WEBVTT 1 00:00:00.080 --> 00:00:13.490 There's are over 70,000 subscribers right now, correct? Mm-hmm. Do you have the click rate? 22%. That's absolutely monstrous. That's huge. I've never done any advertising. It's just word of mouth. 2 00:00:13.680 --> 00:00:20.120 People like one by one forwarding it to their friends. A rare case where something is, like, so values driven. 3 00:00:20.170 --> 00:00:29.340 I don't think most people are as principled in the way they run their independent projects and products as you are. Making money was a byproduct of the project. 4 00:00:29.520 --> 00:00:34.940 Is the people in your life say that you need to do more selling, you need to do more ethically exploiting your audience? 5 00:00:35.240 --> 00:00:46.880 When people hear how big my audience is and then they hear that I don't charge to read the newsletter, they're like, "What's wrong with you?" My motto is, like, just because you can, doesn't mean you should. 6 00:00:49.100 --> 00:00:51.460 Welcome back to the Creator Spotlight podcast. 7 00:00:51.800 --> 00:01:01.960 My name is Francis Zehrer, and today we're speaking with Rachel Mead Smith, creator of Words of Mouth, a free weekly newsletter sharing jobs and other opportunities for professional and creative expansion. 8 00:01:02.680 --> 00:01:16.260 I personally have been a subscriber to this newsletter for nearly seven years, and she's been sending it for a decade, 10 years as of this January. So she sends it today to over 72,000 subscribers. 9 00:01:16.400 --> 00:01:34.120 She makes a good deal of her living from it, but she says she's never really actively tried to build it as a business, only now she's starting to do that, but it does really well, and I think the reason why is because she has such a strong value system, and that really shapes and comes across in the newsletter. 10 00:01:34.160 --> 00:01:48.700 I've really been looking forward to doing this one. I think you're gonna enjoy. Tell me what the worldview of your newsletter is. That there are ways to live in this world that can 11 00:01:49.860 --> 00:02:03.130 pay you enough money and allow you to expand, connect, and ideally do something that is good for the world and humanity. 12 00:02:03.940 --> 00:02:15.240 Basically, this myth that in order to survive under capitalism, you have to sell out, you have to, you know, upskill in the things you're not interested in. You have to work for the evil corporation. 13 00:02:15.300 --> 00:02:27.520 You have to put in time, you know, selling dog food because it's just, like, how you get experience, and it's how you learn in this world. Like, I, I do not believe that, and 14 00:02:28.720 --> 00:02:38.560 the newsletter aims to show people what's possible or, yeah, what's available, what is out there to do every day for money. Hmm. 15 00:02:38.720 --> 00:02:43.340 Um, obviously, there are other things that don't have to do as much with money, but, you know, the core of the newsletter is jobs. 16 00:02:43.420 --> 00:02:56.620 There's also calls for publication residencies, fellowships so you can, you know, further your practice, further your expansion in ways outside of your work as well, but I am a pretty practical person. 17 00:02:56.700 --> 00:03:12.320 I've always been that way in addition to being, like, a, a seeker and a dreamer- Mm.... and kind of a, like, a sy- cynical optimist. I remember when I was 12 maybe, 13, 18 00:03:13.740 --> 00:03:23.750 asking my dad... I was, like, in bed bef- like, it was at night, I was in bed. I was like, "Dad, what am I gonna do for work-" [laughs] "... when I'm a grownup?" Like, "I can't figure it out." 19 00:03:24.600 --> 00:03:41.980 I was, like, 13, and I was so worried about this, and part of me wonders if that's because I, like, didn't have a lot of role models for, like, sustainable career paths. Um, my dad's a writer. Ah. [laughs] Um, 20 00:03:43.000 --> 00:03:58.560 so I've been thinking about work and how to do... what to do with my life forever, and, um, I was at a point when I started the newsletter where I was, like, really confused, and I didn't know where to look. 21 00:03:58.620 --> 00:04:07.049 I didn't have... You know, there weren't the dedicated job boards for, like, interdisciplinary people like me who had never had the same, same job title twice- Hmm... 22 00:04:07.060 --> 00:04:17.940 who didn't have, like, a very clear-cut set of skills or a very clear-cut goal. I was like-- I actually was working somewhere where I thought when I got the job, I was like, "I'll spend the rest of my life here." 23 00:04:17.950 --> 00:04:23.960 It was one of these places with lifers. You know? Ah, yes. Like, people who worked there from, like, when they graduated college, and now they're, you know, in their 60s. 24 00:04:24.700 --> 00:04:33.000 And then it w- a year later, I was like, "I cannot be here. I'm so miserable." So I started this newsletter because I was like, "Where do I go from here?" 25 00:04:33.010 --> 00:04:36.860 [lips smack] And I want to show people that there are places to go. 26 00:04:36.920 --> 00:04:48.040 I hear all the time from people who say, "You know, I haven't found a job from the newsletter, but I've learned so much about what jobs exist, and I've learned about projects. I've learned about organizations." 27 00:04:48.080 --> 00:05:02.380 So it's really like a discovery engine. Mm-hmm. Um, you know, it's not a matchmaking service. It's not a recruiting service. It's like... It's a, it's a platform for discovery. Um- Yeah... I've increasingly tried to 28 00:05:03.720 --> 00:05:09.180 infuse the list with my values surrounding, you know, what is good work, and 29 00:05:10.320 --> 00:05:23.420 it used to be a little bit more open and flexible, and then it's like, well, if it's, like, a cool consumer brand, and the job is, like, well paid, and it looks interesting, I'll post that. 30 00:05:23.980 --> 00:05:37.780 I've posted inc- m- less and less of those, and now it's like, how can you use your talents, your energies to do things that are furthering equity, knowledge production, 31 00:05:38.740 --> 00:05:46.920 um, you know, liberate, like, all of these kind of big ideas. Well, wait, wait. Let me, let me read it. You've written this down on your website, and so I wrote it down. You say- Okay... 32 00:05:46.930 --> 00:05:52.840 "I feature hiring organizations working to create what I de- what I determine to be a net positive impact. 33 00:05:53.100 --> 00:06:06.236 Within that, I choose listings based on their capacity to support creative activity growth or daydreams, increase access to knowledge and services, break down or combat systemic oppression, preserve or support cultural production."... 34 00:06:06.356 --> 00:06:17.336 leverage design technology or the arts for people or planet over profit, expand social, political, and economic opportunity, or finally, fight forces endangering any of the above. 35 00:06:17.516 --> 00:06:38.415 And it sounds like you're saying, like, over the decade of doing this, you've sharpened your, how you define these values, and I imagine too as the, as the platform has grown, it's been easier, like, more and more hiring organizations that fit these criteria have found you and have continuously submitted jobs. 36 00:06:38.476 --> 00:06:47.636 And so the work of curating roles that fit those values has probably gotten a little easier over time in those two ways. Definitely. Yeah, definitely. 37 00:06:48.086 --> 00:06:56.306 I would say n- 92% of the jobs that are submitted to me fit within those criteria. Mm. 38 00:06:56.336 --> 00:07:03.196 Every once in a while there's one that's, like, on the cusp, and I'm kinda like, "Can't you just, like, look at the archive and know that this isn't really the place for you?" 39 00:07:03.836 --> 00:07:17.536 [laughs] But it's, it's very subjective, um, how I choose, but I do use... Those values have really, uh, helped me hone the kind of curational focus of the newsletter. Yeah. 40 00:07:17.636 --> 00:07:31.636 Uh, when you started it, I know that it was you looking for jobs, then you kept finding more and more that y- you, you didn't necessarily need to apply to, but you thought maybe your friends might be interested, and so you started sending a list around to couple friends, few dozen friends. 