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The game of content creation is make a hundred videos, one of them will go viral. You keep doing that until you have a sustainable career. I'm not gonna do that. I will die if I do that.

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You don't like to optimize for the SEO. You wanna make what you wanna make on your own terms. Who gives a [beep] what the algorithm... Anyway, go on. Well, no, no, no, no, no. This is perfect. I, I fully agree.

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Content creators don't know how the algorithm functions. I wanna talk about money. Ooh. Ah, um- This is your best performing video ever. Do you have any idea how much you made? Less than you'd think.

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[laughs] Less than you'd think. I'm not making millions of dollars doing this. I'm a working class content creator. It's great to talk to somebody with a master's degree in media- [laughs]...

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about what it means to be a creator. [laughs] Here's the number one thing I would recommend, which is... Welcome back to the Creator Spotlight podcast.

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Today, we are speaking with Jenna Stoeber, a video essayist, podcaster, and live streamer, who a- also has a master's degree in media and culture. So she is a creator by practice and, and by study.

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Um, she's been doing this work for seven years, the first four and a half as a video producer at Polygon, Vox's video game and related culture media outlet, before she went independent in late 2022.

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Um, now she's been building up her creator operations. She's got 32,000 subscribers on YouTube, and she's also writing and producing videos on contract for other media companies on the side.

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So Jenna, before I let you speak, I wanna make sure I have a decent grasp on everything you do, 'cause I'm 95% sure I'm probably gonna miss a few things. [laughs] So there's the YouTube- Yeah... two podcasts, uh- Yeah...

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Burnt Cookbook Party, which you're a co-host of, participant in, and then Big Game Hunger, which you are the host of, and then the contract work, the Twitch streaming, and then all the socials where you kind of distribute some of this work.

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Is that everything? That's, yeah, that's mostly it. The, e- the y- the yada yada yada part of that was all the contract work [laughs] which is- Yeah... is probably an equal amount of work as the rest of it- Mm...

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but, um, is more spread out and less reliable. [laughs] Okay. We'll get, we'll get a little bit into that later. Um- Okay... but I also wanna... One more situating your background question. So

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I, I was, I always try to figure out, like, what's the chapters of somebody's career in, in content- Mm... or whatever.

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Um, and looking, we don't have to do the whole play-by-play, but my impression was that you kind of have three, and I wanna know if this is right or if there's some other ones. Okay. So- I like this. Yeah.

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Feel like I'm being quizzed on my own life. Quizzed on your own, that's what I do here. I, I quiz you- [laughs]... on your own life. Sometimes I know more. Sometimes I know more. Ooh.

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Um, in this case, I don't know if that'll be the case. But okay, so the first chapter is your four and a half years at Polygon, where you, it's your first kind of professional role.

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You'd been, you'd worked in, like, instructional media for a university before, so you'd, you know, you had those skills of video production, video writing, et cetera.

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Um, but that's where you fully learned the language of content creation and distribution in a traditional workplace focused on that.

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Uh, second chapter is your first year or so of going independent, where you're kind of figuring out what that is, getting on your feet, I think figuring out your focus.

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Um, third, the third year, or the third chapter, is about the last year and a half, which I pegged around the start of your Big Game Hunger podcast, um, in, I think, October or September 2023, which is where you've kind of established your projects and you're, you're building them.

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You're not necessarily launching new things. You're focused. Is that it? Are those the three chapters? Am I missing, like, a prequel or a subchapter? I think that's an acceptable way of dividing everything up.

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I would divide it differently. Oh, please. Um, from my perspective, I would say the first chapter of, in, in the continuity of where my career is at now, the first chapter is getting a master's degree.

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[laughs] Yes, okay. Um, that, for, for me, that is, like, the, the core basis, and obviously there's lots of things that led up to that.

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But I, I think for where I'm at with my career now, the, the time I spent getting my master's degree, which is in, uh, video game cultures and horror media- Yeah...

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and which I use every single day I do [laughs] this work, um, is the core part.

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But not only because I was obviously getting my master's degree and studying in that, but I also learned, like, most of the production skills- Mm... during that that I use now.

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So operating a camera, operating a microphone, editing, using software, things like that. Wait, does, sorry- Those are skills. Yeah... to, did you learn those, like, in part of, in your classes, or were these- Yeah...

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like, hobbies you were building? No. This, these, I had classes. Like, we had, we had production classes- Okay... where we were handling m- much, much, much fancier equipment than I use- Yeah... on the daily now.

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[laughs] But, um, we, yeah, we, we, we had production classes.

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Um, we had a production class where we just were hands-on with all of this stuff, which i- is, I think, relatively rare, but I think is kind of a fundamental thing that you n- you should have. Yeah.

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Like, you, if, if you're studying something, you should have hands-on experience, I think, making that thing. And so I, I, that, and m- that's probably controversial for academics to hear. [laughs] No.

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I mean, I fully agree.

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Like, I went to a liberal arts school where I was frustrated by the lack of kind of like hands-on stuff, and then for the first few years after college, I wasn't doing anything related to, to [laughs] what I studied.

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Um, so I, I, I think there should be, like, there should be a focus in these programs.

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Um, was the focus though, was it around, was it broader, like we're training you to enter any sort of, like, video production field, be it- Oh...

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traditional Hollywood, or was it specifically more like internet platforms that you were- Um... focused on? Um, nei- n- neither. Neither. It, it wasn't like a training situation- Yeah...

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because we were master's degree students. The implication of our studies were that we were going to get a PhD and become professors. So, like- Yeah...

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there was never an implication that you would be taking these skills into, like, the workforce. Just that you understand the tools.

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That you understand the tools and that you potentially might teach a production class down the road when you're a full-blown professor. So i- Mm-hmm...

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in a way it was job training, but it was training you to be able to train students. [laughs] Yeah.Classic academia Uh, yeah, basically.

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And then, and then I did a year as a research assistantship, uh, at, while I, while in my master's degree, teaching students how [laughs] to do production. So that, that is where... Like, I got, I...

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We took core classes about production, but then I did spend a year, like, organizing workshops or writing workshops- Mm...

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teaching kids how to use Premiere Pro and Audacity and, and all of these tools, which are quite s- quite significantly different now than they were then. But- Yeah... um, that was where I developed those skills.

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So I would say that's the first part. The second part is, um, doing it as, like, a day-to-day job. Mm-hmm.

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So, and that, that bridges the role I had working at a university after grad school, and then also Polygon, even though what I was doing in those roles was often quite different, um, or the...

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Um, perhaps, perhaps they weren't that different, but the audience was quite different. [laughs] Yeah.

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Uh- Well, I was looking at them, to me, like, the through line is, like, both are basically about creating informative educational videos, right? Like, you were...

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Your title was, like, instructional technologist, so you were- Yeah...

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making these media products for people to learn from, and your video essays at Polygon were much the same, you're just talking about, like, why the Animal Crossing gibberish language- [laughs]...

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is different in America than in Japan, rather than, like, some, you know, more pedantic topic. I mean, maybe that's pedantic, too, but some more- [laughs]... you know, ivory tower topic. Yes.

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Yeah, a- and f- fundamentally, like, the work that I was doing in both of those roles was here's, here's a very complicated pile of information.

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How do I sort it in, in a way that is easy to understand for people who might not have, like, the background that I have or the experiences that I have? So i- i- it, it, it...

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The reason why I chunk those two together, although I think for people, um, looking at my work from the outside they seem quite different, is they, fundamentally they weren't. Uh- Yeah...

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both of those were about going in and processing information to be accessible for other people, and so it was just...

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It, both of those jobs was me Kirby-ing up as much information as I can, chewing it, digesting it, and spitting it back out as a usable media product. [laughs] Yeah. I love that. I love that. I have, like, um, my,

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my, one [laughs] of my pet theories of, of information and information processing and, like, distribution and doing the work you do, um, which, the way you were talking about it reminded me of this, is, like, I call it my, my sushi theory of, of information.

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[laughs] Where it's like you have, um, you know, the fisherpeople who go out and grab the tuna from the sea, and then they sell it to the people at the fish market, and then chefs come and buy it from there, and then those chefs use their knives to break it down.

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[laughs] And then if you're at a nice sushi restaurant, you know, they sell it piece by piece, and the end customer just picks it up with their fingers and pops it in their mouth, and they don't have to do any of that work.

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And, like, your work is, you're like the chef, right? [laughs] Like, you are taking this tuna, [laughs] th- [laughs]... th- these two tunas, I don't know- [laughs]...

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into the kitchen, and you're chopping them up and processing them into, like, um, easily digestible pieces for, for the audience. So question in there, though, um, do you...

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What do you think of yourself as in terms of, like, what your skill is, what your job is? Are you a video producer? Are you, like- Mm... a communicator more broadly? How do you think of what, of what you do?

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Hey, if you're enjoying this episode with Jenna, make sure you follow the podcast so you don't miss next week's episode. We release a new creator interview every Thursday.

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I appreciate your support, and enjoy the rest of the episode. Well, controversially, I do think of myself as a content creator. Mm.

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And I, I have been watching in the past year or two when [laughs] people have really turned their back on the concept of a content creator. Uh, but to, to...

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My argument for that phrasing is that when you listed all the things that I do, how do I sum up that? How do I sum up that I do- Yeah...

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podcasts and live stream and video essays and social media and con appearances and writing for shows, and, like, how, how do you sum up all of that? And it, the answer is, the answer is content creator. But- Mm-hmm...

