was sometimes hard to ask for $500, and now here I am asking for 5,000, and no one's questioning it. Mm. And the way that I've gone about

208
00:37:28.562 --> 00:37:35.782
selling this on my social, and even the YouTube course, it's like I have changed my whole strategy. It- it's not even a strategy.

209
00:37:35.802 --> 00:37:46.402
It's like I just have m- changed my mindset of how I'm approaching this, which is that I have such a healthy, thriving business doing other stuff that this coaching and these courses are so

210
00:37:47.742 --> 00:37:56.562
for fun for me that I don't really need a client. Like, I don't need you- You also need less sales. You don't need to sell that many of them to sell out. Exactly. I don't... I...

211
00:37:56.582 --> 00:38:03.742
And, and honestly if I have no coaching clients in a month, it's not like I made no revenue that month. So genuinely I'm like, "I don't need any of this.

212
00:38:03.782 --> 00:38:17.482
It's all just if the people are right, and if they align, then I'm here and I would love to help, but I do not need to sell you." So I've totally changed even just my language in the whole process of them signing up.

213
00:38:17.822 --> 00:38:26.282
It's like when they go to sign up, I've tried to take out all the friction of needing to sell them on it. Mm. So I give them the information on the page, and then they pay.

214
00:38:26.322 --> 00:38:36.562
And then I send them an application for them to apply, and they've, like, already paid. [laughs] So then once they get accepted, if they get accepted, it's like, "Great, you already paid. When do you wanna start?"

215
00:38:36.582 --> 00:38:46.122
And I don't need to, like, go on a discovery call and sell them on doing it. Mm. It's like, "If you wanna do this, I'm here. If you don't, I'll work with someone else, or I'll just be doing my other thing."

216
00:38:46.202 --> 00:39:01.162
How many people are in this first cohort of the, the eight-week course? The eight-week course has 22 people, and that's- Were you- Not a thou- the, the course is 2,500. Yeah. Yeah. Were you oversubscribed? Um,

217
00:39:02.382 --> 00:39:10.702
as far as how many I wanted in there? Uh, or did, uh... Like, did 50 people respond- Oh... and you had to tell 28 of them, "Sorry, next time"? Yes. More people...

218
00:39:10.872 --> 00:39:22.022
I, I don't think it was 50, but more people than we let in. There were some people [laughs] who applied who paid, and then we sent it back, and it was just- Oh, wow... more so, like, a energetic alignment or me...

219
00:39:22.262 --> 00:39:31.791
I really wanted people in the course who I was like, "I genuinely feel you could have a YouTube channel," which do- didn't need to be people that already had a big following on social. Mm.

220
00:39:31.802 --> 00:39:41.482
But something about being able to see their social and seeing who they are and seeing what they were already doing, I just didn't wanna take people in who I was like, "You're just never gonna have it.

221
00:39:41.742 --> 00:39:53.282
[laughs] You're never-" Yeah... "gonna do this." Um, and so... And I didn't limit it to women. There are a couple men in it. But I always like to weed out some people. Yeah. No, certainly.

222
00:39:53.342 --> 00:39:58.272
You wanna make sure that they're actually gonna get what they're, what they want out of it. Um, one...

223
00:39:58.332 --> 00:40:05.142
To go on a totally different topic, one thing I noticed when I was preparing for this on your YouTube audience growth, right? There's this website Social Blade.

224
00:40:05.162 --> 00:40:14.042
You can see historic YouTube growth data, all, TikTok, et cetera, all these platforms. But I saw this weird graph on yours.

225
00:40:14.082 --> 00:40:31.542
So I could look as far back as January 2023, so three years back, and at that point, January 20- T- January 2023, you were at 421,000 subscribers, and you had a really productive growth period that ended nine months later in September 2023 at 505,000 subscribers.

226
00:40:31.562 --> 00:40:41.242
So that's really good. It's a big spike. But then- What was it from? 400... 421,000 to 505,000. Okay, got it. In nine months. And that is, um, just basically throughout the year of 2023.

