Young people do not trust mainstream media. When you feel like you can't trust anything, it's very hard to feel like you can make a difference.
The goal is providing accurate information, but I know the key goal is this, like, survival-based goal, right, is monetization. What they are selling is trust.
They're not gonna get the brand partnerships, they're not gonna bring in the monetization without a highly engaged audience who trusts what they say. The two are more connected than people give them credit for.
Think a lot of creators are focused on the money, but a lot of times the skills help you produce the money in the future. I would love to hear a misconception about creators doing news content.
I think there is a misconception news creators want to be journalists. What we have heard loud and clear from creators is they don't want to be journalists.
The information that people get on the internet directly impacts action. The way to have impact is by supporting and investing in the people who are actually delivering the information.
Welcome back to the Creator Spotlight podcast.
My name is Francis Zehrer, and today we're speaking with three folks involved in News Creator Corps, a new fellowship program meant to help creators learn journalism skills and fight misinformation.
We have one of the fellows from the first cohort, which is wrapping up as we record, the executive director, and one of the board members who is also a creator.
I will introduce them shortly, but first, if you are listening to this before eleven fifty-nine PM on December thirty-first, twenty twenty-five, applications for the News Creator Corps Spring Fellowship, which includes journalism training and a stipend to help your work, applications are still open.
I encourage you to apply, and we will put the link in the show notes. [upbeat music] So I do not usually have this many people on the show.
I would like to briefly introduce all of you so our listeners know who's speaking. We have Rachel Lebdel, the Executive Director of News Creator Corps. Rachel, you have been working in journalism for most of two decades.
Why was this year the time to launch NCC?
When I was thinking about what I wanted to do next and really kind of pulling back the layers of the onion of what I cared about when it came to journalism, it really came down to giving people information that helps them make decisions and live their best lives.
And when I'm being honest and taking a look at how people are getting information, a lot of that is coming from creators who do not have a background in journalism or comms.
And so craving impact in this moment of s- of upheaval in, in media, I really felt like the way to have impact is by supporting and investing in the people who are actually delivering the information to regular people who need it.
And so we thought that this was the right moment to, uh, to jump in, and I think we were right. You, you are certainly right. [laughs] I think we'll get into a lot of that over the next hour or so.
Uh, we also have Katie Grossbard, a creator, strategist, and attorney. You are on the NCC board, but first, can you tell us a little bit about your work as a creator? Sure.
It's so nice to hear Rachel talk about it because it's really validating. I kind of stumbled into doing this. Um, I got involved in nonprofits and some other work before I went to law school, and then
kind of just started posting things that I cared about. And because the pandemic happened and because the twenty-twenty election was going on, people were really invested in learning information as it was happening.
People wanted news as soon as they could get it, or they didn't wanna turn on their TV, and it felt much more palatable to get it on their devices.
And so I started noticing that people were really paying attention and wanting me to continue doing what I was doing. And it's wild that that was five years ago.
Um, but yeah, I really started kind of doing content creation in this space to talk to my friends and my family about things that I cared about, and then it just kind of took off from there.
And for you, Instagram is really the key platform, right? You've got two hundred and fifty-five thousand there. You don't really do much on the other platforms, correct? Yes. I just stay in my lane right now.
[laughs] Stay in your, in your Reels tab, maybe. Um, [laughs] uh, what, what brought you to NCC? What brought you to being on the board? Um, did Rachel approach you? What are you doing for NCC, being on the board? Yeah.
Rachel approached me and, um, and Courier that I had been involved with prior to that as well. We had had a conversation.
Um, and I think the, the importance of it, it kind of goes back to what I was saying about it being validating.
It's there are a lot of people that are doing free labor, quite frankly, um, and doing it because they really want their communities to be informed and to be able to make decisions for their own families, for their own communities to make them better and more sustainable and more effective.
And we're in a time when so many people are getting information through these sources, and to be able to make sure that they are understanding how to do the research and how to convey that information properly, that's what I think our role on, on the board is, is to really come up with the, the means and the tactics of how to ensure that that happens.
We will get back into all of that shortly. Finally, we have Danielle Dzire Corbett, who is a creator and part of the first NCC cohort of twenty creators. Danielle, your primary medium as a creator is podcasting.
You're the creator of multiple podcasts, including The Thought Card, Road Trip Ready, and Women of Color Podcasters. You have been working as a creator for most of a decade at least, from what I understand.
Can you describe what your work as a creator looks like today? Yeah. So I would say I wear primarily two different hats at the moment.
So I'm a travel creator with a personal finance and cultural lens, so that's The Thought Card. And I also curate grant opportunities for creators as well.
Um, and I have a platform called Grants for Creators, which is actually how I discovered NCC, was just sourcing through fellowship opportunities for creators. Uh, and I saw the application, I was likeThis feels like me.
Like, you're talking to me, and, um, the rest is history. Hmm. Why did you start podcasting? From what I understand, you start doing The Thought Card in August, I believe it is, of 2018.
Had you done any sort of creator or media work before that? What brought you into this? I'm a reluctant writer.
Um, and a long time it took me to, like, actually step into that role of like, wow, you're a creative person. Um, I'm also a Virgo, so very analytical as well. But, um- Myself as well.
[laughs] Okay, so we, we understand each other immediately. Um, at the time, I actually started in 2015, and I just had a lot of thoughts, which is why my platform is called The Thought Card.
I had a lot of thoughts around I have student loan debt, I wanna travel, I wanna own a house, I wanna have a family one day, I'm broke.
Um, all these things were coming into play, and I also have a very sharing spirit too, where I just wanna share things. A- and I felt like writing at the time, 2015, felt like the best way to do it.
Um, during that time I was also listening to podcasts as well, but the tech was clunky. I felt like I just wasn't ready to be on a mic by myself.
So it took me a couple years to build the confidence to get into podcasting, but when I did, it was literally read the blog post out loud. Um, and that's really how I got started.
So started messy, but it's definitely carried my career over the last 10 years. How would you define the term creator? This is, this is one of my great themes. I like to get really pedantic about this.
Um, Danielle, let's start with you. How would you define the term creator? All right. So I'm gonna take a stab at it. I have my, I have my notes written down.