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[laughs] but if, if, if I make that not an option anymore, generally what I say is I'm either just a freelancer [laughs] Mm... um, which cover, which is the same problem, right?

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Which is that it's very ambiguous and doesn't seem to highlight any one thing, because it can't. Um- Yeah...

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but then pe- pedal to the metal I usually say, um, video essayist, because that's, I, I think, what people know me most for. Yeah. Certainly as I was researching you, that was, like, what stood out to me.

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But I, okay, I really like that you did insist on calling yourself a content creator, because I feel like that's usually a topic that people I, I interview here dance around, especially people from, like, a journalist background.

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Um- Mm... so my favorite question: How do you define the term creator? Creator? Yeah, in this- Ooh... in this content creator sense. Ooh. What is, what is that? I ha- Wow...

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I have a couple definitions, but I need you to [laughs] give me yours first. Ugh. Ooh. Ah. Um, you know, it's a great question. Remove the, the, the, um, descriptor content, it is trickier.

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I, I think a creator is, is simply anybody who [laughs]... This is gonna be so dumb, is [laughs] gonna... anybody who makes something. Okay. Like, right?

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Like, if we think of the creator, 'cause the, the other touchstone I think we have for the concept of the creator is, like, God. Yeah. The, the creator of, of worlds. [laughs] Yeah, which is always, I mean...

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Well, okay, okay, let's, let's dial it back then, 'cause that- [laughs] I, I agree, it's anybody who makes something. [laughs] We could, we could get, we could get philosophical here. But put- Yeah... content back on it.

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I think, I think when I say the word creator, it's always with the implicit content, and I, and, and you know, I kind of cut it out. But, um, yeah, there's always the implicit content when I use the word creator here.

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Well, a- and, and I, I'll say this has just been a longer struggle in my life, is that, like, if I write poetry, am I a poet? If I write- Mm... um, a story, am, a, a novel, am I a novelist? If I make art, am I an artist?

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Yeah. And it, that's, I think, a very difficult question to ask- Yes... because generally speaking I don'tI think those concepts hold a lot of power in them that I'm not necessarily trying to take onto myself. Mm-hmm.

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So I would never be like... Like, I've written poetry. Uh, my poetry- It's presumptuous... is out in the world. It's just, but yeah, I would never be like, "I am a poet," that it, it...

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'cause it's just like, that's not essentially who I am. So, like, with content creation, uh, for me that's a useful term because it kind of holds at a distance all of the things that I do. Mm-hmm.

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Um, and so for me, like, a content creator is somebody who is making content, and I think that's the word that people really fuss with and, or, or really struggle with, which is like, when I say content, I mean things for the internet.

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Yes. So if I'm like, if I'm at home and I make a little clay creature with FIMO or something, and I bake it, and I put it on my windowsill, I have created something. It's not content. Not as a creator, though. Yeah.

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No, it's just, like, a little fun art thing that I did for my own self. If I take a picture of that thing and put it on Instagram, that is content. Yes. Yes.

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So for me, the content aspect of it is very much, like, the digital aspect, and the content creator of it is I'm making digital media for a digital audience. This is, this is perfect. I, I fully agree.

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My, the definition- Good... that I've been working with in kind of that broad sense is, like, anybody creating content for distribution on the internet to an audience of people beyond their immediate friends and family.

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Um- Oh, yeah. Yeah... I think then, you know, when you talk about, like, am I a poet, and then it gets into, like, that kind of capital P Poet, capital C Creator, capital W Writer. Yeah.

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Which I think what that capital means is, like, the implicit word professional before it, right? Mm-hmm. And then in that sense it's like,

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in that capital C sense Creator, it's somebody who is, yes, doing that content creation and distribution, but also, um, with, like, a m- a sophisticated business approach or monetization layer on top of it, where they're not just doing it for fun and, like, t- 'cause they want the attention online and they like getting likes, right?

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It's like- Yeah... no, I'm doing this because I want to monetize it through ad revenue, or it's gonna get me a job, or- Yeah... whatever it is, right? Um, okay, cool.

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I, it's great to talk to somebody with a master's degree in media- [laughs]... about what it means to be a creator. [laughs] Here, let me ask you a simple question. Here's why it's not a simple question.

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[laughs] And you were wrong for answering it [laughs] Exactly. Okay, so going back into that broadness, so you're, you have a strong digital presence. You're on YouTube, um- Yes...

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as we discussed, Twitch, TikTok, Patreon, Bluesky, Instagram, Twitter, and every podcast platform. Um- [laughs]... as a user, as a capital C- Yeah...

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Creator using these platforms, which do you like least and which do you like most? Ooh, I mean, Twitter is what I like least now. [laughs] Yeah. Um, it's just, like, it, it is just, like, a tragic place.

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Uh, uh, it's, it's hard to have built up a following and put so much work into getting that following there and have it just be, like, decimated. Yeah. Um, yeah, that's the hardest part. What do I like the most?

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Um, do you... [laughs] From, like, a user standpoint or from a content creator standpoint? Oh, give me one of each. Yeah. [laughs] From a user standpoint, I do really enjoy TikTok. [laughs] Mm-hmm. Uh, um, rest in peace.

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I don't know when this, uh- As we speak... podcast is coming out. Uh, yeah, for con- for the listener context, we're speaking on Wednesday, January 15th. This will be out in about two or three weeks.

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So, uh, by the time this comes out, something will, something will have shaken out. We'll see. We might all be on Rednote. Yeah. [laughs] Yeah. [laughs] Yeah, from a user standpoint, I quite like TikTok.

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It, it, it, it's alarming in its own ways, but it is, um, horribly addictive, but in ways that I really like. It, it, it's fun- Yeah...

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to tunnel into it and just see what sorts of bizarre delights you can find all over- Yeah... TikTok. But it is, like, from a content creation standpoint, a fucking miserable platform to operate on- Yeah...

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um, 'cause it, you have to do so much editing in the app. You have to do captions in the app, and the captions are really important for accessibility and also, like, SEO optimization. And so having to, h- having to...

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And also, the app is not good at handling videos that are over, like, five minutes. Yeah.

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And it just, like, slows to a halt, and the hours that I have lost [laughs] on caption editing because the platform, like, freezes when it's time to publish videos, unspeakable.

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It's such a, I mean, you put so much work into something that's consumed so quickly, if consumed at all. Yeah.

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Um, and then it's like, it just, it, because of that, it requires that scale, which is, like, annoying for somebody like you because I know that you don't like to optimize for, like- [laughs]... the SEO and the scale.

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You wanna make what you wanna make on your own terms. Yeah. It's extremely true. Yeah, I am not optimized as a human being for TikTok.

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[laughs] [sighs] Sometimes I think about making a lot more, like, small, casual videos. Mm-hmm.

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And maybe if TikTok gets a stay of execution I'll invest more in doing that, but, um, it, it's just, like, not the kind of videos that I'm really set up to do. Yeah. So, mm, yeah.

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Well, wait, so I, uh, this is actually a great time to talk about my favorite piece of your work that I, that I consumed in my research, which is your second most viewed YouTube video titled, "I Promise This Video- [laughs]...

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Is Only Nine Minutes Long," which is technically 59 minutes and 31 seconds long.

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[laughs] But around the, like, 9 minute and 30 second mark, after, after speaking for that whole time, you get up, and it's just a static shot- [laughs]... of your office without you in it.

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Uh, and I thought this was a great video, so I'll explain a little bit what it is. It's kind of about the creator meta.

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It's about algorithms, your relationship with them specifically as a creator, um, and broadly more other creators. And you, you state why you made it and why it has this confusing title, um, in the video.

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So at the time, hours long deep dive videos were becoming really popular on YouTube. This is, I think, March 2023, around March 22nd, 2023, that you publish it. Um, and all the more

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you were only really, like, I think half a year or so into your independence. Yeah. Um, and you needed to unlock monetization on your channel. You needed, I think you need 4,000 watch hours in a 365-day period.

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You were at about 2,000, and you, and you show this. You show the graph on the screen, and you ask your viewers, "Just, you know, finish watching this, and then-Leave it playing in an, in another tab. It'll be silent.

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Just help me out, help me get there. Uh, and it worked. So you got those public watch hours. It fucking worked. The video now has- Yeah... 113,000 views, and I checked Social Blade- [laughs]...

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the, um, social analytics app, and it tells me that you received, in the two weeks directly after posting that, 8.2000 new subscribers. So the video did everything you needed it to do- Yeah... and more. Yeah.

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Um, tell me more about how you arrived at making what is a very smart and compelling piece of, like, m- uh, meta-textual content- [laughs]... that also is very practical and pragmatic.

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Uh, well, I started with the practical and pragmatic because it, it, it... Because of how I want to make content... Let me, let me, I'm gonna pull back. Oh, please.

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So, uh, the game of content creation, and I, I think most, um, entertainment jobs, is kind of a matter of who can persevere- Mm-hmm...

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and who can, can hold out for, like, bigger and longer breaks because I, I think of what we perceive a lot of, um, success in these spaces is somebody going viral, and then suddenly they've got a million subscribers, right?

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Mm-hmm. And that, that is accurate, but what we don't see is the years of build-up to getting to the point where you can be viral and being able to take advantage of that vi- virality when it happens.

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So the game of content creation is one about perseverance, and it's about sticking through when you are really sad or just [laughs] don't wanna do it anymore or don't like what you're doing or am not finding any success.

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And a thing that I have noticed amongst a lot of my friends who are professional content creators is that they burn out, but they burn themselves out because they are on that grind, you know?

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They're making a video a day for TikTok, or they're, they're pumping out content with very little thought and it, just to get it out into the world.

