We posted that video, and it got something like 16 million views on this one video. Yeah. And the song went bananas. Brands now want to find success organically. Everyone's looking for, like, that viral soundbite.
Gen Z specifically, like, they wanna see random, random shit. You are really good at, like, communicating with both sides to, like, find that thing.
There's, there's other companies that do stuff in this world, but I don't think anyone does it like us. I- the reason I hate myself for saying that is because- Welcome back to the Creator Spotlight podcast.
Today's guest is Penn Weinberger, founder and head of the agency Bad Behavior. Uh, Bad Behavior works with creators to produce original short-form shows for brands.
They've worked with clients like Lyft, Columbia Records, Cash App, and Stanley, so a lot of big clients. Um, Penn, thank you for coming on the show.
First thing I wanna ask, do you consider Bad Behavior a content agency, a creator agency, an influencer agency, or something else entirely? Great question, and, uh, thanks for having me.
Obviously, very excited- Yeah, of course... to be here. That's a good question and something that we go back and forth on a lot. I would say, in general, we describe ourselves as a branded content studio. Mm-hmm.
Um, really our north star is, is operating as the outsource content studio for, for branded entertainment, so typically working directly with brands.
And obviously, as part of that we're doing so much creator stuff, a lot of influencer stuff. Mm-hmm. But original content production is really our, our MO, so that's usually what we, what we back into. Okay, yeah.
That makes sense. Uh, so this is something I, I'd like to get into. I'm not sure the difference matters so much always, but I think it's always an interesting conversation.
What do you think the difference is between a creator and an influencer? Great question, and obviously insanely nuanced. Lot of overlap. Yeah. I think, in short,
I would say a creator is someone who is really creating something for themselves that may- Yeah... or may not end up growing an audience from that. Yeah.
So I think that with the, uh, obviously with, like, TikTok and short-form video, I think that most of the new people coming from that are creators.
I think that once they hit a certain level, and they almost have that built-in audience recognition, brand affinity to- for their personal brand, they're able to sometimes cross over into being an influencer. Yeah.
I think, like, generally the way I sum it up if I had to look at it in black and white is if you're making stuff on TikTok or, or YouTube or YouTube Shorts, you're a creator.
If you're someone who's coming from a reality show like Love Island, and now you make, uh, little, little ads on Instagram, you're an influencer. Okay. Um, and I would say- That's really interesting...
it's also, like, creativity versus- Uh-huh... like, lifestyle as well. Yes. I think that creativity versus lifestyle thing i- is where I kinda get at it. Like, for me, like, the in- in...
A creator is somebody who's, like, they're about the craft. They're, like, maybe they're doing, you know, they're filming, they're writing, they're doing all this stuff.
Whereas the influencer is like, I still have that, like, you know, definition of, like, a, of, like, a decade ago where it's, like, somebody who's just, like, making Instagram posts, like, shilling a brand. Yeah.
And, and to me, like, where I've kinda come to it is, like, an influencer is almost like, uh, yeah, the distinction s- almost doesn't matter.
Like, maybe if, if a creator makes a post that's just like, uh, you know, maybe they, maybe they're a big YouTuber, but they make an Instagram post that's just, like, shilling a product or, like, a partnership with a brand.
Like, that's them- Yeah... doing the act of influencing, but they're not, like, they're an influencer in that post, but they're not necessarily an influencer generally.
Um, I don't know, but I, I thought it was interesting, interesting too that you said you work with both creators and influencers, like, on, on behalf of brands. Definitely, and it's, it's weird.
I feel like a large part of it is the eyeball test- Yeah... where you can see someone's profile and you're like, "Oh, creator." Yeah. [laughs] "Oh, influencer." And a lot of it is, is how they think of themselves.
I mean, for an influencer- Mm-hmm... I feel like one tends to think of, like, a, a fashion girly or something like that. Yeah. Or someone who is- It's, it's more feminized too as, like, a stereotype. For sure.
Maybe slightly more aesthetic. Yeah. Uh, while with, like, creators, it, it's anything from, like, animation to ASMR to- Mm-hmm...
someone just taking a, a phone out around their friends and, like, creating funny little comedy videos. I mean, that's like- Yeah... that's like the root of, like, creating.
It's like craftsperson versus, versus salesperson. Exactly. Exactly. Yeah. And I, I think, like, in this day and age, there can be, like, a little bit of a negative connotation around being an influencer at times.
Mm-hmm. Uh, which is why for us, 90% of the time we're using the terminology of creator. Yeah.
Even if we're working with someone who thinks of themself as an influencer, we're trying to plug them into our, into our operation as a creator. Yeah.
So you've spent your whole career working with, like, working with both brands and creators, but always with brands as the clients, right? The creators are never the clients? Correct, yeah. Yeah.
Um, why, why do you, like, uh, why, what draws you to this as opposed to, like, a more talent agency model where it's like you're, where you might essentially be doing the same thing- Yeah...
but, like, representing the create- the creators rather than the brands? It's a good question. I think that the traditional model is, is pretty built out. I mean, people know what it is. Yeah. People,
everything is, to some extent, black and white. Like, people have a rough idea of rates. People are measuring off of engagement rates- Mm-hmm...
bookmarks, shares, and it's things that have existed for a long time, even when it was just static Instagram pages. Yeah. I think what I'm drawn to is that
TikTok has been around for a while at this point, but people still don't even really know what it is. Yeah. Short-form video is evolving every single day, where, I mean, YouTube Shorts is still relatively new.