Um, I would say a creator is someone who uses their talents, their skills, their life experiences to create something, insert blank here, that could look like a podcast, a blog, a newsletter, art, music.
It's such a wide, a wide variety of creations, but technically I would say it's someone who's using the gifts, the skills, the experience that they have to do something and create something, a community even as well.
Hmm. Okay. Katie, how about you? Yeah, I mean, my, my answer's a little bit similar. I think I would just say that a creator is someone who lives life out loud and shares it in some capacity.
I think that we all have a way of experiencing things that is unique to our own circumstance, and there's a lot of value in sharing that with other people.
Because I've found so often that even if I post something that is,
is, it feels really niche and really like I must be the only person in the world going through this or thinking about it this way, um, it's not true, and it ends up forming so much connection that way, which can only benefit, you know, everyone involved if it's done in the right way.
So yeah, living life out loud and sharing it. And Rachel, finally, how do you define the term creator?
I agree with what both Danielle and Katie have said, and I would add that I think it involves serving a community in some way, shape, or form.
Us- I think the most typical way we see that manifest is through the creation of content, um, the creation of something that is handed out.
Um, but I also think that it can just be someone who is important in a community, um, for information, and that could happen in real life.
I think we really assume that creator is happening online, and I think that those same things are happening in so many community spaces offline as well, and I would, I would put them in the creator bucket. Hmm.
Okay, this is th- really interesting. So you guys are all giving this pretty idealistic definition, I would say. This connection with community, this, you know, offspring of creativity. I would...
T- to, you know, put another angle on here- There's a bad version too. There's a bad version too. What's the bad version? Well, you have to say it now.
Well, I mean, 'cause I think, uh, you can take mine and then twist it and make it the bad version. I mean, living life out loud and sharing it with people, if you have really awful- Hmm...
standpoints in this world or you're, you know, racist, homophobic, sexist, whatever it is, and you choose to live that version of life out loud, that can also be extremely harmful.
Um, and we have to be a very, aware of that and, and call that out when we see it. That's, okay, so that's not where I was going with this at all.
What I was gonna say was the edge here, that it's like in the context that we're talking about, especially in relation to journalists, right?
I would say to frame the rest of this conversation, a creator is somebody who is not paid by a larger organization necessarily, but they are producing media for distribution on social media platforms, and this goes back to like YouTube being the origin of the wo- the, you know, when I say creator, I, I really mean content creator, right?
Like, that's, that's the way I use it here. And that originates with YouTube. In 2011, they started calling a specific sort of YouTube user who was uploading content to the platform a creator, right?
So like, the way I approach it here and the way I wanna approach it in this conversation is that a creator is somebody who is making content for platforms versus a journalist, because we're talking about journalists and creators here.
A journalist is somebody who produces content for a media company, they're employed by that media company, right? Not nec- this, we, we could really get pedantic here, but I think that's the definition here.
But I like the definitions you all gave, which illustrate like this, the NCC's definition of creator, right?
Which is somebody who is making a positive contribution to their community, which might be through these digital platforms. Um... I get asked a lot about, um, how, what are, what are we, what are we doing here?
When we s- when we have our name being News Creator, like what do we mean by that?
And there's a lot of people making things on the internet, and I think when people hear content creator, the first thing they think is of a woman who is selling sweaters on Amazon, and really like, you know, what, uh, what we would call an influencer.
Hmm. We focus a lot on information-focusedContent creators, which is a very different world.
And I think that one of the reasons why all three of our answers were pretty vague and wide-reaching is because I like a lot of different types of content creation- Mm-hmm...
but NCC is really only focused on, like, one specific slice of that. Mm-hmm. It's, it's funny. I might be too far down the rabbit hole here. I think I definitely am in that I...
This is my job to think about this every week, but, like, the way you just said the kind of, you know, dated version of wh- wh- I would call an influencer, the woman selling sweaters on Amazon, right? Like,
I- to me, that's, like, maybe what I thought it was eight years ago. And again, I think probably- Mm-hmm... most people out there maybe still have that image.
Um, but this is a conversation I've had on here a few times, which I probably shouldn't linger on too much, 'cause anybody who's listened to a lot of these episodes will be familiar.
But I like to say that, like, there's no such thing as an influencer. There are just people who may wield influence, who may sell it to companies, right?
And I think that is also related to the f- definition of creator that you all were giving, where it's this person who is involved in their community and influencing their community.
But anyways, I wanna move on from this. Rachel, one more little thing here, though. In the Nieman Lab article about the NCC launch, you say that you have very conservative journalistic values.
Can you describe what that means, what these values are? I would say that when I'm talking about conservative journalistic values, I'm not talking about the conservative to liberal spectrum.
I'm talking about sort of the old-school J-school, um, you don't have opinions on the internet, um, you don't attend protests or marches, um, you're really
interested in being transparent and being as fair as you can, um, to all of your work.
And so, um, you know, spending almost two decades working in very traditional mainstream media outlets, um, and then coming over into this space where
you're, I'm working with people who have opinions on the internet, um, and they have a POV that even if it is rooted in, um, inaccuracy in facts, um, that- that's kind of like a, a big gray area for this, um, for the industry in general.
Um, you know, newsrooms are really unsure what to think about it. Audiences are clearly, um, fine with it, are clearly into... I think they see it as a transparency thing. They know exactly where- Mm...
the creator stands, um, and they really identify with that.
Um, and I think for all of the organizations that are sort of working in and around this space, um, it's definitely one of those gray areas where people are sort of, like, making their way through how they, how they feel about it.
Mm-hmm. So these, you know, conservative J-school, a- again, to underline, conservative is not conservative/liberal, it's just more, like, classic values of, of journalism.
So that's really what NCC is aiming to teach in the course, right? So is it, was it an eight- or nine-week course? Can you remind me? It's a nine-week course with one week off, so it's eight- Okay...
lessons in nine weeks. Um, so the answer is both. Um, and one thing that I wanna be really clear about is we are not trying to turn creators into journalists.
What we have heard loud and clear from creators is they don't want to be journalists, they don't want newsroom jobs. Like, that is n- we're not creating a pipeline of creators moving into journalism roles. Mm-hmm.
And we're not even really creating a pipeline of moving them into those classic journalism ethics, um, because for so many of them, they're so far gone.
You know, they're, they're already living in their, in what they have defined for themselves as their own ethics.
