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The kind of company we're building, like, it has never been done before. You're kind of unique in that you really like to go around and talk about this. We are just an exceptionally unique, cool company.

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A lot of people don't like to show the behind-the-scenes. They, they maybe are afraid of giving away some sauce.

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Buying and selling newsletters is, oh my God, man, if we have time to talk about this, it's just the most underrated- This is the time. Yeah, let's do it, man.

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I understand this has kinda been your main growth lever over the years, right? And when we think about, like, newsletter growth and community growth, I'm thinking community first. What is the value in it for the reader?

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We do not mess around when it comes to paid content. We make sure people know it's paid. We make sure they know this is a quality piece we're putting out. It's not marketing fluff. It's not bullshit, right?

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Like, that matters a lot. Welcome back to the Creator Spotlight podcast.

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My name is Francis Zier, and today we're sitting with Stefan von Imhoff, who is a co-founder of alts.co, which is an alternative investment newsletter, community, fund, and platform.

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It's a really unique business, and Stefan is really able to talk about it in a very transparent, articulate way. Uh, I think you're really gonna enjoy this one.

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We've got newsletter acquisitions, newsletter sales, uh, high-ticket communities, a lot of Creator Spotlight classics. Enjoy.

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To contextualize before we get too deep in it, uh, what, what alts are, what this is all about, uh, I... When I signed up for the newsletter, there's a good explainer.

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So for the listener who does not know what we mean when we say alts, what the alts in alts.co is, it's alternative investments, some of which could include real estate, startups and VC, wine, whiskey, and spirits.

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I'm listing the, the asset classes you're interested in list from your newsletter signup.

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Uh, farmland, sports, crypto, artwork, precious metals and gems, private equity, collectibles, culture and luxury, and music and film. So that's what alts are.

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And then a whole lot of things you didn't name, and that's [laughs]... Yeah, if it's not mainstream, it's on our list to put it that way.

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If you can put money in it and it's not listed on the mainstream stock exchanges, it's an alt. That's it. Cool. Um, so again, contextualizing it, alts as a business, the various revenue streams.

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I understand there's sponsorships in the newsletter. There's the community membership. There's investment management fees. What am I missing here?

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You're missing, uh, carried interest on the investments that we, that we make. So, um, typically, when we, you know, b-buy, uh, an asset, um, we hold it for a few years, let's say.

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When we sell it, um, 20% of the, the profits is, is kind of a standard carried interest, and so that's- Yeah... that's a big revenue stream as well. Okay.

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Um, I, I, I understand if you're not comfortable doing the whole percentage breakdown, but i-if you can say maybe, like, what the percentage makeup of the overall revenue mix might be for each.

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I'd say right now we're, we're kind of at a interesting inflection point where basically sponsorships and, like, the legacy side of our business is half of our business. Mm-hmm.

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So we're kind of right at that point where we're switching from, you know, coming out of being a media company into something much different, much bigger. Um, so we're kinda like half and half right now.

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Okay, this is interesting. I, I didn't wanna get into this until later, but it, it's worth, it's worth bringing up now.

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Um, my, my co-host on my other podcast that I do, Tasteland, um, Daisy Alioto, she is the editor of Dirt Media, she wrote this piece, published it yesterday as we record, um, titled "The Future of Media Is a Bank."

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Um, and it's about- Oh, wow... kind of alternative ways of, of paying for media. It's about much more than the line I'm about to say, but what I'm about to say really describes you quite accurately. Um, so in...

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As she says, "In 2025, every company is a media company unless you're a media company. Then your core product- [laughs]... is elsewhere: community, events, data.

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As much as media alone is not a viable product, it's an essential wrapper around everything from protein bars to venture firms to fitness equipment."

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Um, so for you, also, I listened to an episode of the Wealth Watchers podcast that you were on just over three years ago, and he asked you, "What's your three to five year vision for, for alts.co?"

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That was three years ago. Um, and what you said was, "We started as a newsletter." So newsletters- Yeah... stage one. Community, we parlayed that into a community. Yeah. And then a fund.

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We parlayed that community- Yeah... into an investment fund, and then an investment platform, which you say is the- Yeah... final resting spot for what the company looks like in the next three to five years.

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Well, that- So are you-... that- Where are you?... last part's a little tricky. So yeah, I, I'm actually proud of myself for being so close to where I, uh, we wanted to land. Um, we definitely started as a newsletter.

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We definitely parlayed that into a community, and we opened up a bunch of funds, um, SPVs, special purpose vehicles, that, um, our, uh, accredited investors in our community can invest in.

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Um, in terms of a platform, you know, I think three years ago the big change was, my vision back then was that, uh, we would be more of a, kind of, yeah, like a, a, a platform for everyday retail investors, not necessarily accredited ones, to, uh, be able to log in and invest, and I think that, that vision has definitely changed.

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I can get into the reasons why, but they're, they're pretty interesting. Um- Mm-hmm... uh, the, the big reason is

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about two years ago, so about a year after that was recorded, you know, we kinda saw what was happening with the, the non-accredited landscape, the retail invested landscape, and it was just starting to s- to splinter and fall apart.

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And so a lot of the, kind of like visions and dreams that, you know, Wyatt, my co-founder, and I had about, you know, being a, a platform for anyone to invest in all sorts of, of alts, that kind of, uh, fell away in favor of let's actually focus on high net worth investors, accredited investors- Mm...

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private placements. And if you're doing that, you actually don't really need as much of a, you know, a one-size-fits-all kind of platform.

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It's a sort of a classic- So I'd say that part of the vision has- Like when you're, when you're a startup, y- you're, you're kind of targeting both mass market and enterprise, say, and then you kind of end up sometimes going towards just one to focus your efforts.Well, it's interesting because enterprise, it- we, we don't...

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We're kind of in between enterprise and mass market. Oh, when I s- So- When I say enterprise too, I mean, I more just mean like y- a whale, whatever it, whatever it is. L- but- Oh, yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

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It doesn't have to be like literally enterprise in the sense of like massive private equity or something like that. Got it. Right. Yeah, because it, it's, it's basically not right now.

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Um, but, uh, yeah, that's a good point. I mean, there is a, a tendency for a lot of companies to, to, to move upmarket. Mm-hmm. Not all of them do. We certainly have. And, and that, that...

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So I'd say that's the biggest change from three years ago, but that's gr- I, I was scared when you said, you know, "I listened to a podcast you did three years ago." I was like, "Oh my God. Where is this going, man?

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I'm gonna be way off from what I predicted." But yeah, no, o-overall, I think, um, uh, we're, we're, we're kind of, uh, developing into the company we thought we, we could be and should be. Yeah.

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What have been some of like the biggest challenges along that? 'Cause I think at that time, you, you had launched the community, or maybe you were a little before. I don't know. Well, we...

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The word community gets thrown around like crazy, man, you know, and it's like I'm not one for buzzwords and like vanity metrics. Mm. So, uh, what, what the hell is a community, right?

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Like, to me, it's like, you know, a community is... You know, email by, by default is very just one-sided, right? Not a community. Yeah. Like it's, it's not a community at all.

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And, and, uh, so we originally s- built, uh, a community on, on Discord. Um- Mm... this was kind of back when like NFTs were really hot, and, uh, we thought that was the future.

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And, um, I'll just be honest, I, I just freaking hated Discord. [laughs] I hated it. I thought it was the most o- user, you know, unfriendly, just I didn't like the energy. The- Mm-hmm...

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there was a lot of people that were like impersonating like Wyatt and I, like, and we just, th- I didn't, th- it wouldn't, it wasn't the kind of community we were trying to foster and build.

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So aft- after like nine months, we just said, "Screw it." Yeah. We just killed it off completely. We ended up moving to... We considered a couple of other options. Um- Mm...

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I remember I was listening to one of your podcasts the other day, I think it was Milly, who's, um, Milly Tamati on, on- Mm. Milly Tamati. Yeah, yeah. Yeah. Mm. Really cool. That was a great episode.

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Um, and she was starting on Slack, and, you know, I... We considered Slack, but to me, like Slack wasn't, it's not purpose-built for like what we're trying to build. Mm. It's more kind of like enterprise communication.

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And that's fine. It works as a community, but we, we landed on Circle, um, and that's been awesome. I, I think Circle is just an incredible purpose-built community, uh, software comp- Yeah...

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and, um, so we've been, we've been really, really happy with that. Um- The name of the community- It's gotten to the point now- Real quick Go ahead. It's called, it's called Alteia, right? Yeah, so our, our, the...

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Alteia is a, um, private community for, uh, high net worth investors, serious alternative investors. You have to be, uh, accredited in order to invest in our SPVs and o- and vehicles.

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For, real quick too, for listeners who might not know, what is, what does it mean to be accredited as opposed to a retail investor?

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Uh, uh, accredited is basically, it depends on the country, but basically it's a, uh, a set of rules that, uh, say in order to invest in private placements you need at least, um, a certain level of, uh, income and/or net worth.

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Side tangent, this is all going to be changing possibly in the next year or so. There is a lot going on behind the scenes, but for now, accreditation is a pretty hard and fast rule. Mm.

