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The third video I ever made went viral. Got a million views on a 7,000 follower Instagram account. That's what people dream of. I genuinely believe that everyone's got an interesting story.

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Most people just don't know how to tell that story. Tell me a little bit about the learning curve going from, "I have not made short-form video before," to now, "I'm getting millions of views."

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I'm not good with a camera. I'm not good with editing. I'd never done it before, but I knew I could rely on the message. Year one, we did 38 million views. Incredible. I do wanna talk a little bit more about money.

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Never count on a platform to pay you. Every newsletter writes about trends. Those don't matter. I've never made a piece of trend content. I'm averaging more views than 99% of creators.

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Welcome back to the Creator Spotlight podcast.

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My name is Francis Zira, and today we are speaking with Jack Appleby, a creator with two focuses, social media marketing and his journey as a washed guy in his mid to late 30s trying to play basketball forever.

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Before he was a creator, he spent over a decade working in social media marketing, so he definitely knows what he's talking about. This is a good one. Hope you enjoy.

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I listened to a podcast you did about a year and a half ago, August 2024, and I wrote down something you said, which is, "The new crop of social media marketers like social media more than they like marketing, and therefore makes social media content and not marketing content."

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Say more about this. It really is one of my core beliefs in what's changing the industry right now.

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Um, I think something that's happened that's fascinating is like, so I, I started in social media in 2011, I think it was. Mm-hmm. Uh, I mean, Facebook's the pri- I checked your LinkedIn. It's 2011.

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[laughs] There you go. Facebook's the primary social network. Instagram's not on Android yet. There is no video content besides YouTube. Mm-hmm. Like, these are early days.

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And like, we didn't-- we, we were all making up social strategy. We didn't know what we were doing yet. We're, we're building the early versions of it. Yeah. So like now here I am, 15 years experience, 37 years old.

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I can't name a ton of people with my experience who stayed in the social media industry.

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You literally, sorry to interrupt again, but you literally, your first job, I, I think I heard this on another podcast when I was doing prep, was like you worked the graveyard shift from like midnight to 8 A.M.

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managing a team that replied to comments on Facebook for a brand, right? Mm-hmm. Yeah, for, for Electronic Arts. Yeah. You were in the... You were- Yeah... deep in, in the content mines. I was in the weeds. Yeah.

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Yeah, I mean, we were-- this is like Battlefield game launch, where it launched Bro... And this was like, was the-- this is when community management meant something else. Yeah.

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But I mean, Electronic-- I've had three- Three, three versions of that buzzword ago at least. [laughs] Totally. Like, and it means so many-- now it can mean anything.

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Um, but like, I was literally working graveyard managing a whole team where our goal was to reply to as many comments as possible, and EA was like funding a, I mean, something like a 10 to 20 persons community management team where we're just firing off comments.

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And to our, to our credit and their credit, that the video game industry is a, a very odd one. It's so pre-order based that then- Mm-hmm... how does the game, how's the game received in the first month or two?

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Battlefield launched very glitchy. Yeah. And they gave us a lot of credit where they're like, they've-- to be fair, it's their investment, their strategy.

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But they said like, "We think all the community management we did is what kept people from like trading in their game while we fixed the game." That makes sense. 'Cause people felt attended to. Mm-hmm.

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Um, now I think, I don't think anybody could or should invest in CM work the way we did 15 years ago.

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I think what's been interesting is all of my friends who are like same age now, same number of years in marketing, they've all left social media. They've gone to brand marketing jobs.

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They've gone to traditional marketing jobs. Like, part of it's because there weren't that many director of social jobs or head of, head jobs that would justify the salaries that someone of our experience level would do.

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But what I've seen is this new crop of, of SMMs that are out there, they're not-- You would assume they're being taught by people like me. Mm-hmm. And they're not. They're being taught by the same people that taught me.

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Because there is the senior class of social strategy, it kinda just never fully happens. Mm-hmm. And like, if you're listening and you're one of those people, like you're doing the Lord's work.

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[laughs] I'm saying generally, there's not a ton, like there's not this huge field of 15-year experience heads of social, 'cause people got out of it. Yeah. So now it's a little bit where...

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A-and like I, I wanna be clear, I think junior strategists, I think social media managers are amazing. I love the excitement they bring to the jobs. I love the care they have. But I do think like we're see- Like

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every newsletter writes about trends. There are entire newsletters that are just about trends. Mm-hmm. And I'm like, those don't matter.

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We are working for brands, and your job is to make who you work for interesting culturally. Yeah.

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And if you only can do that through trends and through other social media input, you actually don't know how to market a product or make great content.

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You're never gonna- And I would- You're never gonna really get much good surfing time in if you're only riding waves other people are already on. Oh, 100%. That's a horrible metaphor, but you know what I mean.

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Hey, you know, I'll fo- I'll follow you down that path. Yeah. [laughs] Uh, but I mean, even with like Hoop Forever's not a product. Hoop Forever is, is me as a person. I've never made a piece of trend content. Yeah.

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But I'm now averaging, with 100,000 Instagram followers, I average 150,000 views a video. Mm-hmm. Why is that? Because I built an audience that supports me, that roots for me.

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Like another one of my big concepts recently when I talk to content creators, like you can't just make content that gets views. Mm-hmm.

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What are you telling creator-- or like what are you telling your audiences and giving them a reason to root for you? Yeah. That is a really important concept right now. Well, wait.

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Okay, so s-speaking of not just getting views, uh, you posted a screenshot on your Twitter, and I think your LinkedIn as well, uh, at the start of November of your October income from the Creator Rewards program on TikTok, which was $9,578 and 96 cents.

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I'm going to assume this has been so far the peak month, because I haven't seen screenshots for many other months. 100%. But this is purely from the TikTok rewards, right?

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And so I, I actually don't know as much about the TikTok versus the Instagram sort of rewards program as I should. I don't even know if Instagram really pays you out like that. Um, but you have more followers.

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You've got around 100 th-10 or 107,000 as we speak on Instagram, and it's like 70,000 on TikTok. Um, how, where did that money come from?

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Like, you're saying, like, more than attention, how do you actually earn that money? Is that how many watch hours, how many videos, et cetera?

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So, and w- we'll get into the part that I hate about this, and like I don't know if you saw the caption on it, but, um, so TikTok's creator rewards program is one of the strongest creator, uh, programs out there.

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Um- Perhaps second to YouTube. Correct, yes. Mm-hmm. Um, which YouTube's an interesting beast, and it's y- a little bit of a blind spot for me. Yeah. We'll get into that. Um, so let's, let's... Yeah. Um,

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but the re- that was my best month ever. Mm-hmm. Like, and in, uh, I've always told content crea- 'cause I mostly work with short-form content creators. Mm-hmm. I've always been a short-form guy.

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My financial stance has been never count on a platform to pay you. I think it's insane when creators complain that a platform's not... They're like, "We're making the content for the platform." There's a million of us.

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Yeah. Like, let's talk about supply and demand. They don't need us individually. Um, so when I started making real money off TikTok, and like I usually make two to four grand. Mm. 10 grand was crazy.

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The reason I made 10 grand that month was because of that stupid beef with those fricking basketball YouTubers. [laughs] That's the videos- Oh, my God...

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that did that because, and this is where, and, and this, I even said this in the tweet, I was like, what I kinda hate is the one time I did, like, a very social media thing where it's like, let's...

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And I, I was not crafting beef. I knew I would get a reply. Like, when I made the first video, I knew that those guys would reply. Yeah. Where we don't know each other, but it's a small world out there.

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Um, and they- But you tagged them as well. [laughs] I, I did tag them. Yeah. Yeah, and I, and like we have mutuals. Like, I knew they would, I knew there'd be a reply.

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You knew they'd s- I didn't, I didn't know they'd do it the way they did it. And then to be crystal clear, towards the middle of the beef, me and, and Dilu, we were DM'ing each other- Mm...

