Part of why the creator journalism space is one of the most exciting parts of journalism and news right now is because it's actually, like, people are paying for it. People are paying for news and information.
They want to actually pay, and so that is, like, amazing. What is your operating definition of, of creator?
There's a growing number of folks that I work with who don't want to identify as journalists anymore, even though they came up as journalists. They want to identify as creators.
Are there maybe two or three common mistakes that you've seen creator journalists make that you would urge anybody listening [laughs] not to do? Well, um, yes.
[percussive music] Welcome back to the Creator Spotlight podcast.
My name is Francis Zier, and today we're speaking with Liz Kelly Nelson, creator of Project C, a weekly newsletter about the practice and business of independent creator journalism.
For my money, she is one of the sharpest, clearest thinkers covering the space, and comes to it with over two decades of experience in traditional media, most recently at Vox.
Um, okay, Liz, you put out this piece in April based around an interview with Sam Ragland of the American Press Institute- Yeah...
that gave, that really advanced my understanding of the word influencer and how I actually, in these conversations, how I explain it to people.
And the take there was like, what I took from it was that there's not necessarily such a thing as an influencer in the creator economy sense that we, we were so used to 10 years ago. Mm-hmm.
But that influence is something you can wield, and influencing is something you can do. Yeah. But nobody is, like, simply an influencer. Yeah.
There are just people who play roles in people's lives, whether they're a creator, or I think, like, in that, in this piece you wrote about, it could be a pastor or whatever it is. Exactly.
There's people who wield influence. So tell me more about, uh, how you think about this term news influencer. You touched on it a little bit, but just in that context- Right... a little more. Yeah.
So people who-- I mean, that is very much, um, uh, central to what Sam and I talked about when we had that conversation, that there are so many different people in your life, or in a person's life, who can play a role in influencing how you feel or your understanding of a, you know, whether it's politics or your local, you know, uh, uh, issues that are happening, crime and justice in your area, and they are so different.
Like, I mean, and, and, and I think that I would say that the distinction in the conversation with Sam, um, and one that I, I do come up against a lot with, depending on who I'm working with or talking to at Project C, is there's a big difference between working at the national, international, internet level and working at the local level, which in journalism, you know, I mean, the, the, there is, um, a big push to reach audiences locally.
And so that's where, like, the work that Sam is doing with the American Press Institute is really important because it's about understanding who wields influence at all of these different levels.
And at the local level, yes, it can be a pastor, it can be the head of the PTA, it can be the mom in a mom's group who has, like, put together a, a WhatsApp chat, right?
And these are the kinds of people who are actually helping you frame and form the context that you are going through life and understanding, you know, what agency you have, how you feel about your community, how you're voting, um, and all of that.
So yes, they wield influence, and I think that is very different from describing somebody as an influencer- Mm-hmm... you know, as a, as a noun. I mean, it just, it, it's kinda become a meaningless phrase. Um- Yeah.
No, I, I fully agree. Yeah. And I think one that, like, at least, you know, in, in, with the people I come in contact in, nobody wants to be called that. You know? Yeah. I mean, it kind of has...
I think it's, when people say, and when I, I mean, when I think of, when I think with like the most,
I don't know, remaining, the oldest definition of it for me is, like, the person who takes a picture with a product and posts it to Instagram. There's no video. It's not writing.
It's just a picture of a product on Instagram, um- Yeah... with like a person with it. Yeah.
It's, it's, well, and that's something that, you know, and I, I don't know that that came up in the piece I did with Sam, but I have, you know, had this conversation elsewhere.
At least when it comes to journalism, like, influencer is a marketing term. Yes. Right?
And so it's like, it's not a good, comfortable fit for people who are thinking about, like, influencing how somebody is learning about the world and about things that, you know, are, as we talked about, that are helping them, like, be a better-informed citizen.
Mm-hmm. It just feels like a really weird fit. Like, why are we borrowing marketing terms to describe the work that we do that we, you know, really often and I think credibly believe is mission-driven? Mm-hmm.
So- So I think there's less and less that discomfort with the term creator, right? Yeah.
Like, maybe the, maybe it's still there, and for a lot of people it's lingering, but, like, I think more and more it's just becoming a way, like, people understand, like, oh, a creator is somebody who produces content and pushes it out on the internet, and maybe it's as simple as that.
Um, I'm curious if you, in your work with your clients, with the peop- your audience, these creator journalists, what you kind of urge them to learn from creators versus maybe leave behind. Yeah.
So, uh, first, really quickly, I actually, there's a growing number of folks that I work with who don't want to identify as journalists anymore, even though they came up as journalists.
They want to identify as creators, and that's how they will tell you- Hmm... um, to describe them.
Um, Becca Farsace, who is a former Verge videographer who now has a really successful channel on YouTube, um, doing tech, I think it's called Tech Outside- Mm-hmm... um, is like, "Don't call me a journalist.
Like, I work journalistically, and I have posted ethics policy, all these things, but I see myself as a creator." Um, and that is partly due to how audiences are building trust at this point.
