I think there's two types of businesses creators can build, and I, I kind of put them in a bucket of, like, a lifestyle business or, like, a scalable venture scale business.
The ones that we're really interested in are the ones that are hyper-focused on taking over the world. The people who are truly thriving, they don't have media businesses, they have a business that started with media.
They have, like, a cult-like following, and they wanna build really scalable, big products. Tell me a bit more about, like, the difference in investing in creators on this scale compared to that much larger scale.
They should have a really strong relationship with a really passionate audience in a pretty specific vertical. Tell me the sort of reasons that people would not want to take this investment.
Yeah, I think I know how to answer that question, which is like- Welcome back to the Creator Spotlight podcast. My name is Francis Zier, and today we're speaking with Billy Parks, a partner at Slow Ventures.
He is specifically on their Creator Fund, a sixty million dollar fund launched at the start of this year to invest in creators.
The fund's first investment was announced in early August, which was two million dollars for Jonathan Katz-Moses, who is a woodworking creator with over five hundred thousand YouTube subscribers and a seven-figure woodworking product business.
We spoke about the fund's four-part investment thesis, how that applies to Jonathan Katz-Moses' business, um, and all sorts of other things about how he thinks about investing in creators, how creators should be focusing on building non-media businesses.
It's a great conversation. Enjoy. The first thing I wanna talk about to contextualize this whole conversation is the Slow Creator Fund's core- Okay...
thesis, to which there are four parts, and I'm gonna read a little summary here. Okay. [laughs] Okay. And you can kinda riff on it. So- Yeah, yeah...
there's, there's the creator, the community, the category, and the scale. And so, um- Sure... I've got a slide that you guys have up here, and, uh- Oh, okay...
it says for creator, you're looking at creators operating as community first entrepreneurs building businesses supported by content and distribution. And I'm gonna have my...
This, this graphic I'm gonna send to my editor. If you're watching this on YouTube, you'll see it on the screen. There's this spectrum from influencer/celebrity to entrepreneur, and you guys- Yeah...
are tossing more towards the entrepreneur end. Um- That's right... and then there's community, which there is a cult-like community around the creator with a specific why or reason for attachment.
And again, there's a spectrum here. Bonded by- Yeah... demographics towards bonded by psychographics, and you want bonded by psychographics. Um, number three, category.
Niche creators who are the person in their growing high LTV, which is lifetime value, vertical with white space for businesses. So spectrum again. Sure. General lifestyle to niche and high value.
You want niche and high value. Finally- Yeah... scale. [laughs] I'll let you talk in a second. Finally- No, it's cool. It's cool...
[laughs] scale, which is creators earning revenue from advertising, which could be platform and brand deals or product sales de-demonstrating the ability to convert.
Um, so the final spectrum here is from zero dollars, not monetizing, to ten million dollars or more. Um, and you guys are looking broadly, just judging by the spectrum, from, like, the one to five million sort of range.
So that's the summary of the thesis. I'll now hand- Yeah... the mic to you. Yeah, yeah. Um, well, thanks for that. Yeah, that's, um, yeah, that's like a highly...
I'll put it into, like, the way I speak best, which is in layman's.
Um, but, like, yeah, no, I mean, I think from a creator standpoint, the fund is really focused on not so much, like, talent or entertainment creators, um, although many talent or entertainment creators have a very strong,
uh, entrepreneurial streak and are very interested in building businesses, so we might be interested in, in that.
But when they, when they have kind of general audiences that love them 'cause they're funny, or love them 'cause they do great pranks, or love them because they are telling stories about their lives, but they don't have, um, it's not very clear that they have, like, a niche- Mm-hmm...
or they're talking... They have a voice of authority in a very specific space,
tho-those are, th-those are the kind of creators we look for, the ones that, that have this kind of voice of authority and, like, are in a specific space versus, like, general entertainment.
Almost like, I think of it as like they have the permission to sell a product, build a product, build a service for their audience because they are [lips smack]
deep in the space, they know the industry, they know the white space in the industry, they, um, they have a voice and authority, so they've been t-telling, uh, stories and, and creating content and teaching people about the specific niche.
And then you're like, "Oh, well, this person is somebody I've been following along on the journey because, like, I'm passionate about that area as well."
And when they build something, whether it's a product or a service, you're like, "Yeah, that's for me." Mm-hmm. You know? Like, they have an inherent understanding of product market fit. So we...
Those are the ones we look for. Um, and I think the idea of them being entrepreneurial is, is very specific. So there's a lot of...
You know, I've met great, um, folks with, with scaled audiences and up-and-coming audiences that, like, really are interested in building media companies and wanna launch studios and that kind of stuff.
And while that's a really interesting business, um, it's not necessarily a business that, that we're, um, like focused on. Mm-hmm.
We're focused on kind of products and services and, and building ecosystems for, with their talent that, uh, drive them into purchase and something that c-can kind of exit one day.
Um, so those are the kind of creators we look for, the ones that are in the kind of, like, more, like, niche passion categories and are less entertainment focused. Yeah. A, a couple- Yeah...
of things to, to, to focus on there. One, that you're- Yeah... saying you're not investing in media businesses.
I think this is more and more, the more I research the creator economy and talk to people, like, the people who are truly thriving, they don't have media businesses.
They have a business that started with media maybe as a way of proving content market fit and of building an audience of people that they are, they're then converting into customers.
Um, but I'm thinking of, uh, as we record, this will be out in like two or three weeks after we record it, but as we record this this week on the Semaphore Media podcast, uh, Mark Cuban went on, and I think the line- Sure...
that they used as the hook, um, for the episode was, like, the worst industry in the history of industries in referenceTo the media business.
[laughs] Um, and it's specifically him saying he would never invest in a media business today. Right. Yeah. I mean, I didn't hear that podcast, but I think...
Look, I think there's two types of businesses creators can build, and I, I kind of put them in a bucket of like a lifestyle business or like a scalable venture scale business, which is to say, I think you can have a really good life telling stories online, um, you know, doing brand deals and making, you know, hundreds of thousands, if not multiple millions dollars a year- Mm-hmm...
building like media type business online, and it's like
it's that or like do you wanna go and be an actor and wait for somebody to pick you to be in a film, or do you wanna go and, you know, work at a company that you may or may not have some equity in?
