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Welcome back to The Creator Spotlight Podcast. Today's episode is with Ali Abbasi, creator of AI for Work, a three times weekly AI-focused newsletter and AI prompt library.

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Ali, to be clear, is no longer affiliated with AI for Work.

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He sold it to an undisclosed buyer for an undisclosed sum at the beginning of 2024, after having worked on it for only half a year, which is certainly the fastest zero to acquisition newsletter story I have ever heard.

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I spent an hour speaking with Ali about using TikTok collaborations to attract newsletter subscribers, his ingenious lead magnet strategy, how he ended up selling his newsletter so quickly, the next newsletter he plans to start, and plenty more.

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As always, thank you for listening, and enjoy. For the listeners, tell me who are you, what do you do, and why are you, why, why are we talking to you for Creator Spotlight? Yeah, for sure. Um, okay, so who am I?

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My name is Ali Abbasi, and, um, I'm a creator. My day job is growth marketing. Uh, I work specifically on e-commerce brands.

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Um, so I work with an organization that manages about 13 different brands, and I focus on, on growing them. Uh, I came from the brand side.

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And then, uh, the reason why we're talking is because I recently sold a newsletter, uh, that I built. It took me about, uh, six to seven months. Um, I started building the newsletter in public, uh, on my LinkedIn.

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I shared, uh, pretty much on a weekly basis where I was at with it, what I was doing. So it only makes sense to, to finish it off with, um, with a story about, uh, the, the end of it, uh, or the end of my part in it.

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Yeah. No, that makes sense. I love the building in public thing too. I like... I, I love that approach.

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I always, I respect it, and I think, I, I interviewed somebody a few weeks ago who that's kind of her thing, is she's building in public. And, you know, Beehiiv CEO, Tyler, he's, he's doing that.

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There's so many pe- I don't know, I think it's becoming more and more of a thing.

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So the idea of like what is a creator is something that I'm obsessing over, thinking about every day as I do this, and as in like, who, who should I interview next? Like, will the audience like enjoy them?

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How do I, you know, figure out the angle?

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Um, and yesterday I interviewed this guy, Andrew Huang, who just, he's like a YouTuber, musician with like over two million followers, and he just published this book, Make Your Own Rules. Um, and I read it- Wow...

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and it was good.

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Uh, and one thing that that struck me from it is like he came from this musician, artist background, and the book is a lot about like, kind of speaks to create, like traditional creatives, whether it's an artist, musician, whatever, uh, and is kind of like teaching them basic professional business marketing principles.

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And I know you studied marketing. I have a marketing background as well. Um, and so I think it's interesting where like, uh, uh, and I know I'm rambling now, but, uh, like a creator,

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l- lot of definitions, but like a creator is a media company is kind of one of the definitions I'm coming around to.

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Um, but it's interesting where like, not to say you're not a creative person, like a writer, et cetera, but you came to it really with this like marketing background and marketing knowledge baked in, which is so different than somebody who comes from like this purely creative vision baked in.

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Like, and again, I, I think like the, it's not, it's not, it's not like one or the other, it's a bit of both. But, um, yeah, I don't know. Do you, like do you resonate with that?

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Like did you, do you think you came from a marketing angle, looking how to apply your marketing principles to like a personal project? Yeah, 100%.

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Like, um, I listened to like my first, my first million with, um, with Shane, uh, sorry, the guys that, that run it, and I think a lot of people who started newsletters have listened to that and, uh, kinda got inspired.

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But, um, I think only th- that really targets a, a niche group of people who are interested in entrepreneurship, uh, and ultimately building something. Um, so I think a creator, in my opinion, is somebody who,

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who is actively creating versus consuming. Um- Mm-hmm... and it's so easy to consume. It's so easy to get trapped in consumption.

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Um, but to like take that risk to actually build something or to put yourself out publicly and do something like that, um, I, I think that's a creator. It doesn't mean you have to be super successful.

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It doesn't mean you have to like, uh, achieve a certain target. But like I think somebody who just, uh, puts new information out into the world, um, i- is, I would consider them a creator. Yeah. I, I like that.

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So the definition that like I kind of set for myself a few weeks ago before I'd done a bunch of interviews, and it, it still kind of holds, but I'm starting to change it. I need to reevaluate it.

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But it's like, it's like a three-pronged thing where, uh, and they're kind of ranked. So number one is a person who is consistently creating content and putting it out online for an audience.

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Number two is they're, it's an unmediated connection between the person and their audience. So like a journalist might have, you know, a newsletter that is just theirs, and they're a creator in that capacity.

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But if they're just a journalist publishing a column in The New York Times every week, not a creator 'cause it's mediated by an editor, by a business, by all these interests. Uh, and third is,

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um, they're monetizing, whether it's directly through like a paid subscription or selling courses or, or even just like, you know, to get ahead in your career and you're like trying to build a public presence.

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Like that one- For sure... obviously is much more loose. But yeah, that's, I don't know, that's kind of the definition I've, I've gotten to. Do you agree with that? Yeah, totally.

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Uh, I li- I like the journalist who is currently actively working and then sets aside their own project. Mm-hmm.

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I feel like the risk on that end is like they, say you work for The New York Times, but you have your own, your own newsletter.

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Um, if you write something incorrect in The New York Times, they're gonna blame The New York Times and then you. But if you do it in your own newsletter, they're blaming you. Um, so yeah, it's, it's interesting.

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It's super interesting. Ooh, yeah.

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So that's actually something I, another thing I'm thinking about a lot is like this idea of like, like The New York Times has a ton of editorial rules and principles and et cetera, whereas, uh, you know, anybody writing a newsletter might have like an idea of what they will do, what they won't do, what they will say, like a style guide, but probably none of it is like written down or codified in any other way.

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Totally. Um, but I'm curious, like when you were doing AI for Work, uh, which we maybe after this we should get into what that was and et cetera. For sure. Uh, when you were doing that, did you have like...

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How did you-... conceptualize your accountability to your audience? Or like, did you write that down- Yeah... or was this just all in your head? I knew the main thing that I wanted to do was just provide value.

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I knew that if I could provide value, uh, people would share the content and, uh, that would be the, uh, I focused on that being the most important channel for growth.

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It's like if I could do something that actually benefits people, um, it would be so much easier to grow this thing, um, than doing something that looks a little more generic. Yeah. Um. That makes sense.

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So yeah, I, I did lots of, lots of user polls, um, tons of emails, uh, between me and my, um, between me and my users. I used to...

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Like when I first started, I, I sent an email to every single person that subscribed, and I was just like, "Hey, I'm your new best friend in AI. Like, yo, what are you working on? What are you doing?"

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Um, and that just like it skyrocketed the number of people who joined, who like added me on LinkedIn. Um, I actually had real conversations with real people and met so many people in the AI space. Um,

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but yeah, just kind of got a grasp of like what people are actually working on or what they're interested in. Um- Yeah. Uh, and yeah. That's, that's awesome.

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Uh, and I, I wanna, I wanna jump into that, but I also don't wanna get ahead of, ahead of myself here.

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Going back, so a second ago you talked about, you know, listening to My First Million, and I think, I think I've interviewed about 10 people for this series so far, and three or four of you have said, "I was inspired to start a newsletter by My First Million."

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So let's go back to like, let's, let's talk like the full AI for work story, and let's start at the beginning, beginning though. Yeah.

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So, you know, you're, you're listening to the podcast My First Million and you're like, "I wanna start a newsletter." Where do we go from there? And why, actually, why was it so inspiring? Was it the exits?

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Is it that it's like a lottery you can win through hard work? What is it? I'm employed full-time. I've always wanted to be an entrepreneur, uh, right the process.

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Um, but when they started talking about newsletters and they started talking about like, um, just the overall benefits of it, the ease of getting one started, uh, how fast some of them move, um, that's when I started to get interested in it, 'cause my initial thought was like, "No way.