227
00:40:41.582 --> 00:40:57.761
But then over the next year ending on December 2024, you only add 4,000 subscribers net. So over one year, about 13 months, 14 months there, you go from 505 to 509,000. It's this essentially flat year, this plateau.

228
00:40:58.151 --> 00:41:09.972
And I was wondering, like, did she stop posting? But you didn't, and your videos were still doing well. And then now, so a year after that, a year after landing at 509,000, you're at 530,000.

229
00:41:10.062 --> 00:41:20.002
So it was a much better year, but still quite flat, especially in relation to that, that earlier period, which maybe you had, you'd had even more growth that I couldn't see on that graph.

230
00:41:20.702 --> 00:41:30.092
Long way of saying, do you know what that plateau was? Do you know why in 2023 you essentially... Or no, 2023 you did grow. Do you know why in 2024 you essentially were flat on YouTube?

231
00:41:30.942 --> 00:41:43.842
I need to look back when I launched the podcast, but there was a moment in 2024 when I took on the podcast, I basically stopped posting editorially- Mm.... on YouTube- Yeah... aside from the podcast.

232
00:41:43.902 --> 00:41:52.742
And, I mean, that could be what you're talking about, but I actually was thinking not in regards to the plateau, but in regards to the growth,

233
00:41:54.082 --> 00:42:09.252
something interesting that happened on my channel between, I think it was 2021 and 2024, is I experimented and did this one random video with this dance company. Mm-hmm.

234
00:42:09.252 --> 00:42:24.162
They invited me to come into their studio in Brooklyn and do, like, a learn this dance cardio class where I was learning a dance alongside- Mm-hmm... a teacher, and they invited me to do it, no payment.

235
00:42:24.322 --> 00:42:32.522
Like, just come in and do it, and we could film it and put it on, on our app, and asked me if I would put it on my YouTube channel. And I was like,

236
00:42:33.642 --> 00:42:42.538
"This is gonna be so weird for my channel because the, I'm not, like, a fitness dance with me channel." Yeah.But I was like, "I'll just try it." This ac- you know what?

237
00:42:42.638 --> 00:42:51.868
This must have been in 2019, so it was like the first year I was on So I can say... on the app... really quickly, your most viewed video- Yeah... you've got a few of these videos, but your most Yeah...

238
00:42:51.878 --> 00:42:58.558
viewed video with 18 million views posted- Yes... April, 2019. There you go. 20-minute hip hop dance class. And then- Exactly...

239
00:42:58.568 --> 00:43:02.598
like all your top viewed videos, except for a coup- well, let's s- y- your one, two, three, four, five,

240
00:43:03.538 --> 00:43:09.708
five of your most viewed videos are these dance videos, except for your second most viewed video, which is telling my twin sister I'm pregnant.

241
00:43:10.038 --> 00:43:17.618
Yeah, so I did that one video, and actually, if, if you, I don't know if on Social Blade you can see the backend stats on a per video for someone else.

242
00:43:17.638 --> 00:43:28.728
But if you look at it, I posted in 2019, and it was like, eh, like my channel reacted exactly as I thought they would. They were like, "Whatever. What is this?" Yeah. You know, a f- few thousand people watched it.

243
00:43:28.758 --> 00:43:41.848
It was maybe, maybe had 5,000 or 6,000 views. And then one day, right around March, 2020, so COVID- Mm. Uh-huh... when people are all of a sudden like, "Learn a dance. I need to move- [laughs]... my body at home."

244
00:43:41.938 --> 00:43:50.528
Everyone's typing in learn a dance. This video got sucked into the be- like you could see, I use, I use vidIQ, and so I can see- Mm-hmm...

245
00:43:50.558 --> 00:44:04.298
the SEO terms, and I can see which SEO terms I've put on the video that wind up being trending terms and which ones end up making it so when someone types into YouTube, "dance," my video's the number one video that pops up- Yeah...

246
00:44:04.318 --> 00:44:12.398
at least for a period of time. And basically from 2020, for the next six years, it's still going strong.

247
00:44:13.478 --> 00:44:25.618
That video and the SEO behind it is just, it's blowing out, being sent to so many people, has accrued 18 million views, I've shared on my newsletter, has made me $50,000 [laughs]. Wow.

