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If you don't have a YouTube, like what are you doing? Get on YouTube, start building. I'm curious what you would say is the most creator-friendly and the least creator-friendly platform at the moment.

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I would say YouTube, TikTok, Snapchat, and then Instagram. Mm. The problem with Instagram, any way to get ahead or kind of like be successful on Instagram is like shrouded in mystery.

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I would like to hear what's already percolating, your 2026 predictions. Carousels are tremendously effective, especially for accounts of a certain size.

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I think we've just been hit over the head so many times with like video first. We're not thinking about carousels necessarily, but I think on LinkedIn and Instagram we're gonna be looking a lot more at carousels.

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You told me about a couple models you have for evaluating, basically, uh, whether platforms are full of shit. Welcome back to the Creator Spotlight podcast.

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My name is Francis Zier, and today we are speaking with Leah Haberman, a consultant, teacher, speaker, and newsletter writer who teaches brands how to interface with social media and creators, and teaches creators how to interface with brands.

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She's sort of a platform whisperer. Her newsletter, In Case You Missed It, is a must-read for frequent and thorough, yet still brief, updates on changes happening to platforms, on new platforms rising.

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Um, must-read in the creator economy and social media marketing spaces. This was a really good conversation. Hope you enjoy.

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[upbeat music] So I was listening to your appearance on another podcast where you posited that every creator has a sort of three to four-year shelf life that is based on, one, like, um, their, the f- a fresh, the fresh face factor, right?

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Like other people come in that kind of overtake them, and then also the technology factor where maybe this person was really good at Vine, and then Vine goes away.

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Or, you know, they're really good at a, a certain type of Instagram reels, and then there are major algorithm shifts that mean they become less relevant. And I think you were...

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This was like you were saying this both to an audience of brand people and of creator people.

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To creator people, it's make sure that you are constantly building new things, and I think to brand people, it's like strike while the iron is hot.

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Don't plan for like two years of like, you know, "Oh, should we work with..." Just do it. Um, so tell me about this three to four-year shelf life theory.

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I mean, listen, it's like anything with like a content format, a platform, like we all wanna go all in on something for a while, but then people get bored. People... Something new comes out, something shinier comes out.

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And so, you know, we love everything until we don't love it, and we wanna move on to the next thing. You think of trends, trends are so quick now. Mm-hmm.

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Um, and I'm, I'm sure, I, you know, I, I feel a little conflicted saying this, 'cause I'm sure it's not great for creators who are thinking like, "What? I have a three to four sh- year shelf life?

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Like what does that mean?" Um, it is very hard to be the most popular, engaging, fascinating person that brands wanna partner with consistently.

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Which is why if you talk to any, you know, agent, talent manager, they're always saying, "Build your own business on the side." Yeah.

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"Do the brand partnerships, but at a cert- certain point you're gonna eclipse brand partnerships.

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You'll either get too big for them, or they're gonna wanna partner with somebody new, somebody younger, somebody newer, somebody on a different platform." Somebody whose audience they haven't saturated yet. Exactly.

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And so that, at that point, they're gonna shift their dollars to this other creator. That's when you've got this business that you've been growing in the background that you then launch. You've got a clothing line, a,

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mm, consulting business, um, I don't know, fitness videos. You've got so- an app. You launch your own app. There are very few people, if you think about it, and I was trying to think of who bucks this trend.

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Like who is the opposite? Who could you throw at me and be like, "You're totally wrong." Um- Well, I'll say, I'll say really quickly, the, the examples- Yeah...

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you gave of the 1% of people who successfully, you know, build these bus- you said the Emma Chamberlains and the MrBeasts.

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I think another one, the, uh, as we record, the interview that just came out a couple days ago, the Creator Spotlight interview, was Caspar Lee.

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Big, I, I don't know if you would say that's like wave one or wave two of YouTubers, right? But he was huge. He, he's still, according to Social Blade, is, it's like the 750th about.

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It's in the 700s, um, most subscribed YouTube channel with 6.2. Yeah. He... Maybe he's posted since and deleted, but there's no new video for the last six years, right?

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Um, and what he did, like talking to him, h- he has like four businesses he's a co-founder of, and none of them... I mean, he fou- you know, he founded two of them at least while he was still fully a creator.

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But he was like, "Yeah, none of that was like this intentional exit. I just kind of like opportunity was there and I took it, and, and now I don't have to make videos with my face in them [laughs] anymore."

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Wh- which is great. Usually there needs to be something to tie it to, and I was thinking of Marques Brownlee. Mm.

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And the reason that I think Marques Brownlee has been able to remain so popular for so long, and so relevant, is because it's very much tied to what he's covering. Mm. He covers technology, right?

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And technology keeps evolving. Yeah. So just naturally what he's talking about evolves and stays current and timely. He's a service journalist- It's a servi-... is what he is. Yeah.

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He is a service journalist tied very much to a very contemporary service.

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Like whatever the technology is that we're concerned with, that we're talking about, that we're excited by this year, that's what he's talking about. That helps, I think, make him really relevant.

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I mean, besides, he's a great creator. Like not taking anything away from- Yeah... from Marques Brownlee, he's a great creator, like I think he's very engaging.

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He's a lot of people's favorite creator for a reason, but I also think it's what he covers.

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Whereas, you know, if you're a lifestyle creator, for example, and you go through different phases of life, and maybe people don't wanna follow you into different phases of life.

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You know, like if people follow you and they're very much into like your dating life. Mm. Well, like once you get married or once you have kids- [laughs]...

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or, you know, like have a mortgage, like that's not as sexy and as exciting. Maybe that's not what they want from you. They came to you specifically for like the dating horror stories.

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When you can no longer deliver that, you'll get some people that'll hang around 'cause they've just become loyal to you the person, but a lot of people are gonna say, "Hey, this has shifted. You know what?

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I'm gonna f- go follow this other creator."Who's still talking about dating horror stories? You're gonna get some people who will just drop off. You know, you got audience churn just naturally. Yeah.

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Um, you're not necessarily attracting a new audience or a younger audience if you're ta- And like, look, it happens to us all. Like [laughs] we all age. We all settle down. We all go from like,

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I don't wanna say we go from really fun to, like, really, um, I think- Well, it's a, this is a classic model... to, to adulting People grow more conservative as they age, right? We, we grow more traditional maybe. Yeah.

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And we kind of go into, we settle down, and, like, that's a natural life progression. That does not do so well on camera. Like, good for life, not good for content. Um, so

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for, like, all of those reasons, you've gotta think about if you're a creator, yes, strike while the iron is hot, try and get as much as you can during a specific amount of time, and you don't necessarily...

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I mean, a lot of times I don't even think creators have an exit strategy. I think- Yeah... to your point, it'll just be presented.

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It'll, will just appear organically, and they'll realize, "Hey, I'm making more money here," or, "This kind of, these types of brands wanna work with me," or, "Somebody's just offered me some sort of partnership," or, um, you know, like, a business partnership, and like, "Maybe I wanna pursue this and become- Yeah...

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a startup founder." And so I think a lot of times creators don't even consciously think, "Okay, what is my exit plan?" I think it's just presented to them, and they take it.

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And the other ones, you know, then you've got the people that do succeed, the Marques Brownlee, the Emma Chamberlain, the, the MrBeast, and then you've got other people that kind of just figure out something else to do.

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They become marketers because they can tap into all of the knowledge- Because they've learned to do that, yeah... that they, they've learned to do it. They can leverage what they learned while they were creators. Um,

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so yeah. I, I think it's just, it's like, it's the realities of life. It shouldn't dissuade you.

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Still, you know, go for it, enjoy it, make it last as long as you possibly can, but you should have some sort of vision or understanding of, like, where you're going or at some point that you will have to figure out where you're going.

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Yeah. So I mean, w- if there's a three to four-year shelf life for any given creator, right, that doesn't really matter and might even be beneficial for the platforms, right?

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For whom, like, okay, we've got, as long as we have a stream of content coming in and more and more people coming in, um, which I, I mean, that's one of my favorite topics here is, like, the r- the power relationship, the labor relationship between a creator and the platforms.