We're really just teaching them the tactical skills of fact-checking, sourcing, interviewing, how to think about AI. Can I... Wait, wait, can I, um- Um, yeah... so I, I have a list- Yeah...
I believe, of the, of the different, the eight different lessons. So correct me if any of these are wrong or if, I, I don't know if this is the order they were in. This is from a blog post on the site.
So, how to properly cite sources, how to research and use public records, how to utilize AI effectively and what to watch out for with AI, how to build expert sources within your niche, how to engage with your community thoughtfully, how to partner with newsrooms and organizations, how to think about beat reporting as a creator, business basics and online safety, and finally, what it really looks like to stop misinformation instead of accidentally spreading it.
That's, that's the full course list. Yeah. D- Danielle, are we missing anything? Nope. That sounds right. I have my favorites. I have my favorites for sure. [laughs] Well, that was my next question.
What were your favorites? What were the most impactful and most enjoyable, most like... What, what, which, which of these courses did you gain the most from? Which class?
Yeah, I also wanna, um, just take a second to, like, also reiterate what Rachel's saying, that
I am not a creator who wants to become a journalist by any means, but there are so many journalistic skills, and traits, and thought processes, and mindset shifts that I sometimes wish that I had that, like, minor in JV when I'm out in the field working.
And it's not often that there's a program out there that sees the, I would say the marrying of the two together in a way that we can both, we could benefit from all, all spheres.
So immediately when I saw the, the opportunity, I was like, "This is me."
Like, as a travel creator, what I say is what people are searching for on Google, on AI, and they will take what I say, and they will put it in their itineraries, and they will actually go and consider doing that thing.
Um, so it's so important that my website, my content is timely, it's relevant, it's fact-checked.
Like, all of that is so important for me, and there has been times when I've been in previous partnerships years prior, and then a partner is like, "Oh, can youDouble check that. Like, is that date correct?
Or did that person really say that? And I had nothing to stand on because I didn't have those journalistic... I just didn't know where to come from. So I've learned so much.
Some of my favorite sessions was session number one, citing sources right off the gate. I was like, "Boom. I got this down. I understand what that looks like."
And there were lots of different examples in real time across social media platforms and platforms, what that looks like. So day one was really, really important for me.
Also, we had beat reporting, and in particular, that day it was all about powering up your Google searches.
So everyone uses Google, but there's all these little things that we might not be thinking about to get to really very specific searches. Um, so that was really important to me.
And then our recent class about safety, like we were talking about business corporate, S corps and things...
like next-level things that we should be thinking about as not only creators, but also business owners, small business owners.
So I felt su- like so much support, um, and it went way beyond just learning journalism skills and seeing what that looks like. We were able... Also, the homework was really hard and challenging.
[laughs] Um, so that was great. What was the homework? Um, various different types of homework.
For example, one of them was like, you know, show us an example of AI doing misinformation or misuse, and how would you, like, combat that? And I was like, "Oh, gosh, there's so much in travel. Like, where do I start?"
Um, so it was great for you to learn in class, like a college curriculum, like you're learning so much, but for you to also apply that to the work that you're doing day in and day out as a creator as well.
A question for, I'm not sure which one of you will have the better answer here. Maybe both of you will have a good answer. Rachel and Katie, um, eight weeks, there's only so much you can fit in.
Are there any topics that you would have liked to fit into the curriculum that had to be cut and maybe they'll be in a future iteration?
We did a lot of research talking with creators about what kind of support that they need, and the answer was so many things. You know, they need business support, they need technical support, they need legal support.
They need, you know, all of these questions because working independently and essentially working as a startup in a- Mm-hmm...
you know, starting a business in which you are primarily working alone is really, really challenging.
And so the answers we got were very plentiful, and at first was really overwhelming to figure out how we could figure out, um, what they needed the most and what we wanted to put in the class.
And our North Star just kept coming back to misinformation and accuracy.
There's a lot of other courses out there that can teach you how to use a mic properly or, um, you know, legal resources, accounting resources, things like that. Our...
What we could provide in the landscape was this fact-checking and accuracy-building skill set that is just not available anywhere else.
And so as we were putting the course together, our program manager, Anne Marie Duling, who is absolutely brilliant and has done a wonderful, wonderful job with this cohort, um,
that was just the question we kept coming back to, is like what are the main skills that fall under this bucket?
We are doing a winter webinar series for additional questions that we have gotten that we weren't able to cover, um, that is open to the public as well, um, for any creator to participate in.
And those are gonna get into some of those questions, like I'm currently working, um, with a lawyer to, um, develop a, um, an IP and partnership, um, webinar for navig-navigating partnership contracts.
So we know that there's additional things that they need, and we're interested in how we can support those, but our main focus goes back to that, that fact-checking. Hmm.
And I think one of the things that I would just add is that it's... obviously it's a, it's a short period of time. It really does end up being eight weeks of, of lessons.
Um, and there's such density in the space that there's an endless amount of things that could be covered for sure.
But I think one of the things that I would also point out is that there are a lot of creators in this space who also have day jobs. Mm-hmm. And so the amount that you can pack in, and also s- I mean, I do.
[laughs] But I think that the packing the information into really, um, like palatable and easy-to-access and like digest and understand all these things in a short amount of time is also really helpful for a lot of people just trying to balance this with other things in their life.
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Um, okay, let's talk about choosing members of the cohort. So the first cohort, 20 creators across 12 states with a combined reach per the NCC newsletter of 1,664,000 across platforms.
That is an average cross-platform following of 83.2 thousand.
Um, you know, and the stated mission of NCC is to combat misinformation, to, I would say to, to put more high-quality information into the overall constantly [laughs] growing pool of information out there.
I would love to hear a little bit about the selection process and kind of some of these like more brass tacks things that go into it.
Like, are you thinking about, "Oh, well, we wanna have some creators with a larger audience because we think that will have a certain impact," versus, "We want some creators with a very precise audience in a very precise community because we think that will have also a very important impact in a different way"?
Long way of asking, tell me about the decision-making process for choosing fellows.
I think especially people who are listening right now and might apply to the next cohort would love to know.Our goal was to get one hundred applications for our first fellowship, and we got one forty-nine.