Um, you have other platforms like Amazon, I believe they launched, like, their Amazon Inspire, which is around short-form video. Mm-hmm. And what's clear is that it's kind of a space race, right- Yeah...
for brands looking to win in this new avenue of social media.So for me, I'm drawn to, like, the white space of it all, where it's like, to some extent having the opportunity to be, like, a, a pioneer.
Like, we're building- Yeah... this thing out. Like, we're, we're almost making the rules that are going to be the black and white rules people look back on in a few years. Yeah.
And I think for me, like- In the same way that, like, with, like, the Bloomberg campaign, you were kind of, like, doing the walk so X- Yeah... can run. Yeah. Exactly. Exactly.
And I think that's, like, when I look back at my career in whatever, how many years, like, I wanna be able to, like, point out, like, moments that impacted culture. Like, for me- Yeah...
I'm, like, pretty big on, like, what can I do that, like... So for me, like, just, like, as a side note, like, a lot of my friends are not in this, like, social medias, online space- Yeah... at all.
So, like, a north star for me is, like, what can I do in my job that they'll see in their day-to-day life and not even know that I had anything to do with it, or that- Yeah...
I know the person who had anything to do with it. That's, like, your, your biggest, like, w- win personally. Exactly. Then it's like, all right, now this is not just out of, like, the LinkedIn echo chamber.
It's, like, actually reaching, like, the masses- Yeah... who just consume. Um, can you walk me through, like, the life cycle of a deal, because you do work with a brand. Like, what...
So, like, you know, brand approaches you looking for something to campaign goes live and you report it. What's, like, the life cycle of this now at Bad Behavior? Great question.
So brands typically will come to us one of two ways.
Either they'll have a fleshed out idea and they just don't have the bandwidth or the team to bring it to life, or they'll say, like, "Hey, we know that our TikTok presence sucks, and, like, we really need to juice it up.
Like, can you- Yeah... can you help us?" In the, in the second case, our team handles everything from ideation, talent sourcing, and, and management and contracting through production and community management. Mm-hmm.
So if we have a new format, let's just say we're gonna do an in-studio game show- Yeah... just for example. Uh, first we'll, we'll align on what the high level concepts are.
Um, sometimes we, we bring that to them before we lock in, I guess, the partnership. Sometimes- Mm-hmm... we do the partnership, then we do the talent ideation.
Once we're there, the, the talent is obviously such a integral part of, like, success on social. How much freedom do you often, like, give talent?
Like, 'cause I, I've, I've worked in, like, a past job I've worked with creators where, like, we are pretty strict and then, or times where it's like, "Hey, we just like what you do.
Here's, like, basically what we're trying to do, and I trust you to, like, come up with the creative." I would say it's- Like range... it's a happy medium. Yeah.
We definitely want their personality, and we definitely always ask them to, like, "Hey, feel free to, like, improv this. Feel free to ad-lib. Like, the, the script we're sending you is really just, like, guidelines."
You know what I mean? It's kinda just like, "Don't go too far this way. Don't go too far this way." But you can tell when a creator or an influencer is saying something that's not in their own voice, and no one- Yeah...
no one wants that. Uh, like, they're not happy, we're not happy, the, the viewer- No one's happy... is not happy. Yeah. Mm-hmm. Um, so we usually try to empower them as much as possible.
Like, honestly, like, when we do original content,
our whole goal is really just putting a team around this creator so they can do what they do best and not worry about, like, the, the BS things like putting a team together or editing- Yeah...
or, or pulling a stranger off the street to ask them if they can, if we can see their apartment. You know what I mean? Yeah. Stuff like that.
Um- I mean, I've, I've, I've done the, I've been the person asking people on the street to interview them before. I, I... It's, it's hard. It's really hard.
Like, I, I've done it before, it's, like, me and then somebody filming, and- Yeah... it, it's really tough. It is. Like, for me, even though I definitely sit on, like, the, the business, partnership- Yeah...
sales side of things, I always make sure that, like, every couple months, like, I'm going out into the street and I'm, I'm- Yeah... being the guy pulling people, because I think it's like- Feeling reality. Yeah.
It's like you need to, like, you need to know what it's like. I, I think for us, like, we're really trying to, like, upset the traditional agency model. Yeah.
Because we've seen times where they've tried to do what we do, and because they're maybe a little too, definitely not trying to throw shade, but, like, corporate or, like- Yeah...
traditional, they don't quite know what it takes to go out and film this sort of content. To do the thing, yeah. What... Wait, what do you...
So tell me more what you mean by, like, upsetting the traditional agency model. So I think that for, like, a lot of traditional agencies, they're used to, like, crazy ad spend and these, like- Mm-hmm...
beautiful, polished assets, which they're amazing at. You know what I mean? Yeah. And I think that brands now want to find success organically, so the, the beautiful, polished assets don't work as much.
You really wanna find, like, real conversations. Everyone's looking for, like, that viral soundbite. Um, so you have a lot of brands that are seen on, popular on street shows, and they're saying- Mm...
"Hey, we wanna create something like this." And they go to their agency, and the agency doesn't know how to do that, because you're not gonna see their, someone on their team go out into the street with a camera- Yeah...
um, and pull people off the street. You know what I mean? A lot of them, the editors they have are, like, real high level editors, like they're producing ads. Yeah. They're, they're producing, like, TV commercials.