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No way are newsletters crushing it in 2023." Um, but then as I just consumed more content and started subscribing to more newsletters, I was like, "Okay, there's real value here.

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Um, uh, you're definitely building a community." Um, so it, it was just such a low friction opportunity to start. Um, Reddit, it costs very little to get started.

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I could get my first 2,500 subscribers, uh, not pay anything for the platform. Um, so like from an idea perspective, there was, there was no barrier to entry. Um, uh, I was ready to go.

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I was already interested on the topic that I wanted to do. Um, so I would say that was what enticed me, was like I saw the opportunity. Uh, they validated it by just talking about it.

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Um, I started to do more research on it, specifically, um, the hustle that, uh, uh, Sam started, and I subscribed to it, I paid for it, and I was like, "Damn, this is a really good product."

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Like, um, so then that, that just inspired me and it was just like, okay, there's such a low-hanging fruit.

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Um, the trend around AI is so, is so big right now, and I personally am so obsessed with it, like it, it just makes natural sense for me to do so. Um, so yeah, I just gave it a shot.

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Uh, well, so talking about the trend of AI, I interviewed somebody for a newsletter for the issue that came out a few weeks ago, this guy Martin Crow- Yeah, Martin... AI tool report. Yeah. Yeah.

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And he said something, uh, that was interesting, 'cause I-- to me it's like, you know, a- when, when something is so trending it's like risky to, to start in it because there's so much competition.

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And he said that, like he's... I think he started in March of 2023, was it? And he said if he'd started just two months later, he don't, doesn't think it would've worked.

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Uh, you know, that proven wrong by the fact that you started like five months later, maybe not five months, but you started a few months later and it paid out for you, so, or it worked out for you.

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So like why, what, what was it? Like you knew you were entering such a crowded field. What were you- Yeah... how did you deal with that? Okay.

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So I knew I was entering into a super competitive, um, field and just a, I read that article. Fantastic job- Yeah... on that article. Thank you. Amazing job to Martin, like that's epic.

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I, I, after I read it, I was like, "Damn, I should've just sold. [laughs] I should've monetized this thing harder." Um, but um, yeah.

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Okay, so what I saw was, um, I saw that they were all growing pretty quickly, uh, like just from their public posts on, uh, on Twitter and so on.

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Um, but then I subscribed to so many of them, and I, I honestly just wasn't impressed, um, with the quality.

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Um, I thought it was a lot of just like summarization, uh, which was totally cool, but like for somebody who's on Twitter for most of the day, uh, it was, it just wasn't high value to me.

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And I was, and I was thinking to myself, 'cause like I was using ChatGPT a lot- Mm... uh, at this point, uh, especially from a marketing perspective.

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And, um, when I would talk to other people, they would tell me that they're using it a lot too, and then I would compare the work that I'm getting and what they're getting. Like, well, you're not using it right.

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Um, so I felt like I had something that I could share with people. Um, and then I was quickly proven wrong, like my, my content wasn't that good.

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Um, so then I had to reiterate it and improve it and improve it and improve it. Uh, and then ultimately I landed on, on something, um, that, uh, that was worthwhile.

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Um, so I ended up creating like my own style of prompting, um, that ended up being super useful and it ended up like helping a lot of people, uh, get some really high quality work out of ChatGPT.

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Um, so I felt like, hey, if I could do something a little bit better than summarizing content, um, uh, maybe talking about prompting, maybe talking about the techniques that I'm learning, um, it would be of higher value.

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And then, and then it ended up being proven right. Um, that was the case. So I think the trend, 100% you should be going after the trend, right? It just- Mm. It just makes the, um, what, what's the saying?

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Like a rising tide lifts all boats. It's so much easier to be successful when there's more s- demand than supply. Um- Yeah... and the opposite is also true. Yeah. Like a, a couple things there.

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One, like I, I agree with you that like maybe it's intimidating, but at least like when there is so much out there, like you know what the bar is that you have to surpass, and it's like, okay, like I just know I have to put in like X hours of work every day or every week or whatever to like make the thing that's better than that.

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So it's like I know how far I have to go, it's just like am I willing and able to, to go there- Yeah... and like push there? Which, which m- you know, not always the case.

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Um, but so how long did it take you to go from like-Okay. I like AI and I wanna start a newsletter, but it's not working out. Like, I'm trying it, it's-it's, nobody cares.

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How long did it take to get to people caring and, like, getting your first, let's say... Let's, let's maybe let's talk about in terms of, like, getting your first subscriber- Yeah...

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and then getting your tenth subs- you know, like, tenth subscriber, your hundredth, and then, like, when you knew, like, "All right. I've got it locked." For sure. Okay.

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So I first started, and I had a whole different name for the whole thing. It was called Work AI. Um, and, um, uh, I-I just started by posting on LinkedIn. I was just like, "Hey, I'm starting this newsletter.

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I'm gonna talk about AI." And I kinda just copied what I saw other people doing in the sense of, like, summarizing information. And my LinkedIn reach was so low, um, nobody subscribed.

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[chuckles] I mean, my wife didn't subscribe- [laughs]... best friends didn't subscribe. And I was like, "Okay, clearly this isn't, isn't worthwhile for anybody."

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Um, and then I think it was like, uh, I-I listened to two videos that, um, that really just, like, um, kinda shifted my mindset.

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Um, the first one was a old Peter Thiel video from, like, way back in the day, and he was talking about how AI is gonna be disruptive, but it's gonna be, like, not that important unless they can figure out a use case around work.

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Um, so I was like, "Damn, a-a work use case makes a lot of sense," and, uh, like, work-- I've already had this one called Work AI 'cause I was in marketing and I was using it almost daily, but I was like, "What if I could figure out other people's work?"

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[chuckles] Like, uh, if ChatGPT can do other people's work. Uh, and then the second one was just, um, going back to some old Hormozi videos that were in my playlist. And, uh, his, um, his videos around, like, um, um...

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I'm losing my train of thought here, but, like, the, um, irresistible offers. A hundred. Yeah, yeah. You- Yeah... mentioned that, yeah. Yeah.

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So it's just like how do you, how do you create an offer that is, like, um, stupid to say no to?

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Um, so then I was like, okay, the demand is gonna be around work, um, and if I just talk to my audience and figure out what people are struggling with, it's like how do I actually use this for work?

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That-that's when it kind of struck me. It's like if I can figure out how to build a lead magnet, um- Mm-hmm...

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that makes it easy for people to give their email to me, uh, I don't have to post on social, I don't have to have a large network, um, and I could get them to come to me.

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Um, a-and then that's when it took, I would say, uh, about a month.

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A month of, like, lots of sleepless nights, [chuckles] a lot of weekends, um, going through-- I think I probably spent about 1,000 bucks in API credits, like, with OpenAI trying to figure out this method of prompting.

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Um, but then once I got it, I was like, "Oh, shit. I got something good here." Um- I mean, a month and $1,000 isn't really that bad to, like, prove out a business idea ultimately, right? For sure. For sure.

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Uh, yeah, no, it's definitely not. But, um, uh, I would say I started with, uh, a s-shoestring budget. Um, it was all... Uh, it was an experiment. Um, I had a new baby at the time, so my wife was like, "Yo, really?

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Like, you're really gonna spend this much time on something that doesn't make any money, [chuckles] uh, that you have no idea how you're gonna grow it?"

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Um, so yeah, it was definitely, I would say, a risk, um, in time, but, um, I'm glad it ended up working out. [chuckles] Yeah. $1,000, you know, you could've bought a nice fancy new car seat or something. Um- Exactly.

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Exactly. [laughs] Yeah. [laughs] Uh, what was I gonna ask? Um- Mm-hmm... okay, yeah.