41 00:07:31.656 --> 00:07:43.766 When did it formally become a newsletter and not just you emailing, like, your social group? It was from the beginning. Oh. I... Yeah. It was... I, I have the email records. 42 00:07:43.896 --> 00:07:53.576 I didn't really remember this, but a few years ago, it was, like, the seven-year anniversary, and so I looked it up. And I guess I was, I was working in design, so I kinda had this, 43 00:07:54.756 --> 00:08:03.976 this, like, drive to brand and like- Mm... bring a... Yeah. Just, like, name the thing. You were working for a company that, like, helps design museum exhibits, right? Yeah, I was. Yeah. 44 00:08:04.876 --> 00:08:15.456 I had, I guess I had been looking for myself for so long and I had been finding these things, I hadn't necessarily been, like... I had probably been sending them as one-offs for, I don't know, a few months, like, 45 00:08:16.915 --> 00:08:32.336 to Kate and to Sarah and to Jodie, whatever. But then I just realized, like, this is something I can offer, and so I actually sent out an email... This is from memory. I think- [laughs]... I sent out an email to, like, 46 00:08:33.476 --> 00:08:39.616 I don't know, 50 people, and was like, "Would you be interested in getting an email every week including cool jobs?" 47 00:08:41.326 --> 00:08:51.496 S- you know, those people said yes or no, and then I think that's when I was like, "Okay, the first email's going out. It's called Words of Mouth," and those people were on the list. 48 00:08:51.976 --> 00:09:08.136 So it, it had a name from the very first week, which was, like, January 25th, 2016. It had the Words of Mouth at the top, and I had, like, a whole, you know, system and layout and everything. 49 00:09:08.205 --> 00:09:14.205 And it's changed a lot since then, but honestly not that much considering how long it's been. [laughs] So, yeah. 50 00:09:14.216 --> 00:09:25.356 I mean, I look, I look back to six years ago, the oldest one in my personal inbox, and it's, I mean, the design has changed slightly, but it's still quite simply, like, "Here are some jobs. Here's who. Here's what it is. 51 00:09:25.676 --> 00:09:32.366 Here's where it is. And here's how much it pays," if they've lis- listed it. Like, it... That's... It's quite simple [laughs] at the core. Yeah. Yeah. 52 00:09:32.416 --> 00:09:40.596 Um, okay, so you told me when we first spoke that, uh, about a week ago, that there's are over 70,000 subscribers right now, correct? Mm-hmm. 53 00:09:41.176 --> 00:09:53.466 Can you recall the flow of how this audience has grown, like when it hit 1,000 or 10,000? If there were moments where suddenly thousands of new people flocked when it hadn't been growing that much, this kind of thing? 54 00:09:53.716 --> 00:10:06.066 No. It's been really, really steady since the beginning. Mm. I've never done any advertising. There have been moments, I guess, I think in the beginning, um, you know The Creative Independent? Of course, yeah. 55 00:10:06.066 --> 00:10:17.246 That website? So I think way back- Started, by the way for the listener who doesn't know, it's a daily interview product, newsletter, uh, that originally... I think it actually is still part of Kickstarter. 56 00:10:17.456 --> 00:10:27.175 It's, like, this editorial thing that Kickstarter puts out. But it's, it's a great interview product. Uh, they publish an interview with some creative person every day. So many years ago, 57 00:10:28.115 --> 00:10:39.916 s- I think someone who was interviewed mentioned Words of Mouth. Mm. And I think that, you know, brought in a lot of people, and was kind of archived in the web search as well. Ah. 58 00:10:40.056 --> 00:10:54.286 So, like, little things like that where it just started to be kind of picked up and linked in other roundups, and then, um, like, university, like, a lot of art school university, design universities, design programs would put it into their career resources. 59 00:10:55.076 --> 00:11:07.256 So it started kind of having... It, it, like, was doing its own work out in the world, and then I just kept sending it every week. And it's really very true to its name. It's just word of mouth. 60 00:11:07.376 --> 00:11:17.326 It's been very consistent. Um, I will be honest with you right now, I do not keep really close tabs on analytics. Mm. I, even in preparation for this conversation- [laughs]... 61 00:11:17.336 --> 00:11:29.636 did not look, like, at, at trends or anything. Like, because to me, it's never, there's never been anything- It's not the point... noticeably, uh, like, awry or other, or the opposite. 62 00:11:29.676 --> 00:11:38.106 Like, it's just always been consistent, open rates consistently growing, and, and it is not the point really. Yeah. 63 00:11:38.116 --> 00:11:51.526 Like, even if my growth rate was to be cut in half, A, I don't know if I would notice, B, I would just keep sending the newsletter in the same way. So, uh, yeah, I, I'm, like- [laughs]... 64 00:11:51.576 --> 00:12:03.836 so bad at running a business in this way, but, um, it hasn't hurt me yet because it's just kind of doing its own work. Like, the people are out there sharing it. Everyone who gets this shares it with someone. 65 00:12:03.876 --> 00:12:14.264 Like, sometimes people will accidentally reply to me- I've probably told dozens of people about it honestly myselfYeah, it's just like, it's just math. It's just like systems theory, you know? 66 00:12:14.364 --> 00:12:20.354 Um, but yeah, sometimes pe- people will like forward it to me instead of forwarding it to their friend. [laughs] It's really fun. But they'll be like- [gasps]... 67 00:12:20.464 --> 00:12:30.044 I saw something on here, like check out the, you know, X role. I think it would be good for you. And I'm like, "This is how it happens." Yeah. It's just people like one by one forwarding it to their friends. 68 00:12:30.124 --> 00:12:38.964 So that's how it's gone. Hi there. My name's Tom. I'm the producer of the Creator Spotlight podcast. Just jumping in real quick to ask you to double-check that you've subscribed. 69 00:12:39.704 --> 00:12:49.654 On YouTube, about 75 to 80% of our viewers are not actually subscribed to the channel. So if you're a regular watcher, make sure you're not one of those that haven't actually tapped Subscribe yet. 70 00:12:50.044 --> 00:13:00.484 If you're new to the channel, I've just made a top 10 playlist, which has our 10 most popular videos in it. So head over to our YouTube channel, or check the description for that. That's a good place to start. 71 00:13:01.444 --> 00:13:03.384 Okay, back to the episode. 72 00:13:03.504 --> 00:13:15.084 One that I do have that you've listed on the website, and this is from when you had 65,000 subscribers, so pretty recently, is that the open rate averages around 72%, which is quite remarkable- Still does, yeah... 73 00:13:15.114 --> 00:13:25.504 for, yeah, a newsletter this size. I wonder, do you have the click rate? Because I... This is a newsletter meant to be clicked on, so I imagine it's quite, quite high. Click per unique open or, or click rate? 74 00:13:26.304 --> 00:13:37.544 Whichever one's larger, I guess. [laughs] Click per unique open is 22%. That's absolutely monstrous. That's huge. [laughs] Okay, cool. 75 00:13:37.643 --> 00:13:40.584 [laughs] Monstrous is maybe the wrong word, but no, that- that's really, that's really impressive. 76 00:13:40.684 --> 00:13:49.164 It doesn't necessarily surprise me because, again, like the purpose of this newsletter is for people to click on jobs and apply to them- Yeah, yeah... and find opportunities and click them. Um, yeah. 77 00:13:49.204 --> 00:14:00.544 That, that's, that's really good. I, I was just curious. That's amazing. It's good to have that, that feedback. Yeah. Yes. 'Cause again, I'm like, I just compare it to the week before. Yeah. So I'm like, is it stable? 