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That's like a thing people are so bad at with improv. The funny thing happens when you lose. Yeah. You want to be losing a lot. You actually have some really great writing advice. Be an idiot. Be willing to look stupid.

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[laughs] Yeah, that's so funny because I feel like I was like a submarine underwater, like struggling [laughs] to- Ugh... to stay alive. I didn't think it was ever good. Classic artistic self-hate.

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And I've been thinking about it of like, you've gotta stop not liking yourself. [laughs] You're like, "Uh, nope. No can do." [laughs] I'm constantly dissatisfied. Why aren't more people subscribing?

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Don't become like a guy who sells courses. I hate that. Your homepage says there's over 15,000 subscribers. Mm-hmm. Who are these people, and where do they come from? Uh, they're, it's a weird mix.

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It seems like people who like weird, funny stuff. I don't know. Welcome back to the Creator Spotlight podcast.

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Today, we are speaking with Alex Dibrenco, a writer and comedian with a very popular Substack newsletter called Both Are True.

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He also holds the head of creative role at Sublime, which is a knowledge management app, and writes another great newsletter there. Uh, I have not really seen any other newsletters that look and sound quite like his.

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There's this great kind of raw comedy improv vibe going on. Um, so Alex, I wanna start with comedy.

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So in a post of yours from January 2023, you said that your thinking when you started the newsletter was, "What if I did standup but on Substack?" What does that mean? Yeah, I mean, well, yeah, thanks for having me.

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This is cool. I, I- Thanks for coming on... uh, I mean, that, I think that came out of standup has always been like my dream, you know? Mm-hmm. Like my lifelong first dream, sort of my like, my Moby-Dick or whatever.

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Yeah. Like my, my great thing. White whale. That like, yeah, that like I've never been able to do like I wanted. And during the pandemic, I like quit my job, and I was like, "I'm gonna do standup for real." Mm-hmm.

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Um, but it was also, it was during the pandemic. We had just had a little kid. Yeah. And I was like, doing open mics sucks. [laughs] Like really, really bad. Yeah. You know?

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And, and it's like- Can't feed your family with a, a f- a one drink ticket. No, no. And, and it's just the time. It's like you just have to be, you have to spend so much time- Mm-hmm... at these open mics.

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And I think like if were I a little younger, maybe it would've worked or whatever, but I didn't wanna do that. And Substack was just like, it seemed like something was happening, you know? And I was like- Mm-hmm...

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what if I did that? Or, or I, I think that my, my thought of like, eh, what if I do standup on Substack, I don't know if it came that early. Yeah. I think it might have a- just like kind of- Evolved to that...

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it, it, it seemed to be what was happening. And, and- [laughs]... what I was doing on there was just like kinda riffing with myself, you know? Yeah.

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As if I were on stage in front of an audience and sort of just imagining what they were saying back to me and kind of- Yeah... playing off of that. I think I saw somebody- 'Cause I've done a-...

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like was saying i- in like the comments on one of your posts that like they always read them out loud or something. Mm-hmm. Maybe somebody who did an interview with you saying that in the intro.

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They're like, "L- like Both Are True is a news- is the only newsletter that I- [laughs]... read out loud every issue" [laughs] Yeah. Which is crazy.

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Yeah, and people often say that like they can, uh, they hear my voice as they read it. Mm-hmm. Like, they hear me saying it. Yeah. Which is, I really like- Singular. Yeah, yeah. [laughs] Yeah. [laughs] Yeah.

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But wait- Which is pretty deranged, you know? Yeah. It's like a pretty- It's weird. Yeah. In, in a way that I love. Uh- Yeah... yeah.

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So, um, a little further back before we get, you know, deeper into things, you, I, the first post I found from you was in June 2019. Uh, it's very simple. It's titled Miranda July is Dope.

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Uh, I think you'd been- [laughs]... listening to Miranda July's story in like NPR and then The New Yorker or something. Mm-hmm. And you basically just, you basic- it's so short. You're like, "Yeah, this story is great.

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I, I stopped listening to it to write this post. Anyways, here are some quotes from it." Um, and then you made that post- [laughs]...

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and then like, then you post again for like a week straight six months later, right after you quit, I think it was this place Tugg you were working at. Mm-hmm. You'd been working at for like a decade.

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Um, and so I'm like, okay, he quits his job. He's like, "What about doing myself? I'm gonna, I'm gonna [laughs] write some posts." Mm-hmm. Um, and then, th- but th- anyways, then there's like a y- so that was 2019.

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So then it's February 2022 that you really start, so two years later- Mm-hmm... that you kinda start in earnest. Don't wanna go there yet. Um- Mm-hmm... [laughs] tell me why did you like, what were you doing?

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W- had you been like journaling somewhere else? Had you blogged in the past? Like- [laughs]... why did you actually write these, you know- [laughs]... lone posts back in 2019?

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[laughs] Those, yeah, that's so funny because I feel like those p- it's like I was like a, a submarine underwater like struggling [laughs] to, to- Ugh...

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stay alive, like w- like really thrashing about down there, like- Yeah... trying to get myself, to give myself enough confidence to, to write something.

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And then like every so often I like came up for a second [laughs] and- Yeah... like the most amount of- You had barely enough ballast. Totally. Yeah. And then immediately like came back down.

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[laughs] I, 'cause I, I think I'd wanted to do this for a really long time. Yeah. And I've, I've fought like self-hate and self-worth, low self-worth issues of just like it's not good enough, it's not, you know.

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And- When you say do this, when you say do this, do you mean like do some kind of creative thing with an audience? I think I mean write a blog, honestly. Okay. I think I've wanted to, I've loved reading blogs.

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I've loved- Mm-hmm... being on the internet in that way for a really long time. Yeah. And I think I've always wanted to be a part of that, you know? Yes. Um, yeah. I think it's that. No, I, I really relate to that.

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That, I, I mean, I feel like I spent years of my life not really part- between like when I was, uh, on RuneScape forums when I was in sixth grade- [laughs] Dude, totally...

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to like after college, I, I j- I wasn't really much of an internet participant. Um, okay. W- where, w- were you calling it Both Are True, or was it just like Alex's Blog back then? Where did that name come from?

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Well, I, I had a thing before Both Are True that I was doing for a little bit called Goofing With Friends. Mm-hmm.

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'Cause at some point I was like, "That's all I wanna do in my life is goof with friends" And so I was like, "I'm gonna call it that." Yeah. And then that didn't, you know, that just kind of faded or whatever.

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Both Are True, the reason I call it that is like-Whenever I'm on acid, I kind of come to the realization that both things are true. Yeah. And it's always, like, deeply profound that like- Mm-hmm...

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you know, that like, the, we spend so much time, like, debating over whether one thing is or the other thing is, and it's just like, "Dude, it's both." It's always both. Yeah. You know?

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And, and, like, and it's often also, like, the end of a therapy session is like, "Oh, right. No, both are true." Two things can be true at once. Yeah. [laughs] Like, we, you, the, oh.

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Y- so it's like, I don't know, I just love that phrase. And, um- Yeah... yeah, I just kinda went for it. I never thought that, like, people really dig the name in a way that I did not expect, but people really...

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And, and what's funny, too, is like- It's like a mantra... exactly. Exactly. And now whenever it comes up in conversation with friends or whoever, like, I have to be like, "Yeah, ring the bell, baby," you know?

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[laughs] Mm-hmm. Like, that's, that's my phrase. 'Cause it's like they immediately are like, "Oh, yeah, both are true," and then they have to like- Yeah... be like, "I'm so..."

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And I have to kind of also apologize that, like, I've kind of own, now I own that phrase. Oh, that's nice. No, don't apologize. You know, ra- ra- rake it in. Rake it in. That's true. That's true.

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I, I, I'd love a title like that. It reminds me, there's, um, this book I like. There's this artist, Robert Irwin, who- Mm...

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uh, I don't know if you're fam- familiar with him, he's like, works with light and space kinda thing, like '70s, '80s he really came up. Anyways, he's great.

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But there's this book about him called Seeing is Forgetting the Name of the Thing One Sees. Ooh. Uh, which I just love that. God damn. And it's like a mant- one of those kinda mantra phrases that I- Mm-hmm...