And like, I, I think it's like a... Like you can live like that and it's great, and you're telling stories or you're, you know, and you're, and you're connecting with an audience. That can be great.
I think the ones that we're really interested in are the ones that are building like, that are h- hyper-focused on taking over the world. They have like a- Mm...
cult-like following, and they wanna build really scalable, big products or services for them. And I think media businesses are hard.
You know, they, they, there, there are some fantastic exits, and then there's a lot of exits that are a lot harder. Um, and, uh, to each their own. Uh- Yeah... it's just not what we're, it's not what we're looking to...
You know, I don't wanna disparage anybody. You know? Yeah.
Like, everybody's building things that like where they're following their heart, or they're building things that they think are good businesses and like for every business that we say isn't gonna work, like there's a creator out there or a founder out there who's gonna make it work.
Mm-hmm. So, um, but yeah, we're hyper-focused on... We're, that's not what our, our focus is, is- Okay. So I, I wanna come back- Yeah...
to some of this and like what is a creator, what is a media business [laughs] type of conversation that I love in a little bit- Sure...
but we should, uh, to make this concrete and to make the thesis concrete for people, let's talk- Yeah, yeah... about, uh, what you actually have invested in so far. So, um- Okay...
at the beginning of August, you guys announced that you'd, that you'd closed your first investment with Jonathan Catsmoisris, who's a- Yeah... woodworking creator, and he- Yeah, yeah...
in, in terms of product, like I, I, I watched his video announcing. It's like a 15-minute video. It's, it's really good. Yeah. Great, right. I would recommend anybody watching this, listening to this- Yeah...
go watch it. But basically sums up his story from basically being almost beaten to death in a street violence incident like 10- Yeah... 15 years ago- Yeah...
and realizing, "Well, shit, I gotta do like something that will make life worth living." Um, and he, he's, you know, he had a construction company. He had a bartending job.
He was like, "I'm gonna start making videos about my woodworking," uh- Yeah... d- all the way to now. I think last year on another podcast, he said he, his business made about $6 million in revenue last year.
I think he has like 15 full-time employees and five part-time- Yeah... employees. Um, and you guys just invested two million in him. He ha- Yeah... he makes products.
He sells I think 150 different products, which is like, you know, little like stops you would put on the saw. I'm not a woodworker, but the tools- Yeah... you use in woodworking. Um- Yeah...
tell me how Jon- Jonathan Catsmoisris, uh, illustrates this, this thesis that I introduced at the beginning. Yeah. I think Jonathan's a really good example of super entrepreneurial creator. So before he- Mm...
even before he was a creator, he had a couple different businesses, um, where he had to manage employees and had to, uh, manage a budget and, you know, build the business and, and figure out how to operate it.
That was really interesting. And he started doing his woodworking videos and was never interested in being famous or building brand dollars, but he was always interested in product innovation. Mm.
So he knows, you know, as being, you know, in being in construction and being a, a hobbyist and being in woodworking, he knew kind of like the tools he needed for the job, and he also knew little places where he could make, "Hey, I could build a tool that does this instead of that," or, "I could...
Here's all these different tools for this job.
I could actually build one that's like works a little better to do this," and he started innovating on tool production and started selling those, like very basic, making them in a shop, in a very small shop that was the size of like a couple bedroom closets.
And then he, you know, he's now in a 30,000 square foot, uh, area.
But like what he's been doing is he's like been building a relationship with an audience around his story as an entrepreneur and mostly as his story as a woodworker and giving... There's content on his site.
He only publishes like once a month, but there's tons of content on his site that's evergreen- Mm... that anybody who wants to consider the right tool for the right job can go and watch a video. It says, "Okay.
Well, here's the four different kinds of saws that you could use for this type of job," and like, "Here's like the really basic hand tool one if you have a garage that has $200 worth of tools in it, and here's the ones that are like the more high-end one and the pros and cons."
Never pitching anybody else's products- Mm-hmm... just walking you through it- He doesn't take advertisements from any of these companies. He does not do... Mm-mm. Mm-mm. He's never wanted to do that.
Um, he's always wanted to focus on building his own tools. Um, so yeah, he's a really good example of like a community that loves him. Um, he is in a passion niche area that's high spend.
Um, people have woodworking garages with very basic tools that, um, that can get the job done, and they have $10,000 garages with, that are making canoes and ukuleles and- Mm...
you know, bedroom, bedroom furniture, you know? Um, and but it's a passion. Like, if you're a woodworker, you li- would wear a cap that says, "I'm a woodworker."
You wear a sh- you know, in the same way you like love the Dodgers or you love, you know, your favorite football team or you're a, a watch guy or a cyclist or like...
You know, it's like a, it's something that you say, "I am this." Mm.
And so categories that say, "I am this, and this is part of my community," and you have somebody who stands out in that community, those are the great kind of people to get behind.
And then Jonathan's done a great job of like going from himself in the shack to manufacturing tools at scale.
Yes, like you said, going, you know, going in the $6 million range of last year's revenue, all products that he makes himself. It's not like he's just white labeling somebody else's product that they tweak for him.
He's actuallyHas people building the tools and- Uh, he's... I think he said they manufacture-... sourcing... 100 out of their 150 products in that warehouse we keep talking about. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.
He does a, an amazing job of, you know, figuring... He's just like a figure-it-out guy. Mm. And figure-it-out gals and figure-it-out guys are...
You know, you didn't used to think of them in the same terms that you would think of...
You don't automatically think like, "Oh, creator," like figure-it-out business operator that's gonna be selling $6 million of products that they designed themselves. And I think that we,
when we, when this industry started, uh, or when people were kind of moving off television and moving onto digital platforms, there was a very
robust, um, ecosystem that formed around creators that was very Hollywood ad revenue, media spend focused.
And I think more and more the kind of Silicon Valley/entrepreneurial how to actually build a business, a direct to consumer business bug has hit. Mm.