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and we were, like, hyping each other up. Like, it was, but none of it was staged until, like, the final video when we're like, "We're gonna challenge each other." Yeah. Um, but people love smoke.

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Those videos did views, and like it, it... People love smoke, and it caused a debate where, like I'm, I'm a smart guy, I'm a strategist. I knew to frame my entire argument like, "You guys are..."

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I kept saying this, like, "You guys are better than me." [laughs] Scoreboard. Yeah. Scoreboard. You guys went home before us because you didn't play team basketball.

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And it caused this wonderful debate that was super interesting. Um, it's something I'm trying to do with Hoop Forever.

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The reason I can keep playing at 37 years old, and like the number of people who are like, "I'm so much better than Jack. Why does he get looks I don't get?" I make my teams better. Mm. I make the right pass.

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I play hard. I play defense. And like that's what I'm trying to put on my account, and it was an opportunity for me to... We talk about, yes, controversy drove a lot of the, that income that month. Mm-hmm.

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But the controversy was based in the reason people support me, which was my audience said, "You're right. We don't like when people play basketball that way, and it's very exclusionary.

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It's very, like, only athletic guys, one-on-one type stuff. We like that Jack represents this." And what was interesting is even a lot of their followers were like, "Ah, this guy makes a point." Yeah.

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Like, you guys aren't f- like, he's playing pro ball now. Hard to argue. Yeah. So like it's, it...

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But it, again, like the controversy wouldn't work, it'd be empty if I hadn't had a basis of, like, people who follow me who support, like, my vision and view of basketball. So it's gotta be both.

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Like, so again, like, just be worth rooting for. Give people a reason to believe in you. Like, it's the most important thing I think with content. Yeah. Um, okay.

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I do wanna talk a little bit more about money, and you don't have to answer anything- Mm... in precise terms that you don't want to. I, I get that. Sure.

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Uh, but to zoom out, so you've got the basketball stuff, the, the Hoop Forever stuff- Mm...

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and then you've got the Future Social and just general social media marketing which would include your, your LinkedIn, your Twitter, et cetera. These are kind of your two buckets as I understand it.

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Can you break down first, like, in a typical month, w- how does each, what, what percentage does each contribute to your overall revenue pie? All my money comes from my marketing presence.

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What about- It is- What about when there's $10,000 coming in a month? There, it's, I would say Hoop Forever had a much bigger year than I thought it was going to. Yeah. Um, I also spent a lot more on Hoop Forever. Mm.

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Um, so- Well, you're, you're traveling. You're giving out these rec league- Right... uh, memberships. That's one of the things you do. Yeah, so- Yeah...

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so for anybody that, that doesn't know my stuff, the, the series that's now becoming my primary series is... And I, I actually, I'm usually pretty confident in my hooks.

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This was one where I was like, "I don't know if this is gonna work or not. We'll see." And I announced like, "I'm starting my own professional basketball team." [laughs] Yeah.

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And I was like, people here think this is weird or they'll think it's cool, and it fortunately it turned out they thought it was cool. Um, and we had some, like, good early success that helped a lot. Um, so now

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m- the deal I made was I'm gonna fund me and my teammates to go travel where we go. I'll pay for all the travel. When we win, I will pay all of us equally after we pay me back. Mm-hmm.

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And when we lose, I'll eat the whole thing. [laughs] Um, which believe it or not, because of the, because of that controversial month where I made a bunch of money off that, the team was technically profitable.

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[laughs] It wouldn't have been if it wasn't for that- Yeah... 'cause I spent 10 grand. We won seven grand, but I lost five grand, which the whole goal was, like, there's a lot of semi-pro basketball teams out there.

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There's a lot of, um, there's a lot of FIBA 3x3 teams. There's a lot of, like, ABA teams, where they really struggle financially. My goal was like, I'm gonna have a pro team.

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You can sponsor us like any other team, but the real thing you're sponsoring is the content, and I will make money through content and brand deals that make this gag keep going. Yeah.

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And like year one, like p- like we did 38 million views on the pro team content- Damn... which is crazy for a, for an account that has, I have 170K overall followers. So like the proof's there.

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Like, it also shows you that, like, views and followers are like the, the relationship's changing a little bit. Yeah. Um, but let's make no mistake. I get paid way more to promote a $10,000 a month SaaS service- SaaS...

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in a marketing newsletter than I do- Everyone knows B2B is where the money is. But, but, okay- Yeah...

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real quick though before we, I wanna move on to that, but, um, the-The brand deals on the basketball side, what kind of brand deals are you doing? How many did you do this year? Very few this year. Yeah.

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Um, it was early days, it's secondary business, and I haven't been out there hunting for stuff. Mm. Um, and I'm sure we'll get into that. I, I recently signed with management, how that's changed my life.

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Um, but because it's secondary, I- I'm still the new guy on the block. Um, and I do... A theory that I have about the- my basketball content is I think if I want it to be even bigger, I can generate views.

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I'm, I'm already doing higher average views than most other basketball creators except for like the, the top tier. Yeah.

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Um, I do think what I have to do if I wanna get more brand deals is I think I need to give brands the chance to imagine me more in their brand deals. Mm.

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'Cause right now you basically have to contribute in a way that supports my basketball journey,

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which is slightly different than you can hire any content creator to make, a- any basketball creator to make like skit content or- Yeah... like any like talking head content.

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So I, I think a, a strategy I have for- Well, and to be clear, like looking at your content, it's not very polished, right? Like it's, it- Total...

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your content is still almost like, almost like TikTok 1.0 in like how it's shot- Yeah... and like the overlays you're using. You're not doing anything complicated.

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I interviewed somebody, um, I don't know if this will- that'll be out already when this comes out, but I interviewed somebody the other day who's been doing short form stuff for about as long as you have, and I was looking back at his first videos and it's like so just like some guy, right?

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Some guy messing around making like Figma design tip videos, and then now he's got the studio and all the lighting and the camera and it's so polished and engineered.

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Um, and you've been doing it around the same time and your, your content looks not that different than it did two and a half years ago. [laughs] This is by design. Yeah. Um, I mean, and I made...

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Something I really, really try to do, and I'm very proud of, I'm really, really good at finding the story- Mm. Yeah... in just how I'm living my basketball life.

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Um, so like this morning I played, at 6:45 in the morning, that, that Swish House basketball class I go to, and somehow me and the other best shooter in the gym got paired on the same team, and we, and we won the day.

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Like, we won six of the seven- Yeah... games we played.

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I had recorded the whole thing for a totally different video, but as I'm taking the subway, like I've already written a script in my head for a video I hadn't even thought to make, where like the hookup front is like, like if you're a guy who go gets buckets, you're the leading scorer on your team, the most important thing you can do is go make the other guy the leading scorer.

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And I'll show a bunch of clips how like I, I do not go run to the other side of the court away from Sam, this other shooter- Mm-hmm... on my team. I go towards him and we do plays together, and talk about how we both...

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It's one plus one equals three. That's such like a how to hoop forever type of piece of content- Yeah... where it's like preaching how to make everybody better, but it's hooked in- It's so wholesome... somewhat like...

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It's wholesome. Yeah. No one can argue against it. Like whereas like if you go on my LinkedIn, the comments will be like, "He's right, he's wrong," yapping at me, yapping at each other, 'cause it's all opinion stuff.

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Yeah. When you go to my basketball stuff, no one's like, "That's not how you should do that." It's so wholesome. Like my whole hope is to help kids like me, like you're a fringe... Like I'm six...

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Like let's be fair, 6'5" gives me an advantage over most guys. Yeah. Um, but like I think the

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people who just love the game can actually go find college scholarships if they play the right way, get the GPA, are willing to do it.

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Like, I think it's out there, and I, I genuinely wanna help kids and like high school kids understand the right way to play the game. Yeah. Yeah. No, that's fair. Um, okay, let's take it to the Future Social side.

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Uh, I wanna talk about the present state, present state income- Mm... and like all the different streams that go into it, and then maybe I'll bring us a little bit back to more origin story stuff. Sure.

