WEBVTT 1 00:00:00.080 --> 00:00:11.700 I've never been a part of something that doesn't exist before. Startup energy is, is all new and mysterious to me. They approached me initially as would you be interested in talking about something besides art? 2 00:00:11.940 --> 00:00:21.600 I like to be a publication that, that matters. We selected a few journalists that, uh, we think are absolutely one of one. By the end of the year, people were like, "Oh," like, "I see why that's different. 3 00:00:21.940 --> 00:00:29.420 Man, this didn't exist, and now it does, and now I, like, really get it." Welcome back to the Creator Spotlight podcast. 4 00:00:29.550 --> 00:00:40.340 My name is Francis Zierer, and this is our 100th episode, so I just wanna say whether you have been listening for quite a long time or if this is your first time listening, thank you. I always appreciate it. 5 00:00:40.820 --> 00:00:51.460 For this one, we're doing something slightly different. I spoke to Capar, a new media company covering the people, money, ambition, power, and chaos that fuels the food world. Capar is eight people. 6 00:00:51.500 --> 00:00:59.960 I spoke to four of them for this, including co-founder Max Chen. I also spoke to the three founding journalists, Emma Orlo, Chris Crowley, and Annie Armstrong. 7 00:01:00.040 --> 00:01:10.760 Max and his team raised about two and a half million dollars to start this company, so I wanted to start by asking him to give us the pitch that he gave the investors as well as his team of founding journalists. 8 00:01:13.020 --> 00:01:21.680 I started personally just to get a bit of pattern recognition kind of kicking in, which I think was, was interesting and maybe unique, but maybe not, or maybe just a tiny bit early. 9 00:01:21.900 --> 00:01:35.890 Um, and it was that on the consumer side, I just felt like there wasn't a singular brand, like, consistently telling, like, great, great stories around the industry of food and restaurants and hospitality. 10 00:01:36.020 --> 00:01:48.660 Um, I felt like I was... It would pop up, you know, certainly in New York and the Times, like, you know, great stories there, um, you know, from time to time, but n- but not just, like, total dedication to, to the space. 11 00:01:49.180 --> 00:02:00.000 And, and instead I was, I was finding I was just reading a lot of criticism and reviews and, um, service... and really service journalism about, you know, more, more of a utility, like, how... 12 00:02:00.040 --> 00:02:06.100 you know, where to, where to get the best, you know, ramen in your neighborhood or something like that. And so it's like, okay, like, that's sort of interesting. 13 00:02:06.160 --> 00:02:20.360 And that-- and the pattern recognition kind of reminded me of, of, um, sports media i- in kind of 2016, '17 when, when, when Athletic was getting going, where, like, uh, there was sort of this... 14 00:02:20.520 --> 00:02:28.580 I feel like sports media had devolved a bit into a lot of lists and rankings to chase the SEO, you know, drip, y- you know, and, like, just feed that machine. 15 00:02:28.600 --> 00:02:40.400 And, and again, like, the capital J journalism and the smart storytelling, you know, in the space just, just wasn't r- it wasn't, again, wasn't registering on-- for search. And so media companies were going away from it. 16 00:02:40.440 --> 00:02:58.800 And so much of it, I think, in today's world, you know, at least before Google kind of changed the whole game of optimization, was, like, everything in food media for so long has been best this, you know, very declarative statements that are friendly to SEO, um, 17 00:02:59.820 --> 00:03:01.940 listicles, restaurant reviews. 18 00:03:02.640 --> 00:03:21.299 Um, and with so much of the optimization of the content, I think we really lost sight of what makes an interesting story and what readers actually want to read and will get readers to come to your website in, um, a deeper way than just finding it through search. 19 00:03:21.420 --> 00:03:36.720 Um, and their whole idea was, like, do none of the listicles, none of the reviews. Um, only do, you know, in-depth reporting, um, New York first, but, like, with a wider lens, um, on the business side of restaurants. 20 00:03:37.420 --> 00:03:48.500 And it was really appealing to me as someone who was really kind of stuck in the doldrums of that, that world at the end. So Max sees this gap in the market for food media. 21 00:03:48.560 --> 00:04:01.120 He has this very specific audience in mind, not casual diners, but prosumers, people obsessed enough with restaurants to want to understand the stories behind them, the power, the ambition, the money, all that. 22 00:04:03.480 --> 00:04:19.540 If we are speaking to the industry in the right way and, and covering the industry independently and fairly and giving, giving it, it space in, in, in new ways, I really think there is a class of, uh, non-industry professional- Mm-hmm... 23 00:04:19.790 --> 00:04:28.909 that, you know, dines for sport, you know, so to speak, that will just find this absolutely fascinating. And it-- the knowledge base will-- 24 00:04:30.020 --> 00:04:41.400 they'll gain will-- they'll be able to leverage to give them greater intimacy with the places they go and eat at. At the end of the day, it's, it's, it's not about the food, [laughs] you know, in ways. 25 00:04:41.460 --> 00:04:48.140 I mean, it's about the food too certainly, but- Food's the vehicle... the food's the, the food's the B-roll- Mm-hmm... is, you know, kind of the way we think about it. 26 00:04:48.260 --> 00:04:58.800 And, and rather it's the business, you know, it's the art, you know, it's the, the media, uh, uh, um, media on food media, which is sort of a really interesting category to think about. 