Welcome back to the Creator Spotlight podcast. Our guest today is Theo Lloyd-Hughes, a journalist who runs Squad Depth, a newsletter and podcast covering women's soccer in the US and Mexico.
It's a place for slow-paced, soft, and curious stories about the sport.
Theo also produces The Athletic's flagship US women's soccer podcast full-time, writes freelance for a number of outlets, and researches the National Women's Soccer League for the company that makes the wildly popular Football Manager video game.
Theo, how are you? I'm very well. Thank you so much for the kind words and immaculately researched, uh, [laughs] bio. Of course. I couldn't have said it better myself. Of course. Um, I, I...
So I should say for full disclosure, listener, uh, that Theo and I do actually know each other, but we haven't spoken in about five years or so. Facts. We worked together. Um- Former, former colleagues.
Former colleagues, yes. We worked together in a coffee shop in New Orleans like seven years ago. Um, but I found his newsletter and realized it was him, and I had to reach out to do this podcast.
And you did, and here we are. And I did, and here we are. Um, okay. So when I knew you, I knew you were into soccer, but I didn't necessarily know- Mm-hmm... that you were into, that you were doing soccer journalism.
How long have you been doing soccer journalism, and how did you get into it? So when I knew you, I was before, still technically now. Still now, yeah. Uh, when we were working at that coffee shop, I was doing more music.
Mm-hmm. I was playing football. I was a football fanatic. And actually- You ran a label, right? I ran a music record label, exactly. Okay. And I did music journalism kind of around that time.
I was then got into publish- music publishing, music PR. So I was always sort of around journalists doing journalism, uh, kind of like things- Yeah... but not necessarily in football.
Um, I tried my hand at football journalism when I was, uh, prior to university, coming out of high school, as Americans say. Mm-hmm.
Uh, during my time at university, I wrote for s- you know, like the university paper about sport.
But it wasn't really until the pandemic or just before, kind of like 2019, right before the pandemic, I kind of like got back into writing about football, mostly about my boyhood club, Queens Park Rangers, and the 2019 Women's World Cup was sort of like the two things, like the two sort of moments where I was like, "Oh, I feel so passionately about this."
Mm-hmm. "I've gotta put more words down. I've gotta put more thoughts down." So sort of 2019, and then when the pandemic hit, it really kind of put an end to my already quite fragile existence as like a creator. Mm-hmm.
So the thing I could do more of was sit at home and write about football. So that, uh, and talk about football. Yeah. Um, so that was, yeah. I kind of like dipped my toe back in 2019.
Then when the pandemic hit, I put more energy into it. Yeah. Um, you, one of your first things I think you did was you started a podcast with your sister, who also- Correct... works in football media. Tell me about that.
Yeah. So my sister is an amazing journalist and radio presenter, TV presenter.
Runs a podcast called Counter Pressed, which everyone listening to this, if you're trying to get into English women's football, highly recommend it.
So she, she was already working in football, but, y- you know, the pandemic stopped everything in its tracks- Mm-hmm...
and she found herself with more free time, and, you know, no one was paying her to do as much as she was doing prior to the pandemic, especially not in the women's game, which for those that don't know, you know, 2019/20, um,
English women's season was just canceled. Mm-hmm. They never even played the games. Oh, they actually didn't. Is it? That's it. Yeah. So that season, the pandemic season, they, they just ended it.
They just said, "That's it. We can't get these games back." Sorry. Yeah. Exactly. Sorry. That's, that's the kind of the state of the women's game back then.
But even, um, now to some extent, you know, there's just not the same amount of money. There's not the same amount of support. Yeah.
So when people start cutting, trimming the fat, the women's game often gets kind of the, the- I feel like, am I right that like the average, let's say English Premier League, um, women's, like y- yearly salary is equal to like your average like, you know, well-paid men's English Premier League's weekly salary, right?
Something like that. [exhales] I mean, not to like put an exact number on it, but the scale of the difference. No, that's probably a good metric. Yeah. Definitely at the top of the table. Yeah.
Definitely the top of the table. I don't, I don't know about, like, you know- Your Bukayo Sakas, your Leah Williamsons. Yeah. Yeah, I mean, Leah is probably- Is a hyper analogy, yeah. [laughs]...
earning a good wage for a person in 2024, but not what Saka will be earning. Yeah. Um, you know, for those listening who don't know, those are two footballers, men and women, who play for Arsenal Football Club.
Anyway, going back. So yeah, the s- the women's football season was canceled. She lost some work. I was doing some writing and podcasting on my own.
Uh, I just started writing about American women's soccer, and so we kind of decided that our relationship, being very close to one another, loving football, gr- growing up loving women's football together, I think that was like- Yeah...
something which bonded us. And then- And it's like this pandemic, you know, you can't see each other. You haven't seen, you can't see your family. It strikes me as like very much this like- Yeah...
passion project about football, but also like of like needing to connect, right, with your family who's, you know, half a world away. Yeah. No, that's a really... I mean, needing con- to connect with anyone, right? Yeah.
[laughs] I think like that was the scariest thing about that time was like connections became so fraught,
and the people you were sort of allowed or told you were allowed to connect to became so minimal that I think- Mm-hmm... Zooming people, especially family members or close friends, chosen family, became like a lifeline.
And so- Yeah... between our burgeoning careers and her career being slightly on pause, it was a way for us to sort of like catch up and have a cup of tea every week- Yeah... and put it out there as journalism.
So it was a bit of a cheat. It was kind of us just like nattering on. But we also kind of had, a bit like what you're saying, the connection part. Like we had this vision to do a show about-... family in football.
And so there are a few episodes, I think three or four. We, we interviewed people who work in football with their siblings. Yeah. So it was, there was- Oh, nice... there are a couple of sibling on sibling episodes. Yeah.
Jimmy Fields, a former NWSL player, played at, uh, University of Southern California, the Houston Dash, Wash- Washington Spirit.
Her brother was a, played in the MLB, the Major League Baseball in the United States, and we talked to them about growing up as sibling athletes. Oh, okay.
And really beautiful episode talking about support and love and appreciation for one another. That, that one got really emotional. We, we, we spoke to these two twins that played for Queens Park Rangers- Mm...
our, our, um, boyhood club that we love to support.
We also spoke to some kind of sisters who one of them works in football media, one of them doesn't work in football, but they grew up hating each other and then when they were sort of in their early 20s they, they rediscovered their relationship with each other vi- via going to Chelsea women- Yeah...
uh, in London.
And so we kind of like found these siblings that sort of had football as a connection, like you were saying, that kind of like mirrored our sense of like our relationship is so important to one another because of football.
Mm-hmm. So it was a bit of, it was kind of quite indulgent or quite emotional, family-based, but we would also sort of cover all the major story lines from England and the USA. Yeah. Um, and it was a lot of fun.
And I- So- Yeah, I don't think I would be where I am today without Relatively- Without it... Relatively Football is the name of the show. Yeah, which is a great name.
And like Francis said, there are 61 episodes out there, and we always joke. We were in Sydney last year for the World Cup together, and we always joke about sort of bringing back a special episode or something. Yeah.
So okay, so it sounds like it was a success in that, you know, it was kind of an incubator for your desires- Yeah... yeah, for your passion in like football media. Um, going back to writing, when- Yeah...
was the first time you were paid for, for football journalism? That is a great question. Um, I think it was in March 2021. Oh, okay. So it really did like kind of lead up directly to- Yeah.