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often think about. Mm-hmm. Um, so- That's really good... so, so you got one of those now. Yeah, right? I, another one of that- It's good... that just came to my mind- Uh-huh...

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of those is, um, David Foster Wallace's, I think he said it, and then it became the book- Consider the Lobster? Well, no. [laughs] Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. The chicken.

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I'm just, I'm always saying that cons- [laughs] No, it's, um, although, of course, you end up becoming yourself. Mm. That's good. Which I like. That I like. That just kinda plays in my head a lot, you know? Yeah.

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It's like, it's just so beautiful, you know? Mm-hmm. Um. No, that's really good. Um- Yeah... okay. Uh, uh, let's talk about your writing style for a bit. Yes.

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Uh, I, I know you've talked about a bit, a bit, talked about this a bit on other podcasts, too, so we might retread a bit, but it's- That's okay... it's still worth getting into.

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Um, so there's this post in January 2023 where you say, "I guess my North Star has been to just be as honest as I po- as I can possibly be without upsetting my parents."

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[laughs] Is that still, like, a good, like, one-liner summary of it? Um, I think I've ups- I, I think I'm, honestly- No, you've talked about-... the, like, the great, the new frontier is upsetting my parents. Yeah. Mm.

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Like, that's the new... Like, genuinely, like, the stuff I'm struggling with to write now is stuff I know they won't like. Mm. Um, and so yeah. What kind of... What, what won't they like about it?

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Um, it just deals with stuff that they don't really know about, you know? Yeah. Addiction stuff. Um,

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my ther- I mean, I, it's weirdly glib to say, 'cause it's actually very dark and I- hard to talk about, but my therapist committed suicide. Oh, God. Like, this therapist that I, like, loved.

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And that's, like, fucking crazy, you know? Like, that's- Yeah... the one thing a therapist is not supposed to do. [laughs] You know? Like, genuinely. Jesus. Damn.

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And, and I, and I lo- and, like, she was such an important... And I joke about it 'cause I, like, can't grieve it properly. Yeah. Like, it really hurts to genuinely think about it.

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That, I mean, that's incredibly intense.

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And, and also very weird because it's, like, someone who you've, you're so close to, as soon as that thing, as that happens, they're like, it's like a business transactional relationship.

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You're not allowed to go to, like, a funeral. You're not allowed to, like- Yeah. It, it just, the wall comes up. So it's- Client-patient. Yeah. Exactly.

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It just gets very weird, and it's been very weird, and, you know, I, I'm trying to write about that, and it's really, really hard. Yeah. And so it's stuff like that that they don't know about.

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Um, that happened too with, like, Beautiful Disasters. I don't know if you read that one, but, like- That's, I, I've-... that stuff, like- Yeah... yeah, my- That was the most popular one, right? Yeah, yeah.

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Which is crazy, 'cause it's also, like, my longest one. It's like 45- Yeah... minutes or whatever, but- I, I, I-... my mom still doesn't know about-... took the word count. It's 7,000 words. Yeah, yeah. Just under. Yeah.

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It's, yeah. Like, my mom still doesn't know about that one. My, I told my dad- Yeah... and, um, he was like, "Yeah, your mom can't find out about this." Yeah. So I hope she's not listening to this.

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I really doubt she will. Um. Yeah. Well, uh, uh, saying all this too, I think is like- Yeah, sorry... again, no, no, no, n- n- none to apologize.

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I think this is, like, a really good example of, like, what your writing is, which it's like, it's really intimate. It's not quite like I stumbled upon your journal and picked it up and read it- Mm-hmm...

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because it, it is written to an audience, like, that's in there. Mm-hmm. Um, but it's like, it's the, it is kind of of that intimate journalistic quality. Journalistic, not as in journalism, but as in a journal.

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Um, but still reverent, like you're talking about these intense things- Mm-hmm... but in a way where it's like, you know, humor is, is the coping, et cetera. Mm-hmm.

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Um, before, before you wrote this, you were saying you kinda always wanted to do blogging. Did you have, like, a personal pr- uh, writing practice before?

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Or was this more, like, the, like, short film stuff you were doing, that was the extent of it? No really, like, just for the written word of it all? It was honestly mostly, um... It varied.

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I, I think I was, I always had, like, an outlet of some- Mm-hmm... of some sort. For a while it was like, yeah, film. Short film. M- my series, Distance, that I did. Yeah. Then, like, it was Twitter comedy videos.

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It was a lot of, like, sketch comedy videos. There was always, like, a lot of ideas, and, like, some avenue to express them- Yeah... wherever that felt right at the time or whatever. Um,

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yeah, that was, that was always true. But, but this, this definitely was the first time where I was like, "I'm just gonna write about me," you know? Yeah.

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And not really, like, have too much of a, um, like, performative thing to it. Or, or if it is- Yeah... it's, like, still me, rather than, like, "Here's a funny idea about," like, uh, you know.

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It's consistent at least, not just, like, one-off performatively. Exactly. Yeah. Exactly. Has it- Yeah...

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so five years, uh, three years of doing it in earnest, five years of, like, doing it on and off, um, uh, do you think your style or voice has, like, sharpened in a way that's noticeable to you?Definitely.

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I mean, yeah, I, I feel... I think that first year, even when I started writing regularly- Mm-hmm... I was still thrashing about.

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You know, I was very, like, I didn't think it was ever good, and I think I've gotten more confident, and people have-- they say that, you know? And, and people also say, like, I seem happier, which is cool. Um- Yeah.

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[laughs]... though I don't know. Like these, like lately I've, I've been in a kind of downturn. But, um, I, I, I think I've definitely...

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I've honestly gotten so comfortable with like the way I write that it's kind of like- Mm... gotten boring, and I don't mean that in a douchey way, but like in a...

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Like every essay kind of ends the same, which is, like, I sort of bring together elements that don't- Yeah... seem to be connected. It feels like an improv show ending. A bit of both are true. Yeah. Exactly. Exactly.

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Well, no, no. I, I relate to this a lot. This happens to me writing Creative Spotlight. The, like...

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What, kind of my mantra, I try to approach, and when I'm not, when I'm, when I'm not delivering on this I'm always, like, frustrated- Mm-hmm... which is like every other week- Mm-hmm...

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uh, is like consistent but not predictable- Yes... is kind of always my goal. Yes. Like I want it to be consistently good, but like I want there to be a different hook for the next newsletter.

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I want it to end in a different way. I don't wanna just tell the same story every time. Totally. It's hard. It almost feels like too easy or something- Mm-hmm...

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where I'm like, "Oh," like, "you guys are gonna like that again." It's that thing of like kinda hating your audience too- [laughs]... where it's like- Yeah... you know, like- You rubes. You sheep. Oh, you like this slop.

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Totally. Yeah. [laughs] That, that thing of like, you know, I wouldn't have any mem- be part of any club that would have me as a member. Yeah. Like that thing- Totally... of like... Mm-hmm. Which I'm, I'm working on.

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I'm working on all of it. I'm working on... Because the, the disdain I have for anybody else is, in- including my audience, is really like disdain I have toward myself. Yeah. You know? Mm-hmm.

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Like it's all, that's all it really is. Um- Classic, classic artistic self-hate situation. Man, I know. That's really... I was just with my, um, pa- w- my wife and- Mm...

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her, uh, parents, and [laughs] her mom was just like, "You gotta stop not liking yourself." [laughs] You're like, "Uh, nope, no can do." [laughs] Well, I w- I mean, I w- I really... I was...

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And I've been thinking about it of like I do play that character. You know? Yes. I play that up. You're doing it now. Yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah, exactly. And it's like maybe I don't always have to, but it's, it's, it...

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Comedically it's a shtick that works. Yeah. Um, but does it serve me as a person? I, I don't know. Yeah. You know? Potentially great monetarily, monetary ROI, terrible mental health ROI. Totally. [laughs] Um- Totally...

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let's talk about, let's talk about the improv stuff for a little bit. Yeah. Uh- Yeah, yeah, yeah... because I really... So first one thing, I, I interviewed Rachel Karten a few weeks ago- Uh-huh...

