Welcome back to The Creator Spotlight podcast. This is episode 11, and today's guest is Haya Kailani, who writes a newsletter called "The Deep Dive."
Each week, she creates five YouTube video essays for an audience of 13,000 subscribers and counting.
Most of that audience found her on TikTok, where she's built a following of 92,000 and routinely goes viral unpacking the same video essays she creates in her newsletter.
We spent an hour talking about organic growth, gatekeeping, and just letting people enjoy things, or not. As always, thank you for listening, and enjoy.
[upbeat music] But yeah, I guess to start, tell me who are you and what do you do? Yeah. So my name is Haya Kailani.
I, um, run and write and pretty much solely operate a newsletter called "The Deep Dive," whi-which is a weekly newsletter, um, with five curated video essay recommendations every week.
The topics really include things around culture, pop culture, internet, social media, entertainment, just, like, anything that kind of happens in our day-to-day life and the things that we experience in our day to day, and kind of like wanting to learn a little bit more about the kind of hidden meaning behind that.
Yeah, I mean, that's, that's basically kind of top line what "The Deep Dive" is.
"The Deep Dive" also has, um, a paid subscription model, which is pretty new, called the Rabbit Hole, which, um, you know, provides subscribers with access to "The Deep Dive's" searchable playlist, which is basically just, like, every single, um, video essay recommendation ever from "The Deep Dive," and also weekly subscriber-only posts of kind of just like, you know, rants and ramblings of other things happening in the space that I think needs to, you know, have something be said about it.
So that's kind of top line, you know, who I am and what "The Deep Dive" is. Yeah.
Uh, maybe I missed it, but I feel like you explained it more as like this media brand rather than directly like a newsletter or a TikTok page or something. Is that how you think of it?
Like, is it a newsletter first, or is it, is it more of just like a media concept? Yeah. So for me, you know, you know where I'm at now with "The Deep Dive," I definitely see it as the...
It's a newsletter-first platform, which uses TikTok as kind of a funnel, but we can talk about TikTok a little bit more once that comes up.
But yeah, I mean, I think, um, in terms of it becoming like a larger media kind of like platform, I think that's something that, you know, would be amazing and would be a great like kind of long-term goal for myself, but right now it really, you know, for me it really is like newsletter first.
But it is a really... It is kind of an interesting like unique approach to a newsletter in the sense that it's like, you know, it's a recommendation, like a recommendation newsletter.
It, you know, has like shares curated video essays, but also at the same time like is like an inside look into just kind of like my personal thoughts on, um, you know, the videos itself and the topics that they're covering, and I think that's something that "The Deep Dive" has really evolved into kind of this place where, you know, it's like I'm sharing my recommendations and I'm also kind of sharing a little bit of personal insight into why I chose the videos that I did and why I enjoy them and why I like and/or am interested in certain topics that I like and am interested in.
Yeah. No. I, I think the curation aspect of it is really interesting to me, and I've interviewed a few people who do- Yeah... you know, different things, but like also curation.
Like a couple weeks ago was Ariel Nissenblatt, who has the podcast recommendation newsletter, which is also like five podcasts- Mm-hmm... a week sourced from a guest. Um, s-some overlap to yours.
Or the person who's coming out this week is Ryan Broderick, his Garbage Day, and that's like, um, uh, more different than Ariel's was. But again, kind of curating stuff from the internet and putting it out there.
And I think, I think I'm in particular like really drawn to curation newsletters. Mm-hmm. Obviously other people are too, right?
And I think it's like a function of like the algorithm and n- you know, people get tired of algorithmic recommendations.
People want taste back, and like it's fun to consume another person's taste, which is like when you've like put an edge on it as you do. And like I think the appeal for a creator of- Mm-hmm...
making a curation product is like you're already consuming the stuff, you're interested in it, you wanna talk about it. Right.
I think I read too that like when you started, you really liked video essays, but you didn't have any friends in real life who like wanted to talk about them with you. Yeah.
So it was like a way for you to like make your consumption more active and, and again, put an edge on it. But, um, yeah, all that being said, what does it mean to be a curator for you? Yeah.
I mean, I think it's really interesting, and I think this is a question I ask myself all the time.
One of the first things that come to mind when it comes to like what it means to be a curator and having that be part, like such a big part of your content creation, and like newsletter creation of course, is like kind of constantly toeing that line between what's the content that I personally enjoy, enjoy and what's the content that my audience will enjoy.
And a lot of the time that overlap is really big, right? Like I think at this point I've been able to gain an audience that like really kind of gets it.
They, they know what I like and they know why I like it and they share that love with me. Um, but it's also, you know, kind of that thing of it's like, oh, well I find...
You know when I find a different types of content, maybe a video that isn't necessarily what I would usually gravitate towards, but in this specific instance was really interesting to me.
Um, it's like, it's kind of like toeing that line, 'cause like you wanna be able to kind of expand outside of that, but you also want to keep in mind that your audience, like they like what they like and they want to kind of grow with you, but they also wanna see the stuff that they want to see.
So I think that's kind of the big thing.
And I think kind of going back to what you were talking about, the algorithm, what's so interesting is that "The Deep Dive" really came out of, for me specifically, a frustration with the YouTube algorithm specifically.
Um, anybody who's on YouTube and spends a lot of time on YouTube has definitely complained about the algorithm at some point over the years. Um, and my personal frustrations with it were I was like I...
You know, there were so many creators that I loved and types of, um, videos that I really enjoyed watching, but it felt like I was kind ofJust seeing the same thing over and over.
And if I hadn't clicked on a video or I wasn't interested in watching it, it would keep being recommended to me.
And then on top of that, if I, you know, decided to one-off watch something completely random one day, my entire, like, explore page or, like, um, would just kind of be skewed entirely.
So I think, like, it was really kind of born out of that, that thing of, like,
kind of going back to, like, there were, there were only so many people in my life, and frankly, the vast majority of people in my life, like, didn't relate to this type of content that I was consuming.
So anytime I did hear somebody say, like, "Oh, there's this video that I watched and it's really interesting," that would be like... I mean, immediately I'd be beelining to, like, watch it.
Um, so that was, like, really where it came from. I was like, you know, if somebody was doing this for me, I would want that.
Like, if somebody was out there just telling me five videos that I should watch, like, whether or not they would be anything that I would ever be interested in watching it, and, like, that's what I would want.