248
00:44:25.718 --> 00:44:43.178
And- In just, uh, Google, or YouTube AdSense? Just YouTube AdSense. And it's also grew my platform. I have to look at what it is, but I wanna say that 200,000 of my 500,000 subscribers have come from dance videos. So,

249
00:44:44.538 --> 00:44:49.127
and I, I did it once, and as soon as it blew up, I was like, "I have to do this again." [laughs] Yeah.

250
00:44:49.158 --> 00:45:01.618
So all over the COVID time and the years after, I did many more of those, and they all performed like relatively well. They're all top performers. And at some point I was like, "So should I just become a dance platform?"

251
00:45:01.678 --> 00:45:11.778
Like I kn- [laughs] I know I'm not a dance person, but I do love dancing. Like if this is where it's going, like I'm not a dance channel, but should I be? Yeah. And just this past year, it must have been

252
00:45:13.058 --> 00:45:22.918
January or December, I forget, but I did another one, but this time it was a paid partnership with the platform. And I was like, "I, I want you guys to pay me. I'm gonna do it, and I'll promote.

253
00:45:22.958 --> 00:45:33.468
Instead of saying nothing, I'll call out your app and your service." And I'm trying to parlay that into a recurring paid partnership, 'cause clearly- Mm-hmm... I have a lot of dancers on my platform [laughs].

254
00:45:33.518 --> 00:45:45.898
But it's just a lesson in taking risks with your channel and, and doing, exploring in areas that you might not be in your niche, you know? Yeah, finding this kind of ripe vein and mining it. Yeah.

255
00:45:46.738 --> 00:45:56.978
So with that, and with, as we discussed earlier, your content shifting as your lifestyle sh- lifestyle shifted, audience going from 18 to 24 to 25 to 34,

256
00:45:58.378 --> 00:46:11.838
is there a phenomenon of like dead weight in your audience, where maybe people who followed you for one thing then are still subscribed, but just stop engaging, and creates this strange video engagement to subscriber count ratio?

257
00:46:12.158 --> 00:46:20.078
Have you noticed any sort of odd audience behavior as you've grown but your content has shifted? Maybe.

258
00:46:20.167 --> 00:46:32.938
I mean, I definitely do receive, specifically on YouTube, where I think that audience w- were the heavy Try Living With Lucy watchers, I definitely get comments quite regularly that's like, "Are you ever gonna do Try Living With Lucy again?"

259
00:46:32.968 --> 00:46:42.638
[laughs] As you said on the Reddit- Yeah... whatever forum, that comes directly to me all the time. Um, I would say maybe there is...

260
00:46:42.698 --> 00:46:57.398
I, I do notice, you know, I, I think a lot of these legacy creators have big followings, and maybe their engagement doesn't match, and I've been having a... I mean, I do feel my engagement is relatively safe and good.

261
00:46:57.438 --> 00:47:02.898
Yeah. Like it's never like I look at my platform and feel like, "Oh, does this look like I have fake followers across any platform?"

262
00:47:03.358 --> 00:47:16.718
So I feel, I do feel good about it, but it's, it is hard to compare yourself as a more legacy creator who's been doing this for a decade to some of the more Gen Z up-and-coming social media people, because

263
00:47:17.678 --> 00:47:26.508
the amount of young people that are following them that always are touching their phone and liking and commenting on everything makes their engagement off the charts compared- Yeah...

264
00:47:26.818 --> 00:47:39.388
to the people my age, who if you looked at my reels, for example, I might actually have the same views as one of those people, but way lower people actually re- liking or commenting- Yeah...

265
00:47:39.398 --> 00:47:40.558
because the audience is older.

266
00:47:41.178 --> 00:47:52.768
Yeah, I mean, looking at just your latest five videos from the last month, the average view count is, I, I'm not good at math, just off the top of my head, it's probably like 70,000 over five videos- Mm-hmm...

267
00:47:52.798 --> 00:48:04.378
which is pretty solid. I've seen some people who their following is millions, and then you look at their most recent videos, they're still posting, and it's like five-digit numbers, like- Mm-hmm...