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who writes The Link in Bio newsletter. Really good. Um, and you know, so she, she writes about and interviews a ton of people who work in social media. Mm-hmm.

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And I asked her if she sees any particular commonalities between the people who are best at this, and she said all the best people who work in social media have a comedy or an improv background. Wow.

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Uh, why do you think that is? Um, I mean, I think you riff on... You're really good at coming up with ideas, at like supporting each other's ideas, like that sort of... Mm. And you understand comedy, you know?

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You un- like, the... It's not that there are rules and there are like... You just, like, your brain speaks in comedy, you know? Yeah. So you can- Memetic riffing... so... Yes. Exactly.

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And you, and you understand that language I think really well, and, and you can just come up with a lot of bad ideas, and you're not afraid to come up with bad ideas. Um- Yes... you know? Like I think,

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yeah, I, I, I, I've... So much of, like, is, the, of, of how I like write and think, it's just like I don't even have to think about it, but I'm writing comedically. Like there's a f- Yeah...

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I'm like, "Oh, this is like a nice setup, and that's gonna like weave into that, and then I can like kinda do a turnaround there." But I don't think any of that, but it's like I know- Yeah...

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how- Well, you've like trained yourself to- I do that-... over years... on stage... yeah. It's just like natural for me. Mm-hmm. So I think that's probably a big part of it.

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Well, so one thing there, there's a few, there's a few things I wrote down from your ar- I went through way too much of your archive last night by the way. I know. I, I love it. Yeah. Thank you. It was, it was a lot.

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Uh, yeah, no, it's, it's a lot. It was a lot. [laughs] It was a lot. Yeah. [laughs] Um- Still recovering. [laughs] It was really disorienting.

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I had to like do another couple hours of it this morning to like, "Well, okay, what did I miss?" [laughs] Um, but, no, so one thing that you wrote that I really liked, um, is, "Be an idiot.

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Be willing to look stupid," which- Yeah... um, I think is so important. Yeah, yeah, yeah. I mean, that's like a whole, um, genre of comedy is like idiot work- Yeah... or like, it's like clown work, idiot.

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Like there's like a thing in LA called like the Idiot Workshop, and- Mm-hmm... it's actually ver- I, I struggle with it 'cause you have to like... It's very physical. Yeah.

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I've done like classes and stuff with it where it's like- Oh, like physical clowning. Yeah. Yeah, clowning, but like they call it the Idiot Workshop- Yeah...

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where like you really are just supposed to be a dumbass, you know? Mm-hmm. In, in a way that's like very, um, not self-conscious. You know, you're just like... I, I, I don't know. I, I can send you some videos of it.

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Yeah. It's beautiful to watch people who are good at it. But- Well, I think two, two other things, two other things I wanna connect this to- Yeah. Yeah, yeah...

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is one, I don't know who said this, uh, but it's like one of these Internet isms that I'm always- Yeah... thinking. Like, uh, don't kill the part of yourself that cringes- Yes... that, that's cringe.

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Kill the part of yourself that cringes. Yes. But then also like, like I'm not, I'm not necessarily a sports... I watch a lot of soccer these days, but I never really played sports growing up.

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But I think like I've realized like that's also just such a like sports type of thing too, which is like, you know, you, you learn to accept failure and pick yourself up and do it again, uh- Mm-hmm...

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which I totally missed out not playing sports as a kid. [laughs] But now it's one of those things where I'm like, oh, like it's, it's all the same thing. Like you're just- Mm-hmm... you, you, you fail, you learn.

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You fail. Y- you know, you raise your hand in class and you ask a stupid question. Mm-hmm. You move on, et cetera. I don't know. I mean, that I think...

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And maybe this kinda answers the question about like why social media improv risers are good. It's like- Mm... that's what makes an improv show great, is- Yeah...

119
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it's when a mistake happens and how the performers react to it.That makes improv so good, you know? And like, because good improvisers, when something weird or dumb or bad happens that's like clearly a mistake- Yeah...

120
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they'll fold it into the show. Yes. Like, tha- and that will often be the best part of the show, you know?

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And, and b- and what they're actually telling you- 'Cause it's when you surprise yourself, consistent but not predictable. Exactly. Exactly.

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And, and what they're saying to the audience, especially in live, but, but in any of it is like- Mm-hmm... I'm okay with f- failing, which is- Yeah... which is really you saying to the audience, "You're safe.

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You're gonna... You're okay." Because the audience, like my wife says it all the time, she's like, "I'm so anxious watching improv-" Yeah... "because I don't wanna see them fuck up." You know?

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'Cause the risk is very high. But if we say, if the improviser says, "Hey, I'm okay with that. I'm, I'm good. You're good." Yeah. "We're g- we're okay." And then it's like, great, let's have a fucking blast. Safe bounds.

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You know? Yeah. Yes. Yes. So w- And I think- Another thing you said about, about the, uh, talking to the audience, um, again, I'll, I'll quote your newsletter, "Don't dumb shit down for your audience." Yeah.

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In improv, we were taught to play to the top of your intelligence. Mm-hmm. Which is like, I have a distinct memory of being in fifth grade and my teacher, I was like, I had written some assignment, whatever.

127
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My teacher was like, "Francis, you gotta remember that your audience is stupid. You have to assume your audience is stupid."

128
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[laughs] And I think that's like, you know, maybe useful for like a fifth grader, but I think so misguided. Like, you have to rid yourself of that for like more higher level mature writing, right? Totally. Totally.

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That's a UCB thing of like play to the top of your intelligence. It's like, don't... Yeah, don't dumb stuff down, and don't like slow down to explain anything. Yeah. Yeah.

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Like, like, and, and don't worry if people don't get your references. Like, often I would get notes from people on my stuff of like, "I don't get that reference." It's like, all right.

131
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If you're, if you're curious, you'll look it up, and if not, you'll keep going. Yeah. But it's like, but for the, like the 5% who get it, they're gonna be like, "Oh my God," you know? Mm-hmm.

132
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Um, and I think it's just a, it's a respect thing. It's like- Mm. Yeah... what it shows is like I really respect you. I respect you regardless of where you're at.

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Like, I'm just gonna talk to you as though you're like a cool friend, you know? Yeah. Um, as opposed to like somebody who I have to like sit down and be like, "Okay, and well, there's this concept, and you have to..."

134
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You know, like, it's like a- Like your two-year-old son. Yeah. It's like it's, it's, um, it's, it's d- diminutive or whatever. Yeah. It's like- Patronizing... treating them like they're lower than you, lower status. Mm.

135
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You know, which is also an improv thing, like status games or whatever. Oh, tell me about, tell me about that.

136
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Like you want to be lo- So status games are like every scene essentially is, has a status game, which is like- Yeah...

137
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someone's high status, someone's low status, and the high status person is like, you know, shitting on the low status person, and the low status person is kind of doing dumb things to try to get high status. Yeah.

138
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And it's like, but you have to like know your role, um, which is the same thing of like being willing to be stupid and also being willing to lose. Yes.

139
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That's like a thing people are so bad at with improv is like you don't wanna fight and win. Yeah. Like, the funny thing happens when you lose. Yeah. You want to be losing a lot, you know, 'cause that's funny.

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That's how you put on a show. You know? Exactly. Exactly. It w- Yeah... it's rough watching somebody try to win. Yeah. Like y- y- or like really wanna win, and then maybe win. It's like- Nobody likes a striver.

141
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That's, that's like drama or melodrama. Mm. But like comedy is like somebody trying and losing big [laughs] you know? Yeah. Um- So okay, so you're doing all this on Substack now. Yeah.

142
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You realize like a y- a year into writing In Earnest that this is kinda what you were doing. Um, now, you know, your audience has grown a bit. Uh, you're, you're more popular.

143
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Do you see anybody else kind of trying to do this? Like, has, have, have... Are there imitators, little, little Alexes? [laughs] Yeah, little, tiny little Alexes. [laughs] Um, not exactly.

144
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I mean, I think there's, there's people who tell me that they try to write like me- Mm... which is really nice, but it do- it never feels exactly...