27 00:04:58.860 --> 00:05:10.300 Maybe it's bigger than media on media, you know, even in a funny way. Um, uh, you know, r- the real estate, I mean, inherently, like, maybe this industry is a real-- you know, the real estate's so, so important. 28 00:05:11.080 --> 00:05:16.160 So Annie was at Artnet for four years. She wrote Wet Paint gossip column, very popular in the art world. 29 00:05:16.460 --> 00:05:24.670 She never covered food explicitly, so I asked her the differences and similarities between the industries and the way she can cover these industries. 30 00:05:25.300 --> 00:05:42.340 I think that the restaurant industry has a really different relationship with power than art does. Mm. Art really wants to see itself as exclusive and rarefied and, um, like, tough and, uh, like, just for a few people. 31 00:05:42.480 --> 00:05:49.680 Like, uh, there's probably a lot of our people that would be upset with hearing me say that, but I think it's- That's okay. News does make you upset... objectively true. [laughs] Yeah. 32 00:05:49.820 --> 00:05:58.570 And, um, I think that the restaurant industry sees itself as more for the people, and it often is because, like, you-- like, anyone can... I mean, 33 00:05:59.700 --> 00:06:04.760 it's-- there's a lot that goes with saying this, but, like, anyone can make a reservation online. 34 00:06:04.840 --> 00:06:23.160 Whether you can afford the food is a different topic, but there is, like, this lower barrier to entry.Um, so I think that that has been a bit of an adjustment to me, like, with how people in the food industry revere the very powerful is quite different than how people in the art industry revere the very powerful. 35 00:06:24.260 --> 00:06:34.070 Does that make sense? Say more. Yeah, no, it does. But yeah, yeah, say more. Um, I mean, like, the, the perfect person to look at this about is Larry Gagosian. Like, I think that people in the art world love him. 36 00:06:34.150 --> 00:06:45.410 You are, um, an art handler earning 20 bucks an hour, and you still think that that guy is really cool. I fantasize about being him one day. 37 00:06:45.450 --> 00:06:57.550 He's doing good things for the art industry by making us look so exclusive, and, like, high-flying, and billionaire class, and I think that the equivalent to that in the food industry would not say the same thing. Like, 38 00:06:58.710 --> 00:07:13.350 I don't necessarily think that it has the same relationship between, like, a server feeling that way about, um, like, a very powerful restaurateur. Yeah. I think there's more class- There's more chips on the shoulders... 39 00:07:13.380 --> 00:07:26.410 there's more chips on the shoulders, yeah. I guess so. And I think that because art, the industry of art is so based on belief, like, it's a belief-based economy, and food is, like, pretty objective in its purpose, 40 00:07:27.450 --> 00:07:28.930 um, that changes it, too. 41 00:07:29.670 --> 00:07:55.450 So Max and his co-founder, Dan, had this thesis around food media, this gap in the market, this audience waiting to be served, went looking for a few journalists who shared that vision to launch with, to build the company with, and what they offered them was not just a typical salary, but really this tech startup type compensation model that has a salary, has these bonuses, and has equity, which is especially unusual in journalism. 42 00:07:57.110 --> 00:08:04.830 [coffee pouring] So back to the journalists, there's this compensation model here that's really interesting. You practice it at, at Puck, I believe The Athletic, too. 43 00:08:05.430 --> 00:08:12.480 Uh, but there's a base salary for the founding journalists, a bonus tied to subscription level, company level goals, and there's equity, right? Mm-hmm. 44 00:08:12.490 --> 00:08:22.370 So it's a kind of a classic, um, tech startup compensation model, right? Which is rare in journalism, but again, you've, you've, you've practiced this at a couple companies before. 45 00:08:22.990 --> 00:08:32.339 Tell me about this and why you believe in this model. Yeah, I mean, it's, it's, um, you know, I think a lot of... It, it started at The Athletic- Mm-hmm... 46 00:08:32.339 --> 00:08:41.809 in terms of, you know, base plus bonus off subscription, plus equity in the business, and The Athletic, we, you know, we were lo- we started in San... We were based in The Bay. 47 00:08:41.930 --> 00:08:53.090 We started in San Francisco, so it just was sort of the normal mode. Um, and, and we brought that to, to, um, the journalist class, which it was, it wa- it was foreign to... 48 00:08:53.150 --> 00:08:59.290 It's still, it's still n- not, not normal necessarily. Um, but it's a way to keep everyone aligned. 