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So when we were first emailing, you mentioned, like, this TikTok thing that helped you grow a lot, which I'd love to hear more about that. Yeah.

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Because to me, like, the idea of, like, Tik- you know, using TikTok to grow a newslet- TikTok is just a n- a notoriously a difficult platform to convert unless you're, like, selling- For sure...

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consumer goods, or now there's TikTok Shop, et cetera. So how, how did you use TikTok to get people to subscribe to your newsletter, and how many subscribers did you drive with that? Okay. [clears throat] So

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I started out, like, I was like, "Okay, I need to promote my content." [clears throat] I created my own TikTok channel, and I just was so bad at creating content, uh, specifically, like, video content.

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Um, there were people that actually comment. They'd be like, "Hey, you should improve your speech, you-- or your tonality on this." And I was like, "Oh, man, this is embarrassing."

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Um, so what I did is I just started DM-ing, uh, all the top creators in the space. Um, and then ultimately,

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there was this one guy, his name is Savity Digital, um, and, uh, he ended up-- I ended up commenting on one of his, one of his videos 'cause he was talking about prompting, and I was just like, "Yo, uh, th-that prompt isn't very good.

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Like, you should check out this website." Um, a-at this point I've already created the site and I'm just trying to share the website with others.

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Um, and then he ended up responding and he was just like, "Oh, damn, like, that's amazing." He ended up making a video about it, like, within an hour. Um, and the video just immediately took off.

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Um, he was just like, "These are the best prompts I've ever seen. You have to check it out." He showed a quick example. Um, and his channel, I believe at the time, had about 7,000 subscribers.

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Um, and the video ended up getting about half a million views in, like, 48 hours. Um, so then from there, I would say, like, it just started taking off.

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I think I-- the, the best day was probably about, like, 1,500 people signed up on that initial first day. Um, and then I was like, "Oh, damn, I gotta keep doing this." So I just started messaging way more, uh, TikTokers.

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Um, and, uh, no-- honestly, nobody else did anything. Um, uh, it took maybe about another week or two, uh, where another guy saw a po-- like, uh, like, came across it and then I messaged him.

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He ended up making a video about it and ended up getting another 300,000 subscribers. Uh, sorry, another 300,000 views. Um,

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so it was just taking that approach of just, like, reaching out saying, "Hey, like, you should definitely check this out." Um, but I, I don't think it's like...

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Well, one, I don't think TikTok is, um, is a bad platform to, to promote on. Um, and I, I was super surprised by the caliber of individuals who signed up through it.

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Uh, like executives, professionals, uh, so people from all walks of life, um, from all different geographies- Mm-hmm... um, um, signed up, uh, through TikTok.

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Um, so then I just doubled down on that and then I ended up just talking to those users, figuring out what they were kinda using it for, um, and then started building it.

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That continuously reached out to people on, on TikTok. It was super hard to get anybody to do anything about it. Uh, but then Savity Digital, um, he ended up doing a second video,

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which once again went viral, um, and ended up getting, like, 400,000 views. Um, and those two TikToks that he did, along with, like, a few others that, uh, others came across with, um-Just helped the whole thing grow.

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Um- Wow.... people started searching the website on Google, and as a result, the website's, uh, organic traffic across the board started to go up. Um, and then I started to,

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um, when people signed up for the website, I would ask like, "Hey, where did you find it?" Um, it, it started off- Manually, like or did you have a survey? Yeah.

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Uh, I had like, um, on my sign-up sheet, I had like the, you have to put your name, your email, your job title, and you have to give me why you, like, how you figured, uh, why you're here.

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Did you make it required to, to sign up? I did. You had... Okay, yeah. I did. And then, um, it started off being all, uh, like, like all TikTok.

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So then after that, I started noticing a lot more SEO started happening just naturally from other people searching, searching AI for work.

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Um, and then from there it started going to like, I started to hear about it from conferences. People at work told me about it, my boss told me about it, uh, colleagues. And then I was like, "Okay, phew.

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This is, this is doing exactly what I hoped it would do." Um, uh, but yeah, TikTok was the initial driver that, uh, really pushed it.

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And, um, till the day that I sold it, there were still people coming through from those TikToks. Wow, that's, that's really impressive. Besides, besides TikTok, what else worked for you?

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Like, what were the other levers you were pulling that really worked? Yeah. So after TikTok, um, started to take off there, the second thing was, uh, just SEO.

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Uh, so because I had the website, um, as my main, uh, driver, um, I started to make content just, uh, like through blogging.

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And, um, my, my strategy there was just like, how do I go after the long-tail keywords, um, for the different, uh, categories that I have prompts for?

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Um, so there would be articles about like lawyers, how, how to use ChatGPT to write a contract, how to use ChatGPT to create a lesson plan for teachers.

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Um, and those long-tail keywords, uh, to this date are still ranking really well, um, and are driving a ton of traffic.

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Um, so yeah, I went, I went long tail and, um, uh, I, I, I personally think it's the initial boost of people searching AI for work, um- Mm-hmm...

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from those TikTok videos that helped Google index it and figure out that, uh, the site was relevant. Um, so yeah, SEO was the second driver. Um, and then from there I started to try to optimize things like referrals. Um,

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uh, but I wouldn't say that it was like a major driver. I think I could have continued to work on that.

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Now I'm just search- I have to search AI for work in Google and s- and see what, see what, see what pops up, 'cause it's like such a- The same... obvious. Yeah. It, it's such an obvious thing to search.

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It's, this is the, is it ai.work for aiforwork.co? That's what it is. That's the one. That's the one. Okay, cool. I, I have to admit, I, I looked into the newsletter, but I, I hadn't actually looked at this. Um, okay.

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This, this makes so much more sense. This makes so much more sense. Yeah. My question now then is like, what... So you've got this site that's this archive of like, of, of prompts you engineered and stuff.

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You've got the site and then you've got the newsletter. What's the relationship? Did, did the newsletter come first or was the website first? What was the, how did that work? The newsletter came first.

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Um, but I didn't get any subscribers. Um, uh, I got a few, like a, a couple friends, a couple contacts across LinkedIn. But, um, once I realized that then I was like, okay, I need to create lead magnets.

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Um, so if I create a lead magnet, where am I gonna put it? Um, I was like, I could put it on Beehiiv, um, and just like create some sort of like webpage there.

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Um, but if I create a resource that, um, uh, I build online, I could go through SEO, um, uh, I could share it in many different ways. I could put it in directories and so on. So then I just created the website.

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Um, uh, I created it on Webflow. Um, and I ended up putting a sign-up sheet, and then I connected the whole thing through Make, through the Beehiiv API.

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Um, uh, it was a little challenging at first 'cause this would be like one of the first things that I built. Um, but that's how it ended up working out.

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So I was like, I need to build something that can get people to give me their email.

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Um, so then the, the irresistible offer is just like if you're an employee at a company and you know that ChatGPT is gonna save you time, which everybody's telling you, um, it's simply one click of your job title and you're gonna get a library of prompts.

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I think that's enough for people to give an email out. Um, and then from there it's just like, can I write newsletters where they're gonna like it enough to stay subscribed and to like engage with it?

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And, um, that's the part where, um, I, I put a lot more effort in after I built the site. Yeah.

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No, that's, that's awesome 'cause the, looking at the website, it's like, it's great and so rich with information and like, it's, I don't know.

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It's, it's one of those things where like I always, when, whenever somebody signs up for Creator Spotlight and they ask me like, or they're like, "Hey, I'm starting this newsletter.

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I have this idea, like, do you have any advice?" My number one piece of advice is always like, well, there's two. One is like, figure out a niche, like a very specific niche, and then the second is just do it.

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Like Nike style, you know? Like you literally just start and then maybe a few weeks into starting you're like, "Oh, I should start a website."