And these entrepreneurial creators like Jonathan are really surfacing, that they're not your folks that may or may not be going to VidCon, or may or may not be- Yeah...
going to VidSummit, or may or not be, like, your, on your Times or Forbes lists of creators to watch and things like that. But these are people- Yeah... who are building, like, real scale businesses.
So I wanna get back into some of these specific details about, like, why you guys chose to invest in, in Mudge. Sure. But there's also, we have to talk about what we talk about when we use the term creator, right?
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Which we've, you, you and I have talked about this before, and this is a, a theme on this podcast that anybody- Okay...
listening or watching will be familiar with the fact that I ask [laughs] this every time. No.
But the definition I've been operating with for a while, there's one that's pretty high level vague that I don't really tend to use, which is just anybody contributing to the corpus of the internet, right? Mm-hmm.
Um, and then the other one is, which is basically kind of how I choose people I interview, people who are this or, uh, work with people who are this, is somebody who is creating digital media for distribution on digital platforms, working in earnest to build an audience for it beyond their friends and family, and finally monetizing it somehow, whether that is with advertisement subscriptions, with products like, like Jonathan.
Um, but then where it start, where this version, where this definition that I've been using for a while starts to break down is when we talk about someone like Jonathan, right?
Where it's like is he a, a startup founder or is he a creator in this media sense? It's kind of like a perfectly overlapping Venn diagram that's just a circle, right?
And what this says to me, um, in the fact that, like, you are, you know, inve- like, working to invest in, in creators, like, what does that mean? What's the type of creator you're looking to invest in?
You're not looking to invest in media businesses, you're looking to invest in people who have, like, kind of built a media business that is then being leveraged into another kind of business. Um, my point here- Yeah...
uh, my question for you is, like, is the term creator increasingly meaningless? Because you're looking to invest in essentially startup founders who, uh, found product market fit through media first maybe before- Yeah...
building products. So that's kind of the definition of creator that I see you- Yes... at Slow having. Um- 100%. So yeah, tell me, tell me more about it.
Yeah, no, I mean, I think, I think your definition sits well with me. I don't think a creator necessarily needs to be monetizing to fit. Like, all the things that you listed out, I'm, I'm on board with.
But the, I think the monetizing part, like, just philosophically, like, they can be a creator, they could be adding- Mm.
They could be doing it every day, they could be doing it once a month, they could be adding to the conversation, they can be building beautiful content, they can be nurturing an audience, they can wanna grow it, and they could not be monetizing it.
Yeah. I could still consider them a creator.
Um, I think the Venn diagram that we're talking about is the one that has your creator on one side and your entrepreneur on the other side, and where they meet is our, is, is where we, where, where we really like them.
I think as far as, like, the kind of creators that we invest in, like, they don't have to be monetizing outside of brand deals just yet.
I mean, it's always great for them to, um, show signal that people are willing to spend.
So e-even if it's something as simple as a merch drop, um, if they're doing, if they're at a sc- if they're at scale and they're- Showing an ability to activate their community and turn them into customers...
and they can move them into purchase- Mm-hmm... one way or the other, it's good signal, but it's not necessary.
There's creators that we are, you know, that we're in negotiation with or that we should be closing quickly or we can announce soon that, um, that have not made a dollar other than working with brands. Mm.
But they have a really great idea about what they wanna do, and that's fine with us too.
Um, so as long as we feel like they can pull it off, that they can attract talent to come work with them, um, that they could manage employees and build the right, uh, team to work with them, or that they could go off and do it themselves.
So they don't have to be making money, um, off platform, I would say, uh, to, to, to, for us to consider investment, but we have to feel like they can go do it. Yeah.
To, to summarize this, I have another graphic, um, that- Yeah... that you guys distribute, which is this pyramid of what you look for that describes three types of creators. Yeah, yeah.
So at the bottom is the emerging creator, which is- Yeah... under 100,000 followers building trust. Yeah. Um, and at the top, and I'll, I'll read where you guys look for, which is the middle last.
So at the very top is the celebrity creator, which is- Yeah... enter-entertainment or lifestyle focused creator, as you were saying at the beginning that you typically don't look for.
They might have 5 million plus followers, 2 million plus in brand partnerships and advertising dollars, and $10 million, 10 million plus in off platform revenue. So this is- Right... celebrity big business.
They don't really need you. There's not gonna necessarily be that return that, uh, investing needs. They might not, yeah, they might not need our capital. Yeah. And then finally- Yeah...
this is what you look for, which is the creator CEO- Yeah... which has creators leveraging media and brand to build category specific businesses.
They have 200,000 to 1 million plus followers, uh, $500,000 to $2 million in brand partnerships and advertising, and zero to, to 5 million in off platform revenue.
And this is a graphic that my editor Tom will again put on the screen- [laughs]... if you're watching on YouTube. Thanks, Tom. Um, [laughs] but, but yeah.
So it's this creator CEO, which again, that word CEO, it's like you're looking for startup founders who kind of have a category expertise and a, a DIY approach to media as, as, to owned media distribution.Yeah.
I mean, I think they-- I, I... You know, they, they should be able to also operate on other channels and... I mean, they can operate on other channels and work with other platforms.
That's totally in the cards, but yeah, like, they should have a really strong relationship with a really, um, passionate audience- Mm-hmm... in a pretty specific vertical. Yeah.
And, um, and they should be at a, at a, at a place in their journey where capital helps them scale. Yeah.
You know, and they're ready, they're ready for hap- They're ready for capital to help move them forward, to take shots on goal. And by the way, like,
the other important thing to think about with capital for some of these creators is, like, they don't just- w-we don't just wanna, uh, in, in-invest in a creator who's like, "Oh, I got one idea," um, and that's it. Mm.
Um, because as, as you and I know as an entrepreneur, like, you gotta take a lotta shots on goal. Like, you can try lots of ideas, and
you can try your first one, and then it cannot work, and you can try your next one, and it cannot work.
And we really want them to try a bunch of stuff, and that's why the capital can be really nice, so they can take different shots on goal. Mm. We're not just investing in one business.
Like, we didn't just invest in Jonathan's tool business. We invested in Jonathan.
