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Welcome back to the Creator Spotlight podcast.

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Our guest today is Ambreen Ali, founding editor of the Central Desi newsletter, co-host of the Pinch On podcast, creative director at a marketing agency, the managing editor of the Prison Journalism Project's Inside quarterly newspaper, and a freelance journalist with bylines in The Washington Post, Fortune, the LA Times, and plenty more.

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Um, and I'm sure I'm missing, like, a few things. You do a lot. How are you? I'm doing great. Thank you. Good. [laughs] Okay, good.

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Um, so I wanted to talk to you because I feel like a lot of the people I speak to for this can be divided into two camps. And not that these camps don't apply to your work, but I think a lot of people are more

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like a creative-driven, a personal column on the newsletter internet is how I think of it.

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And then a lot of people are more business-driven, where it's maybe they're aggregating other work that's out there on the internet and creating this, like, ads business around it.

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But there's this, like, cultural ambition to what you're doing with Central Desi and this, like, really, this, like, journalism with integrity that you don't often see, I think, on the newsletter internet because it takes a lot of work.

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Um, so that's why I wanted to talk to you. You know, you're doing this thing where it's the newsletter format, but you're publishing original work from multiple writers.

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It's not like your personal blog, um, which, you know, I love the personal blogs, but again, refreshing to see. Um, so could you explain, like, what this newsletter is and why it exists? Yeah, absolutely.

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I think that that's a really keen observation, and it really comes from the fact that I came into the newsletter, um, kind of business in a different perspective or from a different place than most, uh, newsletter creators.

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I was a journalist. I am a journalist, um, for fifteen years before I started the newsletter.

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And the real reason I started it is because as I was freelancing and telling stories about immigrant communities in New Jersey, which is where I live, um, I had noticed that a lot of our local journalism outlets were just not doing that good of a job of kind of providing journalism coverage of those communities with depth.

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And it's really not their fault. They just don't have the budgets. They don't have reporters that they can kind of devote to specific communities anymore. Mm-hmm.

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And so I identified this gap, and then I realized that with Substack having become so popular, and then Beehiiv coming out and, and kind of newsletter platforms becoming big, that there was this opportunity to self-publish and to kind of go beyond the gatekeepers, the traditional, like, newspaper gatekeepers, and just do it yourself.

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A community could publish for itself. The community could tell its own stories.

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And the way that I do it, you know, in collaboration with journalism outlets in the state, it also gives this opportunity for those same New Jersey publications that weren't covering this community in great detail before to collaborate with me and then take my stories and publish them and also give them kind of a wider audience.

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So it's kind of a win-win for everybody. Yeah. And it's really focused on the journalism first. Yeah.

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Um, so I, my understanding is that this kind of idea came out of you were in this, um, this entrepreneurial journalism program at CUNY, and this-- I don't know if this was, like, an idea you had going into it that you wanted to develop, or it was something that was birthed, like, within that program.

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But tell me about what that program was and how it, like, led to this. Yeah. So I did go into the program with a proposal around this idea of wanting to cover the South Asian community in New Jersey through a newsletter.

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Um, I don't think I would have done it if I hadn't done the program, honestly, because the program really kind of equips, like, mid-career journalists with the skills, business skills they need to be entrepreneurs.

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Mm-hmm. And, um, that's just something that we're not taught in our careers. It's not, you know, a thing we did in the past, but now the way that the ecosystem is online, it is something a lot of journalists are doing.

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They are launching their own things. They are kind of becoming like one person, um, kind of m- media outlets. And so, um, that's what the program was designed to do.

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It's like a hundred-day crash course in launching a podcast or a newsletter, and it really takes you from kind of taking that idea to how the nuts and bolts would work and h- and how to just get it off the ground.

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You know? Mm-hmm. It doesn't have to be perfect to, to, to launch. I think that a lot of journalists can be kind of perfectionists.

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If you come from the world of print, like, you need everything to be just, like, you know, really tight and perfect- Copy edited fully... before you put it out there. Exactly. Yeah. Yeah.

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It's like, oh, like you're gonna write a book or something, but that's not how the internet works. It's like, just get it out there, you know, just start experimenting, and that- that's what I did.

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So when I finished the program, I just launched the newsletter and then start-- I, like, sort of sent it out to just family and friends and told people about it through word of mouth.

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And then I just started writing an article a month at first. Mm-hmm. So I really started pretty slowly, but it got me going. Yeah.

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Um, so I wanna get back into the, into the program in a little bit, but first I wanna talk about, like, the, there's kinda two chapters of the newsletter.

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So it's been going now for, uh, two, two days, two years and two days. I think the first post was July 22nd, 2022.

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Um, and you've put out now fifty-two issues, and fifteen of those were in the first year, and thirty-seven have been in the second. So I think the first year, my impression is that it was like you had just started.

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You were like, exactly what you're saying, like, "Let's just do it. Let's just put it out there, you know, once a month." Um, and [chuckles] then I think you kind of started to get burnt out.

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Uh, you have this post, like, uh, shortly after the year anniversary where you're like, "I almost quit."

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Um, and, you know, these two things happened where you got this, this partner in the business, um, w- who, who, who became a project manager, and you got this eighty-one thousand dollar grant.

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Um, so before we get to there, though, tell me about, like, I don't know, th- this first year and, like, this leading up to being like, "I don't know if I can do this anymore."You know, I have been a reporter in a lot of newsrooms, but I've never had to pay the bills for a [laughs] newsroom.

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And I didn't realize how expensive it is to do journalism, really honestly. Mm-hmm. And so I thought, "Yeah, I can do a story a month, no big deal."

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And then when I started doing it, I realized how much time it took, and I was doing it alongside other things.

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I had a day job, I had other commitments, um, I was teaching at the time, and so it was really hard to kind of make the time for it.

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And I, I felt myself struggling, and I just realized the economics of the news business are more complicated than I realized. Yeah. Like, takes a lot.

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And it was really hard to do it on my own, especially because it was a community newsletter meant to kind of engage the South Bay- It's not about you... community in New Jersey. Yeah. Yeah.

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It needed to be a team of people.

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And so by the end of that first year, I kind of felt like, "I'm not gonna be able to do this on my own, and I'm not really sure if I'm doing it to kind of a level of quality that I'm proud of." Mm-hmm.

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And so it's kind of that, um, again, that sort of perfectionist, like, I, if it's not that great, then why am I doing it kind of attitude.

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Um, even though I was getting really positive feedback, and the stories I was doing were definitely elevating this community and telling stories that were not being told otherwise, it's just kind of that critic inside my head saying, like, "This isn't good enough."

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Yeah. You know, "You're not, you're not making this good enough." So, um, so yeah, getting the grant was a big change for me because then I could bring people in.

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You know, I has- had the ability to pay people for their time and so that really changed it. Yeah. That's, that's amazing. Congratulations. That's- Yeah. Thank you... that's so cool.

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Um, okay, there's a lot to get to do there, but I wanna go back briefly to the base numbers of the newsletter and like, kind of the, the health of it, and also like, where the audience could grow.

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So first, um, if you're comfortable sharing, like, what the subscriber count is, open rate, click rate, just the standard. Yeah. So we are still relatively small.

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Um, uh, our, currently we have about 800 subscribers, so it's a relatively small audience, but they're deeply engaged. Most of our, um, newsletters get an open rate of 60%. Um- Huge. Yeah. Yeah, exactly.