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Or e- even when they're pacing themselves, like, they don't take breaks, you know? They don't go on vacation. They don't give themselves time and space to recuperate from the work.

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And even though it's work that you control, it's still work, and you still need to take breaks. Well, let me g- let me interject for a second.

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This reminds me of something I've heard, like, startup founders say, where it's like, "I'm spending too much time working in the business, and I need to be spending more time working on the business." Yeah.

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And I think that's applicable here, where it's like if you're just stuck in the grind of making that video every day, you're not gonna have the time to, like, be strategic and plan and think about your longer term goals and, like, how you, how you actually reach 100,000 subscribers or whatever it is, right?

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Yeah. So the, the theory of content creation when I started freelancing was that... It was this. The TikTok algorithm has since shifted, but this is, this was very much the mindset, which is make 100 videos.

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One of 'em will go viral, and then you keep doing that until you have a sustainable life, right? Mm-hmm. This is, you have a sustainable career. Uh, and [laughs] I was just like, "I'm not gonna do that. I'll die.

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I will die- [laughs]... if I do that." And I, it's just, it's also just fundamentally not the sorts of things I want to do.

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I want to sit down and research and think about my video essays and be really thoughtful with the content that I'm producing, and so I don't want to...

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I mean, sometimes you sit down and a, and a video essay just comes out, and it's all s- it's quick, fast turnaround, and that's lovely when that happens. [laughs] But the nature of the work that I do is, is not that.

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Yeah. It, it is, it is thoughtful, and it takes a month or two months to, to get a whole video done.

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And those videos, the, the other side of this is that, yes, it, it's still the case where it's, like, hour-long YouTube videos f- are favored by the algorithm- A little more... and I talk about this.

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Oh, significantly more. [laughs] It is not a little amount. It is quite a lot. Um, and that's great for some people because, you know, their content is naturally long-form, right? Mm-hmm. Um, but it's not for me.

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It's like sometimes I will click on YouTube videos and I'll be like, "Oh, this is an interesting head or thumb. Let's see what's in it."

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And they will start so far from the story that they're actually telling because they have to pad out their video to be longer. Yeah. And that annoys me, and it doesn't annoy me with those content creators.

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It annoys me with the algorithm of YouTube- Mm-hmm... because the structure of YouTube is encouraging people to do that. The structure of TikTok was privileging people who posted multiple videos a week. Yeah.

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And so you have people who are changing the way they create their art and think about their labor because of how the algorithm on these platforms functions, and that's gonna be inevitable with any- Yeah...

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content creation, um- Shout out to Marshall McLuhan, The Medium is the Message. Shout out to Marshall McLuhan. [laughs] The Medium is the Message.

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It, it's, it's so inherent with these algorithms, and it's, it's one of those things where it's like I, I just don't think people realize it. I don't think- Mm-hmm...

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audiences realize the extent to which the ways that content creators make these videos is so dependent on the algorithm. Yeah.

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And the other part of that which comes out in the video is that content creators don't know how the algorithm functions. [laughs] That's...

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A- and you, you have all these people, uh, the, a core part of this video was superstition- Mm-hmm... and the superstitions that content creators bring to their videos and how, how really difficult it is to fight those.

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But it's also, it, it's, it's this two-sided sword, which is that if you have a post go viral,

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you want to moni- you want to jump on that and understand why it goes viral because that's how you will continue to build your audience.

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But it's also impossible to know why some things go viral, um, except if you understand that the algorithm of YouTube privileges hour-long videos, then you can force it to go viral- Yeah... by making an hour-long video.

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Well, well, with yours too, with yours too, let's say, I mean, we can- Yeah... talk about thumbnails and titles for a second maybe and how that's such an important thing to the YouTube ecosystem.

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With yours, part of, part of the appeal here is that-If the title is, "I promise this video is only nine minutes long"- [laughs] Yeah...

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but you can clearly see that it's a 59-minute video, and so it's like, "What's going on here?" Yeah. "I gotta check this out," right? Yeah. Yes. Um, I, so I, I wanted to ask, though, like if you,

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because the algorithmic bit is like, you know, is, is an enemy of y- of yours, and, and every creator, right? It's the, the love/hate, often more hate, um- Mm-hmm...

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how do you think, d- how, I don't know if it's, if the question is how do you think, or to what extent are you thinking about these titles and thumbnails, or is it that, is that like a chore, you don't like that part?

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Tell me about that. I, I, you know, it, it's fun in its own way, 'cause it is like a form of creativity to be- Yeah... thinking about, like, okay, what's gonna convince people to click through on this?

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What's- Within very specific creative limits. Yeah. Oh, yeah, which is, I think, sometimes very beneficial- Mm-hmm... to creativity. Agreed.

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Um, it, it's, it's sometimes I will go into a video knowing obviously, clearly what the thumb and what the head has got to be.

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Um, I've, I've n- published a second video recently, Nintendo's Swimsuit Problem, which is sort of a follow-up to a video I did last year that did very well, Nintendo's Animation Problem. Mm.

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I've got another Nintendo's Blank Problem in the work for hopefully this summer we'll see. And this is your best performing video ever. I think it's currently- Yeah... sitting at 187,000 views. Yes.

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Yeah, which is ex- ex- exhilarating. [laughs] Yeah.

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It, it's really, it's really great to see, again, because, like, I did this video the way that I wanted to do it, not the way that I thought would most succeed on YouTube's algorithm. Yeah.

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So to, to get that and get that success is just really vindicating. [laughs] Yeah. Well, so, the, I wanna quote something you do say, uh, last thing about that, about that nine-minute video. Um- Yeah...

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you point out that, yeah, YouTube creators will make videos based on what they think that perform.

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I quote here, "They're more interested in making videos on the topics," uh, uh, "You are more interested in making videos on the topics you're interested in, and then figuring out the SEO later, which is a bad strategy."

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So, end quote. Yeah. [laughs] Actually.

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But then shortly, shortly later you say, "I would rather fail as a content creator producing work that I'm proud of and that I stand behind than totally, than submitting totally to the whims of the algorithm.

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Of course, I would rather succeed at what I'm doing." [laughs] And then you plug your Patreon. [laughs] That's fucking funny.

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[laughs] Um, but, but that being said, it's like, I think y- you clearly are, I mean, you know, you, you need to keep hitting these numbers c- consistently if you wanna make that ad revenue and th- for this to be sustainable still.

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You're not necessarily out of the, out of the water yet, or frying pan, whatever.

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[laughs] Um, but, like, it seems to me that you have a bit internalized those bits of algorithm thinking that you need to internalize, um, such that they're not really disrupting what you actually wanna create.

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I mean, it's, I mean, it's a balance, right? Because, like, I do still add keywords to my videos- Yeah... to get the SEO. Like, it, you can't fully ignore it.

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You can't fully divest yourself of the concern about the algorithm. Um, so I mean, it, and that's, I think that's true with any medium. Yeah.

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If you're painting with watercolor, you can't just be like, "I'm not gonna use water." [laughs] "I'm not gonna use any liquid." It's like you're, you are choosing to use a medium or use a platform.

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To a certain extent, you have to engage with the rules of that. But I, I think you also need to be aware of what those rules are and decide which ones you are willing to invest in and willing not to.

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Like, another thing I've, I've invested in recently is really beefing up my captions. Mm. My captions have always been functional, 'cause it, it's very important to have captions on your video- Mm-hmm...

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again, for accessibility reasons. But recently I've been, um, investing, uh, because I find captions to, doing captions very frustrating, so I'm like, "Okay, how can I, how can I find- Very time intensive... a way..."

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It's so time intensive. It's so fussy. Um, but it, it's really important, so I've, like, sat down and was like, "Okay, this is an important part of the medium that I do. How can I make this enjoyable for me?"

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And that's by, um, just, like, beefing 'em up and spending more time, like, making them really descriptive or finding ways of eating, adding jokes in the captions that add another layer. That aren't in the script itself.

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Yeah, yeah. Huh. Co- making commentary about my own reactions, so [laughs]- That's awesome...

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uh, yes, yeah, and just, like, finding, finding the, a fun, finding a way to make those things fun and enjoyable to me- Mm-hmm... um, without sacrificing my overall concern for how I wanna make videos. Yeah.

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So I wanna get back into the craft of it all here, but for a second, I wanna talk about money.

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Um, and you only have to say, you don't have to disclose your tax returns, whatever, you know, only say what you're comfortable saying.

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Um, but as I understand it, the way you make money right now is, uh, sounds like about half of it is contract work, um, YouTube AdSense, and Patreon. Are there other revenue streams that I don't know of?

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Well, livestreaming. Li- livestreaming, yeah. Yeah. On Twitch, yeah. Livestreaming is- And YouTube... a big part of it. Uh, I get a little bit of money from the podcast, but- Mm...

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not as much as you would think, so please support. Yes. Uh, [laughs] um, a little bit, yeah, from the podcast.

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Uh, a lot, yeah, I would s- I would s- well, this is the thing is, like, if you're doing, um, content creation or e- really any freelancing, you need to really diversify your income sources- Yeah...

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because at any moment, Papa Bezos can- [laughs]... put his foot on the neck of Twitch streamers and say- The Bezos kabosh. [laughs] Yes. Yeah, the old Bezos stomp, uh- Mm...

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can, and can say, you know, "I'm only giving you such and such a percentage of this now." Yeah.

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And because there's no union for Twitch streamers, there's no real way for us to, to organize and push back about it, which is such a fun thing about doing online content creation. Yes.