78 00:14:00.554 --> 00:14:09.754 Yeah. Then I'm happy. You know? No. So- I mean, this means that people are using it to find jobs, which is, is the point. Let's, let's talk a bit about the, the business side though. 79 00:14:09.804 --> 00:14:18.024 As you said, you're, you're horrible at running a business. You, uh- [laughs]... are... You, you know, you should have taken a course on running a newsletter to, to run this better. But again, the... 80 00:14:18.344 --> 00:14:19.544 You don't necessarily need to. 81 00:14:19.764 --> 00:14:31.884 I think this is the rare case, and this is why I wanted to talk to you, is a rare case where something is like so values driven that like that is just what drives it, and everything kind of comes in the wake of that. 82 00:14:32.164 --> 00:14:40.804 I think that when you have such a consistent point of view, and you have this integrity in the way you run it, it becomes such a strong organizing principle. 83 00:14:41.024 --> 00:14:51.544 And honestly, I don't think most people are as principled in the way they run their independent media projects and products as you are, uh, to, [laughs] to be honest. But, um, yeah, okay. 84 00:14:51.844 --> 00:14:57.684 When we first spoke, you told me that people in your life, I'm gonna quote you here. You s- you said, "The people in your life say that you need to do more selling." 85 00:14:57.994 --> 00:15:06.784 And here's the real quote, "That you need to do more ethically exploiting your audience." Can you recount some of these conversations? Yeah. 86 00:15:06.904 --> 00:15:18.713 It's, um, you know, when people hear how big my audience is, and then they hear that I don't charge to read the newsletter, they're like, "What's wrong with you?" [laughs] "People should be paying a dollar a week. 87 00:15:18.764 --> 00:15:27.124 Like it's a service. It's not that hard. It's not that expensive to just give a dollar a week." Yeah. Um, that's one thing. 88 00:15:27.213 --> 00:15:32.704 Another thing is people are like, "Why don't you just put advertising in there and make a bunch of money?" 89 00:15:32.784 --> 00:15:40.274 Or, you know, "You have all this data about people," which by the way, I do not, 'cause I do not collect data other than emails and names. People can voluntarily tell me 90 00:15:41.344 --> 00:15:47.424 where they're located and what they're interested in, and that's- No survey here. Yeah. No. Um, but you know, people are like, "You have all this data. 91 00:15:47.484 --> 00:16:01.854 You could sell the emails to, you know, some organization that wants to sell them information about job hunting or whatever." Um, I guess to- You could be acquired by Indeed, et cetera... I could be- This kind of thing. 92 00:16:01.904 --> 00:16:19.744 Totally. You could, you know... "Have you ever thought about selling the newsletter?" Um, I... All of these suggestions assume that [laughs] I have like gone into this with the intent to make money. Mm-hmm. 93 00:16:19.924 --> 00:16:36.513 Making money was, uh, sort of like a byproduct of the project. I will say now I am incredibly grateful that it does make money because it has allowed me to have... I don't have a full-time job now. Yeah. 94 00:16:36.564 --> 00:16:49.894 I ran this newsletter for a long time with a full-time job, and it was very hard. And I do not have to have a full-time job now. I have a job that only I can fire myself from- [laughs]... 95 00:16:49.924 --> 00:17:01.844 which today is a huge thing as we know with like just continuous layoff season. Uh, I am so grateful that people decided that I should make money from this project. 96 00:17:02.504 --> 00:17:17.224 Um, however, I have struggled a lot with the notion that I am not taking advantage of- Hmm... the audience I have in some way. I'm not... You know, I'm a, I'm a writer and an editor also. 97 00:17:17.264 --> 00:17:26.594 Like, that's the work I do for other people. And people are like, "Why don't you write content? Why don't you..." Or like, "Curate editorial content about 98 00:17:27.744 --> 00:17:38.644 work, and about job seeking, and how to craft, you know, the perfect resumes." Like, these are not things that, A, I am particularly interested... Like, I'm actually very interested in kind of critical- Hmm... 99 00:17:38.704 --> 00:17:47.734 examinations of work, and we can talk about that. But- But less the service journalism side of that. But, yeah, like the how-tos, that stuff, I don't know. I'm not even an expert in that. Like- [laughs]... 100 00:17:47.784 --> 00:17:54.584 I'm actually pretty good at getting in... I used to be pretty good at getting interviews when I was applying for jobs, but that's just 'cause I applied for so many jobs. 101 00:17:54.644 --> 00:18:10.384 So, you know, this idea that like, because you have this audience, you should be feeding them content was really so not aligned with my like outlook on, on life, on the internet, on- Yeah... 102 00:18:10.404 --> 00:18:24.424 what needs to exist in the world. Like my mottoIs like just because you can doesn't mean you should. You know, there's so much crap out there. We do not need another voice, like, chiming in on these topics. 103 00:18:24.434 --> 00:18:39.594 Like, there are experts who can help you. You can find them. So anyway, I always just... I knew my role. I knew what I wanted my role to be, and that was providing this service for people to discover what's possible, 104 00:18:40.804 --> 00:18:56.853 and I was able to sustain that. Not only sustain it, but also sustain other parts of my life because of it without having to feed people slop or- Yeah... do work I didn't wanna do. So- Yeah... yeah. 105 00:18:56.984 --> 00:19:03.724 I'm, I've stuck to my guns and stayed in my lane, and I'm, I'm happy for that. Although it's- And, and- It- Mm... 106 00:19:03.784 --> 00:19:13.414 I just, it's, it's an interesting point right now for me because I am, I have this book coming out about job seeking, and that was my first offshoot project- Mm... 107 00:19:13.424 --> 00:19:27.744 from the newsletter outside of a newsletter format, and I'm really happy with it. I'm really excited about it, and so I am thinking more about how my work can exceed the newsletter related to, 108 00:19:29.064 --> 00:19:42.304 you know, asking what is work, what does it do to us, um, you know, all of these kind of more anthropological questions about- Mm... vocation that I'm interested in. Um, but again, none of that is money-making. 109 00:19:42.344 --> 00:19:55.784 [laughs] That's the opposite. Yeah. It's like I would like to spend, you know, a year studying, um, you know, how people, uh, train to be nurses at night. Yeah. And, you know, so anyway. 110 00:19:55.944 --> 00:20:07.074 I'm not, I do not have a, a money-making, um, instinct to... Like, that's not my, my- No... my, my ambitions are never- But-... in that direction. They're always in the other, [laughs] other direction. 111 00:20:07.114 --> 00:20:13.034 There, there are... I think, I think there's four ways it makes money, right? There's donations from submitting employers, which, uh- Mm-hmm... 112 00:20:13.124 --> 00:20:22.864 are not required, but if you choose somebody, you, you, you request, "Hey, if you'd like, here's a donation," um, link. There are donations from reader members I think through Patreon. 113 00:20:23.123 --> 00:20:30.853 There are classified ads in every newsletter, and there are occasional weekly sponsors. I don't... I feel like I don't see these in there that often. But- They're not very often... 114 00:20:30.904 --> 00:20:39.984 those are the four ways you make money, right? Yes. Those are the four ways. Um, let me think. Yeah, yeah. That's right. Well, was the... Which one came first? What was the first... 115 00:20:40.004 --> 00:20:47.084 When did you, like, first make any amount of money from doing this? Uh, the employer submissions. Hm. 116 00:20:47.384 --> 00:20:56.144 So I can't remember exactly when, but maybe from the beginning I was asking like, "Oh, hey, if you wanna give me a few bucks..." Like, maybe, I think probably once I had some established audience. 