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It's really different than your typical newsletter business because everybody that is subscribing to it has opted in, and it's literally kind of like looking forward to reading the content when it comes out.

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Um, our click-through rates are really low. I don't really prioritize that because, um- Not really clicking the links in the newsletter... it's not really the... Yeah, exactly. That's really not the, the point of it.

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Yeah. It's really more the storytelling. Um, and then we have a social audience as well that we're working to grow. But, um, I'm a big fan of kind of slow growth. I feel like it's...

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You know, especially because we have that luxury, you know, we do have a premium subscription model. I don't think honestly that it will ever supplant the, um, the grant money.

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Like, I don't think local journalism ultimately, unfortunately, is a very strong business. [laughs] Like, that's kind of what we're s- the evidence [laughs] is showing us all over the country, right?

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I think it's going to need to be grant funded, but I think it's important work. You know, I think that there's a civic engagement piece to it that strengthens our democracy.

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You know, there's really kind of a, a reason to be doing this work. Yeah.

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But that being said, um, you know, I, I think that it's good to grow slowly because it allows us to kind of get our sea legs and, and really kind of figure out what we're doing and do it well, um, and, and be deeply engaged with the audience.

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So we had kind of an, our first in-person event this spring- Yeah... at a library where we put together a panel of Bay C authors and had our community come out.

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And we really wanna make kind of like live events part of the engagement tools- Mm-hmm... that we use. Yeah. No, that's amazing, and I, I, I think slow growth is something that appeals to me.

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I think, you know, things that grow slow often stick around longer, healthier, deeper roots, et cetera. I can mix metaphors here, but I'll- Yeah... I'll resist it.

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Um, how, like, so how has that subscriber count grown though? Has it been like word of mouth?

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You said you started like friends and family, and then, I mean, it being such a community focused product, like, I have to imagine it's like people sharing it with, with their friends and family, and that's kind of how it's happened.

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Um, is, is that how it's happened? Exactly, yeah. People sharing the newsletter. You know, uh, I ask at the end of the newsletter for, if you like it, just to share it with one person.

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You know, that kind of personal recommendation can go a long ways. We also have our social media presence, and so sometimes stories will kind of spread that way.

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People just finding out about it and, you know, getting excited about it when they see us out and about.

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Um, often when we report our stories, you know, we're talking one-on-one with various members of the communities, and so they'll tell their people or, you know, their staff members at the organization or whatever it may be.

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And so it really is kind of word of mouth so far. We did a little bit of social media marketing around our live event, and that was fairly effective. Like, I think that might be something we do more of.

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Um, but again, like, those, those are the pieces of this we're still kind of building out.

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We've been focusing so much on the editorial content, but, you know, we need to think about marketing and, like, sales and all of that. Yeah.

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You know, and that, and that, I think that requires just a little bit more time. Yeah. What's the version of this that is a sustainable business in, in your dream, say?

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Like, I mean, like you said, the premi- there is the premium subscription model. I think it's $15 a month, 150 a year, but that's more of just, like, a supporting local journalism thing. Mm-hmm.

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That's not, it's not, like, exclusive stuff. Again, that's not really the, the idea here. Um, but let's say, like, in a year or two, uh, what, what does this being a sustainable thing look like for you? Yeah.

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I think ideally you have a diverse stream of revenue. So one, we talked about the grants, you know? Mm-hmm. And hopefully there's always kind of space for that.

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There's a, an initiative that started this year called Press Forward. It's a $500 million investment by philanthropies in local journalism around the country. Mm-hmm.

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And there's a very serious kind of effort now by, um, nonprofits to look at local journalism as something to fund. So I'm pretty optimistic that-That opportunity will remain.

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And then we have the subscriptions, which as you noted, is not about getting exclusive content necessarily, although I think we are open to and have considered maybe doing some exclusive, like, member events- Mm-hmm...

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like where, like a, maybe a virtual gathering where they get to talk to our reporters, like kind of giving some perks to the people who support us. But it's really more like when you pay, you know, NPR. Yeah.

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It's like a membership- NPR or PBS... because people believe in... Yeah. Yeah. Exactly. That's the... We sort of treat it like a membership, not a subscription.

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And then the third prong that we haven't explored yet, but I think we should, is, um, advertising. Mm. Local advertising, just like the local papers had when we were growing up.

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You know, you have your local Indian restaurant wants people to come in and check out the food, or, you know, there's a new jewelry store.

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There are so many small businesses in this community, and, you know, to the extent that we can offer them a way to advertise, I think that that's also... I, I think it's symbiotic.

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It's like the kind of advertising that would make sense for our community because it's serving them and kind of introducing them to other options and, you know, businesses in the community. Yeah.

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Um, so just being kind of careful and, like, mindful about the kind of advertising, not just, like, pay-per-click stuff. But, um, but you know, even that, I think when it's aligned, is appropriate.

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Um, Beehive has just kind of launched that opportunity to monetize through advertising in the newsletters. I'm really excited about that and that growing. Yeah. I think it could be a good option for us.

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So just having, like, multiple streams so that we have a diversified revenue stream, and then that supporting a fairly small team. Yeah. Like, that's my vision for sustainability.

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We're not trying to become a 30-person newsroom. We don't need to be that. You know, we just need a couple people really, and that can be enough to sustain a newsletter.

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That can be enough to tell kind of the stories of the local community. Um- Yeah... that's kind of what's different about this version of local journalism from the newspaper version.

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Like, we're, we can be small and nimble, and, like, we can use digital tools to our advantage. Yeah. So something that

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kind of keeps coming up in my mind as you've, as you, as you've been saying a few things, there's this post you did shortly before you started the newsletter, like a week before from the, after you finished the program at CUNY.

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Um, and you said this thing, "I did not expect to build community with a global co- cohort of mid-career journalists grappling with the same existential questions about this trade as me."

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Um, and the way you're talking about, like, you know, figuring out these different models for journalism, I would love to hear more about that. Like, what were some of these other questions people were grappling with?

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What w- uh, what were some of the answers they were coming up with? Yeah, I mean, I started my journalism career, um, really interested in foreign correspondence.

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Like, I, I went to India and I worked for the AFP in New Delhi, and it was an incredible experience, and I've always really been interested in, like, international journalism.

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And one of the cool things about the entrepreneurial course was that because it's online, we had journalists from all over the world. And so we had, for example, in my cohort, somebody who was interested in, uh...

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She's based in Southeast Asia.

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She's a Brazilian reporter based in Southeast Asia, and she was interested in writing about human sex trafficking and creating a podcast to kind of tell more stories about this world that she had already been covering as an audio journalist.

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It was things like that that really kind of motivated me.

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Like, I, I was just so inspired by the, the seriousness of the topics that the journalists wanted to tackle, the level of passion they had for these stories, how they're out in the world. A lot of them were freelancers.

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You know, some of them worked for outlets, uh, full-time. But, um, journalism has, you know, seen so many kind of chaotic disruptions as a result of the internet over the past two decades.

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But, uh, what persists, I think, is this, like, this drive or this mission that journalists have to surface important stories about the world, to explain what's going on in the world so that people are engaged and care and wanna make a difference.

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Mm-hmm. And so I just felt incredibly inspired by that. And as I said, like, the existential question is sort of like, how do you [laughs] make a living doing this work? [laughs] Yeah.