I would want someone to just be like, "What do you think?" Like, [chuckles] "What do you like?" Yeah. I, um...
That, that, what you're talking about, about, like, oh, if somebody brings up a video, uh, this is something I was thinking about as I was writing this week's issue, and maybe you can relate.
I think we're about the same age. Yeah. Like, uh, I... Like, back in, like, 2006 or something, like, an aunt would, like, forward me an email that, like, was, like, some weird thing she saw online and, and, and such.
Yeah. And I've been thinking about, like, what you do or what, like, these other people I've interviewed do as, like, a, an evolved version of that, where that's, like, pre-algorithm, where it's like- Yeah...
look at this cool thing I found. Check it out. Yep.
Um, but what you're doing is that, but, like, with analysis and, like, media criticism involved, which, uh, not necessarily a question in there, more just my observation on- Yeah, yeah... what curation content is.
But I do wanna say, so video essays, that's what you cover, and, like, it, that touches so many things, and that's like your way- Yeah... into, like, so much cultur-cultural criticism across so many different things.
Um, I, I am not... I don't watch a lot of video essays. I read a lot of essays, listen to podcasts, watch movies, I consume so much content. Video essays just don't happen to be one of them.
So tell me, define for me what a video essay is. Yeah. I mean, honestly, this is a question that seems like it would be very straightforward.
It'd be like, these are all the things that make a video essay, but the lines are much more blurred than you would probably, anyone, honestly, would probably realize.
I think the best way that I've been able to describe it is, like, almost if you took, like, a tie between, like, a thesis, like a, um, like a college thesis and a documentary.
Like, if you imagine that there's, like, some sort of, like, in between, if there's the, a V- Venn diagram of the two of them, if there's, like, an in-between space, like, that's what a video essay would be.
I think there are a lot of video essays that really kind of veer more into the academic space. They're very heavily...
You know, all the video essays I watch for the most part are very heavily researched, but, like, researched in a way that is, like, very in line with, like, academic standards.
But then also there are a lot of video essays that are just someone who, you know, has a background or understanding in, you know, like, it could be anything, right?
It could just be, like, media or pop culture or philosophy or, you know, whatever it might be, um, kind of like sharing their thoughts on a situation and kind of just like spitballing.
I think a lot of times creators, um, they're, they're so natural on camera that we think they're kind of just, like, you know, saying whatever.
But, you know, a lot of the time these, uh, videos are heavily scripted and they know what they're gonna say. But there's a wide range of what a video essay is, but I feel like that's, like, my best...
Like, the best way to kind of encapsulate all of it, um, because it is such a... It's a pretty growing, like, large and growing sector, like, sub-sector within YouTube. Yeah.
And w- I mean, in terms of length, they're anywhere as from, like, they could be quite short, probably even less than 10 minutes, you could qualify something as a video essay, to, like, multiple hours, right?
Totally, yeah. I've seen up to, like, 10 hours, longer than 10 hours. I... [chuckles] It was an April Fool's bit, but I saw one that was 38 hours. [chuckles] Wow. What about, like, the people creating them?
Like, are most video essayists, like, perennial, where it's like, you know, every week there's a new one, or every month, or whatever? Or is it, like, more... I'm, I'm sure it's a mix, but, like- Yeah...
what, I guess, is, like, the creator meta of, like, who are these people? How are they engaging? Like, how are, like... What are their followings like?
What does it mean to be a video creator in the current state, a video essay creator, a video essayist in the current state of that? Yeah, totally.
And well, yeah, and I think, you know, going to your first question about, like, the frequency of these posts, I mean, like you said, it's completely... There's a huge range.
I mean, there are, um, there are creators who are able to churn out, you know, content every few weeks or once a month.
And then there are creators who, like, really kind of their whole thing is they put their head down for, like, a year working on one video, and they come out with videos once a year.
Uh, similar thing, like, you'll have creators that come out with videos once every six months. Um, so you really do see such a wide range of that.
And in terms of their audience, I mean, of course, I can't speak from the position of a video essayist. I think that's, like, like, not 100% insight that I have.
But from what I've seen, their audiences are, like, highly engaged, highly looking forward to their next, um, post.
You know, they, they really do have, um, communities, like, really dedicated communities that, you know, really love the creators that they love, but from what I've seen, are also really looking for, you know, kind of like a, if you like this, then you'll like this kind of situation.
It's like they... They'll be tried...
You know, they'll kind of be loyal to their tried and true creators, but they also wanna hear more, you know, if it's like, "Oh, this is a really interesting take on whatever topic this is, and I wanna hear what somebody else has to say about that."
Um, so yeah. I mean, I think that's kind of, like, my observation of video essay audiences, is that it's, it's pretty,
like, they're very loyal, very, like, excited about their creators, and honestly, from what I've seen, like, generally a very positive community. There's...
I mean, of course, there's criticism, you know, as there should be in a lot of spaces, but it always seems to be very constructive. Um, it's not like a lot of internet spaces that can get extremely toxic.
[chuckles] Yeah. I mean, I think that makes sense, too, given that it's such a, like-High effort thing to consume. Like, it's not- Yeah...
just like a short form video where you can just watch it and drop a mean comment or whatever. Um- Totally... I'm curious about your media diet.
Like, t- obviously you're finding five of these every week, uh, and putting them- Mm-hmm... out there. I'm sure you're watching much more. How many hours of YouTube do you think you watch a week? Man. Oh, boy.
I don't even know. I mean, like, in the couple of days leading up to when the newsletter goes out, at least a combined 24 hours just, like, in those days leading up. Um, and I think...
And also, even after the newsletter goes out and I kind of like, you know, have some downtime, I'm still watching YouTube.
Maybe it's not necessarily, like, you know, looking for those curated, like, recommendations that I'll put in the next newsletter, but just kind of seeing what's out there, seeing what...
YouTube is like, in terms of my media diet, like, it is my main form, like, my main choice of entertainment. It always has been.
Um, you know, I like TV, but it's never been, you know, the main method- You say always has been, like, s- always since you were, like, a kid kind of? Yeah. I mean, so I... Okay. So YouTube kind of, like, really...
I mean, YouTube started when I was... God, was it like 2005? So I was like 10, 11 years old. Mm-hmm. Um, so, like, I was kind of engaging it in the way that, like, a lot of people were.