Journalists are not seen as the most trustworthy messengers anymore, especially with younger generations. So, um, so, like, part of that is wanting to distance themselves from what they have left behind.
Um, what I urge them to take from the creator space, uh, is the ability to monetize what they're doing. Hmm. Right?
Like, I mean, part of why the creator journalism space is one of the most, um-Exciting parts of, like, the evolution of journalism and news right now is because it's actually, like, people are paying for it.
There was an article, I'm sure you saw it, it was, like, a month or so ago in The Times, it was kind of this hand-wringy piece about how much money people are spending on subscriptions to newsletters. Mm-hmm.
And it was, you know, like, I- you left the piece, like, the writer, and I, I don't know the writer, and I'm sure they are a lovely person, but kind of like people are wasting money on newsletters, right?
It felt like an attack by traditional media on- It really did... the creator economy. Which was very rich coming from The New York Times, to whom I pay, like, upwards of $200 a year- [laughs]...
for access, basically, to Wordle. Mm-hmm. But, um, but I thought it was a really optimistic piece. Like, people are paying for news and information. Like, they are not being cajoled into it, not being guilted into it.
Like, they want to actually pay to have access to, whether it's FeedMe or What the Fuck Just Happened Today- Mm-hmm... or, you know, what have you. And so that is, like, amazing.
And so I use that as a lesson when I'm talking to a lot of these journalists, who, again, it's kind of like depro- programming cult members to be okay with making money, right? Because [laughs]
we want the people that we work with at Project CE to be able to support themselves doing this work, and that's what they want, too. And a part of that is understanding how to, like, harness the creator economy. Mm-hmm.
So those are some of the biggest things that we try to help them understand, is how to do that, how to be comfortable with doing that, how to be responsive to market changes, how to read their audience, how to know when to do, like, a, like, reader resp- like a, a rapid response fundrai- you know, raise with their- Mm-hmm...
readership, right? Because there's something going on.
Um, you know, Lex, I can say, worked very closely with LA Taco during the protests a couple of weeks ago to help them do a reader raise in the midst of that coverage, which was incredibly successful, and had to get them past feelings of feeling icky about it- Mm-hmm...
at the beginning. But the, you know, the truth is, like, this is how the creator economy works, and it is how the audience decides what they are going to invest in.
And increasingly, they don't see a difference between, you know, journalism and anything else- Mm-hmm... that they're supporting out there. Yeah.
I mean, I w- a couple years ago when I was starting out in a marketing role, my boss there was like, "We are trying to just reach people. Like, don't think of it as marketing.
Anything that anybody can look at on their phone is what we're competing with." And I think it's the same for journalism, whether it's marketing, whether it's just like- That's exactly right. Yeah. It's just content.
Yeah. It's just content. [laughs] Yeah. Well, I mean, and the thing... Yeah, the thing is that, like, you're right, it's anything on your phone that we're competing with.
And, you know, so another thing that we really encourage our folks that we work with to understand is, like, cover, like, a small thing or a small piece of something and do it really well. Mm-hmm.
Like, again, the niching down, right? Like, and, and I... As journalists, we kinda start thinking we have to be able to address everything, right?
But nobody is looking to a newsletter really anymore, or a video creator, or a TikTok channel to be a general interest news publication.
Um, and so that is something that I think probably creators or, you know, influencers, marketing influencers do really well, is they know their lane- Mm-hmm...
and they stay in it, and they build a really loyal audience there. Um, a general interest publication at this point in time is TikTok. A general interest publication at this time is your Instagram feed. Your inbox.
Your inbox. Mm-hmm. Like, all of these things. And so you wanna be, like, if you're Matt Brown, you wanna be, like, the sports page or the, the college sports page- Mm-hmm... in that inbox or in that feed, right?
You don't want to be The New York Times that does all of those things and might do one of those things.
Um, so I mean, there's, I, I, I think a, um, unlimited amount of topics that people can continue to cover journalistically, be passionate about, and build an audience around.
And often, those smaller niche audiences are going to be more, I think, um, lucrative for them than necessarily a massive scaled audience in the- Mm-hmm... in the long run. Yeah. No, I definitely agree with that.
Um, in terms of a creator journalist who's getting started, maybe they're, they're dipping their toe, maybe they're still at a publication and, and they wanna go independent, how do you kind of make people understand what's viable?
Let's say, you know, somebody's looking at their first year of, like, "What do I have to think for? What do I have to plan for? What should my goals be for my first year of, of going it alone?"
What do you help people understand as, like, showing signs of a viable creator journalist venture?
Yeah, I mean, it's a lot of, like, being really intentional and clear about what your personal targets are and your goals, and making sure that you are checking back on them regularly.
And that starts with some real basics. I mean, many folks who are leaving traditional newsrooms say, "I wanna leave because I just wanna do this thing, and I think I can be the person to cover public health," right?
Mm-hmm. Um, but it's not just that. It's like you're also launching a business, right? An LLC or an S corp. You're paying quarterly taxes. You have rent to pay. How much does your rent cost or your mortgage or whatever?
