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I've always had, like, an entrepreneurial itch, which I think stems from, like, watching Iron Man. [laughs] In college, I was always, like, trying to swing way too big. I'm like, "I need, like, the best idea."

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You could literally just start an Instagram account tomorrow or start whatever, an email newsletter tomorrow. Let's talk about the business side of this for a little bit.

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So last year you broke six figures for the first time. Are you on track to better that this year? Uh, yes. But the first year, yeah, it was a couple hundred bucks, I think it was, like, total, like, 150, 200 bucks.

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Do you think that there's a cap on your audience size for the newsletter? We're not even 10% of the way there. Like, how much could just the newsletter make? Like, half a million is pretty realistic.

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I did wanna say, do you consider yourself a journalist? Uh, th-this, this is funny. So, uh- Welcome back to the Creator Spotlight podcast.

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My name is Francis Zier, and today I'm speaking with Landon Huselig, the creator of Wichita Life, which is, maybe you guessed, a local media company serving Wichita, Kansas.

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Started out life eight years ago as just an Instagram page where he would post pictures of cool stuff around Wichita, uh, and has since evolved into a six-figure media business, which includes a four times weekly newsletter, podcast, and a lot more.

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Landon is a really smart guy. This was a very fun episode. Enjoy.

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You told me that you felt like one of your edges is your commitment to hand-to-hand combat, and you felt like this isn't something that a lot of, like, podcasts or newsletters or whatever who do commentary in the space talk about.

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And I asked you what you meant by that, and you said that e- early on you would DM 50 followers per day. Uh, you started as an Instagram account, Wichita Life.

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You would DM 50 followers a day on LinkedIn, Instagram, Twitter, and ask them to sign up, that 70% of them would reply, 90% of the people who replied would say, "Yes, sign up for your newsletter."

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That's about 31 signups, which is the equivalent of about $40 on ads, you said. And I really loved how you, like, broke down this, like, really grinding it out behavior into, into value like that.

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So tell me more about what you mean when you talk about hand-to-hand combat and why that's an edge. Yes, absolutely.

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And it is interesting because I really don't know if I've really heard anybody else talk about this method. Like, everyone-- Like, I'm in the newsletter club, which I'm sure we'll, we'll get into. Oh, yeah.

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But, like, there's a lot of, like, kind of Twitter gurus now that are either, like, newsletter gurus or, like, local newsletter gurus. Um, but everything is, like, specific, like, meta ads, which- Mm-hmm...

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to be fair, some of these people are getting way cheaper subs than I've ever gotten. They're getting, like, 10 cent subs. I've never gotten it that cheap. Um, but when I first started...

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So we started as an Instagram account for three years. Three, yeah, just over three years before I started the newsletter. So it was just social media first.

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For a year, I just did kind of Instagram, and there wasn't a business behind this. It was just, like, posting cool stuff around Wichita 'cause all my friends had moved away, and so I was like, "Wichita's a cool place.

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Everyone should stay here." Um, then I started a pod- Move back. Exactly. Move back, please.

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Uh, then I started a podcast, so I did Instagram a year, podcast, and so I've been doing the podcast for six or seven years now. But then a few years later, I started the newsletter.

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So I had built up a decent following on social media across everything. It's always kinda Instagram and then go out from there. I start Instagram first.

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Um, but with that, I'm like, okay, I have, let's call it 20 or 30,000 followers on Instagram. Those people already like the content that I'm doing.

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Um, so when I started growing the newsletter, I mean, the first newsletter was literally just me scraping together, like, the couple hundred emails that I've emailed to people before, and like, "You guys are now my email list to start out."

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Um, but after that, I'm like, there's this huge audience of tens of thousands of people. Why don't I try to leverage this? And so I would just literally, like...

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I think the way I did it first, you can filter your followers, so it's, like, the people that followed you first. And so this was, again, I started it in April of 2017.

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So I would go to the top of the list, and, like, I recognize a lot of them because they were always liking my posts first when I wasn't very big, and they're still around.

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But I would j- go start messaging them and be like, "Hey, Emily, like, uh, you like Wichita Life. Would you be interested in a local newsletter that I, I just made covering local events?"

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Kinda what I do on the Instagram, but, like, a little bit more in-depth and, um, yeah. Like you said, it, it was kinda interesting to break down the numbers behind that because I, I say 50. I don't know how many.

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Some days it was probably 100. It was kinda like whenever I had 15 minutes, um, I did Instagram, I did Twitter, and then I also did on LinkedIn just 'cause I had a decent, like, LinkedIn audience growing up in Wichita.

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Mm-hmm. Going to Wichita State, working corporate job for 10 years. You got the full Wichita network. Exactly.

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So I'm like, okay, so I can just go message however many people on each of those, whether it's 20 a day on each or whatever. But okay, if you put a value to that, then and kinda break it down.

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I'm an engineer by trade, so, uh- Yeah... analytically, I like thinking of it like that. If there's 50 people that I DM a day,

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70% people reply 'cause it's pre-- Again, on Instagram, I'm, like, one of the authorities in the space, like, one of the top influencers is what people say. Um, so they're likely to respond to an account that's larger.

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They'll-- It'll kinda be at the top of the inbox and whatnot. And most people don't get that many DMs. Like, as a creator- Yeah...

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I think my mind is, like, a little, like, warped that, like, a lot of peop-people, everyone gets a ton of DMs, but that's not the case, I don't think. Like, my personal account doesn't. Yeah.

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So if you get a DM from a big account, you're g- probably gonna reply. So it's a high 70, 75% r-reply rate. Almost everybody says yes, 'cause why wouldn't? It's a free email. I'm just trying to give you value.

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I'm not asking you to subscribe or pay for anything. It's just- Well, and it's already proven. Oh, wait, wait. So when you- Yeah...

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when you had-- By the time the newsletter came out, how many followers did you have on Instagram? It had to be 20 to 30,000. I'm not sure exactly. Somewhere in that ballpark, yeah. So size is important. Let's call it 25.

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Yeah. And, and this was also, like, what? 2019? Uh, June of 2020 is when I started the newsletter. Okay. Yeah.

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And so I feel like the, the, the way the cr-creator economy has progressed, like, maybe back then things were a little less saturated. Yeah. Oh, for sure. So maybe now...

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I mean, now you could probably, you could definitely still do that if you have, like, a reputable account- Oh, yeah... and you're trying to get people to sign up. Yeah.

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But then especially, I think there's a higher degree of trust maybe than there is now. Oh, absolutely. Yeah, for sure. Yeah, 'cause I think, yeah, there's a way more kind of, like I said, influencers.

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Like, back then there was a couple of us in town doing it that are now... I mean, we're like the bigger accounts now, and we were then too, but now there's dozens of other smaller ones, smaller to big.

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Like, some of them have grown really fast. Uh, but there definitely was a lot of trust there. And so-Again, you kinda break it down. You can look at, like, if you picture... I don't know.

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I, I never, uh, did, like, the Russell Brunson stuff, but, like, the ClickFunnels, you kinda just imagine, like, okay, 50 people gets down to this many people, gets down to this many people that say yes.

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And, like, a lot of time I wouldn't even have them, like, I wouldn't send them the link to go subscribe. I would say, "What's your email?" Oh, I do too. And I would go and put it manually, or I would make a spreadsheet.

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Because at the end of the day I have 40 replies, I would just go write all the emails down and import a CSV into... I was using ConvertKit at the time. Mm-hmm.

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Uh, go invert that into Kit, and then there's my, my email's growing at a decent amount. And I mean, you either have money or you have time, [chuckles] right? And so I had no money then from, like...

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Like, I was, I was afraid to put money into it, like, at a- Yeah... at a large scale.

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Like, I wanted to prove it out, and, like, this is still a s- I mean, it's still a side hustle today, but, like, it was a side hustle that I'm like, I'm not- I don't wanna put my own income into it.

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Until I'm, like, making money, then I can kind of reinvest back into it. But if I can get 40 or 50 subscribers a day at, let's call it a dollar-ish, uh, I mean, that's $40- That's a really good price...

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I don't have to go spend. A couple thousand bucks a month that I'm saving or s- or making. And how... Wait, how much- Yeah... how much time would you be spending, like, um, to do- Uh, not much... those 50 DMs?

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I mean, think, uh, I mean, 20 minutes, 15 minutes, 20 minutes, and that's... It just, I mean, if you think about it, it's like- It's efficient... you just go down, first follower, DM. It...

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As I went, like, if I did it for, like, a month straight and I'd been the same method where it's like, okay- You have to scroll further. Yeah, exactly. [laughs] I gotta scroll farther.

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I'm, like, trying to remember who the last person was that I DM'd, 'cause then I would be like, "Go to this one. Okay. Nope. Already DM'd John. Already DM'd this guy. O- okay, here's one that I haven't DM'd."

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And then I'd start the list from there and work my way down. But, uh, yeah. So maybe 15 or 20 minutes.

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I feel like a more, a more, like, a growth hacky-minded person at the time would've been like, "I'm gonna hire the VA. I'm gonna get them- Right... to do it, et cetera." Right. And that's the even more value, et cetera.

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How much is my time worth? Um, is there anything else- It, it got to a funny point, though. Oh, go ahead.

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It got to a funny point, though, because I would DM, DM some people on Twitter and some people on LinkedIn and some people on Instagram, and they'd be like, "You already asked me this on Instagram," 'cause I'm not cross-referencing, and, like, sometimes the tag isn't, like, their LinkedIn name.

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So I would- Yeah... double. I'm like, "Oh, well, you already read it. Even better. Thanks for reading." That happened to me. And it's just like an interaction.

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That happened to me once before at a previous job where I was, like, in my boss's LinkedIn account sending- Mm-hmm... DMs in a similar way- Yeah... um, to try to get them to chat.

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And, like, I DM somebody, and then they replied like, "Oh, yeah, man, like, of course. Like, been a while, by the way. How are you?" And then he jumped in. He was like, "Oh, sorry.

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That was my, like, uh, biz dev guy, like, bummer." Right. It's like your- Uh [laughs]... your brother-in-law or something. Exactly. [laughs] Yeah, 'cause you don't know the connections. Yeah.

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[laughs] But then if, if you do know them, then it's, like, easily papered over. Um- Oh, for sure...

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besides this, like, DM stuff, is there anything else you've done that you would categorize under this hand-to-hand combat?

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I mean, honestly, I don't know if I've ever talked about this, but just, like, early days of Instagram, and it's completely different now, but, like, there was...

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And I didn't do it a ton, but, like, to really kickstart at the very, very beginning, it was like, okay, you start with zero. Nobody's seen your stuff. Even if, like- Yeah... Instagram, like, the algorithm's different.

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But, like, even if, let's say, 50% of your audience sees a post, which is, like, 5% today, if you have zero followers, nobody's seeing your stuff. [laughs] So, um- 5% of zero is zero. [laughs] Exactly. Exactly.

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So I would do a little bit of, like, the follow for follow stuff. Um, so it's like, whatever. I would just go see another big account or, like, one of the local news accounts, so, like, they're...

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were bad at Instagram then, they're bad at Instagram now, but, like, they might have 100 likes on a post or something, and I could just go follow those people, and then most of the time they would kind of follow me back.

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'Cause again, there wasn't any, like, other Wichita accounts. There was a couple, but there wasn't a ton of us back then. So, like, they would follow back. They're like, "Oh, this is cool."

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Like, "Oh, a new brewery opened or whatever." Um, so I did that a little bit early on that I would maybe consider, like, hand to hand. Um- Mm-hmm... but a lot of it is just, like, I mean, messaging people.

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Like, s- "What are you guys interested in?"

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Like, a, a lot of that, again, it's not scalable, but, like, to build up and understand what people like early on, that's one of the easiest ways, is just literally ask them, "What, what are you guys looking for?" Yeah.

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So, okay. And we can still do that today. Okay. So. Yeah. Which, I mean, now you're doing that probably through more channels. You're probably using polls, et cetera. Right. Oh, for sure. Yeah. Right? Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

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For sure. And, like, that's one thing on, uh, Beehiiv polls, I didn't realize. So I switched to Be- from ConvertKit to Beehiiv the first of the year. Okay.