49 00:08:59.430 --> 00:09:10.210 You know, we've all, we've all got the same North Star in terms of the growth, the growth, um, plans and, and the same sort of incentives that, um, you know, should we accomplish, we'll, we'll all benefit from. 50 00:09:10.350 --> 00:09:17.780 Um, you know, we always talk about, uh, even when we were raising for, for Puck, like the, the barbell of media, right? 51 00:09:17.810 --> 00:09:29.390 And, you know, you sort of have the independents on one end and institutions, um, on the other, and, um, and sort of this in pla- this place in the middle where we've been building, you know, these, these brands. 52 00:09:29.930 --> 00:09:47.170 Um, um, I think you can, you can generate the best of both worlds in some capacity, where again, you're, you're, you're getting the a- as a journalist, you're getting the, the economic upside and, and an editorial freedom o- of being independent, right? 53 00:09:47.290 --> 00:09:57.030 But you're not totally by yourself and on an island, which is, you know, hard for anyone, any, any business, right? Just, just being singular and, and having to run the business, which is not your core competency, right? 54 00:09:57.450 --> 00:10:07.370 It's not the writing, and then, and then again, it's, it's, uh, you, you get some of the creature comforts that you, you'd get, um, uh, from the institutional side, right? And, um, 55 00:10:08.590 --> 00:10:18.110 y- you know, I think that's, that's really what we want, the environment we wanna foster, and then, and then again, uniting everybody with the same goals, you know? Yeah. 56 00:10:18.170 --> 00:10:30.730 Um, so we're, we're all kind of after the same, same targets. [upbeat music] You spent three hours recording a video. Now you want it to sound better, look better, and reach more people in Spanish, French, and Japanese. 57 00:10:31.130 --> 00:10:40.390 Do you re-record everything? Juggle half a dozen tools? Blow the budget on studios and contractors? ElevenLabs is the all-in-one AI voice platform that brings content to life. 58 00:10:40.430 --> 00:10:51.150 You can generate, edit, and localize studio quality audio and video in minutes, all from one place. Expressive character voices, multilingual dubbing, even immersive video content without a studio or a massive budget. 59 00:10:51.190 --> 00:10:57.990 It's why companies like Disney, Meta, and Duolingo use it, and why creators use it to scale their content globally without burning more time or money. 60 00:10:58.370 --> 00:11:12.310 Best part, you can see how powerful ElevenLabs platform is with 10,000 free monthly credits when you visit elevenlabs.io. That's elevenlabs.io. So Emma Orloff, before joining Caper, was at Eater. 61 00:11:12.870 --> 00:11:22.000 She was laid off last summer, one of a number of layoffs at Eater in recent years, and when she got laid off, a bunch of people told her to start her own newsletter. It's what you do, right? 62 00:11:22.010 --> 00:11:34.940 You get laid off, you go start your own newsletter. It's not really something she wanted to do, though. When I was laid off, people, rightfully so, um, were telling me I should start my own newsletter. Mm-hmm. 63 00:11:34.970 --> 00:11:46.210 We're, you know, talking to Beehiiv right now. Obviously, you know, there's such an explosion of independent creators in this space. And there's so many people who do that really well, and it's really exciting to me. 64 00:11:46.290 --> 00:11:55.290 But I also think we have to kind of reckon with, there are so many independent creators, we're in this moment where we're talking about, like, what does bundling look like? 65 00:11:55.370 --> 00:12:08.930 Like, how can we figure out, it is a lot of responsibility on the general consumer to expect each of them to spend five to $10 a month to, um, support their favorite creators. And so, 66 00:12:09.850 --> 00:12:23.122 uh, for me, when people are saying that, whether well-intentioned or not, like, there's a loneliness in having to build your own brand and be your own-You know, I'm, I'm a writer, but I'm not, um, you know, like a, a business leader in any sense. 67 00:12:23.162 --> 00:12:34.052 I've never had any experience doing that. And so, like, being the brand is so unfamiliar to me that, like, I really was excited about the kind of community that Caper is fostering for me- Mm... 68 00:12:34.102 --> 00:12:42.742 with Annie and Chris and our editors, who all bring varied experience in media. And so I can say, like, "Oh, do you have a source for this? Oh, do you have a source for this?" 69 00:12:42.842 --> 00:12:53.202 And we can be founding journalists creating this thing that's new together, but it's like it feels much more exciting and natural to me to be in collaboration with people than siloed. 70 00:12:53.262 --> 00:13:05.732 And I think as far as the business goes, it's just a smarter business to have three journalists and a growing number with our freelancers that people wanna support versus if each of us started our own newsletter. 