117 00:20:56.564 --> 00:21:08.214 It's like, "Hey, if you wanna give me a few bucks to post this, um, you can send it to me here." And that has become the most reliable way that I make money. Mm. 118 00:21:08.284 --> 00:21:22.044 And, um, again, it's optional, so every time an employer submits a job, which happens... There's... Again, I really should know this stat. But I- 20 times a day or... [laughs] No, no. No, no, no. 119 00:21:22.624 --> 00:21:33.264 Um, maybe like 20 a week. Okay. Yeah. Um, when they submit a job, if I want to accept it, I will say, "Great. I'm happy to post this in the newsletter. 120 00:21:33.504 --> 00:21:43.883 This is our requested donation, um, am- range, and these are, like this is my, this is how many audience me- readers I have. This is the open rate. 121 00:21:44.044 --> 00:21:56.184 The only way I can keep it free for subscribers is through donations from people like you." I do also ask for a referral bonus if people find- Mm... hire someone through the newsletter. 122 00:21:56.534 --> 00:22:10.444 I'm like, "You can also send me a referral bonus, uh, if you end up hiring." And every once in a while, almost never does that happen. Yeah. But people do pretty reliably, um, when they submit and are accepted. 123 00:22:10.484 --> 00:22:18.394 They will re- pretty reliably send me, you know, a, a bit. A- a- again, you're not, like, worrying about growth, thinking about growth. But is there a point where 124 00:22:19.344 --> 00:22:29.054 could there be too many people on the list, where it, it's almost like this is no longer... This is overwhelming for employers who are on this list- Yeah... because I'm sending them too many. Do you... 125 00:22:29.084 --> 00:22:40.594 Is that something you think about? Yes. Um, some... There have been a few times when I have this option to include your direct contact info if you're submitting directly. Mm. 126 00:22:40.644 --> 00:22:49.044 And, you know, the point is that people wanna know that there's a real human submitting the job and actively reviewing applications, so it's a signal to them for that. 127 00:22:49.264 --> 00:22:59.544 Um, but occasionally people have been like, "We got so many emails, and I'm one person, and I can't handle this." And like, "Can you please take it down?" And I'm like, "No, it's a newsletter. I can't take it down." 128 00:23:00.024 --> 00:23:03.424 [laughs] Um, that does not happen very often, but the... 129 00:23:03.524 --> 00:23:14.704 I have thought about how like, s- you know, if I were to do advertising and be like, "Subscribe to my newsletter," like, I, I just truly don't know why I would do that because I don't get donations- No... from readers. 130 00:23:15.224 --> 00:23:23.144 Wouldn't make sense for you. But also, I don't want... I, I mean, the competition is already so fierce. At this point, 131 00:23:24.204 --> 00:23:34.914 I know that if I post something on the newsletter, it's going to be incredibly fierce because I will say my readers are top-notch. They are high quality people, okay? Mm. 132 00:23:35.104 --> 00:23:41.864 I have heard this so many times from people hiring. They're like, "The applicants we got from Words of Mouth were the best." 133 00:23:42.424 --> 00:23:59.124 So I know if I post a great job there and it gets th- uh, over a thousand clicks and hundreds of people apply for it, that competition is fierce. And so yes, there can be too many people on the, on the list, but- Yeah... 134 00:23:59.224 --> 00:24:11.584 um, that's... It's like an ecosystem. Like, I feel like it has to kind of balance itself out somehow. Like, it just means I need to post more really good jobs, I think. Yeah. Uh, okay. 135 00:24:11.664 --> 00:24:22.884 Well, back to, back to the various ways that people do pay you. There's classifieds. I counted in the most recent issue as we record, February 9th, uh, there's six of them. And you charge 65 to $200. 136 00:24:23.104 --> 00:24:36.248 There was one for-Like a creativity workshop. There was one for, I think, a design agency, maybe a yoga or wellness class, one for to subscribe to a newsletter, right? So it, it, it varies. Um, are... 137 00:24:36.588 --> 00:24:49.908 And I think you have, like, around five or six per newsletter, but I'm curious about the sliding scale. Like, do people respect that, or is it kind of abused and so is the lower end? No, people do respect it. 138 00:24:50.528 --> 00:25:03.288 I will say the classifieds are really valued by folks who I think are just starting out and don't have an audience- Mm... which means they maybe don't have as much to throw at, um, other advertising opportunities. 139 00:25:03.328 --> 00:25:11.028 So the sliding scale offers them a place to just get off the ground. And, um, yeah. 140 00:25:11.248 --> 00:25:21.058 So I will say, like, it's definitely closer to s- the average payment is definitely closer to 65 than 200, but it's not because people are abusing it. Like, I kinda check in. Like, if someone... 141 00:25:21.948 --> 00:25:26.548 And because it's a sliding scale, people do feel the need to explain. Like, if they're- Mm... 142 00:25:26.568 --> 00:25:37.148 paying 65, they'll kinda tell me why, and sometimes I wish they didn't, 'cause I'm like, "You should not be buying a classified right now- [laughs]... if you can't pay your utility bills." Um- Oh, man... but yeah. 143 00:25:37.228 --> 00:25:48.328 So it's just taught me how hard it is to find places to get in front of people if, like, if you need, if you wanna advertise a service or a workshop, which so many people are doing now. 144 00:25:48.388 --> 00:25:59.008 They're hosting their own, um, workshops, like cohorts, facilitated events, all of these things, which is really cool, and, like, a lot of therapists and coaches and- Mm... 145 00:25:59.018 --> 00:26:13.828 creative consultants who just, you know, need to reach new networks for cl- uh, new to expand their clients, client base. And, um, yeah. So the newsletter has become kind of like a bulletin board for, 146 00:26:14.768 --> 00:26:27.558 for a lot of folks who just otherwise would not have access to new people. Um, I will say I am working with someone right now to kind of revamp my strategy on some of this stuff. Mm. 147 00:26:27.558 --> 00:26:42.168 And the classifieds, I do have to raise the price, because they fill up so far in advance. Um, it's... And I get a lot of- How far out are you right now? Mm, like I'm, uh, eight weeks or something. 148 00:26:42.368 --> 00:26:45.868 [laughs] Maybe s- six, six or eight, six to eight weeks. Yeah. Somewhere in there. 149 00:26:46.498 --> 00:26:54.988 And I don't like that, because people are like, "Hey, I have this workshop next week," and, or, you know, "I'm starting this class and I need to fill it up," and I don't have room for them. 150 00:26:55.028 --> 00:27:04.218 Like, I- it, it asks people to, to, like, to wait, to put things on hold, and people will change their deadlines, you know? Um, and I don't like that. 151 00:27:04.318 --> 00:27:16.438 I'd like it to be more of, like, an immediate, serving an immediate need, like what's happening right now. Um, and yeah. So f- that and just because [laughs] I have not raised my rates in so many years. Yeah. 152 00:27:16.488 --> 00:27:20.508 Um, I'm raising my rates, and I'm also... It's still gonna be... 153 00:27:20.548 --> 00:27:30.718 It's, like, a gonna be a tiered system, so instead of a sliding scale, it's gonna be, like, this amount, this amount, or this amount, and it's, like, how, helping people identify what they should pay between- Mm... 154 00:27:30.768 --> 00:27:31.808 those three amounts. 155 00:27:31.828 --> 00:27:43.248 Will you then have, like, also tiers of, let's say, timeliness where maybe it is, like, I'm always gonna reserve some where here's the thing that's next week, and then there's gonna be some that are a little more evergreen. 156 00:27:43.668 --> 00:27:54.168 Or we, we talked a little bit earlier about the, the weekly ads- Mm... and I wrote down how you have priced these on your website at this moment in time. It says for one week it's 500 to $1,000. 