145
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Sometimes I've read things, I'm like, oh yeah, that's like, you're doing a Both Are True thing. Yeah. But that's not co- common, and I don't, I don't think I... Yeah.

146
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I, it doesn't- It's kinda quite hard 'cause it's just you so baked into it. Yeah, exactly. I, I think I, I see people who are really good at their thing, their voice, um- Yeah... you know.

147
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That, I think that's what makes somebody great, period. Mm-hmm. You know? Is like when you're just like, yeah, this is that person. You just know. You just like feel it. Um- Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

148
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Let's, so let's talk about the audience for a bit. Yeah. So I, uh, right now your homepage says there's over 15,000 subscribers. That's right. Um, there's a bunch of other milestones.

149
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I, I stopped at them all when I was going through your archive. [laughs] Um, September, 2021, which you know, you've posted like a, a dozen or so posts by now. You weren't really putting much into it.

150
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You posted about quitting your job, and you said you had 27 subscribers. [laughs] Uh, about two years later, you're like, "And that's a lot." [laughs] Uh, you wrote that. Uh, two years later, January, 2023- [laughs]...

151
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you have been doing In Earnest for one year. You're at- Mm... 2,177. Um, now we're almost two years later, and you're like seven times that. Mm-hmm. So two questions. Mm-hmm.

152
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Who are these people, and where did they come from? [laughs] Um, who are these people? They're... It's a weird mix. Um, it seems like women like it more than men- Huh...

153
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on the whole, or at least they're more, um, active in the comments section- Yeah... which I think is great or, you know, whatever. Um, I, I... A lot of them come from Substack, you know? Yeah.

154
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I feel like a lot of it has come through Substack's organic network and, like, me being recommended by other people. Yeah.

155
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Um, I've tried to, like, name who they, they are as an audience, and I've never really been able to figure it out in that way that you're supposed to. Yeah.

156
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But it seems like people who l- are like, they like weird, funny stuff. I don't know. I, I, I'm not really good at, like, naming, naming the audience. I wish I could do it better.Um, but they seem to just really like

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what I'm doing. I don't know. That's a terrible answer, but- Well, they like your, they like your earnesty. No, no, I mean they like your earnesty, they like your, like, kind of y- your willingness...

158
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Everything we've been talking about, your willingness to lose, your willingness to put yourself out there, your willingness to, like, try again and try again, and, like, your willingness to, like, just put yourself...

159
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To be vulnerable, right? And I think that's- Yeah... what you do, is you- you're very vulnerable in all these things. Yeah. And I think a lot of them genuinely worry about me. [laughs] Yeah. You know?

160
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Like, I think, [laughs] I think like- They check up on you. They're like, "Oh, how's he doing? Let's make sure he's good"... if they, like, in the comments, they're like, "Alex, like, you, I'm, are you..."

161
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You know, like, they, it feels like they really care. Um- Yeah... which is, like, I think a function of me being that open and, you know, it's like, they, they just, they want me to be okay. [laughs] Yeah. You know?

162
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You're like this comic Dostoevsky character. [laughs] Yeah. Yeah, exactly. Exactly. Yeah. Yeah. Um, okay. Yeah. So how about paid subscribers? I will also just- Oh, go ahead. Let me say one more thing about that- Yeah...

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which is, like, I don't know how to speak of them in the aggregate, but I know a lot of them personally. That's very cool. Which is like, which, like, like, people...

164
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I, I like that my comments section feel like a party, you know? Yeah. And, like, and they really do. Th- Lately I haven't been able to respond. A bunch of them have, like, 140 comments or whatever. Totally.

165
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And, and I haven't been able to respond as much lately, which is kind of sad for me. But, like, they, it just...

166
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I, I think the best way I've been able to understand it is because I'm so vulnerable and honest, people feel like they can be too. Yeah. You create a safe space.

167
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And so they just kind of come in the, in the comments and they're just like, "Here's my weird shit" and then it's like, great, we're all hanging, talking about our weird stuff.

168
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Um, I think that's probably one of the most beautiful parts of it- Yeah... uh, that, that I've been able to, like, cultivate.

169
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Well, 'cause now it's been, like, for people who've been commenting on them for a couple of years. Totally. I call them bat heads. [laughs] There you go. You know? Like, both are true heads. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

170
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No, that's good. Yeah. Yeah. They're, they're bat shit crazy. Um- Exactly. [laughs] Let's look at, uh, paid, paid subs. So- Yes... uh, there is a post in September 2022. Mm-hmm. You have 767 subscribers at this point.

171
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[laughs] Mm-hmm. And you turned on paid three months before, three or four months before, and you've had 34 paid subscribers. You're not offering, like, any extra, you know, paywalled content, whatever.

172
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It's kinda just like, "Hey, I do this, you like it, why don't you support me?" Mm-hmm. Um, and then, you know, you keep going on. I could, I could keep listing times you posted about this.

173
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How's the, how's the paid subscription base looking these days? Man, it's, um, it's a bu- It, it's not a thing I, I'm happy about. Oh. [laughs] Which is it- Ugh. It's okay.

174
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I, actually, I think we might have just turned a corner. But for the last year- Mm-hmm... it's basically been pretty flat, at about, like, 350 paid. Yeah. Which, like, to that person that you're...

175
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to that Alex that had 77 or whatever, or, like, 30, like, that'd be fucking- Oh, when you had 27 people total, yeah. It'd be cr- all of this is crazy. Yeah. But, you know, your, your britches, they get bigger.

176
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And so, like, I- Yeah... I, I'm constantly dissatisfied in a way. And, and I'm just like, I, it, it feels like a p- a game that I need to, like, win, which is like, how do I get more people- Yeah... to subscribe?

177
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Why aren't more people subscribing? I, I view it as a, um, indictment of my own work. Like, oh, it's good, but it's not that good, you know? Yeah. I, I, like, I, I... Uh, and so it's b- it's b- it has been pretty flat.

178
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Um, a couple weeks ago, though, I started basically doing, like, reco- paid recommendation posts, which I'd been, like, really not wanting to do for a while, even though I always, like, store all that stuff, of, like, stuff that I find interesting.

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Yeah. Um, and then I did it, and that has, like, in the last two weeks, converted, like, 10 new people. Oh, wow. So it seems like there's something there. Um- Yeah.

180
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'Cause I feel like this is such a big kind of trope of, like, of the, of newsletterdom now. Mm-hmm. I don't know if you read Emily Sundberg's piece a few months back. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

181
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Yeah, A Machine in the Garden or whatever, which kind of talks about this. Man, that was a whole hot button thing.

182
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But saying, like, you know, it makes sense if, if you, like, if you just see somebody's recommendation post and you're like, "Why are, why is this paid?" It, like, might not make sense.

183
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But then when it's like, oh, this person posts all these essays, whatever, and this is just, like, you know, you, you, you support them and then you get, like, a little bit deeper, uh, look into, you know, who they are and what they're into.

184
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Um, and, like, it's a, you know, a little more of an intimate thing when you're already so invested in what they're doing. Exactly. Exactly.

185
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I think, uh, I think that's why it's working, is a lot of people are like, "I love him, and now this, like, I can, I can make it make sense," you know? Yeah.

186
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I think I've always struggled with how to make it make sense, you know, of, like, why people should pay, whether they should get anything, and I've tried so many different things.

187
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Nothing has ever, like, stuck in a long-term way. Yeah. Um, and hopefully maybe this will. I don't know. Do you pay for many newsletters yourself? I do. I do. Do you?

188
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Um- It's one of those things, I was talking to, I forget who I was talking to about this a few weeks ago. Um, it was Caitlin Dewey of Links I Would G Chat You If We Were Friends. Uh-huh, uh-huh.

189
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And I asked her the same question. And, uh, uh, you know, we were kinda talking about how there's this, like, your paid content budget that includes, like, oh, somebody's newsletter that you know- Mm-hmm...

190
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and, like, Paramount Plus [laughs]- Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm... and, like, you know, whatever newspaper you subscribe to. Like, all these things which... And it's like, like, for me, I'm constantly changing it.