So I got a job working for The Striker, a now defunct football publication, uh, covering American football. Sorry, American soccer. Yeah. [laughs] Uh, that's misleading. Um, American soccer.
Uh, and at the time that I was hired, they were h- just covering Texas- Oh... and sort of the national teams. They, they kind of... A- as time went on it was a real startup energy. Yeah.
So I was getting paid, which like at the time was mind-blowing.
Like Francis, I cannot tell you-- I don't know if, what, if you've ever been paid to do something you, you love, but it is quite life- I'm doing it right now. [laughs] You're doing it right now. There you go.
That's a great, it's a great feeling. And I think, you know, for those listening out there that like know, know what that's like, it's very... You, you feel very accomplished. Yeah.
That can ch- that can change, as anyone knows. A labor of love. You know what that, what that phrase goes, like you don't work a day in your life if you do what you love.
That's not entirely true, because what happens is you end up working all the time because you love what you do and you basically just like become obsessive or overworked or burnt out. And I think- You never clock out.
You never clock out. Exactly. Yeah. So I, it kind of very quickly... Well, not quickly.
I had a really good run at The Striker and, and like I said, the, our website ended up dissolving and the startup didn't work, but we can go into that more. Yeah.
But getting that first paycheck from them to write stories about women's soccer, produce podcasts for them, do their newsletter, which is like what my job en- which at the time I was like, when I look back I'm like, "Wow, it's crazy they asked me to do so much for w- you know, the amount they were paying me."
Yeah. And I just said yes. Now I'm like, I would never agree to do- To that much... a podcast, a newsletter, you know, four articles a week,
show up to like three or four meetings, do strategically, like all these things that we were doing at the time. For probably like a fixed weekly fee or something on freelance contract. Yeah. Exactly, exactly.
No, no, it's true. I wasn't e- I had no benefits. I had no- Yeah... I was a contracted employee, but I was getting paid to talk about and write about football. Which is kind of like the thing you have to accept, right?
Especially- Yeah... as we've kind of been touching on, like the women's game is much less lucrative. I'm sure it's even... Actually, I... Is it, is the women's game bigger in the US or the UK, do you think?
Like in terms of like money invested in it- It's a good question... and such. I think... I mean, I think we could do a whole podcast about that. On that. [laughs] I think there's more media dedicated to soccer- Yeah...
in the UK. And thus when they want to include women's football in that, the lights shine brighter. Yeah.
But in terms of dedicated media, I'd say it's quite comparable, or maybe there's a little bit more in the UK. But, but not a lot. That's kind of my feeling. Yeah.
I think- Because I feel like the US women's team is like, it's, it's so huge here. Like the US national team- Well, I-... for example... yes. I, I would also maybe split.
This is the other thing I think, you know, I don't... I, I kind of... We need to talk more about your soccer awakening maybe. Yeah.
[laughs] Um, if, if the listeners don't know, I'm not sure at what, at what point you talked about it. I talk about it sometimes. Okay.
I think there is a disconnect between the US women's national team that is immensely popular- Mm-hmm... immensely visible. They obviously just won the gold medal. Yeah. Congrats to them. Time of this... Congrats to them.
To time date this podcast, they just won the gold medal, uh, in Paris, and, and that, you know, 10 million people would watch that.
Those players will, their Instagram follows, their sort of national recognition will, will increase and increase and increase. Yeah.
But your everyday footballer, your footballer that plays in the National Women's Soccer League, which is the American women's professional league, like that coverage, that dedicated coverage is so much less- Mm-hmm...
than the national outlets and dedicated soccer reporters or sports reporters that will cover the, the team when the sto- you know, you know what I mean, during a tournament- Yeah... like a World Cup or an Olympics.
So there's a bit of a disconnect. The pop-up media storm. Yeah, exactly. So I think when the US want to pop up that media storm, phenomenal coverage. Yeah. And I think that maybe does rival or even leapfrog- Mm-hmm...
the English coverage to some extent.
But on a day-to-day basis, I'd, I'd say maybe the UK has a little bit more embedded, and part of that is because you have more people maybe covering-An Arsenal Football Club or a Chelsea Football Club Yeah And they can sort of hop over and do the women's game.
Or there's dedicated reporters as well. Um, we're seeing more and more someone like Tom Garry, uh, who's been doing really good work at The Telegraph, has now joined Suzy Rack at The Guardian.
The Guardian to have two women's soccer reporters is, like a big step forward. But, you know, it's 2024 and we've just got- Yeah... to a, at a major publication.
Well- So you c- Well, so but my, my point I wanna go back to though here is like- Yeah... that the fact like maybe you weren't being paid much at The Striker, but the fact that you were being paid at all is like- Yes...
you have to accept that. Yes. That's, that's the, the, that's the price of like, uh, an education really in like covering the game and like in the, the machinations of like a media business, right?
Like that's i- i- i- you're getting... It's kind of a work study in a way. You can frame it like that. I think you can frame it like that. I think it was partly framed to me like that. [laughs] I think my- Explicitly.
[laughs] Explicitly. I think my employer was like, "Hey, you're this guy with a lot of energy who's been doing lots of cool stuff, but it's not like you-" Yeah. I'd written on blogs and stuff, and I'd had a bit of
support for editing, uh, on websites I'd written on and stuff like that. But I think, yeah, there was this idea that like, "We're gonna pay you whatever, and you're gonna be in a proper newsroom and be- Mm-hmm...
work with people who've been in the industry longer than you, and that'll rub off." And to be fair, to their credit, it probably did. [laughs] Yeah. That being said, I don't know...
And this isn't like we, we don't, I don't live in a vacuum. No. The soccer industry, the media sports industry in this landscape is, is what it is. But I don't know if I would necessarily want anyone to be earning
what I was earning or like... You know what I mean? Like, I don't necessarily- Yeah... think it's sustainable, even if there is an educational part. Well, it's not sustainable. The company doesn't exist anymore.
The company doesn't exist anymore. [laughs] I, you know, I was living in, you know, in the American South. If I wasn't living in the American South- Rent's cheap... I w- rent's, rent's cheaper.
If I wasn't living the way I was, if I wasn't in a one-bedroom flat married to someone where we can share. You know what I mean? There's all these little things. If I wasn't a healthy person. Yeah.
Um, there's all these things, living in the United States, you know, or the cost of living in the UK, wherever you are, but I think it's particularly bad in the United States right now, that absolutely exclude people- Yeah...
from having the kind of entry point that I did to take the amount of money that I accepted- Mm... to, to put more time into it.
Well, there was actually- And, you know- Wait, there's this quote I'd like to read, uh, from the first episode of the Squad Depth podcast. You were interviewing- Oh my God... uh, soccer journalist Caitlin Best.
Is- And she says- Oh, yeah, yeah. Yeah. Caitlin's great. Yeah. She says, uh... Well, she's the best. Uh, [laughs] sorry for that. She's in Portland actually. Yeah. Yeah. I, I- Oh, have you listened to the episode?
As I heard, heard the episode. Yeah, yeah. I was gonna say- Well, she-... she's one of, she's one of yours. But so, so, so she said, um, "I had this feeling early on that this could be a career.