Kinda like what you were saying, right? It was like, somebody would be like, "Oh, look at this video," [chuckles] and you'd kinda watch it.
Um, I'd say that I got really interested in YouTube, and specifically just, like, the niche corners of YouTube, in high school, so around 2008 to 2012.
Um, and then in college is when I started being really fascinated with, um, kind of just, like, the vlogger scene that was coming up.
Not in a way that I was, like, enjoying as somebody that was part of the target audience. It was more so, like, this is an interesting thing that's happening. Like, um, you know, it was, it was...
I was almost watching it as, like, an observer at that point. And then when I discovered the video essay category, I was like, "Yes, this is what I've been looking for."
'Cause I've always been somebody that was, like, gravitated towards, like, educational content, things like documentaries and, you know, um... And I'm also not a huge reader.
My attention span doesn't really allow for it. [chuckles] So, videos are obviously, like, a really great way for me to, like, learn all that new information without having to, like,
really force myself to focus and, like, read a book, even though I probably should. [chuckles] Mm-hmm. No, it's, like, it's all information. Um, have you ever made a video essay? Oh, God, no. Oh, my gosh.
People ask me this, and I, I just, like, the amount of effort and research and just, like, pre- prior knowledge and time, like, it's...
I, I truly have the utmost respect for the people who make these videos and, like, the editing and the scripting. It's something that, like...
It's like I, I so look up to people that, like, are able to put that time in and do that, and I think at least at this point, like, that's something that I don't know that...
I see myself much more as, like, a consumer- Mm-hmm... of these videos as somebody... or as opposed to somebody who would make them. But, I mean, all the respect. It's a lot of work [chuckles] and I actually- Yeah...
don't know how some of them do it as much as they do. It's insane. I mean, just skimming through a bunch of the ones in your archive, it's like, yeah, I mean, it's like 45-minute things, so well-researched.
Like, definitely took, like, at least 40 hours [chuckles] of, like- Yeah... at, like, at minimum for so many of these to make. Um, okay, but you don't make video essays, but you do make TikToks. And on your- Yeah...
Deep Dive Tik- TikTok account, your first one was uploaded the same day you sent your first issue of the newsletter. Um, had you been, like, TikToking before that on a, like, a private personal account or something?
Or was that, like, "All right. I guess I'm gonna try TikToking for the very first time"? Yeah. I mean, I think, like, I had a personal account. I think I've s- I've long since lost it.
I haven't logged into it in a really long time now. But I had a personal TikTok account before starting the Deep Dive one, and I, you know, I'd post every so often.
But I always really enjoyed the format of TikTok and being able to just kind of, like, share your thoughts and, you know, share what you've learned.
If there's something I wanna say, this is, like, the way that kind of seems the most natural for me as somebody who just kind of, like, I just kind of like to, you know, learn things and talk about them and kind of make connections and, not necessarily in a way that's so structured or so formal and, like, you know, frankly requires, like, a lot of knowledge of, like, video editing, kind of like what we were saying about video essays.
But kind of in a way that is a lot more casual and just kind of like a, "Here are my thoughts. What are yours?"
Um, so that was something that I always was really interested in, and so when I kind of like, you know, came up with the concept of The Deep Dive, it seemed like a natural way to kind of get people on board.
And I knew, and I'd already seen, like, some posts about these YouTube videos and kind of saying like, "Oh, video essays I watch to help me go to sleep," and it's, like, kind of those carousel ones. So I was like, "Okay.
Well, like, what if there was somebody who was, like, talking about these?" Because even just seeing the screenshot, I'm like, "I don't, I don't know what this video is about. I don't know who's making it.
I don't know what the point they're making." Um, so it was kind of like adding a little bit more of, like, a human face to those kinds of, like, um...
That was my initial idea, like, those, like, carousels of, like, roundups of video essays, um, that people like watching. So that was, like, where the idea came from. Yeah. No, that makes sense. It's...
Like, looking at your TikToks too, I think it only took, like, eight TikToks or so, five weeks for you to get- Yeah... your first million view TikTok. And I don't know if it was right away or if it happened later. Yeah.
Um, but I thought that's really impressive. And you have now 92,000 followers, 2.6 million likes, and, like, a bunch of m- million plus view videos, which is really impressive.
I've, I've tried to do the TikTok thing before at an old job, and I hated it. I sucked at it. [chuckles] But also what's, like, amazing to me is, like, uh, so many of your videos are, like, could not be simpler.
It's just, like, you CapCut green screened and, like, shrunk down and, like, talking over a... for three minutes over a screenshot of one of these videos.
And one of the, the fir- like, your most recent w- like, really big view one, I think it was 1.7 million views, it was just that. Yeah. [chuckles] Like, no changes in the shot. So that's amazing. I, I... Has, like...
Uh, did, have, did you have, like, a TikTok str- I mean, you just kind of laid it out a bit, but was there, like, any particular strategy where you're like, "I'm gonna try this or that," or you were just like, "I'm just gonna, like-Do these kind of like, like kind of do...
It's what you're doing in the newsletter. You're just like ta- Right... you're just saying it on video.
Where you're just like, "I'm just gonna do that and see what happens", and then it, like, very quickly started working. 'Cause I think now it's been, like, over a year since you've got...
I mean, almost every video you put out gets at least 10,000 views, which is crazy. Yeah. Yeah. Thank you. Yeah, I mean, I think that's... Yeah, I mean, I think you kind of explained it exactly how it was.
I mean, of course I've tried to kind of, like, tried out different formats as, um, you know, times go- time has gone on.
I've tried, you know, um, you know, kind of being, like, mixing it up a little bit, so doing, like, a creator spotlight, which I'll still do every so often. But yeah, I mean, it was kind of just that.
I mean, I had this idea of, like, okay, what would I wanna see?
Like, if I wanted new things to watch, and I wanted a reason to watch them, and I wanted to be, like, compelled enough to, like, go to my TV and, like, you know, add it to my queue or whatever, what would I need?
So that was kind of like the framing that I saw it, and especially in the beginning. It was very much like what would help me in this specific situation. Um, and that was kind of like what came to mind.
It was this thing of like, okay, you know, this video. I also... It was also really important to me to make sure that, like, I was, you know, in a sense, like, citing the source.
Like, I wanted to make sure that it was, like, very clear that, like, the things I was saying, like, of course, I had my additional commentary in there and, like, my thoughts thrown in.