Like, they're very talented, but they just, they're not, like... They, they're, they don't have, they lack, like, the scrappiness. Exactly. And, like, I think Gen Z specifically, like, they wanna see random,
pardon my language, random shit. You know what I mean? Yeah. Yeah. Like, a lot of the time they want to- Well, we've already said fuck, Jerry, so don't worry about it. [laughs] Okay. Okay, phew. Good.
[laughs] Um, they wanna see stuff that looks like it's something they would make. They wanna, they wanna- Yeah... they want something that they wanna follow. Mm-hmm.
And I think that these traditional ad agencies don't quite understand that social voice. I think they're great at, like, polished.
They're definitely great at, like, the backend metrics, knowing how to drive people from A to B and, like- Mm-hmm... A/B testing and stuff like that.
But we're able to do it much faster, we're able to do it definitely much cheaper and, and better. Yeah. Um, okay, I wanna get back into more, like, the, the nuts and bolts of, of how you do the work.
Your kind of special skill is, like-Being, if it could be like boiled down, is like being a whis-- a brand whisperer, where like you are really good at like
k-kind of processing what a brand is looking like, uh, looking for when they're like, "Ah, we wanna, uh, be better on social. We want like, we really wanna make something that's like actually cool."
Um, you're really good at being like, "Okay," like, "I got you. I understand that. Let me go find like...
" You know what to look like in a creator that like helps, um, that will like meet their, their kind of KPIs or needs, whatever, but then also kind of like massage what that creator is doing into something.
Like you're real- You're good at communicating with both sides to like find that thing. I like to think so. I mean, I'm, I'm definitely surrounded by like great people that like- Yeah...
are more creative than me, um, which like I'll be the first to say, like I like to think I'm like so creative, but like- Yeah... I'm not a pure creative. Um, but that's essentially our model, where we're,
we're taking both of these like strong sources and like putting them together to create something that's, that's unique. And I think the big word is like ownable. Like how can- Yeah...
how can you create something that allows you to become kind of like a, a, a pillar or like someone- Mm-hmm... else's North Star on social media? Yeah.
I think the like- Then when everyone's like, "Oh, like we wanna be like Duolingo," you can just be like, "Everyone, yeah."
I was gonna say, like everyone points to like Duolingo, and it's like, okay, not everyone can do like a mascot as much as- Yeah... other brands have tried.
Um, but in their own way, like brands, that's like what a brand wants to be on social, and a lot of the time it has to be creator led. Yeah. Um, okay, so why...
I, uh, I feel like the answer is just that this is what you like to do, but why do you start Bad Behavior instead of like doing literally anything else, like getting a job at a bigger agency, getting a job in-house at a brand, whatever it is?
Why do you- Yeah... start this agency? So I- I think it has to come down to like having a chance to like build something that's, that's my own. Yeah.
I, I think that like my whole life I've really just been interested in like having that runway to just create.
Uh, and, and at Fallen, I was really, really lucky to work with people and have, have bosses and managers that invested in me and that honestly let me- Yeah... be my own boss in full.
Uh, and honestly, I wasn't ready to say bye to that. I didn't wanna just kind of go be an employee somewhere else. Yeah. You can't go backwards. Exactly. And, and I felt like we had really,
a really strong foundation to, to build off of. Mm-hmm. And at the time, I mean, I still do think this, I, I think that there is still a ton of white space and like undiscovered
worlds in terms of like short-form content. Yeah. And for me, like that's, that's definitely what I'm interested in building out.
There's, there's other companies that do stuff in this world, but I don't think anyone does it like us, and I didn't wanna just- Yeah...
again, plug into someone else's operation and just be another cog in their, in their machine. Yeah.
So okay, this is something I wanna talk about for a second, is like when you started doing this with Jerry Media, short-form wasn't really a thing yet.
Um, and now it's like really is a thing, and it's your bread and butter. Do you like... You know, the, the constant pace of change, people talking about TikTok ban, whatever. Um,
are you like diversifying much outside of that? Are you worried about like...
I mean, I don't think short-form's going anywhere, to be clear, and I don't think you do either, but are you like trying to like work with more creators in like y- whether it's newsletters or f- long-form YouTube or like whatever it is?
Yes. So we're definitely diversifying in, in that- Yeah... like the short-form content we produce. We're always recommending, "Let's put it on Reels. Let's put it on YouTube Shorts."
We found that if you create with TikTok as like your, your vision- Mm-hmm... it can work on the other platforms. Where if you create for Instagram and you move it to TikTok, it feels out of place. It doesn't really work.
Really, huh? Uh, 'cause I think that a lot of people consume Reels because they don't wanna download TikTok or they don't wanna get- Yeah, myself included. Exactly.
They don't wanna get like sucked into the TikTok s- doom scrolling, so they just pretend that they're not doing it by sticking on Instagram. Mm-hmm. Um, where a lot of it is just like reposts.
But the Instagram algorithm has gotten much better. Now it's like no different for me, really. [laughs] Exactly. It's the same exact thing. Yeah. Um, so we're always recommending posting there, where if you see like...
I think it goes back to the influencer conversation, where a lot of Instagram content is influencer led versus- Mm... creator led. Mm. So when you move this influencer led content to TikTok, you can tell.
It's like almost like a, a wolf in sheep's clothing to a certain extent. Yeah. [laughs] Like it's not, it's not quite native. Stands out, yeah. Exactly. So short-form is definitely still our MO.