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And then maybe five months later, you know, somebody buys your website and your newsletter. It's like, because you just started a newsletter about a thing you were interested in. Totally.

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Like you don't know until you go. Like it's as simple as that. Yeah, exactly.

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I also, I was doing a ton of research in the, uh, earlier stages when I was like, okay, there's clearly an opportunity here, and there was a Creator Spotlight on a gentleman by the name of Saeed, uh, who runs, I believe, Superpower, um- Mm-hmm...

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uh, AI. And I found out that he started his newsletter through a Chrome extension.

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So he had a Chrome extension that, uh, uh, basically, uh, adds a user interface on top of ChatGPT, and he ended up getting like 400,000 subscribers in a, in a year.

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Um, and I read his Creator Spotlight and I was like, okay, clearly I'm not the only person thinking like this. Um, uh, and at that point I was like, okay, this is gonna be the right approach.

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But through this process, like I've had the opportunity to talk to so many other newsletter operators, creating a lead magnet is probably one of the most important things for an early stage, uh, newsletter.

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If they're not gonna be dedicating time, energy, and effort towards advertising, just think deeply about what your user can't say no to, and make their lives a little bit easier, uh, with a resource.

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And that resource will get shared amongst community groups like, um, Shopify, uh, has a channel on YouTube called Learn with Shopify, and they had a video about ChatGPT and they just mentioned AI for Work.As one of the, the ways to do really well, and I was like, "I've never mentioned it to them, I've never talked to them."

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Um, but they would have never done that if it was just like a basic landing page. Um- That's amazing. Um, can you talk more just about lead magnets? 'Cause I, I imagine most of our...

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not most, but some of our, you know, listeners might not know what a lead magnet is. Um, what is a lead magnet? It's providing a resource, um, a, a free resource in exchange for an email.

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So why did you make the decision to do this on Beehiiv as opposed to, like, Substack, ConvertKit, any, any of those other ones? Yeah. Uh, I didn't even think about it, man.

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[chuckles] I, I was following Beehiiv for some time and, like, I've been just watching, uh, Tyler's posts, uh, across LinkedIn and all other channels. Um, so I honestly, I didn't even think about it.

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I love the design that you, that the team was doing. I love the, the overall aesthetics, the website. Um, so like, uh, my initial thought was like, I don't like Substack, like the way it looks.

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Um, I, I just didn't like that. [clears throat] A Mailchimp, I've had experience using like a Mailchimp or like other emails just through my work, and, uh, I didn't wanna build this on Klaviyo.

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I definitely didn't wanna build this on a Mailchimp. Um, uh, and Substack, um, it just wasn't even a question, man. It just like- Yeah... yeah, Beehiiv looks like a modern, a modern platform. I agree.

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I've used, I've used a bunch of the other ones. Mailchimp is- Um, but also pricing... absolutely the worst. Yeah. Oh, yeah. Mm-hmm. That's what you said, the first twenty-five hundred- Yeah. [chuckles]... let's do it.

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Yeah. That's true. Uh, yeah, so more about the newsletter, uh, and like the actual design of the newsletter, the, the sections, the concept behind of that, uh, which the...

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I wanna give you kudos for the progress bar, uh, design, like, as like your- Oh, sweet... the rule break. Yeah. I really like that. I don't-- Maybe that, maybe that's been done, I don't know. Thank you.

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I don't think I had ever seen it as such, and obviously you scroll through, you know, sub- any website these days and there is like a, a progress bar. But I don't think I'd ever seen anybody convert it to email.

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So, um, yeah, how, how, where did you, did you, how did you come up with that, and like, how did you come up with like the newsletter design structure?

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Uh, I would say that, uh, the design from like the first one to the last one, completely different, and it just kept improving. Um, but I can't take credit for the progress bar.

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That was, uh, that was inspired from Yellow Brick Road. Um, so it's another newsletter in the finance space, which is one of my favorite newsletters. They do such a good job.

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Um, I reached out to the creator, like the creator on that one, super nice guy. Uh, but yeah, I think what he did with his newsletter, um, was just amazing. He designed it so nicely.

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Uh, he's gamified it to a degree where it's like, I, I'm assuming improves, uh, the engagement significantly.

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Um, but after just looking through, I would say, hundreds and hundreds and hundreds of newsletters, um, to see like what designs I like, um, that's where, that's where I got the progress bar from.

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Question about using, about using AI for work. Uh- Yeah.... obviously you used AI for the, for the images and such. Did you use it- Yeah... in the writing production? Like, how did you make sure, how did...

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A- and if so, how did you make sure to do it in a way that like felt, you know, fresh and not like somebody just, you know, putting in a prompt and copy-pasting whatever? Honestly, I didn't.

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I didn't use AI to, to generate the actual content. Um, uh, I don't think that it's ready for that, right?

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Like it's just, the ChatGPT itself, um, maybe like the new tools might be like Anthropic's, uh, new Claude, but, um, everyone knows when you're using AI for, for, for it.

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So like, um, there was a tweet I read a while back where it's like, "Hey, in the world of AI, uh, tweet like you text, um, to stand out."

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Uh, and it's like, okay, conversational tone, and that's so hard to get right with, uh, with ChatGPT.

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Um, so the only way that I ended up using like AI in the content production standpoint was, um, um, just editing the content. Um- Mm.

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Uh, you know, I love Beehiiv, but the, the spelling and grammar check thing does not work very well. Um, so I had to just, I just created a GPT that, uh, that edits, uh, my content.

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Um, and I still find spelling errors, and it makes me cringe when I do so, but, uh, uh, it is what it is. Yeah. Yeah. No, I mean, you, you gotta, you gotta just like let the spelling errors go. I like- Mm-hmm...

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I, I, I, I personally don't use, uh, AI in my, in my writing, but like I'll... Especially like when I, when I, when I do this, um, I've tried to use it to clean up interview transcripts before, and it just- Yeah...

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it just butchers it. Like, as much as I try to like, "Please, like only remove," or, or whatever it is, I just like, it always just changes the meaning. Um, but anyways- Totally... ne- neither here nor there.

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Um- [chuckles]... moving on. Do you have any specific tips that you would give people, uh, who also write newsletters?

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Like one or two things that are like, you know, I, I always like include this little steal this tactic section in Creator Spotlight. What's the tactic people should steal from you?

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Uh, personally email, uh, five subscribers a day, like, uh, at the very minimum. Um, say, if somebody responds to your poll, um, ask them, ask them more questions.

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Um, if somebody says something negative about your poll, ask them how it could be better. Um, but I think ultimately your, your end goal is to figure out how to get somebody to recommend your newsletter to somebody else.

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Mm. Um, that's, that's genuinely what you're trying to figure out.

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Um, and I like just getting into the space and connecting with so many creators in this space now, um, like I, I talk to them and I'm just like, "Oh my God, I have 20 ideas for you. You have to experiment with this."

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Um, the thought process should be how do you give them something that they'd be willing to share? Uh, so make it free for them, make it willing, that they would make it s- super easy for them to share.

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Um, and there's so many, so many things, and you don't have to think too hard about it.

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So an example would be like, um, I came across a church, like, um, a Christian church newsletter, um, that had very few subscribers, and I just had so many different ideas.

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It's like, okay, you could create a prompt or like some sort of ChatGPT thing on how to write sermons, how to, um, uh, how to utilize, um, how to utilize it to edit your sermons. Um, th- that's just like...

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And then you could just cold email people, "Hey, like you've heard about ChatGPT, I write this newsletter. I don't wanna waste your time, but, um, uh, I have this thing that's super useful to like 200 of my subscribers.

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Just wanted to share it with you." They click it. Okay, it's a lead magnet. [chuckles] And boom, done.

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Like- YeahThis-- So i-it's interesting, you're ta- you know, I mean, you were doing the cold DMs, cold comments on TikTok, cold emails, whatever.