But, like, the goal was like this is what I learned from this specific video that's behind me. Um, so that was also something, like, it was...
I als- I really was ve- like, I really am, continue to be very interested in, like, making sure that I'm like, you know, propping up these creators and really kind of being like, "They said this thing and I really like it, and here are my other thoughts."
Going back to the beginning of the newsletter, so you started it- Yeah... um, February 8th, 2023, I think was the first, the first issue. Mm-hmm. Why did you...
Like, I know you wanted to, like, make a thing to talk about- Yeah... video essays, but, like, why exactly did you choose to start a newsletter about video essays, besides just, like, being interested in video essays?
Yeah. Yeah. So I think, like, that was... So early last year was, like, a very pivotal time in my career, as you could say.
I was working in PR for about, like, seven years up to that point, and the company I was working with had, like, mass round of layoffs, and my position was one of the ones that was cut.
And it was, you know, pretty much immediately kind of saw it as an opportunity of like, okay, this is... this could be a path forward for the next thing. I didn't know what that thing was.
It could've, you know, could've been another job.
Um, you know, it didn't really cross my mind to, like, start a newsletter of my own immediately, but, you know, kind of over time and, like, during that downtime that I had, you know, like, like, in between jobs, as you could say, I kind of came across...
Like, I wr- like, I had known that, like, newsletters and Substack were, like, a big- Mm-hmm... um, like, community and, like, a big, you know, sector, but I really didn't understand the extent of it.
And once I got a greater understanding of it, I was like, "Oh, like, I could do this." It was, it was this real feeling of like, this could be me, like, I could write the newsletter.
Um, you know, my background in PR really kind of prepared me for the type of writing that newsletters, um, or that, like, you know, works really well in newsletters.
Like, kind of that, like, succinct, quippy, um, but also, like, really meant to, like, grab people's attention.
I mean, the entire pitching process for anyone who's familiar with, um, PR, is literally, uh, like, a bulk email, like, a newsletter in some way.
Um, in, like, in some capacities you can draw, draw some comparisons there. But...
And I've always enjoyed writing, and I always liked, um, I always, like, really enjoyed this idea of, like, being able to find my own writing voice. Um, I think that's something that, that's still being worked out.
So that was kind of, like, my first thought, was like, okay, I definitely wanna do a newsletter. I don't know what about, but, like, this is... I, I'm interested in this. Like, whatever this could be.
And then, you know, as I kind of thought about it, the idea for, like, you know, video essay curation really came to me. It felt specific, and it felt like it could be too specific.
[laughs] Like, it felt like it could be a little bit too out there, but, you know, once I kind of, like, really started to do it and really kind of, um...
Like, I pretty much immediately was like, "Okay, yes, this is what I'm gonna do." I kinda went full steam ahead. Um, like, set up a, uh, domain and all of that, like, over the course of a day, like, was really...
Like, probably the idea came to me, like, mid-January, and by early April I was sending out the first issue. Um, and that was just, like...
Yeah, it was really, like, this thing of, like, an idea that kind of hit me and I was like, this could work, but it also could not work, and I have the time, and like, I'm gonna do this for as long as it makes sense.
[laughs] Yeah. No, which, which I love. I mean, that's what it's all about. It's just about, like, having the idea and then doing it. I'm curious, what is your...
Who is your audience and what's your relationship with them? Yeah.
So my audience for the most part in terms of, like, really, like, metrics, like, the vast majority is, like, 18 to 34, like, that kind of range, and I think more, more so, like, leans more towards, like, the 25 to 34 range.
So, like, kind of like me. [laughs] Other people who've grown up with YouTube. Yeah. Yeah, exactly.
People who have grown up with YouTube and who have been in the space for long enough to understand, like, the different sectors of it and the different trends that kinda come up within it and are interested in this one.
Um, so yeah, and I think my audience, I think there's, uh, there's a lot that I have in common with my audience.
They just like to learn about things, and I think kinda going back to, um, the blurb that I had in this week's newsletter where it was like, "If you think I don't let you enjoy things, like, wait till you watch this video."
Um, I think the, "Can you just let me enjoy things?" Like, if there's anyone who's not my audience, it's that. [laughs] Because...
And I, and I've talked about this a lot, like, in the newsletter, and not in a way that's any sort of, like... Uh, like, not in a way that's, like, snarky at all.
Like, I think people should be allowed to enjoy things if they want to, I mean, by all means.
But I think for me, my audience is definitely those people that are like, you know, learning things and learning why we do the things that we do is part of what makes it fun and interesting to participate it, to participate in it.
And sometimes you learn things that you're like, "Okay, maybe this isn't great. Maybe I shouldn't, you know, be doing this or, you know, whatever." And I think that's fine, and you should be learning about those too.
But I think it's really...
I think, like, the main thing are-- is, like, people who, you know, don't just wanna kind of, like, move throughTheir lives and the culture and the internet and social media and their interactions with people without kind of taking a second guess as to like why they're doing the things they're doing, why they're going to the places they're going, why they're seeing the things they're seeing, why they're wearing the things they're wearing.
Like, um, you know, and I think that was something kinda going back to like the idea of finding your people like through the internet and through YouTube, um, that was always something that like always felt like, you know, you know that very relatable experience of like thinking that you're like one of one in a situation, and then you kinda go on the internet and you're like, "Oh, this is the least original [laughs] thing ever."
Like, turns out there's a lot of people who, you know, like doing the same thing. Yeah.
Um, so when I was looking at your TikTok, the most interesting thing to me, I like I went down and I like Control + F, looked for all the ones where you were replying, where you were replying to a comment, and the ga- going back to your on- your audience and your relationship with them.
One, I think that's like a really effective way of communicating with your audience. You're like really lucky to have like this audience on TikTok and on the newsletter. Mm-hmm.
Um, but my favorite one, my favorite of these videos was one where somebody asked you, like, "Does it get exhausting constantly examining and dissecting every aspect of life?
Can we not do things without ascribing meaning to them?" And I really enjoyed your video that re-responding to them, and it's basically the same thing you just said. Yeah.
And like, I mean, for context, like I went to a liberal arts school and like studied media studies, so like I also [laughs] very much- You get it. [laughs] That's... Yeah, exactly.