I think right now something we're exploring is taking like a higher level talent or a celebrity- Mm... or an athlete even and attaching them to a creator, a format that's traditionally creator led. Yeah.
Uh, so almost leaning into like sports media or just something that's a bit more elevated, lifts the hood up on who these people really are- Mm...
while still presenting it in a way that's, that's very like bite-sized, very digestible, leaning heavily into cut downs, stuff like that.
This, so this is actually something that's interesting to me in terms of like how the lines start to blur between creator and celebrity, and I think like we're long past the point where like s- you know, creators are celebrities.
Um, but like the way you're talking about like, oh, taking more traditional celebrities and making this like content that looks like creator content, to me then too it's like with creators, like is the creator's goal then just to like create a show that turns them into a traditional celebrity?
Again, it's one of these things where it's like, uh, do these like distinctions and titles really matter?
It's ultimately all just like entertainment that people look at on their phone, and it's just about like, for people like you on the business side, it's just about like trying to get people to watch this content on their phone.
Um, yeah, I don't know. Uh, just like kind of philosophically, what do you think about this like the coming together of like creator and celebrity, not culture, but like the, the way these are presented?
Like, I guess for me, uh, I, I'll give you [laughs] my answer before I let you answer.
Um, to me, it's about like the celebrities usually still have more security, and for them, this is like an experiment, whereas the creators, it's more of like attempting to bootstrap into celebrity, right? Yeah.
I think that's a great way to put it. I think like overall-The one word that comes to mind is it's, like, very, it's very bizarre. I mean- Yeah... the whole thing is, like, it's, it's all a gray area. Mm-hmm.
Y- you see creators, I mean, like, a random example of, like, one person that comes to mind is, like, Brianna Chickenfry. Yeah.
Where, like, when TikTok was, like, in its, like, viral growth stage- I actually don't know who she is except for the fact that her and Zach Bryan broke up recently. Exactly. I, I like Zach Bryan. [laughs] Um, totally.
I mean, she was- Yeah... like, just, like, this, this creator who would make, like, videos POV style. Mm. And she built a really dedicated following, and then she got picked up by Barstool to do, like- Yeah...
this, like, BFF podcast. Mm. And I think once she started going there, she started getting a little bit more celebrity- Yeah... uh, just by being attached to, like, Dave Portnoy and, like, the Barstool machine.
And then she started dating Zach Bryan. Yeah. And obviously he's, like, a true celebrity, and then that kind of, like, blurred her into being a full celebrity now- Yeah...
where she's, like, Page Six, you know what I mean? People magazine, like, about the breakup. Uh- Well, this is, wait.
The, something that's interest- interesting to me about this too is, like, uh, Hailey Welch, Hawk Tuah girl, is, like, a really good example of this where, like- Yeah...
for a while it seemed like she was a really good example of, like, kind of creating celebrity out of a viral cre- you could call it creator moment. I don't even know if... She wasn't really the creator of that.
She was just happening to be in a creator's video. But creating maybe a lasting creator or celebrity out of this viral moment.
But then I saw some numbers, uh, a day or two ago about, like, the, the Hawk Tuah podcast, the podcast they made, they made for her, and how the numbers are dropping. For a second it was, like, number four- Mm...
in the country. Now it's, like, number 52 or whatever. Um, all of which is saying maybe a difference between creator and celebrity is, like, celebrity, um, has roots.
Then, like, you know, in the way that, like, roots are what, uh, you know, protect a tree in a storm from, like, blowing over. The roots- Yeah... you know, it's whatever.
Whereas, like, the creator, maybe if, if you've been a creator for eight to 10 years, then you have those roots, but maybe that's the crucial difference is, like, the depth and strength of the roots and background that, like- Mm-hmm...
give security in the attention market. Yeah. Yeah, and, like, another person coming to mind, I feel like an example of someone who's all three, like, a creator, an influencer, and a celebrity is, like- Yeah...
MrBeast- Yeah... for example, where he's, like, the biggest example. Um, but, but I think something he's done exceptionally well, which a lot of creators we found are trying to almost follow in their own way, is
setting up other business, other form- Yes... other income streams. Where obviously it's like- Which is more about those roots than stability. Yeah. Exactly.
And, I mean, we're even seeing companies that pop up with the intention of working with creators to create their own products. Mm.
Um, so obviously you have some creators that will do, like, a T-shirt or a hat, and some people buy it. Yeah.
But then you have other creators that maybe try to do, like, their own makeup line, or they try to do their own skincare or something that's, like, actually tangible that they can, they can market themselves. Yeah.
Um, which almost feels very similar to, like, Ryan Reynolds. I'm forgetting which company, but I know, like, he- Yeah. Mint Mobile... buys companies. Yeah. There's a bunch. Makes himself the face- Yeah...
and then, and then sells it, and it's, like, almost the, the creator model- Yeah... in the celebrity world. Oh, wait.
So I think, one thing I think about creators is, like, there's, I mean, in any creative industry this is the case where there's some people who are really good at the creative side, some people who are really good at the business side- Yeah...
some people who are really good at both. Um, and, like, that's, that's where you come in is, like, you work with, you work with brands who maybe lack that crea- I mean, maybe the creative in anyway, in other ways.
They lack that creative insight, um, and you work with creators who maybe lack the business savvy.
Um, and I think, like, you're talking about, like, these businesses setting up to build businesses for creators, like, that is, that's, again, that's the, like, these people don't necessarily always know how to, like, monetize their attention- Yeah...
turn attention into revenue. Um, I think then, like, the, the dark side of that is, like, there's so, there's just s- s- so many creators, more and more now, right?