268
00:48:04.478 --> 00:48:13.918
a few thousand, and it's clear that they were really good at this previous era of YouTube and then just failed to shift as the rules of the game shifted.

269
00:48:14.418 --> 00:48:19.698
I'm not saying that for you, but it, it, it is like a strange phenomenon of like the ghost audience- Mm-hmm... that, that you'll see.

270
00:48:20.178 --> 00:48:30.518
So on another podcast, though, in August 2025, last year, you said that both of your maternity leaves were the biggest growth drivers for your platform. That's a, a direct quote. Yeah. What does that mean?

271
00:48:31.398 --> 00:48:41.478
So both times that I had a kid, and I took dedicated time off from doing brand work, and- You were still making content. You just took three months off from brand work. Yes.

272
00:48:41.498 --> 00:48:45.658
And I wasn't making content on any sort of schedule or holding- Mm... myself to anything.

273
00:48:45.738 --> 00:48:58.558
I was just still showing up and sharing what was happening, and I think-A lot of people were plugged in and tuned in then 'cause they wanted to see the babies and wanted to know what I named them and wanted to just, especially my- the first time, wanted to see how it was going.

274
00:48:58.978 --> 00:49:10.428
And I, because I had no brand partnerships and I just didn't have any commitments of things I had to post, I was in such, both times... Well, partially because of postpartum hormones- [laughs]...

275
00:49:10.438 --> 00:49:19.318
and then also partially just 'cause of the free space and time- Yeah... I was in, like, a next level emotional creativity burst. Flow state.

276
00:49:19.418 --> 00:49:31.018
And yeah, both times I had ideas for pieces of content that were, like, total tearjerkers, emotional. They were making me cry, they were making my husband cry, they were making the baby cry.

277
00:49:31.538 --> 00:49:37.478
[laughs] Like, everyone's just sobbing. Come on, that one's easy. [laughs] Everyone's walking around the house, like, unwell.

278
00:49:37.558 --> 00:49:45.178
And it, it was, as I said before, content that was coming from such an authentic, personal, poetic place- Mm...

279
00:49:45.188 --> 00:49:51.198
that I would put this content up, and not only were people kind of already there wondering what was happening, but then they would see it.

280
00:49:51.228 --> 00:50:02.098
And so some of my most viral Instagram content and TikTok content was from those time periods when my... I just feel my content was particularly meaningful and impactful for people.

281
00:50:02.118 --> 00:50:11.848
And I actually have one, I think it was that video that was 80 million views. Mm. I've reused it multiple times on trial reels, and I've also- Mm...

282
00:50:11.878 --> 00:50:20.178
reposted it many times with different text overlays and sort of recycled the basis of it, 'cause the video with the song worked so well.

283
00:50:20.818 --> 00:50:31.658
And that video I've posted many, many, many times, and I think across all the times I've posted it, it, like, single-handedly grew my Instagram by 100,000 followers in a year. Wow.

284
00:50:32.538 --> 00:50:40.848
And so, and I have the, the b- the stats on the back end are just, when I go to it, I'm like, 50,000 people came from this one time I posted this video,

285
00:50:41.858 --> 00:50:50.858
which is interesting, 'cause then it begs the question of me building an audience that's going in the lifestyle direction, and then- Yeah... all of a sudden I'm gonna go back to, "Peace, I'm on TV".

286
00:50:51.378 --> 00:51:03.418
[laughs] But I don't know. I, I think the thing that remains consistent about my content, and the thing that I actually really love and that I think differentiates me, is how diverse the content is that's on the feed.

287
00:51:03.498 --> 00:51:12.248
And anyone that's followed me for, like, longer than a week or a month and has actually looked at the content holistically on the page- Mm-hmm...

288
00:51:12.398 --> 00:51:21.838
I think might see and say that she's got a whole lot of different creative things happening. [laughs] And sometimes, like, they don't know what they're gonna get from me.