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And the vehicles that we create, the investment vehicles that we create, you must be accredited in order to invest in them. There's no, there's nothing we can do about that, right? Mm-hmm.

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So, um, we've decided to lean into the accredited side of our community and carve out a special place for the highest net worth investors in our community to not just communicate, to not just diligence deals, to not just get to know each other, but to actually invest.

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Mm. And that is what Alteia is all about. Um, it's gotten to the point now where like our, w- when I think of like our... I, I, I'll give you a quick anecdote.

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I had someone the other day say something about, um, "Hey, uh, on your website blah, blah, blah, blah, blah." And I was like, "What are you talking about, man? Like, that's not on the website."

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And he goes, "Right here," and he points, and he's talking about on Circle. Yeah. And I'm like, oh my God, like he just thinks that's the website.

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And I'm like, of course he does, 'cause we're leaning so much into the community side of things where I, I don't even, like the website itself isn't even that important anymore. Yeah. It's really like...

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And when we think about like newsletter growth and community growth, I'm thinking Circle first. Mm. I'm thinking community first, right? So it's definitely, um, been a very big shift. Yeah.

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So I mean, it's c- it's that, that three-year vision you were talking about where you build the presence, you build a newsletter, and then only a small percentage of people in that large newsletter audience, which we'll get into that in a little bit, are going to be eligible, are going to be able to afford and justify being in the community.

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Um, it's, it's, I mean, it's a classic marketing funnel, and I think this is, this is kind of one of my definitions of or one of a way my definition of creator has been challenged recently is I'm seeing more people like this.

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Um, I'm talking to, uh, Billy Parks, who's part of Slow Ventures in- Oh, yeah... next week, and they, they have the Creator Fund. And they're now investing- Yeah...

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in like these creators who have created the distri- distribution, but now they're really just like a maybe a physical product or course company that has the distribution built in.

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But anyways, I, I'm getting on a bit of a tangent here. I wanna, I wanna stay on Alteia for a second. Sure.

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So, uh, the, the pricing for, for the audience, um, from the, from the website, I mean, it kinda lists the three tiers. So there's Alteia Gateway, $500 per year. Yeah.

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This, um, to quote, "unlocks access to our deals, community, and resources." There's Alteia Base for $2,500 per year for serious investors ready to go deeper, lower fees, priority access, full event participation.

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And then Alteia Black for $10,000 per year for high net worth investors seeking more, has no SPV fees, lowered carry, guaranteed allocations, free trips, exclusive perks.

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So this is the kind of thing we're talking about, very high value community that you really have to pay to get in.

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Going back to, um, you referenced that Milly one, I think with her and some other people I've spoken with c- they I, they always find that community is better when you have even a small fee.

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This guy Michael Kaufman I interviewed a while ago, who has this thing, the, the Newsletter Club-Kind of a group for, um, local media companies that are newsletter first.

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He had just like a one-time $100 fee, I don't know if he's changed it, because he found that that just created more of a quality participation. Um, so that's, that's a lot of context.

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One question, though, uh, in your interview with Simon Owens from around the end of last year, he was showing on the screen, I was watching on YouTube, uh, the, the Altaya website, and I think the button, the CTA then was to apply, whereas- Mm...

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now when I went it's just, you can just pay and get in it looked like. What happened there? What changed? That's it. Yeah. Just testing, changing. Things change. Um, great point.

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Yeah, we, we kind of went through an application phase for a while where we really wanted to throttle the, um, people that we let in the club, and after a while we just said, "Nah, it just...

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The, the, the weight of the, the- No, it's just getting in the way... yeah, it's just getting in the way. It's like what are we trying to do here? We're trying to make sure quality people join the club. Okay, cool.

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If that's the goal, there's t- a couple ways to do it. One is have them go through this lengthy application process. The other is, well, you pay 500 bucks, that's, I mean, that... What does that say?

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That says like, okay, like, you're at least willing to spend $500, to put your money where your mouth is and see what it's all about. Like, that's a, that's a qualifier in and of itself. So- Mm-hmm...

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yeah, we just kind of cut out the, um, whole application side of things. And we, you know, there's a lot of, there's different ways to go about like, you know, ultimately like what we're trying to achieve.

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But what, the, the important thing to remember is this, like, like I said before, we don't, we're not interested in vanity metrics. Mm-hmm.

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So like subscriber count, like community member count, like really, like that's all kind of like secondary. Like the main things for us, like are we delivering value? And my God, like we are, right?

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I'm not gonna get into numbers 'cause I legally can't. [laughs] But like we are getting great returns through- Yeah... the investments we're making for our community members. So that's like north star number one.

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Number two is what are we really trying to, to, uh, to do here in terms of, uh, revenue? Well, the $500 a year, $2,500 a year, like that helps. That's good. Mm.

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That's a solid, I think, uh, you're getting a lot of value for that money, and especially when you consider the, the real life meetups we're doing, which I th- we should definitely get into later- Mm...

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'cause that's a really cool part- Yeah... of what we're doing. But where we really make our money is through, in the long term is through AUM, assets under management. Mm. Through investments, right?

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So fundamentally we just, we don't want people who are in the club but never invest, right? You don't have to invest in every single deal. We bring seven to 10 per year.

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You don't have to invest in, in any of them or all of them, but you should be an active investor because that's really- The game's only fun if people got skin in it. It- it's more fun.

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It's also that's where we can make the most money- Yeah... for us is, is like, you know, it'll take two, three years for these assets to be, you know, sold.

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But when they are, like yeah, we make a lot of money from that, and so does everyone else as well. Yeah. Um, okay.

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We'll get back into the community aspect, but we should spend a little time on the newsletter and how we kind of get to the community. So I... Do you start this in 2020 or is it 2021?

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Look man, COVID was a blur- [laughs]... so I can't even remember [laughs] I, I, I've found- So I mean, I-... conflicting reports. [laughs] Yeah.

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Like, uh, that's interest- so I think like, I mean, it wasn't like a black and white kind of like start. Like wh- the, what was the first issue was, I think you know, you know the story. It goes out to like 50 people.

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It's like you've heard this a million times, right? Yeah. Like I just sent it to my friends, and then from there it grew. And like that's exactly kinda how it started with us.

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Um, you know, I, I think in 2020 is when the first writing began on Substack. Yeah.

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Um, by 2021 my co-founder and I be- became co-founders, and that's when we were able to really grow together and actually raise money from the community to really grow this thing.

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Um, so it's, you know, it's that COVID blur, but it's late 2020, early 2021. Yeah. Uh, a question about just briefly on, on actually starting it.

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So I think you were, at the time you started writing it, the head of product at a company called Flippa, which is a marketplace to buy and sell online businesses. Were you...

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I'm, I, I, I kinda get the impression that you were already interested in investing and alternative investments before that, but that timeline lineup seems to imply that you were kind of like, "Oh, this is a way on my own time to, to mess around and dig deeper," um, and like this is just like kind of on the side, but like, you know, it's what I'm thinking about all day at work, but I can figure it out a bit on my own.

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Nailed it. You totally nailed it.

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I mean, I just, I've always loved writing and so, you know, when you're stuck indoors for three months straight here in Melbourne, Australia, it's like, you know, like what else are you gonna do except write what you know?

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And that's a wor- world that I knew really well. So I kind of started writing about alternative investing through the lens of micro private equity, which is again, what, what Flippa basically is doing. Yeah.

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And then so it's funny 'cause like Wyatt, you know, was kinda coming at this world through the lens of, um, you know, like, like collectibles and, you know, uh, what was happening with, uh, with like, you know, NFTs at the time.

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And like, you know, he's got this crazy, uh, rare book collection. And so we were kind of doing the same thing, coming at it from different angles, and then, you know, I just called him up one day.

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We'd never met in real life. [laughs] We're both two Americans that just like lived overseas, happened to live overseas. I just called him up one day and was like, "Look man, like I don't wanna compete with you.

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Like we're kinda doing the same thing. Like I know we've never met, but like let's just join forces and build this thing together." And he's like, "Sounds good, but like what's your vision?"

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[laughs] You know, like, "What are your..." You know, and I'm like, "You know, I wanna start a fund. I wanna do something much bigger than a newsletter." Yeah. And, um, you know, he was absolutely on board with that.

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He's got a, a great, um, finance background and, uh, you know, we thought it would be a perfect kind of mesh of skills, and, uh, that's exactly how it's, how it's worked out.

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We are very different in many ways, um, but like the things I'm good at he's not good at, and the things he's good at I'm not great at, and so it kind of, it works really well. It's a great partnership.

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I, I've kind of noticed that. Like for example, I only found one non-Alts owned podcast that he had done on Apple Podcasts where, where you've done quite a few. Um, and you know, I've talked to you before. Yeah.

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You have a very outgoing personality. You're a good speaker. Um, and, and, and I also noticed in the community he has maybe twice the am- number of posts as you. So I don't know if that's like an hours thing- Yeah...

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and that like he is, I think he's in Spain, so maybe he's closer to the majority of your audience, which I, I'm pretty sure is in the US.

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Um, but yeah, tell me a, a little bit more about that dynamic as co-founders.Yeah, like, I mean, you nailed it. Like, I'm definitely, like, more extroverted [laughs] than he is. It's like... But what he, what he's...