191
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Like, I'm usually paying- Mm-hmm... for, like, a couple newsletters, but then it's like, I'm gonna unsubscribe to this one, now that one has to come in. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Um, and I, I maybe should feel guiltier about it.

192
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Uh, but I- Why? Well, you know, it's good to support people. It's good to, it's good to support people doing things you like. But, um- Yeah. Yeah... which actually, this is something I always like to ask people.

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How do you define the term, uh, creator in, like, the internet content sense? I, I really like, um, what Max Read wrote- Mm.... said about this- Yeah, he's great... um, recently, about, like, you're...

194
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It is, it's just, like, a, a personality-driven maker. Hmm. Basically. Where you're like- Yeah... you're making stuffAnd what's really most important is that it's you making it. Yeah.

195
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Um, and it could be writing, it could be video, it could be whatever, but it's like it has that singular point of view, and that's really what people come for is like- Yeah... the guy, you know, the person. Yeah. Um.

196
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That's a good definition. I think. No, that's a good one. The one, one I've been working with for a little while is, um...

197
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Like, this is as boiled down as I could get it, is somebody who's making content for the internet for an audience outside of people they know in real life. So, you know- Yes...

198
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if you're posting on Instagram t- on a private account for your friends and family, you're not a creator. If it's a public account- Mm-hmm...

199
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and you, like, are thinking about an audience beyond the 100 people you know- Mm-hmm... you're a creator.

200
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And then I think, like, then there's the other side of it, which is, like, the professionalization and trying to make money out of it. Um- Mm-hmm...

201
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I also like to talk about it in terms of, like, versus what is an influencer. Uh- Mm-hmm... but I find less fertile ground there. I feel like that, those lines have kind of blurred.

202
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Maybe they were more different seven years ago. [laughs] Kind of the same now. Yeah, I mean, the, the... I've, I've tried [laughs] I've tried to be an influencer. [laughs] Um, where I, like...

203
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I, I, I don't know if you read this one, but, like, you know that thing called the Light Phone, that, like, sort of lo-fi- Uh, I, I did. You emailed them. Okay. Yeah. Yeah, yeah.

204
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I emailed them, and I was like, "Hey," 'cause I write a lot about, like, AI being awful. You do, yeah. And I, I was like, "Hey, I write about this, and, like, maybe my audience would like your phone.

205
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Maybe would you wanna send me one?" And they were like, "Sure, yeah." Yeah. And so, you know, I, I got... I... And I wrote a review about it. You had 8,000 subscribers at the time. Yeah. I would call. Mm-hmm.

206
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Yeah, yeah, yeah. Exactly. And, and I did it again recently with this thing called the Daylight Computer. Do you know what that is? Oh. I, yeah, I'm interested- Yeah... you also interviewed the guy.

207
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I'm interested in this. How is it? Yeah, yeah. I, I got it. It's right here. Oh, there you go. It's badass. Yeah. It's really badass. Um, I'm delighted- Are you using it before bed? Like, like you're supposed to be.

208
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I use it before bed, and I, I sometimes use it, like, like just to, like, write out ideas. Mm. You know? If, if... So I don't have, like, the screens. Yeah. You know? And it just feels like a different experience.

209
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I wish I could do it more. Yeah. Which is part of what I want with, um, what I was talking about with Anjan, the founder. But- Yeah...

210
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um, I've also tried and failed, where, like, I reached out to this, like, baby carrier company. [laughs] And I was like, "Hey, what do you think? I could..." You know? And they were like, "No, we're good." [laughs] Yeah.

211
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Look, like, you write about parenthood a lot, you know. Exactly. It'd be great. That's what I said. I think they fucked up, honestly. Yeah.

212
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Um, well, okay, so I wanna talk about your professionalization and your, like- Mm-hmm... becoming a creator, influencer in earnest. Um, so- [laughs]... number one, have you...

213
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Are you familiar with the YouTuber musician Andrew Huang? No, I don't think so. No. Um, so I, I was not familiar with him until earlier this year when I interviewed him. I was looking up, like...

214
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S- when I started writing Creator Spotlight, I was like, has anybody, like, written any books on, like, creators, creator economy recently? And I found his. It was just about to come out.

215
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It's called Make Your Own Rules: Stories- Mm... and Hard-Earned Advice from a Creator in the Digital Age. And he's basically been on YouTube for a while. Um, he, like, has never had a real job.

216
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He's, like, he's, like, 40. When he was, like, when he was, like, 19 in college, he, like, started making money by selling his songwriting services on eBay. Mm.

217
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So he's been, like, doing the internet creative thing since before it was really, like, meant for that. Um- Mm-hmm... but anyways, the way... The book's good. I read it.

218
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It's written very much for an audience of, like, creative artist type people who aren't used to thinking about what they do in the, in a business way, who might be- Mm-hmm...

219
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struggling with the idea of selling out, et cetera. Um, and so when I'm going through your archive, I was thinking a bit about this.

220
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Not the idea of selling out, but just, like, I could see you starting to professionalize, and you're talking about welcome emails, and you're talking about, like- Mm-hmm... you know, you bring in this character Brad C.

221
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Inversion, Brad Conversion as a way of, like, sublimating your, like- [laughs]... distaste for talking about these kind of things. Yeah. Um, but by now, by the [laughs] time I get to, like- Mm...

222
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you know, the, the most recent post, you've kind of accepted it, and it's, like, a way of operating that you have kind of grown into. Mm. So I...

223
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Tell me about, like, this process of, like, accepting that this is something you wanted to do and you had to, like, find ways to operationalize and, you know, et cetera, et cetera, term, term, whatever. [laughs] Yeah.

224
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It's a really good question 'cause I feel like I kind of miss how much I was wrestling with it. Yeah. [laughs] You know? It's like it... 'Cause I think I was like...

225
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I think the thing that I, my, my, whatever the opposite of a gold star is. Or, or, like, a north star. Yeah. My south star- [laughs]... was, like, don't become a, like- Brother, you're losing your brain...

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don't become, like, an in- like, a guy who sells courses. Yeah. You know? Like, just don't... Like, I was just... I hate that, you know? Yeah. Or, like, a coach.

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But then I kind of- You don't wanna, you don't wanna run a mark- multi-level marketing scheme. Exactly. I wanna make fun of people who do that. Yeah. You know? 'Cause I think it's very funny be- Mm...

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that, like, it's all... Like, the internet largely is that, is people teaching other people how to do that. Um, you know? And, and, uh, a- and then but at the same time, it was like,

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how do I make money doing all this stuff, you know? Yes. And, and, like, the most that I've made on Substack through paid subscriptions is, like, 15 grand a year. Mm-hmm. Yeah.

230
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Which is, again, like, for that 27-subscriber guy, crazy. Crazy genuine. Like, that's not, like, a living wage if that's what you're doing. It's, but it's not- Yeah. How do you support a family on that? Yeah. You know?

231
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Yeah. And it's like... And so, um, yeah, I, I, I think I, like... I, I...

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At some point, when I didn't have a job either, I just basically started to be like, um, "I'll, I'll, I'll help you with your writing" in, in- Yeah... both kind of like a

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w- help you, like, think about how you brand and market your, your newsletter and also, like, the writing itself. Mm-hmm. Which I enjoy more, but people want more of the other one. Um- They all want to grow.

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And I started... Yeah. Yeah, exactly. They want that growth, baby. And, uh, and so I, I, like, did a few clients for free to get- Mm-hmm...

235
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um, testimonials, and then I started, like, getting clients, and then I got more, and, like, it really, it picked up, and it was going really well andUm, and then Sadie from Sublime kind of asked me, like, "Hey, would you wanna do what you do with Both Are True at our company, Sublime?"

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It's like- Yeah. We've been doing this newsletter, why don't you take it over? Exactly, yeah. And so... And that was, like, full time, and I really like what they're doing, I really like her, so I, I decided to do that.

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That was, like, literally almost a year ago. Yeah. Or a little less than a year ago. Your first issue was February this year, right? Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, yeah. Um, and so

238
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yeah, I've been doing that and I've turn- I've kinda had to tone down the, like, you know, client work or whatever. Client. But these are your three ways of, like, making a living, is you do all three of these? Yeah.