If the world was a different place, it absolutely, like soccer journalism could have been a career for me. It's just a really hard field to get into at all.
Uh, and if your niche is women's soccer, it's obviously even harder." Um, so this seems like something- Yeah. Shout out Caitlin... you would say yourself as well. Absolutely. And Caitlin's a real head, man.
Caitlin put in so much time and s- like before I did travel the world- Yeah... covering the US Women's National Team and, and the Portland men's and women's teams, which were kind of like her go-tos.
And amazing person, now works for Angel City Football Club, the most expensive women's, you know, the most expensive women's football club in the world. One of the biggest brands.
You know, she had to make the transition. This is in LA? This is in Los Angeles. Ah. Yeah.
So she transitioned into that side because if you wanna work in football, if you wanna do something creative, that's probably the more stable paycheck than covering it- Mm...
as a media member than, you know, like we've just kind of gone over.
Well, media businesses are hard to sustain as a business monetarily, whereas a football club is, you know, not, it's still not easy, but, you know, you sell tickets and jerseys and such.
Yeah, you get broadcasting, you get sponsorships. Yeah. I mean, it'll be amazing to some extent if that's...
And may- maybe media is already going this way a little bit, although maybe that touches on what you wanna talk about in newsletter stuff.
But like, you know, if you think about media companies needing to sell tickets- Yeah... get sponsorships, you know, like that's what some media companies basically have to try and do. Well, advertising funds the media.
Uh, so I- Right. Exactly... this is, this is not- It's not that different from a football club. It's not. It's... Well, they're both entertainment.
Um, well, some journalism is, is more than entertainment, but, uh, they're both, they're both, uh, under the flattening eye of the internet. They're both content, at least, so.
Which I mean, it's in- I'd love to just pick your brains on that. Yeah. Like how do you feel about the word content?
Well, uh, so this is, this is something I haven't actually talked about on this pod for a while, but- Here we go... it's something I've brought up a lot.
Um, I mean, the word content is, doesn't really mean anything because like- Exactly... there's no such thing as content.
There is, there's writing, there's audio, there's podcasting, there's music, there's, um, there's video, there's film, there's short form reels, uh, TikToks, et cetera. Um- Skits. Yeah. Songs.
So content is like, content doesn't really mean anything. It's like it collects all of those things, but it lacks any nuance.
Um, like sometimes people will sign up for Creator Spotlight and, you know, reply to the welcome email that we send out, uh, where I ask them like, "Oh, what do you do? Like what kind of content do you produce?"
[laughs] And I use, I use that vague word there. Um, but sometimes people are like, "Oh, like, well, I'm, I'm just beginning. I don't really produce anything, but I really wanna learn how to produce content."
And I always just reply back to that something like, "Well, like you don't think of, don't think about con- like do you want... Do you like writing? Do you- Mm... like, you know, making videos?
Do you like making long form videos? Do you like making short form videos?" Like, so I think content is like a useful word to, uh, package up like everything we look at on our phones, right?
But it's, nuance is, is, is, is crucial there. Yeah. I think there's something very reductive about the word, although the way you just described it, I am realizing that it is incredibly efficient. Yeah.
That's what it is. And in part of me sometimes feels like efficiency is the death of nuance, the death of sort of really telling the right story, but it's also, you know, there's only so many hours in the day.
Yeah.I hate wasting people's time. And so maybe content is a useful word. So it always reminds me- So wait, something- Sorry. Sorry, I won't interrupt you.
So, uh, as long as I've known you- [laughs] You know, in, [laughs] in the brief time I knew you in New Orleans and even now, something I, something that always struck me about you is you're a very consciously values-driven person, I think, in a way- Mm-hmm...
that many people, most people I know, probably even myself, are not.
You, you always struck me as like being very conscious in, in your values and the way you like move through life, and it's, it's in what you're talking about now and like, you know, how efficiency is like,
you know, can... is not necessarily... Your, your value is quality, not efficiency. Um, so I don't know.
I'd love to hear you speak about like kind of your values as a journalist, as, uh, as we could say, as a content creator. Well, yeah, I mean, it goes back to... Thank you.
Uh, and yeah, I think it goes back to s- trying to just worry about the type of story you're telling rather than necessarily like what, uh, you think a soccer sh- story should look like- Yeah...
or repeating the soccer stories that you grew up reading or like just... I'm not say- necessarily saying you need to like totally rethink the industry. I'm not necessarily- No, not every time- I-... you put pen to page.
Yeah. No, I'm not thinking be that radical. I'm just saying just be real. Mm-hmm. Like, just be you. Don't... But I think like that's why the word content can be in- quite intense sometimes because
I think it creates this idea that we're all just like producing the same thing, right? Mm-hmm. And I guess I'm just trying to like empower people to be who they are and, and be individualistic. And like
when it goes back to my journalistic values, I'm really just trying to be me. Yeah. And like the upside of being a freelancer is you can pretty much write about whatever you want and you get to be yourself.
The downside is like earning significant income- Yeah... and having safety nets. But I do, like you said, I do really value that first one.
And going back, taking it back to The Striker, like because I wasn't being paid so much and they were a brand new company, I had a lot of editorial o- oversight. Yeah.
And I could make and tell the stories I wanted to tell and it didn't have to look like other stuff, and that I think is really cool. And I think my consistency for journalism is that I wanna be a storyteller. I wanna be
a voice that helps people. And then maybe this is the hard part, helps people who are already in the game and people who aren't in the game understand the game or understand people more.
That's kind of like- 'Cause it's all about people. It's all about people. Exactly. At the end of the day, it's all about people. It's all about culture.
It's all about moments, which is a very like football managery thing to say. Like, oh, it's all about mo- the game's about moments. But it really is. Yeah. Like I think,
um, on my sister's, sister's podcast, and I'm gonna shout out for that, Counter Pressed, um, one of her co-presenters had a great story about watching the Algerian boxer, Aman- Oh yeah, Aman Khalifi. Right...
uh, Aman Khalifi- Yeah... win gold in a brasserie in Paris, and the bartender was Algerian, and he burst into tears and he bought everyone a round of drinks. And she was like, "That is how I'll remember Paris 2024."
Yeah. And she's absolutely right and that is the same goes for football. Like it's all, you know, for all the Man City fans out there, Man City men's fans or whatever, like,
you know, you may have won a lot of trophies, but like I wanna hear about the moments because- Yeah... all those w- like winning doesn't really mean anything unless it like- There's...
Nobody talks about that night in Istanbul. They talk about Agüero, right? Yeah. Well, I mean, the night. Well, I, I, I guess not in Istanbul. I'm thinking of Liverpool 2019. No, I figured that. Exactly. See? Exactly.
Did, did... I, I didn't even know Man City. Did they win the Champions League in Istanbul? That was the Champions League, uh, yeah, a year ago was in Istanbul. Was in Istanbul. Wow, how funny. Against Inter Milan.
See, I didn't even know that because it didn't- It wasn't a very good game, honestly... it didn't really mean anything. Exactly. No. And so like,
you know, win or lose, and obviously like the Algerian, uh, Aman Khalifi maybe isn't a great example because she won gold, although obviously like that is one of the reasons we love sport. Yeah. But even like
the, the bad games or the... It's about- Well, my, my favorite moment from last season- Yeah... right, with Arsenal was- Arsenal Men. Yeah. Oh, it was Arsenal Men.