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Wyatt is a great writer. Mm-hmm. And that is hard to find these days, you know?

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And especially in this age of, like, just, you know, AI, like, slop, and, like, it is really tough to find an authentic writer who likes to really explore and, and, and, and not just surface level, but really dig deep and find the truth behind things.

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Yeah. And that is absolutely critical to who we are and what we do. This is why people trust us. This is why, um, you know, we've, we've established the kind of company we've established, is we really care.

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The, the editorial acumen and the bar is really high. And, um, yeah, that's w- the first thing that drew me to Wyatt, is just- Yeah... I think if you can organize your thoughts and you can write well, like, that's a...

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it's a just a terrific skill, especially these days. Mm-hmm. So okay, that's... The next thing I wanna talk about is the writing and the content itself, but one more thing on, on all your podcast appearances.

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So like I said, you've done a lot. Um, you, you pitched me to come on, and I'd spoken to you before. Yeah. And I, I knew you could do a, a good pod, so I wanted to have you on.

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But I, it's, it's odd to me because oftentimes the people who are pitching me are maybe not the, the best people that I wanna have on.

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Um, and then some of the best people I wanna have on, I might have to, even when I get them on, I kind of have to drag it out of them. So you're kind of unique in that you really like to go around and talk about this.

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A lot of people don't like to share the behind the scenes. They, they maybe are afraid of giving away some sauce, which I think is generally misguided. Usually the sauce is in the person, not the execution you give away.

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Um, why do you like to, to talk about it so much? You just, you just love the business of [laughs] of media and building businesses and like to talk about it?

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I think that we, we are just an exceptionally unique, cool company. Yeah. We are alternative through and through. And I don't... I mean, I, I know every founder kinda thinks that- [laughs]...

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and, like, a lot of people say it, but like w- the, like the, the kinda company we're building, like, it, that, it has never been done before. Yeah. Like, it, it really is like, you know, um, uh, treading on new ground.

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And- Yeah... part of it is just I, I, I want people to know about it obviously, and there's a vested interest in, like, you know, an ulterior motive of course. Yeah.

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But, like, I also just, like, it helps me, like, self-actualize and realize just the cool, like, stuff that we're doing just by- Yeah... talking out loud.

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And, and, and, and so yeah, I mean, it's, uh, I appreciate you, you, uh, [laughs] saying what you're saying. [laughs] And I think you're spot on.

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I, I think it's interesting because we used to have a podcast that we did- I know, 84 episodes... kind of regularly. Mm-hmm. Yeah. And it's funny. It, it kind of, uh, it kind of, like, fell to the wayside a little bit.

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Um, and th- th- that was for no other reason other than just, like, opportunity cost, right? Yeah. Like podcasts- Takes a lot to make a podcast good... are a tough business. Oh my God, they're a tough business.

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They're... I consider it just, like, a long-term investment, like period. Like- Mm-hmm...

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and there's times when you wanna be making long-term investments, and there's times when you wanna be making short-term investments.

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And so I think with us, we just saw, like, look, if we keep putting the effort in the podcast game, it will eventually pay off. Mm-hmm. But what are we missing in the meantime?

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And for us, the equation around, you know, do we grow the writing side, the newsletter- Yeah...

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side, the, the con- the, the, um, written content side of our business versus, you know, the podcast side, it just, you know, it's like it was kind of like an easy decision. Um, I- Yeah...

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I think that newsletters are fundamentally better business than podcasts for a million reasons. Yeah. You probably understand exactly why. I know, it's- But they're just fundamentally much better.

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But now it's gotten to the point where it's like, okay, like, now we gotta get serious again.

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And I'm looking at YouTube right now, and I, I'm seeing, I don't know if you saw the graph that came out, um, think it was Charter put out a chart the other day, and it was like basically most podcasts is just on YouTube now.

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Yeah. Like, more than Apple, more than Spotify, like that's kind of like the channel you wanna be. And creators have been saying this for years, like YouTube's the only one that matters. Like, and TikTok is- Yeah...

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doesn't pay shit. Um, you know, like all the others that, like, just focus on YouTube. And so now we are definitely starting to, um, take that more seriously. We have a long way to go. Yeah.

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And, you know, hopefully we meet again in a couple years and, um, you know, my prediction about us being on YouTube in a significant way has manifested. Yeah. But, uh, until then, we got our work cut out for us.

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Absolutely, yeah. Siri, remind me in two years- [laughs]... we'll, let's do another interview. Um, [laughs] hey, if you're enjoying this conversation, consider subscribing to the podcast.

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We release a new episode every Tuesday. All right, back to the show.

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So, um, the newsletter itself, there's a lot to talk to- talk about here, maybe the beginning, uh, when you join up with Wyatt, but I guess first way in is what is it today? I think there's two, maybe three newsletters.

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What are they? What are they? We, uh, have a couple of different, um, newsletters that we do each week. Yeah. Um, every Sunday is, this is kind of our flagship, um, uh, issue, which is called the Sunday Edition.

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This is, um, you know, a different alternative investment topic each week. Kind of this is where the, the whole newsletter, the whole company kinda started, so it, it kind of sets the, the tone and the pace.

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Um, in terms of, like, what we talk about in that newsletter and the, the topics that we bring up, it's very much not random. It's very deliberate.

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Like, you know, for example, this week, um, I, uh, and I often decide last minute what it's going to be, uh, but this week, um, we're gonna be doing an issue on K-pop. Hmm. Um, the reason is, a couple of reasons.

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Number one, there's a huge K-pop show on Netflix right now called, uh, K-Pop: Demon Hunters, which is like- Yeah... taking over. Like, do you have kids? I don't know. Do you- I, I don't. [laughs] Okay. Far from it, yeah.

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Th- uh, yeah. [laughs] There's, uh, I was gonna say, um, it's actually, like, more popular than Bluey right now, which is like- Oh... saying something... I know, I know, Bluey has, yeah. Yeah, yeah.

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[laughs] So, um, there's kind of a zeitgeist, like, momentum happening around K-pop. But then more importantly, we for the last, God, three months have been working on getting a K-pop investment deal- Hmm...

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into the community, and we've just finished our due diligence on it, and it's looking really, really good.

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So this is a way for us to introduce not just this theme you should pay attention to, but also there's an alternative investing angle there, right? Mm-hmm.

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And we've got a deal you can invest in as an accredited investor. You can invest in K-pop music royalties.

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Um, so this is, this is kind of, we really try to blend the two kinda worlds together with the, um-With the, uh, the content we put out. But that's our flagship issue.

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Um, on Monday we have one called Alts Cafe, which is kind of a very, uh, like an overarching, like, overview of just the most important stories, um, what's happening, um, in the, uh, in the world of alternative investing each week.

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On Wednesday, um, my co-founder Wyatt has The WC. That's his, you know, his own, uh, flavor, his own newsletter that he puts out every Wednesday.

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Um, we also do a lot of sponsored deep dives, which is, you know, advertorials. Hmm. Um, we've- the bar for these is really high. We do not mess around when it comes to, um, paid content.

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We make sure people know it's paid. We make sure they know we d- this is a quality piece we're putting out. It's not marketing fluff. It's not bullshit, right? Like, that matters a lot.

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What- what kind of brand that would do an advertorial with you, and then what, like, what- what is the resulting piece look like? Like, what is the value in it for the reader? Oh, man.

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I mean, d- so we- we tend to only work with interesting companies that are looking to exactly reach an audience like ours, of forward thinkers- Hmm...

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outside-the-box thinkers, people that, you know, just are open to new alternative financial companies and themes. I'll give you an example. Yeah.

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So yesterday we published an, uh, issue on a company called Forward In- uh, Inheritance.

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And they're, like, the first company to use, um, what are called HEIs, home equity investments, to kind of fast-forward people's inheritances- Hmm...

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and get families money, like, earlier than they- they- they would have. Um, nothing else like this exists. So, like, our audience is, like, the perfect kind of like...

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This is exactly, if you're Forward Inheritance, this is exactly who you wanna reach, right? Like, it's like higher net worth folks who are looking for outside-the-box financial, like, mechanisms.

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Like, this is exactly that. So- so when we do a, you know, a piece on Forward Inheritance, it's not like, "Hey, have your marketing guy go to ChatGPT and send us 1,000 words." Hmm. It's like, no.

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Like, we're gonna interview you. We're gonna really get to understand what's happening here. We're gonna make connections galore with other pieces we've done. Like, we make it, we don't waste people's time.

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We do not waste people's time. Hmm. How many advertorials have you read where it's like you see it, and within three seconds you're like, "Oh, this is so..." You groan and click out. Yeah.

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It's just, it's just there's no point. You're just wasting people's time. You're collecting money. You're not delivering any value for the end reader at all. [lips smack] Um, and, uh, it's just not gonna work.

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It doesn't work. If you're interested in vanity metrics, it'll work great. If you're interested in real value, it's gonna fall apart. Yeah. And so we don't- we're just not interested in that. So, um, yeah.

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And then, you know, other than that, we've got, like, kinda like a weekly, like, community, uh, update email. Mm-hmm. So it's funny 'cause, like, Circle sends one on their own, right? Mm-hmm.