289
00:51:21.978 --> 00:51:35.978
It could be a funny skit where they're laughing, it could be a lifestyle video where I'm making coffee, it could be a poem, something super deep, it could be an emotional crying video about relationships, it could be sharing about someone's crazy story from a podcast.

290
00:51:36.058 --> 00:51:44.458
But it's not very niche, but the niche is that I'm there and I'm the niche. Yeah. And, and I think people,

291
00:51:45.998 --> 00:51:57.458
maybe not everyone's gonna like every piece of content, but I, I like that it's wide-ranging and it doesn't silo me. What is, like... I don't know if you have this goal and you could articulate it, but

292
00:51:58.518 --> 00:52:07.358
the Netflix show goal, I know that's the big thing. What is the year where you're like, "I need to hit that then"? Is it this year? Is it by 2030?

293
00:52:07.518 --> 00:52:20.387
Like, what is the timeline or any detail you can give me on how you're gonna get there? Yeah. So it's funny, it's not... Maybe this is a negative. Maybe I do need some more finite timelines- Tangible. Mm-hmm...

294
00:52:20.387 --> 00:52:35.738
and, and fire to make that happen. But I think it's more... So with the, the Netflix and the hosting, it's more, for me, that's more about being able to be part of a big cultural project that is- Mm. Mm-hmm...

295
00:52:35.998 --> 00:52:51.478
an unscripted hosting opportunity, ideally where I have some production input, and where I can create some sort of content that gets seen by the masses, because I just don't think that's necessarily gonna happen in my own isolated corner of the internet.

296
00:52:51.558 --> 00:53:03.638
So that's why it doesn't have to be Netflix, but I would ideally want it to live on an external- Yeah... streaming platform. And in the past I would always say TV show, but I think now in 2026 it might not be TV.

297
00:53:03.818 --> 00:53:07.898
So whatever that is, I just want it to be off platform from my world.

298
00:53:08.918 --> 00:53:28.498
And as far as the timeline, I, I almost feel like, and I've felt this way about a lot of things in my life, it's something I really wanna do, but I just have so much trust that whatever I'm meant to do is gonna find me if I keep living in my element and doing what's lighting me up in the moment.

299
00:53:29.678 --> 00:53:45.658
And honestly, like, that's what happened with Refinery29. When I graduated from college, I was so not in the mood to be out there- [laughs]... to, like, pitching myself and auditioning for things and

300
00:53:46.598 --> 00:53:58.178
actively trying to get an on-camera opportunity. And I remember I said, "I'm gonna go work at Ogilvy. I'm gonna be behind the scenes." I was working in production be- totally off camera. And I just remember saying, "If

301
00:53:59.258 --> 00:54:11.088
an opportunity to be on camera is meant for me, like, if that's what I'm meant to do, then it will come to me, but I'm not spending my life pitching it out." And- Just stay in motion towards that direction. Yeah. Mm-hmm.

302
00:54:11.098 --> 00:54:19.328
And so I worked behind the scenes, and naturally because I love to do it, I was putting myself... You know, I was making video content, I was making stop motion.

303
00:54:19.678 --> 00:54:26.158
Anytime Ogilvy had any sort of internal company videos that they needed for their conferences, I was, like, raising my hand to be in them.

304
00:54:26.758 --> 00:54:38.838
And I very much emerged at Ogilvy as this, like, young creative person who someone who was the h- the chief creative officer was, took an interest in me and scheduled a meeting with me.

305
00:54:38.868 --> 00:54:49.458
And I basically used it to just, like, share all the stuff I had done with her in the past. And I, I had started a YouTube series for my college and had some Today Show clips. I was on the Today Show as a teen.

306
00:54:49.518 --> 00:54:58.338
So I just showed her all my stuff, not out ofGive me a different job, or, you know, it wasn't a job interview. I already worked there. I was just showing her everything.

307
00:54:59.138 --> 00:55:08.988
And very luckily, about six, three to six months later, she became the COO of Refinery29. Mm-hmm.

308
00:55:09.168 --> 00:55:20.618
And her role there was build up this digital video department, and she, the only person she could think of was this young person she met at Ogilvy who said she wanted to do all this stuff. And so she called me.