Um, but I think that like that is so important, and like that's... Again, that's what curation is about. Mm-hmm. It's like here's why this is good, and like here's what you learn from doing it.
Like, my impression, let me know if this is a fair assessment o-of, of your project, is like the most simplified thesis is that like no cultural product exists in a vacuum, and it's like it's good to understand why things are the way they are.
And like that's basically what you try to do with Deep Dive. Exactly. That's exactly it.
I think, um, you know, I think it's like people can ascribe whatever meaning or however little meaning they want to whatever it is that they want, but I think for me it's like, yeah, it's exactly that.
Like, nothing happens in a vacuum and, you know, sometimes it's for like things that are really silly, and sometimes it's like, you know, the meaning, the real meaning behind something or the context that something came in is like very funny, and sometimes it's like really serious and something it's really big.
Um, but either way, it's, you know, for the people who wanna know what it is and kinda wanna hear a little bit more about that. That's definitely what the Deep Dive is for. Yeah.
Um, so one more indulgent term I came up with while, [laughs] while I was doing my background research on you. Uh, gatekeeping, obviously a word that comes up a lot- Yeah... and no longer really means anything.
Um, but I think, hear me out, I think like, uh- Okay... what a curator is, what you're doing, you're gate creating. You're a gate creator. Ah. Uh, which is really annoying, but I think what I [laughs] what...
The term is annoying. I think what I mean by that though is like you are, you're creating a...
It's like you're creating a gate into a certain type of meaning, and you're like assembling these things, and you're like, you're creating a portal into like understanding the world.
And like other people don't have to be the types of people to like really go through- Yeah... and like think about every YouTube video they watch. But like you offer that as a service.
You offer like understanding the world better, um, as a service. So I don't know. Do you, like that gate cr- annoying as the term is, gate creator, like do you agree with that? Yeah, definitely.
I mean, that makes a lot of sense. It's this thing of like, you know, especially with the idea of like even creating that gate for people to go to, right? Mm-hmm.
Like the people who like wouldn't have known it was there otherwise, but like want to see what's there or I guess what's behind it, you know, to kind of play into, um, the analogy a little bit more.
But yeah, I mean, I think that's exactly it, and I think, uh...
Yeah, and it, it is so interesting being a curator right now because like it's so, it- it's so many things, but it's also like it's the kind of thing that only can really come up in this like media environment that we're in right now where there's just so much.
Like, it's like r- it's like so much to the point where not even algorithms can really help us anymore.
It's like we've gone, we've almost ma- made a full circle back to a place where we need someone to be like, "Okay, what about these? Do you like these?" [laughs] Which is good. You may not. You also might. [laughs] Yeah.
No, I mean, there's so much muck. Like somebody's gotta- Yeah... it's, you wa- I, I... So many of the people I talk to, it's like you're wading through the muck as a service. Yeah.
Um, like well, the one, the, the email that's going out this Friday, the feature is, yeah, Ryan Broderick, who does Garbage Day. Mm-hmm.
And my like, I don't know if this is what is gonna be the final subject line, but my like pithy subject line is like, "He's dumpster diving the internet so we don't have to." Yeah. I like that.
Um, and that's kinda what you're doing too. Uh, but anyways, I wanna get into the newsletter, the stats- Yep... the numbers. Um, so the typical numbers, how many subscribers do you have?
What's the open rate, and what's the click rate? Yeah. So subscribers, I have my notes up here. So my subscribers is at 13,400, I think almost 13,500.
Um, open rate is 58%, and click rate is like hovers around 8% most weeks. Um, but those are kind of like raw numbers for that. Those are good numbers.
Um, I mean, it makes sense the click rate, 'cause I think the industry click rate average is like one point something or two. So I mean, people come- Yeah...
to you to, to find a video to watch, which like actually that's another thing.
Uh, y- what you do is like almost like whenever it's like, you know, 8:00 PM on a Friday and I'm staying in, and like will look up like, "Oh, what to stream on Netflix right now," and there's like an article from Vulture about like, "Here's the 10 things you should be streaming tonight."
Right. [laughs] You do that, but just for YouTube. Um, but anyways, we've, we've delved into that plenty. Uh, I f- I read an interview, it was behind a paywall, so I only read part of it. Yeah.
But I read an interview with Kate from Embedded, uh- Mm-hmm... on you that was, uh, like a year ago, and only like four months after you'd started, and you already had- Yeah. It-... 6.5 thousand subscribers. So- Yeah...
how did you get so many subscribers so quickly? That's like quite, quite a lot for the first few months. Yeah.
Um, a- yeah, I mean, f- uh, TikTok really acted as, or has been acting this entire time as like my main funnel for gaining subscribers.
So in every TikTok video I make, I'll, um, include like a mention of the newsletter, you know-Um, and it's really interesting because even that, like the way that I've introduced the newsletter in the TikToks themselves has evolved over time.
I think in the beginning, my PR brain wouldn't let me not present the newsletter in like a very like press release format. It's like- Mm-hmm...
this is what it is, and this is what I do, and this is how much it is, which is free. And [chuckles] like these are all the things.
[laughs] Um, but I've learned that like over time, the more the mention is in passing, the lo- Mm... like it can be a lot more effective given... I mean, of course it depends on the context that, you know, it's in.
Um, but yeah, that's kind of u- that's kind of been the main funnel. Obviously, like link in bio, um, and just like mentioning the newsletter in most, the vast majority of the TikToks that I make.
That's kind of been the main, um, kind of growth avenue for that. Yeah. That's, that's really interesting. And, uh- Mm-hmm...
it's always like I, I hear people, like people who are like internet writing gurus talk about how like you have to unlearn everything you learned in school about writing and intros, conclusions, et cetera, and it's like you're kinda talking about that like with like what you learned in PR.
So- Yeah... I, I don't know. I'd, I'd like to talk more about that. Like is there anything else that like you learned from PR that you've had to... that like w- works in like the- Right...
marketing world, but that y- that you've had to unlearn for this? Yeah. I mean, I think it's like...
I think there's a lot of things, but they all kind of root back to the same thing of like giving all the information up front. I mean, something that you learn...
It's funny because like when you start working in PR, you have to unlearn all of the ways that you like write in school. You have to write really quickly, really like succinctly. It has to be very short.
You can't bury the le- like burying the lead is like, you know, crime number one in PR. Like you have to be so upfront about what's going on.