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So right now, how many ways [laughs] do you make money? What are all your, your, your revenue streams under the broader Future Social social media marketing umbrella? Sure.

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So when I, when I think of Future Social, like I, I... Jack Appelbe and Future Social are fairly synonymous at this point. Yes. The distribution platforms are the newsletter on Beehiiv- Mm... LinkedIn and Twitter.

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And weirdly- Which is about 80,000, 80,000, 70,000 respectively. I checked this morning. Yeah, which is very odd. Everyone's always confused by that. I'm kind of confused by that.

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[laughs] Um, but what's been cool is there's people... I keep meeting people who don't know that I write Future Social. Huh. Which I think is cool because it, it... I, I actually don't have a ton of audience overlap.

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I'm actually hitting different people on each platform despite the same size audience. Very odd. Um, but those are the distribution platforms. Branded content is for sure the biggest source of income for me.

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Um, for me, branded content is usually formed in package deals where it's branded LinkedIn content- Mm-hmm... and newsletter ads. Twitter is very hit and miss in 2025. Mm-hmm.

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A lot of brands who used to pay me for Twitter are like, "Nah, we're good. No, thank you." Even though- Your tweets don't hit as much anymore. Your LinkedIn posts hit, but you know, I've- So-...

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sort of through like your last- I-... year of tweets and there's not... I mean, some of them get engagement but- Yeah... yeah. So I quit Twitter. Um, I, I quit fully and then came back just like dipped my toe in.

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Um, I think a lot of my audience just isn't really on the platform anymore. Like it's hard for me to tell. Like I haven't...

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One of my experiments for Q1 I have planned is like really dive back into Twitter and see how it- Mm... like see how it does. Yeah. Like to... 'Cause like I, I... When I put up like a downloadable, it still does okay.

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Um, but I think just Twitter in the post-Elon era, there's less people trying to educate themselves. Like I think a lot of that screen time has gone over to LinkedIn. Yeah. Um, and I have to pivot. It's less earnest.

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Yeah. It's less... I mean, also like the for you page era of Twitter, like the stuff that it's sent, I know some people tell me they think it's great.

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I have not spent enough time to like maybe trigger my algorithm in a way that I like, um, but I don't enjoy being on Twitter anymore. [laughs] Yeah.

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I mean, I enjoy it in the way I enjoy scrolling Instagram Reels or, you know, eating too much candy on Halloween as a 12-year-old. But- Fair... it's, it's not good for me. Valid.

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Um, but it's, but branded content through packages is my primary income. Something that I'm very focused on, um, is more speaking events. Mm. And that's probably the second biggest source of income for me.

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Speaking events can really vary in how much I'm paid per, um, but I really love connecting with people IRL. Yeah. Like it's like I... The, the newsletter's great, but it's like it's a broadcast. Mm-hmm.

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Um, and I get some anxiety sometimes with like social.

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Like I'll get 100, 100 comments in my LinkedIn, I'm like, especially because-People are commenting earnestly and s- a lot of time I'm like, "Ah, you're not, you're not actually picking up the thing that we're talking about," and I don't wanna fire...

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Like, I don't, I don't wanna correct someone who's being- Yeah... really kind in their comments section. You, you do, you sometimes correct people, but maybe if it's more people who are, like, being trolly or rude.

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But, like, I do see you, you have a very frank way of replying to comments- Yes... on LinkedIn that I don't really see often otherwise. I, I feel like, too- Yeah...

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this is, like, you know, I've, and I've met you in person, you're, you're this 6'5" guy, and it goes back to, like, what we were talking about with the whole basketball thing and, like, the kind of, like, wholesome presence you can bring.

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Like, I think that is the role I see you playing on LinkedIn as somebody who, like, sees your content is, like, you're kinda like, "I don't know, buddy," and you step in, and it's like, it's very much this, like, 6'5" guy thing to do and, like- [laughs]...

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I think. It, it's so... I will never forget maybe, like, a decade ago, um, I went on a date with somebody who I met through Twitter. Uh-huh.

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Um, and the first, like, within 20 minutes of us meeting she goes, "You're so much warmer than I thought you would be." [laughs] And I'm like, and, and like that was the conversation for an hour where I was like- Yeah...

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'cause I, it stopped being a date. I'm like, "Talk to me about this." Yeah. And she's like, "You're such a nice dude in person, and, like, online you have such strong opinions." Mm-hmm.

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And it's inter- Like, I think it's where I was trained as a journalistic writer, so, like, I was trained to be very frank. Like, and then I became an opinion writer, and, like, I have strong opinions on this space.

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Um, but then I've, I've very intentionally toyed with lots of different tones. Yeah. I have had months where I've been like, I'm not arguing with anybody.

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I've had m- like, I've had months where I just block people right away. I've had months where I reply to people. Like, and right now we are very much in the, like, I'm being really honest through content.

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Like, I think there's, in some ways I think marketing's getting worse- Mm... like, in social, in social media. Um, and even, like, I had a post that, that did pretty strong numbers yesterday.

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It has over, like, I think almost 2,000 likes now about, like, uh, content cal- people should not make content every day for their brands. Yeah. I remember this. Yeah. Mm.

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Um, and the replies are full of, like, I hate the word misinformation 'cause I think it's a loaded word, but, like, it's straight up misinformation. I- Yeah...

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an hour before you and I got on this call someone's like, "Well, can this be accurate when the platforms require you to post every day for algorithm reasons?" I'm like, "That's, that's just 100% not true."

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[laughs] It's just factually inaccurate. Um- That's cla- classic hearsay advice. That's one of those, like, um- Totally... old, old social media marketers tales. [laughs] You know? 100%.

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I mean, this is, like, one of my favorite fights to get into is, like, I'm, I am team followers is not a vanity metric. Mm-hmm. No, followers is a reflection of how many people think that you have something to tell them.

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Oh, this is one I haven't heard in a while. Um, I mean, I have a post from it yesterday 'cause I keep seeing- [laughs]... like, the whole...

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But this is also, like, I'll look on LinkedIn, I'll s- like, I'll see a post, this is where LinkedIn drives me nuts sometimes even though it's a huge portion of my income. Mm. I will see mega influencers are dead.

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We're in the era of UGC and micro creators and, like, big essay about that. And then I'll click on their profile and they run a UGC agency. I'm like, "Thank you." Mm. I under- This is branded content for yourself.

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Um- Yeah. Well, that's what I was... I mean, the, the, the classic example I always think of things like this is, like, sometimes I'll read something from somebody who's much younger.

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Maybe they're just out of college or something and, and they're writing something about, like, it's, it's kind of like philosophizing and I'm like, oh, I remember when I was 22 and I was going through that same thing, right?

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And it's like- Yeah... everything seems like, like, oh yeah, this is the moment of this thing. It's like- Mm-hmm...

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no, you just, like, have been thinking about that a lot recently and it's like, I'm in a different stage of life where, like, I work at a different company that's focused on a different thing.

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And so actually for us, mega influence is the thing. Which is not to say that the UGC micro influence thing, like, even though that's still just an ad for what they're doing, that's not to say it's wrong.

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It's right for some people, but it's just that, like, the language of social media just benefits people who put that hard opinion because then somebody else is gonna make a video about the beef, et cetera.

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[laughs] And this, and this is where with the marketing opinion writing, like, like, feedback I might get sometimes would be like, "Well, does that work for everybody?"

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And, like, genuinely, like, with the things I write, if I don't think they work for everybody, I will caveat that. Mm-hmm. But there are a lot of pieces where I'm like, this is, like, the best strategy for this. Mm-hmm.

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Like, one that got no controversy, 'cause I think when people thought about it they're like, oh wait, this makes sense, was I wrote a whole essay about how you should never post a single photo on Instagram anymore.

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Like, you should always post either a reel or a carousel because a reel can get organic reach that you can't r- that's past your followers 'cause it goes to the FYP. Yeah.