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Um, and so I was, I was running polls, like, through January, and I didn't realize till February that people could comment on those polls as well. That's the best part. And so I... Yeah.

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And so I really didn't realize that, so I opened one one time. I was like, I kind of made my way through the dashboard. I'm like, oh my gosh, there's, like, 100 comments on this poll.

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I'm like, how did I miss all of this stuff? [laughs] So that's been a really good kind of get feedback quickly through the newsletter now. Mm-hmm. Do you...

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W- with those, um, do you still include a poll every time, and do you still get a good rate of feedback every time, or does it drop over time? Um, it just depends on what the question is. Mm.

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Like, we have, like, a big festival that, like, is kinda polarizing 'cause they charge 20 bucks for a whole week worth of entertainment.

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But, um, so I, I usually, like, ask people, like, what they think on that, one, for me, but then we also work with the festival company that puts that on. Mm. Um, so I can kinda provide them feedback without name.

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Like, I strip the emails away. We don't sell data or anything like that. But, like, give them the, like, the buttons are too expensive or this or that.

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Um, but, like, if I do, like, one about, like, our, I don't know, something random, sometimes it, it'll only get maybe 10. But there's times when it gets 50 to 100 com- or comments or posts or whatever they call them.

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Yeah. Um, but yeah, that, that's good feedback. That's a lot. Uh, okay, so I wanna paint a brief picture for the listener of what, of what this is. Yeah. So right now, Wichita Life is this media company.

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You could call it this local media company.

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It started just over eight years ago as an Instagram account, then you started doing a podcast, then you brought in a newsletter initially as a way to promote your podcast before you started, like, l- learning about newsletters and what they could be.

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Um, last year you broke six figures for the first time. So it's this thing that's really organically grown just kind of through what, what seems like your passion and your, like, care for- Mm-hmm...

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being a Wichitan, Wichitan. I don't really... How do you say it? Wichitan. Wichita- Yep, you nailed it. Yeah. [laughs] There you go.

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Um, but, uh, yeah, it's, it's really, it's really organically grown into this, this larger business that now there's, like, other more traditional media companies who are punching down on you, et cetera.

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Uh, a lot to get in here, or a lot to get into here with that. Um, I did wanna say, do you consider yourself a journalist? Uh, this, this is funny. So, uh, I, I don't know where I picked this up.

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I heard this somewhere, um, and maybe it wasn't the specific word, but I heard this concept before. But I consider myself a journalist with a lowercase J.Not, not a big J, not an uppercase J.

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Because I think that comes with... It's like a, a loaded term, right? Yeah. If you hear somebody's a journalist, you're like, "Okay, they probably went to school, they studied to do this.

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They are held up to this, like higher, I don't know, journalistic ethics code- Yes... that I am not trying to hold myself up to." I studied engineering in school.

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I served as an engineer, or worked as an engineer for almost 10 years for a pipeline company. Um, recently kinda switched over to kinda nonprofit philanthropy side of things.

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Um, but I- I've never wanted to be a journalist. I- Mm. I started posting pictures of my city, 'cause I like Wichita.

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[laughs] And it grew into this thing, because it just like, every time I like see something a little different, I'm like, "Okay, a podcast is kind of a cool branch to grow into."

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Like, we have like a, a job board now, or like an events calendar. Mm. And then the newsletter, like you said, just kinda stemmed organically.

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Like I was trying to promote my podcast, um, but I didn't wanna be like, "Go listen to my podcast." That's a boring email. Everyone's gonna- Yeah... no one's gonna wanna receive that.

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So I started like, okay, maybe if I put in like, okay, here's like two big news stories that happened. There's a big basketball tournament coming, or Taco Fest is next weekend.

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Um, and then that grew, once I figured out what an actual local newsletter was, grew into kind of a that's the product that I'm selling. Yeah. Um- Okay, wait.

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Well, we, we have to talk about the podcast for a second before we get- Yeah... to the newsletter, if the newsletter comes out of the podcast.

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So the podcast, also called Wichita Life, I think the first, uh, episode was published seven years ago. There are 113 episodes. What is this podcast, and how did this come to be after the Instagram?

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If the Instagram is just- Sure... I'm just gonna post pictures of cool stuff around Wichita, what is the podcast? Why did you do that? Sure.

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Uh, so from the doing the Instagram stuff, I kinda had a feeling, like I've always had like an entrepreneurial itch. What ha- which I think stems from like watching Iron Man- [laughs]... and like Social Network. Uh-huh.

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It was this like entrepreneurial, I don't know what it was. Um, probably Social Network more than anything. I think that was kinda like the hit movie like back in- Mm... like high school, college.

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Um, so it was like, oh, I could do that. But then in college I was always like trying to swing way too big. I'm like, I need like the best idea. You're trying to start Facebook. Exactly, exactly.

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[laughs] Um, which is funny, 'cause I heard, uh, Sean Purry on My First Million. His example was like, um, I, I was trying to go like date Jessica Alba off the bat.

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[laughs] But if Jessica Alba walked in the room, I wouldn't know what to do. Yeah. It's like if I had a Facebook idea, I wouldn't know what to do with that. Yeah. And so, um, you gotta start small.

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And so I, again, eventually I just started an Instagram account thinking like, okay, I kinda have this entrepreneurial itch. Maybe I can promote something.

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If this grows into an audience, maybe I can promote something off the back of this. But again- Mm... no plans. It wasn't a business plan or anything. Um- You had a full-time job, a, a, and you're an engineer- Right.

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Exactly... that pays well. Like it's not like- Exactly... you're like strapped to like make this happen to survive. Exactly right. Um, and I barely even used social media myself. That was the funniest part.

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My wife was like... I didn't even tell her about the Insta- about Wichita Life- [laughs]... until like we were at like 5,000 followers, and she saw me posting one day. And I was like, "I just have so many dumb ideas.

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I don't wanna like tell p- everybody about it- Burn, yeah... exactly, until like it's something. And so it became something, and she's been super supportive of it.

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Um, but from that it's like, I'm an engineer, so, or worked as an engineer. I had my headphones in six of the eight hours of the day listening to podcasts. I was like, "You know, I could, I could do that.

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Like I could do a podcast that's just having a conversation." I was really into like Tim Ferriss, How I Built This, Joe Rogan, like the conversational storytelling podcast.

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Um, and so the first one I did, uh, my brother had just come off of, uh, winning a national championship at Garden City JuCo. Mm. He was the quarterback out there.

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And he was about to go play, um, D1 football at Missouri State. And so it was like he was home for the holidays. I'm like, "Hey, let's just record a podcast. Let's talk about this a little bit.

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Um, and then see if I even like it, see if I can do it." Mm-hmm. Um, and back then, like it's super easy to make a podcast. It's super easy to make a newsletter now. It wasn't quite as easy back then. Um- Mm...

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so I was like duct-taping together a couple services, and like trying to make it work with WordPress and hosting and whatever.

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Um, but yeah, started just interviewing, um, authors, um, entrepreneurs, local ath- like athletes that have made it professional.

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Um, and it's been kind of like a creative outlet, which my wife, again, was always surprised.

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Like as an engineer, like I'm, I'm fairly outgoing for an engineer, but like that's not something an engineer does, is go start a podcast. Yeah. So it was like a, a way for me to kinda get the creative juices flowing.

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Um, and again, I, I knew I wanted to do something entrepreneurially. I'm not gonna be an inf- quit my job to be an influencer. I was like, okay, maybe a podcast.

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But then from that, I knew, found podcasts, and I'm sure you've seen are like very hard to grow, like inherently. It's just like, it's just hard.

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It's like word of mouth, and like you can promote it on social media, but it's hard to get somebody to like subscribe and download. It's a big ask, listen to this for an hour, you know? Yeah, exactly. Exactly.

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Um, and so then that's kind of where the newsletter stemmed out of. Like, okay, I can promote that, and then that evolved. And it's like a constant evolution of whatever I'm working on keeps growing into something else.

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So it's like if you ask me what I'm gonna be doing a year from now, there's probably some other layer or step that's built out of that newsletter. Yeah. Um, with... Did it, did it help grow the podcast?

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Or like did you pretty quickly realize like, oh, the, the, the newsletter is better served doing something else? Like did you actually accomplish your original goal with the newsletter? Uh, [laughs] not really.

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[laughs] I was, I mean, it's like barely sta- I mean, each episode gets a couple hundred downloads or whatever, and sometimes it's like... A lot of it, honestly, and I'm sure you've seen, is like it depends on the guest.

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Like if they have a following- Yeah... or if that topic is super interesting, that will take off. But it's just hard to kinda build up that base. Um- Mm...

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but something I did try, and I don't know if I've ever talked about this either. Um, that first summer, so I was only sending... Okay, this is COVID summer, so everything's different in the world.

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But, um, the first year of COVID, but I would send a weekly newsletter with this stuff. And then I was like, okay, I don't know, I do get guests on the podcast like once or twice a month.

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Um, but what if I just like made an audio version of the newsletter, and that's like the Wichita Weekly Update Podcast? So back then it was- Mm... the Wichita Weekly Update Newsletter, that podcast version.

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And I would literally like read it. Like it would, 'cause like I, I write the newsletter as if I'm telling a friend. Yeah. So like it was, didn't have to be very much different. Um, but I was able to just read that.

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And like I have friends that, I mean, even like a year ago, they would ask like, "Man, I kinda miss when you did that." Like it was kinda nice.

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They would listen to it on the way to work instead of reading the newsletter. Um- They're like, "I don't get on the phone with you enough, so-" Right. Exactly. [laughs] Yeah. Yeah, yeah. "I miss your voice."

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[laughs] Yeah. [laughs] Um, but, uh, so I think that there is something to that, and there are some companies that do that. Like, um, CityCast is one. Mm. It's in like Boise and St.

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Louis, and I don't know, 20 other cities. They got a few of them, yeah.Yeah. So there's something, there's something to that.

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Um, so that actually, when I was doing like a weekly, like every Tuesday that podcast came out, that started to grow a little bit, but it was like, I don't know, 120 people listening.

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It wasn't like it was thousands- Mm... or anything that I could monetize to a degree, um, to make it worth it. And so eventually I dropped that just because, again, back then podcasting wasn't incredibly easy.

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Um, it's still difficult today, but it wasn't like... It was even harder back then. I'm like, "This just isn't worth my time." Yeah.

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And my daughter had been born right before that, and it was just a lot, so I felt like- You don't wanna be an absentee podcaster. Exactly. [laughs] Yeah. Deadbeat podcaster.

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[laughs] Exa- That's, that's a, that's a new type of guy. Um, okay, let's, let's talk about the business side of this, uh, for a little bit. So last year I know that you broke six figures with it for the first time.

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When, w- when did you, when did you make your first dollar through Wichita Life? And then what year did you break, uh, four figures and then five figures to lead up to six figures? That is a great question.

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Um, the first year, again, was just the Instagram. Mm. So it was like, I don't know, not making a ton of money. I think the first check I got was for like three Instagram posts.

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It was like 75 bucks from like a local salon brands place. It was like called Salon Brands. Hey, we, we count those. Yeah. Hey, that was, that was- [laughs]... one of the best checks I've ever gotten, honestly- Yeah...

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'cause I'm just like, man, I can actually make money from... Like, this is a thing. Like, I didn't know this could actually be a thing. Um, and so I actually just pulled up a spreadsheet where I have it year by year.

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Um, but the first year, yeah, it was, uh, like a couple hundred bucks, I think, was like total. Like 150- Mm... 200 bucks. Um, and then there was a couple years, like a couple thousand bucks, like in...

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So that was like 2017, 2019 was like a couple thousand bucks. And then there was a few years where it was like doubling. I'm like, man, if I keep this up, it's gonna just parable- The ability there... but... Exactly.