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You're clearly, like, somebody who is so determined and, like, willing to put in the work, and I think... I don't know.

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I think a lot of times people think, like, when somebody listens to, like, uh, My First Million or whatever, it's like, "Oh, that's easy. I can make a newsletter and make money off of it."

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And obviously, it's a ton of work. Um, so my question is, how much time on average do you think you were spending per week on AI for Work?

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Uh, and like, how much time do you think, like, baseline somebody would need to invest in, uh, let's say a weekly newsletter to make it good, to make it work, to achieve goals? Yeah.

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I wasn't the most disciplined in regards to sticking with my own schedule, uh, or keeping up with a really- Full-time job too, right?... like strong. Yeah, full-time job, new dad.

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Um, but those are just excuses you can figure out a way around. [chuckles] Those aren't excuses.

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[laughs] Um, I think, uh, I think at the bare minimum, a minimum of three hours a week, um, to write a weekly newsletter, uh, would be necessary, and you genuinely have to be passionate 'cause, like, kinda like what you said about the, um, the TikTok creator that you're interviewing.

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Um, that trend of authentic content is so hard to fake, and it's so easy to resonate with because we as consumers at this point, we know when something has been, like, catered to us.

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Um, and we could just see with the data that we don't respond to that anymore. Um, which is why asking somebody about how much they get paid is so interesting to so many people. Um,

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so it's like, yeah, you can't be fake about it. Um, a, a minimum of three hours, and you have to love what you do. Yeah. I re- the, the loving what you do I think is like, that's almost another one I would put in there.

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I'd said those two pieces of advice I gave of like just start and also, like, have a niche. I think the loving what you do has to be third.

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Like, I talked to somebody last week who they have a finance newsletter, and it's like, "Oh, we're just talking about this with our friends anyways."

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Or a few weeks ago, I interviewed a guy who has a fantasy Premier League, uh, a, a newsletter, and he's like, "I'm already consuming all this information, so like to, you know, boil it down into a newsletter is, is not so much more."

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Like, I don't know.

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You-- A couple times during this conversation, I've thought of, uh, like things you've said it made me think of the meme where there's like the guy mining for diamonds and then there's the other guy who's giving up and he's, like, about to hit the diamonds.

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Um, which I think is so much what this is.

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Like you got, you gotta be able, you gotta be willing to just keep going, like, no matter what 'cause it's just what you're gonna do on like, you know, 7:30 PM on a Thursday night anyways, right? Um- Exactly. Moving on.

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I wanna talk about monetization before you sold it. Um, like obviously you had some ads. I think-- So I- if I'm correct, unless you, unless some were deleted, you had an ad in your third newsletter.

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But actually, that is a question I'm curious. There's 21... Looking at the archive of the AI for Work, AI for Work Beehiiv page, there's 21 newsletters. Is that, is that all there was? I think it was probably less.

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I think it was probably- What?... a lot less. Um, yeah. Wow. It just like, um, one, I wasn't good at the maintaining of it, and then two, I really didn't wanna post like share a crappy newsletter. Like, um- Yeah...

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that would've just hurt my heart. Um, and I think that's a big problem with creators who, uh, or

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I think that's a big problem with me 'cause like I think a lot of other creators would just be like, "Yo, I have to publish, so I will."

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Um, but I was just like, I was like, "Yo, I can't publish something I don't wanna read myself." Um, so I really struggled with that. I, I have, I have no advice on that.

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That's definitely something I need to learn is just like, how do you do more consistent content when, um, you don't find the content very useful? Um, so yeah, I struggled with, um, with the timeline. But, um-

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Well, I guess, yeah, no, that-- First off, that's all really interesting, um, because I, I really resonate with what you're saying. Like, I agree- Yeah... if it's not good, don't put it out. And like- Don't put it out...

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I mean, writing this newsletter, writing Creator Spotlight, like I, every Friday morning, I'm, I'm putting one out.

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So it's like, it's, it's a lot, it takes a lot of work, and it's like sometimes some take more longer to write than others or like takes longer to like find the next person I should interview because I want it to be well curated.

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Sometimes that takes longer. Like, sometimes the conversation will like meandered a lot and I-- it was a really fun conversation, but then it's like, how do I like boil this down?

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And like, it just like to, like to me, in my own experience, getting the consistency is just about like you have that deadline and so like that is what is the structure that you're following.

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And then everything else, it's like you might just have to put in an extra 10 hours of work to like make this issue good, uh, which is- Yeah... hard.

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And like, you know, when you have a full-time j- like for me, this is my full-time job, so that's, you know, re- uh, it's- Totally... it's kinda built into the thing.

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Um, but anyways, the question was like, I-- it looks like you had your first sponsored newsletter, uh, in the third, the third issue on October 5th- Yeah... um, with spon- presented by AE Studio.

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So how did you get this on your third issue? So that was with, um, there was a tweet from Priya on your team, I believe that was her name. Um, and she was in charge of, uh, ads. So she made a tweet.

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She's like, "Hey, we have a couple ad spots left." Uh, I've never had an ad at this point. I was like, "Please." [chuckles] Um, so I just emailed her, um, and she's like, "Okay, cool. All good to go.

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Uh, if you could just publish it by this date." And I was, "Okay, cool." Um, I think I made about 60 bucks on that, on that first one. Um, and at, at that point I was just like, okay, there's an opportunity here.

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Like, this is- Yeah... this is real. Um- How many, how many subscribers did you have, by the way, at that point? Do you know? I think it was close to like seven or eight thousand at that point. Oh, wow. Oh, no, sorry.

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That's not true 'cause I like, I didn't-- I think I started publishing when I had seven or eight thousand. I think I had probably about 10 to 12 at that point. Wait, wait.

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You didn't even start publishing the, the newsletter until you had seven or eight thousand? I had one, like I had one- Okay...

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but then I didn't do anything weekly or, uh, ongoing, but I was emailing each person automatically. Like there was- Yeah... an automatic personalized email that would go out, uh, for every subscriber.

244
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So yeah, there was communication, um, between me and the subscribers, but the, there wasn't like a weekly newsletter that was, uh, on a good schedule. So like I started this thing in, I think it was June, July. Mm-hmm.

245
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And the third one came out in October. So, um-Uh, yeah. That's insane. That's almost like-- I mean, uh, it's like stretching the definition of what a newsletter is.

246
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It's like, "Sign up for this, and, and like, I will talk to you directly like at least once, but like don't expect a, a, you know, a regular newsletter."

247
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That, that-- obviously it works though, and I actually, I do wanna touch on that for a second, like, 'cause you said you hand emailed every person, which I, which I respect. And like, whenever anybody- Sure...

248
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replies to Creator Spotlight, if it's more than just like, you know, "Okay," or if it, if it's, if it's an actual like message, I'll reply and like I really enjoy, I enjoy doing that.

249
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So I don't know, how, how was that for you? And like y- you must have sent thousands of emails to people, right? Yeah. Okay. So there was automation involved in this aspect of course. Of course.

250
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So what would happen was as soon as they would sign up, um, they would get an email that would just say, "Hey, you're one of my first thousand subscribers, and I just recently launched this thing.

251
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Um, you could consider me one of your new friends in the AI space. Um, I'd love to just hear how you're using AI today in your work."

252
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Um, and then anybody who would reply, then we would go into a nice in-depth conversation, but there were hundreds and hundreds and hundreds of replies. Um, and, um, uh, but yeah, I was sending out thousands of emails.

253
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Um, like, uh, my email domain got blocked, um, from Google, uh, like twice, um, because it was just like, "You have exceeded." And I had no idea what I was doing. Um, so I was just sending an email to everybody.