Was, uh, uh, watching the away game at Luton and like Declan Rice's like last minute header to win it and it's like, oh. Yeah, yeah. At Luton, like a team that then got relegated, right?
But it's like- Right, you should be winning that game... it was so thrilling. Yeah. But it was just like the emotion and like it was a seven-goal game and like last minute, you know, it's like two months into the season.
I'm w- I was watching it in this room actually like- And the fact that it is- Yeah... a game that you should win- Yes... like makes the jeopardy. It's like wow, imagine if we couldn't even beat Luton. Luton, yeah.
So beating them, like it's through the narrative of that game it becomes like heightened. Yeah. Um, okay, wait. Uh- I wanna bring us back on track to, to newsletters though before we- Okay...
'cause again this is a Sensible- We're getting there... Way newsletter. That's, uh, I like to get off track, but we should, you know, touch base for a moment. Um, so what you did at The Striker, you did a lot of things.
You, you did too many things. But, uh- I did too many things... one of your main things was that you did do the newsletter there. So I don't think, I don't know if you like- From The Press Box- Uh-...
was the official name. On The Press Box? From The Press Box. Oh, From The Press Box. Excuse me. Yeah. We workshop that name for quite a long time. Yeah.
Tell me about it and like what you learned about the medium of newsletter 'cause now you a- I mean, that's why I had you on here is you write a newsletter called Squad Depth. We'll get back into that in a second.
But tell me about newslettering at The Striker and what you learned about kind of the medium there.
You know, it's funny because looking back, the newslettering at The Striker was actually like one of the most successful things we had- [laughs]...
which I think says something about the media landscape in general, um, that it's quite hard to run a website, but running a newsletter is a little bit easier- It is... and you get more wins.
Um, we had like a 55% open rate and 6,000 recipients- Nice... um, which was really solid. And like I said, the site itself had a lot of ups and downs,
but I learned a lot about those sort of things like audience, um, what you put at the top, how you write the copy, what people wanna see, what actually connects. I think timing was a huge thing.
We spent so long A/B testing and talking about when to drop the newsletter and I think newsletters are funny because I think sometimes the most success is when you're really consistent and people know what they're being served.
Mm-hmm.In terms of the type of delivery, the timing of delivery, the quantity of the delivery, stuff like that.
And then I think there are other times where, like, the most success we had is when a story was breaking and we could package it really cleanly and deliver the key information in a insightful way.
And the context was out of our control because... Sorry, the timing was out of our control- Mm-hmm... but that's when things really hit, right?
Like, you just had a final, here's everything you need to know from what, like, what's important about the final, and there's a big breaking news story. And so we kind of-- I think we, we
oscillated between the idea of, like, really regular, like, Monday morning breakdown
stuff to more put the whole story in a body of an email and get it out as quick as possible so people can use this as, like, their way of digesting key information.
So it was, it was really edu- I think that, that honestly was really educational. Yeah. And prior to that, you know what? I'd done a lot of writing on websites. I'd done podcasting.
I really didn't actually have much newsletter experience before I went to The Striker, and that-- and I-- they just handed that to me. Yeah.
I actually don't even remember if when I interviewed for the job that was even on... Which was also the vibe. Like, The Striker was so cow- it was just like cowboy industry. Yeah. City of your pants.
C- yeah, city of your pants. Everyone was just like, "Uh, does anyone wanna do this?" And I was like, "Yeah, I'll do a newsletter." [laughs] And it ended up, like I said, actually being one of the really good things, um,
on a site that otherwise had a lot of struggles. Mm-hmm. Um, so yeah, that's maybe a little bit about that. Yeah. If there's anything you missed- No, that was, that was great. No, thank you.
I think one thing too that I-- hadn't really occurred to me until you were saying there with, like, the timing and, like- Mm... you know, if there's a breaking story, you wanna get it out.
I'm thinking of my own newsletter consumption habits, and, like- Mm... I obviously subscribe to so many, m-many of which I don't read just 'cause I, like, you know, am monitoring people I might wanna interview and such.
Um, but I think any, like, longer-- Like, Creative Spotlight is, you know, it's 2,000 words in there usually in total.
Um, so any longer newsletter like that, like, if I'm actually gonna read it, I probably-- I might open it and, like, quickly look at it, but then I'll, like, mark unread and I'll come back, like- You're like, "I've gotta come back to this."
Yeah. Yeah. At lunchtime or, like, after work or, like, the next morning before work or something like that.
Um, which I think is, I don't know, something I need to keep in mind too of the way, like, people consume this newsletter where it's like, you know, I'll, I'll look at the open rates, like, you know, within the first few hours, uh, and then, like, you know, a few days later.
But really it's like, it takes a week for, you know, the open, kind of the stats to settle on a newsletter. Mm-hmm. Um, okay. Let, let's, let's talk about Squad Depth, though. Let's talk about your newsletter. Okay.
So you started it, uh, you... Okay, you false started it. I false started it. Yeah. Legend. Yeah, yeah. Um, you made a Sub Stack. Whatever.
You didn't really post anything, uh, until, you know, you had, like, an intro note November 2022, and then kinda really starts with, uh, the first episode of the podcast in April 2023.
Uh, but then the newsletter didn't- Mm... really start till July 2023. Um- Correct... but at this point you'd already been working in soccer media, in football media for about two years. So what- Mm-hmm...
why, why did you start this? What did you need to get out of this that you weren't getting out of, like, the three other football media jobs you already had? [laughs] Good question. I, again, I, I think I'd...
I think I was feeling burnt out at The Striker. My role there as things got harder. The Striker, you know, for-- I feel like, you know, The Striker history podcast could be a separate podcast. Yeah.
[laughs] But, uh, The Striker ended up dissolving in August 2023. So the wri-writing was on the wall a little bit- Yeah...
I'd say was part of the reason why I was like, "Okay, I gotta have my own thing because I'm putting all my eggs on this website." The number was on the touchline. [laughs] Exactly.
It was like we are in stoppage time at this point. Yeah. [laughs] And I'd committed-- And me and my sister had made a commitment- Yeah... um, to do the Australia Women's World Cup to- Mm... you know.
And so, like- I would love to know about that later... even though we, even though we were working for, like, we didn't actually collaborate on any work- Yeah...
while we were out there, but we stayed together and we, like, experienced the tournament together. But we, we kind of always made that promise to ourselves. Um, so I knew I wanted to do that.
I actually told The Striker, I was like, "I'm gonna go there. We can do coverage." And at the time it was like, "Yes, we're gonna cover the Women's World Cup." The website ended up imploding, so. Right, right then.
That did happen. Right when it started. Right when it started. But I had-- I luckily, a, a few things went my way that I actually managed to, like, break even on that tournament- Mm... and get enough freelance gigs.
So it kind of ended up being okay, um, if the listener was worried about me. Yeah. I- Uh, spending, like, $2,500 to go down under, um, for a few weeks. So yeah.
So when- I felt like I needed, for a while, even before the writing was on the wall with Striker, I felt like I wanted my own brand. Yeah. Because I was a contractor.
The Striker amazingly basically, like, didn't own my voice. So I could...
Like, when we, when I signed an agreement to work for them, the only thing they required is that I didn't talk about, like, Texas women's soccer- Mm... anywhere else. Okay.