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And then a carousel gets two shots in the algorithm, and Mo- Masri has made videos saying this where it's like, someone can scroll past your content the first time and they will resurface it a second time. This is true.

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So if those are algorithmically true, and I don't write about the algorithm very much 'cause I think algorithms are just people and, like, math. Yeah. Like, it's just people spend too much time thinking about it.

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But, like, like, if this is the case, explain to me why you ever post a single photo. And, like, that was an example, like, there was no other side. So the discourse was really like, "Oh, interesting. That was fun."

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[laughs] Then there, then there's other stuff where it's like, I don't know. I mean, I'm very famously against unhinged content. Mm-hmm. Um, like, and it's where, like, I get that- You're a risk-averse guy.

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I, I would disagree with that. I don't think of myself as risk-averse. I mean, look at my LinkedIn presence. Would you call me risk-averse? No, but- I'm pretty spicy...

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I, I heard you, I heard you say this on another podcast. This might have been from two years ago. Oh, interesting. This one might have been from two years ago.

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I listened to a few from across the last few years, [laughs] but I, I'm just going to you back at you. Fair. So what I would say is it's not that I'm risk-averse. Yeah. It's that

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I think our job is to show the emotional benefits of the companies we work for, and I think that's a phrase that I was taught in my very first marketing class. Yeah.

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And I say to young social m- social professionals, it's, like, brand new to them, and that's not their fault. There's a lot of people being hired who've never taken a marketing class. Yeah.

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But then I think their bosses are not imparting marketing wisdom onto them, so it becomes this like, well, let's just make social media content.

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Um, I mean, and when it comes to the unhinged stuff, I'm like, listen, if you're Duolingo where you get 20 million views-A fr- a percent- a larger percentage of that audience will then think when they're finally deciding to learn Spanish- Yeah...

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"Well, what do I know about? I know of Duolingo." Like, the purchase journey's different. It's also... And Duolingo, it's like Duolingo has been this example people call out in this way for a- at least five years, right?

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I think it was like- Yeah... around five years ago that the, the owl, like, as- Mm... the center of the content really became this thing, um, with Zaria, uh, Parvez, I think it was- Mm...

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who, who was the, the head of social there. The eventual head of social. She started as a more junior role. But yeah, like, that's just become this, like, such a tired touchpoint.

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And I think, um, the post that you're, like, that you kinda crystallized this thinking in the other day was like s- it's like even if you can get a lot of followers on LinkedIn, it's not worth it if you're just making posts about, like, stupid shit that has nothing to do with your job.

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Like, don't do that. Like, that's what you're saying. Like, if you're gonna make- 100%... unhinged content, like, at least make it relevant to the thing you're doing and, and the way you sound.

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It's tar- targeted audience. Yeah. Like, it's like it's a marketing funnel. If you're trying to grow on LinkedIn, you already know the hardest part isn't posting once.

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Tell me a little bit about the learning curve for you of going from I have not made short-form video before to now I'm getting millions of views on some videos. So this is... There's so many different answers for this.

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Um, I'm a big... I'm clearly a big believer in story and words in general. Mm. Um, believe it or not, I don't script those videos. Huh.

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There's all me talking, like, thinking through them out loud and, like, a couple of different takes, but, like, this is something I'm strong at is, like, I think I love storytelling. I fas- I have a, I have a movie club.

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I go to the movies three times a month. What was the best movie you saw recently? Um, I'm seeing Hamlet tomorrow- Oh, okay... which should be the only thing that'll challenge One Battle After Another this year.

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I l- I watched One Battle twice. Yeah, that was a great- Genius... anyways. [laughs] Um, but the...

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What's been interesting with Hoop Forever is, like, I could do the math of, like, I am not a good short-form content creator. Like- Yeah... and like you would, saying that now would seem silly.

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It's like I get, I'm averaging more views than 99% of creators, but I did not... I'm not good with a camera. I'm not good with editing.

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Um, I'd never done it before, but I knew I could rely on, like, my words and story and, like, the message would carry me. Mm.

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And that's why, like, I'm still shooting on a six-foot tripod on iPhone 16 and then using, like, key framing to make it look a little more dynamic, and then occasionally I'll cut myself in and talk to the camera.

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But, like, I feel so awkward doing this. I don't- [laughs] I hate this. I'm not good at it. Dude, I, I've been trying it recently, and I, I haven't posted anything 'cause I'm just like, "I hate, I hate this.

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I hate myself." [laughs] Well- Oh, my God... on the marketing side- [laughs]... like, the number of brands who've said, like, "Bro, you'd be so good at this, and this is an easier way for us to pay you.

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Why aren't you making video content?" I have not found a, a method of it that I- Yeah... personally am proud of. It's very different 'cause, like, with basketball content I c- I will play...

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This is, this is, like, my workflow now. I'll be in a game. I'll remember I did a move in the game. I'm like, "Well, that's the visual hook." [laughs] Okay, so what's the...

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Like, d- dude, I'm scripting during the game at this point. Yeah. Like, there's the visual hook. Here's, like, the VO message. Here's how I get it to a minute so I can get to the creator, uh...

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TikTok creator program, it's gotta be over a minute. Like, and that's... I know how to do that. I clearly have enough opinions to make marketing videos.

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[laughs] But I don't know how to frame myself in a way that I'm proud of, and, like, I, I just spent- Well, and, and you think of, like, somebody like, uh, Oren Meets World or Eugene Healy who are out there doing this kind of work, and it looks really good.

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And you go back too to, like, you know, you go sort their TikToks by oldest. I d- I did this with Oren the other day, and it's like, it was, it was so funny. There's just some video where he's doing the, like,

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like, you know, smug guy- Totally... pointing up at a thing, and it's like, wow, this is so unpolished. Just looks like some random guy, and then you look at his videos now, and they're so polished.

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I know he probably has, like, animators working on it. It's obviously not just him.

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But, um, the, uh, my, my point here is that, like, for somebody like you who you're making plenty of money through the writing and, like, you don't, like, you don't necessarily need...

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You don't have this urgency to go and build this new reve- revenue stream through video, and you also, like, a- already have, like, somewhat of a polished thing going on with the newsletter.

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It's like, it's a lot of suffering to spend, like, a year- [laughs]... plus making videos that, like, you don't feel good about and that you think look bad. Like, I've been dealing with this myself trying to...

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Like, I need to, I need to try something here, right? I know I need to be making short-form videos. Mm.

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But it's like I'm a good writer, and I'm a decent podcaster here, and I can do that, and it's like the, the, like, opportunity cost maybe you could say of, of making, like, these poor videos [laughs] when I could be writing really good essays is, like, it's a big discrepancy.

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Uh, well, and now I have the unique ch- uh, i- it's not a problem, it's a good thing- Mm... that I have two creator accounts now. Yeah. Both of which are thriving.

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Like, o- one makes more money than the other one, but, like, Hoop Forever grew really fast. Yeah. And that, that's not gonna stop. Um, so, like, I'm, I'm really excited about that one too.

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So it's like I've had to figure out, like, do I even wanna make marketing videos? And I just think the reality of the market is that I'm going to have to. [laughs] And I gotta think through what that means.

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Like, 'cause, like, it's, like, the names you just mentioned, I don't have Instagram presence for my marketing thoughts. Yeah. I have none.

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It seems like a miss to not have that even though I have one of the most read newsletters in the whole industry.It's just like now I gotta figure out the scaling of the team, and like that's why I brought on a manager.

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This is where like this- I'm spending December trying to think through how do I do all of these things next year and scale them? Okay. Because- Let's talk about this. Yeah.

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So you brought in a manager about two months ago. Before you tell me that, I, I'm curious like why now is the time and why... like what you were looking for in a manager, why this was the guy.

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But before that, Future Social starts because you were- you already kind, kind of had a Twitter presence, and you were working as a creative strategist at Twitch. Morning Brew approaches you.