Like, even five years ago when you started in this industry there was much less and they were less sophisticated. And now there's like, it's just so much more, um, competitive.
Uh, so I wanna talk about money for a second and, like, how, how you guys structure deals.
You don't have to tell me, like, exactly, like, what your average deal price or whatever is, but just, like, some, whatever, ballpark, like, give us a picture of how it works.
So, like, what does a project look like, say, in terms of the structure of a deal for it to be worthwhile for you? And maybe it's, like, obviously it varies a lot, but I don't know if you have an example. Yeah.
So I would say our, our standard most offered model is us operating as, like, the always on content partner for a brand. Okay.
M- meaning that specifically for their TikTok, sometimes Reels, sometimes YouTube Shorts, we are producing upwards of 20 to 30 video assets per month- Wow. Yeah... and really just kind of feeding the machine.
Sometimes that can look like one content format, like let's just say an on-street fashion show. Yeah.
Sometimes that can look like a combination of the on-street fashion show plus elevated UGC, um, with, like, specific brand li- brand guidelines that are placed in there, like everyone has to wear pink. Mm.
Or there always needs to be a little logo or a little, like, Easter egg in the background, something like that. Yeah. For stuff like that, the brand is typically paying us on a retainer basis anywhere from, like,
I don't know, 10 to $50,000 per month. Yeah. Uh, I would say the biggest variables within that are the level of talent that we're using. Mm-hmm.
So we work with some brands that are cool working with the up-and-comer, so the creator that we know is gonna pop off at some point, but they haven't popped off. That you want to develop a show with kinda. Yeah. Exactly.
We're like, "Hey, this person's a rising star. They have 20,000 followers today, but I bet if we check back in in six months they're gonna be at, like, 320,000 followers." Yeah.
And at that point- And us doing this and, like, paying them to, like, work full-time on this will also enable that. Exactly. And, and it's also the cost.
Like, hey, if we get them to 320,000 followers, they're gonna be-32 times more expensive- Yeah... than they are today.
Um, so- What, so actually, sorry to interrupt, what, what kind of like fees are you able to get for creators? And like what are the factors besides, like, maybe it's just like w- who their audience is and how big it is.
But yeah, I'm interested too in like for the creator audience who might be wanting to work with brands or like- Yeah... work with an agency like you, what can they expect usually?
So it's, it's interesting, because a lot of creators think in terms of paying for a post on their own channel. Yeah. Where it's like, "Hey, we're Nike.
We want you to do a, a post around our new running shoe for Black Friday." Mm. Uh, the creator's like, "All right, my rate's 5,000."
Nike's like, "Okay, we'll pay you 3,000," and then they ideally meet somewhere in the middle, or sometimes they meet at 3,000 'cause it's- Yeah... the brand's money.
Um, so we definitely do some of that stuff where it's like through traditional creator partnership. But for a lot of what we do, we are using this creator as a, as a host. Mm-hmm.
So rather than paying them to post on their own channel, we're giving them an hourly rate or a project rate, uh, which a lot of the time can look completely different because we're not- Yeah...
tapping into their audience. A lot of the time we don't even tag the creator in the content. They're truly- You just want the talent. Yeah. They are truly just talent. They are truly just- Mm...
a face or one of a few faces for a brand. And for that, on the low end, we're paying anywhere from 100 an hour to 10, 20K per, for a package of, of hours- Wow. Yeah... or for a project.
Um, so the biggest, yeah, the biggest cost variable is level of talent and then the content format. Mm-hmm.
Uh, where if we're working with an up-and-comer, it's actually much cheaper to create a volume of content if we're filming it ourselves rather than paying a, a UGC creator for one asset. Yeah.
Um, s- the creators you're, we're usually working with, I imagine they're probably all independent, not necessarily- Mm... represented by an agent or a manager, right?
Because unless it's a really big deal, um, like where you have a, a l- really big budget to work with, having like another agent or manager probably would just like make it too expensive, and you're kind of looking, your talent too is looking for the, the diamonds in the rough.
I would say it's actually a mix. Oh, okay. So something else that we've seen is it seems like a lot of smaller creators now have management- Yeah...
even if they wouldn't have had management a couple years ago at that same level. Mm. Oh, interesting. Yeah.
Um, and if I had to guess, it's probably a matter of, same as the music industry, everyone's looking for that next big- [laughs]... artist, right? Yeah.
Everyone wants Billie Eilish when she only has 100 streams on SoundCloud, um, because then you're still there when she has 100 million streams. Yeah. So I think if people are going more and more after that on,
on social when they're looking at these creators- Yeah... and I think it also plugs- As the industry matures. Mm-hmm. Exactly.
And it also, I mean, plugs right into like being a niche creator, where, let's just say you're a lifestyle creator. I don't know, you post random stuff, and you have 20,000 followers. Obviously, good for you.
I don't have 20,000 followers. Yeah. Like you've grown an audience. That's a lot of people. But if you have 20,000 followers, and you are a fashion creator- Mm...
like you strictly post about fashion, you're gonna get invited to real events. You're gonna get- Yeah... outreach from like real brands because you're in that niche. You have an opinionated point of view. Exactly.
So because of that, like managers are, are going after these people because they want, they want a piece. They wanna help them- Mm... grow. They want, they wanna open them up to their own network. Yeah.