254
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Um, and there was little variation in that initial email. Um, but the messaging was just like, "Hey, uh, you're one of my first few subscribers. I'd love to just hear about like why and what you do." That's smart. No.

255
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I, I really like that too. It's like that-- I mean, if I receive that, that's like warms me to you and it's like, "Oh, I, I gotta reply to this. This guy is like-" Yeah. "... I wanna help him out." Um- He's trying.

256
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[chuckles] Yeah, exactly. Yeah. He's trying his best, uh, and it's relatable. Um, okay. But going back to so ads, monetization. So- Yeah. [clears throat]... obviously this story ends with you selling the newsletter.

257
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But yeah, be- between- Yeah... starting and the selling, how else did you monetize? Was it just more ads? What was the, what's the story there? Yeah.

258
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I thought about this so many different ways of like how I could go ahead and monetize this. Um, and I just kept running into the easiest method would just be using the Beehiiv platform. Um,

259
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but even with that, like I think the most I made on an ad, uh, through the Beehiiv platform at one point was close to like two hundred bucks on one send, uh, which was wonderful.

260
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Uh, and if I could just be more consistent on sending them, um, it would make, it would, it would be, it would be great.

261
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Um, so it was really to a point where I was close to like the end of the year, um, of the first year, or like the calendar year, uh, and I was invited to the Beehiiv Slack community.

262
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Um, and I saw there was a monetization channel, and I messaged the, the group. I was just like, "Hey, I have this newsletter. I'm getting a ton of new subscribers today, but I'm not monetizing this thing effectively."

263
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Um, and immediately within like two minutes, I got a message that's like, "Hey, um, would you consider just selling it?" And I was like, "Uh, maybe." He's like, "What would your price be?"

264
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And I s- I told him my, my price would be, and he said, "Cool, let's do it." Um, and I was like, "Okay. That's sick." [chuckles] Uh, then I was like, "Can I trust this guy?" Um,

265
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but yeah, after a bunch of conversations, um, that's how the introduction got made. So like I was in the stage where I was really just learning how to optimize, uh, the monetization outside of the Beehiiv platform.

266
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But honestly, I think if you're consistent, um, with just sending out regular emails, the He- Beehiiv platform makes it so easy. It's like stupidly easy. Yeah.

267
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That's so amazing that you like did this thing without, without actually having like all, you know, a typical consistent newsletter. Like, that's so funny. Um, so I do wanna ask two questions about acquisition.

268
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Um, number one, looking at your background, I think the last full-time job on your LinkedIn, at least before you did this, was at a comp- a beauty company that got acquired. Yeah.

269
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Um, and obviously a company that you don't own being acquired is way different than a newsletter- For sure... business that you wrote being acquired.

270
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But I don't know, I'm just curious if there were any similarities in those experiences for you at all. So I was-- Okay. So the beauty company, um, was a friend of mine. He owned the company.

271
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Uh, we met in high school, and then he moved to Vancouver. He reached out to me, he's like, "Hey, what are you doing?" I was like, "Well, I just left my current job." And he's like, "Yo, come down here, check this out."

272
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Um, and we just clicked right away. Um, and we're like, "Yo, let's blow this up. Let's really make this big." Um, and one of the biggest drivers for that was just learning about new distribution channels.

273
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Um, so this brand sold on Amazon specifically, but we were able to, um, find new distribution channels that ended up costing us nothing.

274
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So like, uh, we-- my main focus was how do I acquire a customer for zero dollars, um, for a real brand? Uh, and that's kind of where my whole like mindset on lead magnets came into play. Yeah.

275
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So yeah, I learned an awful lot there. [chuckles] Yeah. Okay. Yeah. So the other thing is like, I think with, with a newsletter, one of the unique things about it is you send it out, and then you can't edit it.

276
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It's out there. And like, you know, you can- Yeah... on Beehiiv, you can go in, you can edit the post, and then it's updated on your archive.

277
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But anybody who has it in their inbox, has it in their inbox, and it's like, you know, this idea of like authorship, it with, with like you, you, you create something, but then it belongs to the audience.

278
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Does it belong to the... Et cetera, all that kinda thing. With- For sure...

279
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like selling your business, you're doing that on a whole another scale where it's like it's not an email, it's like an entire business that you built, that you created, that you pour yourself into, and now it's out there and somebody...

280
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it's somebody else's to, to change even and do with what they will. Um, like what's that experience like? Like are you, are you like, you know, watching it and like checking it out and like, "Oh, what's changed?"

281
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Et cetera, et cetera. What's it like, like the after you sell experience? So stressful, man. Like- [laughs]... this is your baby. [chuckles] Um- Exactly. Yeah, man, I watch it like a hawk.

282
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I, I literally watch it like a hawk. Um, I see every newsletter that they're pushing out now. Um, they're doing a great job. They're doing a, a wonderful job, like I can't complain on that end.

283
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Um, but like when I see something like Shopify putting it in their video and it's no longer owned by me, and people still message me on LinkedIn to this date where like, "Hey, I really love your prompts.

284
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I really love the newsletter." I don't own it anymore. [chuckles] Um, it, it's hard, I would say. Um, but I think that's because I put a lot of like-I put a lot of love into it, and I think like, um, it has to have soul.

285
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Uh, right? Like, and I, I think that could be a weakness for many people, um, whereas like just, just hit publish. Um, uh, but yeah, man, I...

286
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It-it's been challenging not, not owning it, 'cause I have so many ideas of like what I wanna do with it- Yeah. [laughs]... and like where I wanna take it now.

287
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Well, okay, so where you wanna take it now, I think you, you mentioned when we first, when we first talked that you, you, you do probably wanna start another newsletter. Yeah. I'd love to hear about that.

288
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Like, what's your m- what's your motivation for the next one? 'Cause now it's like it can't just be the same. Like, "Oh, I just wanna, you know, I care about AI and I wanna start a newsletter." You've, you've been there.

289
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You've learned. So what's- Yeah... what's next in terms of a next, your next newsletter? Yeah. Okay, so I think- And why do you wanna start another one? I think every business should have a newsletter.

290
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I think it's stupid not to. Um, right? Like, there's, there's... It's so hard to get in front of your own customer, which is so stupid.

291
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Like, uh, the fact that you could post on your Facebook page or on your Instagram and no one who follows you is gonna see it is, like, such a 2024 problem.

292
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[laughs] Um, so it's like, how do you actually get in front of people and actually get them to see it? Um, it's gonna be through email. Um, and how do you define your champions? It's people who open those emails.

293
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It's people who engage with those emails. Um, so yeah, I think every, every business on this planet should have a newsletter.

294
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Um, uh, and I think they should put effort into it, and I think they should build a community around it, and I think it pays dividends. Mm-hmm. So with that, of course I'll set up another newsletter.

295
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Um, but, um, like, I'm- my next projects, I'm focused on two things right now. Um, so, like, my first thing is, like, creating a TikTok agency, um, around organic content.

296
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Um, so creating a newsletter in that space, uh, I think is worthwhile, um, just because, like, uh, it's something that I'm interested in, it's something that I'm learning myself, uh, and I just see there's such a huge opportunity for, for so many brands around short form.

297
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And then the second one is around local newsletters. I just think there's such a big opportunity around local newsletters, especially in Canada.

298
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Um, I'm not sure if you're aware, but, um, in Canada, like, our, our news agencies here aren't allowed to post on Facebook anymore. Facebook just blocks their whole channel. I had no idea. Wow. Uh, yeah.

299
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[laughs] So, like, basically, um, the, the news, uh, like, the laws here change where they say, "Hey, Facebook, if you wanna share our, our stories or well-written stories, you need to pay us."

300
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And Facebook's like, "No, I don't. Like, I just won't show your content."

301
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Um, so Canadians don't have any social method of getting their news anymore, uh, which creates a ton of opportunity for, um, for newsletters in this space.