You know, what are the things that you have to do? So we actually get as granular with them as understanding, like, with your W-2 job- Mm... how much money do you spend each month?
Will you, like, uh, are you, what are you willing to give up, right, for year one or year two or year three of going independent? Um, and what does that look like?
And then we, we basically take that to say, "Set a six-month buffer."
Like, make sure that you have six months of, like, you know, if that's $15,000 that you need, like, to be able to float for six months and build this brand, um, have that at the ready.
But then also we use that to then set what your revenue targets are. Mm.
Um, and luckily, like in my last role at Vox, where I was vice president of strategy and, um, and operations, I was responsible for Vox's lines of revenue.And so I got a crash course and an MBA in, like, basically projecting, right?
Revenue projecting. So kind of your big yearly goal, breaking it down by quarter, breaking it down then by month by month, and then now we break it down for our creators with, like, these are your baskets, right? Mm-hmm.
Back to the baskets, and what you're going to need to achieve in each one, and then we use that as a way for the help- to help them understand how much time they need to spend doing everything else other than writing or producing videos.
Um, so, you know, it, it varies from creator to creator what they will need, but, um, we want them to be very clear for themselves on what their goal is.
One thing, and, you know, that Lex and I find, is that, like, they tend to aim really low. Hmm. Right? And I think, again, that comes back to that cult deprogramming that we have to do, is, like, journalists, like, it...
I, I don't know, maybe it's not as widely known as I thought.
You know, everybody thinks that it's a, you know, kinda cool thing to do, but you don't get paid a lot to be a journalist, um, unless you're Kara Swisher or Ezra Klein or Matt Yglesias.
Like, it's not like a, you know, like a, like, rank-and-file newsroom person at a digital news startup is probably, like, if they're out of college, coming in at, like, between 80 and 85, and maybe breaking 100 once they've been there for a few years.
Mm-hmm. Um, and, uh, if you are working at a local newsroom, take that way down to sometimes $30,000 to $40,000 a year- Yeah... which is just frightening. Um, and it's so sad.
Uh, so that's the expectation level that folks are coming into doing this for their own, and what they do is they then say, "Well, if I'm just by myself, I can't possibly make that $80,000.
I can't possibly make that $40,000, so I'm gonna undersell and undervalue myself."
And so we help them understand how to properly value themselves based on what we have seen and what we know is true about how other people have been able to grow and monetize their work. Mm-hmm.
Um, going back to the audience bit that we were talking about a few minutes ago- Mm-hmm...
and, like, maybe, I don't know, I would, I don't wanna say, like, minimum viable audience size, but I'm curious what the metrics are that you guide people to look at to maybe reach financial viability, whether it's- Yeah...
in the first year or a few years, whatever. Um, you know, you were talking about how you, you wanna focus on making a niche product. You wanna serve a niche audience.
What do you tell your clients and, and your, your audience to actually, like, set their sights on? Right. Well, so obviously it depends from platform to platform.
Like, we work with video creators as well, so in YouTube, um, so it's a little bit different there.
But with newsletter writers, like, we, we certainly want them to understand that, like, at least in our reckoning, uh, that your number, total number of subscribers you have, obviously only a fraction of that, a small fraction are going to be paid subscribers, right?
So, uh, we help them subset, set their subscription price and their tiers based on understanding that it's actually that very small, very loyal audience that is going to be paying your bills, right?
So, uh, in the first year, like, we certainly want people to break...
You know, if we're talking about a local newsletter, we want them to have, and it's very modest at the local side, we want them to have between 10 and 15,000 subscribers by the end of a year that are just, that's total- Mm-hmm...
with a, you know, with that 7% to 10% that are paying. But then also, you know, at the local level, we are working with po- folks, like folks like Brian Vance, who launched the amazing- Stumptown Savings...
Stumptown Savings- Yes... to go out and actually, like, find sponsorships, right? Because that is going to be a way to augment.
Like, you know, for somebody like Brian, subscribers may not be the way to, like, get to full paycheck, and Brian has struggled with that.
He's finally, I'm excited to say, making some breakthroughs on the sponsorship side and advertising side, um, by going out, like shoe leather, like actually talking, chatting up store owners, like in person. Wow.
And that's how it's done. Now, at the national level, obviously we are asking folks to set their sights higher.
Um, and so we wanna see people obviously reaching, you know, uh, in year one, we probably want them to be closer to 50,000 or above in terms of subscribers.
But again, it really depends on the, uh, the goal that you've set for yourself. There are some people who are comfortable with fewer than that, right?
Because they just don't need to or want to make as much based on their personal situation. Mm-hmm. Uh, I wanna talk about bundling. Mm. I think there's a, a good angle here. But before we talk about- Yeah...
bundling more generally, and, and for, for journalists, I wanna talk about your and Lex's bundle again. So- Okay... you create a journalist bundle.