157 00:27:54.608 --> 00:28:10.728 Two weeks it's 1,050 to 2,100. Three weeks it is 1,250 to 2,500. So you're, those aren't happening that often. Do you then sort of change that product and it is maybe a lower price, but it then absorbs some of these 158 00:28:11.768 --> 00:28:17.198 f- uh, classifieds that fit that category better? You know- [laughs]... 159 00:28:17.268 --> 00:28:26.708 I should have asked you about this before I ever- [laughs] I'm working on that too, on, um, on, like, revamping the sponsorship as, as well, because, uh, 160 00:28:27.648 --> 00:28:34.988 that is a place where I don't think I've been maximizing the opportunity as much. I think I, I do plan on reserving that for, 161 00:28:35.928 --> 00:28:47.948 uh, orgs, projects that have bigger budgets, 'cause I think that's where I can be, like, ethically leveraging my audi- my reach a little bit more, and trying to align with, 162 00:28:49.448 --> 00:28:58.938 you know, initiatives, I will say, entities- Mm... that have funds that would like to get in front of my audience and would be of value to my audience. Um, 163 00:29:00.508 --> 00:29:14.308 n- so that space I think is gonna hopefully start featuring some more of that stuff soon at a probably- Yeah... a higher price point given that I have been told that I am kind of like a bargain, [laughs] 164 00:29:14.628 --> 00:29:22.618 a bargain basement, uh, situation right now. Mm. Considering the open rate and the audience and- Well, and yeah, considering, like-... the conversion rate... 165 00:29:22.618 --> 00:29:32.428 the, the, yeah, the open rate, the click rate, et cetera, but considering the, like, the clarity and quality of audience that you have. Like, the value is in your values and how you have- Right. Yes... 166 00:29:32.438 --> 00:29:40.088 like, baked these into the newsletter over a decade, right? [laughs] Like, that's the real value beyond the s- like, the size just magnifies that, right? Yeah. Yeah. 167 00:29:40.148 --> 00:29:48.248 I mean, there's, like, I'll say it again, like, the quality of people, and I guess that's, like, a weird thing to say, 'cause, like, [laughs] how do you judge someone's quality? But- I don't know... 168 00:29:48.268 --> 00:30:02.488 like, the people I have met from the newsletter and the things I have heard from hiring orgs, like, these are good people. They are talented people. They are good people who, um, yeah, their values align with mine. 169 00:30:02.558 --> 00:30:19.628 They want to be spending their time and money on things that align with their values. Like, they are, I guess, like, the audience that a lot of, um, of, that I can imagine being, like, very appealing to certain 170 00:30:20.908 --> 00:30:35.428 brands, orgs, projects, whatever. Um, but it's hard because I just have a high bar. Yeah. I have a high bar, really high bar for what goes in the newsletter, for what I get behind, um-You know, this like, you... 171 00:30:35.468 --> 00:30:52.938 Yeah, it's incredibly values-driven, and it can be a slippery slope with, "Oh, well, these people wanna give you, you know, $3,000 to feature their AI product in the newsletter," and it's like, "AI for good, so, like, don't worry," and, you know, that gets slippery, and 172 00:30:53.948 --> 00:31:07.648 I trust in my, like, moral foundation that I can make the call, but once you start offering opportunities to make more money more easily, I can just see how that can go sideways. Yeah. 173 00:31:07.748 --> 00:31:23.628 And I've been reluctant to even, like, allow that possibility. So, you know, the next six months or whatever, I'm exploring this with a partner, a consultant, um, who shares my values and understands. 174 00:31:23.708 --> 00:31:34.528 She's been a newsletter subscriber for, you know, like, almost the whole time. So that was very important. If I'm gonna hire someone to work on this with me, like, they really need to get it, and they- Mm-hmm... 175 00:31:34.568 --> 00:31:46.128 they can't be, like, trying to convince me that I'm leaving money on the table or that I need to loosen up or whatever. So we're gonna see. It's an experiment because I don't know if my... if I can, like... 176 00:31:46.148 --> 00:32:10.988 if those projects, brands, orgs, whatever exist really in, um, plentiful numbers that have the money to pay for, uh, those, you know, primary, prominent spots in the newsletter, and then if not, I don't know, maybe Francis will go and do what you suggested and make that more of, like, a d- democratic, um, accessible space for, you know- Well, we, we could, we could talk-... 177 00:32:11.218 --> 00:32:17.328 special, special-... if it, if it gets to that point. Yeah. [laughs] Uh- Yeah... so with... but the one other thing, the last way that this does bring in some money is the Patreon. So I checked. 178 00:32:17.388 --> 00:32:27.708 As of today, there are 596 members, and this isn't some extra content thing. This is just a, like, you are a reader and you wanna support this project. Uh, there's five, or three tiers, excuse me. 179 00:32:27.868 --> 00:32:39.488 A $1 a week, $5 a week, or $10 per week. I know that there's also, like, a free option, so I don't think all 596 of those people are paying. Um, but, ag- so I'm reminded of... 180 00:32:39.568 --> 00:32:42.777 I had Melanie Ehrenkranz of the Laid Off newsletter on- Mm-hmm... 181 00:32:42.828 --> 00:32:52.808 about, um, almost a year ago now, but we were talking about this too, and, like, you know, charging recently laid-off people for membership to this group, and it makes sense w- with hers, right? 182 00:32:52.928 --> 00:33:03.228 I, I think, I think the newsletter, I think all of the issues might be free. I can't quite recall right now, which is embarrassing, but membership into this, like, Slack or Discord community she has- Yeah... 183 00:33:03.838 --> 00:33:11.108 is, is for a fee, which makes sense 'cause then you're getting access to the space where you can commiserate with people and help each other find the next thing. 184 00:33:11.188 --> 00:33:17.948 Um, long way of saying I think that if you are, like, a job seeker and 185 00:33:19.568 --> 00:33:30.008 you, you subscribe to Word of Mouth, $1 a week is not that much for something that can be quite meaningful, and maybe there's people who then found a great job through your work, and now they pay. 186 00:33:30.088 --> 00:33:39.048 A long [laughs] w- setup, though, for, to ask you to just tell me about this Patreon donation program, which is so value-aligned because you don't need to find, like, companies. 187 00:33:39.088 --> 00:33:52.997 It's just, like, these are people who like my work and wanna, like, do, contribute. Yeah. The Patreon is... Right now, I think there's, like, 305 Patreon people who pay. Hmm. Um, a- almost... 188 00:33:53.068 --> 00:34:06.078 Like, maybe it's 302 of which pay $1 a week. [laughs] Yeah. [laughs] So, um, it's, it is, um, very... I've really under-leveraged Patreon, I will say. Yeah. 189 00:34:06.228 --> 00:34:12.788 I was just talking to a friend who's been a [laughs] newsletter subscriber for years, and she's like, "You have a Patreon?" Like, people don't know because 190 00:34:13.728 --> 00:34:22.018 I probably do a poor job of messaging it even though it's in the heading text of every newsletter. It's like, "You can become a patron." But then that thing just becomes invisible. You know, people skip that. 191 00:34:22.018 --> 00:34:25.508 Yeah, exactly. Right. You don't, you don't look at it. Mm-hmm. 192 00:34:25.558 --> 00:34:37.248 So, um, this is another thing I'm, I'm exploring this year is, like, a campaign to let people know that there is a Patreon, that they can become a member for, you know, $4 a month, and, um, I... 193 00:34:37.568 --> 00:34:50.118 But it's like what you were talking about with Melanie. Like, I actually think $1 a week for some people, it might not actually be, um, life-changing, but it feels that way when- Yeah... 194 00:34:50.148 --> 00:35:01.108 they have been out of work for six months or a year, or- It's another straw on the camel's back. Yeah. It's just something else, um, that adds up. So I get why it's a psychological hurdle to do that. 195 00:35:01.528 --> 00:35:08.168 Also, just from a user experience perspective, it's a hurdle. [laughs] Like, people are like, "What do you mean? I just signed up. Now I have to go to the Patreon and sign up?" So, 196 00:35:09.208 --> 00:35:22.308 um, there are other platforms that do this better than Mailchimp. So, so yeah. I understand why people do not sign up as patrons. Um, but it's also just never been my primary focus. 