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Uh, but I didn't like the one they sent. It was very templated, very kind of basic. So we just send a, a, a community update, all the thing that's happening within the Altea community. Yeah.

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So everyone knows what we're doing and what it's all about. And so, yeah, it's about, it's between three to five issues per week. Yeah. It's not standard. It depends on the week. Um, but that's kind of our cadence.

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So ba- basically every week, though, there's the, the Alts Cafe, which that one, it's like a list of, like, just the 10 or so different ar- areas, and then there's like three or five bullet points beneath each of, like, here's an article relevant to this investment area.

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So you've got, um, the, the Sunday edition, which is the deep dive, Alts Cafe, uh, occasionally Wyatt's, and then occasionally an advertorial, and then occasionally, uh, the community update.

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And then on top of that, what we do really well, and this is kind of why we moved off Substack- Mm-hmm... is we, um, we- we know a lot about our community members and our subscribers, right?

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In terms of what they're interested in, what they've clicked on. So we create, um, both, uh, how do I say this? We create kind of profiles for each user, and then we target specific content to those profiles. Hmm.

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It- it's pretty standard stuff, but we do it at a, at a, at a fairly, um, you know, fairly large scale. Yeah.

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So, like, for example, if I've got an interesting, uh, farmland, you know, uh, story or deal or something in that world, but I don't wanna send it to everybody, I can just target people who are interested just in farmland, right?

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And I know who they are because of all sorts of signals, both- Yeah... direct and indirect. So we do a lot of that kind of stuff, um, that that'll go out to 15% of the audience, 30%, that kind of thing.

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We also do a lot of regional kind of based stuff. Like, I don't like sending deals to or, or content to people in the UK when it's- Hmm... specifically only for Americans or vice versa.

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So we, we kinda control the, the flow, um- You've got a lot of segments... pretty well. We do have a lot of segments, and we use them well.

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And this is something that, you know, again, like Sub- this is actually why we originally moved off of Substack. Yeah. The irony being, I think Substack lets you do that now.

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Um, I- I- I don't know for sure, but I think they kind of, uh, moved in that direction. Um, but, uh, I- I don't, I don't know for sure.

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I'm, I'm- Hey, by the way, with, with Substack, I- I was looking at your profile today. You, you still are active on there a little bit. [laughs] And you have, like, 350,000 or so followers. I know it's over 300,000.

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Um, and it looks like some of the Alts newsletters still pipe to there.

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But it's, uh, I didn't dig too deep, but it seems like it's kind of an afterthought thing where you're like, "Well, maybe some people will come to the main newsletter through this." Maybe you're exporting people.

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I don't know. I'll give you some inside baseball on this because, A, it's not working particularly well- [laughs]... and I think people should learn.

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But, but, B, just to kind of just be completely con- transparent and honest about what we're doing. So we started on Substack. We got away from it. Hmm. Substack started getting better and better and better.

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I started to realize Substack could be a channel for growth as well. Yeah. But the problem is you can only have one ESP. Like, you cannot be sending from multiple.

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Like, can you imagine sending from Beehiiv and ConvertKit and, you know, like- Substack itself... it would just be a nightmare, right? Correct. It'd be a total nightmare. Yeah. So, [lips smack]

196
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um, so what we do is we, we do import, um, each day. Ev- everyone who signs up for our newsletter actually gets, gets added to Substack as well, but we don't use Substack as a sending mechanism.

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We only use it as a content, uh, um, discovery and kind of like commun- um, Substack kind of chat, like communication mechanism. Hmm. Mm-hmm.

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So yeah, there's technically 350,000 people, like, that follow me on Substack.But they never d- like, they don't get emailed through Substack. Yeah. Right?

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And so we, we get, like, a fair amount of people that s- find us and sign up to us on through Substack, and then we just have a reverse job that immediately pipes them over to our ESP, right? Yeah.

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So it's kind of just an extra channel. It's an extra way to, um, kind of piggyback off of the developments that Substack is making. I do believe they're getting much better as a- Yeah... as a company.

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They actually have some pretty cool acquisition-based features. So, um, but it's, it's secondary. It's extra. It's not our main kind of, uh, thing at all. Yeah. Last question about the content.

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So, um, is it just you and Wyatt, or do you have other writers you work with?

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So we absolutely have writers, researchers that we work with, and this is where the community really, um, uh, shines, for lack of a better word.

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So what we- we've done is we've introduced this concept called decentralized due diligence. Hmm. So when we have a deal, right? Let's say it's a music rights deal.

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Let's say it's the K-pop deal we're, we're gonna be writing about this Sunday, right? Yeah. Um, how do we figure out if it's good or not? Like, there's a lot of crappy deals out there, right?

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And, like, especially in the world of alternative investing, there's just a lot of shit. Okay, so how do you wade through it? How do you get through the muck? Well, we know a little bit about music royalties, for sure.

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Like, we took a group trip to Nashville last year. Mm. My personal, like, WhatsApp, I've got a lot of people I can speed dial and get help from. That's exactly what we do.

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So now I've got this deal someone brings to me for a K-pop, uh, a, a, a music rights, um, investment. I look at it. Okay, it passes the sniff test.

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What I'll do then is just I start reaching out five, six, seven people in the industry. Mm-hmm.

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People who know music rights, who know how to value catalogs, who really understand this better than I could in 100 lifetimes, and I say, "Look, if you can help us diligence this deal, you know, first of all, we'd be super thankful.

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Second, if you wanna invest in the deal, we can kinda help you out a little bit here and there- Yeah... in terms of, like, you know, the, the, how the money flows."

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And so that's exactly what we, what we do, and we call this decentralized due diligence, so it's actually people from the community, experts in the community, that are helping, uh, diligence these deals.

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In terms of what they get out of it, it can be financial. A lot of it is just that confidence of knowing that, yeah, as a music rights expert, I'll help Alex out- Yeah...

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knowing that when I want to invest in farmland, or I wanna invest in this Austin real estate deal, there's gonna be an expert in there who will help me, and round and round we go.

215
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And it sounds like this, like, kind of like, you know, like, hippie, kinda, like, utopia, like- Yeah... but I think it really, really works really well. And that's, I mean, that's just called a community.

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I, I, like, I grew up, um, my parents are farmers. I grew up in a small farming community, right?

217
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It's, it's the same, it's just people who have similar vested interests and, you know, I'll, I'll give you some produce today. You're gonna give me some elk you hunted tomorrow, right? [laughs] Whatever it is.

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It's, it's the- Well, I, I- It's just basic community... I know who to go to when we've got a deal in, in elk now. Yeah. [laughs] So thanks, man. Yeah. Um- What about produce? We didn't do any animals.

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We didn't do any animals. [laughs] Um, okay. But, uh- Yeah... so, uh, on, on the, the audience now. So the most recent number I could find is that you have 230,000 people on the overall mailing list.

220
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Is that, is that about right? That is not correct. Um, and the reason it's not correct is because we actually just sold a newsletter that we- Mm... um, had.

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Um, this was a newsletter called Stocks and Income Newsletter, and so we had acquired this newsletter, uh, a few years ago- Mm-hmm... and we kinda grew this.

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This was a mainstream investing newsletter very much focused on equities- Yeah... to a lesser degree income plays, but still very mainstream.

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We grew this for a while, um, and after a while we just realized, like, look, if we're gonna get serious and, you know, double down on community, on alternative high net worth alternative investing, like, we need to free up cash in order to- Mm...

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to double down on this. And so we made the decision to sell the Stocks and Income Newsletter, which we, we actually just sold. So since then our, our, our total reach has gone down. It's not 230 anymore.

225
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Um, but, uh, buying and selling newsletters is, oh my God, man, if we have time to talk about this, it's just the most underrated- And this is the time. Yeah. Let's do it, man.

226
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I mean, it's, it's- I under- I understand this has kinda been your main growth lever over the years, right? Not the main, but it has definitely been the s- Okay... the s- the biggest secondary one, for sure. Yeah.

227
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So this is, this is the fifth newsletter we've bought and sold. Maybe sixth. I can't keep up. We, we were doing- Inverse Cramer is another one I know. Oh, Cramer was the good one. Mm.

228
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So Cramer was the best one we've ever done. Oh, okay. So Cramer, man, we timed this one so well. We, we bought...

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So the, the, the founder of the Inverse Cramer Twitter account, I can't say his name, but he basically, uh, was, is in our community, and he comes up to me one day, and he's just like, "Hey, man, like, I'm awesome on Twitter, and I'm just so bad at newsletters.

230
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Do you wanna buy the, the rights to the Inverse Cramer newsletter?" I'm like, "Is the Twitter account for sale?" He's like, "No, no, no, no. Twitter account is not for sale."

231
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[laughs] "But, like, I'm willing to sell you the newsletter rights." And I'm like, "Okay, but how do we, like, share the brand?" He's like, "We'll figure it out," and is like, "Are you interested?"

232
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I'm like, "Yeah, I'm interested." And I said, "I'm interested because I'm terrible at Twitter, but I'm great at newsletters," [laughs] you know? So yeah. Like you were. We had a great [laughs]

233
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so we had a great synergy going, and, uh, we were able to buy the Inverse Cramer newsletter, and we just timed it so well.