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Creators are basically sharecroppers for platforms if they're not building businesses off of platforms, right? Yeah. Um, so you are sort of a, a, I might say a platform whisperer.

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I mean, I go to your newsletter for, like, here- I appreciate that. Yeah. No, I, I mean, yeah. That's cool.

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I go to your newsletter for, like, here is the quick download on, like, what is happening with all the primary platforms, uh, right now.

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Um, and when we were talking previously, you told me about a couple models you have for evaluating, basically, uh, whether platforms are full of shit, [laughs] uh, whether that's an entirely new platform or a, um, a specific update from a, from a given platform.

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So let's start first with, like, evaluating whether or not an entirely new platform is, is, is worth investing in, basically, right? And so I'm gonna, I'm gonna quote you, and then I'll let you, uh, speak on it.

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So you say, "For new apps, you look at whether or not it appeals to teenage girls as a predictor of mainstream success, a sort of Maslow's hierarchy of needs for teens, which is, first, is it fun and easy to use?

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Two, does it allow them to express themselves and identify with others? And three, is it cool? Are there other teens around, around and no parents?" Yes. [laughs] So tell me about it. That's the important part, yeah.

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[laughs] Um, listen, I think teen girls are an amazing predictor of what is going to eventually rise to mainstream success. Um, if you look at new apps, you mentioned all the criteria that I'm looking at.

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The, the thing about teen girls is they spend, statistically they tend to spend more time online and on social media- Mm... and are more engaged in it than any other demographic.

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So, like, they're very much into connecting and communicating over these apps. We know that they're gonna brace it, embrace it.

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Um, they also, you know, wherever teen girls are, teen boys tend to follow or show up, uh, at some point. They've got disposable income, right? They don't have these mortgages. They're not settled down.

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[laughs] So it's like they've got the time to spend and explore and play and have fun with it. Um, and eventually they age into being women who control household income.

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So they're a really good indicator of if the teen girls love it, there's a very good chance that it will appeal to a mainstream audience, and that we will see people adopting this, um, you know, kind of following in the trail of teen girls.

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But there are those really sp- specific criteria that it has to appeal to them, and it can't be, um... I'm thinking of, like, Lemon8.

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You know, when, when TikTok launched Lemon8, it's, you saw there were a bunch of young women on it, but, like, they were all paid creators. Mm. So that's not really a great indicator.

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Like, all of this- That's called astroturfing, right? [laughs]... has to happen. Yes, all of this has to happen, like, very organically and naturally. Like, are they into it?

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Are they into it authentically without having been paid for this opinion? Um, and that's a great indicator of, like, yeah, whether or not an app is gonna take off and how successful it's gonna be.

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This, when I was reading this, like, this struck me as a problem with BlueSky, right, which is, like, not cool.

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I don't know if there are teens on there, but it's definitely all parents, so to speak, right, to put it in, in your terms. And which I, I hadn't really thought of it in those terms.

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But, like, BlueSky maybe is failing to have this organic, you know, wellspring of success becau- because it's just a place for the adults. It's like a, it's not cool. If there's no, yeah, cool factor there,

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how are you getting a new audience? You might get, you know, the people that left X- Yeah... or people that are just d- generally disgruntled, or maybe people who are looking for news.

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And, like, there's nothing wr- I mean, like, that's me. I'm not saying that there's- Yeah... anything wrong with that audience. Um, but it's not a growth strategy.

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You're not gonna- This is more about the ability for the platform to be successful at scale long term. Yes, exactly.

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And that's why I always say mainstream success because, you know, there are some niche platforms that can pop up and don't necessarily need to appeal to teenage girls, and that's totally fine.

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But if you're, you know, if you wanna be the next TikTok, the next Instagram, the next YouTube, for example, like, these are the things that you wanna be thinking about. Hi there.

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My name's Tom, and I'm the producer of the Creator Spotlight podcastLater in this episode, Leah's going to give us her 2026 predictions for the creator economy.

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We'd like you to let us know what you think of her predictions in the comments.

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And on top of that, let us know what you'd like to see from us in 2026, what kinds of guests you'd like to see, what kinds of topics you'd like us to discuss, and whatever you think would make the show better.

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So if you haven't already, scroll down and subscribe, and then leave us a comment with what you'd like to see in the new year. Okay. Back to the episode with Leah.

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Another thing I hadn't really thought of before, um, that I was thinking of while, while reading this when you sent it over is, like, you know, when I was in high school, I got on F- I mean, like ninth grade, 2009, I got on Facebook, and okay, this is cool.

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And then by, I don't know, seven, eight years later, I'm right out of college, I'm off Facebook, and I- I'm all in on Instagram. Um, and my, my mom's not on Instagram yet, right? And then now she is.

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And I mean, now I'm, like, I'm 31, so I'm, I'm just, I'm, I'm washed. And Instagram is, you know, what my, what Facebook would've been 10 years ago, whatever. I share photos on there for my friends and family.

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Um, but this, my, my... That's besides the point. My point is, like, at the time, that was valuable to me that these platforms were cool, and there was teens and no adults around, right?

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Um, but what it kind of implies is that there will constantly, as long as, like, we're in the, like, phone, social media era, you know, there will constantly be a new appetite for platforms that adults have not already, like, taken over, right?

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Which to me it's like, oh, you know, we're settled right now with TikTok, YouTube, you know, Twitch, Instagram, whatever, these, these platforms. Um, and I'm like, I almost can't even see, like, new ones coming up.

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But this implies that there, like, is this, like, base need in society for new platforms. That hadn't really occurred to me. Which there are new platforms.

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Like, whenever I talk to anybody with teenag- teenage daughters, um, there are new platforms percolating that, you know, they're testing. Um, there's the Gas app, which was like- Yes...

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very specifically for- Nikita Bier, right? He was the guy who started that. Yes. Mm-hmm. And, and he sold that to, um, Snapchat, I think. I, I don't wanna get that wrong. So fa- somebody fact-check me.

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Let me, I'm gonna fact-check you right now live on here. Discord bought Gas. Oh, okay. There you go. Yeah. Discord. I, I knew it was somebody, some, like, cool community. Um, but yeah. So there are new apps popping up.

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I think there's also alternate platforms or alternate methods of communication, like gaming platforms, um, Roblox- Mm... Fortnite, Minecraft. So, like, it doesn't necessarily need to be in the model of another Instagram.

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Um, teens love Pinterest. Yeah. It's their fastest-growing demographic. Mm-hmm. So it's like they might also rediscover an old platform and essentially take it over.

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The thing with Pinterest is, and pretty much any platform that has an algorithm, I don't get to see the teen girl stuff. So it's very curated to what they're interested in. Mm.

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So in that way, it can feel like your parents aren't there. Snapchat, also very hard for your parents to monitor and participate in Snapchat, which is why I think it tends to do so well with teens. Yeah.

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Because, like, even if your mom creates an account, like- You can close the door... yeah, how she's finding you, how she's seeing what you're doing. Um, so it's like there a, there are a lot of different ways.

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And I think, like, we can't look at the current, like, YouTube, TikTok, and Instagram and be like, "Oh, the next platform's gonna look just like that."

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It's like a photo and vid-video sharing app that everyone can log, uh, into. Like, it's probably not gonna look like that. We just don't know yet.

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In the same way that, like, back in 2017, could we know that Musical.ly was gonna turn into TikTok- Yeah... and become the massive success?

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Anybody that talks about, like, a 10-year plan, it's like, no, what are you doing? Like, we need, like, things in, like, increments of, like, a year, two-year, three-year plan. I wouldn't even say five years.

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I think that's already too far out, and there's too many variables and things that could happen in the next five years to safely predict like, yeah, it's gonna be this platform or a new platform, or, you know, whatever it is.

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Yeah. So, um, you have this other model you gave me, which is seven signs to look for- Yeah. [laughs]... for a given- Yes... feature update on a platform.