239
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What, what, what... Like, Substack- Substack... clients, and then- And then- Sublime... Sublime. Yeah, yeah. Yeah, exactly. Exactly. Mm-hmm. Um- I was... Yeah, I was curious if, if Sublime was full time.

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So you do the newsletter. Your title's head of creative. What all do you do there? It's, it's... It changes by the day, man. I, like, I think the Subst- Classic startup, many hats. Yeah, exactly. It's like a...

241
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It's, it's three people and then, uh, a few engineers is the company. Mm-hmm. It's very small. I think we just sort of, uh, like, reoriented my role for next year. It's gonna be a lot of, like, partnerships. Mm.

242
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Which means, like, working with cool creative people- Yeah... um, and having them share Sublime with their worlds, you know? Yeah. Mm-hmm.

243
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Um, so it'll be a little less, like, Substack-y, um, which honestly could be cool. I, I think that Substack is, like, very Sadie specific. I think they want her- Yeah... more than they want me, you know?

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I- in a way that's, like, I understand. Um, so we'll see. But, but it's really fun. I think that what they're doing is, like, genuinely very cool. Um- Yeah...

245
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you know, this, like, tool for collecting cool shit online and seeing what other people are collecting, it's like- It's a knowledge management app.

246
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It's kinda like a Pinterest or an Arena, but, like, in its own very specific- Exactly... kind of erudite way, right? Yeah, yeah. And it's cool.

247
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It's like that's a world I've always been fascinated by and, like, dabbled in with all- Yeah... of these tools. And so it's like it's fun to actually work in it. Um- Yeah. Wait, while we're on the topic- Yeah...

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of Sublime, um- Yeah... I really wanna talk about the book of interviews you just published. So it's called Whoa Volume One: Conversations to Make You Feel Human. Uh, and you talk to eight people.

249
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Uh, you, you made 100 physical copies. You can... It's... You can buy a digital version, podcast, et cetera. Um, it's a cool project. I kinda wanna do something like this with Curious Spotlight, honestly.

250
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Publish some- Yeah... publish some interviews. Uh, tell me... Uh, uh, actually, I wanted to read too the little description for it. Uh, as the world goes bite si- cue the, cue the trailer music. Yeah.

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Uh, as the world goes bite-sized, short form, full of platitudes and hot takes, we are drawn to deeper conversations, honest explorations, and more emphasis on the humanity of some of our favorite thinkers, creatives, builders, and technologists.

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Um, yeah. Uh, how did this d- project come about? Yeah. I... So w- a big part of my job at Sublime was to, to interview and talk to people. And it kinda broke- Yeah... into two categories.

253
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One was called How I Sublime, and that was like, show me how you use Sublime, you know? Mm-hmm. And, and I'll... And then we'll like... Basically it was, like, use- user stories, case studies or whatever. Yeah.

254
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And then the other one we called, like, the more the Sublime interviews- Mm-hmm... um, which are like, "Hey, let's just jam for a while," you know? And, and- Yeah... like, let me talk to people who I find inspiring.

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Mm-hmm. And so I did a bunch of those. And we didn't really know what the output was gonna be. Like, we didn't... We weren't sure. And then we had all of them, and we were like, what if we just...

256
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And they, and Sublime had made a zine last year. Yes. So this wasn't their first rodeo in the zine world. And they were like, "Let's just make a zine."

257
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And so we did, and we, like, turned these long, you know, hour to two hour long conversations into these, like, five to seven, eight page, um- Yeah... interviews. And, and, and I, and I guess what...

258
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So what, what happened as I was doing the interviews was, like, the same topics kept coming up. Um, I basically, like, with all of them, I was asking what I was genuinely struggling with, and still am- Yeah...

259
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which is, like, how do you remain hopeful and optimistic in a world that's, like, very dark, and cynical, and pessimistic? Yeah. Um, and, and it was just getting, like, their takes on that, you know?

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And, and it was really mind-blowing, honestly. Um, kind of all of the cool shit. What are, what are some of the, like, two or three, I don't know, memorable moments? Not...

261
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Doesn't have to be a full interview, but, like, some w- word or answer that's really stuck with you. Yeah, yeah. I, I think one in particular is Adam Mastroianni. He writes experimental history. Mm-hmm.

262
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Um, and he's, he's, like, one of the first people that, like, recommended my newsletter to his audience- Oh, nice... which is huge and has helped a ton. And he was... I... He basically was like

263
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the globalization of, of all problems keeps us all unhappy in a way that makes no sense. Mm. And, like, just stick...

264
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Like, find one thing that y- like, find your thing that you wanna be really good at, do it really well, but, like, don't try to do everything, because you can't. And it's- Yeah...

265
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it's making you miserable thinking that you can. And I thought that that was just, like, really, yeah, like, beautiful. Um, and then, and then another was with Anjan, the founder of, uh- Yeah... of Daylight- Yeah...

266
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where we talked a lot. That was, like, probably the one I got most emotional in. I, like, started crying at the beginning of it, 'cause he talked so much about, like, his parents and- Yeah...

267
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the struggles of depression and, and, and, and he talks about forgiving his parents. Mm. Um, and, and I just think that that's really powerful, and it's not something I've...

268
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It's not a framing I've ever thought about, that, like, you need to do that when there's not been any, like... They didn't wrong me in any kind of, like, specific way. Yeah.

269
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But, like, of course they're not gonna do exactly what you need. How could they- Of course they've shaped the banks of the river that is your life a little bit. Totally. Yeah. Mm-hmm. Totally.

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Like, even I see with my kids, like, he need, my son needs so much, and I can't always... I don't come close to, like, delivering- Yeah... 100% of the goods, you know? And that, that...

271
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the gap is, like, that's where humanity is, you know?

272
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But, like-But, but there's like a deep pain in that lack of fulfillment Yeah And, and I think I'm just trying to sit with that and, and sit with like what that would feel like to, to forgive them, you know? Yeah.

273
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While also not making them the bad guy. That's the like- Yeah... that's the both are true Forgiveness doesn't require... Yeah, both are tr- both are- Yeah... both are true. Ring, ring the bell, baby. Yeah.

274
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[laughs] Dig- Okay, something, I wanna go back to the other one, uh, don't make every problem your own. Yeah.

275
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This reminded me of another thing about being a creator, going back to like what's the definition of a creator thing, I think, which is that like a creator, once you get to the point of like trying to make a living doing it, it's like it is a many hat situation.

276
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You, you basically become like the founder of a media business and you have to- Mm-hmm... think, "Okay, what's my content production flow? What's my schedule? How am I gonna make money? Oh, I gotta go negotiate deals.

277
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Like, how am I gonna structure my paid offering," et cetera. Um, so I think that is what a creator is too, is like, in- once it becomes an actual thing, you're a media business founder.

278
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Um, which maybe get your word on that. But also, I know that about a year ago you hired somebody, uh- Mm-hmm... Erin Chetren, I believe is- Mm-hmm... is the name- Mm-hmm... um, to help you out with this kinda thing.

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Like to- Mm-hmm... to take some of that burden. So tell me about the decision to hire that person, and like what, why you had to do it, and what they do. Yeah, I mean, I, I, I was, um,

280
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I was just like really flailing on the sort of organizational front of like- Yeah... I just had all these ideas, and I never w- you know, I would always just like write my post the day before or whatever and- Yeah...

281
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what I, what that meant was I was avoiding the hard posts. Yeah. You know? Mm. Um, because like you can always do the easy thing a day before.

282
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And I posted this like pretty bonkers, um, job post, uh, in like a both are true vibe- Yeah... um, in a few places, in a few Discords, like I think including Culture Studies Discord that I was a part of. Mm-hmm.

283
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And Erin's sister saw it- Yeah... and sent it to Erin, and then Erin sent me a, an email that was like the most both are true email. It was just like I loved this person, you know? Yeah. And I was like, "Oh, this is..."