234
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This was, like, right before Elon started, like, spouting off about Inverse Cramer and this and that. Like, it was, like, right as the meme was starting to get, like, really big, and we just, like, rode that wave.

235
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We've had a lot of people that came to us through the Inverse Cramer newsletter- Mm-hmm...

236
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and found us through Inverse Cramer, but, like, it happens, like, you know, we grew it, we grew it, and we're like, "Oh, man," like, it's still just not core to who we are. It's just not. Yeah.

237
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It's a little too much of a shtick. It's a little too much of a meme. It's a little... We're very, we're a serious company. Yeah.

238
00:36:39.010 --> 00:36:51.190
Like, we have fun and this and that, but, ah, it wasn't quite the vibe, the brand vibe we're going for. So we decided to sell it, and so yeah, we sold that, um, God, when was it? That was last year. Mm-hmm. Um, so yeah.

239
00:36:51.270 --> 00:37:01.010
Yeah. Buying and selling newsletters is a huge part of what we do. I, I think it's, it's a, it's a complicated world in many ways, but oh man, it's, I, I love it. I love everything about it. So one question about that.

240
00:37:01.310 --> 00:37:12.166
Stocks and Income was the one you recently sold, right? You said? Yes. So if that's 100,000 people on there- Yeah... um, what, and, and, and you-You, you, what do you lose by selling that? Is it sponsorship income?

241
00:37:12.246 --> 00:37:22.736
Is it potential people to join the community? What's your loss at selling that? Well, this is just what we fou- So you're right. It's 100,000 people on that, so our number now would be down to about 130 in to- Yeah...

242
00:37:22.746 --> 00:37:32.886
in terms of total reach. 130, 140, that area. Um, what we lose is we lose the right to email 100,000 people every day, like period. Yeah. Like, let's just be clear. Like, that's what we're losing.

243
00:37:33.146 --> 00:37:38.906
Um- But, but what is that? I mean, is that, is that sponsorship income that you'd be gaining by emailing them? So- Or is it, is it funnel for the email? Yeah.

244
00:37:39.426 --> 00:37:50.646
No, so for us it w- what we found was that community was sort of conducive to alternative investing, but- Mm... not conducive enough to make it worth keeping. Yeah.

245
00:37:50.656 --> 00:37:59.676
And so it was sponsorship revenue, but again, we're, we're trying to get away from sponsorships. Yeah. Like, we are at an inflection point right now where, like, we started as a newsletter.

246
00:37:59.746 --> 00:38:10.226
We sold sponsorships like crazy, like better than the average company by the way. [laughs] Um, but like we realized that that's not really a great business. Yeah. Like, that's not a good model.

247
00:38:10.346 --> 00:38:18.716
Like man, like, and this is where things get a little, uh, you know, let's be honest, like m- media's tough. Sponsorships are tough. Yeah. Like I, I know this game extremely well.

248
00:38:18.866 --> 00:38:28.366
I happen to I think be quite good at it, but like it is not something I wanna be doing forever, like no question. Mm-hmm. Getting off of that crack pipe, okay, getting off of that hobby horse is like tough.

249
00:38:28.396 --> 00:38:30.246
It is- Yeah... it cannot happen overnight.

250
00:38:30.966 --> 00:38:42.456
This takes time, and it, it's, um, we are just now finally starting to move past where like that is a thing we used to do as opposed to a thing we do for like most of our revenue. Mm.

251
00:38:42.546 --> 00:38:55.746
I feel very lucky about that, but it also took a lot of work. Um, I'm pretty bearish I have to say on the future of, uh, newsletter sponsorships and, and, and media in general. I think it'll always be a,

252
00:38:56.706 --> 00:39:01.106
um, a great part of a, a, a business. Yeah. I think it, it, it's...

253
00:39:01.126 --> 00:39:10.506
But I, I think if you're relying on it fully, man, you got, you gotta realize you need massive scale to make the numbers work, and even then they're kind of ugly. Yeah. And that's the truth of it.

254
00:39:10.626 --> 00:39:17.525
I hate to say it, but uh- Well, you, you need massive scale or you need a precise audience, and even then it's only ever gonna be one... Unless you're m- unless you're just one person.

255
00:39:17.566 --> 00:39:22.186
The person we published today as we record this, Suraj Kapoor, he, I don't know exactly how much he makes.

256
00:39:22.206 --> 00:39:29.406
It's somewhere in the six figures, but it's really just him running this, and he has 40,000 people, and it's- Sure... uh, you know, engineering leaders.

257
00:39:29.516 --> 00:39:36.315
So it's very easy for him to sell to, you know, like, uh, developer service tools. Um, but- Yeah...

258
00:39:36.326 --> 00:39:45.226
again, this goes back to that quote I, I said earlier from, from my co-host of the other podcast, uh, Daisy, where your core product if you're a media company is actually community events, data, or something like that.

259
00:39:45.546 --> 00:39:55.666
Sponsorships- Yeah... are only ever really like a, a thing on top that covers some of the bills, not all the bills. They, they, they're a thing on top, but they, they, th- they can't...

260
00:39:55.716 --> 00:40:05.406
They, they, economically they just can't create a big business anymore. Yeah. Like that, that's just... And it's kinda sad because, I mean, kingdoms were made in the old days off of sponsorships, you know?

261
00:40:05.486 --> 00:40:15.046
I mean, the Hearsts. Yeah. The, uh, I mean, but like those days are just they're over, man. Like, there's no... I mean, it's gotten to the point now where like, like I don't know if you've seen our media kit.

262
00:40:15.166 --> 00:40:23.226
Um, it's not even called a media kit anymore. It's a lead gen kit. Right? Yeah. Like, I'm not, I'm not interested in opens and clicks. Yeah. Okay? Those are, those are vanity metrics.

263
00:40:23.286 --> 00:40:31.456
Like, I'm interested in the, in generating leads for our com- uh, for our, uh, clients. Like, that's it. Like, that's, that's the path forward. That's the only path that makes sense.

264
00:40:31.606 --> 00:40:41.346
And like, so yeah, I mean, i- it's, you know, I, I think that, uh, every newsletter at some point like needs to make a decision, like what kind of business they wanna be in the long run.

265
00:40:41.386 --> 00:40:46.986
I, I think if you are a solo creator, you can do very well just selling sponsorships. Yeah. Like I know plenty of folks like that.

266
00:40:47.336 --> 00:40:54.386
But like I think if you're trying to build a business, build a company, build something that scales, build something r- extra special, like yeah, it's, you're not gonna get it through sponsorships.

267
00:40:54.406 --> 00:41:01.466
I mean, Semafor, one of the, one of the best newsletter businesses out there right now, one of the best design new- designed newsletters in my opinion, they're an events company.

268
00:41:01.606 --> 00:41:10.366
I believe that's how they make most of their revenue. Well, it's funny, so event... Can we talk about events real quick? Yeah. Yeah. Oh, let's... And, uh, your, uh, the, the city gatherings you do and such? Yeah.

269
00:41:10.406 --> 00:41:22.766
This is interesting. So look, w- events have, uh, always been something we've wanted to do- Yeah... more of. This year we've really started to kick that up a notch. Um, uh, the, uh, the...

270
00:41:22.846 --> 00:41:28.015
I think there's a couple things going on. There's kind of this big tailwind right now with like real life get-togethers, and like- Mm...

271
00:41:28.026 --> 00:41:38.366
there's a million apps for, you know, have dinner with five strangers and like, you know, just, you know, meet and play paddle or pickleball or whatever. Productizing going to a bar. Like, so that's- Yeah. Yeah, exactly.

272
00:41:38.406 --> 00:41:48.886
Yeah. [laughs] And so like that's definitely like, like happening. Um, but for us, we're alternative, as you know. Yeah. So we're trying to figure out, okay, what can we give people that they can't get somewhere else?

273
00:41:48.906 --> 00:41:56.926
And so once again, we tap into the community. So let's reach out to the community. Let's see what cool stuff is out there through friends of friends and this and that.

274
00:41:56.955 --> 00:42:05.056
And uh, so just this past, uh, few months we did an event in San Francisco, which was hosted at a incredible beachside mansion.

275
00:42:05.826 --> 00:42:14.826
Um, friend of a friend in the community hooked us up, you know, so we gathered everyone there. Great recruiting event. Great, uh, uh, place for Altea members to connect.

276
00:42:14.866 --> 00:42:25.736
We then went down to Austin, where we did a, a huge event in an airplane hangar, an actual hangar that we basically turned into a, a giant party for the evening. [laughs] Um, but you know, an investment party. Yeah.

277
00:42:25.746 --> 00:42:35.026
I mean, there was a lot of great discussion there. We had some really high profile folks, and we had, uh, a, um, NFL player join us. Mm. I mean, it was really, really cool stuff.

278
00:42:35.066 --> 00:42:43.326
Um, and we're starting to do this more and more, and they're actually being led by the community itself- Yeah... um, through what we call city captains. So now we have got a city captain in LA.