If you've ever seen a press release, just like you read it and you're like, "All right. That's all the informa- that's at the very least all the information that this brand has about like whatever it is that's going on."
Um, and I think that's something that is like it's a real instinct that's like hammered into you from the beginning. So when I kind of like ventured into newsletters, I really learned that...
or I really had to like be forced to learn that less is more sometimes. Um, sometimes it's enough to just say like, you know, "I'll be talking about this."
And that's something that I'm, you know, kind of working with right now, like with the Rabbit Hole, kind of like, you know, um, like mentioning it, like making mention to it in the newsletter itself.
I obviously don't wanna like detract from like the main point of the newsletter itself, but also still want to say like, "Hey, this is what's coming up on the Rabbit Hole."
Um, and that's also been like a lot of, you know, trial and error of like the more information you give sometimes, the more it kind of like works against you.
'Cause sometimes people just don't wanna wade through a bunch of stuff when it's not really like the exact point why, like of like why they're there to begin with. Um, but yeah.
I mean, I think it is so interesting the ways that working in PR has helped me so much in the newsletter space, and the ways that it's like I didn't even realize I had to unlearn until so far into it, where I was like, "Oh, like..."
'Cause I think the, the way I kinda came to that conclusion was that there was one video that I kinda just like forgot to mention the newsletter, so I added like a little like, "Oh, by the way, like link in bio."
And that just, for whatever reason, that just really worked. And I was like, "Oh, okay. [chuckles] Like this is, this is what people want when they're watching these TikToks.
Like this is how they wanna be directed to something that is like outside of the platform they're currently on." Yeah. That's, that's fascinating.
Um, so 6.5 thousand in like the first four months, and now about the same amount in a full year. And is that... Is there anything other than TikTok, or is it like just TikTok? It's mostly just TikTok.
I mean, of course, Beehiiv have... or I have the referral program set up through Beehiiv. Mm-hmm. So, um, I've had like a few hundred, I think, at this point come through that.
Um, and but yeah, I think it's like in looking at my analytics and honestly just kind of what's making sense, like TikTok has been like definitely the main driver of growth from there. That's amazing.
Um, I do wanna talk about the, the Rabbit Hole. So you- Oh... this is your premium offering, and you- Yeah... started it in September. Um, and I think one thing that's really interesting about it is like
you, you, uh, you kind of pitch it, you mention it as like a separate newsletter almost. Like it's obviously the premium... Like- Yeah...
other people would say like the premium version of The Deep Dive, but it's like you say like- Right... my... It's almost like your sister newsletter. I don't know exactly how you term it, but it's like it's separate.
Yeah. So yeah, tell me why you started it, what it is, what, yeah, why you started it and what it is. Yeah. So I essent- I kinda just started it because, um, you know, for a long time I really was...
Like once I kinda got to a place where I was like, okay, The Deep Dive is something that is like not sustaining itself, obviously, because I'm, [chuckles] you know, putting in that work every week.
But once I kind of got into a groove of like how things were working and, um, you know, the cadence and everything, I kind of reached a point where I was like, okay, well, kind of going back to that whole thing of like I have more to say.
Like do I know what it is always? No. But like I... There is...
I do think there's some opportunity here to kind of expand into thoughts that are a little bit like more personal and that have like more of my like, you know, um, just like commentary and opinions like injected into them.
And, you know, that was something that I was obviously like really interested in doing on TikTok, and I think for me I was like, okay, this is a good opportunity to kind of expand that into like a premium option too.
And in terms of like naming it the Rabbit Hole, honestly, the reason I did that was just like I just thought it would be fun to have like a name.
Um, I think sometimes it's like a nice identifier for the people who are at that level to kind of say like, "Oh, I'm part of the Rabbit Hole," or, "Oh, I'm a subscriber to the Rabbit Hole," even if it's like part of the same newsletter.
But really kind of where the Rabbit Hole started, it's honestly evolved a lot. It's still pretty new, and, um, it's just like a constant work in progress, lots of trial and error.
It started off as like, oh, maybe I'll do my own research on like topics that I'm interested in, and I think that was something that like I'm definitely interested in doing and definitely like doing, but it wasn't sustainable as far as like a weekly thing, and I wanted to make sure that like anything I was putting out like was being well-researched and wasn't just like, you know.
Like I wanted to make sure that I was able to put the time and effort into it that I needed.
And now it's kind of like somewhere along the way I introduced a searchable playlist, um, which I explained basically searchable, sortable, filteral- filterable playlist with all of my recommendations.
And that really came from a place of people being likeI love 40-minute video essays, people would say.
They'd be like, "I watch these over my lunch break at work, and 40 minutes is the perfect amount of time for me to go grab my food, walk to wherever, watch this video, and go back."
Um, same thing with people who, like, watch while they're working out or doing laundry. Like, that was, like, a big feedback that I was getting, was like, "I like these 40-minute video essays."
Like, I just wanna see the video essays that are 40 minutes long. Um, so that was introduced along the way, and now it's really kind of operating as, like, an additional thought.
So it's like every week it'll kind of be, like, a write-up on a specific just, like, happening or something I've noticed, um, or just, like, you know, maybe it's inspired by videos I saw that week or maybe it's just something that's, like, completely outside of all of that.
But that's kind of, like, where the Rabbit Hole is operating right now. Yeah.
I think the Patreon comparison is really apt because it does feel like w- uh, again, your, your concept with The Deep Dive is so dialed in and it's so consistently like the five videos, couple hundred words on each, and that's it.
Whereas, like, I read a few of the Rabbit Holes, and they're like, they're like personal essay media criticism combos, and, like, sometimes they're 800 words. Mm-hmm. One was 3,500 words, I think, and it's like...
Or that was an interview. That was an interview, so that- Yeah. Yeah... makes sense that that one was longer. But, um, yeah, so the length varies and, like, what there are varies, which I, which I like.
Are you willing to share, like, how many premium subscribers you have? It's okay if not. Yeah. I mean, I don't have the specific number. I didn't write it down.
Um, but it's definitely still, like, less than that 1%, um- Yeah... threshold, but I don't have [inaudible] Uh, well, so besides that, so is that... I know you have some ads, so is... Are these- Mm...
the two ways you're monetizing right now, premium subscriptions- Yes... and then some ads? And then I think also the ads, uh, are... It doesn't look like it's, like, Beeha- Beehiiv ad network ads.