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Um, but yeah, I would say, let's see, it went from, so 2024 was the first year we broke six figures. Um, 2023 was like 80,000. 2022 was like 57,000. And again, that's like before expenses and like investing- Mm. Yeah...

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everything else back in. But like top line, um, $119,814 last year and 98 cents. Damn. So that was, uh- That's amazing... yeah, that was...

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I was surprised 'cause that was the first year that I made more than my real job. Wow. But, um, which was a big deal. So again, eight years later, seven, eight years later, um, kinda got to that point.

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Are you, uh, are you on track to better that this year? Uh, yes. Yeah. I wouldn't say like blow it out of the water. Um, and some of that's just been like my career change.

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So I switched from being an engineer to- Yeah... philanthropy, uh, area, which wasn't like a tra- crazy salary change, um, but just like work, uh, I don't even know, work capacity. Like my new job is like- Yeah.

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Well, and you're just having to do different things, so it's, you're not like in the groove. Exactly. You have to think more maybe after. Exactly.

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So it was a little, so it was a little different just like switching careers. Um, but honestly, the new job has been way better for Wichita Life because I'm allowed to do stuff like during the day a lot more.

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Like I'm, my, my job is literally to work with nonprofits and see how we can help them- Yeah... and potentially write them a grant, but a lot of it's just working with nonprofits, connecting the, the dots.

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And I was doing that with Wichita Life, but now I get to be like, I get to paid to do that. And so it's been awesome to kinda meet new people and stuff.

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But, um, yeah, it's been, been cool to see like how it's like a steady growth and then it kinda slowly picks up speed. But yeah, we should beat 2024's numbers this year. [laughs] Knock on wood. Yeah.

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Uh, is that mostly advertising sponsorship revenue? Is there anything else? Um, so mostly sponsorship. Um, I'd say probably like 90, 95% sponsorship revenue.

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Um, which is, the way I break this down is like, I don't know, we have like newsletter-only revenue. We have like Instagram-only revenue.

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'Cause some people, like they see we have, I don't even know, 56,000, 55,000 followers on Instagram. They see that number, and they just wanna like promote stuff to there. Mm.

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But like some stuff is just really hard to promote on social media. Like- Yeah... the algorithm, like, okay, people aren't liking this. They're just gonna skip it and not show it to anyone.

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Um, some stuff's only newsletter, which is a lot easier to show. Um, and but a lot of our revenue, I would say like of that kind of 90% chunk, probably like 60% to 70% of that is like, I call it like a combo package.

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And so we'll be like, "Hey, you're gonna be in the newsletter twice this month." We send four times a week, so it's like every other week, um, and then once on the Instagram. So then we can- Well, so-...

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kind of like split up the audience and- Yeah. I imagine, um, I mean, by now everybody's, everybody knows about Instagram advertising. It's such a normal thing.

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I think newsletter advertising is still probably unfamiliar to a lot of people. Right. Yeah.

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Especially, I imagine, some local businesses that like aren't spending a ton of money on like internet advertising, it might be kind of a mystery to them.

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So probably you're having to do a good amount of education of like, "Hey, the newsletter's actually much more valuable for you. You're gonna get a much better ROI." Mm-hmm. You're having to do that education. I am, yeah.

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And it's, it's definitely difficult, but it's fun because, uh, like w- they work with us once or twice.

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And like some stuff, like in a perfect world, I have somebody that just signs like a year contract and just keeps renewing every year. Yeah.

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But a lot of them are like, "We have a, a few thousand dollars, and we have a six-week period leading up to an event or something- Mm... or a fundraiser or something. We wanna spend it with you."

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And so it's kind of me figuring out like, okay, how can I help you get the best bang for your buck? Is it three Instagram posts? Is it six newsletter po- what does that look like?

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Um, and so it's just trying to get creative, like what's gonna be best for them. But a lot of it's education. Um, a lot of times I'll just be like driving down the road, and I take notes of who's on the billboards.

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[laughs] 'Cause I'm like, "These people are just wasting their money." [laughs] And so I, it's like a, it's a dual-edged sword- That's funny...

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though, because I wanna like message them and say, "Hey, I saw on your billboard, but my newsletter's better." But then I'm like- But you saw that billboard... pointing out that I saw their billboard.

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[laughs] But so, so there's like that side of it, but then it's like I'm actively looking for that. If I was just driving- Yeah... not paying attention.

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But also like even if I see that, what, am I gonna scan a QR code while I'm driving? Like- Yeah... my newsletter can go straight to your landing page or multiple landing pages with a, with an ad.

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And so I do, it is a little bit of that education. But once they kind of see that a couple times, a lot of them just keep coming back, whether that's the same s- time every year or just continually, so. Mm-hmm.

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Have you, uh... What's the longest, uh, you've been working with any single advertiser? I'm trying to think. One of them's like my, my buddy, so I don't really count that one. [laughs] Got it.

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Uh, he's been with us- Hey, you know, that's, that's still money... he's been with us since the beginning. But, uh- Yeah. Nice... and that one is a little controversial too. I'll talk about that in a minute.

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But other than that, probably like two, three, three years. I mean, they're, a lot of them keep coming back, which is awesome. Mm-hmm.

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Um, but that one, so he runs a CBD company, and so early on he wanted me to promote like in the, on Instagram, and I was like, this is probably like 2019.

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I'm likeI wanna support you, but I can't do that More of a gray area. Like, it's more of a gray area, especially on Instagram, but just in general back then in 2019. Like, I feel like it's way more acceptable now.

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Like, it's like I'm... I don't know. Like, some of the logos have, like marijuana plants on them. You know what I mean? It's like I'm not gonna blast that in, like a family-friendly Instagram and stuff.

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[laughs] But, like, I've used-- Like, my grandpa uses CBD for his back. And, like, around the Fourth of July, we used CBD for my dog. So it's like- Mm-hmm... I, I put that type of stuff in.

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Like, this is stuff that we actually use. It's not just like we're not trying to get high off [chuckles] of this stuff. You know what I mean? Yeah. But, like, there's a weird gray area, but it's like- CB- Yeah...

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I mean, CBD, like Instagram advertising, is now more normalized. [laughs] Exactly. That's a great point. Yeah. Everything's evolving. Yeah. Everything's evolving. Exactly. Exactly.

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Um, okay, talk about the audience for a little bit. Um, Wichita Life, I think it goes out to 31,000 people right now, the newsletter. Instagram's nearly 60K.

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I think you've said that the total social following is right around 120K right now. Uh, population numbers, the city is 400K about. Metro area, 650K.

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Um, so j- newsletter alone, 31,000 people, that's no small chunk, right? Um, that's decent saturation for only doing it for about half a decade.

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Uh, do you think that there's a cap on your audience size for the newsletter where, like, you could get to 100,000, 300,000, but not further? Is there a cap, and do you think about that? Um, I haven't really.

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I've thought about it a little bit just, uh, and, like, I've given a couple, like, local talks at, like One Million Cups- Mm... and, like some entrepreneur stuff.

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And, like, I always kinda pitch it as, like, okay, we are, like back then, let's call it, let's, we're 31,000. Again, you said 400,000. But, like we target, like we write, it's called the Wichita Life Update.

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But, like- Yeah... we cover everything, all the suburbs. So it's about 650,000. I'm like, we're not even 10% of the way there. So I, I'm not really worried about the cap right now, um, as like a limiting factor.

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If anything, it's just like we have a long way to go. Like- Yeah... I, I'm probably not gonna read that, reach that limiting factor for a while. Um, but I mean, I don't see why 100,000 people wouldn't read it.

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You know what I mean? And so, um, like the Wichita Eagle is, like the legacy paper here that's been here for- Yes... 100 years or whatever.

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Um, I'm pretty sure we already have as, uh, like more email subscribers than they do. So I always put that on things when I'm, uh, promoting it. Um, but like, they send out, I don't know,

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50, 60, 70,000 papers a day, whatever the number, probably more than 100,000. Yeah. I don't know what it is. But it's more than we are. And so it's like, let's call it 100, maybe it's 150,000. But, um, I don't know.

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I, I always just try to picture things as we have 31,000, about 16,000 or 17,000 people read every email. Yeah.

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Our, uh, event center here in town, s- the record attendance there, which was a Zach Bryan concert a couple years ago, was like 16,500. I'm like, "That many people read each of my emails." That's huge.

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And that's how I always try to reframe it. I'm like, we got a long ways to go, but, like that is a ton of people. And there's, that's one way to look at it.

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And then it's like, you really realize how many people are, uh, are reading it when you make a grammatical error, [laughs] and it's very obvious because they let you know. Yeah.

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If it's like a dozen people, I'm like, "Oh, there it is. I, I definitely had something that was a dumb typo or something." Well, who, who are the people reading it? Do you know, like vague or...

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I mean, you don't have to tell me everything specific, but just- Yeah... kind of broad demographic data. Sure. Like, is it more male, more female, age range, et cetera? Mm-hmm. Who, who reads it? Yeah.

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So both the Instagram and email are, are about two-thirds female- Mm-hmm... which I've always thought was interesting. And maybe, I don't know if that's, like normal.

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Uh, wa- as a side, Ryan Sneddon, who I know you know- Yeah... a former Career Spotlight guest- Yeah... uh, one of the kind of the pioneers of the local newsletter thing, he said a similar thing.

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His was like, uh, his was like two-thirds female, I think, as well. Right. So two-thirds female. Um, but the drastic difference is like, I don't know, I don't know which way I'm looking on the, on the screen.

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But, uh, on Instagram, it's like 25 to 34- Yeah... is like the majority bucket, which you'd kind of expect Instagram, social media. Um, but for the newsletter, it's like 55 to 64, and 65 plus is like 40, 45%. Wow.

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And then it's kind of even across the other buckets. Um, and I think a big piece of that is because a lot of our newsletter subscribers were acquired via Facebook, which- Mm... I think also trends older, right? Yeah.

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Um, or my other working theory for that is that, um, I just do like a, I don't do an onboarding survey, which I've heard some people in the, um, community, like local newsletter community kinda do.

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But, like once or twice a year, I'll just send a survey and get whatever, low thousands, whatever that is, some statistically significant number, percentage of, um, subscribers.

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And my other theory is, are older people just more likely to actually respond to the survey? [laughs] Just like time of getting you the newsletter, yeah. I, I exactly. I think it's like it does trend that.

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I think it's, it is more older people, but I think it might be like amplified a little bit based on, like a older lady might be more willing to s- do a survey than a 25-year-old guy or something, so.

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I, I think you're probably right.

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I mean, I've had a similar thing with, with age in the newsletter as well, where, like we were, when we started running meta ads, we saw that we were getting a much higher proportion of, of older people.

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So we had to, like occasionally set limits on some of the ads- Yeah... where it's like we wanted a more balanced audience- Yeah... um, so we actually had to set that up.

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Uh, let's talk about the growth of the newsletter for a little bit, though. You, you mentioned meta ads. Um, I think you started doing that a little more recently. How...

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I guess, like take me from, like the-- I imagine that the first zero to 1,000 was that hand-to-hand combat we were talking about. Um, now you're at 31,000. Tell me, like the story of the growth maybe in a few milestones.

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So, like from the 1,000 to 10,000, maybe 10 to 20, 20 to now. Sure. Um, I don't have the numbers exactly in front of me. I would say... I mean, I started running Facebook ads. So I started in June of 2020.

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Oh, I didn't realize- And then-... you started that long ago. Yeah. So I started, actually, I, I never said it to Ryan, but I actually started before Ryan did, so, uh- Oh.

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[laughs] We're, we're both kinda OGs in the newsletter space. But, uh, he... It, it is funny. Think about that, though, 'cause, uh, being in the newsletter was funny- He's just louder about it.

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He was a lot louder about it. Yeah. But, uh, I met him because he was loud about it, so it worked out. So he helped me out a ton early on. Like, it was just, like how to think about it, frameworks.

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Like, I even, some of my, like templatization of things was kinda copied off of him. Um, but he's the one that showed me how to use Facebook ads initially. Yeah.