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Really, it's the main one, you know? And what happens to our, our industry when we're just watching, like, newspaper after newspaper fold. I just read this stat that last year,

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um, two and a half news- local newspapers closed every week. Yeah. God. Like, last year was really brutal for journalism. We saw a lot of widespread layoffs. I think the LA Times laid off 115 people.

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Like, it was kind of intense. And even our, like, digital publications that have been relatively successful, like Vox, have been- Mm... laying off folks.

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So it's really hard to sustain a career when you see, like, the institutions around you crumbling. But unfortunately or fortunately, we just happen to be kind of an industry that's very easy to disrupt.

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And so there's a lot of innovation happening, too, and that's where the program kind of gave me some hope because I saw all of these journalists kind of like saying, "Okay, let's, let's do it.

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Let's figure out how to use the tools we have now to keep telling these stories." Like, that underlying mission persists. We'll find a way. Yeah.

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And, like, all the innovation you're seeing around even some of the conversations you and I just had about the types of revenue opportunities, it's just a totally different field.

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And the fact that as a creator, as a reporter, as a journalist, I'm also thinking about the business and the revenue. Like, we've always had a bit of a firewall in our industry around that- Yeah...

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but we don't have that luxury anymore. Like, we just have to figure all of it out, right? [laughs] Yeah. So okay, there's a lot I wanna get into there.

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But one thing, um, which is another thing from, uh, that, the article I'd mentioned that you wrote right before starting the newsletter, um, you wrote how as, like, an institutionally trained journalist, you didn't al- you always were setting yourself aside in the reporting, right?

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Like, journalist's neutrality.

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Um, but that it kind of started to feel less and less right for you to do that-Um, and I think this is something I think that's tied up in what we were just talking about, about like journalistic models, you know, crumbling, and creators and indie creators becoming more of this thing.

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I think that there's like both less demand for neutrality, uh, which, but also more, [laughs] which is kind of confusing.

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But what I'm, what I'm getting at is that like with so many individual voices and people having access to broadcasting their individual voices, I think people get used to not having neutrality, but in the same way, it like creates this vacuum where it's like harder to figure out like what is like objectively true, which is what, you know, neutral reporting attempts to report.

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Um, it's this confusing thing, but I guess I'm curious how you feel about like the role of neutral reporting as it were in the kind of indie creator era. Yeah. I mean, this is, this is such a hard question. Yeah.

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It's like [laughs] it is, um- There's no right answer. Yeah, exactly. And I think that there has definitely been ev- evolution in the last 15 years in the journalism industry around this.

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Like, um, more and more I see outlets like The New York Times allowing reporters to bring like their first-person voice into stories.

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And I think part of that is the audience is looking for authenticity, and they know that there's a person writing the story.

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And when it's appropriate, when it makes sense in the story, they want that perspective, you know?

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And for me, writing about the South Asian community in New Jersey, as a South Asian who's a member of that community, um, it would be inauthentic for me to pretend like I'm some, you know, kind of third-party observer- Yeah...

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of this community. I'm not, and, and I, and I shouldn't be actually. Like, I, I- my perspective is that, uh, communities, like, should be reported on by people who belong to them- Mm-hmm...

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because that's, those are the people that know the most about the community. Um, so I bring in that perspective when it's appropriate, you know?

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Like, um, that color run story, my, my kid's school had a color run, and so I wrote about that in, in the piece, and that's, I think, totally fine. Mm-hmm.

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Now, where I think the slippery slope is, and this is really tricky because I'm a bit of an old-school journalist and I, I now tr- like train and teach young journalists, and they're growing up in social media era, and they don't necessarily realize how important the, like, bedrock of, like, I, I don't wanna call it objectivity 'cause it's such a problematic word- Yeah...

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but kind of journalistic integrity, how important that is. Like, it is crucial. It is the thing that distinguishes us from all other content on the web. Like, if we just pontificate, we have basically become nothing.

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Like, we are the truth tellers. Our job is to be out there finding facts and a, like, just offering them for our readers to make up their minds about them, you know?

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And being as, uh, open as we possibly can, knowing that we're humans, knowing that we are also kind of inevitably going to bring our perspectives to them.

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You know, in covering the South Asian community, this is c- a community that in the past would have been reported on by mostly white reporters in newsrooms in New Jersey because those newsrooms have not been very diverse.

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And so those white reporters would have brought their white lens to that community and written about it that way, and you can see that in the reporting when you look at it. Mm-hmm.

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There's a lot of exotification of things, right? Like, that shouldn't be a surprise. Like, and so even those reporters were bringing a perspective into their stories when they were, like, pretending to be objective.

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Mm-hmm. I think that's where audiences have lost that, they've become cynical about objectivity 'cause they're like, "That's not a thing. Like, everybody's a person."

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Well, wait, so this is, this is something I, I think about a lot and I talk about a lot on this podcast, is like whether or not, like the degree to which audiences realize that. Like, I'm [sighs]

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I like to think that, like, there's, like, more media literacy with this kind of fragmentation of, of content, you know, being the flattening word that includes everything we look at on our phones, right?

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I, I like to think there's like a greater understanding that, like, each person, each source, each institution even brings this raft of biases, right? Um, but I'm, I'm still not sure.

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Like, I'm not sure if the trust that was placed in institutions for so many years, like, if that...

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And now the distrust that is seemingly like, you know, now pl- now placed on, now, like, broadcasted on institutions, if that is also translated to more of these individual independent creator-type voices.

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Like, are people also, like, is the lesson that, like, we should doubt, we should like, you know, not doubt, but, like, examine what people say, you know, and like, uh, practice that kind of like healthy media literacy?

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Or is the lesson that, like, individual people are right?

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Um, and one, one thing I'll say about this is somebody I asked this to a couple months ago, he used this term farm to table content, where he was like, "People like Joe Rogan because he is like, it's straight from the source.

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Like, it's just him talking and people like that." Um, so [laughs] now I'm getting- Mm-hmm... this is getting a little too deep.

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Um, I guess, I guess the question is, like, do you, do you think that there's more media literacy than ever, or is it just as fraught as ever? No, there's definitely, like, no media literacy- [laughs]...

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and it, it's worse than ever. Yeah. [laughs] Um, I mean, that, yeah, I, I, I feel like I have so much to say about this, like the f- farm to table thing. [laughs] Yeah.

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In some ways, like, um, in some ways, like, maybe we're also doing that a little bit. Mm-hmm. We're trying to say, like, the give the community the mouthpieces, let the community, like, tell their own stories.

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We have the tools now to make that possible. Let's train up kind of community reporters.

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That's part of the mission of the work that we're doing at Central Desi and, and with the consortium in general, the work that they're doing in New Jersey. Um-But e- media literacy is at an all-time low. Yeah.

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Like, I think that, um, you know, the, the, the trust that has been eroded in these institutions, part of that is because there's so much noise and so much propaganda and so much kind of biased news available on social media that it has kind of, um, made audiences, like, unaware of what's real and what's not.

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Yeah. And also, I think a lot of people don't really know what journalism... And this, this kinda sits with us, I think, and our responsibility.

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They don't really know how journalism is produced or what those kind of principles were that, you know, we were relying on to tell the news. Um,

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I don't think they, that the average person realizes how much integrity and work is involved in fact-checking, how we, you know, how editors are so careful in helping their reporters, like, make sure that every single thing is attributed.