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Hey, if we, hey, content creators out there, we should unionize, talk to me. I, this is a topic I'm very interested in, actually. [laughs] The more I do this work, the more I think about

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the idea of a creator, like, you know, the, the terms we discussed earlier, but, like, that's almost irrelevant.

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Really what it is is it's just, like, a state of precar- non-employment precarity-Where you're actually generating revenue for platforms where YouTube, right, I think you get 55% of AdSense revenue and they get 45%.

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Am I correct? Uh, yeah, it's something like that. Okay. I haven't checked on what the current split is. Do you have any idea how much you made from that nine-minute, the so-called nine-minute video? Not...

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Less than you'd think [laughs]. Oh, yeah. Less than you'd think. Yeah. Um, I don't... Yeah, I don't remember offhand. I know from... No, I actually haven't checked the dat- the, the data points on- Mm-hmm...

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the most recent one either. Um, yeah. So one thing, though, you, you have on your Patreon, you do... You make the decision, which some people do, some people don't, to disclose how much your Patreon generates.

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Um, I looked last night. Um, well, at the moment there was 599. Maybe we're at 600 now, I don't know. [laughs] But it said 599 patrons, and you were making $1,323 per month there- Yeah...

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on Patreon, which is pretty solid. Um- Yeah... I guess I'm curious w- if it was a pretty conscious decision to make that transparent, and why you did. Oh, yeah, absolutely. Absolutely. Absolutely. Yeah.

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I, it, and, and I think Patreon recommends... I don't remember what page. Patreon makes a recommendation one way or the other- Mm-hmm... but I don't remember which. But yeah, I, I do think, like,

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I try, I often, uh, often, especially on livestreams, try to be very overt about, like, here's, here's how ads function. Mm-hmm. Here's how the backend looks for me as a streamer. Here's how ads r- revenue functions.

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Like- Yeah...

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all, all of this information is, I think, very, a- again, much like the nine-minute video, a lot of this information is so invisible to people who consume content, but is so important for people who make content.

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And so it, it, it's, I, there's absolutely no reason for me to not be explicit- Mm-hmm... about those sorts of things. It really only... I, like, hiding that information privileges the wrong sorts of people. I agree.

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Right? Yeah. And it's like, it's also, like, fundamentally at the end of the day, I, I'm, what... I've had friends use this term. I'm a working class content creator. Yes. It's like, I'm not MrBeast.

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I'm not making millions of dollars doing this. I would say I'm living a, an okay life [laughs]. Yeah. I make- Well, wait... a lot less than I did at Polygon. Yes.

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Question there, uh, how long or what would it take to, let's say, replace your salary at Polygon? What would you have to do?

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[laughs] Um, have you, like, kinda gamed this out in your head where it's like, "Oh, I would need X many YouTube subscribers, this many views per month.

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I would have to livestream this many, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah." Well- Have you gamed that out? No. That sounds miserable [laughs]. Not really your vibe. That sounds really unpleasant. No.

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I'm not trying to get back to where I was- Yes... at Polygon. Like, I'm not necessarily... It would be great to make that money again, but, like, uh, what's more important to me is autonomy [laughs]. Mm-hmm.

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Like, the, the value I place on being able to control my work and control my life is more valuable to me than the salary I would make working for a place like Polygon or any of these other platforms, because

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they're crazy. [laughs] Yeah. The things that you have, the things that you have to do when you work for bigger corporations like that is... It, it's, a lot of it's fine, but a lot of it is just absolutely soul-sucking.

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Mm-hmm. And because they, because they're, it's a larger scale, you have to s- you have to, like, really fight for, like, ad sponsorships- Yeah... which is just, like, a cornerstone of how those things, like, function.

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Like, that's how- Well, many of your videos over there, speaking of the scale, I was looking back, many of your videos that, that you, that you hosted, let alone ones that you didn't host, but, you know, contributed to as a writer, whatever, have, like, over a million views, millions of views even.

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Yeah. The scale is a different matter. Yeah, yeah. It's, it's... The, the views are higher, the power is higher, and all of that, but it comes at a cost. Yeah.

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Uh, and by the time, by the time I was ousted from Polygon, I was so- Ousted?... burnt out,

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so burnt out, and just, like, it has taken me a long time to recover from just everything, just everything. Not just with the work, but also just, like, New York and the pandemic- Yeah...

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and having to, to go through all of that. Like, I don't know, it's just a lot, and it, it's... The, the, the double-edged sword of freelancing is that I have full autonomy now, but I also have to ensure my own structure.

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Yeah. And at the end of the day- You also incur all the risk. Yeah, I incur all the risks. I have to ca- carry all of the cost as well. Hey, if you get health insurance through your job, be thankful.

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[laughs] It's so expensive. Yeah. [laughs] It's so expensive and it's so poor quality.

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Um, so it, it's things like that where it's like I make less money and I also have significantly higher costs, 'cause I also have to, like, I buy, uh, most of the games that I play. Yeah. Not most, I would say half.

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I think half the, half the games I play on stream or something- Mm-hmm... I, I purchase out of my own pocket, and stuff like that. It's a tax write-off to a certain extent, but, like, you still have to do it.

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You still have to pay for it, and, uh, you're still, like, losing that money off the top of all of it. Is there, is there anything that would...

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It sounds like you much prefer overall, um, the independent, like, contracting and creating lifestyle to the full-time employment lifestyle. Yeah. Is there any, like...

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Oh, were you, were you kinda shake- uh, were you shaking your head there a little bit? I mean, I'm- Tell, tell me more... I'm not adverse to a full-time gig, uh, and I respect people who are doing it.

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Uh, and I'm pro- I, it's not unlikely that I could return to that someday- Yeah... um, if I found the right position- Mm... and it, the work interested me.

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But, um, it's just, like, it's just, like, not where I'm at right now. [laughs] Yeah. Um,

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in your time there, I imagine besides, you know, financial upsides, um, I think probably one of the, one of the ro- one of the roses and thorns of working at a team like that is being part of a team, and, like, you having a writers' room and all this stuff.

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Mm-hmm. Um, tell me about that and, like, what you gained, what you learned from some of your colleagues there that you were, like, in the video production trenches with every day.

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[laughs] Um, tell me some of what you learned from that and what you miss about being part of a production team.Well, I miss, I miss, the thing I miss most is bouncing ideas off Mm-hmm...

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um, 'cause it, it is, it, it, it's undeniably helpful to have another person to talk to, to be like, "Hey, how does this, how does this thumbnail look? How does this headline look?" Yeah. "Is this an interesting hook?

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Um, does this joke work?" Uh, I think that's the thing I miss most, is like if I'm writing a script that I knew...

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Like when I was at Polygon, if I was writing a script, I would be like, "Okay, I've gotta make, I've got [laughs], I've gotta make my coworkers laugh." Like that- Yeah... is my goal. [laughs] The barometer.

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Yeah, and that made it a lot easier to like write jokes into scripts than it does to be like, "I've gotta make an anonymous person behind a computer laugh"- Mm... doing something."

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And it's like, it's just a, it's a lot, it's a lot more difficult to conceptualize. Um, it, it's also just like coming up with pitches for videos- Yeah... is quite difficult.

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Um, I mean, it's arguably the easiest part because you're writing yourself a big check that you then have to cash, [laughs] and that's the way harder part.

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But e- even coming up with an, an angle on something, sometimes you'll have a nugget, and you'll be like, "How do I turn this into a video? How do I turn this into an essay?"

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And being able to talk it over with other people who are in the industry and who are also really, really good at this, this sort of thing is just like invaluable. Yeah. And like I feel like they all taught me...

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I mean, all of them taught me so much about different aspects of the job. I mean, I think Clayton Ashley, who's one of the, one of the hosts at Polygon and also like o- one of our big video editors- Mm-hmm...

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is so good at finding the joke in the edit. And anytime I watch his videos, I'm like, "Damn, Clayton. I couldn't, I wouldn't even have thought of putting that joke there," or like- Mm...

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I wouldn't have even thought about cutting the footage in this way or adding this concept or, or this layer on top of the edit to make this joke pop out.

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It's just like I, nobody in the business is doing it as good as Clayton. [laughs] Yeah. I may be unbiased.

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Um, but it's things like that, and like Simone is so incredible at hosting, and she's so charismatic and so like open and, and has such like a, a v- a willingness to be a goofball and- Mm...

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vulnerable while still having so much dignity. I, a- and, and Pat, uh, Patrick obviously just like an incredible joke writer- Yeah...

243
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and so good at like doing all of the production aspects of, [laughs] of all the videos that we do, which is so difficult and so like hard to notice because it's so fundamental to how these videos are made.

244
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All these details, yeah. Yeah. Wait, I wanna- So I learned so much from all of them. Oh, yeah, I wanna talk about the hosting side for a bit.

245
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So I know you didn't host every video there, but you did host a number of them, and going back and watching some of those and then watching your current ones, um, and even speaking to you right now on, on live on the pod, uh, you're very good at speaking for video and at, for this kind of format.

246
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Like you're very clear with your words, your vocal control, you're kind of like you're signaling a joke or your pauses.

247
00:39:51.796 --> 00:40:02.026
Um, it's something that I, myself am con- constantly trying to practice and get better at 'cause I often, as I have already on this recording, wanna just like run away and start talking really fast and like, "Oh, this idea- [laughs]...

248
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what about that idea," and go on, and go on a tangent.

249
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Um, so I admire your control, uh, and I'm curious if you w- if you had done like kind of video hosting before Polygon or, um, how you started doing it, what makes a good video host, how you approach it. Hmm.