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I would say that this also, like, you can kind of abstract and warp this a little bit to what you're just talking about, about, like, like, bigger platform changes over the years.

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Like, it, it can be on, like, the platform scale, not just the feature scale. Um, but I'll read it out. And the, this is- Yeah... this is very much, like, in order. I think one, each one follows from the previous.

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So, um, to, to, to make sure a new feature update is legit, one, the CEO talks about it. Two, the platform puts it in writing with a blog post. Three, tools are built to support it. Four, improvements roll out.

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Five, the platform announces successful usage numbers. Um, six, the data is reinforced by other independent sources. And seven, brands, creators, and app users start talking about it.

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And so b- before I hand it back to you, the one thing I wanna point out is, like, it seems like, you know, at step seven when brands, creators, and app users start talking about it, like, that's when you, that's when you are behind the curve, and, like, the wave has maybe crested on, on, like, really getting in on, like, adopting this thing early and taking advantage of, like, the boost the platform can give a new feature, right?

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It seems like what you w- as a creator or a brand, what you want to look for is step C, tools are built to support it.

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Like, that's probably, like, you, you know, you've, you've waited long enough to make sure that there's something to stand on, but there's all the opportunity of taking of, of early mover advantage still. Yes.

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Which is, I mean, that's a t- particular type of brand that's an early mover, you know, that takes advantage of that, like, early mover kind of opportunity, um, or early adopters, and not everybody's like that.

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So for me, the list was kind of more depending on what kind of creator or brand you are, you kinda step in at different times. And the way that I came up- Mm...

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with this list is I get, I read tons of information every week to write my newsletter. I'm reading other articles, other newsletters. I also now get pitched by the PR teams at all of the platforms. Mm-hmm.

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So I'm constantly getting updates directly from them, sometimes even before the updates come out, and it's, like, embargoed information. Yeah.

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They're like, "Listen, we're gonna share this with you, but you can't talk about it till Tuesday, Wednesday," whatever it is.

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Um, there's gotta be, at, like, and as I started getting these releases, I was like, "I gotta have some sort of, like, way to weed through this because-" Do I include this or not?And, uh, er, sometimes I'll include it, but, like, I'm not gonna, like, rave about it because it's like you've got to evaluate.

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Like Instagram, I mean, Instagram rolls out like 19 different things each week. You can't come out to people and be like, "Like breaking news, game changer. This is amazing."

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'Cause, like, then you lose all credibility, and you're like, "Okay, I gotta figure out, like-" Mm-hmm... what are the things that are gonna move the needle or make an impact?

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And so I started looking at, like, what does Mark Zuckerberg talk about? Like, what is he posting on Threads or in his broadcast channel, um, versus, like, what does Adam Mosseri post? Mm-hmm.

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And, like, that to me also speaks volumes, where I think Mark Zuckerberg is very concerned with the future of Meta, um, and I think Adam Mosseri is very concerned also with the future of Meta, but primarily with Instagram.

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Yeah. Like, that's his number one. That's his baby. I look at what Neal Mohan talks about with YouTube. He's been talking about living room watching since 2002, 2023, uh, or sorry, 2022, '23.

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Um, and, and all of a sudden now we're getting these, like, Ne- numbers out of Nielsen that they're, like, the number one in streaming watch time for something like, I don't know, 14 months or something.

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Um, and so it's like, oh, he did... He talked about that. So I started looking at that and understanding, like, and if they don't mention it, it's like, mm, is this really gonna get supported, like, top down?

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Like maybe, maybe not. You know, are we gonna see the tools roll out to support it? Mm, I'm not sure. Um, I think, uh, you know, the, the blog post as well, it's like if there's no blog post...

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And for the longest time, Threads, Threads has had no sort of anchor, um, or posts about it, and it was kind of like it felt very much like, look, you're not even committing to, like, web space for this. So, like,

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you know, it, it, it took a while. And so I think it's like these are just the, the signals that you look for to understand- Mm-hmm... how much does the company believe in this? How much are they investing in this?

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Um, the numbers, I think the usage numbers are really important, and I'll... This is the reason why. It's not just that it has to have a massive audience or immediate adoption, it's that it has to be the right audience.

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And so going back to the teenage girls, if they're sharing numbers about Gen Z, for example- Mm... LinkedIn and Pinterest have been, you know, beating that drum all year.

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Gen Z is our fastest growing demographic on both platforms, on LinkedIn and Pinterest.

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If Gen Z is the fastest growing demographic or very much taken with a platform or a feature, that is gonna get announced because that is the audience that everyone is going after now.

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You know, Meta- Well, 'cause let me just say, too, Gen Z is- Yeah... about 15 to 29 or 30 years old now. Yes. I think the youngest are around 15, the oldest are around 29. Um,

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the only reason that I don't say Alpha is because technically everybody's supposed to be 13 before they create an account. Yeah.

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And so I think that's, like, that's held us back from, like, marketing or bragging about Alpha numbers because we're kinda like, technically they're not supposed to be on the platform, so like- That's like 2030 we'll start talking about that.

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Oh, I think, I think even before. I think, like, as enough of them move into the, like, 13 to 18 range, all of a sudden Gen Z is gonna have a very short shelf life, and it's gonna be like, "What is Gen Alpha doing?"

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[laughs] But it's like, look, if they're not talking about Gen Alpha or Gen Z on the platform, um, it, it's, it's concerning.

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If they're not using a specific feature, it's concerning 'cause that means it's grown-ups like you and I that are using these things and, like, how much growth opportunity is there in that? We also have less time. Yeah.

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I'm not gonna sit around, and, like, Instagram just came out with a really cool animated collage feature. I created one. I'll probably create some more. But I'm not spending four hours on a Friday night creating- Yeah...

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collages like Gen Z is on Pinterest, for example, or like they might on Instagram. So to me, that is one of the most important predictors of, like...

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Because ultimately, if the audience isn't there, even if the platform supports this new feature, even if they've, like, put investment and, and resources behind it, if the audience doesn't show up,

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they're ultimately gonna kill it. And that's why we see so, you know, Instagram cycle through so many things, so many different spinoff apps, HGTV, or was it HG- IGTV. I'm like- No. [laughs]...

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no, it's not the Home- I forgot about that... Home Garden Network. Completely. [laughs] It's IGTV. Um, like Boomerangs, um, I don't know.

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They've had so many different, like, either spinoff apps or different features that they've rolled out. They rolled out Notes. Mm. Nobody understands... Nobody, nobody I know uses Notes.

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Nobody cares about Notes, but Notes over indexes with teenagers. Uh- So- Oh, wait, wait. I, I... When you say Notes, all I can think of is Substack Notes or, like, my Notes app on my phone.

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[laughs] I literally don't know what you're talking about. [laughs] Oh, so there's at least 12 different areas within Instagram where you can have Notes. You can have, like...

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And these are notes that are- Oh, I know- I mean-... the ones, like if I'm in my DMs and there's, like, at the top. Yes. Yeah. You see the little note above- Mm-hmm... your, your profile.

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You can leave notes on the feed, on videos on the feed. Um, you can have, like, there's- On stories... birthday notes. On sto- exactly. Yeah. On stories, but also in the feed. You could also add notes to- To-...

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videos, which is different than comments. Yeah. Um, and again, I think, like, the fact that you're like- [laughs]... what even is Notes?

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Like, no, no grownup I know uses Notes, and anytime anybody talks about Notes, they're like, "What is this? It's so stupid." But it over indexes with teens, so they have not stopped rolling out different Note options.

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There could be video notes, text notes, music notes. Like, once they see something sticks with teenagers, they're like, "Okay, how many ways can we insert this into the user experience?"

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And so I feel like that's kind of where we're at right now with Notes. Um, and if the teens don't love it, then, like, they're not gonna... It's not gonna be adopted, um, and it's probably gonna be sunsetted- Mm...

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at some point. Um, and they've been very open about this.

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There was, like, a product manager that said at, I think it was at VidCon or South by Southwest, and they were like, "Yeah, like Gen Z is driving our product roadmap."That is who we're trying to appeal to.