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Even when it's not attributed in the story, you know who it came from. Mm-hmm. You're so careful with your word choice.

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Like, there's so much effort that goes in in traditional journalism to make sure that you're just printing the facts, and there is a lot of integrity in that process.

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And I don't think we ever really kind of did a good job of educating, like, to the general audiences on the level of work that was going in- That's hard... to make... Right?

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And then now, like, because we live in the, the era that we live of, of kind of skewed and slanted news, like, it's almost too late. Like, nobody...

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Th- people trust nobody, and then they just trust the people that, like, they, whose opinions they agree with. Yeah. Someone like Joe Rogan can, like, really establish rapport with his audience. You know, he is,

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m- he, he's on for a lot of airtime. People listen to his podcast. [laughs] Like, they really kind of feel like they know him- You soak in... and they trust him. Yeah.

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Yeah, and then you- you're like, "I trust this guy," and then whatever he says is the gospel for me. And, you know, I think that, I, I can only speak to my own experience as a consumer.

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Like, I try to diversify my news sources. I try to read varying perspectives, and maybe that era is, like, maybe that's quaint now. Yeah.

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Like, I don't know if anybody does [laughs] that anymore because social media's so good at kind of, you know, targeting us. Bringing in confirmation bias. Yeah. Yeah. Exactly.

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Like, kind of putting us in our little pigeonholes. But this is a big problem that will require solving. Like- Mm-hmm... I think we're at a low point now, but media literacy is becoming part of K through 12 education.

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It's g- becoming part of college education. It is a huge thing that we have to learn. Wait, I'm curious. I, I... So I feel like I...

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My, my vision is always clouded on this 'cause I literally studied, like, rhetoric and media in college, so I'm always, like, I don't... It's hard to look outside myself.

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But y- so you just said that it's being taught more in K to 12. What... How so? Yeah. I mean, my kids are in elementary school, and they learn media literacy. It's a part of their curriculum- Like, in what?...

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in New Jersey. In what? Like, is it- Like- Yeah, sorry. Like, to... So, so it's like they're learning how to look things up on the internet- Mm... and how to know what's real and what's not. Wow.

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And how do you research on the internet, right? Like, when you're doing an essay, like you and I, or at least I'll put myself in this bucket, like, I would go to the library, and I would, like, look at an encyclopedia.

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Like, there were things that were facts and things that were not. Yeah. And now kids are doing all their research online, so they have to learn how to use the internet and how to use it intelligently. Mm.

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And so that's part of the curriculum that, um, I think a lot of schools are now starting to adopt, and, and part of that is media literacy.

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It's just sort of like, what does it mean when your source is The New York Times versus, like, a local blog that a person is writing and you don't really know- Yeah... kind of the level of vetting that's gone into it.

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Um, and colleges, uh, are, are more so...

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Like, you know, traditionally it's been the people who have, like, comms or journalism degrees that get that kind of training, but now colleges are considering just making media literacy required for all students because it, it is, like, it's such an important skill set as a citizen- Yeah...

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in our country to be able to, like, discern the facts. And we can see all around us that the stakes are really high, like [laughs] right? Like, if we don't have informed voters and citizens, then a lot can happen.

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And so I think- A lot's lost.

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Yeah, exactly, and I think that's why, as I mentioned, all this money is coming into local journalism from philanthropies, is they're seeing how important these institutions were to kind of just community building but also a shared understanding of facts.

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Yeah, which is... I mean, and it's so amazing that you're getting this grant money. Um, I... So I wanna talk more about, like, traditional journalism and what you, what you like and don't like about it.

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Uh, so specifically, I know that you... Teaching is really important to you. Teaching is this, like, uh, [laughs] kind of what we're just talking about.

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It's like this value that's core to a lot of what you do, and you've been an adjunct. I think you're still involved with the, the Entrepreneurial Journalism Project, the, the, um, program that you were in. Mm.

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Uh, you, you know, you're teaching these fellows. I could go on. You, you, you do a lot of, like, teaching-related stuff.

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So specifically from what you were taught in traditional journalism, both in school and in these organizations, what do you try to pass on and carry the torch for, and is there anything that you actually don't carry the torch for and kind of leave aside?

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Yeah. Uh, thank you for that question, honestly, because that is kind of the other side of the coin of this.

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Like, I, as I mentioned, like, kind of that journalism integrity, the, the importance of checking your facts, like, interviewing, the ability to put aside your perspective to tell a story.

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Like, those are the things I try to teach- Yeah... my fellows and, and anybody I'm teaching.

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Um, especially young people today, I think they feel like, um, they, they should be allowed to kind of be, like, almost like activists in their journalism sometimes, you know? Mm-hmm.

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And I, I realize that there are a lot of issues that get, you know, young people kind of, like, riled up, and, and they wanna write about them, and they wanna cover them. And it...

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I had to do a lot of, like, helping people see, like, if you are an activist, that the... Like, you have to-Put that aside in a way when you're a journalist.

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Um, I'm thinking last year, you know, um, the Israel and Gaza war was happening, and my reporters really wanted to write about the consequences of that in New Jersey, and so we were looking for angles to write about that.

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Um, we, you know, the Islamophobia was an issue, and at the same time, there were hate crimes happening against Jews as well.

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And so teaching my reporters how important it was to kind of represent the whole pie of what was happening and not just focus in on one thing just because that's the thing you relate to. Like,

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it's hard to teach that stuff- Yeah... but it is really important, and that's the parts of journalism that I carry with me.

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Also, investigative journalism, you know, just the discipline of it, the, it, how to write a FOIA request to get information from the government, you know, how to kind of track down information about, um, something that's happening, understand, you know, and hold our- The art of finding facts, really.

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Yeah, exactly, like holding public officials to account. Yeah. Um,

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but, uh, one of the classes actually I, I taught recently was about how, uh, it was race and gender in, in journalism and how, um, k- uh, the, the course was primarily about how journalism for so long has kind of used kind of the white, male, middle class lens as the default lens and the default audience.

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And there's a lot of kind of institutionalized systemic bias in what we thought was, like, objective- Yeah... neutral journalism. So to speak.

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So there is that, that whole world is, like, what I'm hoping not to carry forward, you know?

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As a, um, a chi- like, as an immigrant who, um, I, you know, my family is Muslim, and I basically, um, started college right after 9/11, so my upbringing was very much, like, in an identity crisis- Yeah...

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because the country was really divided at that time.

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There was this, like, suspicion of the Muslim community, and this feeling that I just kind of, like, absorbed that, like, "Oh, I'm not fully American because I'm this other thing too that sometimes people perceive to be as, at odds with being American."

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And a big part of my kind of growth over the last 20 years has been kind of demanding my Americanness and being like, "No, I am American."

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And that was part of my journalism trajectory too because I was a political reporter. I was, uh, one of the first things I did was cover the Tea Party movement when I got to DC.

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That was, like, a big thing under the Obama administration.

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And I was going to these rallies where, like, there's all this anti-Islamic, like, rhetoric and, you know, and I was covering it and then trying to, like, grapple with how to cover that objectively, neutrally- Yeah...

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you know, and, like, n-not insert myself in it.