250
00:40:18.076 --> 00:40:26.816
Uh, no, I'm just charming. [laughs] Easy. [laughs] Was that a good... Was that a useful... [laughs] Was that helpful for the audience? I mean, to be honest though, that is a good answer. [laughs] That is a good answer.

251
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Like I think my joke is that if in as much as I, you know... Well, let, let the listeners say whether or not I'm a good host.

252
00:40:35.706 --> 00:40:42.106
[laughs] Um, but in as much as I am, I think it's because I'm the type of person who like at a party, I'll keep talking to you, and I'll keep asking- Hmm...

253
00:40:42.106 --> 00:40:51.706
you questions, and you're gonna walk away before I do 'cause- [laughs]... you'll be fed up with me 'cause I keep asking you questions, right? Yeah, that's a good stance to take as a, a podcaster video host. Yeah.

254
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It's like, "I'm gonna wear you out. I'm gonna defeat you-" Exactly. [laughs] "... in this combat, [laughs] in this interview battle." Which is why this is, I think this is a good episode, honestly.

255
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[laughs] Let's, let's get metatextual there for a second. But, um, but yeah, had you done that kind of thing before? Like in the, were in the instructional videos you were doing before Polygon, were you hosting them?

256
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Not really, but I did a lot of live workshops. Mm-hmm. Here, here's the truth is that I was a theater kid in high school, but I actually didn't...

257
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I, I did a little on stage stuff, but I did a lot of behind the scenes stuff. Yeah. Um, not because I didn't like the on-screen, on stage stuff, but I just found the repetition of theater a little mind-numbing. Mm-hmm.

258
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Um, so I really like... I, I mean, th- this is the, the long and short of it is that I take for granted that I've got good screen presence, and I think- Yeah...

259
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everybody has good screen presence 'cause if I can do it, surely everybody [laughs] can do it, and it's not that hard.

260
00:41:40.336 --> 00:41:46.016
But then sometimes I will like listen to a podcast or, or watch a show where I'm just like, "Oh, boy." This person doesn't have the juice.

261
00:41:46.636 --> 00:41:52.726
Yeah, they don't have the juice, and it's like no disrespect 'cause they're out, uh, people are like, they're still out there doing it, and there are- Yeah...

262
00:41:52.816 --> 00:42:03.526
other things to value about their work necess- like it's not all just about like your screen presence. Some people are a great writer. Some people are a great- Yeah... host. Some people are- Yeah... both. Yeah. You know?

263
00:42:03.526 --> 00:42:07.776
Boom. Yeah. [laughs] Boom. Um, [laughs] but- Oh, wait, wait. Um, quick thing, you said that you were a theater kid, which I think makes a lot of sense.

264
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I, when I interviewed Rachel Karten, who runs the excellent Link in Bio newsletter about social media, social media managers, I asked her, she interviews tons of social media managers, um, and I asked her if she had seen any common thread between them, if there was just one.

265
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Mm-hmm. [laughs] And she was like, "They all have improv comedy backgrounds, all the best ones."

266
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[laughs] Um, and, and I think, and then I, shortly after, I talked to somebody who like comes from an improv comedy background, and I mean, the, the answer's obvious. It's because it's about riffing and like- Mm...

267
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the yes and of it all and just like r- rolling with the punches and, um, this is like one of those internet aphorisms. I'm not sure where it came from, but like don't kill the part of yourself that's cringe.

268
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Kill the part of yourself that cringes. [laughs] It's all of a piece, right? It's all of like the being willing to commit to a bit and just like iterate and come up with the next idea and joke.

269
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Like I think that is core to... 'Cause internet content, right, one of the rules is like everything should educate-... entertain or inform. I always forget the last one. Oh. But something like that, which like- Yeah...

270
00:43:05.836 --> 00:43:17.446
you know, so it's all entertainment e- even if it's educational. Yeah. To some degree, it needs to be entertaining. Yes. Yeah, I was, I was, um, on this topic, I was watching some Zullie the Witch videos. Mm.

271
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Uh, I don't know if you're familiar with their work. No.

272
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Um, they, they're a, uh, Elden Ring FromSoft Dark Souls creator, and their, their videos are very striking, they're very beautifully edited, but there's no voiceover. Mm.

273
00:43:29.076 --> 00:43:35.296
There's no on-screen presence, so it's all, like, game footage, a lot of it, like, modded- Yeah... and then text on top of it.

274
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And they're just short little videos, and it's something like that where it's like this person, for whatever reason, didn't wanna be on screen, didn't wanna be visible or audible, and so they found a way to make their content in a way that plays to their strengths.

275
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And it, I think that is like the long and short of it is, like, you need to play to your strengths. Mm.

276
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So if you don't feel comfortable on screen or don't like doing it or just aren't very good at it and don't want to develop those skills, then find another way to, to do it.

277
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I think that's a perfectly legitimate through line. Mm-hmm. Um, and also, I, here's what, an- another weird little piece of this is that when I... I th- I've been thinking about this quite a lot recently. Let me start.

278
00:44:12.076 --> 00:44:22.066
Yeah. [laughs] Please. I worked at a library for a few years, and when I got a job at the library, I had to watch this weird instructional video from, like, the '90s, um, that was like,

279
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"Sometimes your patrons will come to you, and they'll be having a bad day, and they will yell at you." [laughs] "The flip side of this is you can never have a bad day.

280
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You always have to be cheerful and willing to help and, and welcoming and gentle. You're not allowed to have a bad day when you're behind the counter."

281
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And that is something that really struck with me, 'cause it's like, on the one hand, that's kinda fucked up, 'cause librarians [laughs] are people too, and if somebody yells at you, you can't...

282
00:44:50.086 --> 00:45:01.496
It's, I think it's un- unfair to be like, "You have to be gracious about it." Mm-hmm. Like, that's crazy to me. Anyway, did get yelled at quite a lot. Uh, I've, I never, I've never been yelled at or hit on more in a job.

283
00:45:01.506 --> 00:45:13.416
But taking that information forward, it's like i- if you're, if you're live streaming, you have to decide, like, am I gonna be kind of l- the live streamer who never has a bad day and is always just like, "Masking up.

284
00:45:13.596 --> 00:45:15.296
Wow, I'm here. Hey, gamers- [laughs]...

285
00:45:15.306 --> 00:45:24.496
let's do this" Or are you going to be somebody who is, like, willing to be vulnerable or willing to be open about like, "Hey, I'm really depressed right now," or that sort of thing. Yeah.

286
00:45:24.676 --> 00:45:47.436
Um, but it is like, it, that kind of mindset has been very helpful because, like, if you need to record a video because you have to put a video out, you need to, like, take aside all of those thoughts and doubts and worries and concerns and just let them sit on, on a countertop far away, and then you need to sit down and be like, "Wow, the only thing that matters right now is talking about Mario's nipples.

287
00:45:47.496 --> 00:45:58.296
Let's do it" Yeah. [laughs] Uh, and I, I think that is part of the skill is just, like, being able to turn that on and off. Com- compartmentalize. Yeah. Yeah. But that has its own dangers and risks.

288
00:45:58.436 --> 00:46:06.736
If you do it too much, then you've got like, you're bifurcating- Then you need therapy... the charming parts of yourself off from- [laughs]... your normal personality. Yeah. And that's not great either.

289
00:46:07.256 --> 00:46:18.696
Um, let's talk about podcasting for a bit. So two podcasts that you are- Yeah... involved with. One, um, you are a co-host of, it's been going since, I think, 2021, called, uh, Burnt Cookbook Party.

290
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It's kind of like the whole thing is a... I, I, I listened to part of an episode earlier, continuous narrative.

291
00:46:25.996 --> 00:46:33.116
I don't think it's like necessarily Dungeons and Dragons, but it's that kind of, like, role-playing game, right? Yeah. Where you're all voc- There's like a dungeon master, you're all vocalizing it.

292
00:46:33.616 --> 00:46:43.656
Um, and then you have been hosting Big Game Hunger since September 2023- Mm-hmm... which is a weekly podcast with a very riffy, improvy premise- [laughs]...

293
00:46:43.666 --> 00:46:52.066
um, where kind of collectively from your audience, as we've discussed, Patreon members can, can give you these prompts. You have a random genre, concept, and vibe. Mm-hmm.

294
00:46:52.066 --> 00:47:01.836
And you and the guest riff on those three things over the course of an hour, creating a concept of a video game. Um, I guess I wanna focus more on that one, um- Mm-hmm...

295
00:47:01.946 --> 00:47:07.936
because, because that one is wh- wh- wholly yours. Where did the idea come from? Why'd you start it? What do you like about doing it?

296
00:47:08.396 --> 00:47:16.376
[laughs] Well, uh, longtime Polygon, Po- Polygon fans will think that I took it from, um, Cool Games Inc.- Mm...

297
00:47:16.426 --> 00:47:27.306
which was a, a short-lived Polygon podcast, um, that had similar premise, like you were, you were riffing game concepts basically. Yeah. Um, but I actually stole it from, uh, M- Movie Stuck, which was [laughs]

298
00:47:27.876 --> 00:47:39.056
uh, a somewhat longer-running, um, movie pitch, um, podcast where the creators, who are all Hollywood, um, like, screenwriters trying to make it in the biz- Mm-hmm...

299
00:47:39.136 --> 00:47:43.396
um, and o- overlapping with the Dungeons and Daddies people for pe- Yeah... people who know that podcast.