And so, um, and our fellowship was on- our applications were only open for eighteen days the first time. And so, um, we...
And we got a ton of notes from people who were like, "I missed the deadline," or, "I'm really interested, but I don't think I fit the criteria," um, which immediately gave us,
um, it, like, boosted our confidence that, okay, this is necessary, this is needed. People are really wanting this.
When we were looking at the applications, it was a really time-consuming process because there weren't a lot of black-and-white markers that we were looking for.
We don't put out a, a threshold for audience count because we know that smaller audiences who are highly engaged and perhaps in a community that is underserved by mainstream media or in a local news desert can have just as a, a big of impact as someone who has a half a million followers.
Um, and so we were looking for folks who could really articulate what their role in their community was, why this was important to them, who they work-- who their audience was, who are they serving, what kind of information do they need, um, what they wanted to learn.
We read every single application multiple times. We looked at all of, um, the clips that were sent to us through...
Looking at, um, going through their TikTok channels, looking at how are they engaging with their audience? How are they answering questions?
Um, and really just getting a gut feeling for this person is doing incredible work in this corner of it, of the internet, and I think that our support can, can level them up. Um,
I was planning on taking around fifteen to seventeen people. Like, I was like, "That feels like a good number for our first cohort." And we could not get any lower than twenty. Like, we just fell in love with these,
with these creators and the potential that they had, um, across, across topics.
We also wanted a really diverse class because we wanted them to learn from each other, so we wanted diversity in platforms, diversity in topic areas, in life experiences, in sta- in geographic areas. Um, and really
seeing how, um, they applied what they learned every week in such diverse ways was really validating in that I think having a, having a creator class that, um, is different from each other was really valuable. Mm-hmm.
Danielle, I would love to hear you talk about anything you've learned from your peers, right? You're, you're one of this group of twenty.
Um, besides things you've learned just in the classes from people teaching, tell me what you've learned from peers, any kind of unexpected collaborations or, or learnings that you've gotten from, from your fellow cohort.
Yeah. It's been, it's been interesting 'cause I got really, really sick during the fellowship, um, so that was a little bit of a hiccup. I am better now. Fifteen pounds lighter. Doing well. Please do. Oh my God.
[laughs] Doing well. Um, but, uh, one of the really big moments for me was when a fellow, a fellow actually reached out and was like, "Hey, I see what you're doing with your series.
I would love to connect you with this historical society in Upstate New York where you can potentially go and visit and continue your story." And- Are you talking about James Cave? Yes, yes.
So that was, like, super cool and just... It was-- I felt so seen. Like, and this was right off. Like, this was, like, day two or day three.
So, um, it showed that he took the time to look at what I'm working on, um, and thought through and went through his Rolodex of, like, "Hey, how can I connect Danielle to someone who can further, um, her project?"
So that has been very important. And I also feel like the conversations that we've been having, like, we have some attorneys in, um, in, who are fellows, who, so they'll have different questions.
Um, we have another fellow who asks these, like, amazing questions outside the box, who may challenge us or challenge, like, what's being taught.
So it really pushes you to not just be on autopilot but to really, like, interact, engage, and those friendships are really important. Mm-hmm. Um, okay.
A question I'm gonna ask all three of you, but Danielle, we'll start with you. Sure. So I've heard the idea that journalists work for the guild, right?
Regardless of what publication they work for, there's this common cause, the, you know, this mission to the Fourth Estate to gathering facts, presenting them objectively. This is the higher purpose of journalism, right?
I think with creators, there's no such guild, literally or more, you know, metaphorically. Creators literally work for themselves. They are small businesspeople. They are entrepreneurs, um, to varying degrees, right?
Some people are more collaborative, some people are much more cutthroat, in the arena, as some people like to say, right? Um, I'm curious about this experience for you.
You're just talking about how in the cohort you've been collaborating with people, but have you... Like, what is...
In the sense that journalists work for the guild, and there's this common purpose to society, is that something you have as a creator?
Is that something you've, like, you know, maybe you didn't have at one point, now you do? Talk to me about, about this idea of journalists working for the guild versus creators literally working for themselves.
I actually don't work for myself. I work for my financially savvy travelers. I work for the seventy thousand creators who support my newsletter.
Like, those are the people who keep my lights on, who keep production going, and they're who I, who I'm actually ultimately accountable for.
Sure, there's, like, partners and things like that, but ultimately, I'm here from their...
I'm here f- because of what they're able to, whether it's listen to the podcast or, or read a blog post of mine, like, I am accountable to them.
So I would say my guild is my community, and across platforms, that may look different, but definitely there's someone on the other side who I am thinking about.Emphatic answer.
[laughs] Uh, Katie, I'd like to pass it to you. I think that the... If we take it from a metaphorical perspective, and there's a,
some guild somewhere, um, I think that as you create and as you find people that are collaborative and that work, you know, with you, and where you kind of have the same vision and values for what you're creating and why you're doing it, I think you end up kind of making a guild kind of in your brain of the things that, that fit within that space and the things that fall outside of it.
I think that as someone who grew up with my entire family being in entertainment, I know a lot about actual guilds and, and how they help and how they hurt and all the things.
[laughs] And I think that it would be great if there was a way to have that actually come to fruition for creators that are doing work and could, um, could be seen with the same validity and the same, you know, ac- There's this actual entity that should be valued in that way, um, whether it's actors, writers, or anything else.
But I think that as it stands right now, it's kind of this, like Danielle's talking about, this like self-created, who are you doing this for, and why does it matter, and why do you keep doing it?
And I think for a lot of people that are just starting and really wondering if it's worth it to put this kind of effort into this kind of work when you don't have these big entities that are necessarily supporting you, it's a lot of those conversations with yourself of saying, "Who am I doing this for, and why do I continue to do it?"
And I know that I wake up feeling accountable to myself and also to the people that have relied on me to keep going. Good answer. Uh, Rachel, yeah, to you, especially coming from, you know, so to speak, the guild.
In a way, Katie, what you're talking about reminds me a lot of the concept of, like, your personal board of directors. You find people who share your same values.
And I think that's what we're seeing right now in the creator space is we were talking earlier about how there's all different kinds of creators, and I think when you figure out who you are, who you're working for, what kind of creator, what kind of work that you wanna do, you start to find other people who are similar to you, and you sort of build out these, um, smaller guilds, if you will, um, of people who are doing the same work, um, or similar type work, um, as, as to what you have.