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And yet at the same time, I sensed like I wasn't telling the full story because I am there, and I am te- like, I, I think today if there was a Muslim reporter covering, like, the Tea Party movement or the far right, like, they would write about their own experience doing that because audiences would want to know that.

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But 15 years ago, that wasn't really- They couldn't... the world of journalism, was it? Yeah. Yeah. So that is evolving.

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I think the recognition that, like, for so long journalism has served a specific audience, you know, like, um, the, in the, in the civil rights era, so much journalism was just, like,

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like, the, the assumption the editors were making was that their audiences were white. Yeah.

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And they, they weren't covering those issues from the perspective that Black people were reading their newspapers, and they weren't.

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You know, there was a separate Black press, and the Black press was covering that stuff. You know, that's not the America we live in now.

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We need our institutions to evolve so that they are really representing the voices of all the diversity. And I'm focusing a lot on the South Asian community.

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It's a community I know, but this is true across the board, right? Like, we need media to meet the needs of all Americans, and that is a, an incredibly diverse set of people today. Yeah.

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Um, this reminds me of something you said on the Pehchan podcast, um, last November when you were on.

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I listened to that episode, and y- uh, you were kind of tying together these different conversational threads and talking about your Pakistani identity, um, your American identity, your children's identities, and, and I'm, I'll quote you here.

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You say, "The problem has not been a questioning of my American identity this whole time. It's been that America hasn't been inclusive enough of what it means to be American, and it's my job to make that more inclusive."

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And I think that kind of is the thesis of...

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It's, it's, it's what you just said reiterated, but it's the thesis of, like, how you approach journalism and, like, what you're talking about, about there should, you know, funding in local journalism and Central Desi and, like, e- you know, other things across the country that people might be doing, these community-based things.

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It's like the point of journalism is to, like, paint the, you know, great tapestry of, like, the however many millions of people who live in, in this country and ar-around the world.

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But, like, the point is to, like, create agency, create voice, create community, um, which is a good segue to your work on the Prison Journalism Project. I'm, I'm curious to hear more about that.

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What I understand is you became a managing editor of the Inside newspaper, which is something that, uh, is distributed to, to inmates, uh, in, like, American prisons that, like, kind of helps teach journalistic practices, um, and, you know, like, create that agency ultimately, I imagine, is the goal.

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So I, I'd love to hear just a little m- little bit more about what that project is. Yeah, that's exactly it. Um, first of all, just what you said about the tapestry, like, you nailed it.

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Like, I think that was really well put. And, um, yeah, and, and in a way, that's sort of, like, my bias.

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That's the one bias I'm kind of, like, letting into the work that I'm doing at Central Desi, is, like, I firmly believe that the community, this, this is a part of the tapestry of America- Yeah...

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and it deserves to be told. Like, the stories deserve to be told. Your bias towards multiculturalism and there being however many individuals there are.And people having voices- Yeah...

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and people having, being heard and their stories being told, you know, and told with, like, care and nuance and, and respect.

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And so, um, so that w- really extends to the work that I do with the Prison Journalism Project. They are a nonprofit educational, um, outlet that aims to train people in prison on how to tell their stories.

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And, um, you know, some of that is kind of training them for the possibility of when they get out, becoming journalists and entering kind of newsrooms. And then, you know, the reality is there aren't a ton of those jobs.

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[laughs] So part of that is also just, like, uh, letting them tell stories about the world that they live in.

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You know, prisons, um, house, uh, almost two million people in this country, and it is, that is a community that we don't hear from very often. Yeah.

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We hear a lot about prisons from people that are reporting on them from the outside. But the day-to-day, like, what does it feel like to be in a prison story is often not really told.

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You know, you might see it in a documentary. You might see it here and there. So really kind of empowering those individuals to tell their own stories.

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It's very similar in a mission, I think, to Central Desi- Absolutely... because I'm, I'm kind of doing the same thing. It's like I want the community to tell their own stories and see what comes up. And so, um,

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that's, uh, you know, kind of the crux of it. But I love doing this work because it's a print newspaper, so I get to kind of nerd out and, like,

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there's layout and there's, like, you know, it's like a finite thing, and there's- Mm-hmm... how do you fit this article and how are you gonna tell these stories? And, and it's a fun teaching challenge, right?

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Like, most teaching is done live in person. You're standing in front of kids and you're, you're teaching them. But here, like, I'm not necessarily gonna have direct contact with the person. All I have is- Yeah...

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like, the words I put into the newspaper. And so how do you kind of develop exercises that help them learn things? The issue that I'm working on right now is all about how to structure a piece. Mm-hmm.

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You know, I interview journalists, um, to talk about how they think about structure, and it's really kind of fun to take kind of the, the, the learnings of journalism and then try to translate it to this audience that is, um...

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You know, a lot of people in prison are illiterate, and the, um, kind of literacy level is sort of, uh, pretty low. It's like- Yeah... middle school or even lower than that on average.

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Um, and so you're really kind of, you're teaching adults. They have a lot of experience and, and, you know, lived experience in their lives, but their literacy levels are so low.

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So how do you kind of reach them in a way that, um, you know, helps them kind of learn these skillsets? It's, it's really, really, like, kind of fun teaching challenge. Yeah. That's so, that's an amazing thing.

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How much time, by the way, like, uh, I don't know, per week or per month do you spend on Central Desi? So I spend about 10 to 15 hours a week on it right now. Wow. How about, like, uh, the other people involved?

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Um, so I have a person who's working 20 hours a week on it right now, um, and then my project manager, we're, we're kind of, like, taking a little respite for the summer- Mm...

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but typically, he's doing five hours a week. Um, and then the fellows, as I mentioned, we're doing, like, a story a month. Yeah. So a little bit less time, yeah.

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I actually would love to hear more about, like, the relationship with the fellows 'cause looking at this and, like, it being this grant-funded thing and, like, understanding a bit of your values, I...

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It seems to me that, like, all else aside, this is a success as long as you can, like, you know, pass on this kind of, these journalistic integrity practices and educate these fellows.

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To me, that seems to be as much the point as, like, building this, you know, community and creating this, like, culture around the newsletter because it's, it's actually the same thing to, like, pass on this knowledge to people so that- Mm...

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they can do that, right? Um, I don't know. I'd just love to hear you talk more about the, the fellowship program. Yeah.

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A big, a big kind of, like, win for me last year was that one of our fellows wanted to be a political reporter and, um, I was helping her with that, you know, like, totally happy to support that.

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But about halfway through the fellowship, she was like, "I actually really think I wanna do local journalism. I find, like, community-based journalism way more interesting, and this is the work that I want to do."

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And I just felt like that was such a kind of, like, you know, moment of validation for the work- Absolutely... that we do to c- convince somebody because a lot of journalists kind of go into the field pretty ambitious.

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You know, they see, like, the famous reporters on CNN or whatever. Like, they want to be at the national stage. Like, that's the alluring- Yeah... part of the industry.

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And for somebody to say, "I see the value in local journalism," it's like, it's can be a hard sell.

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So you're right, like, h- kind of developing that pipeline, giving them this experience regardless of what they go on to do, which might, like, you know, later in their careers remind them of the value of this work or, like, kind of they might carry that with them.

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Like, that, that's a really kind of valuable thing that we do in the fellowship, and it is, like, um, a big part of the goal as well.

252
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And the way I see the newsletter too, and, like, every, uh, story that we put out is one more story about this community that doesn't get reported on.