197 00:35:22.368 --> 00:35:32.748 Like, I, like I said, I focus on the people who are doing the hiring. They're the people who should be paying me. Yeah. No, totally. The people who are hiring, who are looking for work. Um, I would love... 198 00:35:33.208 --> 00:35:46.398 I'll tell you, this consultant who I'm working with was like, "Rachel, your patron subscription rate is.4% of your subscriber base." [laughs] "We can get that to 1%." Yeah. Like, 1% is not 199 00:35:47.448 --> 00:36:03.308 a, that is not a, a, you know, a high bar. Yeah. So my goal this year is to get to 1% [laughs] on Patreon. Um, and I know that to do that, I'm gonna have to actually let people know that a Patreon exists. Yeah. So yeah. 200 00:36:03.908 --> 00:36:17.848 I think I have heard consistently over the years how much the newsletter means to people. I know what people spend on coffee and sandwiches in New York and Los Angeles. I think 201 00:36:18.808 --> 00:36:32.888 a lot of people could give, give a dollar a week. Um, and I'm hoping to, to get there soon. [laughs] Yeah. You will. Yeah. Uh, okay. Earlier, you said that you are no longer working a full-time job. 202 00:36:32.968 --> 00:36:37.796 For a long time, you were working a full-time job while also doing this, and I do wanna hear about-... 203 00:36:38.406 --> 00:36:43.916 the, the amount of work that goes into this and how that's fluctuated over the years, especially as you've gotten more dialed in and more submissions. 204 00:36:44.296 --> 00:36:58.936 But for how long have you been not working a full-time job and able to support yourself partially through, uh, what comes in through Words of Mouth? I've been working freelance part-time since December 2019. Oh, wow. 205 00:36:59.496 --> 00:37:15.936 Um, so just in time- [laughs]... for everything to go offline. What happened then? Yeah. Um, and yeah, I've been working between 9 and 20 hours a week on contract work over that time. 206 00:37:16.916 --> 00:37:31.696 I will say recently I've been working, like, less contract and more book and newsletter stuff, um, than ever before, which has been great. Do you have like, do you have like a, a lower limit? 207 00:37:31.756 --> 00:37:43.056 Like, I need at least X- X, Y, Z jobs. How many jobs is that? I have a template in the, in my, uh, like my newsletter has a template where there's just, like, a set... [laughs] I don't even know how many it is. 208 00:37:43.175 --> 00:37:52.476 I think it's 30. Um- There was 31 in Monday's, I can tell you that. Okay, okay. So yeah, it's like 30, and I f- I aim to fill that, and then I'll go over sometimes. 209 00:37:52.556 --> 00:38:02.606 And very rarely I'll, honest- around holidays and sometimes in the summer I'll have to take out empty listings, but I try to fill it up. Yeah. What about the calls? Yeah. 210 00:38:02.636 --> 00:38:14.726 So in, in, in Monday's, Monday, February 9th, there was 31 jobs, six classified ads, and 26 calls for, for grants, incubator applications, residenc- residency applications, and, like, art and writing submissions. Mm-hmm. 211 00:38:14.736 --> 00:38:26.416 What about the calls? So the calls come in a lot through my email, just like jobs. Um, people who are hosting an exhibition and they wanna invite proposals or submissions. 212 00:38:26.596 --> 00:38:38.396 Um, res- people who host residencies, they wanna invite applicants. So most of those I get through direct submission. Occasionally I'll also find one or two or three. Yeah. 213 00:38:38.476 --> 00:38:48.176 I try not to post too many of those 'cause they just take up a lot of space, and then they, I keep them in the newsletter through the deadline. So every week I have three empty spaces for calls. 214 00:38:48.276 --> 00:39:00.066 Um, so yeah, those are, they're basically, I find them the same way as I find jobs. And- Mm-hmm... um, I, I like the calls because they can be really, really diverse. 215 00:39:00.076 --> 00:39:14.016 Like, it can be kind of your standard residency, but it can also be, like someone submitted a job this week for a free writing workshop that's meeting, like, 216 00:39:15.076 --> 00:39:28.936 uh, for a week or something, where it's, you're meet- you get to meet with an au- like work with an author, um, and it's free. And it's like you can just apply, and it's for Muslim women and gender non-conforming folks. 217 00:39:28.996 --> 00:39:34.836 And I just, anything that's free where it's, like, open to people- Yeah... 218 00:39:34.856 --> 00:39:44.436 and you're just giving them an opportunity that bene- Like, it's just, [laughs] it's rare, and I really like to call attention to those 'cause, um, again, it's like the classifieds. 219 00:39:44.476 --> 00:39:53.316 Like, people just don't have- Platform... you need to, you need to partner with people who have platforms in order to do that, and, um, it's, it's hard. 220 00:39:53.356 --> 00:40:03.336 It's hard to find, to get access, so I like to share kinda smaller things. Oh, and like, I share a lot of calls for journals that are just starting out. Like- Mm-hmm... 221 00:40:03.376 --> 00:40:12.156 there are a lot of Gen Z-ers who just [laughs] really love making magazines, and, and so they'll po- God bless them. Yeah. 222 00:40:12.616 --> 00:40:22.846 [laughs] So they'll post via Words of Mouth, and they'll be like, "We filled the whole magazine [laughs] with people who submitted from Words of Mouth," or like so it seems. Mm. 223 00:40:22.876 --> 00:40:36.396 And, and that's cool because they're like little subcultures, you know? It's not for everyone, um, but it's for enough people that it's, it's like, it's kind of earned its spot in, in the newsletter. 224 00:40:36.436 --> 00:40:49.636 And, like, there's someone out there fulfilling their dream because they got to post about their new textile publication, and the first issue's theme is octopus, and everyone, there's like, you know, 15 people for whom that's a perfect fit. 225 00:40:50.016 --> 00:41:04.256 Yeah. And they're like, "This is my dream come true." And that's kind of, like those little connections, um, is what I, like, I really am kind of proud of and, and so happy to, to steward and facilitate. 226 00:41:05.756 --> 00:41:21.366 In this way, like, I don't know, maybe this is reductive, but I feel like Words of Mouth is sort of this, like, central casting or recruitment agency for this certain segment of, like, liberal-minded creative class people who probably live in New York, maybe LA, other cities too. 227 00:41:21.436 --> 00:41:29.106 But it's like, like, that's, I mean, I say that as part of that demographic, right? But it's like- Yeah... central casting [laughs] for that demographic. I know. I, I want, I think there- [sighs]... 228 00:41:29.136 --> 00:41:39.946 someone should do, like, a parody satire of, like, the, the Words of Mouth reader and- Yeah... like, what their bio would be, because there's definitely a satire, yeah. You know, but you know what this is? 229 00:41:40.136 --> 00:41:44.336 The, maybe, uh, here's another way to use your platform and put the thumb on the scale for young talent. 230 00:41:44.416 --> 00:41:52.246 Maybe there's, like, a, a cartoon, a little comic every week in there, and, and you, you have rotating people, uh, make, making such parodies. 231 00:41:52.376 --> 00:42:02.195 I've wanted to do something like that for a long time, like feature work from readers and somehow just call attention to- Well, but this, this-... maybe people in the audience. 