You, you already described it a little bit, but I'll say you launched it in April. Yeah. It is $15 a month or $150 a year, and, uh, I'll list what it includes: access to the Project C Slack community- Yeah...
for creator journalists- Mm-hmm...
a premium subscription to Journalists Pay Themselves, which is Lex's newsletter, um, all access to Lex's paid sub playbook, which is another sort of newsletter product they have, um, invite-only live sessions and sprints year-round, and- Yeah...
discounts on upcoming Project C coaching and seminars. Yeah. So tell me, um, how this is going three months after launch. You said you got 68 people, I think, in the Slack. Yes, and it is amazing.
I mean, it has blown past all of our expectations. It is an incredibly active community.
Um, and I, you know, you can actually look on LinkedIn and see where folks like Brian Vance and Matt Brown have said this has become their new favorite place to be. Mm-hmm.
It's like their office, um, on the internet, like, where they show up every day.
But, you know, Lex and I started this, and, and we also have Ryan Kellett, Blair Hickman, Caitlin Dewey, um, Matt Keyser, and it is kind of we're all kind of, like, moderators.
Um, we thought we were gonna have to do much more work in kind of, like, spurring conversation and seeding people to engage.
We did have to do some of that early on, and we still do some of that because we organically want to, but the community has taken on a life of its own.And it is a thriving, bustling place where pretty much, not 24 hours a day, but like, you know, if you count the fact that we've got people coast to coast and- 9:00 to 5:00...
9:00 to 5:00. Yeah. And we've got people overseas too. I mean, like, I- it's not unusual for me to like take a peek at like 11 o'clock at night and see there's a conversation unfolding about, you know,
what, what has Beehiiv done now, you know? It's like that, that is happening. Um, and we have like things that have happened, like accountability groups that have popped up. Mm.
Um, there are people who meet every Friday to say, "This is the goal I set at the beginning of this week. Like, did I do it, and why, why not?"
Um, there was just a meetup this week in LA of people who are in the Project C Slack who are in LA. Um, and so we've got like photos of them all having tacos together, which is incredible.
Um, and we're starting to see things like, uh, uh, collaborations come out of this. So some of that is intentional.
Um, so Lex did a recent like promo swap push for, uh, June, uh, where like Lex actually did an amazing thing.
It was a members-only event where we got together and we paired people with one another to talk about might there be a way to like, you know, kind of naturally promote one another's work. Mm. That has gone amazingly.
Like we're starting to see a lot of crossovers there, but then we're starting to see people who just want to work together because they're seeing an opportunity, um, to, to like pair their content, um, and think about their audiences as having similar goals.
Um, and so it's amazing. We're seeing a lot of peer editing like I was talking about- Mm...
where, you know, folks who maybe just don't have an editor or another set of eyes, I do a lot of that actually, 'cause as a, you know, old journalist, like I love editing and getting in the content and like getting into it with somebody, so I do a lot of that with Shamus Hughes of Court Watch, uh, which is really fun.
Shamus has some cool stuff that, uh, that he works on. So it's great. Um, so now we are, um, you know, we've got a pretty full slate in addition to the Slack of now members-only events that we do.
We- we've got everything planned out for the rest of the year.
Um, and we are starting to contemplate even more kind of 201 level courses that will be kind of a, um, augmentation of Going Solo based on now what we have learned from the folks who've gone through Going Solo, but who also are in this community who...
And I keep waving like this because my Slack is open over here. [laughs] And I see them. Yeah.
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Whether it's bundling or not, I think that all of the most successful creators have a team around them, even if it's, you know, even if they are still the figurehead and it's their name- Yeah... everywhere.
They have like other people working for them. Yeah.
Um, I'm curious if you have seen in, in your- in the circles you run in, uh, any like truly solo successes or if, or if you do think that's a myth as I [laughs] as I do. Right.
I mean, I don't think it's a myth, but I think it's like you have to like, um, calibrate your definition of success. Hm. Calibrate it for me. Right. Okay. So
I think like, um, somebody who has a team around them who's really successful is Matt Brown, right? Mm. Yeah, amazing. And he started out solo, but he now has, he just hired an editor last month.
He just posted another posting for a writer and so his team continues to grow. He is understanding that there are more opportunities beyond just writing the newsletter. He's got a lot of like premium products.
And so that is like I think we can all agree that that is success. Yeah. Right? And he's doing it on his own terms. Caitlin Jenalina is another. Um- But, but, but let me, let me reference it. Right. Yeah.
I think what Matt is building is, is just a publication. It's like, it's not- Yes... it's not the Matt Brown Show, and I mean- Exactly. Yeah...
anybody who's listening who hasn't listened to, to his episode of the Creator Spotlight podcast, go check it out.
Uh, but at that point, I think he had, he had- was about to hire the writer maybe, and he had two other people working with him, and then also his, his co-owner. Yeah. Um, it's, it's just a sports publication now.
It's no longer the Matt Brown column, which is- Exactly... what so many solo creators are. It's Extra Points College Sports Publication. Right, Extra Points the brand. Yeah.
And, and, and that is, you are absolutely right, that is something that we see happening over and over, that people who find a level of success, or certain people, you know, Matt Brown being one, which I think is great- Mm-hmm...
want to then grow it into a thing, an enterprise.
And that is good in some ways because it's new and different, and it's content, like that's still, Matt Brown would tell you, it, it is not a general interest publication.