253
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And so even if we folded, you know, a year from now, whatever it was, like, we would have put out X number of stories that- Yeah... wouldn't have existed. 52 to date. And like, that, that matters, right?

254
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And so I see a lot of value in that as well. Um, but yeah, I think you're right. The fellowship is, like, a big piece of what we're doing, which is we are helping create opportunities for young reporters. Mm-hmm.

255
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Often when you finish journalism school, you kind of have to take, like, you have to work your way up, right? Yeah. So there's, like, fact-checking jobs and jobs like that that you do.

256
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Very rarely somebody give you the opportunity to write, like, a feature story about a community you really care about.

257
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And the feedback we kept getting during the fellowship from the fellows was that, "I've never been kind of allowed to tell stories like this. You know, I've never been kind of able to tell stories about my own community.

258
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This means a lot to me." Um, we had a training program that we ran for the fellows, and I brought in variety of, uh, established reporters, uh, vast majority of whom were South Asian.

259
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And, um, the fellows told us, like-This is the first time I've, I've heard from a journalist who's South Asian. Like, even kind of introducing them to kind of the models of people- Yeah...

260
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like them who have made it, you know, that was something I didn't have when I first became a journalist. I didn't see a lot of people like me at the top.

261
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And so it can be hard to reach for those leadership positions if you don't see people like you at, in them, right? So we're very lucky now to have, like, a very established reporter.

262
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We have reporters from NPR and the LA Times come and talk to the, the fellows and, um, and for them to see, like, "Yeah, these are places that I could work too," is really cool. Yeah. That's amazing.

263
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Um, I want to hear what you feel about the word creator. Like, not what you feel about it, but what, what, but what it means to you.

264
00:43:24.116 --> 00:43:37.956
Um, and I, to put it in a little bit of context, uh, again, that, that essay from the end of your entrepreneurial journalism course, you say, um, "Career journalists like me need to reimagine ourselves as media creators and business owners."

265
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And we've been talking about this, right? Like, the different ways to, of figuring out how to exist in the world.

266
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And I think at, at the beginning I said how a lot of people I talk to are, like, they have these, like, personal columns on the newsletter internet, which are often calling cards for freelance writing.

267
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Um, but then too in the context of, like, you're talking about these people, these fellows who are, like, trying to figure out a way, um...

268
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Now maybe I've said too much, but yeah, I guess what does the word creator mean to you? I love how accountable you're holding me to the words that I've [laughs] said in the past. [laughs] No, no.

269
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Um, but- I just, I just read too many. [laughs] No, it's true. It's like I have to, I have to think about that one because a creator is, like, it's such a challenging word. Just like content. Well, it's- It's like-...

270
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kind of too big to mean anything. Yeah. And, and I bristle at it a little bit because to some people, you know, a creator is, like, a, a very different thing than, than what we're- Yeah... talking about here.

271
00:44:31.116 --> 00:44:40.816
Well, wait, wait. But I- Sorry. Let me, let me interrupt you one more time with your own words. Um, so [laughs] again, on the podcast episode from last November, you said, "Is it healthy to put yourself out there?

272
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We live in the influencer era, and I really wanna be careful. I don't want to get caught in the I want to have the mic kind of attitude. I don't need that. I don't need to be famous. I'm really wary of that."

273
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Um, which I- it's see- it's clearly something that, like- Yeah... I don't think you're grappling with it. Yeah.

274
00:44:57.126 --> 00:45:06.076
But, like, you're the editor of Central Daisy, and you're, like, teaching people, and even on the podcast where you're now a co-host, it's like you seem to be balancing this well.

275
00:45:06.336 --> 00:45:14.216
I, [laughs] I guess I'm answering these questions for you. But I... Yeah. Okay. I'll, I'll shut up now. That is exactly, that is exactly what I was kind of hinting at with the bristling.

276
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Like, I think that there are a lot of people that just want to be famous, and I think that social media really encourages us to kind of live for that ambition. Mm-hmm. You know?

277
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Like, my kids are now like, "Oh, we wanna be YouTube influencers when we grow up." That's the- Like, that's a thing... I hear that's the main thing kids wanna be. That's the number one job. Yeah. Insane.

278
00:45:31.556 --> 00:45:43.036
Because it's so cool, right? [laughs] Mm-hmm. And I think that that's... Yeah. I mean, that's not what you should be in journalism for. A lot of journalists are, you know, driven by, like, the fame.

279
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It, it does, it feels pretty cool to be recognized- Yeah... for, you know, your intellect and your ability to kind of understand the world, and it is great, but it is, I think, a folly. Like, and, and you're right.

280
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Like, we have so many, like, um, creators now who are not necessarily reporters. I just think we have to maybe start distinguishing ourselves a little bit as journalists, kind of we both have to play that game.

281
00:46:07.296 --> 00:46:18.176
Like, we can't pretend that we're not creators. We are a part of that world. We have to adapt. We have to change, right? Like, we have- Mm-hmm... to change our storytelling to fit what makes sense for this era.

282
00:46:18.376 --> 00:46:26.976
So maybe a story isn't just, like, a 500-word article, but sometimes it's an Instagram reel, and that's just something we have to get comfortable with.

283
00:46:27.576 --> 00:46:36.336
Uh, maybe having an Instagram acc- account requires, like, putting your personality out there- Yeah... and letting people know who you are, and, like, so you are now in creator land, right?

284
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I think that's just part of the world that you have to- Yeah... we have to grapple with. But we have to enter that world saying, like, "Okay, we're here. We're different.

285
00:46:45.516 --> 00:46:56.355
Like, this is what's different about us," and you have to hang on to, like, the pieces of us that make us valuable to society as journalists, right? Mm-hmm. So yeah, the, the word creator, I think,

286
00:46:57.456 --> 00:47:02.336
I think when I was writing that, what I was thinking about was traditional journalists who are really resisting this change- Mm-hmm...

287
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and really treating it like we are not part of this world, you know, and, like, scoffing at, at the world of influencers on social media.

288
00:47:09.956 --> 00:47:19.126
But, um, we had somebody come speak to us during the entrepreneurial program, um, who was a TikTok creator, and she was like, "You guys need to get on TikTok-" Yeah...

289
00:47:19.126 --> 00:47:28.336
"because there's so much, like, there's so much misinformation, and there aren't a lot of people that are informed that are creating content on TikTok.

290
00:47:28.396 --> 00:47:38.726
And so the lack of journalists on TikTok is a problem because people aren't getting high quality information. Like, journalists need to be on TikTok to serve that role." Yeah.

291
00:47:38.756 --> 00:47:50.696
And so that for me was, like, a moment where I thought, "Yeah, that makes sense." We always have to go where our audiences are, and we have to bring our journalism skillsets with us while we do that, right?

292
00:47:50.736 --> 00:47:59.296
Which I- Like, there's that-... I feel like one of the greatest examples of that in my experience is, like, Jack Corbett's Planet Money, the Planet Money TikTok. Mm-hmm. Have you seen these? Where it's like...

293
00:47:59.786 --> 00:48:05.046
Uh, so, uh, maybe I said this already, but, like, I was definitely taught in one of my earlier jobs that, like,

294
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whether it's journalism or marketing or just, you know, making stuff for fun, like, it's all in the same swimming pool together, and it's gross, and, like, you're just all...