That was kinda, like, the limit, 'cause when they first started they were, like, very regional and they were like, "We really wanna do this regional thing, but we obviously can't pay you enough or employ you as an employee, so you're kind of, like, freelance."
So I was able to do other stuff. So I had already started writing a bit for The Equalizer, a, a women's soccer website. It's really great out there. Um, and Soccer America.
I kind of had started doing other stuff talking about either the National Women's Soccer League or the Women's Super League in England or the, or national, international soccer.
Like, I'd basically already started branching out. Yeah. But I just felt like there were more stories to be told- Mm... and I wanted to do things my way and just say, "Hey, I really like this person.
I wanna talk to them. Let's get out there." Yeah. Like, I think it just came back to that. Um- So wait, so you've been, you've been doing the newsletter proper now for about a year.
Um, and I was trying to figure out, like- Yeah, just I think... 'Cause the first one was right before the Women's World Cup, so it's basically just gone a year. It's a year, yeah. Well, congratulations, first of all.
Thank you. Yeah. Yeah. Um, that, you know, not easy to keep it going for a year. How, how often are you writing? Like, I was looking at it and it seems like most- Mm...
weeks, most, like, you're not doing a piece every week, but then some weeks it's, like, three or four. Um, so what is, like- Yeah...
the actual out- written output on this newsletter?That's, yeah, I should have got more numbers on that actually for you. But, um, weekly... So the way I kind of designed it, and, and, and, you know,
it's not perfect or it's not the finished article. It's very much still a work in progress. Yes. But the way I designed it- I can hear it... was there would be like one very regular, always free weekly column. Mm-hmm.
Or like roundup sort of thing, and then there would be like preferably more researched or more, um, in-depth pieces that would be just for subscribers. Mm-hmm. Paid subscribers. Yeah.
Right now I don't feel like I have enough paid subscribers to limit the eyes I want on stuff, and like when stuff gets shared it feels really good. Yeah. So it's kind of more of a support model right now. Um,
but in an ideal world it would be like two articles a week or two to three, one of those being free. Yeah. Um, so almost like a 50/50 model, and trying to give people that support more
in-depth, more journalism that takes more time. Because at the end of the day, like if we're just... That's basically like what you're paying for is like time. Yeah.
Um, whereas the other thing would be more like you're getting more facts that are really helpful to be packaged in a way, but like at the end of the day you could probably find...
And you're getting my personality, but you could find them somewhere else. Whereas- Yeah...
more of the premium stuff it's like I've tracked down this story and I found this person and I've sat down- But you do do so much original reporting, um, which is impressive. You get...
It seems like you- I mean, it's almost-... are able to access people. Yeah. I mean, I'd say like 85% of it or something. Yeah. Like, it's...
Or maybe not as much as that because I, I have during the se- the women's American season I have been putting out like a weekly column that is just like roundup. Yeah.
But, um, yeah, apart from that- Typical classic newsletter. Yeah. Kind of classic newslett- So I've, I've definitely... The classic newsletter I think is like it's a good exercise, and that's why I think I do it.
But I think I lean more towards the other stuff. Yeah. But then, like I said, with only 25 paid subscribers right now, I don't necessarily feel- But wait, what about the, what about the other stats?
How about like, um, so total subscribers, open rate, click rate? Like, what are we, what are we dealing with? 490, which is interesting because for those that don't know, I'm on Ghost- Mm-hmm...
which you have to upgrade at 500. So I'm kind of in like a bit of a, a midpoint where I'm like, do I get- You might unsubscribe a couple people if they, if it goes [laughs]
Well, people might be unsubscribing because my, you know, also like we're jumping around here. Yeah. But I did start a new job working for the, yeah, The Athletic Podcast- Mm-hmm... in May, June. So I have, I think my...
That has like... And obviously the, I didn't really do the Olympics on Squad Depth. So my kind of input has wavered a little bit the last couple of months.
Oh, because I mean, especially the last month you were probably constantly- Oh, the Olympics... producing this podcast for the Olympics. Yeah. The last two and a half weeks, three weeks have been nuts. Yeah.
So yeah, like if any sub- Squad Depth subscribers are listening to this, like I will be back with a vengeance. Um, it has been a little shallow- Mm-hmm... the last couple weeks. Uh- The man has a life, you know?
You give him a break. The man has a life. So I think I'm in a fine... I mean, for starting a newsletter a year ago and just, like I said, one, my goal is to want to have a space to tell stories. Mm-hmm.
And I feel really good about that. So I'm not like that worried about the other stuff. Yeah. And the, the open rate's really good. Open rate's at like 61%. Which is quite good, yeah. Yeah.
So wait, so- Which is, I think is really solid... so, so monetizing, this is a business. Like, uh, the way you're talking about it right now, it's like it can't be- It's not a business. Yeah, it's not a business.
[laughs] You've got, you know, you're making like, I don't know, a like, uh, maybe 500 or- 300 bucks a year. Yeah, th- exactly. Yeah. 300 bucks a year. 400, yeah, something like that. Not, not, not a ton.
Um, but back at the beginning we were talking about, you know, football media sponsorships, you know- Mm-hmm... just like, you know, sponsored on a jersey, et cetera. Um, question is like what...
Do you have ambitions of like actually turning this into a business, turning this into more of a focus in your time? Um, do you think about that? Or is it more of a- I think a-... creative outlet? Sorry to interrupt you.
I think, no, no, no, no, I, you didn't really interrupt me at all. I, I think it's more the creative outlet right now. Um,
but mostly because I think, and this is another thing people need to understand about freelancers, everything you just spoke about is also like a job. [laughs] Yeah.
Like securing advertisers, getting adver- you know, like taking meetings with adver- Mm-hmm. Like ev- time is everything, and so I just don't think I have the time right now to add business acumen- Yeah... to my new...
Like I'd almost be more interested in someone coming to me and being like, "I want to try and make your newsletter into a business," 'cause I don't think I have the time or potentially the skills- Yeah...
at this moment to do so. Or at least- Well, it, it strikes me that maybe one of the best opportunities for you would be syndication with a larger publication. Yeah, or just... Yeah. Yeah. Or just someone to pay me.
[laughs] Yeah. Somebody to, you know, to just- Which is basically what I do. Right, right. [laughs] I basically like shout on the sites- Yeah... like stand outside my house and say, "Does anyone wanna publish this?
Could you give me-" Well, so actually this is- "... you know, $100, $25?"
You don't make much money from it, but I think a lot of people I talk to, journalists especially, it seems like the point of their newsletter isn't necessarily to like generate a lot of revenue for them.
Even, you know, even when it does- Mm-hmm... you know, the, it's like that's nice. Maybe it pays for their rent and not- nothing else. Um, but I think the greater purpose is like as a calling card, right?
To get you more jobs in, you know, freelancing and in other, other worlds, right? Yes. And I think that's another thing, you know, people out there who are either already in the industry or interested in getting in,
being in con- having more of a digital, active, alive, effervescent resume- Yeah... is gonna get you necessarily further than like a really good resume.
Like, I feel like when I've had jobs and I've been able to send them pieces from Squad Depth or the Squad Depth pod- podcast, which is mostly like my most recent credits,
I, I've always had good responses or I think that tells people more about what they're gonna get if they work with me than like what is this- Yeah... on my resume. So I definitely believe in that.