And I think a lot of that comes back to goals. Like, do you... You might not be...
Like, Danielle is not doing the same work as someone on our, in our fellowship program who is focusing on the NBA or on women's health or on weather, um, but their goals are the same.
They want to give people accurate information. And I think finding those people with similar goals is what we're seeing when it comes to communities of creators. Hm.
As an aside, it's interesting that you say, like, the goal, the goal is providing accurate information, right? Because I think that is the goal.
But I know, and I have a different product here with Creator Spotlight, right?
I know that sort of by revealed preferences, right, by what people click on and engage with the most, the core goal for most of the people in our audience, creators in our audience, is monetization, right?
Like, I- we've tested are they after monetization or af- are they after growth? Are they after, you know, advice on how to produce higher quality content? They're all after monetization, right?
So to me, what I've seen is that, like, they, they, they do care about these things, right? But, like, the key goal is this, like, survival-based goal, right?
And that's, I think, why I was framing it in terms of working for themselves, right? Because it is this, the bitter attention economy arena, right?
Um- Well, one of the things that I think that creators fundamentally understand is that what they are selling is trust, is that their relationships with their community is everything. Mm-hmm.
They're not gonna get the brand partnerships, they're not gonna bring in the monetization without a highly engaged audience who trusts what they say. Mm-hmm.
And so I, I've been very impressed with the creators who are very clear-eyed that if they mess that up, the rest of the stuff goes away. And so I do think... I mean, obviously everyone needs to pay the bills.
You need to cover rent, you need to do all of the things that are, um, that allow us to be on this podcast today. But, um, I think the two are more connected than people give them credit for. It's a great answer.
I agree. Uh, I do want to ask, too, uh, as we move off this guild conversation, you said when we first met that this group has been one of the most engaged of any group that you've trained, right?
Any, in, in your journalism career.
So tell me a little bit about what's been different in training this group of creators versus any time that you've been involved in training journalists, whether they're early career or, or later in their career, um, in, in your career.
The creators that have been in our inaugural class, and I would also throw in in some of the events that we have done, um, last week we did an in-person public records training at a bar in Philadelphia.
I have never seen people take notes the way that these people were taking notes at a bar during public records training.
Um, I think that what we have done, and I give all of the credit to Program Manager Anne Marie Dooling for this, is making everything immediately applicable. These are thing...
We know that content creators have to create things every single day in order to stay up on the algorithms, in order to serve their communities.
And so we wanted to give them something that they could do later that day, that they could do tomorrow, and, you know, they could get 1% better every single day. And so I think that-When they saw, oh, I can do this.
This isn't hard, this isn't a long-term thing. I'm not learning, like, some mathematical theory that I need to fully grasp. I can apply this right away. I think it really got them bought in. Um, and
I also think we brought in great trainers. Um, you know, I would defer to Danielle to speak more about why, you know, why the class found them engaging. Um, but, you know, these are folks who applied for the program.
They actively wanna be there. They actively wanna get better, and that is what came through in so much of the applications that we read, um, was this, this strong desire to continually improve.
Uh, Danielle, do you wanna speak to that? Why, why [laughs] some of these courses were, were so engaging? Yeah. Um, I think the trainers were incredible.
They did not assume that we knew certain, like, lingos or things like that.
Like, we broke it down to the basics, and we built the foundation where week after week they would reference things that we learned, like, in the other, couple weeks ago. So that was really, um, really impactful.
In terms of, like, what I'm doing, 'cause a lot of what, like, podcast production is, like, I'm gathering all the things now. I have to travel and I have to come back to put everything together.
So I've been going back through the, uh, the course material, through the slides, through the guides that we're given to be like, "How, again, how do we cite this?" Or, or, "How did we talk about this again?"
So it's like a living guide for us that it's so hard for us to piece together on the internet, but because we had the training, we could reference it, go back, and we could apply it to the work that we're doing today or tomorrow.
I think that is so valuable, and it's something that I'm gonna continue to tap into, you know, year after year after year. Mm-hmm.
Uh, so what I was referencing a little bit ago too about how what I see in our audience at Creator Spotlight is people are really after monetization. Um, Danielle, historically in your work as a creator, have you...
What, what have your most pressing challenges been? Has it been distribution? Has it been production? Has it been monetization? That trust-building and audience development? Something else?
I think 2025 has been an anomaly where for me, monetization has definitely been more of a highlight for me. Um, there's a lot of reasons why, like just socioeconomical, political issues for 2025.
But I think, I think what has been challenging for me previously has been storytelling and that journalism. My series is, a lot of it is narrative-based, but I'm speaking to experts. I'm, I'm att- going to museums.
I'm attending seminars. And so much of, um, the partnerships I have really rely on my storytelling ability. So that took a lot to, a lot of trial and error to kind of find my voice.
Uh, so that, to me, was what opened up partnerships. That w- that opened up different monetization opportunities when I honed on my skills.
Think a lot of creators are focused on the money, but a lot of times the skills produce, help you produce the money in the future. Precisely. Uh, so Rachel, to you.
The fellowship includes opportunities for paid collaborations, I understand, with some publishing partners. Can you describe what that looks like, how that works?
We know that there are a lot of organizations, whether they're newsrooms or nonprofits or, um, uh, you know, even platforms themselves, who want to get in on the creator game.
It's, like, kind of the hot thing right now, and most of them have no idea where to start.
And so I had a lot of conversations, mostly with newsrooms, 'cause that's where my background and my connections are, um, for our inaugural class around partnering with our creators.
And as anyone who launches anything new knows, there were a lot of growing pains. There... You know, partnering creators and newsrooms, um, in a,
in a way that they have not worked together before opens up all h- all sorts of questions, you know, around contracts, around payment, around IP, around, um, uh, oversight and editing.
Um, and so it definitely was a learning experience, I think, for everyone involved. And we had some that were huge successes, and we had some that were a little bit more challenging.
And so we're definitely taking a look at this publishing partnership aspect of the program as we go into 2026, and we plan to do two more trusted creator fellowships.
Um, one of the things that we're seeing that is hugely valuable, I think, to the creators is, um, organizations that have resources.