It's still very much covering that one thing even though it's not just Matt. Um, and you know, Barry Weiss with Free Press, like these are other people who, you know, to use a counterexample that's, you know.
Um, but the, like this is a thing that happens, right? Mm. Like, you know, we see that especially like on Substack. Even Caitlin Jenalina, who I mentioned with Your Local Epidemiologist, is now a huge team.
It's not just Caitlin writing. Um, and what happens is like on that news ecosystem map that I created is they start then moving into a different category, right? Like they're not creator journalists anymore. Mm-hmm.
They may have started there and those are their roots, but they are becoming almost like what I'm now calling a new new media company.Right? Like, where now, like, 10 years ago, Vox would've been a new media company.
Vox, to me now, is legacy, right? Absolutely. Yeah. Like, all the digital stuff, that's legacy.
What Matt Brown, what Caitlin Johnstone, what Barry Weiss, like, what Mehdi Hasan, like, what all these people are doing, that's new, new media.
And so that comes with a different set of risks, a different set of rewards. It bumps them into a different, kind of, level on the pecking order of, like, what, what money is available to them. Um, it...
Uh, you know, Matt, I think, will tell you, like, misses sometimes being just a writer. Mm-hmm. And he probably did tell you that when he was on your podcast. Yeah. You know?
So he now has all of these other things, um, and, and has to think about whether there are people that depend on him, right? Like, so that's very different.
There are other people who, they don't want to do that, and I think do feel that they are finding a level of success. Um, you know, Chris Cillizza, who writes- Mm... um, uh, So What, who was...
He was actually, he and I were, we were baby journalists together at the Washington Post. We launched two of the Post's first blogs back in, like, the early 2000s. I wanna come back to that, by the way. Okay. Yeah.
We'll put a pin in that. No, most definitely. Um, but he's working independently. Mm-hmm. Right? And he is...
And I did an interview with him, and he was very open about the fact that he's making about $225,000 a year on his Substack. Mm. And, kind of, like, the...
You know, he's got a few things, like, he's got a little creator-side deal with YouTube. He's, like, one of the folks who's opted into Newsphere. Um,
his wife is helping him, so I don't know if you count that as, like, him turning into a media company. I don't, but- No, I don't... like, I feel like he's found a level of success, um, that right now he's happy with.
Um, our friend Caitlin Dewey, who we've mentioned,
Caitlin is working 100% on her own, and I think she's still, kind of, on her journey, you know, to figuring out, like, is she reaching the level that she wanted to reach when she launched, and is she making the money she wanted to make?
Um, she's still on an upward trajectory, but still working very much alone.
And so I think that actually that is where something like Project C turning into more of a collective bundle, it will be helpful for people like that, right? Yeah.
Who are like, "I don't want to be Matt Brown and hire all of these people myself, but I would love to be part of something where, if I need a financial advisor, I have one.
Um, if I need to have somebody who can go out and, um, help me to sell advertising and sponsorships, like, there's a solution." And it's, like, I, I'm not inventing anything with this.
Like, this is, like, very much the model of, like, agencies that are working with creators out in the, kind of, more, you know, non-journalism space. Yeah. Right? They're providing a lot of the support for them.
Um- Well, you... Another... You could also just call this a media company. Like, this is just- Right... kind of [laughs] Right...
it all comes back and- But I guess the difference is, like, with Project C, is I don't necessarily want Project C to be the consumer- Mm... facing brand.
I want these people to be building their own things, and, um, and I'm not trying to, like, kind of, put them all together under one banner. So it's, it's not even Puck, it's not even 404. Yeah.
Um, so yeah, that's the difference. Um, o- I wanna bring in a quote from your reflection on your trip to the Newsletter Conference- [laughs]... in, [laughs] in New York in May. Okay.
So you wrote that it was a bit of a culture shock, but I'll say, um- Yeah... so what you said. Uh, "I expected to walk away with tips on audience growth and monetization.
I did, but I also left feeling like I'd stepped into a parallel universe, one where newsletters are treated almost exclusively as business assets, not as tools for service, trust, or community.
The emphasis was on scaling fast, slicing audiences into ever-nichere segments, and automating everything possible." Um, so one thing I...
One reason I wanted to include this too is I see Project C as, sort of, another version of something like, uh, the Newsletter Club, Michael Kofman's- Yeah... uh, group that, y- you know, another former guest.
Um, and he is really good at this business side. He has- Yeah... Catskill Crew, which is this local newsletter that he's sort of built into this holding company.
And I don't mean to, like, say that, like, what he's doing isn't based on trust, et cetera. He doesn't do journalism. And, and- Right...
that's, that's kind of what this local newsletter model that he and Ryan Sneddon, who I've had on before, that a lot of these guys do.
It's not really journalism, but it is about community and about trust, and it, like, does have a valuable place in its communities. For sure.
But I thought of that, and, like, I think that these guys are more aligned with what you mentioned here in this quote about the Newsletter Conference, whereas you are so much more on the journalist side.