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They have this creative program going on, and they say, "Hey, we like your stuff. We think you'd be great in writing a newsletter. Come do this." They convince you. You go do it. I don't know, maybe it was like a year.

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You can tell me how long you were doing it there for.

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But then I think they shut down the program, um, but they let you take your audience and your newsletter and go do your own thing, and then at that point, maybe you have like 30,000 subscribers. I don't know.

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But you're doing that, um, and then from that point... Let's... Okay, so you leave Morning Brew. Sure. You've had people around you there. From that point,

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first actually also tell me like how many subscribers you had, what was the state of the business, uh, but when did you first bring in outside help, whether it was like a graphic designer or like whatever it was?

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What was the first- Mm... outside help you brought in? Uh, what outside help? Um, no, I... Dude, I... This is where the joke is I'm, I'm the worst business owner of all time.

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[laughs] And I, and I think it's entirely true. Like this is where- We were talking about this before we got started- Yeah... by the way. For the listener, he's like, "You know, the camera looks great." Like I don't...

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He's like, "I have this camera. I don't even know how to turn it on." [laughs] Listen, my strengths are I understand strategy to, I think, a, a truly expert level. Mm.

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I understand content to an expert level, and I, and I've now done this for myself and many brands over and over and over again. The problem is, is that does not make a business owner. That does not make a media company.

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Yeah. Um, and like I've struggled. Like, it's, it's been painful. Like, and on top of that, I have a lot of like money trauma from my, from my family history where like money- Yeah... makes me really uncomfortable.

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Like taxes make me really uncomfortable. Like it's, it's... It's a whole nothe- that's a whole nother podcast. [laughs] But basically I took it over, took it over with basically like two weeks notice when Morning- Wow...

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Brew killed the program. When, when was this? Like what month, what year? So I was at Morning Brew for a year. Mm. So whatever, a year after I started at Morning Brew, um, 'cause they, the program only lasted that long.

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Damn. Um, and they, and they cut a bunch of us loose. But they, they did me right, and that's why I will always stand by them and say nothing but great things about them. Like, they tried to diversify.

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Their organization didn't know how to support the type of business we were building, and they did me right. Mm. I will say nothing but nice things about those folks.

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Um, but I didn't know how to run a newsletter business. I didn't know what that meant. [laughs] Um, so like I, I literally am like, "I think Tyler Denk used to work at Morning Brew."

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[laughs] "Hey, hey, Beehiiv, will you help me like host this newsletter?" Yeah. And they were like super cool, and they set it up for me.

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Um, I mean, something I'm really proud of is like I think we had like 35,000 subs, maybe 40. That's good. Um, now I'm at 80. Um, and so I've, I've doubled it on my own. It took...

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I don't- forget if it's been two or three years since then. Um, but something I'm really proud of, and this is why when I give talks about like content creation or growth and all these things,

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I've never spent a dollar on an ad. Wow. I don't really promote my newsletter. Um, and I've, I've never had a lead magnet. I have brute forced my way to this audience size on all these platforms. I don't do any like...

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I don't like to call them hacks, but I don't do any best practices. No.

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Well, what, what, what you're growing on is like organic growth, which is like through the power of your opinion and your willingness and ability to stand on it, right? Mm.

227
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Like that's, that's like the, that's like the, the grail of like how to grow a newsletter- Mm... or how to grow on social is like without having to do the growth hack, the lead magnet, the paid growth.

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It's like you have opinions that people will share and will put in their Slack channel to their boss, right? Like that's- Yeah... what people dream of.

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Well, and that's, and that's what I hope every content creator and every newsletter writer spends more time doing- Yeah...

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is thinking through like what is gonna be the highest value I could provide through whatever kind of content I'm making. Yeah.

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Because if you c- like yeah, I could p- and don't get me wrong, next year, like I will probably spend some money on advertising.

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Like I'm thinking through lead magnet, 'cause if, if I'm this good at like content without doing any of the things right, what happens when I do even a couple of optimizations? Yeah. We'll see what happens.

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Like if, and if I had done that two years ago, maybe I have 100,000 subs, maybe I have 150,000 subs, who knows?

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But I, I'm really proud of and think it's really important that I spent so much time making sure the content is like the highest quality possible.

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Like if you mention my name to somebody in the social media industry, they're like, "That's a guy who's like..." Th- their take will probably be, "He's pretty smart. He has some takes for sure." Yeah.

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"But like he's generally someone like worth reading." Yeah. Which I am entirely okay with that being the opinion. That's 'cause I spent all my time doing this stuff instead of the other stuff. Yeah.

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Which, by the way, I checked, and so it says [laughs] on your LinkedIn, uh, that February of 2022 is when you started Future Social, so I'm... That would mean- Okay... four years ago almost. So three years ago- Yeah...

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is when you started doing this solo. Exa- yeah. So it's like, like 40K subs in like almost three years. Like it's fine. Like it's not great. It's not bad. Like it's, it's- Not bad... good 'cause I didn't...

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And honestly, so like I don't know [laughs] one reason why I generally don't take like how to grow your newsletter talks is like my journey is so different. I'm like- Yeah... like, and I would've...

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To be clear, if Morning Brew didn't say, "We believe in you," I would've never become a content creator. Yeah. It was not my goal. That kind of network growth too- I was not planning to... is the best way to grow.

241
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Totally. Um, I d- I, I, I'm, I'm... You know what? I'm risk averse with myself. [laughs] There we go. I, I would've never started doing this stuff. Okay. Well, so- Again- L- let's take it to the manager then.

242
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So you hired a manager- Yeah... this fall. Mm-hmm. Um, why was now the time, and like what, why was this the guy? What were you looking for? Um, because I'm the worst business guy ever.

243
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And like frankly, like I'm, I have been and continue to like upset some of the brands I work for- Mm... because I have a really hard time delivering.

244
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Like ev- I have the same rep with every brand where they're like, "When Jack does something for us, it always works."

245
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Like I have been the, like with several of, of my brand partners-When they push, push a white paper, I'm the number one source of downloads- Yeah...

246
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even over people bigger than me because of, like, the type of, like, uh, account that I've built for myself. But, like, I'm slow to deliver. I get overwhelmed.

247
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When I get overru- overwhelmed, I shame spiral and curl into the fetal position, don't answer email for three days. Like, it's, like, where my mental health becomes an issue. You have this great story.

248
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Uh, it was in one of the more recent issues of your newsletter, but I think it was kind of a reprint. You'd published it before. 2020, I think you'd been laid off. This was before you go to Twitch. Oh, yeah.

249
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And your dream was to work, um, you wanted to work with an NBA player, maybe run their personal brand, and I think it was Luka Dončić's team had- Yeah... reached out to you, and then you just, they... You ghosted them.

250
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Mm-hmm. You couldn't write the- Yeah... deck. You couldn't pull it together. You were depressed, and- Yeah... and you, like, you know, you, you realized you had to take a step back and stuff.

251
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But I, I'm, I'm reminded of this story now and what you're saying because, like, what you're describing is, like, y- again, you're saying you're not a business person. You are, like- Mm... the talent.

252
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You are the creative here, and you are... I mean, I like to say from people I s- I s- I speak to, right? Like any creator, and, um, I won't make you do... I, I love to get pedantic with people- Mm...

253
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about what that means. Um, but any creator, which here I would say is, like, an, a person independently producing media for- Mm... distribution on social media platforms, right?

254
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Like, any creator is potentially a media startup. They're not all media startups- Mm... and they don't all have the true potential.

255
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But, like, you are at the point where, like, i- it seems like you're describing yourself having, like, squeezed as much out of yourself as you can and, like, growing the business and the audience, and, like, you can keep producing the content and the creative, but you haven't figured out how to, like, scale that even or build the systems around you that would, like- Totally...

256
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allow you to, like, focus on that more single-mindedly. Well, I mean, and this, like, that combines with, like, my raging ADHD. [laughs] The fact that doing it by myself is, like, tough, and then now I'm doing it twice.