302
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Um, so I think, like, having a local newsletter for your specific city, town, or block, um, it just makes you such a powerful individual. Um, right? Like, you could do so much.

303
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If you had 10, 15, 20,000 people that actually read your local newsletter, that's real revenue that you can drive for small businesses and create real advertising opportunities.

304
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So I just feel like that's such a worthwhile thing to do as a side project. Um, so for anybody who doesn't have an idea of what newsletter to start, start a local newsletter. I love that.

305
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I'm actually talking to somebody who, who did that, uh, next week for, for this series. Oh, nice.

306
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I guess one question is other platforms and the arms of the business, so there's the AI for Work website, which is clearly the lead magnet and such a valuable asset in and of itself, and then there's the newsletter.

307
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And when I look, I'm looking right now at the, at the, the newsletter archive, the Beehive site, and there's the Twitter link, um, the LinkedIn link, YouTube, TikTok, Facebook, Instagram.

308
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And I looked at them all and, like, you clearly, you know, like I've done for newsletters in the past, you know, I've created, I've created, like, the social accounts, but maybe I don't use them as a placeholder, whatever.

309
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Was that something that stressed you out, not being on these other platforms? Like, how did you think of this, like, platform prioritization? Yeah, man.

310
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Of course, I had jealousy around, like, watching, um, Rowan from Runway, um, post on Twitter and get, like, 300,000 likes, um, right?

311
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Like, he's does such a good job on that, and it's just not a skill set that I was able to build in, in due time.

312
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It's something that I think many people practice and try to figure out, um, but it didn't come naturally to me, and nor did I think it comes naturally to any of the, the guys that are, that are just crushing it.

313
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I think it takes a lot of hard work and effort. Um, so I think, like, for me, it was just, like, focus on the channel that's working right now, uh, which is creating lead magnets.

314
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Um, because, like, the AI for Work was just one lead magnet. Uh, from there I built another lead magnet that was a business planner, uh, using AI, um, and that one took off really well as well.

315
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Um, and then I created, like, two or three that didn't take off, um, or nobody found value in. Um, but, um, uh, yeah, for me it was just, uh, focus on the channels that are working for you. Um,

316
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a-and, like, if your goal is to be like, "Hey, I'm gonna build a newsletter. I'm gonna build it on Twitter," I think many people are underestimating how hard it is to actually grow a social channel.

317
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Like, it does require a great deal of effort, experimentation, um, and I just don't think it's the lowest hanging fruit. Yeah. No, I agree. I mean, Martin from A- from AI Tool Report said the exact same thing.

318
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Like, he couldn't hack it on Twitter. Other people were doing it way better. He, it was too late to catch up, so he, you know, he had money to put into ads, so he did. Yeah. And that's, that worked. Yeah.

319
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I read that one. I was so impressed with what he ended up doing, and like, um, and I don't know, man, I, I came across him on LinkedIn with one of his posts had like 3,000, 4,000 shares.

320
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So I think he's pretty, uh, he's, uh, underestimating how good he was at that. Um, but yeah, man, I feel like the one area that I could have improved on was around paid- Mm...

321
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um, which is why I was very focused on, like, how do I monetize this better? Um, uh, because I think a lot of creators monetize through boosts and through, um, um, through, like, the, uh, SparkLoops- Mm-hmm...

322
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um, which makes a lot of sense. But, uh, because I was sending everybody to a lead magnet that was on a website, I wasn't able to put SparkLoop on it, uh, or, or the Beehive boost on it.

323
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I've been messaging on the, on the Slack group like, "Hey, when are you guys gonna introduce this?" But, um, uh, you know, hopefully soon. Um- Yeah... a-and yeah.

324
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The, I was very focused on trying to figure that out, uh, just before I sold it. Yeah. No, that makes sense.

325
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Is there anything that we haven't talked about that you'd like to talk about around, around your, your story with AI for Work?Okay, so I started building it in public by just posting it on LinkedIn. Um- Mm-hmm. Yeah.

326
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Actually, let's talk about building in public. Sorry. Yeah. So I, I started building it in public, uh, 'cause like, uh, one, I, I never really dedicated too much time and energy building a social profile.

327
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Um, but I wanted to build it in public, uh, for a coup- the, the main reason I wanted to build it in public was so that other people can really give me advice so I could learn faster. Um, and that didn't happen.

328
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What ended up happening was just like, um, a very big, like, encouragement fest. Like, "Oh, cool job. Great. We're supporting you." Then I look at my subscribers, I'm like, "No, you're not."

329
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[chuckles] "You're not supporting me." Um, so yeah. I, I had said, uh, like I was...

330
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my, my main goal was to build it in public, um, so that I could get community buy-in, uh, but also to get, just get advice from others, and I found that it was s- like, super vulnerable to build something in public.

331
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Uh, I'm gonna do it again, [chuckles] like, um, I'm for sure. I think anything I build, I'm gonna build it in public at this point. But

332
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I, I, I need to learn more about how others are benefiting from this, 'cause like I don't know if I... i- if it really helped me, um, versus like exposed me to more, um, sharing my ideas for others to take. Um, so yeah.

333
00:49:52.854 --> 00:50:03.484
I, I think building in public i- is super interesting, but even when I watch other people build in public on Twitter, I'm just not sure what the added benefits ended up being, uh, 'cause people don't tend to give you advice.

334
00:50:03.564 --> 00:50:09.203
Um, it, it tends to just be a lot of like clapping for you. Um, and it- Yeah... it felt fake at some point.

335
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Like, by the time I was near the end, end of that build in public phase, it just felt like, ugh, now I feel like I'm reporting accomplishments versus like really thinking through the problems, um, which is what I was hoping to do.

336
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That's, that's interesting. Um, I'm, I'm just trying to think. Like, I've, I've seen some people do it. I, you know, Tyler, the Beehive CEO, he's, he does it- For sure... he's really good at it.

337
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Um, I talked to this woman, Jade Bouffant Phillips, a few weeks ago for Creator Spotlight. She does it, and like for her, she doesn't have that many subscribers.

338
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It's 120, but it like, for her too, it's this thing where it's like for her, it helps her process things, where like every week she puts out this 2,500-word newsletter that has like a win, a loss, a few lessons, any resources she gathered, um, and like any hacks she figured out.

339
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Uh, and so for her, she was like, "It... This is a way for me to process this journey and like the difficulties of it." Um, and it's very vulnerable, right? And then, but she had also- Yeah...

340
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like tried to do it in the first place, um, just as like a founder advice thing, and it didn't work. There was no point to it. There was no, literally no point, like edge, you know?

341
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But then she changed it to this concept, 240 days to raise, and then that, that's what brought me in.

342
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Like actually, somebody came into Creator Spotlight as a new subscriber and told me about it, and I was like, "That's a cool concept, 240 days to raise." And that drew me in, you know?

343
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And then I was like, "Actually, I wanna talk to this person, 'cause this is, this is cool."

344
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The other thing, with advice, when you said that, it reminded me, it, it reminded me of the last time I applied for a job and, you know, I sent my resume and my, my portfolio site to a few different friends and stuff, and they'd be like, maybe they'd have one or two items of feedback and they'd be like, "Looks good.

345
00:51:42.944 --> 00:51:50.364
Great." You know? Um, but not much else, and I st- I wasn't getting like enough like response, replies. But then I sent it to, um,

346
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to another person who like spent time on it, and then we had a call and he talked to me about it for an hour, and then shortly after that I started getting more replies.

347
00:51:58.764 --> 00:52:06.284
And so it's like my point there is just like most people aren't actually gonna give you that advice, 'cause it takes time, right? Like, it like- For sure... takes giving really good advice.

348
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You gotta sit down with it, get in the zone, spend a, a couple hours, whatever it is. You know, you gotta like actually [snaps fingers] shift your focus.