And so all of these creators, we invest in them directly with the idea that, like, they can try multiple businesses, and they can use some of their capital to help them work on their content so they have more time to work on businesses.
Jonathan specifically,
you know, like, he was only publishing a video, like, a month for a while, and then when the business gets really busy and he's, like, trying to get orders out and he's, um, planning a new release and he's, and he's just slammed as a business owner with, like, a solid tool business, sometimes, like, content has to fall, um, second priority so he gets done what he needs to do to, like, match his deadlines with business.
So the capital that we provide to him is gonna relieve some of that pain on the, kind of, uh, order planning and, and cash flow as far as product is concerned, but it also gives him some capital to hire a couple folks and support, support him so he has enough time to, like, up his content cadence- Yeah...
um, and really kind of, like, supply that evergreen content for those people that are coming in and, and things like that. Mm-hmm.
Uh, so I, I do wanna ask a few questions specifically about the investment and, and- Yeah... why he wanted to do-- why he wanted it and any risks you have. Yeah.
So, so first, um, I understand that he was part of the cohort. You had, like, 700-plus, um, s-sub-submissions when you announced the fund back in February. Yeah.
Seven hundred-plus that you guys reviewed, I understand, and he had submitted- Yeah... um, his business, and you guys chose him.
But I also understand that he, um, had had similar conversations before that always fell apart because whoever he was talking to wanted some control of the business, and he did not wanna give up any control.
And I understand that Slow has zero control of the business, which seems pretty rare and maybe also necessary to some extent for a creative business like that.
So tell me why he wanted to accept this capital from you and he didn't wanna accept it from other people, um, and what it means for you guys to have zero control of the business. Yeah.
I mean, our job is to match capital with really great founders that are also creators. Mm-hmm. And we're betting on them, so we don't... For two reasons, we don't, like,
sit on their boards and approve budgets and, like... And we're not really resources for them. I mean, listen- Yeah...
Jonathan can call me and say, "Hey, man, let's go get a burger and talk about content and creative strategy," and I'm like, "Tell me when to be in Santa Barbara," and I'll jump in my car and I'll roll up there and we'll hang out and have a nice long talk.
And I'm always available for, like, that kind of, um, working relationship or, "Hey, can you... Like, can we connect you to this person or can we connect you to that person?" Yes.
But, you know, at previ- You know, at, when a ca- when you're deploying $1 to $3 million, um, out of a $65 million fund, you just don't have the resources to, like, be on everybody's- Yeah...
boards and be their, like, roll-up-your-sleeve partner. What our job, what our job is, is to really find the best people that can run it themselves.
So along with that, um, that's why we don't take control because we're not in there, like... We're not... And we don't have enough of an ownership stake to really do that.
Like, our job is to pick the right people in the right spaces and, like, let them cook. Yeah. So that was like re- That's really important to understand. Um, and so that's, that's kinda wh- that's kinda why we do it.
Like, we're, our, our... All our work is, like, done, so to speak, when we pick the right person. Hey, if you're enjoying this conversation, consider subscribing to the podcast. We release a new episode every Tuesday.
All right, back to the show. Um, so I understand that the, the checks that you're writing at Slow, um, I don't know, like, the, uh, what the average size will be.
This is the first one, the only one that's been announced. Um- Yeah... but I do understand that it's intended to be for about 5% to 10% ownership of the creator's company.
Um- I think, yeah, around 10, around 10% kind of- Okay... plus or minus. Yeah.
So how does this compare to more traditional, let's say, like, s-startup investing where this, this is basically a seed stage investment and a seed stage check. I think it's pretty similar. Yeah. Yeah.
I think it's, it's... The, the mapping of the,
the mapping of the, kind of, deals and the equity stakes and how much we're deploying are very much in line with a $60 million, $65 million kind of steed- uh, seed stage fund, uh- Yeah... or early stage venture fund.
Yeah. So this is- Do you think- Yeah. Uh, I was gonna ask if, if you think there's, like, a...
Like, is there a ceiling for the type of check you would be writing for this fund and then, like, maybe, you know, the, some of these investments start to be successful, and then there's a larger fund. I don't know.
Maybe that's thinking too far ahead in the future. Yeah. But is there sort of a ceiling for, for this check size? I think, um, right now we're, we're targeting $1 to $3 million.
I, I assume if some majorExciting thing came, we could, we could see what kind of upticks we could go from that or- Mm-hmm...
if there was something that we really felt like we wanted to get in but just kind of didn't command or need less than a million dollars. I'm sure there's, like, some consideration set. Um, I don't know what that is.
Right now we're, like, hyper-focused on, like, one to three million dollars for, like- Mm... somewhere north or south of, of ten percent. Um, are there- Yeah... people that you've been talking to...
I imagine there are people that you've been talking to actually that have, have said no to investment that maybe would be- Yep... a great fit.
Um, tell me the sort of reasons that people would not want to take this investment. Yeah, I mean, I think for every investment, um, whether it's our fund or every fund, like it, it, uh, it- Creator's not, basically...
you know, it's like a pi- Yeah. Yeah, creators are not. It's like, you know, like what kind of shoes do you like, you know? If you have, um,
if you have a personality match and a shared vision of the future and there's an idea that like, um, you know, and then there's like an idea that, like, both of you really, like, wanna be working together.
Um, when the deals fall apart, they're generally just, like, on terms that are like, you know, like hey, like valuations. Like, hey- Yeah...
it's really hard to justify this valuation, and it's really hard especially in creator businesses 'cause, like, a lot of their, a lot of their, uh, revenue so far has been brand-supported and, like, that's, like, it's a really big accomplishment to make $2 million a year working with brands and marketers and partnerships.
It's like- Yeah... wow. And like, it's very low... It's very, very high margin, and so people are like, "Man." And I'm like, "That is awesome. I love that.
I think you're doing great," and also, like, it's a hard thing to 100% think of as, like, an exitable business. Mm-hmm. You know, you can't look at it... Like, it's like if you stop doing it
or you fall out of favor or you... You know, if you just stop doing it, it's over. In any business that if you just stop doing it, it's over, it's really hard to, like, think about, like, an exit value on that.