71 00:13:06.602 --> 00:13:15.162 I have a lot more skin in the game. I have an awareness that, that, like, the success of the company or the health of the company, like, does actually to some degree or other depend on me. 72 00:13:15.422 --> 00:13:30.222 You feel this way, this incentive, where y- it's very im- important that you do put out this quality and this consistency because the company doesn't exist without you doing it, and you don't get to continue doing the work without doing it, if that makes sense. 73 00:13:30.562 --> 00:13:41.002 Yeah, you have to give people a reason to subscribe. Mm-hmm. And, like, the only reason for someone to subscribe is by putting out good work that they think is worth paying a little bit for. 74 00:13:41.382 --> 00:13:49.502 And, you know, there's only th- there's, there's only three of us writing, so- Yeah... it's like we're each responsible for that, like a third or so, whatever you wanna say. 75 00:13:50.102 --> 00:14:01.602 Having skin in the game is making me more competitive with, um, myself and with other publications to be the best possible, and that sounds like a line, but it really is not. Um, I think that- Well, that's the idea. 76 00:14:01.662 --> 00:14:10.722 That's why these incentive structures exist. [laughs] Yeah, yeah, totally. And, um, I mean, I think it just makes us feel like so much more of a team. 77 00:14:11.922 --> 00:14:22.032 Um, I've been in newsrooms in the past where it feels like you're competitive with each other internally, and I think that that can really muddle- Mm-hmm... 78 00:14:22.062 --> 00:14:32.612 what the overarching voice of a publication can be if everybody... if nobody's feels like they can really talk to each other about their stories or, like, um, give feedback that is constructive or even just positive. 79 00:14:33.382 --> 00:14:45.642 Um, I think that it makes for a really coherent... I think it will make for a really coherent voice that we are all rooting for each other because the rising tide will truly lift all boats. 80 00:14:46.282 --> 00:14:57.162 We also get a percentage, um, of the revenue that each of us bring in through subscribers at the end of the year. Um, I think that really changes your relationship to the work that you're doing. 81 00:14:57.202 --> 00:15:03.782 You know, like, you're not just an employee of the company, but, like, you really have skin in the game to make the company thrive. 82 00:15:04.102 --> 00:15:21.102 Um, I think, like, thinking more strategically about, you know, events, like how we position ourselves, um, as far as Caper living beyond the website, um, you know, like who are partners that make sense for us, um, you know, what are brands that we wanna align with. 83 00:15:21.162 --> 00:15:29.322 Like, certainly that was all happening in behind the scenes of companies I've worked at, and I had feelings about it, but I wasn't really in rooms where I was voicing those things. 84 00:15:29.422 --> 00:15:36.822 So, um, it's really an honor to be able to be brought into some of those conversations because, you know, like anything with journalism, it's like we wanna learn. 85 00:15:36.902 --> 00:15:45.942 I love learning about other people's jobs and, and learning new skills that I don't have. So, um, it, it's really been essential to be brought into those conversations. 86 00:15:46.022 --> 00:15:58.552 [clock ticks] So equity changes the stakes, what's at stake, the ownership for these founding journalists, and it does slightly change the way that they're approaching their work, but it doesn't change what the work is, right? 87 00:15:58.782 --> 00:16:02.882 Great reporting, great writing. That's the job regardless of the compensation model. 88 00:16:03.002 --> 00:16:12.182 So I asked them what Caper's journalism looks like in practice and how it's different from the way they've been asked to work or been able to work at their previous roles. 89 00:16:13.062 --> 00:16:20.722 [clock ticks] I think that's, that's a big part of it, just, just not sort of calling something and then abandoning it. It's sort of staying with it. 90 00:16:20.822 --> 00:16:30.792 I think that's, that's going back to this chronicling of the, the industry. Mm. I think that's... To me, that's, that's the op- that's such a big opportunity with, with food and restaurants is that it's... 91 00:16:30.802 --> 00:16:35.371 there's so much interconnectivity, actually, um, that... 92 00:16:35.542 --> 00:16:49.542 And, and, and I've experienced this now just firsthand because I've, I've been in the room with, with, you know, Emma and, and Chris and Annie, and they, they, they just have an amazing amount of innate knowledge now about the space and the characters. 93 00:16:49.642 --> 00:16:58.662 And, you know, they start talking about y- you know, a restaurant and then who came from there and who went on to start something else and then the chefs that were bu- you know, and where the money came from. 94 00:16:58.682 --> 00:17:04.222 And it's just, it's, it's an amazing, uh, thing to hear, and I'm like, "Oh, well, that's, that's really, really interesting." 