257
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I'm doing it as Hoop Forever and- [laughs]... as Future Social. Yeah. [laughs] Like, it just, I, it became crazy. Um, and I w- I was struggling to deliver. Like, just...

258
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And I'm still trying to figure out, like, work out the kinks for this. Yeah. A year ago, I'd hired someone to run operations. That didn't work out, where I was like, I told them, I was like, "You be CEO of me." Yeah.

259
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"I don't wanna be CEO of me. You be CEO." That didn't work out.

260
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Um, and then, like, I constantly rethought about how I wanna do my business, and where I've landed and where I, I believe the future of my business is, like, I clearly understand the strategy of the creator business. Mm.

261
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I need to be the CEO of both businesses and the creator, and everything else in between, like the department heads, I can't be those things. Yeah.

262
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Like, I need to drive the strategic business of, like, where am I going, what do I think makes sense for me, where am I putting my money, like, where I wanna invest in, like, new revenue streams.

263
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I need to do that because I, like, I am an expert in that. But then operationalizing that, I'm the worst person in the world- [laughs]... at it. Yeah. So, like, that's where, um...

264
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So I signed with, uh, Wishly Group, which is managed by, uh, my wonderful manager, Anish. Um, he's pretty much the number one manager for LinkedIn content creators. Um- Mm...

265
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he has signed, both before and after signing me, several of my close friends, and, like, it has been an absolute godsend. He's brilliant at this stuff. Um, one of the jokes that I love is

266
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I was giving talks at creator events about how to price yourself and how to, like, drive value, and a lot of the creators I was talking to were, like, amazed at the money I was making from this stuff. Yeah.

267
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And then I started working with, with Anish, and I found out I was not charging enough. Yeah. There you go. And he was getting me, he was getting me numbers like, oh, I w- e- I would've been scared to ask for that. Yeah.

268
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Or, like, like, how do you negotiate? Like, I worked in ad strategy for a long time, but I didn't know how to price myself for, like, the face of a brand campaign. Yeah. I didn't know how to do that.

269
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But what's been really magical now about this is it's also allowed me to be a creative strategist for myself again. Mm. Um, so I have a campaign that'll be coming out probably around when this podcast launches.

270
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Um, so I already alluded to this, and we've, we've talked about how I view myself, my strengths and weaknesses, like, my views on vulnerability. Um, I've now signed with a financial institution- Ah...

271
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who is my, who is my sponsor for both Future Social and Hoop Forever. Oh, here we go. Now, this- And-... I've been wanting to ask about the, any boundaries between this and how they break down or hold up...

272
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and the campaign is going to be about how I'm the worst businessman alive, which was my pitch to them. Incredible.

273
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And I'm gonna talk about all the things I've done wrong, and we're gonna talk about how I'm working with them to, like, fix a lot of my back finances stuff, which, like, is not a result of my businesses not being strong.

274
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It's a result of, like, 20-year-old financial trauma that I inherited from my parents. [laughs] Yeah. Like, but they're gonna help me. Like, I will now talk about this and, like, admit, like, I suck at this.

275
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I'm the worst. Um, and I love using brands to, like, highlight my weaknesses 'cause, like, honestly, at the end of the day, like, I am the kid who always wished he fit in a little more. Yeah.

276
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Like, I've always felt awkward. Like, I grew into myself in my 30s, but, like, I always wanted people to get along. I always want people to feel more seen. Mm-hmm.

277
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I don't think, to be clear, I don't think anyone will pick up on that from my marketing content. They'd be like, "That's an opinionated guy who thinks he's right all the time."

278
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Genuinely, like, I have a lot of strong marketing opinions, but, like, all I want is for people to feel seen. Yeah.

279
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So whenever I can self-deprecate to make other people feel like, oh, like, this guy makes mistakes just like everybody else, like, I try to do it. I try to...

280
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Like, I think it's good for all of us to do that kind of stuff. I agree. Yeah. I mean, it's what has worked in your basketball.

281
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Again, I think this tracks back to, like, what are the, the unique skills you can do as your character, and, like, you being this, like, 6' 5" guy, it's like this, you're this, like, self-deprecating [laughs] gentle giant.

282
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Yeah. Maybe not. I'm, I'm, like, infantilizing you a little bit with that, but you know what I mean? Like, it's like that, that really works, and that's, like, a very appealing character for an ad.

283
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I'm, I'm sure this campaign- Yeah... is gonna be a success, and they'll, they'll [laughs] probably work with you again.

284
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Well, but, but again, like, anybody who knows me from marketing, if they hear you call me a gentle giant, they're probably rolling their eyes. They're like- Yeah... "That guy?" Like, like, the... It's just like...

285
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And I totally get it. Like, and I've, I've spent a lot of time, like, debating, do I like how I sound on the internet? Yeah. Do I wanna change how I sound on the internet? Like- Well, it sounds like you've- And-...

286
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you've tried on different voices. You were saying that earlier. Mm. That you've had different seasons of, like- Totally...

287
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I'm gonna be more antagonistic, or I'm gonna block people, and, like, I'm, you know, I'm gonna be- Totally... seriously plugging her out.And I mean, and I've seen every version of an opinion about me.

288
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I, I mean, I saw a tweet where it's like, "He blocks people of c- any w- any woman or p- person of color that criticize him, he immediate blocks."

289
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It's like, and my response was like, "No, I don't block those people, I block assholes." Yeah. Like, that's why you're not in my feed anymore. Um, and it took me a long time to...

290
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Like, when I first started getting attacked on the internet, then I got... I personally became defensive, I lost myself, I went to therapy for it, like, it's a forever journey, but like it's- Yeah...

291
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I've tried on a lot of different hats. There's tons of things I wish I had done differently, 'cause of course there are. Um, but like for now, I, I am who I am.

292
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293
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294
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295
00:44:12.842 --> 00:44:21.562
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296
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297
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298
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Um, okay, really quick, I wanna close a loop we opened a while ago, [laughs] which was how all your different income streams. So I think we got two- Oh, sorry, yes. [laughs] No, no, you're good.

299
00:44:49.982 --> 00:44:58.582
No, I, I would've, I would've put you back on track if we really... And I'm putting you back on track now. So we had, uh, brand deals and, [laughs] and speaking engagements. I know you also have a course product.

300
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What else do we got? So there's brand deals, speaking engagements. Um, I launched a course last year with Teachable- Mm... um, the, about personal branding.

301
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Um, and my whole philosophy is like, I genuinely believe that any- like, everyone's got an interesting story, and most people just don't know how to tell that story. It is not a how to be a content creator course. Mm.

302
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It is like you're a marketer or a professional and, like, you have so many wonderful opinions. Let's teach you how to share them in a way that helps your career. Um, and like, that course did 50K in month one- Damn...

303
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which was amazing. Um, and I have not promoted it for a second since because I- it's not to my personal standard. Like, so I need, I wanna go- You wanna improve it... redo it next year, improve it.

304
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Well, real- Which- Wait, quick question on that. So there's two prices. I think it's 1,800... Or no, it's, uh, 800. Excuse me.

305
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It's 800 for the course, and then it's, I believe, 1,200 for the course plus a one-hour call with you. How many people opted for the, the call?

306
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So this, this is some, uh, some core strategy stuff that all came from Teachable. They were... They're... And I had a- Mm... partnership with them too, so they helped me- Yeah...

307
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with the strategy of the whole thing, and I made content for them as well. Um, the presale was 50% off of both prices. Mm. Um, the- There you go... they were the ones who told me, "You need two ticket prices."

308
00:46:10.482 --> 00:46:19.982
I wouldn't have thought of that. Um, I wanted to sell this thing for 100 bucks. They're like, "You're insane." Like- [laughs]... "You're not doi- you're not doing that." Yeah. "You're selling it for this." Um, and

309
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something like 40 or 50% bought the upsold version because, and this is something I've undercredited myself, um, and I think I've undercredited all content creators. Yeah. People just wanted the chance to talk to me.