Well, key man risk, you know, like, is probably- Yeah, key man risk-... bigger in this space than in- Yeah, I would frame that a... I would... And I'm happy to talk about key man risk. Yeah.
I'd frame that a little differently as far as, like, the valuation conversation is going. But like, so I think sometimes to answer your question around, like, why do deals- Yeah...
not happen is, like, I think there's like, there can be valuations. I think people like the terms of the deal, like the, the length of the deal. They're like, "Okay, well, I just want you to invest in my new business.
I don't want you to invest in me holistically- Mm... as a creator."
And, um, I think for us, like, we're actually betting on them and their audience and their ability to convert and their ability to, like, try new things, and if this capital works for them like that, and they can, um, they feel good about that, great.
But if they just want us like, "Hey, we want you in this venture-" Yeah... "this specific thing," you and I know that, like,
they should be taking three, four shots on goal before they find something that's, like, really scalable. Um- Well, this is... Yeah, real quick. So, you know- Yeah...
a kind of a classic phrase is like you bet on the horse, not the jock, or the jockey, not the horse. You bet on the jockey, not the horse, right? Oh, yeah.
You're betting on the founder, n-not n- not necessarily the company in a lot- Yeah... of these cases.
Um, and I think with creators, I think I've spoken to some people, um, who have, who, who've had success in the creator economy, and they often have some sort of anxiety around, like, the fact that it's about them and they're like, "I wish that I wasn't just the face of this, and I wish I could, like, step back and that this could be- Yes...
a business I'm building that's not so much about me."
And what, what you just said there where, like, you're y- they're, they're like, "No, I want you to invest in this business," and you're like, "Well, no, we want to invest in you, which includes the business," that kind of gets at this conflict that I don't know if it's unique to the creator economy, but definitely, like, figures big in the creator economy where people- Yes...
even as they grow based on their personality and these very specific quirks of, of them, you know, like, they kind of want to step back from that and de-risk that.
Uh, listen, uh, and I think, I actually think, like, you know, like, I actually think...
And, and I totally hear where their anxiety comes from, and I think it's, I think it actually comes from a very good place, which is like- Mm-hmm...
at some point, like, they don't wanna be in front of the camera, and they don't wanna be, like, driving. And by the way, like, bus- building a business is the best way to do that, right? Yeah.
So I'll, I'll go back to this Doug DeMuro example is, like, he bu- he's a a- a auto influencer who does car reviews and is, like, a deeply passionate, um, auto enthusiast, well-loved and well trusted- Mm-hmm...
amongst everybody in the automotive industry, right? Um, and he built an auto auction platform, and... called Cars & Bids.
And he, you know, raised, I don't know, million and a half bucks, two million bucks to, like, build this platform up before we invested north of $30 million in, in it at, from Chernin. Mm-hmm.
But Doug built this platform because he knew, he, A, he was an expert in the space. He knew. He saw the white space.
He knew there was room for a well-executed auto auction platform, and he also knew that, like, he didn't wanna make three videos a week for, like, the next 20 years. [laughs] Yeah.
And, like, he just knew that at some point, like, this was gonna change, right? And so that's a great instinct, and we did bet on Doug, and we do bet on, at, here at Slow, we do bet on founders.
And, like, people that come into Cars & Bids, many of them know who Doug is, and many of them don't. So at some point, if you... The, the, the investment in a creator gets their business from, like, zero
to, like, 10, let's just call it. Mm. Yeah. Like, you know, out of, out of 100, right?
And, like, the early stage investment is there to help them get past that first stage, and then once it gets to another scale, maybe there's more rounds of funding.
We're, we're to- we're totally capable, interested, and we want to invest in that next round as one of those businesses go. But that is separate from I don't want this all to be about me. Yeah.
It doesn't have to all be about you. You just get to build the business because you know the audience, you know the space. It doesn't have to be after your name, but it is still on you for a while.
So you can spend the next five years making content, getting brand partnerships, getting those, like, checks from AdSense, or you could spend the next five years building something that then gets to $10 million in revenue or $20 million in revenueAnd then you can, you know, take on some more capital, get to even more scale.
You can exit, what- whatever it is. So that- that's the way I think about that. Yeah. It's, it's almost like betting on the person as, like, a studio, as, like, this co- as this, uh, venture studio.
[laughs] Yeah, they're just, they're just founders, man. Yeah. Like, they're just founders. And, um, I think helping creators, like, uh, reframe...
And, and the ones that we talk to generally are already at this place in their mind, but I think a lot of the education in the creator space is really about not just teaching them about brand deals, and, and, and thumbnails, and audience growth, and how to get your, uh, media distributed on fast channels, and how to get a TV show at Netflix.
It's really gotta be about how, how to, how to hire a CTO. Yeah. Whether you need a CMO or you need... Or whether you need a CEO or you need a chief of staff. Uh, whether you need... Like, how to work with...
Should you build a technical product with a technical founder, or should you use one of the out-of-box solutions that are supporting creators to build courses?
Like, all of these are the kinds of education and, and work that creators need to be doing to, like, f- be entrepreneurs, the same kind of education that entrepreneurs are doing from the time they get into college or they- Yeah...
they get out of high school and they're starting to figure out business. Like, they just gotta keep thinking like that, and, like, this new class of creator is thinking like that. Yeah.
And those are the ones we're looking for. I, I read, um, something in a newsletter yesterday, in, in Delia Cai's newsletter, about, like, uh, how at her alma mater, she went to Mizzou, um, J-school at Mizzou- Mm-hmm...
and how there's like six tracks people could take there as a journalist, and kind of the most looked down upon was kind of the social communications track. Right. And now that one has been really prized and is- Sure...
you know, really almost equally or not more important than any other for, for making a living as a, as a journalist because you need to know how to market, you need to know how to distribute your information.
Um, that's not gonna be done for you. Um, and, and that, that kind of comes to mind in what you're saying in the end there, where, like, you're looking for people who are creators, but they're acting like founders.