And these are these two things, where it's like, I would love to see these, sort of, like, very business-driven local newsletter types somehow marry with these really journalism-driven writer types.
Um, but it's so hard, because- Yeah... you can't really... You know, even for the, the, the local newsletter guys, it's like they're only making so much money, where then can they really support a journalist?
Do they even want to? It just cuts into their profits. For what? Maybe no extra profit. Um- Right... that was a lot, but, [laughs] anyways, like- Yeah. Well, no, I mean, I agree.
Like, I, I wanna see us step closer to each other too, right? And I, I really admire actually what Michael has done- It's amazing... with Catskill Crew and with the Newsletter Club. I think it's amazing.
And, and I wouldn't say... I mean, he's the first to say, "I'm not a journalist," right? Yeah. Like, his background is in startups and tech. Um, but he is a trusted messenger in his community. Mm. Right?
Like, it- And he prioritizes trust. He, he- And he prioritizes trust... that's his whole thing. Yeah.
So, like, I, I actually would not say that he's, like, the kind of person that I was talking about when, you know, you read that quote from- No... the Newsletter Conference.
I will also say, like, that quote was very much, like, the piece, I wrote it from the point of view of somebody who comes from the journalism world going into a kind of conference that is new to us, right? Mm-hmm.
Like, I am used to going to, like, the Online News Association conference, right? Like, uh, investigative reporters and editors, where really it is mission that is centered.
And so it was a rude awakening, it, to be in a space where it's, like, really the end goal of, of the, you know, at least the program that I saw that day, was, like, how much can you...
Like, what is the biggest margin you can make on this, and what are the ways of, you know, like, optimizing all of your workflows?
Um, you know, how you are manipulating your audience to, like, land at-Bigger, bigger, bigger, and bigger profits. That's not bad- Mm-hmm...
but it is something that I wanted my audi- like, I am speaking in my newsletter primarily to journalists, journalism funders, and people in the journalism world, right?
And so I wa- I am always, like, kind of their avatar when I'm going into these spaces, and so I needed to couch my reaction in that way. There were a lot of incredibly valuable things that I heard that day.
No surprise, Dan Ashensky, who is an absolute, um, you know, treasure. Mm-hmm. Like, a lot of, like, what was valuable came from him because it was very practical.
Um, but I mean, honestly, like, there was a lot of, like, bros, like, on stage, like, talking about, like, "My newsletter's bigger than yours," and it felt like a blank measuring contest. Uh. [laughs] You know?
And, and so, like, I, I don't know. I, I do... I question, like, how valuable ultimately that is. I, I... and I've talked to the, you know, I've talked to Dan about this.
I've talked to the guys who, you know, run the newsletter conference and have told them this. Like, if, you know, really think about who you want buying tickets to the newsletter conference- Mm...
and what their needs are. And, like, I, I think it's... and maybe if it is a growing portion of people like me, and who are journalists, like, that is not the exact programming we need, right?
Um, what we need is more of, like, the practical stuff that Dan was doing. And, um, I think that part of it is it's really hard to do it all on one stage in one day, right? Yeah.
Like, it's like, and they want to deliver. I mean, it's, the ticket's expensive. They wanna deliver. They wanna have the big bang for the buck. They want people to feel like...
You know, I was excited I got to see Janice Min and Ben Mullen. You know, like, that was a great conversation. It was wonderful.
But, um- You also said that they kind of stood out and almost didn't fit into the programming. I, I, yeah, they, they didn't. Yeah.
Like, it felt very much like this is, like, the, these are the show ponies that we've brought in so that everybody can talk about this and tweet about, like, "Oh, what did Janice Min say at the newsletter conference?"
Mm-hmm. Um, the rest of it felt very, yeah, kind of insidery.
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I, w- One question I used to ask when I first started doing this, um, that I would ask every guest is, like, "Do you have a responsibility to your audience? Is this something you think about? Can you define it for me?"
And I stopped asking, 'cause people usually were like, "I don't, not really. I don't think I do," maybe to, like, tell the truth. I only asked it so many times- Yeah...
so not to be, like, disparaging of, of former guests at all.
Um, but I think it's like, especially, I think the, the creator economy, this goes back to the thing that, like, um, the belief that the solo creator is kind of a myth, right? Like, you,
you do have this responsibility, whether or not you choose to accept it, to, to your audience- Yeah... no matter what niche you're in.
Um, but I think that especially, like, on the internet, there's all these ways of making money and these games, and it's, it's all so gamified, right? And it- Yes... it's like the audience measuring contest.
This is just another game and a competition. Um, and I, I don't know.
I think that this is a space where there are so many, like, clear, like, inputs and outputs, and, like, fi- ways of finding arbitrage, where it's easy to get caught up in that. Um, and I don't know.
I, I don't know how you, how we promote this more responsible, uh, way of, you know, being a creator, of participating in the creator economy. That's what I try to do with, with Creator Spotlight. Yeah. Right? Yeah.
But you can only lead a horse t- to water. [laughs] I know. I know. And yeah, and I mean, and there will always be people who are actually, like, working against that actively. Mm-hmm. Right?