279
00:42:43.406 --> 00:42:53.756
We've got a city captain in New York. And these folks are organizing the events, and they're getting a little slice of the action as well themselves, but it's kinda like the power users within the community. Yeah.

280
00:42:53.766 --> 00:42:55.596
So that's, um, that's, that's gone really well for those type of events.

281
00:42:55.606 --> 00:43:05.366
Well, I've noticed on your LinkedIn in just about the past month there was kind of a chain of you reposting people posting, "I've been, I've, I am now a city captain of Altea." Yeah.

282
00:43:05.426 --> 00:43:06.896
Um, so that seems to be a pretty recent development, yeah?

283
00:43:07.946 --> 00:43:16.810
Yeah, and I think th- it's like people, you know, there's a financial incentive for them, but I think for a lot of people it's just, you know-They just wanna be known, like in their city- Yeah...

284
00:43:16.820 --> 00:43:25.370
as like the cool person who's doing cool stuff, and hooking up with cool companies, and getting people together, and making connections. And like, man, I get it, like I wanna be that too, you know?

285
00:43:25.560 --> 00:43:31.310
[laughs] So it's- Yeah. Well, you, it seems, it seems like that- Yeah... that's kinda what you do for a living, so you're in luck. No, I mean, it, it makes- Yeah... it makes a lot of sense.

286
00:43:31.370 --> 00:43:38.070
Going back to what we were saying- Yeah... much earlier about community as this, this kind of C word, and what does it mean, and, you know, it, it doesn't really mean anything.

287
00:43:38.110 --> 00:43:48.810
Like, the more people, 'cause I've been speaking a lot recently to people who have some sort of community aspect to, to their business as a creator, whatever it may be, as the media company, um, and there's two things.

288
00:43:48.870 --> 00:43:55.170
It's, it's the, it's the, like the shared interest, the shared values, and it's the ability to also connect in real life.

289
00:43:55.210 --> 00:44:04.310
And usually the, like Milia Tamadi, she has, um, in the generalist world community, these people do meet up in, in, in different cities. Yeah. And she's got all these different meetups planned.

290
00:44:04.830 --> 00:44:06.930
Um, that's, that, that's what makes it successful.

291
00:44:07.330 --> 00:44:22.110
Uh, so I don't know if, if you're able to share how many exactly people are in this community, but I imagine that there has to have been some sort of critical mass that enabled this and enabled the culture to really go from, you know, on screen to, to meeting up in real life, right?

292
00:44:22.870 --> 00:44:31.270
Yeah, it's funny. I mean, we, we... You can see, if you go into the community now, you see I think 'cause we're just about to crest 1,000, um- Mm-hmm... in the, in the community. But it's funny because, like,

293
00:44:32.330 --> 00:44:42.390
the, the, there's so many... This is a process of turning email subscribers into community members. Mm-hmm. One is a lot more valuable than the other, right? Like, we know this, right?

294
00:44:42.450 --> 00:44:52.170
And like, that does not kind of like happen overnight, but like, man, we are definitely, we've got the equation right now where it's like, okay, like email is how you found us and what you know of us.

295
00:44:52.740 --> 00:45:01.660
Things are changing, guys. Like, click here, join, uh, you know, st- you know, create a Circle account. Like, it's a little bit of friction. I'm not gonna lie. Yeah.

296
00:45:01.660 --> 00:45:09.490
Like, it's like, "Wait, I already get your emails, don't I?" It's like, nah, it gets a lot better than that, right? Yeah. So it's kinda like re, you know, kinda inventing ourselves a little bit.

297
00:45:09.610 --> 00:45:16.130
But luckily, like the email is such a great core for all of this. Yeah. And that's like how it has been for ages.

298
00:45:16.170 --> 00:45:27.290
And, and for all the trash talk about, you know, sponsorships and email is broken in this way, and AI slop, like, uh, I fundamentally believe that email is still a fantastic, fantastic- Yeah...

299
00:45:27.350 --> 00:45:35.580
way to grow a business, but you've gotta get off of it and build something bigger than the sum of its parts. So I, I do think you're, um- Yeah... you know Which is, well, that's really interesting too- Yeah...

300
00:45:35.600 --> 00:45:45.950
'cause I always talk about how like on, you know, you should be on all the social platforms and build an audience there, but you wanna liquidate your content capital into an email list because that's the only one that you can actually export.

301
00:45:46.010 --> 00:45:52.530
You can export a, a- Yeah... CSV with all your email files, and that's the only truly owned form of audience on the internet.

302
00:45:52.870 --> 00:45:59.200
But I hadn't heard somebody say, "Well, actually, you wanna consolidate even from email into a community," which makes a lot of sense- I think so...

303
00:45:59.200 --> 00:46:09.810
because that's where it's actually real connections that people build with each other and, and with the leaders of the community, and that is more lasting than any follower subscription. I think so.

304
00:46:09.920 --> 00:46:19.450
Look, I, I, I agree with what you're saying 100%. Mm-hmm. I think that f- I've always been of the mindset of exactly what you said, like social is, is like not owned at all. Yeah. Email is fundamentally better.

305
00:46:19.600 --> 00:46:27.270
This goes back to even podcasting. Yeah. It's like, you know, you don't know the people's names. Yes. You don't know their, what, you know- The words... I mean, that's a huge flaw. It's a huge- Yeah... flaw.

306
00:46:27.350 --> 00:46:34.490
The protocol is broken. Whereas email is just we're, we're all kind of hijacking this protocol that's been around for 30 years. Mm-hmm.

307
00:46:34.570 --> 00:46:42.610
And we're using it for our own interests, and like [laughs] that is what it is, but I do believe that it does get one step deeper. And I think we have time.

308
00:46:43.190 --> 00:46:53.330
I don't think, uh, you know, it's something that, you know, you, you, um, need to worry about going away tomorrow, but man, things are changing. Inboxes are changing. AI summaries are here.

309
00:46:53.450 --> 00:47:04.310
Um, sorting of emails is big now. I, I think, I don't think email's fundamentally safe like people thought it was a few years ago. Yeah. And I think you absolutely need to take it one step further.

310
00:47:04.490 --> 00:47:16.870
Luckily, community is kind of the last step. Like, that is a true, like, moat. It doesn't get any more, like, owned than that. Yeah. Like, that's, like that makes me, that helps me sleep at night. [laughs] Yeah, totally.

311
00:47:17.010 --> 00:47:20.150
Um, one more thing on the list acquisitions. I was curious about this.

312
00:47:20.390 --> 00:47:28.750
Uh, I don't know, maybe you already gave a, a perfect enough example and we don't have to keep talking about it, but, um, I've talked to other people recently from, from HubSpot.

313
00:47:28.970 --> 00:47:38.210
Um, I talked to Jonathan Hunt from there last week, and a few months before I talked to Adam Biddlecombe from Mindstream, an AI editorial newsletter that HubSpot acquired.

314
00:47:38.230 --> 00:47:48.030
And I, I talked to both of them a bit about, um, like this, the difficulties of acquiring an independent media brand, acquiring a newsletter, bringing people in, how do you keep the quality up?

315
00:47:48.050 --> 00:47:57.250
How do you keep the incentives and motivation up? Um, so I don't know if you have like s- maybe a boilerplate policy that you practice in these acquisitions, um- Yeah...

316
00:47:57.330 --> 00:48:06.810
or just what are the kind of the intricacies and pitfalls, maybe advice then that you would give to anybody who's either looking to be acquired or looking to acquire independent media properties?

317
00:48:06.820 --> 00:48:18.530
I, I'd say, look, there, there's a lot I can get into. I'll, to keep it simple- Mm-hmm... I'll say that, um, when you acquire a media company or a, a, a newsletter, um, take it slow. [laughs] Okay?

318
00:48:18.610 --> 00:48:35.170
Like, do not, uh, waste the chance you have to intelligently and authentically weave the new folks with what you're doing, but make sure you're weaving it together, not forcing it upon them. You've gotta take it slow.

319
00:48:35.230 --> 00:48:43.850
It sh- the, the process of integrating two newsletters together should take months. Mm-hmm. There is no question about it. You'll get in trouble if you do anything else. Yeah.

320
00:48:43.870 --> 00:48:50.620
I mean, you will, you will get burned, and you, good luck recovering from that. People get mad. "Why the hell did I sign up for this? I never signed up for this," even if they- They'd be livid...

321
00:48:50.650 --> 00:48:58.220
received and opened the email that says, "Hey, we've been acquired by so and so." Like- Doesn't matter... w- their email's great. Yeah. People are, people are gonna snap. Doesn't matter. Mm-hmm.

322
00:48:58.530 --> 00:49:06.350
A- and I, I, it, it's, it's so important that we actually, when we sell a newsletter, we require, we put it in writing with the new buyer- Mm-hmm...

323
00:49:06.360 --> 00:49:12.290
like, "You've gotta do the same because I, I don't want you just treating our-" Bounce back on me. Exactly. Yeah. Right?

324
00:49:12.450 --> 00:49:24.530
So like the, the gentleman who bought Stock- Stocks and Income has done a terrific job of this, like just spectacular, and I knew he would.Um, so yeah, like, the, the buyer of your newsletter asset matters as well.