Who are the people you're usually working with on the brand side? Like what are their titles? It really ranges. I think on the low end it's, it's like a social media strategist. Mm-hmm.
On the high end it's like VP of marketing, brand marketing, uh, content lead, social lead. Really an- an- anything in between there. Um- Yeah.
What are the KPIs, uh, or like specific goals they're usually setting, or like the most common KPI or goal? So it ranges. I mean, we definitely get like follower growth for sure. Yeah. Um- For a brand account.
Yeah, exactly. I think like the, the big one, and the one that we're always trying to push, is like reception and eyeball test. Mm.
E- especially coming from a perspective where we've seen shows not perform and then all of a sudden take off and become like brands themselves. Yeah. We're always preaching patience, obviously to an extent.
Like we're not afraid to pivot away from something that we don't think is working based on the numbers. Um- Mm... but a lot of the time you can watch a video, and we can say like, "No, like this video is great.
Like maybe it just didn't hit today." Yeah. Um, but if w- if we keep posting consistently every day, we know that there's something here. That's what matters, yeah.
Uh, but then of course a, a big one is always gonna be like bookmarks and shares. Mm-hmm. For us, we're always looking like deeper as well, like percent of video watched.
Are people clicking away after five seconds, or are they watching 40% of the video? 'Cause in that case, that's pretty strong. Yeah.
Um- I imagine this is actually probably a big part of your job too is like maybe educating the brands you're working with on this. 'Cause maybe they think it's like followers- Yes. [laughs]... or like whatever.
They, they're not, they, they want to like, they want to like duplicate what Duolingo is doing, whatever, back to that example, but they aren't necessarily sure exactly what that means, and like you are like advoca- advocating for like, "This is how you should be thinking about it."
Totally. Yeah. And then, I mean, the big one of course is like when you see a video pop. Yeah. There's no better feeling- To see that video...
um, seeing the video like, "Oh my God," like it's first at 12,000 views, and it's like, damn, and now it's at 200,000. Yeah. Like 800,000. And you can like feel the excitement there.
Like everyone is like, "All right, there's like something here. This is, this is what we were talking about when we were first pitching you guys." Yeah.
Um, like that's like, that's the best feeling for sure when you have a great client. Yeah. We did it, guys. Yeah. Uh, okay. I wanna get into like maybe some advice for a second.
So one, what, so what does it take to develop a really good, lasting, high-potential creator-led show? I mean, and, and again, I know it like varies a lot, but what are some of like, I don't know, a few ground rules?
I would say the number one ground rule is consistency. Mm-hmm. So I think that if you're developing a show-Even if you have a bad creator and a bad concept, if you're posting every single day, you're gonna see growth.
Yeah. Um, and- Run a mile every day, you get faster. Exactly. And then if you have a great creator and a great concept, then all right, now we actually really have something here. Um, I think that you need to go after
what's topical today on social, but it's also a very fine line because you don't wanna just be trend chasing and like trend hunting. Yeah, behind the eight ball. Mm-hmm. Exactly.
So I think that there's like a very nuanced line where you almost wanna like wink to things that people are seeing on their own social platforms. Like they're scrolling Twitter and like they see mention of this. Mm-hmm.
You wanna nod to that, you wanna wink to that, but you don't wanna, you don't wanna dive into that. Not everyone can be the Four Seasons baby meme, for example. [laughs] Yeah. Um, I'm trying to think what else.
I mean, you wanna create a concept that's, that's ownable. Yeah. And I think that there's almost two differing forms of thought.
One of them is like, okay, everyone knows the Daniel Maks of the world, where they ask the same exact question in every video. Yeah.
And the videos perform, and he has an audience, and people know who he is as soon as they see a video. In the first two seconds, you know which creator that is. Yeah. And I think if you can get there, you're winning.
Mm-hmm. But then there's a lot of others that think like, "All right, we need to always be testing and learning. We need to be trying new questions. We don't want every video to feel the same.
We don't wanna ask the same question every time." So for us, a lot of the time it depends on the brand, it depends on the creator.
Are they able to get unique answers, or are we truly just getting the same answer every single time? Mm-hmm. Um, and then it's also like other, other little things, like does this feel native yet elevated? Yeah.
So for example, something we're always trying to do is like we, uh, used to work with this company, this SpringHill Company. Yeah. We did this on-street fashion show. It's like LeBron James' agency, right? Yeah. Yeah.
Um, so it's little things like, all right, that's like a nice polished mic flag- Yeah... for a real brand, but we're asking people in Soho like what's one fashion item you can't live without? Yeah.
Um, so kind of like finding that fine line. Yeah. What, um, so for like, I know you work with some, you, you do some shows that are like bespoke for a brand on the brand's channel.
But what if like you are a independent creator and you're like trying to develop a show that like will be easy for brands to plug into?
I think What's Poppin with Davis is a good one, a good example, where like, uh, a lot of different brands have worked with that show at this point.
Uh, what, like if you are a creator just starting out, what would you build into the show to ensure that it's relatively easy to like create those brand relationships down the line?
I feel like an old man for saying this, and I hate myself, but I feel like brand safety is really- Mm... is really a big one. Um, I think that there is, again, a fine line.
Like I think What's Poppin with Davis, it's, it's raunchy in the best ways- Yeah... without, without losing a brand. Like you could send that to any person at any brand
and they're not gonna be like, they're not gonna recoil from it. Yeah. But like there's a couple jokes or a couple references that are a little bit risque. Yeah.