300
00:47:43.796 --> 00:47:56.096
Um, but they would basically, they would have idea, core ideas, and they would riff out, like, what the script would look like based on that idea. Um, and I really, I really love that concept, and I really love...

301
00:47:56.976 --> 00:48:08.276
I like playing, and I like being creative. And I do think creativity is a skill and a muscle- Mm-hmm... and if you don't use it a lot, then it does atrophy.

302
00:48:08.396 --> 00:48:19.506
So, like, the more time you can spend just, like, riffing with somebody and coming up with ideas and not feeling pressured to, like, follow through on them, m- because, like, when you follow through on it, it suddenly becomes work.

303
00:48:19.616 --> 00:48:27.156
If you're just doing it- Yeah... for an hour and making a goofy game, that's play. Yeah. And so I wanted a podcast where I can play with people, and like, what does that look like?

304
00:48:27.176 --> 00:48:34.306
And it's like, I don't really have a lot of skill with screenplay writing, so that didn't really make sense. At, at the end of the day, what I like is games. Mm-hmm.

305
00:48:34.456 --> 00:48:45.856
And I, I wish games were willing to take more weird risks with their premise and the things that they do. So I was like, well, um, this is what I wanna do.

306
00:48:45.885 --> 00:48:56.856
I wanna spend time with other people in this industry, um, and I wanna make, uh, I wanna play with them in a creative space where we don't have to follow through on anything, and it has to be video game related.

307
00:48:56.896 --> 00:49:05.932
So I was like, well, this is, this is the idea. We'll get premises. Yeah. We'll, we'll riff on them for a while. We'll never make them, and that's beautiful.That's...

308
00:49:05.972 --> 00:49:15.772
No, I mean, I listened to, I listened to some snippets of a few yesterday, and it's really fun. Like, it's a great vibe. Um, you're really good at drawing the energy out of guests.

309
00:49:15.802 --> 00:49:26.352
I think, kinda like I was referring to earlier, you have a consistent energy across all your videos, on this podcast right now, et cetera, um, and I think you, you pull people into that really well as a host. Um,

310
00:49:27.352 --> 00:49:36.472
so one thing we talked briefly about, like almost an hour ago now, was- [laughs]... that you don't put the... Actually, right before we started recording, you turned on your, your good camera, as you said.

311
00:49:36.932 --> 00:49:42.862
Um, and I'd been wanting to ask about this, why you don't put the entire episodes of the podcast on YouTube. Mm.

312
00:49:42.872 --> 00:49:52.012
Because the reason I did that, at first when I started doing this podcast, I was like, "I don't need to do that. We'll have to get a camera, et cetera. It'll make, make it harder. Some guests won't wanna do it.

313
00:49:52.152 --> 00:49:56.612
Some guests will have terrible setups, and that'll make the podcast look ba-," all these things I was worrying about, right?

314
00:49:56.952 --> 00:50:06.092
But I understand that putting a podcast on YouTube is the best way to grow it because the YouTube algorithm, um, can serve it. One of the best way- Oh, you kind of cringed there- [laughs]... so we'll have to get that.

315
00:50:06.432 --> 00:50:16.472
But tell me- Who gives a fuck what the algorithm... Anyway, go on. No, no, no, no, no, no, that's it. [laughs] So tell me more, but also I'm curious why, um, you have chosen not to put it on YouTube. Yeah.

316
00:50:16.692 --> 00:50:22.162
I- it's so many reasons. I- it, I do sometimes think to myself, yeah, I really, I really should commit to doing it extra labor.

317
00:50:22.172 --> 00:50:29.892
Well, 'cause, like, sorry, I should say you do publish, like, a minute-long clip from every single episode. Yeah. Yeah, I'll fuck about for shorts. So you've got the video. Yeah. Yes. Yeah.

318
00:50:29.932 --> 00:50:40.982
And I use, actually we're in Riverside now. I use Riverside as well. Mm-hmm. Um, it, so there's a lot of, like, practical issues. One, not everybody I'm engaging with does podcasting content creation regularly. Yeah.

319
00:50:40.992 --> 00:50:49.482
Like, I- I've had quite a lot of people. I've had game devs on, I've had content creators, I've had journalists. Not all of them, and this is shocking to say, not all of them have webcams. Yeah.

320
00:50:49.512 --> 00:50:59.732
Or not all of them have, like, functional lighting setups. I have the exact same problem. So- Yeah... yeah. I mean, it's just inevitable. Not everybody's a content creator, and God bless people who are not.

321
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[laughs] Uh, [laughs] I don't wanna punish them. God save them.

322
00:51:03.022 --> 00:51:15.472
[laughs] So, like, there's practical aspects, and also sometimes, i- s- if the choice came down to I want to have you on, but you have to have your video on, I don't want people to have to make that choice. I agree.

323
00:51:15.752 --> 00:51:26.682
Yeah. Right? Like, it, I would rather somebody come on and feel confident and free and not be visible. And that's the other thing is, like, sometimes when you're visible, you become more self-conscious about it. Mm-hmm.

324
00:51:26.692 --> 00:51:33.361
Whereas, like, if you're just, if you're just thinking about your voice and how your voice is presenting, it's a lot more free and flexible. It's a limiting factor. Yeah. Yeah.

325
00:51:33.372 --> 00:51:46.062
Well, it's like what we were talking about earlier. Not everybody has trained themselves to kill the part of themself that cringes. [laughs] Yes. Yes. Um, and another aspect is that, like, I do edit the podcast. Mm-hmm.

326
00:51:46.102 --> 00:51:56.192
Um, not very much, but normally towards the end there's a segment where we come up with names for the podcast, uh, and the unedited portions of those are usually pretty excruciating.

327
00:51:56.212 --> 00:52:01.162
[laughs] Uh, so I don't know how I would put those up on YouTube- Yeah...

328
00:52:01.212 --> 00:52:12.232
without having to do qui- a considerable additional amount of work, which is exporting both the videos, importing them, um, cutting that up in a way that- Multiplies the amount of time you have to spend... significantly.

329
00:52:12.272 --> 00:52:15.301
Yeah. Hours, hours more time doing it. How much...

330
00:52:15.332 --> 00:52:27.712
Wait, real quick, how much time do you think you spend across all your content, your, your Jenna, like, not the contract stuff, but your contract, your creator endeavors, um, how much time do you think you spend per week on all of it?

331
00:52:27.892 --> 00:52:37.042
I don't, I don't wanna guess. Quite a lot. Quite a lot. Um, quite a lot. More than, more than your standard 40-hour workweek in- once you include the playing of the video games and the streaming of the video games.

332
00:52:37.152 --> 00:52:42.682
Co- comparable. Yeah. I would say comparable. Okay. Um, yeah, I'm not good about tracking my time.

333
00:52:42.921 --> 00:52:48.482
I, I, when I first started, I was like, "I'm gonna be really good about tracking my time so I know where I need to invest more and less time." Yeah.

334
00:52:48.482 --> 00:52:58.972
But then I started doing, and I was like, this is its own task that I- Uh-huh... don't wanna have to deal with, basically. Um, yeah, it, it, well, it also depends 'cause, like, um,

335
00:53:00.152 --> 00:53:07.332
if it's a week where Burn Cookbook Party, 'cause it's a biweekly show, so if it's a week it publishes, that's extra work there that's not there the previous week. Mm-hmm.

336
00:53:07.592 --> 00:53:21.391
Um, sometimes with, uh, Big Game Hunger, I will have, like, four recording episodes, four episode recordings in a week. Um, and then- That's a lot... I'll go a month without doing any, uh, which actually is ideal for me.

337
00:53:21.432 --> 00:53:27.532
I think batching 'em like that is, is preferable for how I, uh, do work. So it, it really then...

338
00:53:27.592 --> 00:53:35.832
If it, it's a day where I have, like, B-roll I need to edit or A-roll I need to edit for a video essay, I will almost always work, like, 10 hours those days. Yeah. Mm-hmm.

339
00:53:35.842 --> 00:53:48.372
Because you just get into it, and the flow state I experience editing videos is, like, it, it... Vi- video games wish they could get me in that flow state. Yeah. Um, so it, it really varies.

340
00:53:48.402 --> 00:53:59.952
And then some, I am trying to be better- Talk about a video game. Oh. Oh, God. [laughs] Oh. It's true. It's true. Um, more, more video games should be like video editing. [laughs] Please don't. Actually, please don't.

341
00:54:00.172 --> 00:54:11.102
[laughs] Like, a game I could never, ever play. Mm-hmm. Um, but yeah, I d- it's also weird 'cause, like, the live streaming, uh, doesn't always feel like work to me because I'm, like, playing video games. Yeah.

342
00:54:11.132 --> 00:54:23.372
Um, but it is work, and it is, like, this is taking time on my Sunday and my Tuesday evening. Um, so I try to compensate for that by, like, taking Wednesdays off. Is today Wednesday? Fuck. [laughs] It is. I'm sorry.

343
00:54:23.432 --> 00:54:36.542
That's my fault. [laughs] I usually try to work half days. Yeah. I usually try to take Wednesdays off and, and end up taking half days, which is, I, I think, a reasonable compromise. Yeah. Um, yeah.

344
00:54:36.572 --> 00:54:46.452
One, one, one more, one more question about the podcast, though. Um, the, Big Game Hunger is part of a podcast collective company called Multitude, which, which I like to see because I think more...

345
00:54:46.632 --> 00:54:54.032
We, we were talking a little bit earlier about unions and creator labor. I think more creators should be part of collectives- Mm-hmm... groups like this.