295
00:48:14.196 --> 00:48:23.156
Like, okay, this is, like, a soapbox I've been on recently that, like, the attention economy, right, is a zero-sum game. Attention is a limited resource.

296
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There's however many people in the world who are on their phone, uh, w- in whatever their algorithmic bubbles are, like, s- you know, whatever language they're speaking, they're looking at that kind of content online for however many hours a week, and that's a limited resource.

297
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And so it's like you just, like...

298
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Uh, whether you're news or, like, you know, mindless entertainment that's just trying to, like, make ad revenue from, like, three-year-olds watching it, like-You're all in the same pool, and, like, you just have to hook people more.

299
00:48:50.824 --> 00:48:59.634
Um, but I think, yeah, like with, with journalism and, like, quality stuff, it's like you just have to f- you, you have to be entertaining. You have to be transfixing. Mm-hmm.

300
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Like, that's why, like, on Twitter too, like, w- still where stuff happens, and it's like some big event will happen as they do every day these days, you know, for years.

301
00:49:10.704 --> 00:49:24.204
Um, and it's like you're on Twitter, and you're looking at this thing, and it's like y- I'm engaged with, like, this one event, whether it's like, you know, Biden dropping out or, like, Trump getting shot, and it's like for hours it's these different memes and takes on it.

302
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And it's like- Mm-hmm... you have to find a way to, like, get in that, that rush, that, like, those rapids of takes, right? With, like, something that, like... I don't know. I'm kinda going on a tangent now, but yeah.

303
00:49:36.514 --> 00:49:48.424
Well, yes, but I don't know that we could ever be as good at that- Mm... as somebody else because that's not our specialty. And so in a way, maybe we just have to bring something different to the table- Yeah...

304
00:49:48.824 --> 00:50:02.424
that has value, right? So the memes are fun, but when you want nuance and deep understanding, like, will you turn to a journalist? Yeah. And will you listen to their perspective on it? Because that's important too.

305
00:50:02.484 --> 00:50:12.344
And, you know, and then media literacy is part of that too, is like convincing people that that's important, that they should seek that out, and that that's going to help them be better people.

306
00:50:12.444 --> 00:50:20.214
Um, you know, it's all kind of, like, pretty complicated, but I do think that it's gonna be really hard for us to win at that game- Yeah...

307
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the attention economy game, because entertainment is more entertaining than journalism and news, right? And I don't want us to lose what we do in the process of trying to be entertaining.

308
00:50:30.484 --> 00:50:41.274
Like, I think we should definitely try to adapt and, and communicate in ways that people communicate, but we have to also remember that we bring a different value, right? Mm-hmm.

309
00:50:41.284 --> 00:50:46.824
Like, when we are reporting, and we are checking our facts, and we are, like, bringing new information.

310
00:50:46.944 --> 00:50:57.294
Um, a lot of the, the work, a lot of the content that you consume online is, like, like, based on the work of journalists, right? Yeah. Like, these creators are reading journalism- Mm...

311
00:50:57.294 --> 00:51:05.694
to get an understanding of the world, and then they're creating their work. So- Yeah... if we could just, like, I don't know, monetize our foundational work- Well, I think, no, that's-... a little better [laughs]...

312
00:51:05.704 --> 00:51:11.964
that's actually such a thing and, like, a problem. Like, there's so many aggregator newsletters. Uh, b- with SmartBrief, you were saying that's what you did. Yeah.

313
00:51:12.004 --> 00:51:18.254
Like, so many newsletters I see, I, I must follow, like, three dozen newsletters that, like, aggregate in some way.

314
00:51:18.764 --> 00:51:25.164
Um, and going back to the very beginning, like, again, that's a reason I wanted to talk to you is 'cause, like, you are not d- you're doing the opposite of that.

315
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You're doing the extremely hard, labor-intensive work of, like, creating original stuff. Um, and I guess, like, I don't... I'm looking for a way of, like, how do we encourage people to do that? Or, like, what's the way?

316
00:51:39.154 --> 00:51:52.684
And it seems like the answer is either grant funding or, like, f- finding another way to get ad revenue. I... The answer is just that, like, you know, it's really hard to make a sustainable media business. Um- Yeah...

317
00:51:53.224 --> 00:52:00.884
and you, and that's why there's so many aggregator newsletters is 'cause it's low resource intensive- It doesn't cost a lot... and a high... Yeah, exactly. Exactly. Yeah.

318
00:52:01.004 --> 00:52:10.764
The, the hard, the expensive part, the reporting, has been done at that point. The monetization has always been a challenge. Yeah. Like, newspapers sold classifieds. They sold ads.

319
00:52:10.904 --> 00:52:18.894
And then the content, the, the news articles, were, like, a money-losing part of the business. Like, that's not where the money was coming from. Yeah.

320
00:52:18.924 --> 00:52:34.044
Really, like, journalism has always been hard to monetize, and so I think that's why, like, I think sometimes people think about, like, grant-funded things as, like, I don't know, we're so business-oriented a society, it's like those are, those are failures.

321
00:52:34.084 --> 00:52:47.404
Like, everything should, should be able to stand on its own legs and be, like, revenue generating. Yeah. But truthfully, like, I don't know if journalism can be profitable in, in the world.

322
00:52:47.444 --> 00:52:57.024
Like, I don't know, like, if that's, you know, gonna happen. And I think we've always relied on other businesses, namely advertising- Yeah... and classifieds, and things like that.

323
00:52:57.084 --> 00:53:06.284
But we've always relied on other revenue streams and then kind of, like, sup- you know, kind of put our journalism next to it, and that's how we've, we've done the media business for so long.

324
00:53:06.324 --> 00:53:18.014
And so now when you can advertise in such amazing ways online, and you don't need any content around it, right? Like, now advertisers don't need us, and so- Yeah...

325
00:53:18.044 --> 00:53:27.704
there's no need to have that content next to it, and that has really undermined things for us. But either we find, like, another kind of thing to attach ourselves to, right?

326
00:53:27.804 --> 00:53:38.974
Or we admit that, like, this is a valuable thing that we need in society, and- Mm... it's also maybe not profitable. Like, I think, and by profitable, I guess maybe it means, like, asking the end user- Yeah...

327
00:53:38.974 --> 00:53:47.544
to pay for it- Yeah... might not be enough, right? Like, people do pay. Like, I, I pay for a subscription to The New York Times, um, The New Yorker, a couple of other outlets.

328
00:53:47.584 --> 00:53:57.264
But that subscription revenue kind of only goes to the giants now. Yeah. Right? Like, you've probably seen that research. Like, there's a handful of places that get that money, so The New York Times can do that.

329
00:53:57.484 --> 00:54:04.204
Well, even, like- But-... ind- independent creators, I'm usually subscribed to, like, one newsletter at a time, but rarely- Uh-huh... more than one.

330
00:54:04.264 --> 00:54:16.894
Like, maybe, "Oh, now I wanna do this one, so I'm gonna unsubscribe from that one." Yeah. I mean, most of my subscribers are people like my dad, like, and his age, who are, like, really proud of the work- Yeah...

331
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that we're doing as a younger generation of South Asians, and they're, like, supporting the work just out of, like, emotion. It's not because, you know, like, it's not because of the, the access to the content. Yeah.