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And so I, I ran, but it was like 10 or $20 a day for a little bit, and then, like, I would kinda grow and then, likeNot run out of money, but, like, I didn't want to run out of money, so I'd kind of tone- Yeah...

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it back a little bit or turn it off for a little bit. Or, um, something I've done before too is, like, I ran the same Facebook ad for two or three years. Like, again- Like one single unit?... not a ton of money.

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Like, the single ad, like- Wow... there's been a couple of them that I've just ran, like, the, in forever.

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And then eventually it got to a point I'm like, "Okay, it's like a, $1.50 a sub," which isn't even bad, like, in the big picture of things, but, like, was just more expensive than the 90 cents that I wanted to be spending per subscriber.

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Um, but, uh, so I just let that run. But I would say it tails off sometimes 'cause

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I, I s- I'm kind of hard on myself, so I'll say, like, I'm being lazy and I'm not, like, swapping out the creatives, but it's more like- You don't strike me as a lazy guy [laughs]... I, I don't have time. Yeah.

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So it's just, like, like, recently, like, I kind of tapered off the Facebook ads a little bit 'cause I had been running an ad for months and I'm like, "I need to swap this out," but I just haven't had time to do it, but I also don't wanna, like, burn money, but I also don't want subscribers to stop coming in, so it's like I just need to, like, set aside an hour once a week to go, like, swap in some new creatives.

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But- Yeah... um, I would say it was probably, like, I don't know. If you break it out, it's probably, like, 500 subscribers a month or something. Um, I don't know. Roughly- Pretty good...

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if you, like, linearly, um, something like that, which some months it's, like, 2,000 'cause I really cranked it up that month or something like that. Um, but, like, I started this year...

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It's kind of hard 'cause I used to have it on Kit, and so- Oh, yeah... it was, like, a nice, a nice graph, but I switched it over and then- Yeah, it's like... Yeah...

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I had to, I had to scrape off my Kit subscribers because they were wanting to charge me again. [laughs] So I had to get below their threshold so I didn't have to pay for it anymore. That's crazy.

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Okay, so I started January 1st at 23,000, and we're- Yeah... almost, we're about to cross 32. So- That's a lot... almost 10,000 subscribers in six or seven months, so. 30-year growth in half a year.

238
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A third of your- Yeah. Yeah... I mean, a third of your entire- Yeah... current audience rather. Yeah, yeah. Yeah. Yep, exactly. Yep.

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And I would say this year I definitely, like, cranked it up a little bit compared to past years, um, but a lot of that was just based on, like, we had a good year of revenue last year. Yeah.

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Um, and I just wanna, like, keep that growth up. Um, so a lot of the stuff, I think I picked this up from Austin Rief- Mm-hmm... um, from Morning Brew.

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I heard him say, maybe it was on MFM or, like, one of the other podcasts he was on, um, but he had a framework, and I think a lot of people have kinda latched onto it and maybe he didn't come up with it, but write, grow, sell.

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Yes. Yeah. So it's like, okay, you can kinda sum up everything into that. So it's, like, write or, like, if you wanna, like, bundle that down, it's, like, creating content or whatever else.

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I've, I've, I've modeled my entire definition of what is a creator on this. What, Matt McGarry- Oh... was the one who told me about it. Exactly. But he created it. Yes. I was gonna say Matt McGarry. Yeah.

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I think his, like, s- course is called that or his- It is, yeah... newsletter or something. Um, but the writing, it's like I always n- like, I'm not gonna miss sending it out.

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I send it Monday, Wednesday, Thursday, Friday, which is kind of a weird- Mm-hmm... cadence. I don't think anyone else does it like that.

246
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Um, but it's going out at 6:00 AM that, those days no matter what, unless it's a holiday or, like, I let them know ahead of time. So, like, that piece is, like, checked.

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Like, if I have to stay up till 2:00 AM- That's the whole-... it's gonna get done... foundation. Exactly. Exactly. So it's write and then grow. It's like, okay, I need to continue to grow the newsletter.

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I can't be stagnant. Like, people do unsubscribe every newsletter. Like- Yeah... a dozen people might unsubscribe each newsletter- This is just another-... or every other newsletter... the, the cost of doing business.

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And that's the name of the game. Yeah. And, like, I used, I used to go and, like, look at every single one of them. [laughs] Be like, "Who is this person?"

250
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Like, why did you un- That's just like, that's like scratching an itch after you get a bug bite. [laughs] You don't need to do it. [laughs] Exactly. [laughs] Um, exactly.

251
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And a lot of time it's like, "Oh, I, I left my job, so I was just switching. I'm actually subscribed now to another email."

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Or, like, they're, they always had a reason, like, if I ever, like, met them in person and I knew them personally or something.

253
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Um, but then so there's that piece of it, and it's like, that's pretty easy to slack on though. Like, you have to, like, put some effort in, whether that's organic content, hand-to-hand combat, or paying meta ads.

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And then selling is, like, the other piece of it. Like, you gotta monetize it or the whole engine is gonna- Yeah... shut down. So. Hey, if you're enjoying this conversation, consider subscribing to the podcast.

255
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We release a new episode every Tuesday. All right, back to the show. [whooshing sound] Uh, talk, talk to me a bit about the, like, the early paid growth.

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I think that paid advertising as a newsletter growth, uh, strategy is obviously really reliable. You put money in, subscriber comes out, basically.

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But I think it's probably pretty intimidating to people who haven't done that, who maybe don't have digital marketing experience. Um, but I think there's one of the...

258
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Or to dispel a myth, it's like you can start to grow with, like, 10 bucks a day or- Oh, yeah... 10 bucks a week even. Yeah. Yeah. You need to have, like, a minimum, and 10 bucks a day isn't that cheap really.

259
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Like, if you- Right... for a lot of people, if you think about it. 30 bucks a month, yeah. That's a lot. Exactly. Yeah.

260
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But, um, yeah, tell me about, like, getting over that hump and being like, "Okay, I'm gonna, I'm gonna start doing it." Was it like...

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Was it pretty easy once you just started doing it, or how did you figure out how to do the paid ads? It's, it's not that bad.

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I mean, again, part of it was, like, Ryan showing, Ryan Steden showing me how to do it at first, 'cause I, like, I literally had no clue. Like, I was...

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I had been writing for six weeks, but it was like, I think I was still going just once a week, maybe twice a week at that point. You were only six weeks in when you started doing that? Uh, six months. Six months in.

264
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Oh, six months. Okay, yeah, yeah. Yeah. No, you're good. Yeah, so I wrote and it started in June. I probably didn't start till, like, December or January of- Mm-hmm... 20- 2021. Um, started doing Facebook ads.

265
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Um, but, like, there's so many, like, courses or free YouTube videos now that show how to do everything. There probably was- Yeah... back then too. It's saturated.

266
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Um, or, like, the other thing, and again, I've mentioned it a couple times, but the Newsletter Club has been super cool because there's, I don't even know, 100, 150 pe- I don't even know how many people are in the group now.

267
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It's crazy. Yeah. Like, I go to... I don't use Discord for anything but that group, and there's always, like, 29 people online. Like, no matter what- Wow...

268
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there's always at least 29, 30 people online, which is nuts, 'cause it, it's all over the world.

269
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Um, but there's some people in there that are, like, just, like, wizards at Facebook ads, and so they'll put together, like, a masterclass to show.

270
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And so that's why I kind of ramped it up this year, 'cause I'm like, "Oh, I made this way more efficient." Like, I've been kind of burning money.

271
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Like, for better or worse, I've m- optimized it a lot more, so I can get more bang for my buck now. Mm-hmm. Um, but for people that are just starting out, I mean, again, you don't have to spend a ton of money.

272
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You can spend, let's call it $4 a day, and then go send a bunch of DMs. Like, if you don't have time, then maybe, I don't know, maybe this isn't the right time to do stuff.

273
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But you can kind of scale these local newsletters down to whatever you want them to be. Like, again- Yeah... I send four times a week. Ryan sends them five times a week. Michael Kaufman's crushing it.

274
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He sends it one time a week. Uh, you could send one time a week and just kind of be a brief summary. I've seen other people, um-I think it's Gunner Holm. He- I've seen him on Twitter.

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He- I think he's from, like, the Netherlands or somewhere, but he wr- he started a local newsletter in New York that's literally just, like, the top five events for the weekend. Yeah.

276
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And then he, using his Facebook ma- Meta Ads expertise, he scaled that up and has, like, 10,000 subscribers or whatever. Mm-hmm. So it's like you can kind of do it as, as big or as little as you want. Like, it...

277
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I, I wouldn't try... I wouldn't be intimidated by it, I guess. I'd just try to get started. Yeah. Uh, I wanna talk to you more about the Newsletter Club. I obviously learned about this- Yeah...

278
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when I interviewed Michael back in, I think, November, that was. Um, he had started it a few months earlier.

279
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Like you said, now it's like maybe up to 150, and it's a bunch of these people who are doing these local newsletter businesses, as you were just, as you were just describing.

280
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Um, tell me what this community has meant to you in terms of, like, what it's changed for you.

281
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Is there any, like, succ- like, specific success you've had by dint of being in this community that you wouldn't have had otherwise? Sure. Um, number one, I wouldn't be on this podcast if I- [laughs]...

282
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wasn't a member of the Newsletter Club. [laughs] That's true. Michael introduced us. Yeah. [laughs] He introduced us. So that's number one. Um, so I was a guest on one of the best creator podcasts in the- Oh, come on...

283
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in the nation, in the world. Um, but, uh, so I was first told about it. I met with a guy on Twitter named, uh, Jas, Jas Singh. Mm-hmm. Yes. Um, he is up in Winnipeg. Toronto, right? Winni- I went to- Uh, Winnipeg Digest.

284
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Yeah. Getting my Canadas wrong. I know. I'm, I'm an American. I'm, I'm in the Midwest. I don't know my Canadian, uh, provinces or states or whatever they have up there. [laughs] But Jas, yeah.

285
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Um, but so he, he's crushing it up there. He's growing really fast. Um, but he had... We had done a couple phone calls just off of Twitter. It's kinda fun who you can meet and just chat with. Mm-hmm.

286
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Um, and again, that's how, like, Ryan and I met. Um, but through that he's like, "You should join this Newsletter Club thing," and he's like, "It's like 100 bucks," whatever.

287
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And so then by the time I, like, finally came around to joining it, he's like, "Oh, the price is 200 bucks now," or whatever. I'm like... I, I appreciate that, though, because I was like, I'm so cheap.

288
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I, I do not wanna- Yeah... pay to join. Like, I don't wanna pay to take a course. I don't wanna, like, pay to join, like, a club. But it has been, like, invaluable.

289
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Like, it's the best whatever 200 bucks I've spent because, one, just based off the Facebook ads, like, the, the insights I got from that has saved me thousands of dollars probably.

290
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Um, but just, like, trading ideas and, like, what's working, what's not working, what's... Uh, I'm having this issue on Beehiiv, should I switch to Beehiiv, right? Yeah. So I was on ConvertKit.

291
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I was like, everybody else in the club was on Beehiiv except for me, basically, back then. Um, so it was like, that kinda convinced me. But, um, it's just been really cool.

292
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Like, a lot of people that are going through the same thing. There's some people that are, like Michael, that are, like, crushing it with, like, monopoly boards and super cool stuff.

293
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Um, there's some people that are sending daily newsletters.

294
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There's some people that are, like, literally trying to get off the ground, and they're ner- they're sharing, like, that they're nervous to get started, um, and send the first one.

295
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Um, but I think it's good to, like, hear feedback from other people that have been through that or have been doing it for, like... Again, I am not an expert by any means. I am just trying to make things work.

296
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But, like, being able to share what I've learned through the years and, like, hopefully help them at least take that first step. Yeah. It's funny you say you're not expert. You're, you're a very humble guy.

297
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I r- I really appreciate that about you. Like, y- y- you saying, like, "Oh, you know, I, I was doing that before Ryan," uh, you really... [laughs] I, I really app- I just wanna say, I really appreciate that about you.