It looks like you're like... One of them I think was, like, for, like, a video festival or something like that. Yeah. So yeah, tell me about your advertising process as well. Yeah.
So, um, it's a, it's like three main, um, modes of... But yeah, what you were saying is spot on, so it's the- The monetization modes. Yeah... the ads, the Rabbit Hole, and the TikTok creator program. They pay out- Oh...
creators for, um, um, like, videos that they make and however many. That obviously fluctuates all over the place, but those are kind of, like, my three main things now.
And The Deep Dive has only recently gotten to a place where we're, like, cracking that, like, monetization of, like, you know, making any sort of, like, monetization from it before.
For a long time it was kind of just like, "Okay." [laughs] Um, but yeah. So I think that's the...
But yeah, going back to the, what you were saying about ads, a lot of the time it is Beehiiv ads and, you know, definitely...
Like, one of the reasons I joined Beehiiv is because of that, like, ad network, and it was like, I really... You know, it was a really...
I just thought it was such a great idea to be able to act as kind of like this middle man between brands and newsletters, um, because again, that was one of my jobs, working in PR, and I know how difficult it is to find brands at that exact moment in time where they're looking for advertising opportunities.
So that was like, that was, um, one of those things. But yeah, I think the one that you're talking about is, um, Strong Towns, which is a YouTube channel, but they're also, like,
some sort of organization that really prioritizes, um, like, better city planning, like creating better cities and that aren't so, like, suburban sprawly and, like, you need a car to get everywhere and you don't have access to public transportation.
Like, that's kind of their main goal. And they're having a conference, um, you know, sometime this month, and, uh, they reached out to me and they were like, "You know, we'd love to invite you.
Like, we'll give you a code. Um, you know, and we'd really love to see you there and any subscribers that you have, um, there."
So every so often I'll get, like, ad opportunities of, like, things like that, or, like, affiliate opportunities like that. Um, but have definitely made great use out of the Beehiiv ads network as well.
So it's kind of just, like, balancing those two. Another Beehiiv feature you use [laughs] is the referral system- Mm-hmm... um, which referrals are hard.
So I recently, last week or so, launched one, two weeks ago I think, launched one in Creator Spotlight, and it's like this guide of, like, 30 growth tips, et cetera. Um, and it's hard to get people to click on that.
Yeah. So hard. And I... We did it just one, because it's like nobody is gonna do too many. You know, more- m- many, many more people are gonna do one than even two or three, uh, et cetera.
So I think you have two for you gets podcast recs- Mm-hmm... five gets stickers, 10 gets a tote. Um- Exactly... how's that going? And has anybody hit the tote level yet? Yes.
People have hit the tote level, but yeah- Nice... like, very few. Like, very small handful of people have hit the tote level. Um, but yeah, I think that's something.
The referral one, it's so interesting, 'cause it's like, it's, um, like, 100% like you said, it is so difficult to get people...
I mean, honestly, it's difficult to get people to do anything outside of the thing that they're doing in the moment.
Like, any- anything that you can do that'll make them migrate elsewhere at all and do anything at all is, like, a huge win. Um, but yeah, you're 100% right.
The vast majority of people that are referring people are referring one person. Um, but honestly, like, I think I... That doesn't bother me.
I think, like, what I like about that is this idea of, like, "Oh, I have this one friend who I think [laughs] would really like this." Because I'm speaking to- It goes back to, like, forwarding emails in 2006, right?
Exactly. 'Cause yours is such a good one to do that with. It's like, it- it's a mu- it's a very easy proposition to forward The Deep Dive, 'cause anybody can find something interesting there, right? Exactly. Exactly.
And so that's kind of, like, the thing with me. It's like I, you know, of course it's like, do I wish there were more people that hit the five or the 10 level? Totally.
Um, but I also, like, I do, I do try to, like, remind myself that it's like e- even the people that were like send it to their one friend who they thought would like it and now it's something they bond over, like, that's something that, like...
That, that was, like, really what I wanted to do and, like, my original, like, intention with The Deep Dive to begin with. But yeah, it's, it's honestly, it's honestly difficult.
And, like, getting to the five and 10 tiers is, like, not many people have done it, um, which props to them for doing it [laughs] I guess. Yeah. No, that's impressive. Okay. You've been doing this for 15 months. Mm-hmm.
Really you've only just begun. Where are you with this 15 months from now?Gosh, I don't know. That's a question I ask myself all the time.
Um, you know, it's so funny because I do try to stay hyper-aware of the fact that like, like anything, this could very well be an internet trend. Um, and we've seen lots of them.
I mean, at this point, like, like especially people that are like around our age, I think we've seen so many phases of the internet at this point.
So it's like, it's this thing of like this feeling of like I should be prepared even...
Like, I'm really enjoying what I'm doing now, and I wanna continue to do, you know, what I'm doing for as long as I enjoy it, but also be aware of like ways that I'm gonna need to pivot in order to kind of be able to fit with like the internet, the changing internet trends of the time.
It's kinda like being realistic in that sense. So I hope like...
I guess what I hope for 15 months from now is that like if there are any sort of pivots that, you know, made sense for the ecosystem that will have been at that point, um, that, you know, I'm finding my place in that or at least like know where, um, I would want to explore that a little bit.
I think, um, I definitely see myself like continuing to just like, like watch YouTube, enjoy YouTube, recommend YouTube to people, even if YouTube does go through kind of like these phases of existence, which again, I think that's really interesting too.
Like, I really like observing the way that, you know, things change over time and how YouTube changes over time because it's changed so much.
It's like really this thing of like, you know, sticking with what works well, but also being able to identify like when things are moving and like what is interesting for me when, you know, that progression does happen.
Yeah. I, I didn't really think about this until just now too, but like of course the TikTok ban and like I don't think- Yeah... you're really on Reels yet, and like- Yeah...
you're gonna have to get on Reels and, and such. Um, but I think... I mean, I think your...
in, in terms of like the trends coming and going, right, like newsletters I think maybe this is like a moment where newsletters are so popular, but it's also like such a cyclical thing.
Newsletters were like I think from the '90s- Yeah... and then it was blogging, and now it's this, and it's all just writing online, right?
And, uh, I mean, then there's the AI question about like AI search and, eh, we don't need to go down there. I don't particularly care- Right... to go down that route.