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It, it, like, it's... They're very transparent about it, so it's not like a dark secret or anything. It's like- Yeah...

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no, like, they wanna appeal to teenagers, and whatever teenagers respond to, that's what they're gonna do. Have you ever wished advertisers would come find you for a change?

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I, I wanna, I wanna pivot the conversation here quick, though- Yeah... to, um, I'm gonna say MVP and LVP, most valuable platform, least valuable platform, to creators specifically.

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Speaking to creators, which for the sake of this question let's define as, like, people whose trade is reliant on producing content, getting eyeballs on that content, and monetizing it in various ways, I'm curious if what you would say is the, the most creator-friendly and the least creator-friendly platform at the moment.

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Okay, so creator-friendly- Reframe, reframe as needed. Yeah, yeah. Like, creator-friendly and, and financially viable, I would say YouTube, TikTok, Snapchat, and then Instagram. Hmm.

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Um, YouTube, I mean, as long as I've been working with creators, I'm like, "If you don't have a YouTube, like, what are you doing? Get on YouTube, start building." There, it is never too late.

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Like, the best time to have started was, like, what is it, yesterday, today- Yeah... or tomorrow or something. Um- It was 10 years ago. Second-best time is today. Yeah, yeah, yeah. That's it. Mm. Thank you.

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Thank you for articulating that. Um, however, if you asked me, you know, like, where people should be, I would also say kind of the number one spot is Instagram. Mm.

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Even though maybe it's the least friendly platform for creators, it is the number one place where influencer marketing dollars are spent and where marketers want to run their influencer marketing campaigns, like sponsored content, partnerships.

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Um, so for that purpose, in terms of partnerships, I would say Instagram. Hmm. For, uh, ad revenue, for, I think just effort, um, extended to creators, I would say YouTube, and then TikTok and Snapchat fall in between.

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The problem with, with Instagram, and, and, you know, stop me if we, we need to move on from this, um, this is not supposed to be, like, a bitch session about Instagram- [laughs] Oh, go. Or like- Please, spill.

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[laughs] They are the incumbent. They are, they are, like... I think in their minds they're too big to fail. Mm.

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They're like, "We know that we are the number one place that brands wanna spend money, the number one place that the influencer marketing campaigns are gonna be run."

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They put very little effort, in my opinion, into, you know, whether it's, like, hosting workshops, um, events, uh, outreach to creators, like, writing newsletters or kind of updates. They're getting better, certainly.

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I think within the last year they've gotten better with, like, their creator accounts. Um, but you just think about, like, TikTok and YouTube, they're constantly having... Like, YouTube's got their Creator Collective.

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They're having parties in every city. TikTok's constantly having different events or parties for creators. YouTube gives them plaques when they reach certain milestones, like physical plaques- Yeah...

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versus, like, Instagram's little, you know, in-app badges. Well, wait, wait, wait. Let me stop you. Have you read... As we record, I mean, this episode will come out- Yeah...

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about a month after we record, but as we record this morning, they've announced Rings, um, which- Yeah...

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you know, to summarize for the, for the listener quickly, it's kind of like the, the YouTube, like, you know, 100,000 creators, um, uh, subscribers plaque or whatever.

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There will be a physical ring designed by the fashion d- designer Grace Wales Bonner, as well as, like, some profile situation where there's, like, a ring on your profile.

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Um, but I pulled up, uh, the Published Press email from today, because the way they covered this I thought was really interesting.

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Uh, they, they [laughs] chose to, to put in three quotes from creators who were really derisive of it. So I'm gonna read these three off. I'm, I'm quoting the Published Press here.

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Um, Instagram said the program is meant to uplift creators' content, but creators don't seem sold. "How about they pay us instead?

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Bring back the Creator Fund," travel creator Brooke Johnson said on their Instagram post about the program. "IG just keeps giving us things that none of us asked for," Salary Transparent Street said.

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And finally, "Very cool concept, but how would they judge accounts? Who qualifies?" film creator Brennan Klein com- commented.

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Which the last thing I'll say before handing it back to you is, um, the way they're judging accounts is a panel of 13 judges, which includes Spike Lee, Marques Brownlee, Adam Mosseri, um, Grace Wales Bonner.

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It's mostly, like, traditional culture figures, um, who are, like, judging based on cultural merit, not some, like, milestone. It's, it's vibes-based, you could say, right? It's, it's gate...

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It's, it's, uh, it's a return to gatekeeping, which I think is really interesting, because it's like Instagram trying to r- like, you know, platforms are media companies as much as they're platforms, right?

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And this is Instagram, like, playing role, that role of media company with this, like, internal Webbys. Yes. Um, now, how do you judge... Like, with the Webbys, people submit material or, like- Yeah...

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ads or videos or whatever it is they, they want you to judge, websites. Um, there's three billion people. At last count, Instagram announced there's three billion people on the platform.

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So, like, how are 13 people evaluating three billion accounts? And like, okay, realistically, like, there's probably a good billion of those are, like, bots or something like that. Yeah.

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But still, there are anywhere from, depending on who you talk to, there's anywhere from two million to, like, 300 million self-identifying creator accounts.How are 13 people judging that?

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And like you said, what is the criteria? I think the problem with Instagram, and this goes back to the lack of transparency

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with YouTube and to a degree with TikTok, there's much more transparency around, like, depending on how many views you get, this is the percentage that you get in terms of ad revenue.

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Like, here's how you make your money.

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Instagram has always been a black box around their creator fund, around their verification process, around anything, like any way to get ahead or kind of like be successful on Instagram is, like, shrouded in mystery.

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Yeah. You're just supposed to accept it and be like, "Maybe I get the creator fund, maybe I don't. Maybe I get verified, maybe I don't." There's no transparency around how they do things.

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So this to me is kind of like in line with, we've got like our, our coven, our tribe of like, you know, 13 like wonderful, magical people who...

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Yeah, like yeah, Eva Chen, the like head of Instagram's, uh, fashion, uh, is there. Like, there are, they're great people. It's a great panel, but it's like, yeah, how are you judging? What is the criteria?

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Um, and also they have already chosen. There's... It's already, essentially like they announced it and then like a day later they were like, "Oh, and the people have already been chosen." Yeah.

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So, like, you don't even get to, you don't even get to try.

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Um, and they chose 25 people, which again, it's not exactly like YouTube giving you a plaque because this is limited to 25 people, and clearly there are more than 25 amazing creators on Instagram who are achieving success, whether that's financial success or creative success.

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Um, so, like, I don't know.

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I think, well, I, I think there's like kind of a, a confusion within Instagram or a, a or like, you know, lack of commitment to being like, are we a social platform for interacting with your friends and family, or are we a creator platform, right?

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I, you would, you might have a better grasp on this with me, and maybe I'm like misremembering, but I think I remember, um, when last time Adam Mosseri was on Colin and Samir, the Colin and Samir podcast, right, like, he was talking a bit about this and how like, yeah, like shares are up if like maybe engagement on the main feed is down, and it's like we are a socialize...

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a social, a, a platform for socializing with your friends in the DMs, right? But then the, the, like Reels is more creator-based, right? Yeah.

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So this seems like them trying to plant some- like a, a flag in the sand of like, this is the type of creator platform we are, but it's this top down dic- top down dictation as opposed to what you're saying about TikTok's much more transparent or even YouTube's very, like, transparent and transactional, transactional in a healthy way, where it's like you understand this and we all know what's going on, um, way of compensating creators for their contribution to the platform.

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Yes. Instagram is like, I don't know, some cool kids club where you're just like, "How do I get in? How do I be a member?" Like, "You can't sit with us." Yeah.

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"Maybe we'll let you sit with us, but you, we don't really understand why. Do we wear pink on Wednesdays?" Like, we don't, we don't know. And so it's not that I don't hate the Rings program.

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I kind of, I love that, like, having an incentive, having awards. Like, everybody loves that. Yeah. You know, I love the Golden Globes. I love the Emmys. We like to win 'em. I love the Oscars. Mm-hmm.