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I was like, I felt like it was g- an honor to work with her. Um, and yeah, and we started working together, and so, and she, she hel- she, she's helped me with

285
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the, e- everything as small as like editing individual essays, but like thinking about what Both Are True is, what the paid offering is, how to communicate.

286
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She's just like, she's like a producer, like a creative producer. Yeah. Um, and she's amazing. I love her. Um, and- So you also, you have a- Yeah... you have a writing partner too, Rae Katz, I think.

287
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Uh, which is another thing about this, I think the whole creator thing is, it's so often this solitary thing and- Mm-hmm...

288
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you know, I, I always like it when I see people who are working with an editor or with like just with other people in any collaborative way because I think it's like people should work together in society and that's just a, like a baseline good.

289
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Um, but yeah, tell me about that, like h- th- this having a writing partner relationship and how that's different than having Erin there as a creative producer. Yeah.

290
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I, I think, um, well, Erin actually worked with, with Rae, with Rachel- Oh, okay... uh, who's like one of my best friends too, and I, I think- Yeah...

291
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the difference is like with Rachel, like we're just sort of like complaining to each other about everything. Yeah. [laughs] You know?

292
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Um, without really trying to problem solve, whereas with Erin, it's like I'm complaining and she solves the problem. Yeah, yeah.

293
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Um, you know, I, I think, uh- It's like that meme, do you just need somebody to listen or are you in the problem-solving stage yet? Exactly. Yeah. Exactly.

294
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And, and I think, um, but honestly with both I think the, the most important thing is what you said, it's like you're not alone. Yeah. Like this is all so lonely and so it's just like less fun that way, you know?

295
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Like, and, and I, there's another woman, Madeline, who also helps me with editing. Yes. Um, and, and like we're in a Slack together, and it's just like, it's fun.

296
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Like it's genuinely so much more fun to be in that kind of communal... It's not like a writing room at all, but it's like- Yeah... there's some little bit of that as opposed to just like me, you know, by myself.

297
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'Cause comedy doesn't work alone, right? Yeah. [laughs] Like you need, it n- it needs to bounce- You need other people to laugh. You need that, you know? And, and, or at least tell you that it doesn't suck, you know?

298
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Yeah. Like that's, that's often what I, when I send a draft I'll be like, "You guy- does this like really blow or no?" [laughs] Yeah. You know? And, and like often, they usually they're like, "No," you know? Yeah.

299
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And sometimes I believe them and sometimes I don't believe them. But, um, yeah. No, I, I like that. I, I basically do this alone. I mean, I've got- Mm... um, shout out Tom, he's, he'll be producing this- Shout out Tom...

300
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a good designer, et cetera. Big ups to Tom. Big ups to Tom. That's, yeah. He, he does, he does the hard work.

301
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Um, but no, but, uh, just to say, speaking about AI, I sometimes I'll use AI never as in a generative way, I don't like to do that, but like I'll put it in and be like, "Hey, I'm trying to get this piece, I'm trying to lose 300 words on this piece."

302
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Mm-hmm, mm-hmm. "Can you give me some suggestions on where to do it?"

303
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And like ideally, like it's just, I'm just doing that myself where it's like I write a full draft on Monday, on Tuesday I'm like editing, on Wednesday editing again, Thursday editing again.

304
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You know, giving yourself that time and space.

305
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But I will admit I did on the last issue, which I thought ended up being a really good issue, this was the first time I had really done this, this like, "Hey, AI, can you like, uh, tell me to, what, what I should cut?"

306
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And it, I w- I was doing no copy-pasting. I was doing, going back and reading being like, "Hmm, I think it's right. That actually is a good place to cut." Mm-hmm, mm-hmm. And I was, I was surprised.

307
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Dude, it's, I use it all the time. I'm not against using it. Yeah. I, I, it's getting scary, 'cause I ask it to, um, write in my voice, you know? Oh, yeah. And I don't tell it what that is. I haven't done that yet.

308
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I just go- I'm scared of that. You s- I, I was just like, "Write in Alex Dibrenco's w- Both Are True voice." Yeah. And it's a little haunting- Oh, God... like how, how good...

309
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It, it, it'll be good and then it'll totally slip, you know? Yeah. But like even the little bit of it I'm like, "Ooh, boy." You know? Yeah. It, it makes me feel really weird. Um-I don't know.

310
00:49:14.096 --> 00:49:20.376
I mean, we don't have to go so deep into A. Uh, how much time do you think you spend on your newsletter each... 'Cause you're not, I feel like it's not so consistent.

311
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There's not like expect, oh, expect this version of this, uh, every Thursday. Or like with Creative Spotlight, every Friday you're gonna get this interview. Yeah. Right?

312
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And that's like so on the dot, 11:11 every Fr- anyways, um- Mm-hmm... how much time do you spend doing it in as much as it's consistent? It, it... I mean, I try to post twice a week.

313
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Um, we just moved across the country and- Yeah... two little kids, so that's really been what's been, uh, making it a lot harder. Yeah.

314
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It really depends too, where like an es- sometimes I will write an essay like in one sitting in a couple hours. Hmm. And it will just be like, "That's it," you know? Yeah.

315
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And then I'll polish it or whatever, and then there are some essays that I spend months on. Yes. Um, and so it's just like, it really depends.

316
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I would say in, on average, an essay probably takes me like 10 hours, you know? Maybe more. Beautiful Disasters, the, which was like 7,000 words. Yeah. How long were you working on that? That took a long, long time.

317
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I mean, I was writing that in my head for years. Yeah. And then, and then like the actual writing, I wrote, I like pulled an all-nighter the night before publishing it.

318
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Like, I just like, I went really hard on that essay. Yeah. You know? In a way that like- As you should... I, I don't know. I w- I wanna do that again, um, you know, with, with stuff. It, that, that was really...

319
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It was a beautiful disaster, you know, writing it. [laughs] And, uh, and, and yeah, I'm really proud of that one. Like, I read that one, when I- Yeah...

320
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I read it recently and I'm just like, "Damn, this is actually really good," in a way that I, I don't usually feel with my stuff. Not that I don't like it- Yeah... but I'm just not like- No.

321
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You, you, you have your favorites. You- Yeah... you, you have your favorite children. Yeah, totally. Yeah. I do. I do. Uh-huh. I do. I like when it makes me laugh when I'm writing it too.

322
00:51:08.276 --> 00:51:19.436
If a- if it can make me laugh when I'm writing it, that's a great sign. Yeah. Um- One piece I wanna reference again, uh, it's from June 2022, a very joking piece.

323
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It's titled After 10 Years of Writing, Here's Everything I Know. Yeah. Yeah, yeah. Uh, and there's one thing in it, which is just- Yeah... one long paragraph.

324
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It's basically, uh, a written skit about don't buy a new Moleskine notebook, it won't make you write more. Yeah. And then you end up buying one. [laughs] Um, but then a little later,

325
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you, you know, a year or two later, you, you do have, you have this one, it's the 6,666 subscribers post. You actually have some really great writing advice. That's a really good post. I recommend anybody- Mm-hmm...

326
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listening go read that. Um, it's much less... It's still cynical, uh, but in a funny way.

327
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[laughs] But okay, I guess question is what I got from that like, here's the 10 ways of, you know, 10 things of writing, uh, what I got from that was like what I think is my core piece of advice, which is always just like you just sit down and do it.

328
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You write a thing by writing a thing. Mm-hmm. And like that's the only advice that matters. Mm-hmm. Um, I'm rambling on a bit. No, no. I guess my question is what...

329
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Do you actually have any writing advice that you would give in earnest now? Yeah, I think I do. I mean, I think the thing that like this is what always comes...

330
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This is sort of where all of my conversations with like people I work with- Yeah... come back to. And it... And I was like doing freelance editing for a while, and I, this is what I... Like, the thing that I- Yeah...

331
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found again and again was like, um, the thing that you are struggling with in your essay is what the essay is about. Yeah. You know? Like- That's the point of writing an essay, is to struggle with the thing. Yeah.

332
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And so w- wherever that block is, that is the essay. Like, figure out what's happening in that block. That's where the heat is. Like, because you're struggling with it, like that's a conflict.