309
00:55:20.678 --> 00:55:28.018
I remember I got a Facebook message from this chief creative officer. [laughs] I was like, "Why is she reaching out to little old me?" Facebook message, different era. [laughs] A Facebook message.

310
00:55:28.578 --> 00:55:39.818
And I'm, like, in the middle of the street in Times Square reading this message to my boyfriend, now husband, and I'm like, "Oh my God, she wants me to come in to Forever 21." I didn't know what Refinery29 was.

311
00:55:39.858 --> 00:55:49.408
[laughs] So I was like, "What is it, a clothing store?" Like, she wants me to come in. Yeah. And then of course it just ended up being the best place I could possibly be and a great opportunity. And so even to this day,

312
00:55:50.878 --> 00:55:57.597
any time I'm talking to people and talking to my agents, managers, like we're always kind of discussing, should I just be hiring a production crew and go shoot- Mm-hmm...

313
00:55:57.608 --> 00:56:06.718
a pilot series and then go shop it around place, like at places and see if someone wants to buy what I've made? And I don't know why, I don't want to live like that.

314
00:56:06.758 --> 00:56:12.078
Like, I don't want to be making something and then trying to sell [laughs] it around to people.

315
00:56:12.138 --> 00:56:24.878
It's like if there's a show that I'm meant to host, I'm just trusting that if I tell enough people what I want to do and I'm putting out my creativity and my art form and I'm meant to be the host of something, then it's gonna come in to me somehow.

316
00:56:24.948 --> 00:56:32.098
And maybe it's not. Maybe someone will be listening to this and be like, "Girl, you are lazy as fuck and you're never gonna get a job." [laughs] And you know what?

317
00:56:32.178 --> 00:56:40.648
May- then maybe that's the life I'm m- that's meant for me, is to have a little more low-key and just be doing what I'm doing, which is working. But- You seem to be doing all right for yourself...

318
00:56:40.698 --> 00:56:54.148
it's like if it comes, it comes, and I'm excited for it and I'm not gonna turn it down, but I'm not, I don't want to spend my life chasing because I know that even once I get the show, I'm not gonna feel like all of a sudden I've done everything and I'm fulfilled- No...

319
00:56:54.148 --> 00:57:05.378
and I can d- go die now. There's always the next thing. Yeah. I'm always gonna have a creative passion, so I might as well just keep following the passions and then see what the universe gives me. [laughs] Mm-hmm.

320
00:57:05.538 --> 00:57:15.078
There's always the next thing, and that is the end of this thing. Yes. Lucie, thank you for coming on. [laughs] Where- Thank you so much. This was awesome. Of course. Where should people go to find your stuff?

321
00:57:15.758 --> 00:57:26.998
All right, so on Instagram and TikTok and YouTube, it's LucieBfink, spelled L-U-C-I-E-B-F-I-N-K. And then on my website there's different landing pages for different things.

322
00:57:27.058 --> 00:57:38.738
So there's luciebfink.com/apply if you want to be a guest on the podcast. There's luciebfink.com/apply-coaching if you want to apply to work with me as a coach or a strategist.

323
00:57:39.438 --> 00:57:47.798
And then there's luciebfink.com/youtube, which is more information about the YouTube course, which we'll be doing another cohort probably in the summer.

324
00:57:48.268 --> 00:57:59.698
And lastly, luciebfink.com/confidential for the newsletter, the paid newsletter, Creator Confidential. Perfect. We'll end it right there. Listener, thank you for listening along. Thank you. And we will see you next week.

325
00:57:59.978 --> 00:58:09.138
Ciao. [outro music] Hi there, my name's Tom. I'm the producer of the Creator Spotlight podcast. If you enjoyed that episode, I would recommend this episode with Caspar Lee.

326
00:58:09.558 --> 00:58:13.538
He's another old school video first creator that has been around for a long time.

327
00:58:13.878 --> 00:58:26.998
He was on YouTube about 14, 15 years ago, and he tells us all about his rise and then why he left that behind to move into the entrepreneurship investment space. So I'd recommend that one next.