349
00:52:12.824 --> 00:52:21.324
But, um, now I'm just rambling a little bit, but with, with the building in public, when I think of the benefit, like I guess sometimes it's like when you're doing good,

350
00:52:22.584 --> 00:52:31.764
people will just like it and like you're just, you know, like I think- Yeah... with Beehive, like Tyler, Tyler Denk, he puts out great content about Beehive doing good.

351
00:52:31.774 --> 00:52:42.644
And like j- [chuckles] that's, so that's great, 'cause people love to see that, right? Like, but when... I don't know. Yeah. I'm trying to think of like the other benefits. People just like to see behind the scenes.

352
00:52:42.704 --> 00:52:51.444
They like to see something that they feel like generally they're not supposed to. And it goes back to the way we started this conversation with like talking about this Salary Transparent Street thing.

353
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Like, people wanna know things that generally they're not supposed to know. So I think that's the key is like you do have to share that and like maybe there's... It's like, yeah, you gotta protect your ideas, whatever.

354
00:53:04.804 --> 00:53:14.024
Like Tyler has started doing the sending out the investor updates from the very beginning. Uh- Yeah... but he just started that like a couple months ago, so they're like a couple years old or whatever.

355
00:53:14.124 --> 00:53:22.424
Um, so he's protected in that way, but it's still this thing that you're not supposed to see, and that is exclusive primary source knowledge. So I don't know.

356
00:53:22.484 --> 00:53:26.244
I'm tr- I guess I'm trying to figure out like what should you do to build in public, and I think it's about like- Yeah...

357
00:53:26.284 --> 00:53:35.564
maybe it's just as simple as like if what you are sharing isn't like primary source forbidden knowledge, why should anyone care? Maybe. I don't know. Do, do you agree?

358
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I think you hit it on the head in regards to the creator who just changed the framework, right? Yeah. Uh, it's no longer the ask a founder, it's 240 days to raise. Um, that is just so much more interesting.

359
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Um, so like I don't know if people are genuinely interested in like, "Hey, you wanna watch me start my brand-new newsletter? Um, I have 100 subscribers." Uh, like it might be friends and family. Um, but yeah.

360
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I think it's what... Certainly people are interested in behind the scenes. They're interested in the authentic aspect of it, and, um, there's questions involved. Like people do ask questions. You do get more DMs.

361
00:54:11.204 --> 00:54:14.884
I think what Tyler does really well, uh, in all honesty, is he's in the comments man.

362
00:54:15.024 --> 00:54:29.084
[chuckles] Like he's genuinely co- like responding to comments, which is so, which is just like I don't know how you guys manage your time there at, uh, at Beehive, but like I still have emails in my inbox where he replied, uh, to like, uh, customer service inquiries.

363
00:54:29.504 --> 00:54:34.464
I'm just like, "What?" Like I know how much you guys are doing from your investor reports. I see. I'm like, "How do you have the time to do this?"

364
00:54:34.564 --> 00:54:43.964
Which is, is like, uh, it humanizes the brand, it humanizes the, the individual, and it just like, uh, helps you resonate a better connection. So yeah, that, that's the one thing.

365
00:54:44.024 --> 00:54:56.056
But like from building in public, like-There's, there's a lot of creators on, on, um, on Twitter, uh, that build in public, and I think a lot of them are finding that, uh, they end up attracting just the wrong audience.

366
00:54:56.136 --> 00:55:01.636
Um, they end up attracting other people who are building similar products, uh, which is cool to build your network.

367
00:55:02.196 --> 00:55:13.346
Um, but, um, I think there might be a level of scale where you have to get to, like, Tyler's level, [chuckles] um, where you have, like, thousands and thousands and thousands of people who are interested, uh, in your business, uh, for it to be worthwhile.

368
00:55:13.956 --> 00:55:22.516
But like you said, like, um, there's, um, there's a diamond in the rough, right? Like, you could end up having a one-hour conversation with somebody who's super knowledgeable, and it opens doors.

369
00:55:23.216 --> 00:55:34.156
Uh, something I thought of yesterday that I've, I've really been enjoying just kind of, like, thinking about is this idea of an authenticity ceiling. Okay, I read that post. Yeah, the authenticity post.

370
00:55:34.236 --> 00:55:41.876
Yeah, authen- Yeah. Okay, I read your post, man. I, I... Yeah. I love it, man. Um, I... That, that really struck a chord with me. Mm-hmm.

371
00:55:41.886 --> 00:55:54.836
Um, because I think copywriting for, for successful executives at this point is very, like, prominent. Um, but, you know, I think it's so hard, um, to be authentic, and it's so, uh- 'Cause it's even...

372
00:55:54.876 --> 00:55:59.746
It's not even just about, like, outsourcing it. It's about you doing it yourself, and, like, make...

373
00:56:00.056 --> 00:56:09.496
You know, because you could go in and, and type something on LinkedIn, but maybe you're trying too hard in a way that's too market-y or whatever, and p- it, it, it smells fake to people.

374
00:56:09.516 --> 00:56:16.456
So it's like, I actually hadn't thought of that part yet, but, like, that is part of it too, is like, it... You don't even need to outsource to, like, toe the line with this.

375
00:56:16.496 --> 00:56:22.776
It could even just be what you're doing, which is kind of what you're talking about with building in public. Like, how do you make it more- That's true... authentic than authentic?

376
00:56:22.856 --> 00:56:31.336
You know, how do you make it more real than real? Which I don't know, but maybe that's part of it. Yeah. No, you s- you hit it, like... Okay, yeah, that, that post you wrote really struck a chord with me.

377
00:56:31.676 --> 00:56:39.756
Um, 'cause, like, I, I looked at it and was like, "You know what the... That term should be a term." [chuckles] Um, right, um- We're making it one. [laughs] Yeah, right?

378
00:56:40.276 --> 00:56:54.416
Um, I- somebody ended up s- Like, I was reading, uh, just through Twitter, um, somebody said that, like, the future of advertising is a girl in her pajamas, uh, on TikTok monotoning, like, in a monotone voice saying a product she likes.

379
00:56:54.976 --> 00:57:01.696
[laughs] Um, and, and I think that's so true, 'cause like, um, we've become desensitized from, like, the pie polish, uh, and so on.

380
00:57:02.556 --> 00:57:11.816
Uh, and I think that's why s- salary transparency is so interesting to so many people, 'cause you, you... It's real. Um- Yeah. Y- yeah. No, it, it's good.

381
00:57:11.896 --> 00:57:15.816
Uh, I think, I think that's a good note to end it on, where we, we've covered a lot.

382
00:57:15.896 --> 00:57:26.495
Uh, but before, before we cut the recording, um, is there anything you wanna plug right now, or a- anywhere people should find you online so you can start building in public better? Uh, just on LinkedIn.

383
00:57:26.616 --> 00:57:29.056
Yeah, I'm on LinkedIn. No, nothing, uh, I'm interested in plugging.

384
00:57:29.176 --> 00:57:45.566
Um, uh, I think, like, the main reason I, why I wanted to do this, um, uh, this one is I've had the opportunity to talk to, like, hundreds of creators now just through, through the process of research, and I find, like, the one thing that most people are interested in is how to get to their first thousand, first 10,000 subscribers.

385
00:57:46.256 --> 00:57:52.156
And my, my advice there is just, like, don't look at the traditional methods. Um, uh, you know, do outreach.

386
00:57:52.416 --> 00:58:00.716
[chuckles] Go, go find ways to figure out, like, the main thing you should focus on is how do you get in front of your user, and how do you give them something that they, they can't refuse. Um,

387
00:58:01.836 --> 00:58:10.916
and you could get your hundred, your first thousand pretty damn easily, uh, by just putting in a little bit of effort of outreach. Um, go to them versus them come to you.