298
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Thank you. [laughs] But it... Yeah, it's, it's true, though, 'cause, like... And I think the beauty of, um, and I think there are a few people that aren't doing local newsletters in that group- Yeah. Mm-hmm...

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which is just kinda fun to get a, a more mix. But the thing that stands out the most is, like, there's no one way to do this. Yeah. Like, every one of us does it differently. Um, but we can learn from each other.

300
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There's some guys that are monetizing really well through, like, not a paid...

301
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Like, not paid content, but, like, a paid support group, and, like, I have that to a very small scale, um, but not to the extent as some of them do.

302
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I'm like, okay, that's something, like, I need to put on kind of my next to-do list. Like, there are a lot of people that wanna support Wichita Life, and, like, we host, uh, annual events. That's...

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Which is another kinda monetization, um, path that we have. Don't make a ton of money off of them, but, like, it, it gets people in person, um, which I think, again, just kinda builds the brand, um, and whatnot.

304
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But, uh, it's just cool to see how many different ways there are to slice and dice it, um, and th- there really is no one way to do these newsletters. Yeah. So, uh, if you'll let me ramble for a second. Yeah.

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I think one thing I've noticed talking to, talking to you, talking to Michael, talking to Ryan, um, like you and Ryan both have this engineering background.

306
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Uh, and then Michael is more of, like, this, this kind of startup guy. Um, I... Maybe you've read this Creator Spotlight issue I wrote a couple months ago, this idea that creators are just...

307
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It's just another word for a certain type of digital entrepreneur, and there's kind of like- Mm-hmm... a spectrum of, like, business person to artist, creator, entrepreneur right in the middle.

308
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Um, and I think that the people who are most successful in the creator economy tend to be the ones who are more, more entrepreneurial because it's about building these systems, scalable systems, building, like, you know, like figuring out what's the monetization strategy.

309
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How are we doing meta ads? These are all more kind of entrepreneurial things rather than- Mm-hmm... like, the, the more traditional arts creative side. Yeah.

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Um, I had this conversation, uh, it, it was this week's newsletter actually, as we record this, this week's newsletter and podcast, with this woman, Liz Kelly Nelson, uh, former VP of Revenue and Ops at Vox, and now she runs Project CE, which helps, uh, journalists, like, go independent and monetize.

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And she's interviewed Michael as well, and we were talking about this, how it's like there's these sort of two different worlds of, like, journalists trying to go independent and then, like, local newsletter people- Mm-hmm...

312
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like, like you, uh, Michael, Ryan. And, like, for, for you, you don't really need to do, like, this traditional journalism. It, it would, it would be... It actually would cut into your bottom line.

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You wouldn't make any, any money. Like, you would have to be doing it, or you have to be hiring somebody to go out and do it, and, like, uh, not that you need to.

314
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I mean, traditionally, journalism has been supported by, like, the classified section, like event lists- Yeah... people paying for event listings, whatever. And so you do that side, and you don't need to do- Mm-hmm...

315
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the journalism. Um, I don't know, though. It's, it's, it's really...

316
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It's interesting to me because I, I would like for there to be a way for, like, more journalist-type people who do, like, really good reporting to work with, with people like you.

317
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Um, but it's just like the, the market doesn't really incentivize it. Uh, so I think- Right... it's really interesting. So earlier you said, like, you know, you're not a journalist, capital J, lowercase J journalism.

318
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Um, but I am curious just what you think about this sort of, like, creator economy difference between the more, like, uh, entrepreneurial business builders versus the people for whom maybe the, um, like, the content itself is, is more the-...

319
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is, is more the end, rather than the means to the end of building the business. Yeah. That's, that's super interesting. Um, I mean, I think m- when you first mentioned that, and I listened to a little of that one.

320
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I haven't finished that podcast yet. Yeah.

321
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But I think it's like, it reminds me of, like, s- when Substack first came out, or, like, has, has grown, and it's like, I don't know, you used to write for, like, The Wall Street Journal, and now they wanna go independent, and so that's, like, their way to get paid while they're doing it.

322
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Yeah. Um, I don't know. I think it is super important.

323
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'Cause, like, again, a lot of the stuff that I do, like, our Monday, Friday emails are, like, local news and events, but it's like I'm going to the, the 10, 20, whatever local news sources here in town and aggregating the top, whatever, five or 10 things, leaving out crime and politics.

324
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Don't wanna touch those. Like- Yeah... no. It's not fun. I, the news That's what people come to you for. Exactly. Exactly. Yeah.

325
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It's like they come to me because it's, like, positive news about Wichita written in, like, my voice. So it's like, it's like their friend literally telling them the news.

326
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And, like, I, I've mentioned to my wife before, like, five years from now, do I still wanna re- be writing the emails? It's like, maybe. And she's like, "But you kinda have to, because it's in my...

327
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People are coming to read it from me." And I'm like, "I get that." Yeah. And it's like, there's probably some middle ground there.

328
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Um, but I think the, the journalism part is important because, uh, so that's our Monday, Friday ones.

329
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Um, on Thursdays we do, like, a, a vent rundown, which is, uh, kind of modeled off of some of your guests as well, so another pro through podcast. Um, but I, uh...

330
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The first time I thought about doing that was, um, uh, Kate from Cheapskate London. Mm. Yeah.

331
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So the way she kinda does it, and so I copied that a little bit, plus a little bit of what, um, Marissa, I don't know, her, her maiden name is Lavelle, who runs From Boise. Mm-hmm. She does a similar deal.

332
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Um, but I copied, uh, that idea from them. And then Wednesdays, though, are what I call it's a deep dive. And so that's a little bit closer to, like, what a normal, I don't know, journalist does. Um- Yeah...

333
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and so some of them are just, like, uh, like we have, like, festivals in town, like a river festival. Um, I'll just kinda give a rundown of what that means for the weekend, like, what to expect.

334
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Um, but sometimes I'll go dive in, like, um... I don't think I have one close and handy, but, like, the Wichita flag logo looks a lot like the New Mexico flag lov- logo. And so, like, people...

335
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There were some articles, like, did the Wich... back in the day, did Wichita- Our producer will put that on screen. [laughs] Exactly. [laughs] Did the, uh... I, I have a blog on it.

336
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Um, did the, did Wichita steal the flag from New Mexico back in the '30s or whatever? And so I wrote, I wrote kind of a tongue in cheek piece about, like, did we steal it? Yeah.

337
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And so it was, like, more in depth or, like, I'll, I'll do some- But it's culture, it's culture reporting. Yeah. Exactly. And so it's a little bit closer rather than just aggregating and kinda adding some sarcasm.

338
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So, but I think there is a place for that, and maybe that's, like, what, what does that look like for Wichita Life? Maybe it's, like, do I find a ex-Wichita Eagle journalist that maybe wants to go more independent?

339
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And, like, maybe we send out a paid piece once a week. I... You know what I mean? Or something along those lines. Yeah. Like, partner up. Like, I already have the audience. How can we help them be independent?

340
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Or just anybody... I mean, again, anybody can write a newsletter these days. Like, there's so many platforms with Kit and Beehiiv and Substack and whatever else. I, I think it is important, though. Yeah.

341
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And, and I think that's something that we need to lean into more. No, I mean, it's one of those things that's just sort of, like, still in the mix and, and, like, undefined.

342
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And I think, like, like, somebody like you, like, you really are kinda paving the way for what, like, a, a, you know, an, a publication that sustains itself and, like, can pay the people who work on it.

343
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Like, you're modeling that. Mm-hmm. Um, and I mean, as, as it grows, I'm sure the different things you're doing are gonna grow. I do wanna talk about your relationship with traditional journalism a little bit. Mm-hmm.

344
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You've told me a little bit about this, and then I've also heard you talk about it on other podcasts. You said that there's even been, like, uh...

345
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Well, one, actually, first off, you have a friend named Eddie who runs another local- Yeah... outlet called Wichita EB.

346
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And from what I understand, you two are sort of this new guard of, of media, and he does more, like, food, um, type of stuff, maybe culture stuff. You can tell me a bit about that.

347
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Uh, but then there's The Wichita Eagle, uh, which you said had been around for about 100 years. Not locally owned, though, so this is another... It's a, probably a story about private equity- [laughs]...

348
00:46:40.920 --> 00:46:45.840
and, you know, that's- Mm-hmm... a whole nother angle of media. Yeah, yeah. Um, I'm, I'm [laughs] saying a lot of things here, though.

349
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So what I wanna, the question I wanna pose to you, uh, is tell me about your sort of, like, old guard versus new guard relationship- Mm-hmm... with some, with Wichita Eagle and these other publications. Sure.

350
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Um, so from the top, so Eddie, Wichita by EB. Yeah. Um, EB are his initials. Um, he was actually one of the very few people that was doing s- anything social media before I was in town.

351
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And so he's a lifelong Wichitan as well. Um, and so he started, I think, like... I started eight years ago. He started, like, 13 or 14 years ago. And so it's- I saw... Well, I, I was looking at his website and his blog.

352
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2011. He started 2011. Yeah. It's, it's crazy. Yeah. So he's, he's a real OG for those OGs. Um, but, uh, he... It's been fun to see because we kinda complement.

353
00:47:27.580 --> 00:47:35.980
He's probably got a bigger audience overall just 'cause his Facebook is so big. Mm. It's, like, 80-something thousand, 85 maybe right now, followers. Um, but we've been kinda complementary.

354
00:47:36.020 --> 00:47:45.360
Like, I'm a little bit bigger on Instagram. He's a little bit bigger on Facebook. I'm a little bigger on email, et cetera. Um, and so a lot of people would ask, like, "Is he, like, your competition?" Mm.

355
00:47:45.500 --> 00:47:54.200
And hon- We're, we're friends. I literally text him every day. Um, but, uh, we've just gotten each, to know each other through this stuff, which, again, is just another perk, like, of doing something like this.

356
00:47:54.280 --> 00:48:04.160
You get to meet so many people, and it's really fun. Um, but he's just a, a good dude. We're kind of in, like, a similar spot, where it's like we both do this on the side. We both do it for the love of our city.

357
00:48:04.200 --> 00:48:09.690
It's like, do we make money from it? Yes. But we're also doing it... Like, if we didn't, if I didn't love Wichita, I wouldn't do this. Like- Yeah...

358
00:48:09.740 --> 00:48:16.980
I was doing it for free to little money for a long, long time, and s- as was he. Um, and so it's been fun to kinda work together on stuff.

359
00:48:17.000 --> 00:48:25.900
And so, uh, a piece of that is, uh, like, with, I mentioned this River Festival, just 'cause it's, like, the biggest thing in town. It's, like, nine days. Like, Flo Rida came this year. It was a lot of fun.

360
00:48:26.360 --> 00:48:35.640
Um, but, like, we each have our own audiences. Um, but, like, together, how can we help promote this? Like, a lot of people say it's, like, not cool or not safe or not what it used to be, whatever.

361
00:48:35.720 --> 00:48:45.900
Um, but, like, I think a lot of those people just haven't been for a while. Yeah. And it hasn't ever been, like, publicized well. And so we're like, we have the two largest, like, independent media companies in town.

362
00:48:46.160 --> 00:48:55.660
How can we partner up? Uh, brought in a videographer friend of mine, Jacob, who runs Managed to Create. Um, the three of us, how can we promote River Fest and, like, show how great it can be?

363
00:48:55.700 --> 00:49:05.056
And so we had so many people like, "Wow, that's amazing." Um, but the coolest piece of that was, like, again, we have these large audiences, but, like-I, I'm a white guy who grew up in the suburbs of Wichita.

364
00:49:05.176 --> 00:49:13.016
I don't reach the Hispanic or the Asian- Yeah... or these other populations. How can we s- help bring some of those other smaller creators in, and help, like, bring them up?

365
00:49:13.096 --> 00:49:19.516
So, like, on Instagram you can collaborate, so, like, they would invite us and the River Fest page to collaborate while they're creating Spanish-speaking content. Mm-hmm.