Um- Which is f- it feels youthful and cool, but without getting over the edge. Exactly. And I think that sometimes you see a format or you see maybe one video hits your For You page and it's very intriguing. Mm-hmm.
But then you click on the channel and there's some stuff that's like, uh, this is like a bit too much. Uh- Yeah... so I, I, the reason I hate myself for saying that is because- [laughs]...
it, it's, it's hard to tell an, like a new creator like, "Don't do this. Like don't create this sort of content." Mm-hmm.
'Cause at the end of the day, what's most important is they're creating something that feels right for them. So for example, like a, like a Side Talk, when they went crazy viral- Oh, yeah...
over like the New York Knicks in the playoffs last year, and like- Yeah... the fuck your life stuff. Yeah. Like that's not brand safe. Mm-hmm.
But because they were able to build a community within that, they were able to do real things, and I've seen them do partnerships with like Complex and like other media companies like that. Yeah.
Well, which is a brand that makes sense to work with them, even if they are saying like, "Bing bong, fuck your life." Like- Yeah, exactly. Yeah. Exactly. Um, trying to think what else. I mean-
Well, how about, uh, what guidelines would you give creators for working with brands?
Like, I mean, it, let's say, let's say y- you're an independent creator who's like not working with an agency like you, but who's like talking directly to a brand.
What, how would you advise them on like approaching that situation? I would come with an idea. I think that when a brand has, feels like you want to work with them because they're that brand- Mm...
versus you're just looking for a paycheck or like a quick post- Mm... that really resonates with them. They, they wanna hear why their brand will plug in well to your audience. Mm-hmm.
Um, and, and- It's like a journalist pitching a publication for a story. Exactly. Um, on the other side, I think that something I'll just say to all the creators out there is make sure you have your email in your bio.
Mm. There's so many times where we're scrolling through hashtags for like an up and coming, I don't know, ASMR creator- Yeah... or like,
like an adventure nature creator, and we come across their video through a hashtag, and it's like, oh, this person is like starting to like take off. Like all their videos have over 10,000 views. Yeah. They're growing.
They only started their account a couple months ago, but we've no way of getting in touch with you. Uh, so that's the other thing. It's like, well, are you gonna just DM them? Like yeah, that's gonna get lost.
And a lot of the time on TikTok you can't DM someone- Oh, yeah... unless they follow you.
Uh, so like there's been so many people that have fallen through our fingers just because we haven't been able to get a hold of them. Yeah. Um,
but something else that we've also recommended in the past is you wanna go after Nike, like create a video for them. Yeah. Like show them what you wanna do. Like start getting your audience talking about them.
Tell your audience to start tagging Nike in your comments. Yeah. You know what I mean? Just like little things like that, just it's very grassroots, it's very like guerrilla marketing.Yeah.
Um, I wonder, so you don't have to give me any, like, specific example, but I'm curious of like any campaigns or clients or creators you've worked with that it just hasn't worked out for whatever reason, and like,
l- l- I'm less interested in like the exact story about that, but I'm interested in like what you've learned are the warning signs or things to really avoid.
Like, where you're like, "I don't know if this is the project we wanna take on." Or like early on and you're like working on it and you're like, "Oh, we gotta like turn the ship around a little bit."
What have you learned to look for? So I'll give you, I'll give you two different answers. One is more, I guess like warning signs or like red flags on the brand side- Yeah...
and one is red flags on like the creator side. Perfect. Um, on the brand side, I think a lot of it is like unrealistic expectations. Yeah.
So for us, we usually try to break out a lead time of four to six weeks from contract execution into production. Mm-hmm. And sometimes we're able to move faster.
The lengthiest part of that is definitely finding the right talent, where sometimes we have to do multiple rounds. Yeah.
Sometimes we find the perfect person, but they're out of budget, or we find the perfect person, but they're actually getting hip surgery next month. [laughs] True story. Um- Okay... and a lot of the times
brands want the content yesterday. Yeah. Um, and sometimes if you go with that timeline just to please them in that moment,
you skip some steps and the initial performance or the initial product won't be as strong as if you had that lead time. Yeah. Um,
so again, sometimes we're definitely down and able to work within expedited timelines, but I think it's the unrealistic expectations where you're able to hear that at the, at the upfront and you're like- You gotta know your limits and advocate for 'em.
Exactly. And- Mm-hmm... it's on us to set the right expectations, but then there's, there's always gonna be some brands that just don't, they don't hear you.
They just hear, they just, they just tell you what they want- Yeah... and they don't hear the why not or like, why can't we have that now? Mm-hmm. And then they want
insane follow growth immediately, uh, while also making sure that like the brand is front and center, we're putting a logo over someone's face like in the first two seconds. And it's like, okay, you came for the wrong...
Like, I don't think you wanna do a creator campaign. You should maybe just be doing like traditional agency marketing here. [laughs] Exactly. Mm-hmm.
And I would say the other one is, is if someone expects sales right out of the gate. Ah, yeah. So we definitely look at ourselves as like top of funnel- Yeah...
where we will get people to your page, we will build you a following in a community,
and, and the goal is, yes, down the line, once we have that, we can start pushing something a little bit more product or brand forward with the idea of driving purchase.
But if you put the cart before the horse, like it's, it's not gonna work, and then all of a sudden you're turning that audience off before they even followed your channel. And no one, no one wants that. Yeah.