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Like, everybody likes to win awards. I love to watch awards. I hope there's a red carpet associated, but I just think like- Mm... it's, it's, uh, too little too late and just very kind of like

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seems like a just, uh, some kind of weird initiative where they're like, "Look, we support creators." Yeah.

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"And we're gonna give away 25 rings," and it's like 25 people out of at least two million people who id- self-identify as creators. Like, that's a drop in the bucket. Um, so- Yeah.

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And who gets the one ring to rule them all anyways? Um, [laughs] I, I wanna- Probably Adam Mosseri. [laughs] It'll be... He'll wear it on like a chain around his neck with- Oh my God...

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along with his cardigans during, during one of those videos. He does love his cardigans. Uh, okay. Y- this morning you put out your, um, the, the beginning of your survey for 2026, 2026 predictions. Yeah.

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And I, I wanna talk about that, and I wanna talk about your 2025, um, predictions at the beginning of the year and, and how that's played out. But one thing I wanna focus on first is, um, looking through that,

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I, I actually, I, I had written a question about this before I opened it and then so it changed it, but in my mind, for my work, right, the four formats, the four media that really matter for me are short-form video, long-form video Yeah...

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long-form audio, and long-form writing. So I had written that down. And then in your survey, you list seven formats, and you're asking people like, "Which one is your focus for this year?"

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And the seven formats you list are text, single images, carousels, short-form video less than 60 seconds, mid-form video less than 10 minutes, and long-form video more than 10 minutes, and then finally live stream.

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So I was struck by your inclusion of mid-form video, um, carousels as a distinct format, and then text being just text, no short-form text, no long-form text.

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So I guess I'm curious why these are the seven formats that you, um, included. Um, okay. [laughs] Now I've gotta like retroactively like assign some really like deep meaning to this. Um- No, it doesn't have to be.

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I mean, it, I mean, like, like- Look-... I had the four that were totally different, right? And that's just how I'm, I'm viewing- Right... the world right now. Text, I was thinking of either Threads or possibly Substack.

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Mm. Yeah. But mostly like a Threads or a LinkedIn where- Mm... you're gonna be posting text posts.

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Um, carousels, and I'm actually planning to write a newsletter about this, carousels are tremendously effective, especially for accounts of a certain size, and people are seeing a lot of success with carousels, and yet we are so hammered over the head with Reels and like video, video, video, that it's like I'm, I'm actually planning to write something about this because it's like we are overlooking carousels as like a really valuable- Also on LinkedIn, by the way.

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Yes. Mm. Well, LinkedIn and Instagram now at this point it's almost like you got a short-form video, you got a Reel, put it up on LinkedIn. You got a carousel, put it up on LinkedIn and Instagram.

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Um, yes, carousels are performing tremendously well on Instagram and LinkedIn. Um, mid-form video,

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I feel like that's kind of a, a trend that's growing, and some people actually consider what I say mid-form video, a lot of people think that that's long form.

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Like, people will now, creators will say like, "I'm doing long-form video," or brands will say that they're doing long-form video, and it's like four minutes, and you're like- Yeah, or a 10-minute video essayR- right, and it's like that's not in like the classic kind of old-school YouTuber sense of the word long-form video.

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So I was trying to look at like, you know, who's doing these kind of like middle, mid-form, I guess- Mm-hmm... videos. Um, and so yeah, we'll see. Was there any...

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Wait, what was the other- Uh- I'm trying to, text or- So text-... make long carousels... I guess live stream, but live stream makes total sense. Um, no y- you covered it. Yeah.

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I guess, I mean, the most interesting, um, for me was like that there was one form of text and then three forms of video, and that's because I, you know, am a writer.

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[laughs] And- and like, yeah, I write a newsletter, but I, uh, I would say 90 to 95% of my audience are social media managers, digital marketers, you know, people in the marketing department. Yeah.

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Um, and writing is not really in favor right now, um, unless you write a newsletter, which literally in the last two days I've had so many requests for rate sheets or like interest- Mm...

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in running newsletter ads in November, like, around the Black Friday- Yeah... which has not happened previously.

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Like, I've had sponsors, but nobody's ever cared about Black Friday specifically, and all of a sudden it's like one qu- you know, kind of one query after another about like what does it cost to run newsletter, sponsored newsletters around, like, throughout November.

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So I thought that was really interesting. So that text, yes, maybe next year I'll break it down into like short-form, mid-form, and long-form text.

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Um, but this year I didn't really feel it was like, had enough significant- Yeah... traction yet. The podcasting, I kind of asked about that in another question in like- Mm... are you gonna be focusing on podcasting?

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Again, there aren't enough brands, like, there aren't enough social media managers and marketers who are doing podcasts for that, for me to have considered it as a content format.

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But I di- I was curious, like, are you gonna start writing newsletters? Are you gonna start launching podcasts? Like, I was- Mm...

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curious about that, but I don't feel like it, it's at the same level as like I know short-form vi- video is gonna be like a landslide, and so, um, yeah. Yeah. Well, no, I mean, since- It's kind of inevitable...

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it's in the context of your audience, which as you said is- Yes... mostly, like, brand marketers, social media people, people on the brand side, not necessarily, um, creators, and those- Yes...

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people are generally still more inter- like, a- and actually, I wanna, I wanna revisit the Instagram thing a little bit.

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You said that, like, we were talking a little bit about how Instagram is not the best platform for creators right now and such, and then how marketers, it's where marketers wanna spend the most money, right? Yeah.

242
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Um, is that like some misunderstanding by marketers? Why, why are they not, like, putting all their money onto, you know, Linke- onto LinkedIn, onto newsletters, onto podcasts?

243
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Like, why is Instagram still the most pop- besides the fact of like the, uh, the metrics, you know, the depth of metrics you can get? Um, I literally think that, you know, brands are very slow to pivot.

244
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Um, individuals are like, look, if I wanna move my budget from one platform to another, or some portion of my budget, I've gotta, like, write up a plan. I've gotta go to my boss. Yeah. My boss has to go to his boss.

245
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That's gotta approved, gotta be approved. Somebody's gotta sign off on like, we are shifting from this.

246
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We don't even know how to spend money on Substack for, it's not that e- that easy to spend money on Substack, uh, for example, or like some other platform. We don't even know how to run ads there.

247
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We have to now hire an ad specialist. Yeah. Somebody who does LinkedIn thought leader ads, like, where are we finding that person?

248
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And so honestly, I, like, I don't wanna say it's inertia, but I just think it's like- [laughs]...

249
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it takes so long to shift your budget, and if you've recently started advertising on TikTok, 'cause you finally got approval- Yeah...

250
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to run ads on TikTok, like the idea of now having to incorporate another platform, go through another round of like requests and, and, you know, signatures and whatever, um, I think that's a big part of it.

251
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I think like- Yeah. No, you're right...

252
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advertisers, marketers just get comfortable with a platform and a format and are like, until this is like completely, you know, no ROI from this platform or content format, like we are gonna ride this right to the very end.

253
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Yeah. It's, it's their, it's their CFOs who get comfortable with the format really. Yes. So this has been signed off on. Yeah. It's like on a spreadsheet somewhere, and like, no, we are not changing.

254
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Like, I don't think, yeah- Mm-hmm... CFOs are not at the pace of social and culture. Like, they're not- Yeah... operating at that pace. And bless their hearts. At all. We don't need them to be. Um, I, okay- Yeah...

255
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re- very, very quickly, a quick detour off of the general conversation into, into what you do, what are all the different ways that you currently make your living?

256
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I know there's the paid newsletter, you do consulting, you do speaking. Um, is that it, those three things? Paid newsletter, consulting, speaking. Uh, teaching. Oh, teaching, yes.

257
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I also, I mean, I don't know if you consider the, the speaking, uh, but I teach- No, separate... at UCLA Extension. So, um, not that there's not a ton of money in teaching. No, famously.

258
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So I [laughs] yeah, I would not say that that was like the bigger, uh, portion of my income- Yeah... um, or revenue. But like, yeah, teaching, consulting, speaking, and the newsletter. Mm-hmm.