And so what we have found to be really, really successful is, let's say it's a newsroom or a nonprofit or it could be, like, an organization that collects, like, science materials like Sci-Line, um, where you can, um, give creators some of these materials.
And, you know, you walk them through how to use a database. They make a video. They talk about the database. They might point people to it. Um, and kind of providing resources seems to be a, a n- a nice way to partner.
I'm very curious what other ways we can establish partnerships moving forward.
I think that this is something that we have not figured out, that I don't think really anyone in the industry has figured out in a meaningful way, um, because there all, are all of these questions.
And it's something that we're doing research into too. Um,
we are currently surveying newsrooms and creators on the issues or questions they've had with, um, with partnerships, and we wanna be a, be a guide for best practices or just lessons learned in this space.
Um, so yeah, I would say it was definitely the most challenging part of this, um, inaugural fellowship class and something that I'm gonna be spending a lot of time on as we get ready for the next one.Hmm.
Danielle, to that point of, like, having more resources behind you, having access to a large organization's resources, is that something where, like, you could see yourself producing a limited series with some, let's say
it's a traditional media company, and they have all this, this, this archive or something that you could work with, right? Is, like, that... Is that something that you're interested in as a creator that you are after?
Absolutely. A lot of the series that I do, I have all these little series comes from just a string of thread that I'm pulling. I have one question, and that question leads to creating something really spectacular.
So absolutely. Like yesterday we met with one of the partners with a thorough walk- walk through.
We were able to ask questions, and I immediately knew exactly I have an episode that I wanna work on, and I could pull exactly from here, and they made it so easy and so accessible for me.
Um, so these are things that I probably would not have heard about at all, um, in my creator, you know, day-to-day life. So having that connection point is great.
And also having NCCs, like, trusted, like, "Hey, we trust these guys." Like, "Hey," like, "we work with them." Like, that gives you a level of confidence where you don't feel like, "Ugh, I don't really know," you know?
Um, very helpful. Is that, like, maybe a goal of this program to have, like, you know, like, Michelin stars, say, the NCC seal of approval that you could have as a creator, like, you know, in your LinkedIn bio, whatever?
Well, as of Friday at noon, Danielle will officially have the NCC badge. There we go. Um, I designed it. [laughs] It's beautiful.
And, um, so yes, we are, like, creating a certification process where you are a creator who has been through our program, you've received this training, you kind of have our stamp of approval that accuracy and fact-based reporting is important to you.
The publishing partners that we have talked to have talked about this a lot, that they feel like sourcing creators and knowing who to trust, who's gonna turn out to be great, who's not, feels really overwhelming. Hmm.
So we do think that there is value in helping our creators stand out in that way.
I also think on the flip side of what Danielle is talking about is us signing off on resources and on partners and, you know, these people get what you're trying to do. Like, I've already had a conversation with them.
Now I'm gonna introduce you to them. Um, that is the part that I wanna grow next year.
I don't know exactly what that's gonna look like, but continuing to provide resources, whether or not it's, you know, um, directly relatable or something they would use right away.
Like, yesterday in our, um, in our team conversation, I said, "Hey, I don't really, um... This was shared by someone I trust, but here's an accounting firm for tax season that specializes in creators."
Uh, you know, just kind of picking up all of these pieces around the internet from having conversations and bringing them all together, um, to these people who primarily work solo.
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[swishing] Okay, in just maybe a couple sentences,
inasmuch as you guys have learned about this over the course of this and speaking to newsrooms, speaking to creators, I would love to hear a misconception about creators doing news content, and Katie, we'll start with you.
I think this will... Actually, my answer will harken back to something that we said earlier, which is I think there is a misconception that news creators want to be journalists. Hmm.
And I think that's something that we had to think about and how to kind of thread that needle of there can be some feisty people on the internet who make a lot of assumptions. And
one of the things I've seen quite often is if you share something that is, like, breaking news,
and you source it, you say where it's coming from, there will still be people that come at you and they're like, "Well, you didn't actually research this," or, "You didn't actually do the work to uncover this breaking thing.
You're not a journalist." I don't wanna be a journalist. Never claimed to be, never went to journalism school. So I think one of them would be that.
And then I think the other misconception that I would say is that it doesn't take a lot of work. I think there are some people who...
It's, it's both sides of that, honestly, 'cause sometimes it goes to your benefit, and sometimes it doesn't. Some people think you just
wake up and these young kids, they know how to work this phone, and it's really easy, and it doesn't require a lot of research or a lot of understanding what's going on.
And then on the other side, there are actually people who think it takes so much effort and so much time and, oh my God, how do you do anything else in your day? Like, this must take all of your time.
So I think both those misconceptions are interesting to play with. Uh, Danielle, how about you? What a great question.
Um, for me, immediately something that came up is, like, during one of our training sessions, we talked about how, like, if you make a mistake, if something happens, what do you do?
[laughs] And I think a lot of creators are kind of like, "Ugh, I just ghost for my people for a while," or, "I come back with, like, a sassy response or something like that." Or a note app apology, perhaps.
Oh, right, or a ChatGPT something, right?
[laughs] Um, so in that conversation, like, we really worked on, like, our mindset that also that we can, we can retract, we can apologize, we can be forthcoming with our audience.
That transparency again, why they trust us so much, right? Um, so for me, that humanized a lot of the work that I'm doing- Hmm... too, to understand, like, oh, I don't have to be a superhero. Like, I-...
can and will make mistakes, and here's how I can tactfully approach them. So yeah, it was really impactful for me, for sure. That's awesome. Uh, Rachel, how about you?
One of the misconceptions that I have heard while talking about this work at, like, happy hours and stuff is that every creator who is, like, information-based is being paid by dark money, and they all have, like, some secret agenda.
Um, and, you know, they're really, like, out to, to do something, something specific. And I, I think that the secret agenda is that they just want people to have information.
[laughs] And it's very, it's very funny to me when I hear these sorts of arguments around creators because creators are some of the most transparent information sharers that we have. Mm-hmm.
Most of them talk about where they make their money, they talk about how they make their money, they talk about where they're getting their...
you know, citing their sources, where they're getting the information that they're sharing from you. Um, and it's, uh, it's just... yeah, it's a fascinating misconception.