95 00:17:04.262 --> 00:17:14.201 And, and it just seems like sort of, you know, business as usual for you, but for someone who's never heard that before, you're just like, "Oh my, oh my gosh," like, "this is, this is astonishing." And, um... 96 00:17:14.252 --> 00:17:20.672 And again, it does give you that, that intimacy, you know, I think that some of us are after for, with these establishments. 97 00:17:20.942 --> 00:17:27.762 So Chris Crowley spent nearly 11 years at New York Magazine, covered restaurants in this political way. It's really just city reporting, right? 98 00:17:27.802 --> 00:17:31.832 It's less about the food, more about the people behind it and these power relationships. 99 00:17:31.842 --> 00:17:44.782 For example, his third newsletter here at Caper was about these ICE raid rumors that spread around restaurants and restaurant workers on the Lower East Side recently. The, the third story I did was, um, 100 00:17:45.722 --> 00:17:59.062 about these, like, rumors that had been- Mm... rapidly going around the restaurant industry towards the end of January about ICE supposedly raiding a bunch of restaurants on the Lower East Side. 101 00:17:59.092 --> 00:18:04.022 And it got really specific. It was, like, a specific bar back at a specific bar. 102 00:18:05.122 --> 00:18:14.122 A handful of places were mentioned, and I found this out 'cause I went to go see someone, and she started telling me about it, and sh- and, and it was spreading around in this 1,000-person group chat. 103 00:18:14.222 --> 00:18:23.202 And, you know, then I immediately heard from two other people, and two days later I'm, you know, I'm hearing from someone else who's completely related to everyone else I've heard about it from. 104 00:18:23.902 --> 00:18:33.672 You know, I couldn't figure out how it startedUh, but I tried to sort of trace the development of, of the rumor and how it got around, and none of it was true, right? 105 00:18:34.102 --> 00:18:43.802 But what was interesting to me is that the, the rumors, I think, you know, it was five or six days after the second shooting in Minneapolis. You know, all of that was like... 106 00:18:44.562 --> 00:18:57.062 During that period, watching, like consuming information about Minneapolis reminded me of how I felt in 2020, where I was just, like, k- uh, unable to look away from the news and was, is consuming so much of it. 107 00:18:57.142 --> 00:19:09.202 And I think by bringing that up, I'm sort of trying to say is, like, I, I think that people were feeling, um, it was making people really, like, afraid. And, you know, um, it created a, a sense of paranoia and, you know. 108 00:19:09.242 --> 00:19:19.931 Mm-hmm. Uh, but obviously in reporting this we, we, it then led us to actual instances of, of more people that had been detained by ICE. More, sorry, I should say more restaurant employees- Yeah... 109 00:19:19.942 --> 00:19:31.102 who had been detained by ICE that hadn't been previously reported. Um, and so, you know, it was, it was sort of about, like, the, the rumors, but the rumors as a way of getting into, like, the fear. I don't know. 110 00:19:31.202 --> 00:19:37.642 To me, like, that's an important story to, to write and, and, you know, how information gets around, but also because it's sort of ex- 111 00:19:39.122 --> 00:19:47.102 these are conversations that people are having that, that you don't know about unless you're in those circles. And, um, I find it valuable to be able to try to, like, 112 00:19:49.382 --> 00:20:02.322 relay that to, to other people I know, um, to readers. [upbeat music] You spent three hours recording a video. Now you want it to sound better, look better, and reach more people in Spanish, French, and Japanese. 113 00:20:02.722 --> 00:20:11.802 Do you re-record everything? Juggle half a dozen tools? Blow the budget on studios and contractors? ElevenLabs is the all-in-one AI voice platform that brings content to life. 114 00:20:12.022 --> 00:20:22.762 You can generate, edit, and localize studio-quality audio and video in minutes, all from one place. Expressive character voices, multilingual dubbing, even immersive video content without a studio or a massive budget. 115 00:20:22.802 --> 00:20:29.532 It's why companies like Disney, Meta, and Duolingo use it, and why creators use it to scale their content globally without burning more time or money. 116 00:20:29.972 --> 00:20:38.942 Best part, you can see how powerful ElevenLabs platform is with 10,000 free monthly credits when you visit elevenlabs.io. That's elevenlabs.io. 117 00:20:41.402 --> 00:20:51.552 So for Annie and Emma, one of the big appeals of joining Capar was getting off the treadmill a little bit and producing deeper reporting, producing bigger, more ambitious features. 118 00:20:51.962 --> 00:21:06.102 For myself, just as a reporter, like, my next step in my career as I wanted it to be was I really wanted to start being more ambitious with storytelling and- Yeah... um, get out of the four to s- 400 to 600 word story 119 00:21:07.482 --> 00:21:18.111 cycle, I guess, and, like, start getting more ambitious with telling more, um, textured stories that could be longer, that I could spend more time with, and that I could get a lot more sources on. Mm-hmm. 120 00:21:18.142 --> 00:21:23.862 So that's what I'm really excited about with Capar. And I have a, I have one of those stories coming out tomorrow, I think, so I'm quite excited. 