366
00:49:19.726 --> 00:49:27.586
Um, and so we were able to, like, elevate some of these smaller, uh, creatives through what we call the Kansas Media Collective, which was just a website that we threw up the day before.

367
00:49:27.656 --> 00:49:40.736
Um, but it was cool 'cause we worked with, like, a dozen creators that were smaller, and helped them get a platform. Um, but to tie that back into legacy media, um, back in, um... Oh, was it April of last year?

368
00:49:40.796 --> 00:49:51.576
So just a year, almost a year and a half ago- Mm-hmm... um, we... I- we, I say we. Wichita Life is m- my wife and I, but a lot of it's... Uh, my wife helps with social media and shoots down my bad ideas.

369
00:49:51.656 --> 00:49:56.416
Those are her primary contributions. [laughs] God help you. [laughs] Which is very helpful, actually. Yeah. [laughs] Uh, it's very helpful, actually.

370
00:49:56.916 --> 00:50:08.266
Um, but I went out and, um, I made, like, a short form video, so like a TikTok reel of, uh... I went to go test to see if the city's service to fix potholes works as they say it does.

371
00:50:08.296 --> 00:50:18.376
So they say they'll fix a pothole within 25 hour- 24 hours of being reported, and so it was like, almost like an investigative journalism piece, like will this work? Yeah. Um, and so I went, I recorded, like...

372
00:50:18.436 --> 00:50:25.436
I showed, like, the intersection, I showed the pothole, I showed my Apple Watch, like, as a timestamp, and then it happened to be by, like...

373
00:50:25.546 --> 00:50:33.026
In this, like, kind of historic neighborhood in town, there's, like, this random red piano, right, in this front yard. So it's, like, a classic thing. And so when I was driving around... Exactly. Yeah.

374
00:50:33.026 --> 00:50:38.196
So, like, if you... You're like, you know you're in College Hill- Yeah... like, if you drive by this piano. So I showed that, and that's why I picked that spot.

375
00:50:38.316 --> 00:50:45.676
Like, there's a lot of potholes in Wichita, but, like, I picked that spot specifically because, like, people will recognize where this is at and they can go look at it. Mm-hmm. So anyways, that went viral.

376
00:50:45.886 --> 00:50:51.556
Like, I think it's at, like, three million views on TikTok, a couple, maybe a million on YouTube- Yeah... hundreds of thousands on Instagram.

377
00:50:52.096 --> 00:50:59.796
Um, so it was super cool, and, like, so many comments of people from all over like, "Man, I wish my government worked this fast," blah, blah, blah. [laughs] I'm like, "Okay, that's cool. Whatever."

378
00:51:00.216 --> 00:51:05.756
Um, but the news invited me out. I don't... There's, like, a couple of main news channels here. They invited me out. This was probably, like, a Wednesday.

379
00:51:06.476 --> 00:51:13.296
Invited me out Sunday morning to do, like, a quick little blurb that'll be on the nighttime news. I was like, "Oh, sure. That's awesome." Like, I'll be on the news.

380
00:51:13.336 --> 00:51:19.706
Like, the fir- the first time we were on the news was KSN. Like, for the first two years we didn't show our face on our Instagram at all. Mm-hmm.

381
00:51:19.776 --> 00:51:27.656
And then one day we, like, made a reveal of who we were, and it went, like, mini viral. And so the news had us on then as, like, a fluff piece, which was super cool. We were appreciative of it.

382
00:51:28.076 --> 00:51:35.456
Um, so this was, like, my second big news piece. Um, and so they have me out, and they're like, "So, like, this is awesome. Like, what made you think to do this?" I'm like, "I literally just wanted to see if it worked."

383
00:51:35.496 --> 00:51:42.696
Like- [laughs]... it did. I didn't call them ahead of time, like, do an Insta- Just kinda doing my thing. Yeah. Exactly. And so then it came out. He's like, "So, like, do you work with the city?"

384
00:51:42.716 --> 00:51:51.536
And I was like, "I do work with, like, the City of Wichita government." He's like, "Um, so you... Like, is this a paid post?" And I was like, "This isn't a paid..." Like, they paid us to do a couple- Mm...

385
00:51:51.616 --> 00:52:01.156
posts a month, and a couple, like, email spots a month. But, like, they didn't pay for this specific post. They weren't like, "Landon, go check the pothole system and see if it works, and tell us whatever."

386
00:52:01.176 --> 00:52:10.216
It was all independently done. They didn't even see the video till it was at a million views on TikTok. Wow. And so anyways, instead of the nighttime news saying, "Local guy..."

387
00:52:10.276 --> 00:52:20.756
Like, a cool story, like, "Local guy goes viral," it was, "Influencers paid by the local government propaganda," or something like that. And I was just like- This is really interesting. "Oh.

388
00:52:20.856 --> 00:52:30.756
Oh, I see this game we're playing." Like, and so I've seen that guy around town that did that a couple times. He's new to Wichita. I'm like, "What? What's wrong with you?" Like, it wa- this could be a good thing.

389
00:52:30.876 --> 00:52:38.686
Like, I don't view you guys... Like, if anyone is my competition, it's Legacy Media. But, like, there's enough room for everybody. Like, I'm not trying to, like, put you out of business. Yeah.

390
00:52:38.716 --> 00:52:47.276
And so it's like, why are you doing that to, like, degrade, uh, what we're doing and what we're trying to do? Like, I get to him it was probably like, "Oh, yes, this is, like, a juicy, like, breaking story." I'm like,

391
00:52:48.256 --> 00:52:52.596
"You asked me and I told you. I didn't lie. I didn't even try to hide it." Like, it wasn't like it was a hidden thing.

392
00:52:53.136 --> 00:53:03.886
And so, uh, anyways, they, like, pulled, like, the public records of everything, 'cause, like, if any, whatever, government email or... Unless it's, like, whatever, classified- Some Freedom of Information Act stuff.

393
00:53:03.996 --> 00:53:11.736
Exactly, yeah. Yeah. So, like, they requested these emails, and, like, they, whatever, read through them all, whatever, saw that we made 1,000 bucks a month from this deal.

394
00:53:11.776 --> 00:53:17.156
I'm like, "Okay, first of all, that's pretty cheap for our services [laughs] so you should be paying us a lot more than that." Yeah.

395
00:53:17.186 --> 00:53:22.606
[laughs] Um, but, uh, it was funny 'cause that was, like, the five o'clock news, and then they did, like, a follow-up for, like, the 10 o'clock news.

396
00:53:22.656 --> 00:53:29.836
So they went out and, like, asked people on the street what they thought, and every one of the people that they talked to was like, "Seems like a pretty good deal for the city." [laughs] And so- This is... Wait.

397
00:53:30.016 --> 00:53:40.076
This is, this is so interesting to me because I think this is, like... This seems to represent so much, right? Like, I think of, like, um, like how there's a, a bunch of, like, uh,

398
00:53:41.196 --> 00:53:44.946
cri- Talk, like, talk about, like, politicians don't know how to communicate with their base anymore or something. Mm-hmm.

399
00:53:44.956 --> 00:53:50.546
You see this a lot of, like, a lot of hand-wringing around the Democratic Party, like the whole idea of, like, the Joe Rogan of the left. Yeah. [laughs] Yeah, exactly.

400
00:53:50.546 --> 00:54:04.676
You know, I, I think this is, this is the same kind of thing, where there's, like, this, these kind of old standards or, like, old rules where it's like you are this, like, citizen who also makes media, um, but has been paid by this organization, by the city to do- Right...

401
00:54:04.806 --> 00:54:12.236
this one thing, but you also did this other thing that wasn't related and, like, should you have had to disclose this and, like, sh- you know, all, all this stuff.

402
00:54:12.656 --> 00:54:22.046
Um, but it's the kind of thing where, like, the old rules don't really apply- Right. Right... uh, because you're all like, yes, you, the city pays you to do this one thing, but in this other capac- Like, I'm- Right.

403
00:54:22.046 --> 00:54:26.256
Right, right, right... reading this book right now called The New, New Journalism that's, like, um- Okay. I read that... a series of interviews... Yeah.

404
00:54:26.316 --> 00:54:33.536
It's, it's a series of interviews with, um, all these, like, people who've written amazing books, like, you know, like Moneyball. Yeah. Yeah. Like, the guy who wrote that.

405
00:54:33.596 --> 00:54:41.326
Um, and there, there was a lot of questions about, like, "Do you have any rules with, like, your subjects?" And it's like, "I would never give them money," or, "I would never, like, accept them- Right...

406
00:54:41.326 --> 00:54:49.016
to buy me lunch," or whatever. Like, uh, uh, and w- back to, like, the lowercase J versus, like, uppercase J journalism thing, it's like, I, I don't know.

407
00:54:49.116 --> 00:54:59.490
I don't really have, like, a neat answer to this, but I think this is just so illustrative of this sort of, like-This struggle for, like, this new world of media to be born where- Mm-hmm...

408
00:54:59.580 --> 00:55:07.620
yeah, maybe this guy you're mentioning about, who's not even from Wichita, um, like was, was kind of afraid or did kind of look down on you for being this, like, influencer. Right.

409
00:55:08.000 --> 00:55:10.920
Really, it's just really, it's really bizarre. It, it is bizarre.

410
00:55:10.980 --> 00:55:19.340
And to take it a step further, like we had a bunch of other people reach out about, like, other news channels that are like, "Hey, we wanted you to comment on this." I was like, "I'm not talking to anybody else.

411
00:55:19.680 --> 00:55:22.220
Screw you guys." Yeah. [laughs] Like, I'm not giving anyone else the time of day.

412
00:55:22.540 --> 00:55:31.940
[laughs] Uh, but so then, um, there was another kind of local, I think it's like a publicly funded, like one of the other government funded, like, newspaper, radio station type deals. Yeah.

413
00:55:32.080 --> 00:55:41.720
Um, they wrote one, but they published a, um, Google Drive link with like all the documents they pulled from the government, a Freedom of Information Act stuff.

414
00:55:42.280 --> 00:55:53.200
Um, but again, I'm paid by the city, so they have my, what's it? W-9, whatever the form's called. Yeah. Which has, uh, they, they blacked out my social, but they did not black out my address.

415
00:55:53.260 --> 00:55:59.240
So they- So they doxxed you... by default, they doxxed me, and my wife was so pissed. We have three little kids. Yeah.

416
00:55:59.300 --> 00:56:08.070
Like, there's probably somebody in town that's doesn't like us and is kind of crazy, like just by the nature of having this many, 100,000 people,.01 per- Yeah...

417
00:56:08.070 --> 00:56:15.680
0, 1%, there's somebody that's crazy enough to do something. And so she went after them, and is just like, "Okay, time out. Let's take a step back.

418
00:56:15.740 --> 00:56:24.380
If you're gonna hold me to journalistic integrity standards, you need to follow them yourself." Yeah. "Don't act like you're all high and mighty when you go and doxx me and my family." Yeah.

419
00:56:24.440 --> 00:56:34.499
So that was, yeah, that was a, a big deal. But- That's, that is, that is so bizarre. She was, she, her, her response was, she did apologize, I will give her that, and she's since, since moved to different publications.

420
00:56:34.900 --> 00:56:42.740
Yeah. But, uh, her response was, "I didn't know. I ass- assumed that was your business address." I'm like, "Don't assume." It is. But it is, it is you. It is, it is. It's your home. But it's also, it's also- Yeah...

421
00:56:42.750 --> 00:56:48.920
my home address. Yeah. I'm like, come on, just spend a little bit more time looking it up and you'd know that it's my house and not, like, an office. Yeah. Yeah.

422
00:56:48.980 --> 00:56:56.700
But- You- obviously, you Google it, I'm sure there's, uh, no businesses on your block or something. [laughs] Exactly. Exactly. So [laughs] yes. Exactly. It's literally a neighborhood.

423
00:56:57.020 --> 00:57:04.880
But it was funny, 'cause like I was telling this story. Um, we host like a annual party every year, and so this was like, the party was like two weeks after all this happened, so everybody was talking about it.