Um, what, what are the three lessons, could be from anything, like a life lesson, something about being a creator, something about video essays, about writing, et cetera. Hmm.
Three things you've learned, um, in the past 15 months from doing this. Ooh, okay. I'm thinking of like two right now. I might have to think on the third.
Um, I think the first and foremost one, and this might sound a little bit cl- cliche, but it's truly something I'm constantly reminding myself of, is this idea of like truly doing what's working for you and what you enjoy.
I c- I can never get this quote right. It's... but it's like being a first rate version of yourself as opposed to a second rate version of someone else.
That's something that I always try to really remember, um, because you never know what the thing is that you're doing that could be, you know, paving a way for something entirely new.
Um, you know, I think it's, it-- I think it's easy to kind of get into this idea of like, "Oh, but there's this, there's this really great newsletter, and I wanna be like that, and maybe I should do things more like that newsletter."
Um, and instead of... And like obviously you should be drawing inspiration from people and work that is resonating with you.
But also at the same time, like understanding like what, what you bring to the table that's unique that like no one really else can. I think another thing, and this might be...
Like, this is kind of like, um, but I think for me like prioritizing specifically for newsletters, like prioritizing organic growth I feel like has been so great for me.
I think that's really been helpful for me, and it's something that like I definitely would recommend.
Even if it is slower, even if it takes a little bit longer, even if it requires like, you know, um, I wouldn't say more effort because sometimes even getting like paid growth takes a lot of work and a lot of effort.
Um, but this idea of like not being afraid of like slow growth or mo- or I guess like periods of time of slow growth 'cause those are really the opportunities that you get to recalibrate and be like, "Okay, what...
Where am I now, and what do I wanna be doing, and is this what I wanna be doing? Is there anything I wanna change?"
Um, I feel like those, like I feel like that's been something that's been really helpful for me, like not getting so caught up in these moments where, you know,
you'll have moments of fast growth, and that's great, and you're kind of just like swap dump into it, and by the time it ends, you're like, "All right, like let's like hope we're still holding on and everything's still working."
Um, but like not being afraid of those. And, hmm. No, I w- I'll, I'll... You can pause for a second and think of the third one- Oh, yeah... 'cause I wanna touch on some of that. I think, uh,
I mean, both of those two are kind of cliche, right? But I think it- Yeah... I think that's... It's all it is. Like- Yeah... it, it all comes down to that.
And like, you know, there's all the different like growth tactics, et cetera, that you can do, and, you know, we... I put that together in that, in the Creator Growth Albendaz. Yeah.
But, um, I really think, you know, it's just like especially you have to be doing just something that you're interested in. Like, again- Yeah... I'm not gonna sit and watch 24 hours of- [laughs]...
video essays in two days. I will sit [chuckles] and like, you know, I probably spent like four hours researching you before this, and then- Right, right...
I'll spend like however many, like four or five hours putting, to 10 hours, et cetera, putting together the newsletter and all this stuff, and it's like it's because I like doing that, and that's fun. Yeah.
And like y- this is also my full-time job, and like that's a lot. Right. I'm lucky to have that. But like I like doing that, and I like, like looking stuff up, up online and like putting together a story.
And everybody I talk to who is like good at this and who's built an audience, they are just doing something they like to do and like would be doing otherwise, and you would be watching, you know, maybe not 24 hours in two days- Oh, sh-...
or whatever, but you'd be [chuckles] watching a lot of videos otherwise, and you always have been. And it's like- Yeah... if you'd started this newsletter a few years earlier, like maybe you'd be somewhere else.
So like it, it doesn't matter. You started it then, and like your growth is like insane. Like most people would... are not gonna get that many subscribers in the first few months, let alone like in the first year.
Um, but yeah. I think it's like, do what you love, you'll never work a day in your life. But it's like- Yeah...
with a c- when you're like a creator and like doing this thing for yourself, it's like you're gonna actually be doing it every day of your life, so like you- Yeah... better love it. It's more of like a threat almost.
You better [laughs]. Yeah, exactly. Um, but then the other thingYour level of organic growth is, is quite rare. I think like people-- most people don't take to like TikTok or Twitter- Yeah...
or whatever, or LinkedIn as well as you have. Um, so I don't, I don't know. I like... I'm not sure though. Again, I think it goes back to the first point, because I don't know if that's something you can like teach.
Like you, you can- Yeah... teach like principles, but you have to like enjoy sitting down and like doing the little selfie camera, and then like a- and talking about the thing. Like, and that's all it is. Yeah.
Like, it's like... I mean, kudos to you. It's like i- very impressive what you've been able to do on, on, on TikTok.
But like, again, that just goes back to the first point for me of, of like you better love doing what you're doing. Oh, and my last thing on that, on the organic growth thing- Oh, wow...
is like I think a lot of people think that like participation in the creator economy is like a, a merit leverageable lottery where like- Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm...
you can make a lot of money, and you, you get big, get famous, et cetera. Get your fifteen minutes of fame.
Um, and that all you need to do is like have a little bit of skills, skills which you can learn quickly online, and I think- Right... a lot of people make a lot of money selling courses on that- Mm-hmm... um, et cetera.
But I think that like, again, like it's not that lottery. Like- Yeah... which this still just goes back to that first point of you better enjoy doing it, or you're gonna have just no fun at all. Yeah. Um, anyways.
And it's like creating... Yeah, and I think like also it's like creating the thing that you would want. Yeah. 'Cause chances are you're not the only person that has a need for something.
[chuckles] Like if you feel like there is something that you could provide that would be an addition to somebody's life and would be, you know, the reason that they are excited to open their emails on Wednesday mornings, like that I think that's something that it's definitely at the very least it's a good start.
Like wherever that ends up, some of it is teachable, but a lot of it is hard, and it's like there isn't one person's like rise to success that could be replicated in its exact way.
Like even that one person, if they did it kind of like at another time or place, like- Just luck, et cetera. Yeah. Yeah, completely. Like there's so, there's so much else at play.
Your best bet is to do the thing that you enjoy and that you think will add value, and that like, you know, as far as you know, only you could do. Thank you for joining me. Uh, thank you listener for listening.
Aya, tell them where to find you. So you can find me on TikTok at, @deepdivenewsletter, and you can find me at the Deep Dive Newsletter website, which is www.deepdivenewsletter.com.
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