259
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The newsletter you waited until your third year to turn on paid. I was wondering if you regret that in either the way of, I wish I'd done it earlier, or I wish I hadn't done it at all? Um, no. No regrets.

260
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I think I launched the newsletter to be a resource, especially for junior people. Mm.

261
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Okay, let me just preface this or kind of like w- walk back for a second and say there are two types of people that read my newsletter, very junior people or very senior people, executives, you know, leadership.

262
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Um, I think both of them need kind of like a bird's-eye view of like, just tell me quickly, I don't need like a whole in-depth analysis on like Instagram launching carousels. Just tell me like who does it appeal to?

263
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You know, why did it launch? How do I do it? And like if I want to, I will look further. And so I think like the type of content and the type of like

264
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high-level insights and bullet points that are needed are by very junior people- Mm... or by very senior people.

265
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Um, the newsletter was launched primarily for more junior people to kind of like empower them with information. Putting that behind a paywall I just feel really conflicted about.

266
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Um, I would rather not have them pay, I would rather have brands pay. Yeah. Um, essentially, like brands can afford it.Let's charge the man.

267
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Um, I would rather have somebody who's, like, a social media manager, a s- you know, solo social media manager at some company somewhere who has nobody else on his team, nobody else to ask- Mm...

268
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nowhere to go to turn to for answers. Like, I wanna be a resource for that person, and so putting stuff behind a paywall is kinda contrary to that. I don't regret having put up the paywall, but I...

269
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Kinda my ethos is, like, let's make most of it free, and then for people who really wanna level up or get more insights, we'll do the paid tier.

270
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The other thing is, I don't think, and I don't kn- I, I'm guessing at this, but I don't think that Google- Mm... or the LLMs crawl stuff that's behind a paywall.

271
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So if there's something that I really want to have rank in search, that I really wanna have get out there- Mm... um, I don't wanna put it behind a paywall. That's clever.

272
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I wrote a whole thing about SEO for social, and I was like,

273
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in thinking about SEO for social, like, you cannot put that behind a paywall because then it's never gonna surface for anybody that's searching for that information. So- Yeah... that, that was- This is actually...

274
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Really, really quickly, this is one thing about- Yeah... newsletter platforms, whether it's Substack, Beehiiv, I, I would s- I think Ghost too. Yeah.

275
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Um, you know, traditional media, whether it's The New York Times, The New Yorker, whatever, it's like, it's pretty easy to get around those paywalls, you know?

276
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L- l- you know, let he who has not gone around the paywall cast the first stone. Um, with newsletter platforms, it's very difficult. It's, it's nigh impossible.

277
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You have to get somebody to forward you the thing, you, or you have to pony up and pay. There's no, like...

278
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You know, one of my [laughs] one of my classic tricks is, like, you refresh the page and immediately hit stop loading, and then the paywall doesn't load, right? Maybe I shouldn't be saying that on mic.

279
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But- But you can't, you can't do that, uh, with [laughs] You know about the archive site too, right? I do. I do. I know about that as well. Okay, okay. That's the one that I usually use- Yes...

280
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to, like- But, but the point is- Yeah... you can't do that with- Yes... with, like, a, a newsletter, whether it's on Beehiiv, whether it's on Substack, whatever.

281
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It's like you have to pay, um, which I don't necessarily hear people talk enough about as, like, a very creator-friendly thing.

282
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Which, yeah, and that's also probably why Google and, like, the LLMs aren't crawling those- They can't... newsletters- No... because they can't. Um, and so I, like, I don't love that.

283
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I don't think that's necessarily great for us in terms of, like, discoverability. Um- Mm-hmm... and I do wish not one... Nobody's done this yet, I don't think, um, having, like, kinda pay as you go.

284
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A little bit like I think The Guardian has that- Yeah... where it's like, "Give us a dollar," or, like, Wikipedia is like, "We put this together for you." Like, "Please donate," or whatever and, um- That's coming...

285
00:45:47.196 --> 00:45:54.056
I don't know. That's coming. There's no... I, I mean, it, I hear more and more people talking about it. Like, that's coming. Um, let's talk about, okay- I would pay a dollar for every newsletter. Yeah.

286
00:45:54.076 --> 00:45:59.756
Would you- Me, too... pay a dollar for, like, I wanna read this. I don't wanna read all of your- Absolutely... paywalled content, but yeah.

287
00:45:59.956 --> 00:46:04.776
And I'd probab- I'd probably end up spending more money than [laughs] than if I just subscribed to a lot of stuff. Oh, 100%.

288
00:46:05.126 --> 00:46:15.336
[laughs] But, like, I still feel like I have control, and I maintain, like, my independence, and yeah, I, I choose. I choose who I pay, yeah. Have you ever wished advertisers would come find you for a change?

289
00:46:15.836 --> 00:46:26.176
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290
00:46:26.685 --> 00:46:37.256
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291
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292
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293
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Okay, let's talk about your five things to focus on in 2025 newsletter- Yeah... published on January 3rd of, of 2025, of course. Um, I'm gonna list out the five things.

294
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We can elaborate on them a little bit, and then I'm curious how you've seen these things play out. So number one was- Yes... don't make ads, make entertainment. Number two, hurry up and get on LinkedIn.

295
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Number three, embrace a social-first approach. That means putting your audience at the heart of everything you do.

296
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Number four, get in the game, which you're talking about, like, Fortnite and Roblox, uh, content activations related to that. And number five, start thinking of employees as influencers. Yes.

297
00:47:41.116 --> 00:47:52.196
Um, I will tell you the one that I think has actually happened is the LinkedIn. Mm. I think people have got it. I think creators, talent managers, creator attorneys, um, they're on LinkedIn.

298
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We're seeing B2B campaigns with thought leaders on LinkedIn. Like, I think LinkedIn is probably the one that has actually,

299
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uh, t- like, evolved or kind of like transpired in the way that I thought that it would or had predicted that it would. Um, the entertainment over ads, it's been slow. We're starting to see more of it now.

300
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Y- you're seeing people talk about, like, don't create content, create, like, content series. Mm-hmm. Um, like, yeah, be the enterpa- tainment. Don't be the ads. I think we're seeing that, but it took a really long time.

301
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I think it's only in the past couple of months, like Q3, Q4, that we're actually seeing that happen. Um, same way with employees as influencers. I think it took so... Like, I thought we were there in January. Yeah.

302
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I'm having conversations with different brands now about how we're gonna implement that in 2026. Mm. So it's happening, we just- I mean, uh, to interrupt you for a second. Like, for- Yeah...

303
00:48:39.396 --> 00:48:48.206
for probably four years, I've been at, at over two companies, I've been at companies where we're trying to do this, right? And, like, at my last job, there was a Slack channel where we, like, try... It was...

304
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And, you know, our head of content was leading it up and, like, pushing people, like, "Okay, you can post something like this and do this."

305
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And the difficult part about that was, like, it's hard to get people whose job is not posting already to, like, to, you know, e- to eat crow a little bit. You know, what's the, the line?

306
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It's like, um, [clicks tongue] don't kill the part of yourself that's cringe, kill the part of yourself that cringes.

307
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And it's hard to do that, and it's hard to, like, break through that wall of having posted, like, 100 times, and now finally you've posted something [laughs] that's, like, decent and gets five likes.

308
00:49:15.936 --> 00:49:24.295
Um, so yeah, so I, I, I, I totally agree. Uh, as somebody who's been, like, part of that now for a while, and, you know, who obviously- Yeah... works in content and does this post for a living anyways.

309
00:49:24.676 --> 00:49:37.128
Um, but I, I feel like, I mean, it'll, it will happen more and more, but it's still hard because-You have to find the right people. Not everybody is gonna be able to play employee as influencer. Yes.

310
00:49:37.168 --> 00:49:41.098
What I've seen is two different things. One is that companies are trying to nurture these- Yeah...