And it's, it's kind of the- Yeah... it's kind of the entrepreneurialization of culture as a whole, I think, that I've... Maybe it's 'cause I'm, it's the line of work I'm in and I talk to- Yeah, yeah...
entrepreneurs and creators all day, but I think, like, the new, like, learn to code is, like, learn to do marketing because all these other things have been so democratized, whether it's, you know, vibe coding making it easier to stand up a, a, you know, an alpha of a product, whatever.
Um, uh, but yeah, it's, it's, it's all [laughs] it's all marketing. The tool, the tools are... You know, the tools are there- Mm-hmm...
in a way that it was harder 10 years ago to launch a e-com business or launch- Yeah... a, um, a schooling business, or launch technical products, or any kind of services.
Like, you know, even when they, you know, built the, the... You know, like, the first, the, the really big example of an auto auction platform is called Bring a Trailer- Mm. Yep... and it was built in WordPress. Oh, wow.
You know, and they're doing, they're doing ton of money. And, you know, like, Doug was able to get his up and running at like, a, you know, much quicker, and that was, I don't know, seven, eight years ago. Yeah.
And, like, even now it's even faster. So the tools entrepreneurs and creators have
at their hands and online to get to market, and to manage their inventory, and to manage their workflows, and to hire people, and bring people on, and people work remotely, like, are
far more sophisticated and easier to use- Yeah... than they were. And so that's another reason you're gonna see, like, the creator entrepreneur rise- Mm... uh, you know, as, as we move forward. Yeah. Yeah.
Um, so I, I'd asked that key man question a second ago. Yeah. I, I don't know if it's the right question to ask anymore, 'cause basically- It's a good question...
what you're saying, it's, it's almost that, like, the, the, the risk, saying key man risk, you know, as, as the term goes, it's almost like the risk is, is part of it, but it's also the upside of it because you're betting on these individual people and you're betting on them, not their business.
Like, the risk is just gonna be part of it and it's more of, like, a key man upside, which is a corny thing to say- Yeah, yeah... but that's kind of what I'm picking up here.
Yeah, I mean, I think, like, every business has key man risk, and I think, um, in many way... Like, so there's a couple ways to think about it, is, like, is it so heavily reliant on the founder? Yeah.
Any business early stage is heavily reliant on the founder, I don't care who you talk to. Um, so early stage betting, you're betting on a founder, whether they're a creator or not.
And then you could say, "Oh, well, they're a creator, so they're out there talking all the time, so they could say something wrong and get canceled," or all of that kind of stuff.
And I think that can happen with, with the traditional founders as well. And- Yeah...
you know, I think, um, generally people have very strong communities and, like, there's some resilience into, in, in that, um, that, like, we really look to. And, like, yeah, we gotta diligent and make sure...
diligence people and make sure they're, you know, um, that they're conscious about, like, what they're saying out, out in the world, and that they're a good human, and that they're doing the right thing.
And I think people are also... You know, there's, like, a pushback on cancel culture. Like, people are- Yeah. I mean, look, I mean, look what's going on in the world, right?
Like, I, I don't know if anybody's cancelable anymore. [laughs] I would, I would tend to agree with that. Um- Yeah... what are some of the big red flags that you are looking for, um- Mm...
that might be different than more traditional, like, startup investments? That's a good question. I don't, I don't know that they would be different than- Yeah... startup investments.
I mean, I think there's a specific, um... You know, because they're creators and the signal we're looking for is, like, maybe different than, like, um,
just traditional founders that don't have, like, a scaled audience or community. Um- Mm-hmm...
I think red flags that we look for are, yeah, you got a big audience, and yeah, you have some i- and yeah, you have some really great ideas, but, like, are you really hungry, and have you put enough time, and are you 100% focused on building this?
Sometimes, you know, you, you meet with a creator, they're gung ho, they really like the, they, they, they have an idea that they want, and then it takes a long time for them to kind of, like, get the deal together and, you know, work through, work through the deal process and, and, um-Really understand what we're doing, and, like, there's totally some coaching and, like some, some, um,
some grace we give to that. But if they're not, like, driving it and pushing it through, like, that- Mm-hmm... you can tell that it's like, okay, is this...
If they, uh, if they aren't really driving and pushing through this deal, are they really gonna drive and push through on this business?
'Cause this deal is, like, one deal in 1,000 deals they're gonna have to do to get to $100 million in revenue, right? Yeah. So that's one flag.
Another flag is if you can't just pick up the phone and call the creator and talk about something, if they have some sort of layers of lawyers- Yeah...
and agents that, like, gatekeep, it's like they should just, like, keep being transactional and do transactional stuff through their agents and managers and lawyers.
And if you can't pick up the phone and, like, talk to them about the deal, they won't negotiate it themselves, they won't talk through it, then it's like, you know, like- They can't do this here...
there's a, there's a layer, yeah, there's a layer that they've built around themselves that's unhealthy for an entrepreneur who's, like, looking to build businesses. I mean, they're not gonna, like,
rely on those people to, like, hire their CEO or hire a, a c- you know, hire a, a technical lead or build out a product engineer, like, or build out a designer, like, you know? Yeah.
So we just gotta make sure that they're, like, running the show. Mm-hmm. Like, that's always a re-re... That can be a red flag. Yeah. Uh, sort of a pivot here. So I wanna talk- Yeah... about VidCon. Um, couple things.
One, you mentioned, um, like- Yeah... a few months ago or so that a lot of the people, type of people you're investing in, y- you said they're not necessarily going to VidCon. And what you mean by that- Yeah...
is that, like, I think VidCon, y- you told me last time we spoke that you've been going for 12 years. I'm not quite sure- Yeah... how long it's been going for. I think around that. Yeah.
Not too min- not too many years longer. But when you said that, um, you were sort of implying that, like, the, there's almost not a need for so many people to go there anymore because these skills have been
more democratized, and it's so much easier to learn how to, like, you know, the, it, it, it's rote to talk about thumbnails and titles now. Like, this knowledge is so much more available. Um, and so, like- Yeah...
again, this is why, like, the... Well, we'll get, we'll get back to that in a second. But it- Yeah...
this, um, like, uh, t- even that there is a creator fund, and the way we're talking about it is like, well, it's not really so much different than any other fund, it's just, like, that this entrepreneur happens to have, like, a foot in content in a big way, right?