121 00:21:24.222 --> 00:21:42.162 I think for some people maybe, like, publishing a, a weekly newsletter with multiple parts to it and features is still a very fast pace, but I was coming from a, a place where sometimes, you know, you're writing five quick hit blogs in a day, then you're posting it on Instagram, and then you're sending out the newsletter yourself. 122 00:21:42.762 --> 00:21:53.742 And, you know, oh, and then there's, like, a map that has to be updated. So in my personal experience, this is a slower cadence. For some people, this is still, you know, news that you're responding to, 123 00:21:54.782 --> 00:22:04.922 um, and it's moving quickly. But, um, that's, that was part of it for me, was, like, the time to really, you know, sit with the work. I hadn't been doing a lot of features at Eater by the end of it. 124 00:22:05.042 --> 00:22:16.802 Um, and, you know, again, our, our website hasn't launched, so a lot of this is, um, [lips smack] you know, still being figured out. But that, that is what we're all aiming for. Um, I'm definitely being more, um... 125 00:22:18.002 --> 00:22:24.002 I, I have the luxury now to work a little bit more slowly- Mm... which has been great. 126 00:22:24.082 --> 00:22:44.142 Um, and I think that I'm, I'm pretty steadfast in making sure that it remains that way for me for a while because if I, if I go fast and loose like I did often with Wet Paint and which made Wet Paint exciting, um, because I'm still getting to know the industry, I think it could be, um, to my deter- I, I just don't wanna be uncareful at first. 127 00:22:44.202 --> 00:22:50.162 Hmm. Um- Like due to where you don't wanna burn bridges. Or even just, like, um, 128 00:22:51.562 --> 00:23:02.482 like as I'm learning more about how the industry, the how the restaurant industry talks about itself, I want to make sure that I'm very familiar with that dialogue before I start... 129 00:23:02.562 --> 00:23:13.232 I wouldn't even say throwing stones, but I think before I start even, like, questioning things. Um, yeah, I'm, I'm doing a lot more reading in my day than I had been before. Mm. I'm doing a lot... 130 00:23:14.192 --> 00:23:24.562 Because I need to, I'm doing a lot more research before I speak to a source, which is very refreshing and makes me feel like I'm new again. Um, and yeah, that's been nice. 131 00:23:24.582 --> 00:23:37.902 But then other than that, like, I just think that, like, uh, Wet Paint was a crash course in getting a scoop and making sure that it lands and sticks, and do it fast and do it right because, like, the deadline's now. 132 00:23:37.982 --> 00:23:49.942 Like, let's get it out. Um, I feel like I can do that quickly when I need to, but it's nice to have the luxury to not have to. So eight people, the eight-pack, as Max kept saying. 133 00:23:50.302 --> 00:23:58.902 This is a company that, as I recorded these interviews, does not have their website live yet pre-launch, so they have not really worked together that much yet. 134 00:23:59.062 --> 00:24:02.402 But I asked everybody what it's been like building this thing together. 135 00:24:03.381 --> 00:24:12.701 [typewriter sounds] And I think what is so fun about this is, like, I really truly respect Chris and Annie so much, and we all bring very different things. 136 00:24:12.832 --> 00:24:23.322 Like, you know, when I worked at Eater, I knew Chris because I had been a reader of his, but also Grub Street's owned by the same company that owns Eater. We were in the same Slack channel. We had a rapport. 137 00:24:23.942 --> 00:24:30.462 Um, he's just, he's such a strong journalist, and I feel like just so honored to be able to rely on him for feedback on things. 138 00:24:30.802 --> 00:24:37.370 And for Annie, it's like-I knew her socially and I knew her through her newsletter, but for her, obviously, this is a new beat. 139 00:24:37.890 --> 00:24:44.030 But she brings such an essential outsider voice that I think really will widen the scope of our readership. 140 00:24:44.590 --> 00:24:50.510 Um, and I think, you know, there's this idea of, like, what we care about in food media, it can be kind of insular. 141 00:24:50.910 --> 00:25:07.690 Like, you know, the certain names that kind of end up being big names is because it, it, it becomes its own, like, self-perpetuating narrative, and I think it's really helpful to have people like Annie who, you know, are asking questions about these things and, and are interested in things that maybe other people in food media wouldn't be naturally. 142 00:25:07.850 --> 00:25:14.510 So it's really just been so great to be able to bounce off of them, and I wouldn't have joined if I didn't respect the other people. 