Like, I think it is good to have a calling card. Um, I do all the design myself. I, you know, I curate the si- I think like it shows-I think everything is personality.
I was talking about this with someone the other day, um, about headshots. Uh, yeah. And I was like, I feel like...
And this is no shade to someone that just has like a totally basic headshot because, like, again, we've all just trying to get through the day My, mine is quite bad right now. I have to admit.
We're all just trying to get a job. But, like, when you see someone that has like a really sick headshot, I'm like, they just thought about how cool, like, a photo can be. And I love art, I love photography, and I think
going back to this idea of a calling card, like, I, I think about Squad Depth or stuff that, like, I'm in control of very holistically. Mm-hmm.
Like, everything represents you, and so you want everything to look really good. Yeah. Um, obviously there's typos. I'm sorry for the typos in advance. Ah. But, um,
yes, I think, like, that idea of it being a calling card or representing you or showing little intentional touches of what journalism can be like, what telling stories can be like, I think, like, I take that very seriously.
Yeah. Which... And we r- we, uh, respect you for it and value you for it. [laughs] We care about people, too. Um, okay, I'm curious what a... The way this fits into your life.
We keep kind of talking about your life as a freelancer and how, like, you're able to do this because you live in, in New Orleans where it's, like, more affordable and et cetera.
And so my understanding is, like, a week in your life is quite crowded 'cause you're producing the podcast- Mm-hmm... you're doing this. Mm-hmm. You're a family man. Um- Mm-hmm...
you, I think, work- I still work part-time in the coffee shop. Yeah. Two shifts a week. Two days a week. Yeah. Yeah. Um, look at this. I listen to your podcast. I know this.
Um, and you have, like, two or three outlets you freelance for right now. Yeah. And then you also, uh, are a researcher for, what, Sports Interactive, the company that makes Football Manager.
So that's, like, six, seven things. I basically have, like, six, seven jobs, yeah. Yeah. So what is, like, a... I don't know. Like, in...
We don't have to go through every detail, but, like, how does this fit into your life? Or, like, what... How, how do you make this work in, in, in a week in your life, like, finding the time to do this?
I th- I don't sleep that much. [laughs] Like, last night is a great example. I was up till midnight doing database work for Sports Interactive. Mm-hmm. Um, because I have a two-year-old son- Yeah...
and I'm often looking after him between, you know, after nap till dinner time. With my wife, we'll trade on and off, or one of us will do...
cook food and, you know, clean the house, or one of us will look after him, or vice versa.
And then, so when he goes down at, you know, 7:30, 8:00, we sort of, like, reset the house and get ready for tomorrow, and then I'll often try and do some writing or any... insert any of those jobs. Yeah.
[laughs] Write a column for Soccer America or do database work or, um. Obviously, the two days a week I'm at the coffee shop, I... Those are non-writing days, basically. Mm-hmm. Um,
but yeah, I mean, I just don't sleep a lot. I try and squeeze everything in. I try to be efficient with time.
You know, I think once you have a kid, you're like, "When I'm not looking after the child, I've got to be, like, really writing." And I think that has helped, actually.
I think there are some things that go by the wayside. Like Squad Depth during the Olympics is a great- Yeah. Oh, yeah... like exa- example.
Like, we were doing an Olympics show every two, three days for The Athletic, so, like, that's, you know, an e-... That fills all my writing time.
So I basically didn't write anything during the Olympics 'cause I just couldn't do it, and that's- How much time, actually... Sorry. How much time does the, um, your work on The Athletic take from you? Or, like- Uh...
not take from you, but how much time do you spend producing, like, a podcast episode or whatever? I'd say it's, like, a full eight hours or 10 hours, but it's kind of, like, split across two days. Wow. What does...
W- so, um, what does that entail? Like, what... I mean, that's, like, your... It's a, it's a serious podcast for, like- Yeah... a large international publication. What goes into producing- Amazing people...
podcasts at that scale? Yeah. I think it's been a real step up, actually, because I'm so used to doing everything myself or having my editorial oversight. Mm-hmm.
And I think one of the coolest things about doing the pod full time, which you, everyone should listen to full time with Meg Lenahan, is working with the other people. Yeah.
Like, it's actually been a great lesson for me to be like, "Yes, Theo, you can take your voice seriously and be very intentional about all your little things," but actually, like, you can also be a cog in a really- Yeah...
well-oiled machine, and I really love that.
I actually think, like, what I like about The Athletic is I get there, and I'm, like, bouncing off other people, and they're pushing back, or they're saying, "Why don't you try this?" And I'm like, "Yes, yes, yes, yes."
You get to create something that's more than the sum of its parts. Exactly. And that's been really, really cool.
It's amazing to also see, like, how, when you are professional about it, and it has been a step up for me in that respect 'cause I'm quite
DIY, and that was, like, part of my upbringing in, in, like, music and record labels and tour- going on tours with bands and stuff. It is cool to be much more pro about stuff.
So, like, we script much more of this podcast, or we, like, dictate where we wanna go. We're very tight on time. You know, no episode goes longer than 50 minutes.
Um, we, like, try and schedule guests out weeks in advance. We have a hour-long production meeting every week before we even put the red l- uh, red l- uh, red light, recording light on. Yeah.
So it's just, like, all these little things that, you know, we're in a lot more communication than maybe, like, me and my sister, where we basically just, like, call each other- Yeah... and just, like, natter.
Well, wait. Okay, so one thing with that, too.
Like, I, like I said, I listened to a couple episodes of that, of, uh, of that pod and then also of the Squad Depth pod, which we haven't really talked much about the Squad Depth pod, but, like- Mm...
I would, I would sum it up by saying it's like, you know, it's, it's really, it's kind of like this podcast. You, you know, it's well-researched interviews. Yeah. No, it's true. Yeah. Um, but I've noticed a...
I mean, obviously listening to, you know, the very first episode of Relatively Football up to the latest episode of Squad Depth, that's, like, a three-year difference, um, four-year, you know, three-and-a-half-year difference or so.
Um, just the audio quality and your- Yeah... your voice and, like, you know, like, now listening to the Squad Depth podcast, like, it's very...
Like, your, your intros and outros, you know, you're really good control of your voice and talking like this, and I feel like I'm in an armchair by a fire. Mm.
Um, uh, and it's impressive as somebody who is, you know, talking on a mic right now, and I've only been podcasting since, uh-February, I think was when we put the first episode of this out.
Um, it's hard, and I'm still getting better. So I'm curious like how you... I could use some advice myself. How do, how do you- [laughs] What, what... How do you do on mic podcasting well?
How do, how have you gotten better at it actively? Breathe. [laughs] Think about what you're gonna say, and try and be yourself. I think
I love to talk, and when the adrenaline and the nervousness of a recorded anything, podcast, video, whatever, comes on, it's very easy just to lose yourself. Mm-hmm.
And I think over time, I listen-- I, I, I know this isn't the same for everyone. Plenty of people I work with hate to listen to them- themselves back. But when I listen to myself back, I listen to every show. Mm-hmm.
I, like, take, I take notes and I'm like, you know- Well, you produce them, you have to. I have to. [laughs] Exactly. [laughs] But even, even my own-- Yeah. Yeah. Even my, even my own shows.