346
00:54:54.072 --> 00:55:08.572
I don't know the exact structure and how it works, um, but I, yeah, I just really think that this kind of, like, collective creators working in harmony is very important to the future of this ecosystem and of creative industries generally as, you know, under kind of platform capitalism.

347
00:55:08.912 --> 00:55:20.981
Um, tell me about your experience being part of Multitude and, like, what this does for you as a solo creator.Yeah. I mean, um, a big thing is that, like, I promo other shows, and other shows promo me. Yeah.

348
00:55:21.002 --> 00:55:30.282
So i- if you get pulled into one Multitude podcast, it's increasing the likelihood that you'll experiment with some of the other podcasts. Um, I think my show is kind of weird.

349
00:55:30.342 --> 00:55:42.462
A lot of the other shows are very, like, science focused- Mm-hmm... very, um, like, yeah, very, very, like, research heavy or, um, nonfiction heavy. Um, so I'm part of the...

350
00:55:42.562 --> 00:55:51.931
And then there's a couple, like, uh, they have their own actual play show, Join the Party, um, and then we've got my little show. But, uh, we are sort of like diversity hires in terms of- [laughs]...

351
00:55:51.942 --> 00:55:58.962
like what the, what the majority of the podcasts are. You're the human section. Yeah, kind of. Yeah. [laughs] We're the fiction section, yeah.

352
00:55:59.662 --> 00:56:11.222
Uh, but it is, it is helpful to have, like, um, them as contacts and, like, being able to pull them on for guests on my show and to be able to appear on their show as guests. So that's...

353
00:56:11.282 --> 00:56:24.642
I, I will say, and, and I'm certain you have thoughts on this too, is that finding guests, regular guests for reoccurring shows is extraordinarily difficult. Yeah. Has that been your experience? It's...

354
00:56:24.742 --> 00:56:38.942
I s- I, I, I mean, again, as like you were saying, it's hard to quantify a thing, but I think probably for every, for every booked guest on this show, just to get them on, I spend at minimum one hour, because it's looking for- Hm...

355
00:56:38.952 --> 00:56:48.672
people who, um, are... who, who I think fit, fit the general description, and then I'm looking for people who aren't too similar to people I've had on recently. Hm.

356
00:56:48.742 --> 00:56:58.742
Um, I'm, I have to do the pre-research to make sure that, like, they would fit. I, I try to figure out if, if I think they'd be a good podcast guest, if they're, you know, if they'll be a good, a good...

357
00:56:58.782 --> 00:57:08.772
if they'll be chatty. Um- Yeah... I have to, then I have to, like, compose a thoughtful email that has a little bit of, like, what I would talk to, to, of what I would talk to them about specifically. Yeah.

358
00:57:08.862 --> 00:57:17.902
Um, and then I have to hope I get a reply. [laughs] So it's probably at least an hour per booked guest. Yeah. Yeah. For me it's, it's not quite as intense.

359
00:57:18.182 --> 00:57:29.562
For me it's about, like, five minutes to send off, like, a DM being like, "Hey, come on my den- Yeah... dumb, dumb show." Like, five minutes to write that, and then 55 minutes to get up the energy to bother somebody.

360
00:57:30.422 --> 00:57:41.991
[laughs] 'Cause in my mind- I feel that... it's always like, "Hey, hey, come be on my show." [laughs] Like, I, it inevitably it does make me feel like, um, a pest sometimes. Uh- Hm...

361
00:57:42.022 --> 00:57:49.702
even though, uh, the response is universally people being like, "Yeah, I'd love to. Oh, my God, yeah." Yeah. That's so fun. It is fun. It is fun. It's low pressure.

362
00:57:49.822 --> 00:57:58.882
Like, the, again, the show is designed so that people can plop in, have done no preparation- Yeah... or research or anything, and just riff for an hour and disappear. This is also the case for you.

363
00:57:59.022 --> 00:58:08.942
You don't really have to have done any research. Yeah. Well- Yeah... I mean, I do, I do, I do some research. Well, yeah. I try to get people on the show that I think are gonna be, um, fun- Mm-hmm...

364
00:58:09.022 --> 00:58:20.532
or have an interesting angle. Yeah. Yes. Um, one of my, one of my reoccurring guests, Phil Salvador, I just had him on, and he's so... He's incredible, 'cause he's a, a, a video game archivist and historian. Rare job.

365
00:58:20.582 --> 00:58:23.742
And so... Yes. And he's incredible at what he does.

366
00:58:23.902 --> 00:58:34.582
Uh, he's part of the Video Game, uh, History Foundation, and he always brings such a mindful, um, approach to how are we gonna preserve this fake game that we aren't making.

367
00:58:34.662 --> 00:58:44.282
[laughs] And I'm just like, that is such a unique energy. And everybody alway- uh, depending on, like, what their job is and what their skills are, has such a different vibe that they're bringing to the show.

368
00:58:44.842 --> 00:58:54.842
Um, so I'm not quite doing as deep a dive as you clearly have. [laughs] Yeah. But, but- Well, uh, yeah. Then, I mean, the research, uh, that's the one hour to book a guest- [laughs]...

369
00:58:54.852 --> 00:59:04.122
then three hours I spent or so looking into your work, uh, after I booked you. [laughs] An incredible dedication to, to the work that you are doing. Lucky to get paid to do it.

370
00:59:04.342 --> 00:59:08.522
Um, okay- [laughs] Uh, uh, just a couple more questions. Yeah. One, kind of selfishly,

371
00:59:09.742 --> 00:59:17.882
I'm curious about the nuts and bolts of video essay craft, and I say this, uh, with the context that, one, I'm sure many of our listeners are curious about that.

372
00:59:17.962 --> 00:59:28.502
Two, I wanna start experimenting with making video essays for the Creator Spotlight- Ooh... channel later this year. Okay. Um, so, uh, I've never made a video essay. I love writing essays.

373
00:59:28.552 --> 00:59:39.752
That's my main skill I think I bring to the newsletter. Great. Um, but what do I need to know? What are the nuts and bolts, um- Mm-hmm... if I'm gonna start making YouTube video essays? Here's... I- Here's...

374
00:59:39.802 --> 00:59:42.622
If you are used to writing text essays- Mm-hmm...

375
00:59:42.682 --> 00:59:51.582
and you're trying to transfer that skill to video, here's the number one thing I would recommend, which is before you try to record, sit down and read your entire script out loud,

376
00:59:52.962 --> 00:59:57.622
and highlight the, the parts that you stumble over, the words that you trip up on- Mm-hmm...

377
00:59:57.702 --> 01:00:07.152
um, the sentences that are too fucking long, 'cause you wrote it as a script and then you have to read it out loud and you're like, "Oh, shit, I added too many commas in this bad boy." Yeah. I'm a big- Um-...

378
01:00:07.182 --> 01:00:18.692
big culprit, yeah. [laughs] Yeah, me too. Me too. And reading it out loud is such a good way of having to, like, grapple with the reality of a script, which is that it is a, a verbal product- Mm-hmm...

379
01:00:18.762 --> 01:00:28.202
that you are writing in a text format. Um, and you have to do some work to translate them. So for your particular skill set, that's what I would recommend.

380
01:00:28.322 --> 01:00:36.872
Um, the other thing I would recommend for video essays is think through what you want to have on screen before you record. Mm-hmm.

381
01:00:37.382 --> 01:00:42.942
Um, because unless you have, like, a teleprompter, which is pretty advanced, I don't have a teleprompter. Yeah. That's a pretty advanced piece of tech.

382
01:00:43.602 --> 01:00:55.532
Um, then you're gonna have to be thoughtful about what stuff you are saying to the camera- Yeah... barreling the camera, um, versus what stuff is gonna be B-roll or movie clips or, or article clips.

383
01:00:56.022 --> 01:01:02.162
Um, or if you wanna do like Zullie the Witch does, which is- Mm-hmm... no VO, no camera. Yes. Yeah. Like, you have to...

384
01:01:02.202 --> 01:01:12.282
It, it's, it's worth spending a little bit of time thinking through the aesthetic of a video before you commit to recording it. You have to But you're probably gonna fuck up a couple times. Yeah. I understand.

385
01:01:12.322 --> 01:01:13.442
Well, it's like- Oh, I won't store it. Well, maybe I will...

386
01:01:13.462 --> 01:01:23.542
it, it's like with, with an essay, um-With an essay, it's like I wanna, I wanna know the ideas I'm grappling with before I write an essay, but I shouldn't know the conclusion. The point is to create a new conclusion.

387
01:01:23.882 --> 01:01:31.502
Mm-hmm. Um, and so maybe that's how you write a- how I would write a script, but then when I'm translating it to video, it's like you do have to have the end product in mind.

388
01:01:31.562 --> 01:01:39.582
You do have to be working, like, "Oh, I want- I'm gonna have, like, an animation here. I'm gonna have a graphic here." Um- Yeah... you wanna kind of, you're working towards something.

389
01:01:39.682 --> 01:01:49.342
You're working, you're working backwards from something in a way, um, rather than working towards something- Yeah... which is, was, is how I write. Yeah. Yeah. I think that's a good way of describing it.

390
01:01:49.402 --> 01:01:53.402
What about- You just have to be more thoughtful about the end... is, is there any, like, particular, I don't know,

391
01:01:54.302 --> 01:02:02.232
s- specialty software, or do you just, like, write it in Word and then put it on the screen and talk into the camera? [laughs] Yeah. Yeah, 100%. Yeah. Yeah.