Well, to, to that point, I mean, to generalize, let's... 99.9% of creators, that is true, right?
But then there have been a couple pretty marquee stories about, you know, funding that wasn't necessarily disclosed, um, across the political spectrum. But we don't need to linger on that. I, I do agree...
[laughs] I do agree with you that, like, for 99.9% of creators, it's, it's just people making stuff, and maybe they're not even making any money and they're just trying to get information out there. Um, okay.
When applications for the first cohort of NCC launched in early September, the press release on the organization website was titled News Creator Corps Launches Pilot Program to Train Content Creators to Fight Misinformation.
So that's sort of the stated goal right there.
And in reading that, you know, my thought was, "Okay, it seems like the goal here is just basically to increase the quantity of high-fidelity information going out into the great sloppy mass of information there is out there right now."
That's correct. It's, it's basically to increase the volume of high-quality information, right? Yeah. We know that the information that people get on the internet directly impacts action.
You know, Danielle talked a lot, a little bit about this earlier with travel. Um, we see it so much in parenting. You know, you're seeing a- Hmm. Yeah... um, you're seeing an Instagram post that, um...
I like to tell the story about how, um, my husband went in to my son's room at, like, 10:30 at night or something before we were going to bed, and I was like, "What are you doing?"
And he was like, "I'm gonna go turn off the nightlight. I saw an Instagram post that it can hurt his eyes." And I was like, "I'm pretty sure that's not true, but, um, okay. Just, like, please don't wake him up."
And so the... I... It doesn't really matter if it's true or not. Like, the, the idea is that what you put out there will change the way that someone does something- Hmm... um, no matter how big or how small.
And I think that when there's so much misinformation and disinformation in the world, and you get overwhelmed and you don't know what to trust, whether it's, like, a Disney recommendation or a food recommendation or it's, you know, who to vote for, like, something that, like, feels more serious, when you feel like you can't trust anything, it's very hard to be civically engaged.
It's very hard to feel like you can make a difference in... that you can make a right decision for yourself or, like, within your community.
And so what we wanna do is increase the amount of accurate information so that people can have faith in what they are reading online or what they're listening to or, or whatever, um, because we need...
when they stop trusting everything, it, it sort of, like, impacts it across the spectrum. Hmm. I, I agree. I think the, like, uh, the fact that...
you know, just the, the tiny thing, whether or not it, it actually has any damaging effects, it like, it, it still has an effect is, is a really good point.
Um, on the other side of, you know, putting out more high-quality information, I also am curious about the idea of literally fighting misinformation, right?
So I've seen some people in various niches, subject matters, subject areas, right? Like, people who are, you know, stitching videos or, you know- Mm-hmm... remixing a video and quoting it, and this...
it- it's like the first two or three seconds of the, of this video. And maybe you've seen it, it's viral, and they're like, "Hold on. This person's full of shit," right?
And they're just, like, going in on them in this very, like, organic, intense way. And I think that's...
Uh, uh, 'cause sometimes those videos then greatly outperform the original video, and I think that's another really [laughs] compelling way.
I don't know if it's what you are doing with NCC, um, but I'm curious if that's something that you would even consider putting into these programs. Like, c- I think there's, like- Yeah, it's-... that's a way people...
Yeah, go ahead. Yeah, it's definitely part of the program, and Danielle can speak to this a little bit more. We... It's... We talked a lot about it with AI in our, in our inaugural class.
Like, how do you call out something that is AI that is making its way around your, your corner, your niche? Um, and a lot of our creators did that that week.
You know, they found something that was going around, and they either commented on the post or they made their own stitched post about it.
Um, and we actually have an event in late January about misinformation and extremism, and how do you call it out in a way that is safe for you- That's a big thing... and helps your community?
And I think there's a balance there that is, like, really, really important to get right. And so we are doing, um, we're doing a whole workshop around how, how do you call out misinformation?
But I would 100% say that that is part of our mission, is f- is supporting creators as they figure out the best way to do that.Danielle, is this something you're engaged in or interested in engaging in? Yes, absolutely.
I have a really quick example. So like I mentioned, my s- my series A Deeper Look, we are pulling stories all across the country of African American heritage and culture.
So I was like, "Let me go into this travel AI tool that's like at the top of Google and see Vermont, what's going on in Vermont? What are the, you know, African American history sites that I could check out?"
Typing in, and then it's literally like a bunch of hotel links, and it's like hiking trails and nothing. Meanwhile, I did this last summer where there were like...
There's actually a Vermont African American heritage trail with over 20 sites.
So that to me, like bolstered like what I'm doing because like you just can't take what AI says and be like, "Oh, there's nothing in Vermont there." Mm. Like, that's not true.
So that was a great example of like how I am literally fighting misinformation through my travel content. I, I mean, I can see the Instagram Reel now of like- [laughs]...
of like I, I looked up, like I looked this up on ChatGPT, and, and it... look what it served me. And then it's like, "Well, actually," and it's like you at the blackboard pointing to the thing or whatever. Yeah.
I would do numbers. Um, okay, let's talk a little bit about post-cohort.
So Rachel, first for you, are you tracking in any way, like the impact that these, the, that the coho- that the fellowship will have on people in the cohort? We are. We are tracking some metrics. Um,
one of them that we are tracking is their confidence in, um, their confidence in their ability to source properly, to give accurate information.
Um, we're also doing this little fun thing where we gave them a test on the first day, and we're giving them a test on the last day, and we're expecting that the scores will grow up, or go up.
But, um- No pressure, Danielle... I guess, [laughs] I guess to be seen on Friday. But, um, one of the challenges that I'm thinking through as executive director is how, how do we measure this?
You know, if your goal is accurate information, safer platforms, fighting misinformation, they're...
It's, it feels really big, and I think as we continue to move forward, and especially as we, I think, double down on some core beliefs that NCC cares deeply about, like underserved communities, local news deserts, really getting into the areas where we feel like we can have more impact, um,
I'm gonna be spending a lot of the holiday time thinking about, um, you know, how do we... yeah, how do we measure our impact in these places?
Our creators have been, um, so gracious and been saying so many wonderful things about the program. Um, but I would like to figure out a way that we sort of make that a little bit, um, harder data.
Well, be- besides data, one thing you have, right, is the Collective, which I don't know exactly what this is. It's, you know, capital C Collective here.