325
00:49:24.610 --> 00:49:33.290
Um, but that, that's the one piece of advice. If anyone's interested and really wants to talk shop on this, there's a lot of cool nuance. I'd... Please just reach out to me, stefan@alts.co.

326
00:49:33.990 --> 00:49:38.710
Um, but, uh, yeah, at a high level I would say just take it slow. Yeah. Be deliberate, be authentic.

327
00:49:39.350 --> 00:49:46.930
Uh, riffing on this a little bit, something you brought up to me, um, before we were getting on the call was this newsletter remix idea, which I think is really interesting.

328
00:49:46.970 --> 00:49:55.770
I don't know if you saw my, the Creator Spotlight from Friday where I talked a bit about, um, like plagiarism and remixing and copying, mimicry within the creator economy.

329
00:49:55.970 --> 00:50:03.130
Uh, I, [laughs] I'm gonna quote myself here, which is a little, a little gauche, but, uh, but, [laughs] I wrote it, but I can say it.

330
00:50:03.190 --> 00:50:15.110
Um, so I said, "Mimicry, remixing, and plagiarism are all features of the creator economy. They are not bugs. Platforms make commodities of most ideas. Speed and distribution comprise the delta."

331
00:50:15.210 --> 00:50:19.290
Um, so, that, uh, that's, that was, my take there was, it was inspired by two things.

332
00:50:19.330 --> 00:50:28.730
It was inspired by, um, one, this plagiarism scandal that happened on Substack that was just straight plagiarism, um, direct copying, and then also Millie Tamati, who we've talked about a few times now.

333
00:50:28.790 --> 00:50:34.330
She had brought up this idea of how to build a defensible personal brand, and I kind of wanted to try testing those two things together.

334
00:50:34.610 --> 00:50:45.630
But my take on, um, remixing, plagiarism, copying, and I'm not the only person with this take, when I was doing research I found other people who were writing about this, is that post-TikTok, it's really ingrained, because TikTok is- Yeah...

335
00:50:45.650 --> 00:50:57.930
is about remixing and copying. So then that bleeds into other media, other platforms, other, other forms, um, where it's like the, the norms of, like, how do I reference? How do I just...

336
00:50:58.090 --> 00:51:06.790
To what degree can I just take and, and, you know, make this thing my own? Like, is just me taking it enough recontextualizing? Which now we're getting into some, like, Andy Warhol, Richard Prince kind of thing.

337
00:51:07.170 --> 00:51:21.610
Um, but [laughs] enough preamble. Um, I'm really curious what this newsletter remix concept you have is. It kind of started, um, with the idea of, like, what's the equivalent of a, a retweet in the newsletter world?

338
00:51:22.090 --> 00:51:25.260
Um, or I shouldn't say a, a retweet, but a quote tweet, right? Yeah.

339
00:51:25.290 --> 00:51:35.290
So not just a, you know, let's just do a guest post, but, like, what's the equivalent of, like, okay, here's a guest post, but then we're also gonna add our own little flavor to things, right? Yeah.

340
00:51:35.830 --> 00:51:46.770
And I think we owe it to our, our audience to do s- to do, um, a little bit better than just a standard kind of, like, guest post. Um, I think guest posts are okay.

341
00:51:46.830 --> 00:51:55.410
They're, they're not bad, but I think if you do them too much, people are like, "What am I really signing up for here?" Yeah. I mean, like, what are you, what are you- I wanted your voice. I wanted your voice. Exactly.

342
00:51:55.570 --> 00:51:59.890
So it kind of started about a year, maybe a year and change ago, [clicks tongue]

343
00:51:59.950 --> 00:52:06.790
and, um, there, there's a couple other newsletters out there that I just love, and the, the, the, um, topics are what we would talk about anyways.

344
00:52:06.810 --> 00:52:11.110
And so I basically kind of approached these guys and I'm like, "Hey, I really love this issue.

345
00:52:11.190 --> 00:52:18.990
Like, I'd love to get it in front of our, you know, 100,000 plus community members, but do you mind if I actually kind of tweak it a little bit and, like, add my own two cents?" And who's gonna say no?

346
00:52:19.090 --> 00:52:28.910
Like, no one's like- Yeah... "No, that's my writing." Like, everyone's like, "Wait, free subs for me, and, like, I don't have to do anything? Like, sure." And, like, so, um, that's exactly how that stuff went, went down.

347
00:52:28.950 --> 00:52:41.490
And, and so now it's, I'd say, like, once every six weeks, maybe every two months, we take someone's guest post and we just remix it. Yeah. We add our own intro. We add our own closing thoughts. We, um...

348
00:52:41.530 --> 00:52:46.250
I'm a big fan of kind of, like, adding more, like, imagery and, like, content and, like, just...

349
00:52:46.810 --> 00:52:58.260
We basically splice up the piece so it re- retains its core soul, and it's still written by the, the core author, but we put our own flavor into it. We put our own fingerprint on it. It's a cover.

350
00:52:58.320 --> 00:53:06.770
And that's what people want. It's a cover. It's a cover song. That's it. And it's just, it's kind of, you know... I, I do see other people doing it now.

351
00:53:06.830 --> 00:53:15.080
Um, I do think we're on the leading edge of, of folks who do it, but we kind of do it in our own way, and I, I- Yeah... you know, I think that's, that's great. I'm, I'm... It's, uh, something I'm pretty happy with.

352
00:53:15.110 --> 00:53:21.740
Intellectual exchange, basically. Um, speaking of songs, I know you're a big physical media guy. You've talked in multiple interviews- Yeah...

353
00:53:21.740 --> 00:53:28.230
about, uh, your, uh, one of your prized possessions is this, uh, I think it was Revolver. Or I'm, I'm getting two things mixed up.

354
00:53:28.270 --> 00:53:40.699
I think you have a g- mastered edition of Revolver from the '80s, and then you also have a, uh, or maybe Alts collectively bought an original Beatles White Album pressing that John Lennon had owned. Um- Yeah...

355
00:53:40.730 --> 00:53:48.470
ha- from other [laughs] video interviews I've seen with you, I think your record player is somewhere just to your left there, unless you've replaced it. [laughs] That's exactly right. It's literally right here.

356
00:53:48.830 --> 00:53:56.450
[laughs] I could tell. So I know you're a big media guy. You also said in another interview that every, you know, every Friday you go and buy a few DVDs. Um, [laughs] that- Yes.

357
00:53:56.510 --> 00:54:04.839
I'm just saying too much about my research just to say it. But, uh- No, that's all right, man... I, uh, my, my question to you is, would you ever make some kind of physical media as part of Alts?

358
00:54:04.870 --> 00:54:13.590
Would you make, like, some magazine that is just for the people in the community? Obviously, it's a big investment, but it's like, I, I, I do see some people make, doing that.

359
00:54:13.670 --> 00:54:22.270
Future Commerce, I don't know if you're familiar with them. Uh, every year- Mm-hmm... they put together the, the... They're like kind of a, an, an e-commerce focused editorial, great product.

360
00:54:22.350 --> 00:54:32.250
Um, every year they put together this beautiful bound book, and they sell it for $75 or $99, one of those two prices. Um, so you're a bit... You, you clearly care about physical media.

361
00:54:32.290 --> 00:54:45.589
Would you ever try to produce something around that for Alts? I'm intrigued by that world, man. Um, you know, like, I, I, I'm always interested in things that people have written off and people aren't doing, right?

362
00:54:45.660 --> 00:54:56.070
Mm-hmm. Um, you know, uh, just the other day I was, uh, driving down the, the, uh, freeway and I saw, like, a billboard, and I'm like, man, like, I feel like billboards are underrated as, like, an advertising mechanism.

363
00:54:56.530 --> 00:54:59.390
Yeah. Um, you know, I feel like radio is underrated.

364
00:54:59.430 --> 00:55:05.130
Like, the stuff that everyone's kind of thrown away and, like, moved past, like, that's the stuff I'm like, you know, obsessed- That's, that's what Alt's ab- all about, baby.

365
00:55:05.140 --> 00:55:11.210
Look at, look at the other direction of the pendulum. [laughs] That's it. Well, look at vinyl records, man. [laughs] I mean, not to be that guy, but, like- Yeah...

366
00:55:11.230 --> 00:55:21.350
I liked vinyl before it was cool, and now it's- [laughs] My, my vinyl portfolio is up 10% year over year- Yeah... for the past five years. So- Mm-hmm... so yeah, I mean, to answer your question, look, it's intriguing.

367
00:55:21.590 --> 00:55:26.426
I, I, I can't say there's absolutely any plans.But man, it's a side burner. You know?

368
00:55:26.486 --> 00:55:34.356
It's like in the back of my mind I'm like, yeah, like I see, every now and then I see someone doing a magazine, a physical magazine for high net worth, like luxury- Yeah...

369
00:55:34.356 --> 00:55:44.326
lifestyle stuff, and I'm like, oh, man, that's interesting. But it's just the opportunity cost, you know, right now for us. Yeah. I mean, like I said- That would be a vanity project... I, I th- I think so.

370
00:55:44.406 --> 00:55:53.406
I think, I think, uh, it would be fun, but I, yeah, like I, it's, if, when we talk about opportunity cost, man, like we gotta, we gotta get y- we gotta get our YouTube game, uh, going. Yeah.