333
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There's something happening there. Explore that, 'cause that's where- Yeah... the juice is, you know? Like in improv, that's, we call it heat. It's like- Mm... that's where the heat of the scene is, is like- Yeah...

334
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something isn't right here. Otherwise, you would've just cruised through it, you know? And, and we want to be in that, and people don't wanna do that. They wanna be like, "I have a problem.

335
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Let's fix it so I can get to the essay- Yeah... which is really about something else." Like, no, dude, the essay is that thing, you know? It's like I, I think that is...

336
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I need to like remember that myself, honestly, 'cause I f- it's really easy to forget. Um- Mm-hmm... but I think it's more, more often true than not.

337
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It's a great like just thing to remember if you're feeling lost, of like- Mm-hmm... yeah, what's, what's hard right now? Where's the, where's the difficult thing, and why might it be difficult? Um- Yeah.

338
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No, I think- Yeah... I, I'm, I'm, I'm a big believer that like the, the point of writing an essay or like any...

339
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or an opinion pie- whatever it is, anything that's not just like reporting straight fact, is like to write it, to struggle with it. You're not gonna have the conclusion...

340
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You shouldn't have the conclusion like pre-configured, otherwise maybe you're... that's like you're writing a political speech or whatever. Totally.

341
00:54:11.456 --> 00:54:23.296
Speech at a wedding where it's gonna end where you're like, "Oh," and, you know, to the, to the, to the bride and groom. But like the point- Mm... of an essay is to struggle with an idea. Totally. Totally. Yeah.

342
00:54:23.336 --> 00:54:30.386
Um, what's your relationship like with social media these days? I know we talked a little bit earlier about you making the comedy videos on Twitter. You still get- Mm-hmm...

343
00:54:30.386 --> 00:54:42.336
11,000 followers there, uh, but you also tweeted three weeks ago, "I wish I knew what to say on here," and it got- Mm-hmm... six likes. [laughs] But we connected on Twitter, so there's that. We did. We did. I, I, uh...

344
00:54:42.756 --> 00:54:54.216
The way you said it got six likes. [laughs] Got six likes. I mean, that, that, that really is, I... That was a real moment of honesty on there. I, I- Yeah... there, I had like a heyday on there.

345
00:54:54.246 --> 00:55:05.296
I was like part of- You did... comedy Twitter, and, you know, things were just... It was all cruising. I, I was like, it was like a manic- Well, RIP Twitter. It's X now, right? Yeah, exactly. Whatever. And, and like, uh,

346
00:55:06.576 --> 00:55:13.056
I, I, I feel, I think what holds me back from using it more, besides like the Musk of it all, is like- [laughs]...

347
00:55:13.156 --> 00:55:18.845
um, I, I-I'm confused why- For a second I thought you were talking about a smell, and then I remembered- Mm... what the actual... Anyways, sorry.

348
00:55:18.856 --> 00:55:30.576
[laughs] I think I don't, I, I feel weird that I'm not, like, as big on there as I used to be- Yeah... which is really lame, but true. Um, I mostly use Substack Notes. Yeah. That's sort of my weapon of choice these days.

349
00:55:31.036 --> 00:55:35.086
Um, yeah, that's, that's where I spend a lot of time. I- That makes sense...

350
00:55:35.086 --> 00:55:47.136
and like I, I do videos on there and, like, the same sort of satir- satirizing as like the 10, you know, the m- one tip I learned in 10 years, that kind of stuff. Yeah. Of like I might have- Oh, this reminds me.

351
00:55:47.176 --> 00:55:58.246
Wait, so one thing, you had this series, uh, speaking of satirizing, um, what was it? Like, messy-ass spaces. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Uh, which is so funny 'cause I interviewed the guy who did Workspaces- [laughs]...

352
00:55:58.276 --> 00:56:06.876
which I think you were riffing on, uh, like- Yeah, yeah, yeah... two months ago. [laughs] Yeah. [laughs] I was like, which is such a funny, like, uh, newsletter inside baseball- Mm-hmm, mm-hmm, mm-hmm... moment.

353
00:56:07.196 --> 00:56:17.956
But- Mm-hmm, mm-hmm... yeah, anyways. Um- Yeah... what do you wanna be doing with, you know, all this, let's say two or three years from now? Mm-hmm. Would you like to be, like, writing Both Are True full time?

354
00:56:18.456 --> 00:56:28.636
Do you wanna still be doing this in Sublime? Do you wanna be doing, you know, consulting for other people's newsletters full time? What are you doing two to three years from now in a dream? Yeah.

355
00:56:28.696 --> 00:56:38.176
Yeah, that's a good question. I mean, I think I, I could still be at Sublime if that's going really well and it's cruising- Yeah... and we're having f- a lot of fun.

356
00:56:38.316 --> 00:56:48.716
Um, I think I am devoting a lot of time to Both Are True. I think maybe I'm, let's just f- let's say it, maybe I'm publishing a book. Ooh, love that. You know, of, of, of essays.

357
00:56:48.856 --> 00:56:56.716
Um, I, I have a little story about that, but w- I can, uh, yeah. I'm happy to hear it. Okay. Uh, well, so, um,

358
00:56:58.056 --> 00:57:13.906
the, I've like, I once wrote in a post that, uh, I was like, "And if anybody, if any agents out there, uh, want to help me sell my book, Crime and Punishment, question mark, please reach out." Mm.

359
00:57:13.906 --> 00:57:24.495
And like this agent from WME reached out- What?... as a joke. Yeah. But like, as a joke but not, you know? Like, we were like, and then it was like, well, clearly like- Unless... you don't- Yeah. Yeah, yeah.

360
00:57:24.516 --> 00:57:35.126
[laughs] Yeah. So you're saying there's a chance. And it was like, uh, a- and then I just asked her, I was like, we were just kinda goofing for a while, and then I was like, "So what would it take to, like, sell a book?"

361
00:57:35.196 --> 00:57:43.886
You know? And she was like- Mm... "Well, do you have anything you're trying to write?" And then I, like, very manically wrote out this, like, pitch for a book. Yeah.

362
00:57:43.886 --> 00:57:54.736
That like, again, I've had in my mind for forever, but I'd never written it down, and I, I sent it to her and she basically, I was like, "Am I crazy? Is this like insane?" She was like, "No, you're not crazy.

363
00:57:54.816 --> 00:58:04.456
Like, here's kind of like the things I would do next." Oh, sick. And I haven't really done those things. Um- Yeah... but, you know, I basically have a book deal. [laughs] Yeah. Here's what I'd say. No, that's sick.

364
00:58:04.536 --> 00:58:14.436
That, I mean, you, you, you figured out, you broke through like, you know, the outer layer of- Totally... of the castle a little bit. I mean, yeah, yeah. And I think, I think it could be cool. Um- Yeah...

365
00:58:14.456 --> 00:58:28.806
but I'm also, I, I, you know, I used to do a lot of stuff with acting, and, and with acting- Yeah... I was so thirsty, you know? I was so, like, begging agents to represent me, like, so needy. Yeah.

366
00:58:28.856 --> 00:58:38.616
And I think I've realized that, like, I wanna do the opposite here. Like, if some- Well, you also, you were living in LA and now you live in Asheville. I feel like you've- Yeah... you've given that up. Totally. Totally.

367
00:58:38.826 --> 00:58:48.836
I, I like, I want it to be that, like, if somebody wants to work with me, they'll reach out, you know? Yeah. I want it to feel like that and not like me begging for their help. Um- Yeah...

368
00:58:48.886 --> 00:59:01.376
and more like z- it being mutual. Um, it's a lot healthier for my, my mental state. Yeah. Perfect. Well, I think we'll end it there. Um, keep his mental- Cool... state healthy. Listeners, go subscribe. Please.

369
00:59:01.436 --> 00:59:09.736
Um, Alex, thank you for coming on. Thank you, man. This was awesome. Yeah. Thank you for all the research you did. This is- Oh... this was really fun. It's the funnest part of my job. All right.

370
00:59:09.836 --> 00:59:15.256
Well, this has been the Creator Spotlight podcast, and I will see you next week. Thank you for listening.

371
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