It's the post-fellowship community for the Trusted Creator Fellows. I don't know if this is a Slack group, a Discord, whatever. Uh, tell us a bit about this and how that will serve people after this. Yes.
So when our creators graduate from our fellowship program, they'll be invited to join what I am calling the Collective.
And what that ends up being is still a little bit yet to be seen, but we know that the fellowship and the community that our creators have together has been really valuable for them.
So right now, we have Discord channels, um, that we're, we're all in. We are not shutting those down. Mm.
So they'll be able to stay in those, um, continue to bounce ideas off of each other and like sort of just have each other as resources as that moves forward.
We'll also use that to let them know about opportunities that are coming to us from partners, um, or different resources that were coming. And then it c-... We really want it to be a two-way street as well.
You know, they can surface issues they're having or things that they need from us. I think this could eventually grow into something that is more association-like- Mm...
um, where perhaps they, you know, get discounts from Canva or like whatever it might be, um, and really kind of support them as independent business owners. Um, but, you know, we're in the early stages here. Yeah.
So, but I- I love this... I do think, I do think that it, um, has the potential to just like continue these relationships- Mm-hmm... um, and, um, you know, support people who we think really deserve it. The...
I, I love this.
I've, I mean, I've spoken to people who produce like knowledge products, pro- knowledge products, uh, courses, this kind of thing, and from what I see, you know, 'cause the general consensus on courses on the internet is a lot of them are not that great, right?
And they're kinda scammy.
I think from what I've seen, the ones that people like the most and gain the most from are cohort-based, and there tends to be these, whether it's a Slack or Discord, whatever, there tends to be this place that people can gather afterwards, and it's like they've bonded in this thing, and this culture has been created.
And then they're helping each other after.
Um, Danielle, I would love to hear like how you feel about this and what you are hoping to get out of this and, and, you know, the, the connections and things that this will enable for you afterwards. Yeah.
Well, first and foremost, um, having the stipend is going to allow me to actually continue this series. Oh, which by the way, we never, we never mentioned that before.
So there's a $5,000 stipend for each fellow that's part of this, correct? Yes. For my cohort. For my cohort. Uh, that's all I can say. Uh, thank you. Okay, s- Yes. We... Yes.
At the spring, we are offering it for the spring cohort as well. So, um, if you're applying for our next cohort, you will als- um, selected applicants will also receive a $5,000 stipend. Nice.
Which for a project that was stalled in 2025 is huge. It's huge. So this is back on the roster. We're working on new episodes, so that's very... That's number one.
That's one impact.Um, another impact, I don't know if Rachel you know this, but, like, I've been reaching out to past collaborators who may have ghosted me, and I just said, "Hey, just popping in.
You know, I am an NCC fellow." And the reply is, "Hey, can we get on a call? Can we sign a contract? Can we hop on the series?" Like, there is a level of prestige that you're building, and it's- it really helps us to
just level up as we're reaching out to whether it's, like, you know, partners. Like, I- I definitely feel like saying that I'm a fellow, I was back on their radar seriously- Mm... um, as a result of being accepted.
We love that. We love that, yes. [laughs] We love that. That's awesome. I, I mean, that's kind of some... To me it seems like that's one of the big goals here.
That's one of the big appeals to me when I heard about this was this is a way to lend prestige, lend validity to creators who often are struggling to gain it, right?
Like, if you've got, like, everything, the backing of the NCC, which has the backing of your career and your experience, Rachel, right? Like, that then lends some journalistic...
Even if creators in the cohort don't necessarily wanna be journalists, it lends them some credibility of the journalist. Uh, Danielle, I'd love to get one last word from you here.
When, when I asked that question about journalists serving the guild and, you know, creators literally working for themselves, you were speaking about how you work for this community, these communities you've built, right?
I would love to hear how NCC, your time with these courses and the cohort, has set you up to better serve these communities that you've built. Yeah.
You know, I think this also serves as a tip for any applicants, um, since I know creators intimately very well. I feel like a lot of creators, they're like, "Hey, I just talk about destinations," the travel creator.
Or, "Oh, I just talk about games and game reviews." So it feels like surface level, like what we're doing is just sharing, sharing. Mm.
But I don't feel like sometimes creators, like, understand the sharing of information actually impacts the viewer or the listener.
So NCC did a great job with, for me personally, looking at the application, I was like, "Oh, yes, this is... I am doing this."
Like, f- firstly, number one, I'm doing this, and number two is, like, I identified my gaps immediately.
I knew exactly and I, you know, went back to my Rolodex thinking about partners and what, what they were missing and h- you know, citation stuff that I probably did wrong, uh, before.
Um, so that to me, that really is really important. I think creators are very rigid. Um, I think people think we're fluid, but I think we're rigid in how we see ourselves.
And sometimes words like misinformation feels like bigger words that... But we're actually doing it day to day, right? We're actually fighting misinformation day to day. So that to me I feel like is important.
So think open, and don't get scared by words that you see on paper. Um, and then, like, I'm really excited also to see, like, how this continues to play out in all aspects of my, uh, creator career because I serve...
I'm al- not only creating content, but I also serve creators as well. So the things that I do in that community, so important for information as well. So, um, overall, overall I feel like I've learned so much.
That empowers me as a business owner in the decisions that I make and who I, who I wanna partner and who I wanna talk to next. Amazing.
Well, as we record, it's a couple weeks before this deadline, but this episode comes out on December 23rd, 2025.
And if you are listening and you want to apply for the spring cohort, which I believe kicks off in February, applications are due by 11:59 PM Eastern on December 31st, 2025. So get 'em in.
Danielle, Rachel, Katie, who had to leave early, thank you for joining. This was super fun. Thank you so much for having me. Yes. Likewise. Thank you so much. Mm-hmm. And we'll have the link to the application in the,
uh, in the show notes, but it's also newscreatorcorps, that's C-O-R-P-S,.org. Listener, we will see you next week. [upbeat music] Hi there. My name's Tom, and I'm the producer of the Creator Spotlight podcast.
If you enjoyed that episode, I'd recommend this episode with Liz Kelly Nelson.
Liz is the founder of Project CE, a newsletter and pre-funding collective helping mission-driven journalism creators develop sustainable business models.