People, some people I work with are just like, "Once the show's canned, y- they're out." Mm-hmm. I can't do that. I have to take notes. I have to sort of think about, ooh, did, was I talking too fast?
Did I not give enough context when I said, you know, this person's name? Did I rush what I was trying to say? Did I say something that felt too repetitive or too generic? Like I, I'm very analytical
of what I'm saying and how I'm saying it, and I think that has made me, over time, like you said, really refine how I wanna be come across as a talker.
And that doesn't mean there's not times where I don't get carried away. Um, and also, I think what's really I love about the podcast medium is getting carried away is great too. Yeah. We can't be an armchair.
You need both. We can't-- You need both. Exactly. And so I think when you listen back to what I [laughs] what I was like when I first started podcasting- [laughs]... I think it was, it was real all guns blazing- Yeah...
shot out of a barrel stuff. And I like to get there too, but I've definitely grown to, like, relax and I al- often will have a sticky note on my laptop when I'm recording that just says like, "Slow down and breathe."
Breathe. Yeah. Breathe. I think it's, like, people, it's just when we get nervous, it's just so common to, yeah, lose yourself- Well-... I think... yeah, just now- It's sometimes as simple as that...
you know, for the listener, if you, you know, click that 15-second back thing about three or four times, when you started this monologue, uh, and you were, you were like, "Breathe," and you were saying the thing, like you were doing it, you were actively doing it.
Yeah. You gotta, you gotta- Um, it's a lot of discipline... yeah, you gotta live it. I- it's, it's-- I mean, I'm somebody who in life generally, I talk very fast and I, like, I don't think- Yeah, me too...
about every word. Um, and I like talking like that. But I think, I think, I don't know, that's, that's something I, I need to work on. And people want podcasts like that too. Yeah.
I think, I think the other thing, uh, a- and going back to, like, why I do Squad Depth the way I do it is, like, I have plenty of parts of my life, like when it's 9:00 AM on a Saturday and you've got to get five cappuccinos out- Yeah...
in 30 seconds, where I am going as fast as I can. So if I have a podcast where I can do it however I want and as slowly as I want, then why not? Mm-hmm.
Um, so I think it is about balance and, like you said, my life is quite chaotic. So the podcast and its irregular rhythms, and its irreverent, eclectic mix of guests is becau- Mm...
is, is by design because, you know, I'm looking for that in a life where otherwise maybe I feel more rushed. Let that breathe for a second. Um, okay. How about kind of the art and craft of interviewing? Um, what- Mm.
I mean, I don't know. It's, it's something I think about a lot, uh, and I think it's a skill that you've gotten good at. Again, listening to the podcast. Tell me how you think about the art and craft of interviewing.
You know, it's funny. I feel like I don't [sighs] I don't worry or I'm not as, I'm not as anxious or as not, I'm not as analytical over that- Mm... as I am about maybe speech- Mm... or sound.
Like you said, I've worked harder and harder to get better sound quality because I think that can really affect a listener.
But I think in terms of the art of interview, like I think I maybe more just go with my gut and go with things that I feel like... I think research is really important. Yeah. You obviously do a fantastic job of that.
I've listened to some of your other episodes after you reached out to me, and talking with you today, I think you're, like, s- wildly well-informed, which is awesome. So research is huge.
But in terms of, like, interview style, like I, I try and maybe just feel it more in the moment. Um, I think something which is really hard in interviews, and I am guilty of this,
both as an interviewer and an interviewee, is monologuing. Mm. Like you don't-- You want it to be more back and forth, and we talk about this all the time on the FullTime podcast. Yeah.
It's just like watch out when you're, it's just you for two minutes. And I can see this is 'cause I produce it and I edit, edit, edit the audio- You see the soundbite...
you can see when one-- Yeah, you see the soundbites. You're like, "Whoa, this person had four minutes on their own. Like, what the hell happened?" Yeah. Um, and it could be an incredible four-minute monologue.
But I think, yeah, trying to make it more of a dialogue, and I've probably spoken too much today. Ha. Although I know that is part of the format of your, your show. Yeah. Well, Producer Tom- But I-...
will, you know, cut you down where need be. Please, Producer Tom- Shout out to Tom... please get those, uh, shears out ASAP. Um, so yeah. I think I'm, I'm, I'm, I'm concerned about the dialogue. I'm concerned about...
I think when you see maybe an opening for something you could jump off on- Mm... that you didn't plan for, I always try and take that opening. But talk about the rhythm of spe- Go with my gut.
I mean, the, the way you're saying it, it's like, yeah, it's about, you know, research and prep, but, um, then it's just, it's just about- It's conversation... rhythm and speech. Yeah. Yeah, it's a conversation. Yeah.
I think it's different for shows like this. When you're... You know, I've, I've had to write some stories that I, like, didn't wanna write- Mm... because they were, like, bad vibes. Yeah.
Or you're talking to people in football about, you know, people losing their jobs. That's not fun. In those situations, like, my heart rate will go up- Yeah...
and I'll feel anxious or I'll feel like an imposter, like, "Why am I the person asking these?" But you, and you kinda just have to, like, underline- Under the flight... the question- Mm-hmm...
in front of you and, and you have to ask it and be like, "Yo, like, what happened here?" Or like, "Why is the club performing so badly?" Or like, "Why did this person lose their job?"
Like, you kind of have to be direct, and you have to- Yeah... like center yourself and not-Maybe be as, like, charming or conversational as you wanna be.
But in this type of format, like, th- I would much prefer to go with my gut. But there are definitely times you have to rein in and, and think of yourself more as, like, a,
a clear, concise journalist that has information that needs to be answered or, or, or found. So I think you also oscillate. Yeah. Um- It's a box of tricks. Yeah.
And I think it is different when you're, like, putting your, like, journalist reporter hat on. Mm-hmm.
Which, like I said, isn't necessarily my go-to, but I- I'm at a point in my career or at, at a point in my interest where, like, I do think reporting on stuff is either really important 'cause no one else is doing it, or it's something I do feel like I can do as a reporter- Mm-hmm...
as someone that has built up contacts in the game. Um, so yeah, sometimes you have to kind of, like, as an interviewer, be quite hard and- Yeah...
I mean, I was talking to someone at a club, Houston Dash I cover a lot, someone I really like as a person, who's, you know, for those that don't know, they're doing-- they're really struggling in the league and have been struggling for a couple of years and making a lot of decisions which fans and football podcasters and critics and reporters will be like, "You know, this club is a basket case," and,
you know what football fans are like, Franz. It's like- Yeah... it's all, "This manager out, this person out." And it's kind of like when you know these people, you're like, "Whoa. They're kinda people."
Like, they're people. They're people. Yeah.
But you also have to ask those questions, and I think that's something I'm still learning as well is, like, as someone that likes to be value-driven and have their heart, there's... Football is cruel.
Sport is sport at the end of the day, and you... I, I like to think, and maybe it, maybe it'll only happen in time, that like- Yeah... when you are hard on people, they'll look back and they'll be like, "That's...
You had to do what you had to do." And that, like, when the, when the lights go off and, you know, the season ends, you kind of, kind of move on. Everyone can kind of realize that they're just doing their jobs. Mm-hmm.