Yeah. Um, my point is that, like, the creator economy has widened and is not this niche little thing anymore. It's, it's eaten up a bunch of other, um, entrepreneurial categories and culture.
Um, so I, I, I do have a question, but I wanna give you a chance to- Yeah... you were gonna say something a second ago. What were you gonna say? Oh, yeah. Just, like, I think, first of all, I think VidCon is rad. Mm-hmm.
Um, and it's fun, and I think it serves a great purpose for a great many of fans, industry, and creators. Mm-hmm. Um, I think the...
When I think of the, as the industry track has developed and the, you know, both for brands and operators who work within the creator industry, as, as well as creators who are very entrepreneurial focused, I think it has
done a great job of teaching brands how to work with creators. Mm-hmm. It's t-t-done a very good job for brands look- you know, teaching them how to behave like creators.
And the, you know, agents, managers, platforms that are built to, you know, support creators as they're, you know, like, content ID'ing, and, um, thumbnail and audience growing and, and moving their, moving their content to different media platforms to monetize it, I think it's like, it's very mature in that sense.
And I think the place in which
I see growing in the creator economy, um, that is, that I, I'm excited for VidCon to catch up, is having more focus on creators that are building businesses and connecting them- Yeah, non-media businesses...
non-media businesses. Right. Like businesses that are, like, more support, information, um, networking,
um, people who are out there, like, with the picks and shovels building businesses just like they are in Silicon Valley, just like they are in the middle of the country, that are building great businesses.
And the o- the creators need education about that as well, and the creators need to be able to tell stories about those successes as well.
And right now, you know, like Jonathan Katz-Moses, you know, you ask him about VidCon, he kind of doesn't even really know what it is. [laughs] I mean, I'm sure he knows what it is. Yeah. But like,
you know, he's like, "I'm not here to, like, connect with people and learn about thumbnails and do that stuff," although he could totally benefit from, like- Yeah...
and everybody can benefit from some good old content strategy and, like, building your audience and stuff like that. And I... You know, so there's a value there.
But I think- But, but that, the, the industry of people who are just focusing on that is, is so saturated, whereas the industry of people who are making a woodworking community- I think there's a real opportunity...
there's less saturation I think there's a real opportunity to have more information creators like they would get when they went to Stanford, like when they go to MIT- Yeah...
when they go to Harvard, when they go to business school, when they go, uh, when they go work, you know, at companies that are building things from zero to, you know, $100 million so they, like, know how to, like, run and build a business.
A lot of creators, like, started making content, doing a great job in a niche passion category- Yeah... or general content, and then, you know, they're 20-nothing to 30, and they, like, learn all the media stuff.
And that's rad and great, and they're learning, and they're being entrepreneurial. They're doing great things. They're not, like, sitting around waiting, going just to auditions- Yeah...
waiting for somebody to pick them. And so they're rad, but, like, imagine them having a half a day, a day panels that are like, "Okay, this is how I hired my CEO." Yeah. "This is how much money I need to have.
This is how I made a deal with them to work on a project first for six months to see if I liked working with them, and here's how I, like, think about all the things I'm really good at and what I'm looking for in a creator.
Here's how I write a JD," or if I have much, a much more scaled business, "Okay, how do I... W- who are the search firms that I can work with- Mm...
to help me do that, who are finding people for Beast, and finding people for Epic Gardening- Yeah... and finding people for these other-" This is just the maturation of an in- of an industry really. 100%.
I, I'm reminded of, of a couple things. Uh, one, there was a video that, uh, it was just, like, a little vertical video that, uh, Colin of Colin and Samir posted the other day. Mm-hmm.
That was him saying, like, "You know, people ask for us for advice onLike, what's the best way to start being a creator today or whatever, start making a living as a creator?
And he was like, "Here's the best thing you can do in 2025. It's get a job, and go do that job, and, like, do the other stuff on the side, and, like, specialize in something at your job."
Um, and then the other thing I'm, I'm thinking of, uh, Simon Owens- Mm-hmm... of Simon Owens Media newsletter, he recently wrote a great, like, 8,000-word history of Medium, um- Hmm...
from kind of its founding until now, where now it's profitable- Sure... after years kind of out in the woods. Um- Yeah...
and, uh, I forget if it was the founder of Medium or the current CEO who are, who are different people, but one of them, he attributed this quote to them, that was like, um, this person's definition of creator is not like...
And the type of creator that they wanted to attract to Medium was not the person who is, like, a creator qua creator going out and just, like, making media for the sake of making media, right? Um, they want...
He wanted to attract, like, the person who is the, the expert. Maybe they're like, uh, this is kind of the, the Cat's Moses example.
Like, maybe he's an expert woodworker, and he's writing about, like, things he's learned from woodworking in his spare time and making, like, a little bit of extra cash doing that, and it's not like the content business is the full business.
It's that, like, it's almost a steam valve for, for things he's thinking about and working through in his daily life. So that's, that's kind of, um... I think that's a really appealing and lasting definition of creator.
But then the one I gave at the beginning about, like, the... You know, and I said they had to be monetizing, and you kind of pushed back on that.
For me, that has to be the definition for this show because I need to talk to people like that because that's what the audience is interested in, right? Yes.
But, but I do think that this, um, this definition of, like, have something else that you're doing, and then, like, you will just be media literate in terms of media production literacy to be a creator, and that's kind of what you're talking about.
Yeah.
I mean, I think the part of that that's interesting to me, and I, and I haven't read the article, so I, I don't wanna, I don't wanna, um, misparaphrase it or, or take out, out from it something that wasn't intended. But,
you know, like, it comes back to this, like, voice of authority and area of expertise.
If all you're doing as a creator is, um, communicating, uh, an idea, like, where are you getting the idea if you haven't spent time working in that field? So I love that, um, which is to say...
You know, there's this great guy named Michael Easter. Mm-hmm. Um, he wrote a book called "The Comfort Crisis." Uh, he was a professor. I, I wanna say it was UNLV. I could be incorrect.
He's a professor, and he has a really...