392
01:02:02.362 --> 01:02:11.442
I just write it in Google Docs, and then when it come, when it comes time to actually record, I make it very big on the screen. Mm-hmm. And then I, uh, I basically just go line by line.

393
01:02:11.502 --> 01:02:22.602
I, I usually have picked out ahead of time the stuff that I am gonna do straight to camera- Mm-hmm... so that I know, and then I will just, like, memorize it, do it, do the VO stuff, memorize it, do it.

394
01:02:22.702 --> 01:02:31.672
Um, but then I do often frequently curse myself in this way, where I will have a sentence that is, like, a paragraph, like, a big paragraph long. Yeah.

395
01:02:31.682 --> 01:02:44.062
And then I have to decide, like, am I gonna do close-ups to break this up? Am I just gonna try to do it to screen? I, I- Yeah... recently recorded a, [sighs] a video essay that'll be going live relatively soon.

396
01:02:44.122 --> 01:02:49.292
Actually, by the time this video, this is out- Yeah, two weeks at least... it should have already come out, yeah. Mm-hmm.

397
01:02:49.292 --> 01:03:00.582
Um, where I do just have an insanely long portion, uh, of, like, a probably, like, a minute, minute and a half of, of, uh, to the camera talking that I do- Yeah... and performing.

398
01:03:01.202 --> 01:03:14.822
Um, and so a- about once a script, I have a section like that that's just an absolute curse. But... How, how long does it take, uh, all, all in to make, like, a 10-minute video essay? Um, like, from writing to end?

399
01:03:14.942 --> 01:03:22.932
Yeah, yeah, yeah. From, from, like, ideation to it's published and you're not thinking about it anymore. One to two months. Um, but I know that's an ambiguous timeframe- Oh...

400
01:03:22.942 --> 01:03:29.742
because a lot of that is being eaten up on doing other podcasts and creator other- Yeah... other contract work. Well, I mean, that's the way it goes. Um, yeah.

401
01:03:29.882 --> 01:03:35.742
I, I would say the, by far, by far the most amount of time I spend is research writing. Mm-hmm.

402
01:03:36.222 --> 01:03:45.512
Um, and that's one of those things where it's like that is, that was much easier when I had a crew of people because I, if I hit a roadblock, I could just make them read it and tell me how to, [laughs] how to- Yeah...

403
01:03:45.512 --> 01:03:55.462
move past it. But I don't have that anymore. I have to do that for myself. So, um, probably research writing can easily take two to three weeks. What does h- what does research writing mean?

404
01:03:55.802 --> 01:04:04.931
Is it, like, you, you just going out and, like, writing 10 pages on all the stuff you learned about this topic, which then you'll take that and, like- Mm... t- take parts from it to write the actual script?

405
01:04:05.742 --> 01:04:15.622
Uh, I always start with a thesis. I know everybody learned that in high school. It turns out it really is the best way to write an essay. Um, so I start with a thesis, and sometimes that thesis is explicit.

406
01:04:15.722 --> 01:04:25.452
I, for, like, the Nintendo swimsuit problem, um, my thesis at the start was, "I'm gonna investigate how Nintendo designed swimsuits," and then it turned into some other things- Yeah...

407
01:04:25.482 --> 01:04:34.142
um, when I had an answer to that question. Watch the video, folks. Watch the video. Like and subscribe. Um, but it, i- yeah, usually I sit down with...

408
01:04:34.402 --> 01:04:40.702
Sometimes what I sit down with is, like, here's a really interesting news article that I would like to know the fuller context of.

409
01:04:41.002 --> 01:04:51.482
So it'll be, like, a new- a quick news hit about, like, um, one that I thought was really interesting is that Whoopi Goldberg recently, um, squashed her beef with Diablo, the Diablo devs. Oh my God. And I'm like, "What?"

410
01:04:51.682 --> 01:04:58.982
[laughs] I don't know if I'll do a video on that, but it's stuff like that where you see it and you're like, "I would love to know the decade-long history behind- Yes... whatever this is."

411
01:04:59.002 --> 01:05:07.711
Where it tells it to you, and you're like, "Tell me more," and you're like, "Oh, well, the viewer is gonna want... Also, also say that." Yeah. And I don't normally do just pure histories like that, so- Mm-hmm...

412
01:05:08.142 --> 01:05:19.082
and normally I get to the, I get to a point where I'm just like, "But what is, what broader cultural context do I have to say about the fact that Whoopi Goldberg was beefing with the Diablo devs or whatever like that?"

413
01:05:19.112 --> 01:05:21.382
Yeah. Like, what does this mean for us culturally?

414
01:05:21.902 --> 01:05:32.602
So, um, normally I will start with, like, a really core grabby concept, something that you can explain easily and straightforwardly in a, a short amount span of time, 'cause that's how you make videos for YouTube.

415
01:05:33.182 --> 01:05:42.382
And then, uh, once I've hooked people with that, I will trick them to learn more about our culture with [laughs] broader, broader points at the end of the video- Sugar for the pill?... where I wrap things up.

416
01:05:42.862 --> 01:05:53.222
Yeah, kinda yeah. Kinda. No, that's great. Yeah. [laughs] Um, okay. Speaking of wrapping things up, um, you have been, you left Polygon a little over two years ago. You've been doing this independent thing.

417
01:05:53.802 --> 01:06:02.522
What are you doing a little over two years from now? What is, what does this look like? How has this- Mm... evolved? Are you all in on Twitch or YouTube? Whatever.

418
01:06:02.562 --> 01:06:11.452
What, what, what would you like this to be that you're doing now in two years? Hmm. That's a great question. I mean, part of me is just like, "How long can I keep this going?"

419
01:06:11.712 --> 01:06:21.242
[laughs] And so my instinct is two years from now I'll still be keeping this going. Um, I mean, I would love to write more, and I am starting to write more- Mm-hmm...

420
01:06:21.302 --> 01:06:33.442
um, this year, b- both, like, more video essays for more outlets, but also just, like, more fiction. Yeah. More, like, pure fiction stuff, which is not really a part of my content creation scheme at the moment.

421
01:06:33.562 --> 01:06:47.552
Um, so- Well, it's the Jenna scheme, though. Yeah. Basically, yeah. Trying to think about, like, I- I've got a good career doing what I am doing now. How can I expand my skills? Mm-hmm.

422
01:06:47.602 --> 01:06:53.952
Like, how can I reach more and improve the stuff that I'm doing? 'Cause I, I do think it's worth

423
01:06:54.962 --> 01:07:04.302
sitting back on your heels sometimes and being like, "Okay, I just need to focus on getting good at the things that I am doing." But I do feel like I'm starting to hit a point where it's like I wanna start expanding.

424
01:07:04.702 --> 01:07:11.202
I wanna start- Mm-hmm... uh, doing more weird stuff, and, like, what does that mean and how do I do that? It's a good question.

425
01:07:11.222 --> 01:07:20.902
So two years from now, I think I'll be doing stuff that looks very similar to what I'm doing, but hopefully with a little bit more sauce- Yeah... on top. A little bit more spice. Well, we'll find that sauce this year.

426
01:07:21.102 --> 01:07:28.652
What, actually, last question, what about this year? Is there any, like, one thing that, one big goal this year, whether it's an ambitious video essay idea- Mm...

427
01:07:28.662 --> 01:07:40.454
whatever it is, one thing for 2025Uh, I-- this is sort of a 2026 thing, but I have to work on it this year. I want to write a book for Boss Fight Books. I don't know if you're familiar with them. I've not, no.

428
01:07:40.454 --> 01:07:48.234
They do very, very beautiful, very well-written and researched, um, nonfiction books on mostly, like, specific games.

429
01:07:48.293 --> 01:07:58.213
So, um, my friend Kelsey Lewin wrote an Animal Crossing book for them last year, and I read it through. Um, and it's incredible 'cause Kelsey's incredible. But I, I'm just like, "I would like to do that."

430
01:07:58.313 --> 01:08:07.873
But I- the one game I would like to do it on is Silent Hill 2, and they already have a Silent Hill 2 book. Oh, damn. So I have to think about, like, what I would want to write for them, and then pitch it basically.

431
01:08:08.053 --> 01:08:15.633
Well- So... [knocks on wood]... knock on wood. Yeah. I hope it happens. Um- Thank you. Thank you... thank you for coming on. Is there anything- Thank you for having me. Yeah, of course. Where, where do you wanna...

432
01:08:15.673 --> 01:08:26.333
Where should people go to find your work? Oh, man. Well, I mean, we've listed- we've talked about so much of it. [laughs] If you wanna fi- find my livestreams, that's, uh, twitch.tv/the_jenna.

433
01:08:26.613 --> 01:08:35.553
I also livestream on YouTube, but there's not a great way of sharing the link for that. Oh, yes. So, um, if you follow me on Bluesky, which is, uh, @thejenna, no underscore. No underscore. Just thejenna.

434
01:08:35.833 --> 01:08:46.073
Then I link to both of those. I also link to all my video essays there. I'm on YouTube. You can find me there. Um, I'm on TikTok maybe. [laughs] Wow. We'll see. We'll hold the dates there.

435
01:08:46.073 --> 01:08:53.873
It's too late for you to download it and follow me now- [laughs]... but if you're still on there, you can find me there. If you've time traveled. Um- Yeah. [laughs] Cool... I'm just everywhere. Just find me.

436
01:08:54.073 --> 01:08:59.253
Just find her, thejenna. She's there. Uh, this has been the Curator's Spotlight podcast. I will see you next week.

437
01:09:16.313 --> 01:09:16.553
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