232 00:42:02.226 --> 00:42:08.386 But- Sorry to interrupt, but I feel like this goes back to what you were saying about, like, well, do I really wanna build this editorial around this? Exactly, yeah. 233 00:42:08.386 --> 00:42:15.546 Like, what if it's, like, really about this one function? And totally, 'cause there are people who would open the newsletter and be like, "I do not care. Just show me the jobs." Yeah, exactly. 234 00:42:15.546 --> 00:42:19.796 "That's the only reason I'm here." And that might be the majority of readers, I would think. I do. 235 00:42:19.896 --> 00:42:48.308 Okay, well, actually this, this, uh, I, I interviewed this guy, Surge Kapoor, um, in the summer, and he has a, a links roundup newsletter, um, aggregation newsletter where it's, i- he, he started it when he was working at a VC firm, and it was this internal newsletter that he made to serve, uh, the often young-Tech founders and like engineers at their portfolio companies where it's like, "Here's really good writing and thinking that you should read that'll, like, make you a better manager and smarter," and all this kind of stuff. 236 00:42:48.848 --> 00:43:00.948 Uh, and he added a comic, uh, I think he's been doing it now for like, I forget, it's like eight years or something, and eventually he left and they gave it to him 'cause they didn't wanna run it anymore, and now he makes his living doing it and running ads in it. 237 00:43:01.068 --> 00:43:08.978 But he added a comic, and I remember him say... Like, I really liked the comic. I was like, "Oh, this is so fun." And he said that, um, he'd gotten great feedback on it. So that's, that's one data point for you. 238 00:43:08.988 --> 00:43:11.318 Oh, people liked it. People liked the comic. People liked it. Ooh. 239 00:43:11.348 --> 00:43:18.868 Yeah, 'cause otherwise it's like his newsletter it's, I think it's seven links, and it's like one paragraph he writes sort of summarizing the main point of each, and that was it. 240 00:43:18.948 --> 00:43:31.568 Um, so it's a little more condensed than yours. Mm-hmm. But to that point, I have often spoken to people whose newsletter or product is a form of aggregation, curation, editing. 241 00:43:31.668 --> 00:43:41.588 Um, Casey Lewis was an early person I spoke to for this and, you know, she rhine- rounds up like four headlines, four or five headlines from Gen Z culture every week. 242 00:43:41.668 --> 00:43:46.368 There's, uh, the aptly named Links I Would Gchat You If We Were Friends by Caitlin Dewey. 243 00:43:46.988 --> 00:43:58.998 There's a bunch more of people I've interviewed who, whose like the core of their work is finding links, content from around the internet and aggregating it with new context, and that's what you do as well. So in that, 244 00:44:00.228 --> 00:44:15.488 with all that context, three words, aggregation, curation, editing. What are the differences between these words to you? Aggregation I think of as... Actually, I think what you just described is my process over the week. 245 00:44:15.838 --> 00:44:31.648 Mm. So aggregation is I start by just kind of pulling in everything that might be interesting, and this is very, um, like ad hoc, like, uh... Ad hoc's not the right word. This is very intuitive. It's like- Yeah... 246 00:44:31.908 --> 00:44:45.188 I don't have to read the full job listing. I will just save, save, save, save, save, ignore, save, ignore, save, ignore. And then after I have like a critical mass, that's when I go in and I think, "Is this right?" 247 00:44:45.728 --> 00:44:58.948 Read a little bit more, Google something, um, and I'll decide to feature it or not. And then as the newsletter fills out, I become, like, more sensitive to what's already in the newsletter. 248 00:44:59.028 --> 00:45:07.608 Like, where does it need to balance out? Are there too many senior level roles? Do I wanna do something, like are there, is there, is it all New York this week? Do I need to feature some- one in LA? 249 00:45:08.168 --> 00:45:17.588 Um, you know, do I wanna do something... Like, do I wanna feature one that's more like a hands-on job, you know, manual? Um, is, are there too many comms roles? 250 00:45:18.508 --> 00:45:30.648 But all of that calculus is happening, uh, kind of like s- like on a subterranean level. Yeah. Like I'm, I'm not like checking things off on an inventory spreadsheet, you know? 251 00:45:30.688 --> 00:45:35.238 It's just at this point like really kind of baked into my fingers. And, 252 00:45:36.357 --> 00:45:45.068 um, so I'd say like the aggregation and the curation are both intuitive, but they have like different points of emphasis and, and attention given to them. 253 00:45:46.148 --> 00:45:58.728 Um, the curation takes the longest because I need to be thoughtful and I will also need to kind of like go out on expeditions and find things to fill in and, um, replace certain things. 254 00:45:59.528 --> 00:46:08.868 Um, and I guess that's the editing, too. So editing and curation go hand-in-hand. Like it's, it's, um, uh, curation is editing in this case. Yeah. Yeah. Mm-hmm. That makes sense. 255 00:46:09.508 --> 00:46:19.408 Yeah, it's like the harvesting and the quality control. Mm-hmm. Yeah. Harvesting. Uh, okay. Let's, let's talk about the book. So you are publishing an anthology about looking for work. 256 00:46:19.468 --> 00:46:33.568 It is called Search Work: A Collective Inquiry into the Job Hunt. You first put out the call for pitches, uh, about one year ago, I think January, February 2025. And pitches, I think you gave about a month for pitches. 257 00:46:33.628 --> 00:46:42.528 You received 1,100. There are 30 contributions in the book. And it's a way of honoring a decade of doing this work, right? Yeah. 258 00:46:42.908 --> 00:46:54.188 I saw the decade anniversary on the horizon last year, and I had just a wild idea [laughs] that I would make a book because- [laughs]... um, that seemed like a fun thing to do. 259 00:46:54.748 --> 00:47:12.478 And I also was very cognizant of the fact that the newsletter exists on my website. It is an archive page with, you know, hundreds of links, and that just didn't feel like enough of a, of an, a, a record. 260 00:47:12.588 --> 00:47:29.428 Like, I wanted there to be an artifact for this community and this project. So, um, also I'm an editor and I like books, and I thought this would be a great way to collaborate with people from the newsletter community. 261 00:47:29.508 --> 00:47:37.008 Because like I said, I don't get to really interact with people that often, so I wanted to bring other people's voices into the conversation. It's not just me. 262 00:47:37.088 --> 00:47:52.238 It's like how can I, um, share the depth and complexity of this experience, which I just think about so much- Mm-hmm... and is so, uh, im- it's just so important to the human experience- Yeah... 263 00:47:52.288 --> 00:48:04.588 and has not been explored in critical ways. And I wanted to give... I thought, you know, I think Words of Mouth readers are like the perfect people to do that exploration right now and put it on paper 264 00:48:05.588 --> 00:48:21.868 and start this conversation. So yeah, I decided to make a collaborative book. Um, I love collaborating, but I do a lot of work alone. So I work remotely. I, the newsletter's all me. I do not have any employees. 265 00:48:22.358 --> 00:48:32.768 Um- How's this consultant you're working with? Uh, is that like the first person you've... Well, you've worked with somebody on the design. Yeah. Hannah Nathans is a friend. And she, that was very, like, siloed work. 266 00:48:32.828 --> 00:48:38.988 Like we would, we've done like a few rounds over the course of 10 years of like- Okay. Yeah... revamping certain things. So it's not ongoing. 267 00:48:39.088 --> 00:48:48.701 Um-And yeah, so this is the first time I would be like really collaborating with people on something related to the newsletter, and I wanted that really badly. Hmm. 268 00:48:48.752 --> 00:49:02.252 I really wanted to open up my, my practice and my work to collaboration last year and, and I certainly did. I, um, I found four contributing editors, all of whom are newsletter readers, um, some of whom I knew. 269 00:49:02.332 --> 00:49:16.772 Others came from re- their own, from their referrals, like within, you know, this group of four. Um, and we... They became kind of like my, my brain trust and- Mm-hmm... and my core collaborators on this project. 