After years and years of working as a professor and, you know, working as a, you know, as a student and writing books about areas of interest, um, that really have to do with, like, um, how we're currently as humans living on the Earth, and we need to be out more.
We need to push ourselves more physically. We need to carry heavy items.
We need to do all these things that are gonna, like, keep us alive and keep us connected to who we are as humans, and I'm sure he's gonna hate the way I've- [chuckles]... uh, framed his, [chuckles]
uh, his take on the world, but I'm sure some of that is, is close enough. But- Mm... um, you know, he wri- he has a great, uh, three-day a week, um,
newsletter that every, every time I open g- I get great information from. And yeah, I think in many...
You know, his books and his, um, and his writings are this kind of release valve of information that he's gathering while he's, like, doing his job researching, um, you know, uh, um, you know, studying, uh, teaching, and that's a great outlet.
And then, and then from there you can decide if you can turn it into a business, right? Mm. Um, that's beyond the, um, media part of it, right? Like, from, from your
li- from your work life, from your experience set, then you start to create content that gives information to people who are interested in it, like, puts your voice of authority out in the world, and then you go, you know...
And then you can figure out... Like, you know, like Jocko Willink, I don't know if you know. You know Jocko, like- Mm-hmm... he's a, you know, he was a SEAL, you know?
And, um, he trained jujitsu, and he, um, you know, has a daughter, and he really talks in his podcast about leadership and what it's like to be a SEAL, and jujitsu, and physical fitness, and discipline being freedom, and all of those kinda, like, things.
And he's a, you know, he's a badass. Mm. And people really, like, trust him and listen to him. And then he turned that into leadership courses, and then he turned that into...
And that, that does well, and then he turned it into boots and clothing, um, like tactical apparel, and then he turned it into an energy drink, you know?
And you can imagine which one is making the most money, but, like, that goes back to that shots on goal idea. Yeah.
But he has an amazing, from years and years as a SEAL, you know, in the Marines, you know, being very focused on his physical fitness, raising his daughter, and, like, thinking, and thinking through that in a very intentional way- Well, this is kind of like classic advice about being a writer and how to make it as a writer.
To, to be a great writer, live a great life first, right? There you go. Like- Yeah... it's the s- Yeah... it's the same with this. Like, it's much harder...
Like, maybe 10 years ago it was easier to just start making YouTube videos about whatever, um, a-and, and build an audience because there was, there was much less competition just for attention generally.
But now, like, this advice, it's, it's calcified a little bit, and this advice- Yeah... applies more than ever. Yeah. I mean, I, I love the, um...
Look, people, like, a, there is a s- there is entertainment as part of the internet. Yeah. And, um, and there's also, like, a ton of learning. Yeah. You know?
And when it comes to these lear- like, these learning platforms, like, uh, you know, video content creators, or podcast, or blogs, like, you know, you learn, and then you buy. Yeah. You know?
Like, if you are learning from
Missouri Star Quilt Company, the, the lady who has this amazing YouTube, uh, massive YouTube empire, like, teaching people how to quilt-Then you go to her store and you buy all the materials. Yeah.
Because you wanna, like, support your creator. Like, you don't need to go to whatever the other quilting supply stores are. You can, um, or you can just buy right from her, you know? Yeah. Um, and it's not, um...
it's totally fine. Like, you know, like we're in a world where you, like, don't... Like, proprietors are few and far between, you know?
Like, it's very hard to have a clothing store or have, you know, and not get eaten alive by Amazon or all these other places. Like, you wanna buy from places that you know. Like, it's rare. Right.
And so if there's somebody who, like, is, is teaching you about your passion area and they're like, "Yo, I used to not be able to do anything. Now look at this quilt that I, like, every year from, to my granddaughter.
Every, every, ev-," you know, "for my granddaughter, every year I give them a quilt." And they're like- Yeah... "Oh man, Grandma or Mom or whatever is able to give me a quilt, and I'll have it forever."
Like, are you gonna, like, go to big box corporate-owned store? Are you gonna go to, you know, are you gonna go to something that started from somebody's grandmother? You know, so it's like- Mm...
the, the learn to buy thing is really, is really important. If somebody's gonna teach you something and you're gonna learn from them, like, yeah, it's like buying from them is, like, cool.
This go- and this goes back to the thesis at the, at the beginning, the type of creator you're looking for. You're looking for somebody- Yeah... who's creating that connection. Yeah. I think we'll end it right there.
Billy, thank you for coming on. Okay, cool. Yeah. Is there any, uh- Thanks for having me... I know there's an event. This will come out, I believe, on September ninth.
On, on, on September eighteenth, if it hasn't filled up by then, you, you guys have a event at the Lighthouse in LA, right? Yeah. Yeah. It'll be great.
Like, so, so kind of what we talked about, um, earlier in the podcast, we put together a day with operators, founders, creators all telling stories about how they built their businesses.
Um, so we got some really great people. We got Gohar Khan from Next Admit, who's a really amazing creator. We got Doug DeMuro and, uh, Blake, his technical co-founder, his co-founder, uh, his, you know, his co-CEO.
Jonathan Katz-Moses will be there, right? Jonathan Katz-Moses will be there. He's gonna be rad. Um, and then we have a lot, you know, like, we have folks that have partnered with creators- Mm...
to build businesses, so it's, like, kind of like what did that look like, you know, and what do you look out for, what do you want as a, as a, uh, to, to, like, to think about who to hire to work with you and, like, and then deeper stories about, like, how did you build your supply chain, how did you build a technical product, um, how did you go from direct to consumer to Amazon to retail and wholesale, and, like, what are the things you need to think about when you're doing that?
Um, so it's got a lot of really great information for noth- there's gonna be nothing on media. There's gonna be nothing on working with brands. Um- That's table stakes...
so it's got a lot of really great, uh, great information for founders who are entrepreneurial curious or are, like, actually building businesses and wanna, like, hear from people who are doing it as well. Cool.
Well, uh, I unfortunately will not be able to attend, but listener- Come on, bro... you should, you should go... get on a plane. [laughs] Should be fun. It'll be fun. All right. It's a great, it's a great day.
Thank you for coming on. Listener, see you next week.
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