311
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aspiring influencers a little bit more, and so they're doing workshops, they're doing, you know, lunch and learn, like learning and development sessions to teach people more about social.

312
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Other- There are consultants that come in and do this. Yes. Uh- Yourself included... you know, me. Yeah. Like I, I have done this.

313
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I've gone into different companies and talked about, like, how are we gonna get your executives and your employees posting on LinkedIn, but like posting well beyond just, like, whatever- Yeah...

314
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your employee advocacy program is.

315
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Um, the other thing that we're seeing, and I think we are seeing this more and more, I'm seeing this more and more, is there are influencers within, like, United Airlines, Southwest Air- Airlines, the Army, for example.

316
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There were people within there that were employees, not necessarily posting about the company, but that, like, pilots who were, like, pilot influencers, sergeants who were,

317
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like, influencers within the Army, but not- Yeah... necessarily speaking specifically about the Army.

318
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Um, and I say that 'cause I sat in on a day-long workshop of, like, how are we gonna tap into these people that are actually existing influencers, and we don't even have to nurture them, but we have to find a way to work with them that's, like, beneficial to everybody all around and that, like, fits in naturally.

319
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If you've got a- For you, is, is, is the company bringing you in to say, like, "Hey, we know we have these people, and we're just trying to figure out how to activate them in a more formal way"?

320
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Or is it them saying, "Hey, we need to, like, how do we get people posting," and then you are being like, "Look, you already have them"? Um, I, I would say both. Yeah.

321
00:51:04.668 --> 00:51:16.228
But a lot of times, uh, there are companies who are very actively aware of, like, who are the big influencers, and there are companies or organizations that are, "Okay, yeah, how do we work with this person in a way that

322
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is not gonna end up, you know, like, there won't be any kind of, like, messiness?" Yeah. Um, and that it's gonna be, like, a good, positive, uh, experience for all involved.

323
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'Cause like, there is a little bit of risk in delegating, like, influencership to your employees. Um, and then you've got companies that get it totally wrong and are like, "No, do not post on social.

324
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Do not post about the company." I mean, you have, who was the girl? Miri the Siren. Okay. Um, yeah, when she- I know that Chick-fil-A or 7-Eleven had, had the- Yeah, yeah, yeah...

325
00:51:45.918 --> 00:51:49.168
had the, had a mess-up with her It was Miri the Siren. I think she worked at Chick-fil-A. Mm.

326
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And she was just reviewing her lunches, but very positively and talking about the company very positively, and they shut that down, and then she left and got brand deals with, like, Taco Bell and- And Raising Cane's, I think.

327
00:51:59.648 --> 00:52:05.078
Yeah, yeah, yeah, like other- It was some competitor, yeah. It was- Yeah, exactly... it was insane fumbling... the same competitors. And it was like, yes, exactly.

328
00:52:05.368 --> 00:52:17.908
So it's like, yeah, it's, it's helping companies see it as, like, a benefit or, like, um, an asset versus, like, a liability. Mm. Um, so yeah, I think that we're gonna see. It's just that, like, companies are slow.

329
00:52:18.028 --> 00:52:29.388
Like it's just- Yeah... taking a while to, like... So I think we'll see more of that in 2026. The one, like gaming, it hasn't really changed. I still think that that is gonna be a really viable place.

330
00:52:29.468 --> 00:52:32.538
I think a- uh, sports, athletics and athletes- Yeah...

331
00:52:32.548 --> 00:52:41.888
and gaming are gonna be two ways that we are gonna be reaching, speaking of Gen Alpha, like, give us five years, and then I think we're all gonna be a lot more focused on that, even more so than we are now.

332
00:52:42.528 --> 00:52:55.828
The one that did not, I was n- wrong about, um, and I will not even take accountability, it's not my fault I was wrong, it's the companies didn't get it, the whole we need to be social first, um, uh, companies just don't get it.

333
00:52:56.088 --> 00:53:03.018
I, I think, like, leadership doesn't get it. The idea of the social team's on the front lines. They're hearing what people are saying. Mm.

334
00:53:03.048 --> 00:53:17.028
They're hearing people talk about, like, the product, the distribution, the everything, um, and we should be taking that information and, like, sharing it back inward across the organization, um, and then reacting to that information.

335
00:53:17.388 --> 00:53:26.508
Like, that did not happen. I think a lot of people were just like, "We're social first. We post short-form video." I think it just, like, went over most people's heads, and they did not get it.

336
00:53:26.548 --> 00:53:36.698
It was a very popularly used term, um, and I've heard a lot of companies say this year, "We are social first," and I'm like, "Really? But are y- like, just posting on social does not mean you're social first."

337
00:53:36.748 --> 00:53:42.368
Like- Yeah... being social first- It ha- can't just be the output. It has to be the input as well. The in- exactly.

338
00:53:42.408 --> 00:54:07.148
It's output and input, and there are a couple of, especially beauty companies are very good at listening to feedback, launching new products, re-releasing old products, making adjustments based on, you know, feedback that they're getting from their, their community, um, but most companies are just, they're not able to do that, and the people internally, like outside of the social team or the marketing department, are just like, "Social's not gonna tell us what to do.

339
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Like, we're the grown-ups in the room, and we know what we're doing, and, like, this is what we're gonna release." And it's just like, it's, yeah, they're totally, they're totally missing it.

340
00:54:15.268 --> 00:54:25.308
So I would say that one I got massively wrong. Yeah. Mostly just because brands didn't get it. 'Cause brands got it wrong. [laughs] Yeah. They got it wrong, so, like, I got it wrong. So I'm like, yep, yeah. Yeah.

341
00:54:25.368 --> 00:54:33.888
That one, we're not gonna talk about that one anymore. Okay. So I mentioned a little bit ago how, um, your 2026 predictions survey went out this morning as we record.

342
00:54:34.388 --> 00:54:42.328
Um, I, by the time that this comes out, I think you may have closed that because this will probably come out mid, early mid-November. Um, survey might be closed.

343
00:54:42.488 --> 00:54:55.808
But I would like to hear what's already percolating on your mind. Like this, maybe this doesn't make it into the, you know, the January 3rd, 2026 post, but what you're thinking about for 2026. I'll be super curious.

344
00:54:55.848 --> 00:55:04.908
I've been looking at some of the early responses just- Mm... to see. Um, mostly 'cause I'm hoping it's different than last year. Like, I just wanna see something new. Yeah.

345
00:55:05.828 --> 00:55:13.748
Um, I think carousels, s- we spoke about- Yeah... carousels. I think carousels are gonna become more relevant.

346
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I think people are gonna realize that, like, there is tremendous engagement and sometimes even more reach than- Mm... posting reels.

347
00:55:20.688 --> 00:55:32.068
Um, I think we've just been hit over the head so many times with, like, video first that, uh, we're not thinking about carousels necessarily, but I think on LinkedIn and Instagram, I think we're gonna be looking a lot more at carousels.

348
00:55:32.178 --> 00:55:40.568
I don't think short-form video's going away. I think it's still gonna come out as the winner of, like, the number one content format, but I think carousels is gonna be a very close second.

349
00:55:40.688 --> 00:55:48.492
Um-Instagram, like, I think Instagram's gonna dominate again- Mm... just because that's where od- ad dollars are being spent.

350
00:55:48.812 --> 00:55:58.311
But I think the second platform, kinda like everybody's secondary platform, I'm gonna be very curious to see. I feel like it's gonna be a toss-up between YouTube or LinkedIn. Mm.

351
00:55:58.332 --> 00:56:10.432
And I think it just depends on what kind of company. I, I- B2B versus B2C. Yeah, B2B versus B2C. However, that's also part of my predictions about LinkedIn, is that we are gonna see a lot more B2C on LinkedIn.

352
00:56:10.492 --> 00:56:16.912
I think we're gonna see work-adjacent things. Um, I was just in a campaign for a haircare company.

353
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Um, they hired me as, like, a thought leader to participate in this campaign, and this company had hired a chief LinkedIn officer, and it's somebody who's essentially, like, their face and, like, running marketing and campaign efforts on LinkedIn, but they're also gonna be, like, a very public face of the company.