143 00:25:15.010 --> 00:25:21.810 And I think if you're trying to start something that's different, and you're trying to start something that's new, which is like I do think the idea is to... 144 00:25:22.390 --> 00:25:34.030 the idea here is to start something that's different from other food publications, right? Mm-hmm. If you're trying to do that, you know, like a- then you should be looking for, for voices that are different, that might 145 00:25:34.930 --> 00:25:43.230 have certain stories that would work for us that didn't work for other publications or whatever else, or just people that don't write about this stuff normally. Mm-hmm. Um- Like Annie. Yes. 146 00:25:43.530 --> 00:25:53.910 Oh, I'm asking them questions all the time. [laughs] I am asking them, "Who is this person? Does this person matter?" [laughs] "Who, um, what is this restaurant? Do people like it? I'm not sure." 147 00:25:54.070 --> 00:26:06.770 Um, so they have been, like, incredibly helpful in sort of helping bring me into, um, a lot of the, uh, like, I guess 102 knowledge. [laughs] Yeah. Which I came in with 101. Um- Yeah... 148 00:26:06.790 --> 00:26:16.530 but, I mean, I shouldn't knock myself so much, but they've been incredibly helpful in, um, making sure that I am not falling behind in that way. 149 00:26:17.150 --> 00:26:28.910 And yeah, I mean, like, hearing their tales from the trenches of food media reporting is fun because, um, the trenches of our media reporting are very different too, so it's nice to connect over what we've learned, our battle scars. 150 00:26:29.230 --> 00:26:38.310 So this is not the first time Max has launched a media business, but he is the CEO and co-founder here. I asked him what's keeping him up at night as he prepares to launch. 151 00:26:41.370 --> 00:26:53.950 Well, it's, you know, it's, um, driving subscription is, is tough, you know? That's, that's... Getting people to pay for, for anything is, is always gonna be a challenge. And, um, 152 00:26:54.870 --> 00:27:06.710 you know, we've, uh, built a lot, lot of funnels and have been fortunate to, to have some, uh, some great teams that, that have, you know, helped drive, like, a, a lot of paying subscribers [laughs] in, in, in media. 153 00:27:06.770 --> 00:27:15.270 But, um, that is still, uh, art and science, y- you know? And, uh, I wish I could tell you... 154 00:27:15.810 --> 00:27:22.870 I, I think I'm pretty good at looking at a story and being like, "That's gonna, you know, get people to take out their credit cards and pay for it." 155 00:27:23.410 --> 00:27:36.530 Um, but, uh, I can't, you know, [laughs] I can't predict that, you know, uh, you know, a lot of times. And, and, and so, um, you don't know, and you just have to start experimenting, and you find, you find lanes. 156 00:27:36.570 --> 00:27:44.650 And again, it's a l- it's betting a lot on, uh, on the writer voice and, and them being able to attract audience and find unique stories that no one else is doing. 157 00:27:44.690 --> 00:27:59.230 So yeah, certainly building a subscription base is, is, um, is just really, really important. That's... You get that recurring revenue, and it makes, you know, your life a lot easier. Um, you know, we... 158 00:27:59.630 --> 00:28:07.200 Advertising's gonna be important as well. Every revenues team is gonna matter here, right? [laughs] Like, so nothing is really, uh, off the table. And, um, 159 00:28:08.330 --> 00:28:23.890 uh, again, like providing a space and getting the right connectivity for advertising partners that, um, that wanna associate with this. So yeah, certainly plenty of things, um, keep me up, but I, I don't know. I, I... 160 00:28:24.360 --> 00:28:36.770 This is, this is... I, I really do relish, like, this, this early stage company building. Clearly. Like, I think I... It just sort of... I don't know. It, it just kind of a- agrees with me. 161 00:28:36.850 --> 00:28:46.790 My- it's maybe, maybe it's the risk tolerance or sort of the uncertainty that I just actually feel a little bit, uh, maybe just a little bit more comfortable in than, than s- than some, some other, you know, people. 162 00:28:46.930 --> 00:28:59.269 And, um, and so a lot to figure out certainly, but I just, you know, I think we got the right team. I really do. Yeah. Like, you know, it's like we got the right people in the room. I really... 163 00:28:59.310 --> 00:29:08.150 You know, like I said, we have that eight-pack, and we all get around a conference table, and I'm like, "Man, this is, this is really just sharp group." Everybody, like, can do so many things. 164 00:29:08.790 --> 00:29:15.310 All, all high agency, you know- Mm-hmm... low ego people that, that, that are competitive and wanna win. And, like, 165 00:29:16.550 --> 00:29:27.910 not to get, like, too sap-ioni here, but, like, that's a pretty great reward just in, like, the first few months of business- Yeah... here. And, um, and, uh, yeah, just wanna make sure I'm supporting them the right way. 166 00:29:28.270 --> 00:29:34.530 So success here for Capar is subscriptions, right? It's making money in this first year. It's being able to continue doing this. 167 00:29:34.690 --> 00:29:48.340 But I was curious for each of the people I spoke to what success means on a more personal level for them in this first year. You know, building a really a culturally relevant brand- Mm... uh, I, I think. 168 00:29:48.340 --> 00:29:56.230 I think that's- How do you measure that? Like, what, what, what will signal that for you? Um, I mean, the, the numbers will signal it- Yeah... you know, to some extent, right? 