424
00:57:04.900 --> 00:57:12.340
And, uh, one of our friends that we've met kind of through doing Wichita life stuff, she's like a, I don't know if she's like the... part of an attorney office. She's an attorney. Yeah.

425
00:57:12.420 --> 00:57:19.949
And she's like, "You need to sue them." Like, "They doxxed you. That's illegal." Like, that's not what this is. And I'm like, I don't need to go after them, but like they do need to know, like you can't do that. Yeah.

426
00:57:19.980 --> 00:57:27.340
How do you not know that? [laughs] Yeah. Like, I know that. [laughs] Yeah. Uh, okay. Pivoting a bit, something I wanted to, uh, bring up earlier, but we, we were, we were in the middle of it.

427
00:57:27.440 --> 00:57:39.289
Um, what Michael Coffin is doing with, with Catskill Crew, where like he, uh, you know, he sells board games, puzzles, uh, he's like, his whole idea of this newsletter is a holding company and he's- Yeah...

428
00:57:39.320 --> 00:57:46.500
he's always teasing on Twitter something about like buying land for some new business. [laughs] I don't know what it is, but like he is- So mysterious. Yeah, mysterious.

429
00:57:46.540 --> 00:57:55.380
But anyways, my, my question to you is, like, is there anything like that in your, whether it's your near future or your dreams with what this could be, where you're like, "I wanna spin up this thing"?

430
00:57:55.820 --> 00:58:02.780
Like, or like Ryan Sneden started like some like fancy porta potty business. Yeah. [laughs] Where you're like... Is there anything like that that you're kind of like dreaming up?

431
00:58:03.680 --> 00:58:08.820
There is, and I think right now, I think it's the- You don't have to reveal it too, by the way, if it's like- No, I don't, I don't have anything specific right now. Yeah.

432
00:58:08.940 --> 00:58:17.600
But like, I almost started a, uh, one of them was like an inflatables business. Mm. Um, like r- inflatable rentals, like big bouncy houses and stuff. Mm.

433
00:58:17.830 --> 00:58:26.060
Um, but my, my wife keeps telling me I, I can't start another business off of this until I quit my real job. [laughs] So- Yeah... we've got a little bit of time. But, um, but there's a lot of stuff like that.

434
00:58:26.100 --> 00:58:33.220
It's just like what makes sense for our audience, right? Mm. So, like we, uh, i-t kind of very low-hanging fruit was like I started a job board. Yeah.

435
00:58:33.320 --> 00:58:42.819
Um, uh, using niceboards.com or.co or something, but it takes like 10 minutes to spin up a job board. Very professional looking, looks really good. It's slacking.

436
00:58:42.860 --> 00:58:51.240
Like I, I haven't quite like optimized, but I haven't spent that much time on it. But like- Mm... it's, I don't know, 150 bucks a month, and I'm definitely like net positive over the first year, year and a half.

437
00:58:51.800 --> 00:58:56.140
Um, but like there's little stuff like that. It's like, okay, that's just like something I can slot in as an ad that's easy.

438
00:58:56.660 --> 00:59:02.090
Um, but like I kind of alluded to earlier, was like five years from now, I don't know if I wanna still be writing this every day. Yeah.

439
00:59:02.120 --> 00:59:11.660
Like I'll probably still like at least edit it or like write some of it, but I'll probably have somebody helping me do that, but then I can focus my, my, my brain power, my willpower on like what is a local business.

440
00:59:11.720 --> 00:59:20.600
And it's like, I don't know, I don't wanna do roofing. I don't wanna do stuff like that. It's like it would have to be the right thing, and so like rental type stuff sounds like a good idea, but like who knows?

441
00:59:20.640 --> 00:59:21.480
There's just so much to it.

442
00:59:21.820 --> 00:59:31.050
And something I've seen a lot of people do, and I'm not like taking a shot at anybody, but like they have a little bit of success in like this local newsletter stuff, and they just wanna like scale it to the masses- Yeah...

443
00:59:31.059 --> 00:59:41.880
'cause they've seen like how fa- or like scale to a bunch of different newsletters, um, 'cause they've seen, like I don't know, how easy it can be once you kind of know the right levers to pull on Facebook and Meta.

444
00:59:43.380 --> 00:59:53.850
But I don't know. I just, there's so much juice to squeeze here in Wichita just from like the, the newsletter, let alone all these other layers I can build on top of it. I just wanna go deep and do this really well.

445
00:59:53.940 --> 01:00:00.060
Yeah. Um, and not like, I mean, I could start one in like, I don't know, every little town that's like 60 minutes away or like all of the...

446
01:00:00.100 --> 01:00:10.540
Like Wichita's the biggest town in Kansas, but like start it in all the towns in Kansas and like, whatever, franchise this out or do something. But I'm like, I think that would affect how well I'm doing my main thing.

447
01:00:10.620 --> 01:00:16.900
Um, and like it's so fun. Like I, I remember when Ryan was first talking about like the, the porta potty stuff. It's like, man, should I do that?

448
01:00:16.980 --> 01:00:21.140
Like, I'm already in with all like the people that run the festivals and stuff. Yeah. I'm like, stop. Shining object syndrome.

449
01:00:21.200 --> 01:00:26.500
Like, just focus on the newsletter, like, until this is like optimized as much as it can be, which it's not.

450
01:00:26.600 --> 01:00:36.150
Um, I think something like going into this conversation I thought we might talk about, so I kinda thought about it a little bit, but like, okay, we talked about like how big it could be, uh, audience wise- Yeah...

451
01:00:36.160 --> 01:00:45.690
and it's like maybe that's 100, maybe it's 200,000, maybe it's 300,000, which is like half of the metro population. Um, but like from like a dollar standpoint, like how much could just the newsletter make?

452
01:00:46.260 --> 01:00:57.194
I mean, I think like half a million is pretty realistic. Yeah. Um, based on like, okay, right now I only send four times a week, so let's say I max out the ads on here-I can add a fifth day pretty easy, right?

453
01:00:57.244 --> 01:01:05.014
I'm sure you can raise your ad rates at some point too as the audience gets bigger. I can raise my ad rates. But like, j- just add... If I keep everything the same and I just add an extra day, that's a 25% bump, right?

454
01:01:05.044 --> 01:01:12.594
Yeah. So it's like a fifth instead of a just four days. Um, but it's like literally just breaking it down. Like, even if I'm taking off some days for holidays, let's say there's 50 weeks,

455
01:01:13.544 --> 01:01:22.304
and it's like, okay, to make half a million, I only need 10,000 a week. That's 2,000 a day. And like, if I'm sending out to 100,000 people, there's probably somebody willing me to pay, even if that's two ads.

456
01:01:22.344 --> 01:01:31.304
So $1,000 apiece for two ads. Like, that's gonna be pretty dang easy to sell. Like, I'm not- Well, go back to Ryan. Like, one of his main advertisers is some, like, luxury real estate broker or something like that.

457
01:01:31.314 --> 01:01:39.354
Exactly. And that's, I think- It's like I'm not terribly far off from this anyways. Mm-hmm. So it's like if I just optimize it, sell two ads slots a day, five days a week for 50 weeks, I hit half a million. Yeah.

458
01:01:39.364 --> 01:01:46.604
So it's like you just break it down. I'm like, "Am I there yet? No, but I'm not far off," and I... That is, like, a pretty easy within a few years, I think that's where we're at.

459
01:01:47.004 --> 01:02:03.554
I think what, what, what you were saying a second ago I think is something that, that charms me about the way you approach this and about, and about Wichita Life, is like you do come from it, come to it from this place of, like, caring about your community and not trying to just, like, scale and, like, really, like, squeeze every bit out of this, right?

460
01:02:03.724 --> 01:02:13.034
Right. I, I, I think in general with the people I look to interview too that I'm always interested in that, of like the people who, like, wanna build a good business that isn't, like, world eating, right? Right. Right.

461
01:02:13.034 --> 01:02:22.974
Right. That just like serves a community and a purpose and, like, doesn't exploit that community, that audience, right? Um, that there's, like, a real r- sense of responsibility.

462
01:02:22.984 --> 01:02:33.244
Which is a question I used to ask people, um, and then I stopped 'cause I, I didn't always get good answers. But I would ask people, like, "What responsibility do you think you have to your audience?" Um- Mm-hmm...

463
01:02:33.324 --> 01:02:42.284
and I haven't asked anybody this in a while, but I, I wanna ask you. Like, what is... Do you, is this something you think about and you've defined for yourself, a responsibility to your audience? Sure.

464
01:02:42.364 --> 01:02:52.144
Um, and to your point, I think it is, like, a feature, not a bug- Mm-hmm... to intentionally kinda cap that and, like, focus on just Wichita and, like, what we can control. Um, but do I feel a responsibility?

465
01:02:52.664 --> 01:03:00.644
Again, it's like part of it's like, I don't know, it's like when they ask, like, a NBA player or something, like Kevin Durant, they're like, "Whatever. You're not a role model." He's like, "I don't wanna be a role model.

466
01:03:00.664 --> 01:03:09.874
That's not what I try to be." Exactly. But like, at some point, like, if you have enough influence and reach, you do have some responsibility, right? Mm-hmm. So, like, I can't just go post something.

467
01:03:09.944 --> 01:03:16.274
Not that, like, slander is ever the right word. Well, in the, in the same way... Just to interrupt you for a second. Yeah. Yeah. In the same way that, that the reporter who reported your, your home address. Exactly.

468
01:03:16.324 --> 01:03:24.284
She act- she had a bigger enough audience, there was a responsibility- Exactly... to dox you. I think... Exactly. I'm not gonna go post this girl's address. Yeah. I have a responsibility. That's not okay. Like- Yeah.

469
01:03:24.353 --> 01:03:30.374
And I think it's just, like, having some sort of internal moral compass of, like, what is right and what's not right. Yeah.

470
01:03:30.384 --> 01:03:38.594
[laughs] And I think some people, too, and this is not to bash on, again, any other newsletter, but like some people, like, won't promote certain things. Yeah. Won't promote, like, promote, like, a GoFundMe.

471
01:03:38.724 --> 01:03:44.444
But, like, there might be, like, a bad accident, and this family has a GoFundMe. I'm like, "Okay, I can plug that in the newsletter."

472
01:03:44.504 --> 01:03:52.494
Like, there might only be one person that's interested in that, but if that one person is willing to donate to this GoFundMe, it's probably worth it, 'cause it's gonna help that family in the long run. Yeah.

473
01:03:52.524 --> 01:04:02.964
Like, somebody's not gonna unsubscribe because I put a GoFundMe for, like, a family in there. And so it's just there is some responsibility. Um, but yeah, I think it's just, it's a case by case for everything. Mm-hmm.

474
01:04:03.044 --> 01:04:15.573
Uh, so you are just over eight years in now since you started the, the Instagram. Uh, two years, I think, uh, April after next, you will be one decade in, which is a pretty big milestone. That's crazy, yeah. So what...

475
01:04:15.604 --> 01:04:23.384
Yeah. What would you, what would you like to mark that milestone with? Is there some goal, some, like, revenue, audience, whatever, something more abstract?

476
01:04:23.424 --> 01:04:32.384
What would you like to mark a decade of Wichita Life with in two years? That is a great point. That's a great question. Um, so we, we host an annual party, and we've talked about it. Not the...

477
01:04:32.424 --> 01:04:41.204
My wife was a event coordinator prior to us having kids. Mm-hmm. Um, so she helped with weddings and stuff, so she's a huge help with that. But it is, it is, like, a lot of work to throw these, like, bigger parties.

478
01:04:41.664 --> 01:04:50.044
Um, and so we're like, do we wanna do one? We, we may or may not do one next year, but, like, we're like, for 10, let's go big. Let's figure out what that is. Yeah. Um, but I mean, again, two years.