310
00:46:33.922 --> 00:46:44.771
Mm-hmm. Um, and it does... Like, I think hiring someone for consulting, like, feels big, but paying for an hour of my time while you buy a digital product from me feels, like, tangible.

311
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Especially if at 50% off, it's priced lower than the full price of the lower ticket item. Correct.

312
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Um, so a lot of people did that, and a lot of people told me on the call, they're like, "Dude, I've just wanted to pick your brain forever." Like, which was super cool. Like, it's- Yeah...

313
00:46:58.942 --> 00:47:06.912
something that's really important to me is if you pay for my time, that you get extreme value out of it. Yeah. So like I'm very like, "I appreciate that, but how can I help you?" Yeah. Like, let me help you do the thing.

314
00:47:06.912 --> 00:47:17.812
Don't, don't glaze me here. Let's talk about you. [laughs] Totally. Um, but, like, that was... I mean, I just spoke at a digital summit in Dallas- Mm... um, in December, this last week.

315
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Three people flew to come see me speak, which is crazy. I'm like, "That can't ha- Like, who's doing that?" [laughs] Like, people using their budgets to, like, fly...

316
00:47:27.402 --> 00:47:30.882
Like, they're using their educational budgets to come see me speak at another place. Yeah.

317
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Which is like, it's so flattering and, like, it, it makes me, like, it makes me feel great that I've realized, like, I'm actually helping people with this stuff, and there are people out there who, like, want more touchpoints with us as content creators.

318
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Mm-hmm. So like I will relaunch that course, like, 'cause I really, like, it's something I really wanna help people with, is, like, how to speak their mind on, on the internet.

319
00:47:50.942 --> 00:47:56.982
Um, I will at some point build the course I should build, which is Jack Appleby's social media strategy course.

320
00:47:57.542 --> 00:48:06.502
I intentionally didn't build that for my first course, 'cause like I, I don't know exactly what I want it to be. Yeah. It, should it be this huge meaty thing? Who's it for? Do I sell it to agencies?

321
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I don't want a social media manager to give me $1,000 when their company should be spending on this stuff. There's a lot of, like, big thinking that has to go into that.

322
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Do you take- But- Speaking of big companies, like, do you do, like, one-off consulting roles? Like, you know, few month engagement, that kind of thing? I do zero consulting right now. Mm. Um, and people ask why.

323
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I'm busy as it is. I would like to do more, 'cause I miss using that part of my brain. Yeah. Um, but- But you're making enough money to where you don't, like, have to right now, it sounds like.

324
00:48:32.182 --> 00:48:38.292
It would arguably be financially backwards for me to spend- [laughs]... more time consulting. Yeah. Cool. Um, but I miss doing it. Mm-hmm.

325
00:48:38.972 --> 00:48:49.582
Um, so there's the course, which I, I made that 50K up front, and then didn't make anything after that 'cause I didn't promote it. Um, I have Break an Egg, which is my $5 a month LinkedIn prompt service. Mm.

326
00:48:49.742 --> 00:48:59.172
Where what I do is I write, um, I write 30 LinkedIn prompts for you, so you have one for every day, that are not like, "What are your favorite tool sets to use?" Like, that kind of stuff.

327
00:48:59.222 --> 00:49:10.160
It's like things that I've specifically crafted to hopefully help the subscribers mine their own brains for anecdotes and thinking that is unique to them and their experience.That they underrate Mm.

328
00:49:10.220 --> 00:49:17.840
And I specifically price that at five bucks, so it's really important to me to have one thing that's, like, highly s- uh, accessible that anyone can pay for. Mm.

329
00:49:17.870 --> 00:49:29.830
Um, and I've- people have had huge success with that program. They've met new bosses, they've connected with best friends, like, for, like, a very low price. That's done over three years. That's done 87 grand. Damn.

330
00:49:29.890 --> 00:49:39.430
For a b- for a business that I spend two to three hours a month on. That's awesome. Like, which is- which is a reflection of me having practiced personal branding for a long time.

331
00:49:39.530 --> 00:49:44.870
I can pump out like 30 posts like it's nothing Yeah, it's like a steam valve for you. I believe that. Yeah. It's not something that... It's like you're already doing the work, yeah. Exactly.

332
00:49:44.970 --> 00:49:56.030
Um, obviously brand deals on Hoop Forever is a thing as well. Um, is there anything else I do? Hoop, [laughs] Hoop Forever is also your biggest, uh, [laughs] expenditure now it sounds like. Oh, yeah.

333
00:49:56.130 --> 00:50:04.300
Oh, make, make no mistake. Yeah. [laughs] I'm excited for taxes this year where it's like- [laughs] Like, Hoop Forever might report a loss this year. Yeah. [laughs] It probably will. Hopefully.

334
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[laughs] Um, like fingers crossed, right? Um- Yeah... but, uh, I... And I don't spend, I haven't spent any money until recently on the marketing business. Mm. Now I'm spending... Made a mistake. The...

335
00:50:14.590 --> 00:50:24.170
I'm looking at my bank account this month, I'm like, "Oh, I'm spending for the first time," and it's like the set-up month where it's like now I have a manager who gets a percentage of my business, like, a- and a, a percentage he's very much earned.

336
00:50:24.470 --> 00:50:31.590
Mm. But, like, it's percentage. Now I'm having- Hey, you gotta break a few eggs. [laughs] You, you gotta break a few eggs. Um, I am, like, working with...

337
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I mean, perfect example of, like, why I love my manager and how I think about my business: I hired an EA. Mm-hmm. It became very clear to me he was literally asleep at the job- [laughs]...

338
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and using Cha- ChatGPT, like, to do his job. Yeah. And I... He lasted three weeks and I fired him. That's a real VA. That's a real VA. Had to let him go.

339
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I was freaking out, and, like, I was, like, personally hurt that, like, someone- Mm. Like, I feel like someone stole my money, basically. Yeah. And I ba- like, I don't...

340
00:50:58.210 --> 00:51:02.610
I have my own trust issues where I'm like, "I'm letting you in-" We were talking about this, yeah... "and you, and you screwed me over." Like, I...

341
00:51:02.710 --> 00:51:11.010
now I'm, like, going into Thanksgiving with no help, and I'm burning out. Like, it really, like, hurt my feelings, for lack of a better term. [laughs] So what did my manager do?

342
00:51:11.490 --> 00:51:23.740
He found a company that has VAs that is giving me a partnership and staffing my VA. [laughs] There. Like, this is- That's why you hire a manager. [laughs] This is the 4D chess that I'm trying to accomplish. Yeah.

343
00:51:23.770 --> 00:51:33.470
I mean, this is, like... I, for basketball training, I've had PTs where I had deals with them, like branded deals, where it's like, "I don't wanna pay for this." They want exposure. I'm like, "Happy to.

344
00:51:33.770 --> 00:51:43.410
Let's do an in-kind trade." I'm trying to make as much of my life branded as possible without ever selling out and being a lifestyle content creator. [laughs] Well, it, and it, it doesn't look like it from the outside.

345
00:51:43.510 --> 00:51:54.250
Um, question I wanted to ask: you have been posting recently about a 2026 prediction newsletter. You've been soliciting- Mm... from your audience, uh, 2026 predictions.

346
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By the time this comes out, we will be a few weeks into 2026. I wonder if there's anything you wanna share that people have sent in or that you're thinking about, um, what, what's in the air for 2026?

347
00:52:05.840 --> 00:52:09.850
[laughs] You know what's funny? I was so proud of the 2025 predictions newsletter. Oh.

348
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I thought there were some pretty sophisticated takes, like, both from my own writing and from my, my readers, and, like, some people I've reached out to who I, I- Mm... really value their opinion. Um,

349
00:52:19.770 --> 00:52:25.470
my big take on 2026 is that it's gonna be a lot more of 2025. Yeah. Like, I, I don't...