270 00:49:17.432 --> 00:49:32.062 Um, yeah, we got 1,100 pitches through the pitch call. We chose, I think we chose 20, somewhere in the 20s. Um, we had to cut a couple pieces in the process, 'cause that's show business. 271 00:49:32.602 --> 00:49:48.032 [laughs] And then I commissioned two other pieces. Um, and then we also feature, uh, dozens of like mini stories, mini quotes in the book that are also from Words of Mouth readers. 272 00:49:48.132 --> 00:49:59.292 So at a certain point, um, we were in, like a few months into the editorial process, I sent a survey out to the, um, to readers, and I was like... 273 00:49:59.672 --> 00:50:10.812 I don't remember exactly the question I asked actually, but it was maybe something like, "Tell me a job hunting story in 40 words or less." Um, and so those, combined with some 274 00:50:11.772 --> 00:50:16.762 excerpts from pitches that were not accepted, 'cause there were so many good pitches that we couldn't accept. Wow. 275 00:50:16.792 --> 00:50:25.832 So a lot of the pitches that we couldn't accept, we excerpted into short quotes, and we have four text collages in the book that feature like dozens of little stories and voices. 276 00:50:25.872 --> 00:50:30.912 So the point being, like there are just so many stories that we could not fit in this book about job hunting. 277 00:50:30.932 --> 00:50:43.272 It's so many different things to so many people, so here's just like a little, a smattering of, of those stories, of the spectrum of experiences related to job hunting. We managed to pull it together pretty quickly. 278 00:50:43.372 --> 00:50:58.392 So there was very rigorous editorial process from like May through September, um, and then we just sent the final production files off last week. So it's shipping in March. 279 00:50:58.532 --> 00:51:23.552 [laughs] Um, pre-orders are open, and I'm so excited because somehow it's just like magic that it actually lined up where like this 10-year anniversary year we actually have this artifact that opens the project up to the wider world, where people who've never heard of Words of Mouth, who do not live in New York or other metro areas in the States, um, will learn about the project. 280 00:51:23.592 --> 00:51:31.732 But more importantly, they will get to be involved in this conversation about job hunting and what it means and what it does to us, and maybe how to make it better, and, um... 281 00:51:33.052 --> 00:51:41.581 Yeah, so it's a big, it's a big moment, and I'm really excited that the people who are in the book get to have their stories told. It's a lot of first-time- Yeah... 282 00:51:41.612 --> 00:51:53.252 not first-time writers, but people who haven't had work published, um, in, you know, in a, in a way that can, allows for a lot of people to hear their stories. In an artifact as, like that, yeah. Yeah, yeah. 283 00:51:53.612 --> 00:51:56.432 And that was one of my early, um... 284 00:51:56.672 --> 00:52:13.762 Before I had decided on it being a book, I was like, should I start a kind of like a, a residency publication, where every month I publish a piece from someone, uh, about, you know, loosely related to work or job hunting, um, and as a way to give people an opportunity- Mm-hmm... 285 00:52:13.762 --> 00:52:22.132 to be published? 'Cause I thought, I was thinking a lot about the t- at the time about how there's just so many people out there who wanna get their work out in the world. 286 00:52:22.232 --> 00:52:36.372 And, um, a lot of my audience is, is, are writers and- Yes... um, so I was thinking a lot about those people. And, you know, obviously this is, I did not wanna do a sustaining project, like that had no end date. 287 00:52:36.452 --> 00:52:43.132 That scares me a lot for a lot of reasons, but I thought the book is perfect because it's gonna be a lot of work, and then it's gonna be done. 288 00:52:43.152 --> 00:52:53.652 It's gonna exist in the world, and it can bring a lot of people together in one shared space. So, so that's what we did. You already have one sustaining, endless project, so there- Exactly... 289 00:52:53.722 --> 00:53:00.032 there's no need to, to add another. Exactly. Yeah. Had you ever edited something like this or been involved in publishing any sort of book in, in any of your day jobs maybe? 290 00:53:00.712 --> 00:53:18.212 Um, I, I've done a lot of collaborative editing, mostly for journal pieces and, and like essays, and, um, not necessarily books. Hmm. So it was my first book project. Yeah, yeah. That's awesome. Mm-hmm. Are you... 291 00:53:18.912 --> 00:53:27.992 Did you have to spend a lot of money to make this? Are you, is it paying for itself? Yeah. No, no. What did it take like resource-wise? I spent a lot of money, yeah. Yeah. [laughs] Um, I paid everyone. 292 00:53:28.152 --> 00:53:40.032 So I, I paid my editors. Um, I paid contributors. I wish I could've paid them more, but I, I paid everyone, you know, out of 293 00:53:41.032 --> 00:53:54.532 my pocket, but I just kind of thought of it as, it's like the newsletter's paying them. And- Yeah... um, and then I did run a fundraiser in the fall to sort of try to recoup some of the costs. 294 00:53:54.752 --> 00:54:01.702 Um, I'm working with a publisher also who gave me a small advance, but it's like a radical leftist publisher- Yeah. [laughs]... 295 00:54:01.712 --> 00:54:12.132 that works out of like a 10-foot space in the East Village, and they're absolutely the perfect partners for me, but they do not have giant budgets. So they gave me a s- a small advance, which I'm grateful for. Mm-hmm. 296 00:54:12.332 --> 00:54:20.472 Um, and who knows? Maybe because it was so small, I'll actually get a good amount of royalties, [laughs] you know, down the road. I, I... It's like, it doesn't matter. 297 00:54:20.552 --> 00:54:31.992 It's like [laughs] I kinda went into this being like, "You're gonna lose money. Hopefully you'll break even." Um, I just felt really, really passionately about doing this, and I did not 298 00:54:32.932 --> 00:54:45.672 do the math beforehand, 'cause I knew if I did, I wouldn't wanna do it- Yeah... 'cause the math wouldn't make sense. But I actually do, I do not think I'm ultimately losing money on it, too much money on it. 299 00:54:45.782 --> 00:54:55.602 [laughs] Well, I'm gonna purchase a copy. And anybody who's listened this far into the podcast, I hope you go purchase a copy. Wait, where should people find it? Is it on wordsofmouth.org or...? Yes. So you can... 300 00:54:55.732 --> 00:55:08.172 It's linked on my website right now. Um, you can also go to orbooks.com- Mm... orbooks.com, and you can search the catalog for Search Work. It's, uh, yeah, we're taking pre-orders, and it'll ship next month. 301 00:55:08.472 --> 00:55:16.222 So there's also a launch event on April 1st in the East Village where you can buy copies. Nice. I'll come to that. Mm-hmm. 302 00:55:16.232 --> 00:55:25.052 Is there anything else that you, that we haven't mentioned that you wanna get into before we wrap it up? I don't think so. I think this was great. It was fun to unpack. Awesome. Good. 303 00:55:25.132 --> 00:55:33.292 I, happy to give you the platform for it. [laughs] Thank you for coming on. [outro music] Hi there. My name's Tom. I'm the producer of the Creative Spotlight Podcast. 304 00:55:33.692 --> 00:55:36.872 I've just made a playlist on our YouTube channel of our top 10 episodes. 305 00:55:37.232 --> 00:55:45.592 So whether you're new here or you've been watching, listening for a little while, check out that playlist to make sure you've seen and heard our top 10 most popular episodes. 306 00:55:46.072 --> 00:55:52.152 I'll keep the playlist updated as the top 10 changes. If you're on YouTube, just click on that box over there. That's our top 10.