169 00:29:56.350 --> 00:30:08.610 Uh, uh, but I think being in, in the zeitgeist and, and, um, I think r- really by the end of the year, people will be like, "Oh," like, "I see why that's different." Yeah. Y- you know? Like, "That's, that's, that's... 170 00:30:08.990 --> 00:30:17.449 Yeah, it's, it's, it's i- it's, it's in food and it's restaurants, hospitality, but, um, man, this didn't exist, and now it does, and now I, like, really get it." 171 00:30:17.490 --> 00:30:28.190 Like, I kinda feel like [laughs] that's, that's sort of, uh... And again, measured that by, by certainly signups and subscription and, and the advertising partners that, that wanna be in it. 172 00:30:28.230 --> 00:30:39.120 So yeah, I think that, that... You know, have we, have we had some, you know, truly, you know, great stories- Mm-hmm... you know, come across our table? Are we, um, are we in the right rooms? 173 00:30:39.160 --> 00:30:46.890 Are we, you know, connected, you know, well? And, and, and, and, like, celebrating a lot of this industry. I, I think that's part of it too. 174 00:30:46.950 --> 00:31:00.272 Like, um-I- i- you know, we're, we, we're the new guys, you know, wanna, wanna, like, do this the right way, and, and, um, and tell stories that, you know, f- around this industry, which is a, 175 00:31:01.342 --> 00:31:04.562 you know, incredibly difficult industry to find success in. 176 00:31:04.662 --> 00:31:15.002 And, and so, um, I think that's actually very important to me as well, uh, that we're, that we're, um, you know, again, really, really just bringing to light a lot of these stories. 177 00:31:15.032 --> 00:31:23.382 And, you know, if, like, some, some of this stuff does begin to, um, hit, and we have, you know, an IP factory on our hands, I think that would be a really good, good signal. 178 00:31:24.202 --> 00:31:32.682 Um, I think I'm really in this, like, super curious mindset, where I just wanna be exploring parts of the industry that I haven't been able to before. 179 00:31:32.902 --> 00:31:42.962 I think I want Capar to grow to a platform where people really go to it because it feels like nothing else on the internet, and that people really crave that content. 180 00:31:43.182 --> 00:31:52.442 Um, so I'm really just excited to see it grow and, and for more people to really see it as, like, a major player in this food media landscape, not just kind of an up-and-comer. 181 00:31:53.542 --> 00:32:03.322 I, I would love to be a more narrative journalist. I would love to be telling more stories that are... feel like stories and aren't, like, I guess, indust- too industry specific. 182 00:32:03.372 --> 00:32:14.322 And because it's food, and because my mom in Atlanta, and then, you know, my downstairs neighbor can, like, know who I'm talking about for the first time with respect to art, [laughs] 183 00:32:14.942 --> 00:32:25.202 um, I just can reach a bigger audience and try to pull more people into my writing. Uh, yeah, I want it to matter to people beyond, like, you know, not... 184 00:32:25.302 --> 00:32:32.662 I want it to matter to, to that wider audience of people beyond just, like, those of us like me, who are, like, spend too much money on restaurants. 185 00:32:32.802 --> 00:32:40.692 The, I think, I think the restaurant industry, I always say this, I'm trying to figure out a better way to say it, but, like, it's a great lens into, like, what's happening in New York, and, and I... 186 00:32:41.432 --> 00:32:50.092 Houses of worship and, and restaurants are- Mm... really where you sort of see a neighborhood, like, changing if it is changing and so on. Um- Understand the culture- I just think-... through its stomach. 187 00:32:50.202 --> 00:32:57.582 Yeah, it's a great lens into whatever's happening with the city, and I think that there's a wider audience of people who could be interested in this stuff. 188 00:32:58.821 --> 00:33:08.722 Capar is a new media company covering the people, money, ambition, power, and chaos that fuels the food world. It launches this month. It may be live by the time you are listening to this. 189 00:33:08.982 --> 00:33:20.342 You can sign up for the newsletter now at capar.media. Thank you Max Chan, Emma Orlo, Chris Crowley, and Annie Armstrong for their time. This was our 100th episode, so here's to the next hundred. 190 00:33:20.422 --> 00:33:29.262 And if you're not subscribed to Creator Spotlight, go subscribe on whatever platform you listen to. Leave a review on Apple or Spotify if you have a minute, it really helps. 191 00:33:29.642 --> 00:33:42.982 And if you have thoughts on this episode or any other, leave a comment or email me at francis@creatorspotlight.com. I read it all. Hi there. My name's Tom. I'm the producer of the Creator Spotlight podcast. 192 00:33:43.422 --> 00:33:46.582 I've just made a playlist on our YouTube channel of our top 10 episodes. 193 00:33:46.942 --> 00:33:55.302 So whether you're new here or you've been watching and listening for a little while, check out that playlist to make sure you've seen and heard our top 10 most popular episodes. 194 00:33:55.782 --> 00:34:01.942 I'll keep the playlist updated as the top 10 changes. If you're on YouTube, just click on that box over there. That's our top 10