332
00:54:27.524 --> 00:54:36.484
And so I just think, like, yeah, it's j- it's just, it's always been hard to make money off of journalism. Yeah. You know? That's not new. No.

333
00:54:36.584 --> 00:54:49.432
Speaking of your dad and other people like him, uh, paying for the newsletter, I would love to hear you, just some final notes on, like, the relationship between Central Desi and the audience. Um, and, like-I don't know.

334
00:54:49.512 --> 00:55:00.112
What that looks-- Is it people replying? Is it, like, is it more events? Like, how-- what does that relationship look like, and how would you like it to evolve? Yeah. I really, like, I want...

335
00:55:00.252 --> 00:55:08.752
I think email is a very intimate medium, right? Mm-hmm. Like, we're getting into people's inboxes, and I want them to feel like that email came from a person that they can talk to.

336
00:55:08.852 --> 00:55:20.012
And so I encourage folks to hit Reply, and if they do, we converse with them. We talk to them, you know. We share things with them. We ask them for their ideas. We do reader surveys all the time.

337
00:55:20.092 --> 00:55:30.542
We have done audience research interviews where we ask people if we can interview them, and we really try to understand how to meet their needs. So deep engagement is a part of the differentiator- Mm-hmm...

338
00:55:30.662 --> 00:55:39.692
of the newsletter model. You know, like, this is what makes us a little bit different than a traditional newsroom is that we are wanting to be in direct conversation with our community all the time.

339
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Same thing on social media.

340
00:55:41.612 --> 00:55:52.052
We're also getting ourselves out into the community at events, or we're putting things on where people can come and meet with us, and making sure that there are those opportunities to constantly have feedback.

341
00:55:52.632 --> 00:55:58.952
Um, you know, for one, it's just a great way to generate story ideas and to make sure that the stuff that we're doing resonates with our audiences.

342
00:55:59.472 --> 00:56:07.732
Um, but we also feel like we're not just, um, out there sharing information. We're, we're trying to build community, right? Like- Mm-hmm...

343
00:56:08.132 --> 00:56:20.212
um, one thing we didn't really get into in this conversation today is that South Asian community is actually really divided. Like, not everybody who is in part of that demographic sees themselves as part of...

344
00:56:20.252 --> 00:56:28.872
they see themselves as South Asian. Mm-hmm. They might see themselves as just Indian or just Pakistani, and, and those identities. There's also Bangladeshis and Nepalis and all sorts of folks.

345
00:56:28.932 --> 00:56:34.112
But, like, there's a lot of division- Yeah... in those communities. There's a lot of religious differences.

346
00:56:34.212 --> 00:56:46.252
Like, folks will often gather in, um, religious spaces, and so your whole community may be the people you go to temple with or to the mosque with, and you might not see the other as part of your community.

347
00:56:46.292 --> 00:56:58.652
So there is also this work that we're trying to do to try and help strengthen the fabric of South Asians and, like, help them feel connected to one another. That tapestry. You know, there is...

348
00:56:59.272 --> 00:57:05.372
Yeah, and there's so much we do have in common, and, and yet, like, there are a lot of nuanced differences.

349
00:57:05.472 --> 00:57:19.452
So there is some, some work that we're doing just to kind of connect folks and create a space that is inclusive, that allows anybody who identifies as South Asian to feel welcome in those spaces, whether they attend a religious space or not.

350
00:57:19.492 --> 00:57:28.812
You know, just kind of, like, trying to create, like, a more, like, open, neutral, like, space for the community ga- to gather, both virtually and in person.

351
00:57:28.852 --> 00:57:33.942
And so that engagement with the, um, the newsletter audience is a huge part of that. Yeah.

352
00:57:33.952 --> 00:57:43.552
And that's why even though we're relatively small in our subscriber numbers, I think that, you know, the, the, we differentiate ourselves a little bit in how deeply we're engaging with that community.

353
00:57:44.072 --> 00:57:56.002
Yeah, which again goes back to this newsletter being something with the goal of creating culture, creating community, creating this forward-looking culture. Um, very admirable. Uh, okay, last question.

354
00:57:56.592 --> 00:58:02.832
What kind-- Do you have any advice for anybody who is, you know, working on a newsletter or trying to create this, like,

355
00:58:03.932 --> 00:58:13.402
original, really, like, you know, meaningful type of content, um, to, [laughs] to use the word, to use the flattening word? Uh, yeah, do you have any advice you'd give to people?

356
00:58:13.532 --> 00:58:24.132
I think you need to kind of figure out what it is that-- what's, like, kind of the niche that you want to, to write about. Like, why, why you, right? Like, think of it sort of almost like a Venn diagram.

357
00:58:24.192 --> 00:58:33.142
There's, like, you and, like, your whole person and, like, the stuff that you can write about, and then the, the gaps that you identify in, in, like, what people are not writing about.

358
00:58:33.161 --> 00:58:43.352
And, like, where is the sweet spot where, you know, other people are maybe not necessarily writing about this topic or, you know, covering it in a way that you could?

359
00:58:43.472 --> 00:58:55.011
And then your personal, like, whatever you're bringing to it, um, is, is so unique, and so now you're offering something really valuable and, and, like, differentiated in the market.

360
00:58:55.072 --> 00:59:02.172
You know, there's so many newsletters, and I know a lot of people just start newsletters 'cause it's a way to kind of, like, start writing. Um- Mm-hmm...

361
00:59:02.182 --> 00:59:11.772
you know, but if you're trying to turn it into something bigger, I think you really need to kind of find that, that, like, sweet spot between the gap and, eh, some sort of gap that you're filling for the audience.

362
00:59:11.852 --> 00:59:22.552
And then, um, you know, like, you're bringing something really valuable to fill that gap. Um, and that's different for everybody, and I'm not just talking about that in kind of the context in which Central Desi lives.

363
00:59:22.612 --> 00:59:28.792
But it could be, like, a, a newsletter about your work and, and, you know, it could be a totally different context.

364
00:59:28.892 --> 00:59:39.282
But, um, you happen to be the one person that's, like, writing about whatever it is that you do, and, and people will find value in it. And then maybe the second piece of it is a voice. Like- Mm...

365
00:59:39.792 --> 00:59:52.972
learning to write with a voice and a personality that people really, you know, connect with. Again, email is a really intimate, like, uh, medium, and, you know, when I write an email to a friend, it reads like a letter.

366
00:59:53.052 --> 01:00:02.712
Like, in a way, your newsletters also have to read that way. They have to read in a way that they connect with the person, so that person actually opens it. How many newsletters do you get, you know, that you never open?

367
01:00:02.922 --> 01:00:09.262
[laughs] Like, I'm so guilty of that too. Like, it's hard. [laughs] There's so much stuff to consume, especially in your inbox. Yeah.

368
01:00:09.272 --> 01:00:19.772
So you have to kind of work to build trust with your audience and make them want to open that, that newsletter. Yeah. Uh, great advice. Um, all right. Where should people go to find your work?

369
01:00:21.412 --> 01:00:32.832
You should go to centraldesi.beehiiv.com. Uh, we're really proud to be on Beehiiv. It's a wonderful platform. It's been a good community. So, um, yeah, that's where we are. Perfect. Thank you. All right.

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This has been the Creator Spotlight Podcast. Our guest today has been Amreen Ali, and I have been your host, Francis Sear. I'll see you next week.

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