On the creator side, I think one of the reasons we like working with up-and-comers is we've definitely had instances where it's clear the creator or influencer really just wants the paycheck. Yeah.
And, and for us it's really important to invite them to sit on the same side of the table as us. We want you to brainstorm with us. We want you to ad lib in an improv, like whatever the topic- Yeah... or script is.
And sometimes you can just tell, like they're just gonna show up, read their line, and then they, they wanna go home.
You want somebody who understands that like this is also an opportunity to like rise their star and like it's an opportunity to build equity in their like account or their personal brand, whatever. Exactly.
And we've definitely run into instances where we bring someone on, halfway through the project they decide they want... or maybe they decide that they should have had a higher rate- Ugh, yeah... for example.
And, and it's like at that point it's, it's we're already in the project. Like there's- Yeah, the contract's been made, like. Yeah. And like that's not an excuse to take their foot off the gas pedal. Yeah.
Uh, but if they had flagged that at the beginning, then it's something we could've, we could've worked with.
We could've either figured out the budget or worked with someone that felt that that wa- budget was right for them. Ah. Obviously understanding like for a lot of people, like this is their form of income.
This is their job. Yeah.
Um, so it's a balancing act between like understanding the human side of it, understanding that we need to please our clients, the brands we work with, understanding that we need to get the best product while making sure both sides are happy.
I mean, it's, it's a song and dance every time, but I mean- Yeah... it's something that like we've, we've gotten used to of course.
What about like, so on the other side of things, like most successful campaigns or clients or shows or whatever, um, we've, we've gone into a little bit of like already like what makes them successful, but any of the most successful ones, uh, do you think there's like, I don't know, like the spark or like what was like the one thing that you couldn't have predicted that made it so successful?
Like, you know, beyond just like be consistent, show up, brand safe, whatever. Like have there been any of these moments where you're like, "We couldn't have predicted that, but that made this so successful?" Definitely.
Um, so I'll point to like probably one of my favorite campaigns ever. Mm-hmm. So for me, I'm a huge lover of like dance music, house music. Yeah. And a few years ago, this was at Fallen actually- Mm-hmm...
we were working with Spinnin' Records. It's like this, uh, Dutch label, um, very big on dance music. Yeah. And we were running their TikTok channel for them. And this was like pretty, pretty early in terms of like
running a brand social on TikTok. Yeah. And we were doing a ton of like reposted content from like shows and like backstage, stuff like that. Yeah, artist footage. Yeah.
And they, they wanted to basically start putting forward this new song from this up-and-coming DJ, Ownboss.
Uh, so we ma- we made some assets and one of them was kind of these, um, I don't know, maybe like Eastern European men like dancing around in like a circle- Yeah... or something.
And we threw the track over it, posted it to their channel, which had been growing very rapidly.
Um, luckily they were a brand that had that affinity and we just needed to almost like light the beacons to let their fans- Yeah... know like here we are. We're cool. [laughs] Uh, exactly.
And we, we posted that video and it got-I'll need to double-check, but something like 16 million views on this one video. Yeah. And the song went bananas. The amount of, like, people using the audio was crazy.
The song jumped up to, like, millions and millions of streams on Spotify from this, like, relatively unknown DJ. Yeah. And the song really just became this, like, uh, festival anthem that whole summer.
Tiesto did a remix. I mean, it was just so cool to see, because that was another example where, like, work bled into, like, my real life the same way- Yeah...
how I want, like, our work to bleed into, like, my friends' lives- Yeah... or people I know's lives. Um- But you never would've thought it would be so success- It was kinda just like, "Well, let's try this."
It's just, it's just one of those things where you just, you're always throwing things at the wall and this- Yeah... one just happened. It just, the TikTok algorithm liked it that day.
Lightning in a bottle, and I mean- Yeah... it's, it's the same thing as, like, what's poppin' with Davis, where
I'd love to, like, create the exact same thing today if I could, but it's like, it was the right place- Yeah... the right time, the right creator, and- This is almost like...
Sorry, this is like, sometimes I'll, like, some video will come on my feed, whether it's on Twitter or Instagram or whatever, and I'll be like, "Oh, this was funny."
And I'll, I'll go to the page, and it's just like their whole thing is, like, day 40, 437 of posting- Yeah... this video every day.
And it's like for some reason this one got 10 million views, and then, like, all those other ones have, like, 100 to, like, 1,000 views, and like- Yeah... it's just sometimes it happens. It's bizarre, honestly.
Like, I wish I, like, understood the algorithm. Like I've- Yeah... watched so many videos and read so many things on, like- Yeah... how to lean into it, the growth hacking, post at this time of day.
You know who I really like? Have you seen on Instagram this guy Viral Video Club? No, I haven't. He, he's really good. I'll send you that after. Yeah, send that. Okay. Um, sick. I think we'll end it here.
Is there anything you wanna plug before we end? Are you looking for new clients, looking for creators for some projects? Yeah, both. I mean, creators, if you guys are out there, hit us up, penn@bad-behavior.com.
We're always looking for more people to work with, whether it's branded content, uh, like a w- an original production or some sort of elevated UGC. We're always looking for creators to put shows around.
If it's, like, an original, you don't have to be based in New York. It can be based wherever. Yeah. Uh, brands, if you're looking at this, we'd love to create something cool. Let's create a social moment. Hit me up.
Sick. All right, let's go. Uh, Penn, thank you for coming on. This has been- Yes... the Creative Spotlight Podcast, and I will see you all next week.
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