Um, but I, I think that the more of us that are out there doing it, like, the better the chances are that we will make some headway, and that is certainly something that is central to Project C, and then cer- certainly central to all of the people who I work with.
Because as you know, like, the creator space is a very collaborative space. We're a community. We tend to gravitate and, like, work on projects together. Mm-hmm.
And, um, you know, one of the, the organizations that I work with really closely is called Trusting News. Yes. Um, which is amazing. Great newsletter, by the way- Great... anybody who doesn't subscribe.
Yes, they are incredible.
And, and Joy Mayer, who, who is the founder of Trusting News, is very interested in helping to, you know, inject more understanding of and kind of ethics and transparency into the creator space, and not just injecting it like, "Hey, I come from the news industry.
I'm here to help and tell you how to do this." Also understanding how trust is built in that space. Mm.
And, um, basically, at the end of the day, um, building communities of creator journalists who do care about that stuff. Yes. Right? That's the way forward. And, you know, that's the way forward.
And when you look at it from, like, the other, when you turn it around and, like, look through the other end of this telescope, on the other end, you have increasingly younger audiences, Gen Z and now Gen Alpha, um, who this is primarily where they are getting their news information about the world.
Again, we're back to that idea of, like, your general interest publication is your social feed. And so the more folks that we can work with and who have, like, some ethical underpinnings- Mm-hmm...
and what that shows up as, whether that is, like, they are actively engaging in their comments and answering questions when the readers are calling them on the carpet, or if that looks like they're saying, like, "I am citing primary sources," or they're being very clear about how they monetize.
I think the more that those younger audiences see that as a best practice, the more it will be obvious when they don't see it. Yes.
I, I did wanna ask about this sort of, like, you know, fact-checking or editing, whatever, for creator journalists who are less resourced, um- Yeah...
compared to traditional news organizations, and maybe you have to ship-One thing a week, or your, you know, your newsletter's three [laughs] times a week, whatever it is.
And you have to make decisions and compromises around, like, fact-checking or, uh, you know, probably not ethics. Whatever. Right.
Um, how do you see less resourced creator journalists managing that sort of dilemma of, like, what do I commit to?
We- Maybe I, I used to be at The Washington Post, and I had a fact-checker, and now it's just me and I don't. Like- Yeah... how do you see people navigating that? It's really hard.
I mean, especially when you think about people like Marisa Kabas- Mm-hmm... like with The Handbasket, who's doing, you know, investigative reporting, um, and needs to get it right, right?
Like needs to be well-sourced, needs to have deep fact-checking done because then, you know, if you're not, you do have that liability risk.
Um, it's really difficult, um, especially when they're not maybe making the enou- enough money to bring on somebody, even a, in a part-time or freelance capacity to do that work for them.
So that's where you see a lot of the peer editing kicking in. Mm-hmm. Um, or, um, you know, it...
Trying to find communities of people who care about what you care about, who are in the kind of topic area that you're in to kind of ask, like, am, am I getting this right? Yeah. Right?
You know, like Katelyn Jetelina has a team, but Katelyn, prior to having a team, also had a whole community of epidemiologists that she knew who could say, like, "Am I getting this right?"
She had contacts within the CDC and elsewhere, um, and, uh, in pharmaceutical companies who could... So i- and so we see, like, a lot of that.
But again, this is the kind of thing that we need more infrastructure, we need more tools. Mm-hmm. Right? Like, I mean, we live in the future. We have AI.
Like there, there's, there should be and can be an easier way to let creators who are working independently have access to more support.
And, um, so we're seeing a lot of experiments in that space, um, starting to be talked about to how we can do that. Mm-hmm. Um, in five years, to that point, what do you dream of for the creator journalist landscape?
What do you hope it looks like? What do you hope has changed in, in any- Right... positive way?
Um, you know, I, I think that in some weird way, even though there have been folks who've been out here doing this for quite a while, right, um, who've been doing creator journalism.
I mean, you could even look at, I mean, people like, uh, Matt Drudge, right- Mm-hmm... as being like an OG creator journalist.
It is finally reaching kind of more of a tipping point where it's becoming a main s- main source of news and information.
And so because of that, we're seeing a lot of, like, weird experiments go out there, and we've talked about some of them today. Mm-hmm. Like bundling, right? Like, you know, business models.
Like, um, how standards and ethics are being maintained. Um, I... In five years, I'd like to see some of that dust settled, right?
And to have like a very clear understanding of what really good, rigorous creator model journalism looks like. Um, I'd like to make sure that there are fair business practices for these folks.
Um, I can give you a, an example or a counterexample of that. Yeah. Like, I think that there's like a real risk as... Like I, you know... So we didn't get through, like, my buckets of revenue.
Like, another big bucket of revenue for me is consulting. Yeah.
Um, I consult with a lot of folks, whether that's one-on-one helping some folks launch their project, but I also [laughs] increasingly consult for news organizations. Mm-hmm. And that's wonderful.