371
00:55:53.426 --> 00:55:59.846
And by the way, if there's anyone out there who wants to help us and is like a YouTube expert, like reach out, man. Like, I am all ears. Like, we are...

372
00:55:59.866 --> 00:56:09.316
Like, I always say, like, the, the delta between the coolness of what we're doing and the uniqueness of what we're bringing to the world and, like, our YouTube presence could, like, fill the Grand Canyon. [laughs] Yeah.

373
00:56:09.346 --> 00:56:13.566
So, um, yeah, feel free to help us out, man. I'd love to talk. Dude, YouTube is, YouTube is so hard.

374
00:56:13.626 --> 00:56:21.916
Even with this it's like someday I know we need to, once we can justify it in terms of budget, we need to, I need to have like an in-person recording and stuff, right? Like, you've come pretty correct.

375
00:56:21.946 --> 00:56:29.105
You've got like a good camera, you've got a good microphone, et cetera. Like, you, you've come prepared to do this podcast. But most people don't have that.

376
00:56:29.156 --> 00:56:36.006
And o- you know, luckily I talk to a lot of people who maybe they do do podcasts for a living or, you know, they, they have a mic because they're in the creator economy.

377
00:56:36.046 --> 00:56:48.726
But that's one of the really hard things about doing a video podcast is like I can control my environment, but nobody, again, like you're kind of an exception to this, but people generally aren't, they don't really know how to come pr- prepared for it, but even if I give them the pre-notes.

378
00:56:49.266 --> 00:56:52.586
Um, anyway. Yeah. That's my little rant. Uh, okay.

379
00:56:53.006 --> 00:57:05.756
So I do want to ask about that creator question that I referenced a little bit a while ago, and this is, this is one that it's, um, it's more just I'm always curious to see how different somebody's answer is.

380
00:57:05.766 --> 00:57:19.226
But, but like I said, for a, for a long time my definition of creator has been somebody creating digital media for distribution on digital platforms, growing an audience for it, and then monetizing it somehow, whether it's directly through sponsorships or indirectly as, as you do.

381
00:57:19.666 --> 00:57:27.866
Um, so you're a creator, right, in that sense. But then more and more, uh, I'm like is there a tipping point where that person no longer becomes a creator?

382
00:57:28.006 --> 00:57:36.996
Like MrBeast, I think he's largely monetized through Feastables, the chocolate company, right? Like, is he just a chocolatier with a, you know, great marketing media arm?

383
00:57:37.326 --> 00:57:46.466
And you, you're trying to get this to be like, you're like weaning down the sponsorships. Ideally it sounds like this becomes something el- It's, yes, it's the community. Yes, it's the events.

384
00:57:46.486 --> 00:57:53.946
It's the, it's the fund, and maybe the, the m- media is minimum. Maybe it's just like a private newsletter for just people in the community. I don't know, right?

385
00:57:54.306 --> 00:58:02.686
And then people, um, like the, the, the Slow Ventures fund, they just invested, uh, it was announced, 2 million in this, like, woodworking YouTuber guy.

386
00:58:03.206 --> 00:58:12.326
Um, and he sells a bunch of pro- He has like 1,000 products that he sells. Some of them they make in their studio. Some they sell, I don't know what kind of revenue he's doing. But all that to say, like,

387
00:58:13.686 --> 00:58:22.396
what the hell even is a cr- [laughs] is a creator at this point? Man, I, I'm not one for, uh... I, I don't like buzzwords at all. Yeah.

388
00:58:22.436 --> 00:58:27.135
And like I, I honestly like, you know, I hear the word creator and it means 10 different things to 10 different people. Exactly.

389
00:58:27.166 --> 00:58:34.195
I, I do think your definition was really good, by the way, the one that you said at the beginning. That's, that's actually like the best definition I think you, we, you could have.

390
00:58:35.006 --> 00:58:46.156
I think the, the, the main thing that creators have to just ask themselves in terms of like who are we, what are we doing, like is just when you think about who you're creating for, your audience- Mm...

391
00:58:46.186 --> 00:58:57.746
okay, or y- your community, are you selling to them, or are you developing value with them? Mm. Two very different things. Two very different things.

392
00:58:57.886 --> 00:59:08.036
I know some great creators, newsletter writers, and then you see the sponsors they work with, and I'm like, "Guys, this is fucking comical." [laughs] Like, "This is, this is so beneath you. Like, why- Mm...

393
00:59:08.036 --> 00:59:19.546
are you doing a $1.50 CPC deal for some beauty brand? Like, what are you doing? Just don't run an ad." Like- Well, because so many great creators are not good business people. Th- they're, that's true.

394
00:59:19.866 --> 00:59:25.726
And, and I, but I think they, it, there's a fundamental respect you need to have for your, your audience, your community.

395
00:59:25.836 --> 00:59:37.306
And so for like for us, that means, like, if we're gonna work with a, um, you know, a, a sponsor, like it's gotta be someone that we've, like, w- vetted or, more importantly, it's someone we're doing business with. Mm.

396
00:59:37.426 --> 00:59:45.936
So, like when we have sp- There are exceptions, don't get me wrong. But when we have sponsors, it's not just like, "Hey, guys, these guys paid to be in the newsletter. Click, click, click." Yeah.

397
00:59:46.006 --> 00:59:55.326
It's like we've been working with these guys for three months, okay? Maybe six months. They've come to our events in San Francisco and New York. We're starting to really trust them.

398
00:59:55.946 --> 01:00:07.546
By the way, we're thinking of investing in this deal. Mm. Do you want to invest with us? Express interest to you... That's a totally fundamental different relationship you have with the client and with your audience.

399
01:00:07.726 --> 01:00:07.886
Yeah.

400
01:00:08.506 --> 01:00:27.136
To the degree that that's something a creator would do, you know, I don't, I don't know if that fits in neatly to your definition, but I think where I w- I, what I would encourage creators to do is just really think clearly and, and, and think hard about, you know, like am I just selling to my audience or am I g- developing value for them, growing with them?

401
01:00:27.236 --> 01:00:32.666
Yeah. For us, man, we are squarely in the latter camp. Easy, yeah. Like 100%, yeah. Yeah.

402
01:00:32.806 --> 01:00:40.506
No, I mean, even, the more I talk about it, sometimes I'm like, sometimes I'm frustrated that it, it's a word that I have to focus on. I inherited the name Creator Spotlight, right?

403
01:00:40.546 --> 01:00:48.586
And so, like i- I have to understand what is th- what i- the reason I have to, had to come up with a definition is because it's like, well, how do I pick who I interview, right? I have to tune that.

404
01:00:48.866 --> 01:01:00.206
But it's, it's, it's a real, like, bailing out the boat type of problem because, you know, every different platform uses it in a different way and th- nobody's ever, there's never gonna be a fully unified definition.

405
01:01:00.326 --> 01:01:08.446
I try to define it on, on this turf, in the podcast and in the newsletter, but, um, you know, outside of that it's, uh, it's tough. But okay, last thing.

406
01:01:08.886 --> 01:01:18.406
Um, we talked earlier, you know, what, what if you come back in two years? If you do come back in two years, what's new? What, where is this business? Uh, what are you excited to tell me about?

407
01:01:19.666 --> 01:01:28.586
This is the only question where I gotta, I gotta fluff a little bit and, and I can't give you what we're, what we're planning. It's, it's always gonna be fluff. Th- [laughs] The, the two year question- Two year...

408
01:01:28.636 --> 01:01:38.066
I always ask it. It's never... Best laid plans of mice and men, right? I don't know. Man, I, I, I'm not one... I, I like interviews where people are honest. I think I've been honest this whole interview.

409
01:01:38.386 --> 01:01:47.526
This is the only question where I gotta be like, "I actually can't tell you what we're working on next." Uh, but I will say this. Like, we will always be like one step ahead of what everyone else is doing.

410
01:01:47.586 --> 01:01:55.566
Like, one, one thing about us, like you can love us, you can hate us, like I don't think people hate us, but like we are definitely not like trend followers.

411
01:01:55.606 --> 01:02:06.026
[laughs] Like, we are like, we tend to be on the leading edge of like what's happening. Yeah. And I've given a bunch of examples in this, in this call. Um, and we will continue that line of, uh, thinking.

412
01:02:06.146 --> 01:02:16.466
I, I hate to, I hate to balk on it and fluff. That's human. I just, I, I, I will say that it's very interesting. It's very exciting. It will fundamentally continue to change our company, and, uh, [laughs]

413
01:02:16.586 --> 01:02:23.216
that's all I can say. I'm sorry, man. Look, we, we love to- Boy, did I screw that last one up, man. No. I'm sorry. We love to end on a cliffhanger, uh, you know? Ah.

414
01:02:23.266 --> 01:02:33.306
So, so listener, you can follow [laughs] along and, and we'll see you next week. Go to alts.co. Subscribe to the newsletter. Stefan, thank you for coming on. Thank you so much, man. This was great. Yes.

415
01:02:33.426 --> 01:02:33.966
This was a pleasure.

416
01:02:36.106 --> 01:02:55.606
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