350
00:52:26.090 --> 00:52:37.110
I think the biggest things in the air are, like, I think we should continue to see how YouTube is becoming, like, a TV channel, basically. Mm-hmm. Like, we watch, like, YouTube TV consumption's so high. Um,

351
00:52:38.150 --> 00:52:45.020
I think within the marketing world, the takes you're seeing are like, "Brands are gonna make more long-form content." I'm like, "No, they're not. They're not staffed for that. They don't know how to do it." Yeah.

352
00:52:45.020 --> 00:52:55.720
"They're not gonna spend money on it. They're not going to. I don't think it's gonna happen." Um, I think short-form vertical is, like... I think we're in the infancy of short-form vertical. I think they're...

353
00:52:57.130 --> 00:53:04.270
I complain a lot about the rigor of social media. I do think next year's gonna become a lot more sophisticated. Yeah. I think ROI conversations are gonna be very real.

354
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I think, um, are we driving real value for ourselves is gonna be very real. Um, and I do think the space is just gonna keep become...

355
00:53:13.550 --> 00:53:20.510
There's more and more content out there, so you're gonna have to make better and better content- I agree with that... to r- to expose, like, to get your content seen.

356
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Like, I think that's- And that's, I think that's true for creators, brands, and advertisers who are, you know, paid advertising.

357
00:53:25.750 --> 00:53:39.430
Like, I think everyone is kind of like, everyone is always stealing little formats from each other, and so, like, everything kind of converges, and the quality converges, and it's easier for a creator to make, like, the, you know, something of the same quality that a brand with a huge budget has, and now it's easier.

358
00:53:39.630 --> 00:53:50.460
Brands are understa- and, like, n- news outlets, media companies are understanding how to make formats that, like, feel n- creator native. It's all kind of converging. [laughs] Yeah, I mean, I, I- Always is...

359
00:53:50.470 --> 00:53:58.050
honestly, I'm- Alwa- it, it always is... like, totally. Yeah, not just this year. Uh, rumor, rumor has it people are gonna pivot to video next year. Um, no, I, I think the...

360
00:53:58.400 --> 00:54:07.770
Something I'm doubling down on, I, I think a lot of my 2025 predictions were, like, a little early maybe. Yeah. Um, I think way more- Recycling. [laughs] Yeah, well, I, and I, and I will...

361
00:54:07.800 --> 00:54:15.440
I'm a- I'm actually planning on, like, like mentioning, like, this was last year, and I think- Mm-hmm... I was either wrong or... Like, I'm big on, like, being early is the same as being wrong. That's true.

362
00:54:15.450 --> 00:54:24.500
Predictions are fun. You can... Like, they're just, you get to, like, say whatever you want. But, um, I think more content creator skillsets within brands- Mm... will be a big part of this.

363
00:54:24.670 --> 00:54:34.970
I think one of the big challenges right now is a lot of content creation is being handed to social media managers, which 10 years ago was fine, 'cause it was like, "Let's learn Canva- Let's tweet...

364
00:54:35.010 --> 00:54:43.950
or Adobe Express- Yeah... or tweet." Now it's like, can you make compelling video content? Like- And can you host it and shoot it and edit it? And that's a whole nother conversation. Yeah.

365
00:54:43.970 --> 00:54:57.090
Like, should people be public-facing as social media managers? Like, there's so much discourse here. Um, I don't... I, I do not have, like, a particularly spicy, um, prediction for 2026. I think, um,

366
00:54:58.290 --> 00:55:02.390
you're, it's, you just gotta make better and better content, and I think that's... I do feel like I'm sensing

367
00:55:03.390 --> 00:55:12.646
in both the social media marketing world and the content creator world, people are realizing, like-We just gotta make better content. We j- like, that's the only way to get seen.

368
00:55:12.686 --> 00:55:21.926
There's no way around that Yeah The algorithms aren't fighting against us. You're not shadowbanned. You just gotta make better stuff because it's so competitive out there.

369
00:55:21.966 --> 00:55:31.246
Like, one of my favorite quotes I, and I've been using this quote for, I think at least 10 years- Mm-hmm... um, a creative director at Adidas said, like, it was so...

370
00:55:31.316 --> 00:55:40.386
I'll paraphrase a little bit, but it's something along to the point of like, "Nike is not our competitor. Like, Netflix and Fortnite are our competitors." Yeah. Like, we, like, it, this is about timeshare.

371
00:55:40.566 --> 00:55:49.206
This is about, like, wallet share. At, at my last job, I remember my boss told me this thing that I, I will never forget. When he said, "Francis, we're not competing with other companies in our niche.

372
00:55:49.406 --> 00:55:57.436
We're just competing with anything you can look at on your phone." Totally. Um, I mean, and that's, and then you get into whole really sophisticated conversations about social strategy, where it's like- Yeah...

373
00:55:57.536 --> 00:56:05.936
how do you stand out while still representing your product? And then I go to young social media managers say, "I promise you every product is interesting if you actually care about that." Mm-hmm.

374
00:56:05.946 --> 00:56:12.886
Like, how to make that interesting. And if you're good at that, you will find the right customers for your audience, and it will work. Like, this does work.

375
00:56:12.946 --> 00:56:20.496
Was it you who I saw a post the other day about, like, stop making, like, the horrible, like, Spotify Wrapped spoofs for your brand? Like, like, you know, stop making the things- [laughs]...

376
00:56:20.496 --> 00:56:25.086
for the brand you wish you worked at- [laughs]... and make stuff that's actually about your product. I, I don't know if that was you. That was- I think that was you...

377
00:56:25.106 --> 00:56:33.356
that was a snarky comment I left on someone else's post- Yeah [laughs]... who was already making that post. Um, yeah. Oh, boy. It's, I mean, that's... Dude, I will never...

378
00:56:33.786 --> 00:56:41.926
Great anecdote from when I was working in social strategy. I went to work for Verizon, was my final traditional agency social strat job, leading, leading social strategy for them.

379
00:56:42.026 --> 00:56:53.466
Um, one of my junior strategists made a brief for the whole creative team about, um... I don't even remember what it was about. It was for a cultural moment. Yeah. The word Verizon was not in the brief.

380
00:56:54.466 --> 00:57:04.966
[laughs] And I was new, so, like, I couldn't, like... And this kid was, like, sassy. Yeah. Um, and when I pulled him aside and talked to him, I was like, "Hey, what does this have to do with our company?"

381
00:57:04.986 --> 00:57:10.706
He goes, "Well, what does anybody care about our company?" [laughs] I'm like... I wanted to throw something. I tried to fire him twice- Yeah... and my boss wouldn't let me.

382
00:57:11.646 --> 00:57:20.386
You have to care about the brand you work for, even if it's hard. And like, dude, I've had some really hard [laughs] social jobs where it's like, how do I make people care about a phone company? Yeah. How do I make...

383
00:57:20.426 --> 00:57:29.486
Like, what am I... I thought they were fun, but, like... I, I ran social for V- uh, Ranstrong. I, I was a social strategist for Microsoft Surface.

384
00:57:30.266 --> 00:57:39.986
That's a tough product to sell through content, and we did our best, and some of the stuff we did worked, some didn't. But, like, everything we did was why you should care about Surface- Yeah...

385
00:57:40.026 --> 00:57:48.106
or how Surface can make your life better. Yeah. And I, like, I'm just amazed how that seems like rocket science to so many brands. Yeah.

386
00:57:48.346 --> 00:57:54.966
Well, I think it goes back a bit, too, to what you were saying earlier about, like, people who, they just care about social media. They don't care about the marketing, right?

387
00:57:55.046 --> 00:58:02.826
I mean, that's kinda what you're describing here is, like- Yeah... you have to care about more than getting 10,000 views, right? Like, that's an outcome. Yeah. That's not the point.

388
00:58:02.906 --> 00:58:07.286
But anyways, this has been Creative Spotlight. Thank you for listening. We will see you next week.

389
00:58:08.706 --> 00:58:27.286
[outro music]