Like, I, I'm glad they're interested, but I do worry that there's a risk that they're gonna see creator journalists as a cheap solution to content when they're having, you know, laying off folks. So- Mm-hmm...
um, I wanna make sure that, like, th- standards are being built, and these people are being advocated for, so that in five years, like, it, it's not easy to take advantage of these folks.
And, um, and that could be by news organizations, that could be by platforms, that could be by what have you, but just that there's a stronger sense of who these folks are.
Um, and yeah, I, you know, and, and like I said, like, young audiences. Like, I, I know I bore people with this, but I have a son who, he just, today's his birthday. He's 15. [laughs] Happy birthday.
Um, happy birthday, Desmond. Um, but, you know, he's actually gonna be voting in the next presidential election. Oh, man.
And I would be so happy if, you know, on, uh, uh, the, November 1st, like, right, like in the next, before the next election, four years from now, three years from now, oh my God, um, that he tells me his top news sources are five independent creator journalists, and that he has never cracked The New York Times.
Like, I would j- That would make me really happy, right? That h- that that range and that richness is available to him. I, I think that'll probably be the case. I...
Wait, real quick, since you, you've [laughs] brought it back up, and that's how we started. Um- Uh-oh... can you break down, like by percentage, your revenue buckets? [laughs] Roughly. Sure, yeah.
I mean, uh, und- what the understanding then is- And then I think we're almost done here. [laughs] Right. I mean, with the understanding that it's a moving target- Yeah... and I'm a year into this, right? Mm-hmm.
So, um, you know, and again, unlike the folks that I work with, I don't see my newsletter as a, as a revenue, you know, source for me. It's top-of-funnel marketing.
Yeah, it's top-of-funnel marketing, you know, in, you know, if, if we're talking Brian Heaphy, it's, it's top-of-funnel marketing. If it's Okoto, it is like, it's like I want it free for journalists who need it, right?
Mm-hmm. So all of those things. So, but, like, right now, my biggest, my biggest, uh, revenue sources are the consulting, and then also increasingly, I'm, uh, working on some research projects- Mm...
which are funded by some philanthropic entities that, around creator journalism. Um, but Going Solo and the Journalism Bundle have been growing by leaps and bounds over the last few months.
So I, you know, my goal for 2026 is to actually flip that and have the money that I'm making from the bundle, from Going Solo, and from work in that basket be the primary revenue source. Yeah. I- Yeah...
to that point, in, like, what we were talking about, about, like, what this looks like in five years- Mm-hmm...
I've always hoped or wondered if there's any possibility for some kind of, like-A certifying organization, let's say, you know, some kind of, like, Michelin of creator journalism [laughs] Yeah...
or something that grades it. I wonder, I wonder if that could be Project C, you know? Well, yeah. It could be- I mean, I, I think about that and talk about that, or it could be trusting news, or it could be- Yeah...
I mean, there are, there are a lot of- A public consortium of all of these, to be honest... or a consortium of all of these, exactly.
And, and I think that it's less the journalists that are gonna care about that credentialing, as it is so much the people who we want to fund us, and- Yes... you know, go on this journey with us. So, um, but I...
So I do think that that's an important piece of what will happen, as I say, as we start growing up and maturing as a, as a news source. But it's gonna happen. Again, like I said earlier- Yeah...
this is the space, the sector of news with some of the most momentum right now. I agree. So, yeah. Um, last thing.
Uh, are there maybe two or three common mistakes that you've seen creator journalists make, that you would urge anybody listening n- not [laughs]... not to make? Um, well, yeah.
I mean, I think the, the biggest one is assuming that all it is is just, like, getting to write what you wanna write about, right, on a weekly basis or whatever that looks like. Like, it's so much more.
Like, the first thing we tell folks when they come into Going Solo is, like, "You're... Like, don't think about yourself as a journalist anymore. Think of yourself as a founder." Yes, agreed. Right?
So get into that founder's mindset. Um, and it's not gonna be easy, um, but it's gonna be really satisfying if you do it right. So, so that's the biggest one.
And then, I mean, I think I would say this for creator journalists, but also anyone, like, there's no quick fix. Mm-hmm. Right?
Like, uh, I think that, um, because you see, and not to pick on Substack, but because you see folks like Derek Thompson, like, leaving to la- The Atlantic to launch a Substack, or Paul Krugman leaving The New York Times to launch a Substack, and instantly having a huge scaled audience of hundreds of thousands of people, and, you know, the revenue that goes with that, that it's easy.
Um, and it's not easy, right? Uh, there's a lot of work that goes into it, especially for the folks who don't come with that kind of preexisting- Yeah... audience base. Um, so roll up your sleeves.
But- Takes 20 years to be an overnight success, right? Exactly. Mm. Exactly. You're right, and yeah, Derek Thompson, right, he didn't just fall off the turnip truck. Like, he's been building his reputation for decades.
So- Mm-hmm... yeah. [laughs] Takes a long time to get that abundance snowball rolling. It does. Um, [laughs] you know? It's- It does. Yeah. Yeah. Liz, thank you for coming out. This was super fun. This was so fun.
Thank you so much for having me, Francis. Of course. Okay. Uh, listener, we will see you next week.
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