354
00:56:35.732 --> 00:56:43.052
And I thought that was fascinating, and I was like, "Yes." Mm. Like, that, I expect that a lot of... Especially while it's new.

355
00:56:43.092 --> 00:56:49.452
Like, think about it, if you're not a B2B company and all of a sudden you're on there, great example, Sweet Lauren's. Mm-hmm.

356
00:56:49.532 --> 00:56:59.992
They're, it's cookie dough, um, that you get at, like, Whole Foods and, like, m- more higher-end grocery stores. They're on LinkedIn. They're doing an amazing job. They're posting, it's all about the business- Yeah...

357
00:57:00.052 --> 00:57:08.652
and, um, you know, the product and their founder and kind of, like, how they're growing as a business, but it's also, it's very visual, it's very pretty, it's, like, cookies.

358
00:57:09.152 --> 00:57:19.552
It's, it's much more c- it's content you'd expect maybe on Instagram or TikTok, and I think we are gonna see a lot more of that content on LinkedIn, especially as Gen Z gr- like, joins- Yeah... the workforce.

359
00:57:19.612 --> 00:57:31.132
You've got Xennials, you've got young Millennials, and, like, people don't separate themself- like, they don't separate their personalities between, like, I scroll TikTok and Instagram and then I go to LinkedIn and I expect it to be completely different.

360
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I think people are logging on to LinkedIn, LinkedIn expecting, like, yeah, I wanna see things, maybe in a more professional lens- Yeah... but I still wanna see creators. I still wanna see video.

361
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I still wanna see, like, fun stuff. Maybe it's, like, about business travel. Maybe it's about meal prepping. Maybe it's about, like, wardrobe choices that are kind of work-relevant.

362
00:57:52.052 --> 00:58:03.572
I think that we are gonna see a lot more of that, um, on LinkedIn. I would posit, too, the, the type of trust that you have in a B2B creator, let's say, you know, if I'm on LinkedIn and, uh, you know, a,

363
00:58:04.702 --> 00:58:10.562
a [laughs] a, a B2B creator like Lia Haberman is there, like, I trust her because she helps me do my job better, right?

364
00:58:10.562 --> 00:58:23.382
And that's not to say that there's, like, less trust in a B2C, a lifestyle creator, but, like, you know, I am going to trust something coming from you in this, in this slightly different sort of way because I trust you to help me do my job better.

365
00:58:23.992 --> 00:58:30.141
There you go. I mean, like, uh, the, LinkedIn should take this as, like- [laughs]... the advertising slogan or whatever it is- Mm-hmm...

366
00:58:30.141 --> 00:58:36.842
like, um, for them to kind of promote that, like, this is happening on their platform. And trust me, I'm sure they're gonna talk about it. Like, this is gonna be- Yeah.

367
00:58:36.842 --> 00:58:43.392
You know, LinkedIn has gotten very good at content marketing this year, and sending out those blog posts, and sending out those, you know, that data.

368
00:58:43.492 --> 00:58:53.492
Like I said, when a company's, like, trumpeting their success and talking about, you know, who they're growing with and what's happening on their platform, like, there's obviously something behind that.

369
00:58:53.552 --> 00:59:04.702
Like, maybe it's a little bit of wishful thinking, but it's also actually happening, and they can back it up with numbers. Um, let's see. EGC, we talked about that, employee-generated content or employee influencers. Mm.

370
00:59:04.722 --> 00:59:19.592
I think that that, we are definitely gonna see that. Um, oh, creator-brand partnerships beyond the feed. The number one thing that I'm getting asked about for creator partnerships next year is experiential. Mm-hmm.

371
00:59:19.652 --> 00:59:35.652
Like, how are we doing events, and not necessarily events where the influencer or the creator is just showing up as, like, a paid face, like, r- they're getting paid for attendance at the event, but how are we maybe co-hosting an event with the creator and tapping into their community- Yeah...

372
00:59:35.752 --> 00:59:41.632
um, and then showing up as, like, a trusted partner of that creator at the event.

373
00:59:41.762 --> 00:59:56.172
And so I think, you know, already we're seeing, like, creators on billboards, creators on digital ads, creators on, um, you know, like in other areas of marketing. I think that we are gonna see a lot of experiential.

374
00:59:56.272 --> 00:59:59.752
Uh, there was a study that just came out that was like, the number was huge.

375
00:59:59.792 --> 01:00:14.312
It was something like 41% of people on social have gone to an in-person creator event in the past year, which is, like, that's a lot of people that are going to creator-hosted or creator-led events.

376
01:00:14.812 --> 01:00:20.762
Um, and maybe it's a wide definition of creators. Maybe it's, like, concerts or performances. Yeah, it is.

377
01:00:20.772 --> 01:00:34.272
You know, like, it could also be, like, kind of traditional entertainment people, but, like, people are looking to connect in person, and brands are very much trying to figure out, like, yeah, how do we get in on that but, like, make it cool and bring the right type of people?

378
01:00:35.182 --> 01:00:42.132
And we're gonna use a creator c- to reach those people and to k- like, add that cool factor. I would, I would agree a, very much so.

379
01:00:42.172 --> 01:00:50.032
I mean, I've been to a good deal of conferences and, like, smaller events in, here in New York the past couple months, and it's like, that has been very gratifying for me.

380
01:00:50.092 --> 01:01:12.571
Um, and also, like, just on, on the personal consumer level, but also, um, I'd say the past six months or so, we've spoken on the podcast to a lot of people who, like, have some sort of community product, uh, you know, online, but I've definitely learned from them that, like, it's not really, like, the, the, maybe the highest level of activation is, like, bringing people together in person, and it's not really...

381
01:01:12.632 --> 01:01:22.532
You know, community is a buzzword in marketing, et cetera, but, like, when people are down to come link up in person, like, that's when it's a, a community because then also those connections are stronger when they go back online, right?

382
01:01:22.672 --> 01:01:30.042
So I think that that's still a pretty, like, you know, blue ocean that eventually- Yeah... maybe in two years there'll be too many- Yes...

383
01:01:30.072 --> 01:01:39.582
and then people are like, "Good God," like, "I'm not gonna go to another creator event." But I think there's def- I fully agree with you, that's probably a big 2026 thing. You always wanna be an early adopter- Yeah...

384
01:01:39.582 --> 01:01:43.512
'cause it's like, yeah, there is, like, a short shelf life. There's, like, always a saturation point.

385
01:01:43.572 --> 01:01:52.772
So it's like, jump on these things, do them, because to your point, in a year or two we're gonna be sick of maybe LinkedIn, maybe experiential, you know, whatever it is.

386
01:01:52.792 --> 01:02:02.172
And so at that point we're gonna have to pivot to something new, and we'll have another conversation, talk about our predictions for 2027, and, like, who knows what's gonna be, what's gonna happen then? Yeah.

387
01:02:02.332 --> 01:02:11.892
Well, speaking of shelf life, I think we can put this one [laughs] on the shelf. Um, that was a horrible pun, but, uh, this was super fun. Thank you for coming on. Awesome. Thank you for having me.

388
01:02:11.932 --> 01:02:23.792
Where should people go to find your stuff? Is it I s- is it liahaberman.substack.com? What is it? Yes. Um, L-I-A H-A-B-E-R-M-A-N. It's, like, @ on Instagram. It's on Threads. It's on LinkedIn. It's on Substack.

389
01:02:24.032 --> 01:02:35.542
Um, I, pretty much anywhere that you find me, it's just my name. Go follow her, folks, and we will see you next week. [outro music] If you enjoyed the episode, you would also enjoy this episode with Jade Powell.

390
01:02:35.892 --> 01:02:41.512
She's an expert in social strategy, previously working with big brands like Apple TV and Delta Airlines.

391
01:02:41.912 --> 01:02:53.472
And in this episode, she talks about growing a following on LinkedIn, how to land brand partnerships, and her journey to making $250,000 in a year. It's our most popular episode. That's the one you gotta watch next.