479
01:04:50.664 --> 01:05:00.864
I, I've been saying for, like, three years I'm, like, 12 to 18 months away from quitting to go full time. [laughs] There's, like, a perpetually moving 12 to 18 months. Um, but maybe 10 years. Maybe that's the goal.

480
01:05:00.924 --> 01:05:08.794
Maybe it's, like, in two years, like, I quit to go full time on this. And again, I'm not in a rush to quit my current job, and they know I do Wichita Life, and they're very supportive of it. Yeah.

481
01:05:08.804 --> 01:05:16.464
And, like, they don't... They're like, "If we can have you for six months or six years, that kinda will take you for whatever that period of time is." But that would probably be the goal. Um, I think that's...

482
01:05:16.504 --> 01:05:21.484
I don't know. I haven't really thought about it that much for that. That was the first thing that popped in my head. Um, so whether that's me making...

483
01:05:22.224 --> 01:05:27.954
I mean, I mean, maybe I'm just on the same track I am now, and it just, I'm, it's even more stable with, like, longer term partnerships. Yeah.

484
01:05:27.964 --> 01:05:38.404
Or maybe I double or triple the revenue and we're making close to 3 to 500,000. Um, I would say those are some pretty good mile markers. And let me think. Three or 20... Do some math real quick.

485
01:05:38.824 --> 01:05:48.164
I don't know, it'd probably be, like, 50 to 60,000 email subs probably, um, is probably a pretty safe number by the 10 year mark. Um, okay.

486
01:05:48.244 --> 01:05:55.644
This is a good answer, because the other thing I was wondering was what it would take to, to make you feel safe enough to quit. 'Cause you've got three kids, you've got this young family.

487
01:05:56.204 --> 01:06:12.684
Um, y- you, uh, when we, when we first met like a month ago, you, you brought this up to me, that, like, you kind of, like, would lean in when you would, when you would listen to this podcast and people would talk about, like, the moment they quit their job to do the thing full time or whatever, because it's, like, this kind of, this dream that always feels out of reach for you.

488
01:06:12.824 --> 01:06:20.784
So I, I'm happy to hear you say this. Uh- [laughs] You'll have to, you'll have to clip this, uh- I will. Yeah, absolutely... and look back in two years [laughs] and see if this- Absolutely.

489
01:06:20.844 --> 01:06:27.334
I might, I might put it up on, like, have a screen on my wall that just has it on loop so I can keep- Yeah... thinking about it. But absolutely. Yeah. So I mean, it...

490
01:06:27.384 --> 01:06:34.254
I think, I think that's a good way to, to, to mark- Yeah... the decade. Um- I think so too... last thing. Have you ever almost quit doing this?

491
01:06:34.404 --> 01:06:46.974
Not quit your job to do this full time, but, like, I mean, it's obviously, I'm sure your work-life balance with this job, family, uh, has, is not alwa- or, like, maybe it's balanced, but completely full. Yeah. Yeah.

492
01:06:46.974 --> 01:06:55.344
Um, yeah, have you ever gotten really close to, to quitting and just, like, doing your family life, doing your job, having some hobbies and that's it? That... Yeah.

493
01:06:55.504 --> 01:07:08.084
I honestly-I would say there's times when I've been close to burnout, but I've never almost quit. There's times like I, it's 11:00 PM and I haven't started my newsletter, I'm like, "God, this sucks."

494
01:07:08.104 --> 01:07:14.103
But like most of the time, like I look forward to writing. Like- Yeah. I, I think about it probably way too much.

495
01:07:14.624 --> 01:07:24.714
Um, but I think it's just, I don't know, some people are like building these local newsletters to try to sell them off in a year or two. Like, my vision is more of what does this look like in 10 years? Yeah.

496
01:07:24.724 --> 01:07:29.724
What does this look like in 20 years? Like, how big could this be? Is it reaching 250,000 people?

497
01:07:29.764 --> 01:07:37.844
And like, that's how every single person in Wichita opens their, like starts their morning, is reading the Wichita Life Update. Um, and then from that it's like literally the sky's the limit.

498
01:07:37.884 --> 01:07:46.924
Like, not that I wanna be a celebrity, and I don't wanna be a celebrity whatsoever, but like people would know like, oh, Wichita- Who you wanna be is a pillar of the Wichita community, is what it sounds like. Right.

499
01:07:47.064 --> 01:07:55.344
Right. And they can, they know they can trust Landon. Yeah. Like, I built up enough trust over eight years, 18 years, 28 years, like they're like, "Wow, Landon's been doing this forever. This is awesome."

500
01:07:55.404 --> 01:08:02.614
Like, there's been people like in the legacy media that's like, I used to... Or, uh, like, uh, what's his name? Like Bill Simmons used to write for Sports Illustrated. Yeah.

501
01:08:02.644 --> 01:08:10.183
I used to flip to that page to read his articles in Sports Illustrated, 'cause I knew I liked that every month. Um- Yeah... so it's like I wanna be kinda, yeah, like one of those pillars.

502
01:08:10.264 --> 01:08:20.824
But, um, honestly I've never-- I've been close to like maybe getting like temporarily burned out, but I think a lot of that's like, I need to understand my limits and kind of bake in some time.

503
01:08:20.924 --> 01:08:26.044
Um, so whether that's like I take off a couple days at Christmas, take off a couple days around the 4th of July.

504
01:08:26.124 --> 01:08:32.734
Um, in January, we took our kids to Disney World, and I didn't wanna take my laptop 'cause it's heavy and I've- [laughs]... already carrying so many bags of kids' stuff.

505
01:08:32.764 --> 01:08:39.114
And you're not just talking about the physical weight, the heavy burden of the laptop [laughs]. Oh, yeah. That's not a vacation. That is a lot to take kids to Disney World. Yeah.

506
01:08:39.284 --> 01:08:44.864
Um, but the way I was able to handle that with the newsletter was like, okay, whatever, Saturday I can pretty much write Monday's email.

507
01:08:45.444 --> 01:08:49.514
Um, the Wednesday email's a deep dive, so I can pre-write that 'cause it's not based on news. Mm.

508
01:08:49.524 --> 01:08:55.384
Thursday is an events newsletter, so I already know basically what events are gonna happen next weekend, so I pre-wrote all of those emails.

509
01:08:55.764 --> 01:09:02.424
And then I just said in the Thursday email, "Hey, I'm not gonna send an email tomorrow on Friday. I'll see you on Monday." I don't have to explain why, it's my newsletter. Yeah. I can do whatever I want.

510
01:09:02.774 --> 01:09:06.684
[laughs] But I just told them I'm not sending one, so then I didn't think about it for a week. Mm.

511
01:09:06.744 --> 01:09:14.704
And so then I come back, whatever, on Saturday or Sunday, I gotta write one for Monday, but like I've had a fresh brain for a week of doing this. So it's kind of refreshed, ready to get back at it.

512
01:09:15.144 --> 01:09:21.664
I, I went camping recently and I didn't bring my laptop and I barely looked at my phone, and I, I know that feeling. You need to refresh. It's, it's great.

513
01:09:21.674 --> 01:09:31.364
Um, last question I wanna ask you, we've been talking for a while. Um, if you were doing this all over again, um, now, let, you know, you're like, "Oh, I wanna...

514
01:09:31.404 --> 01:09:40.224
I love Wichita and I wanna somehow engage the community," would you start with an Instagram page again, or how would you, how do you think this would all start today? Yeah. Probably.

515
01:09:40.264 --> 01:09:47.624
Inst- Instagram's the easiest, I think. Um, I think it's- Even today? I don't know. I think so. I think so. I mean, I would probably do it in tandem with other stuff.

516
01:09:47.664 --> 01:09:55.744
So like, again, I, I use Instagram, and then like if I make a short-term vide- short-form video, that's going on Shorts, on YouTube, that's going to TikTok, going to Facebook.

517
01:09:56.424 --> 01:10:05.164
Um, but I, I always come back to that as kind of the base. I would start an Instagram. I think, I mean, in the Newsletter Club, I've seen guys that have grown like way faster than I grew.

518
01:10:05.204 --> 01:10:11.484
Like, mine's kind of been steady, like a few big blips here and there. They're growing extremely fast, just like trying different content.

519
01:10:11.544 --> 01:10:19.113
Like, there's green screen people, like Jacob Espinoza and What's Happening Salem. Mm. Like, he's doing green screen stuff and he's at like 30,000 or 40,000 in like six months.

520
01:10:19.144 --> 01:10:27.034
And like Jas in Winnipeg has done a lot of different things, um, and grown a lot. And then there's Michael Kaufman, he doesn't even use Instagram really- [laughs]... but he's crushing it. So it's like- Yeah...

521
01:10:27.084 --> 01:10:32.744
it's really whatever you wanna do. If you hate Instagram, if you hate making content, that type of content, don't do it.

522
01:10:32.844 --> 01:10:44.364
Just write an email or like use Twitter or Threads, or like there's so many options, whether it's written, video, podcasts, Canva graphics, like, or leverage AI, which is a whole nother thing.

523
01:10:44.844 --> 01:10:52.704
But there's so many options. I personally would start with Instagram again. Um- Yeah... but I would probably, yeah, kinda start the, the newsletter and the Instagram in tandem.

524
01:10:53.224 --> 01:11:02.744
I think there's a good lesson there, which is like, uh, both in that, um, and you saying that you don't, you like doing Instagram, you like doing the newsletter, but also what we were talking a second ago about you just care about Wichita.

525
01:11:02.784 --> 01:11:15.564
I think, uh, like the only way to be successful in this, you know, the competitive creator economy, attention economy, is to spend a lot of time doing it, and the only way to spend a lot of time doing it is to really care about it and enjoy the things you're doing.

526
01:11:15.664 --> 01:11:23.054
[laughs] Right. Uh, and I, I always say like the only piece of advice that really matters in this arena is like just do it, and then keep doing it over time. Yes.

527
01:11:23.064 --> 01:11:29.784
But that's the other side, is you, you're not gonna be able to do that unless you just really love what you're doing. Yeah. I would say you just have... Yeah, you just have to get started.

528
01:11:29.824 --> 01:11:35.324
I think I've been on a couple other pod- like local podcasts in the last year or two. Mm-hmm. And I think that's the thing I keep coming back to. Like,

529
01:11:36.284 --> 01:11:41.584
in college I was trying to take such a big swing, you know, make the next Facebook, but like I was waiting on the idea.

530
01:11:41.784 --> 01:11:47.324
But it's like you could literally just start an Instagram account tomorrow or start whatever- Yeah... an email newsletter tomorrow and just get started.

531
01:11:47.404 --> 01:11:56.874
Um, you, the way, what you were just saying just now reminded me of a, I think it's a Naval quote, but it's like, "Productize yourself." Mm. Like, nobody's gonna be better at being you than being you, than you are. Yeah.

532
01:11:56.904 --> 01:12:05.524
And so, uh, just do that. Like, again, the newslet- am I the best lowercase J journalist in Wichita? Am I the best at like content creation and stuff?

533
01:12:05.624 --> 01:12:11.384
I'm not, but like I can infuse a little bit of my personality into those emails and stuff, and so people like receiving those.

534
01:12:11.804 --> 01:12:17.344
Um, and I think it's just like putting a little bit of yourself in that, and maybe it doesn't work at first. Like, I'm not a...

535
01:12:17.704 --> 01:12:22.394
None of us are simple beings, like we all have a lot of stuff, like might be the dad jokes or whatever. Mm-hmm.

536
01:12:22.404 --> 01:12:29.684
Like, certain experiences, but like we all have kind of our own take and perspective and kind of view on the world. How can you kinda use that?

537
01:12:29.744 --> 01:12:37.324
And if it doesn't work, again, there's so many different angles you are personally taking, let alone everyone else, just kinda put that into the work. Perfect. We'll end it right there. Landon, thank you.

538
01:12:37.364 --> 01:12:44.004
This was such a fun episode. Yeah. I appreciate it, Francis. This was awesome. Thank you so much. Perfect. Listener, we will see you next week. Thanks again.

539
01:12:44.284 --> 01:13:03.964
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