But there's definitely been times where, like... [laughs] I'll always remember this game when the Houston Dash, who's, who's the team I covered the most- Yeah... just 'cause of geography. They lost 5-1 at
Seattle, and Katie Lind, amazing player, amazing leader, great person, doing that press conference afterwards, and they got absolutely- [laughs]... battered 5-1. Like, it was so embarrassing.
It was like one of the worst games they'd ever played. Mm-hmm. And her answering every question with dignity, with honesty. 'Cause you basically go in, you're like, "So why did you play so bad?" Yeah. Like...
And to me, like, it's such an interesting feeling, and you do feel like the heart- And you gotta say, "The other team wanted it more," or something much more real. Yeah.
But, you know, she's, she was very honest about, like, what went wrong, what they didn't, you know- Mm... they didn't stick to this. Like,
anyway, it's conversations like that that I actually think you realize not only are people human, but you can't... You've also gotta, like, ask, ask the questions. You have to be like- Mm... "Wow, you were bad today.
Let's talk about it," because it happened, and that's our job is to, like, memorialize and, and tell the story of this game.
And you will have a game where you play good and the same thing will happen, and, and we are gonna hold the mic and say, like, "Tell me how amazing you feel right now." And I think
athletes have to look after themselves and, and watch their mental health, and I think that's a huge part of the game now.
But I also think, yeah, journalists are there to g- basically put the mic whether you like it or not and say- Face up to it... you know, face up to it. Mm.
And I've so much love and compassion and pride for the players who... I can think of so many players.
Sophie Schmidt, uh, after the Dash missed the playoffs in 2021, amazing interview talking about second-half changes and re- and really breaking it down tactically what went wrong.
And, and stuff like that really stands out 'cause I'm like, yeah, man, like, that honesty, like, we all saw the same thing.
And, and I also, you know, I think a lot about the players that don't, and I'm also like, to some extent, that's okay, too. Like, you're only human. I was in Houston
for the Women's Gold Cup, uh, in February, March, and Olivia Smith, who- Mm... absolutely is a name to watch, just signed for Liverpool, a phenomenal player. She was giving her first ever interviews ever.
She's, like, 18, 17. Oh, wow. And this tiny, shy woman in big headphones, like, coming out of the dressing room and the media part. She'd just scored, bagged a brace. Oh, nice.
I think it was her first ever goals for Canada. She played phenomenal. And the media person's like, "You've gotta go talk about your two goals." [laughs] And she just looked. She was just like...
I mean, the people on video will be able to see. Yeah. She was just like... She had these big headphones on, and she was just like, "No." You can be fearless- I'm not doing it... on the pit.
Like, I always think of, I mean, watching Arsenal- Yeah... there's, there's th- there was this press moment last year where it was two of the Gabbies, um, the, you know, big defender, uh, Gabriel Magalhães- Mm...
and, uh, this- Martinelli... uh, and Martinelli. Um, and they're talking, and Gabriel's b- he's this huge, intimidating guy, you know? And he's like a... They call him a monster on the pitch, whatever.
But they ask him a question, and he kind of, like, tugs, like, Martinelli's hand for, like, Martinelli to answer for him 'cause Martinelli is better at talking to the pr- And it's just, it's so funny the,
you know, the, how fearless they can be and how, like, intense they can be playing the game, and then it's scary to talk to people. Um- Yeah. And can you imagine being 17- Yeah [laughs]...
growing up in Toronto or wherever. Sorry, apologies, Olivia Smith, if you're not from Toronto. Playing your club football in Lisbon- Mm-hmm... and then going to Houston to represent your country.
Like, you've been all over the world in the space of a week. You're tired as hell. You've just scored this... You're tired as hell. It...
You know, you've just had the biggest moment of your career, and suddenly this strange man with terrible facial hair is [laughs] you know, has a microphone in front of you and is asking you, like, "How do you feel?"
[laughs] She's like, "I just wanna FaceTime my family- Yeah... and, like, go watch Netflix." I feel tired. I feel tired. And, and so, like, there is... This is the funny thing about being a meteor as well.
You know, like, there is kind of, like, a... There is something wrong about what we demand of players sometimes. Mm-hmm. Like I said, I think they kind of need to do it. Yeah.
And, like, I don't necessarily have the, an alternative solution. Like, this is the game, it's the game, and it's kind of, like, part of their job. It's an ecosystem. Yeah. It's an ecosystem.
But I also have an immense amount of empathy, especially for the younger players, for what they go through, um, 'cause it's not easy. And doing that for the first...
Like, Olivia Smith is gonna give amazing interviews and will... I've actually seen her give really good interviews, um, in differentUh, environment I see And I think you can see that, like, it was just amazing.
I always remember that. I always remember being there, like, for her first kinda like- Yeah... post-match in the tunnel, like this- That night in Houston.
[laughs] That, that night in Houston, um, where she'd been phenomenal and, and yeah, in 10 years- Yeah... she might be one of the best players in the world, so. Um, okay.
Any Liverpool fans watching, get, uh- Keep an eye out... get to, uh, keep an eye out. Yeah. Uh, place your bets. Um, okay, last question. Uh, maybe hopefully a little reward for any listeners who've made it to the end.
Um, I'm curious if there is any advice-- two pieces of advice, any advice you would give- Mm... to other newsletterists or, and/or to other podcasters.
I don't think I am [laughs] a successful enough newsletter person to necessarily give, to solicit advice.
What I would say, and this kinda-- I actually maybe haven't spoken about this enough, but like in- try to enjoy it.
Like, one of the reasons Squad Depth isn't a great business model or like I haven't got that far yet is because I'm honestly just, like, enjoying it. Mm-hmm. And not that you can't be businessy and, um,
enjoy it, because I think people who love what they do, you know, that, that's the dream, right? But I've basically gone-- I've on- I've-- no one is forcing me to do this, right? Yeah.
So if no one's forcing me to do it, I want to do it. So that feeling, like-- and every creator will know, like when you feel it in your gut, the, like, this feels good. And that might go away.
Like, there is a chance that like in a year there is no Squad Depth because that feeling goes away. So I think just trust, trust your feelings. Make sure you're enjoying it. Yeah.
I think when it, when you're not enjoying it, when you're not thirsty, when you're not excited,
you gotta talk to yourself and talk to your friends or talk to whoever you talk to, um, about that feeling, 'cause I think that's probably my biggest advice.
Which, like I said, is not necessarily one built on success- Yeah... or sustainability or how-- I, I don't think I have as many tips in terms of growth. Ah, that's okay.
Um, I think, I think, uh, you know, the other thing I would say is do the work. Mm. Like we, you know, we've mentioned a few times r-research, right? Don't fake it.
I think that's another thing is, especially in women's football because people maybe see it as a stepping stone or see it as a newer thing.
People know when you're not taking it seriously or they know when you're not, like, really sh-showing it the amount of care and attention and research and expertise that it deserves. Mm-hmm. So don't fake it. Yeah.
I'd say trust your gut, stay excited, don't, don't lose the light, and, uh, and don't fake it. That's great advice. All right. Well, thanks for joining us, Theo.
Uh, listener, if you're still here, you can find Theo's work at squaddepth.com. Uh, he's also a great follow on Twitter. That's @theoloydhuwes. And listen to the Full Time Podcast with Meg Lenahan. Thanks for listening.
I'll see you next week. [outro music]