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Did your love for the dog that you have dramatically decrease when you ended up having your first kid, Everett? We were taking our dog on a walk once. She just decided to eat an entire corn cob.

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And they pretty much said, "We're either gonna need have to amputate his leg. We'll find out." Dogs are expensive. We had to get stomach surgery to take it out.

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Have you ever, with your kids or someone else's kids, like, just been hanging out and all of a sudden they sneeze, like, in your mouth? Like, just like, like, like in your face.

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If you're 30 years old, what do you think the average amount is that that 30-year-old has saved up? I'm Team Stanley, but do you have a preference of Stanley versus Owala? If so, tell me why.

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[upbeat music] Welcome back to another episode of Two Dads and Tech, and in this episode we talk about how dogs are so damn expensive, what we think about sick kids in public, if owning a Tesla means that you now support Elon Musk, same thing with Chick-fil-A, how much the average 30-year-old in corporate has in their savings, and which water bottle is better, Stanley or Owala.

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We hope you enjoy this episode. Make sure you like and subscribe. Anyways, let's get right into it. Happy birthday, Daniel. How are you? I'm great. I'm great. You know, it's been a rough day, though.

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Let me tell you about my day. Yeah. I took my dog out this morning, my three-year-old and my six-year-old, so three-year-old boy, human, six-year-old dog, not human. We're running around in the backyard.

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It's really cold in Charleston right now, so that means- Mm... like 30, 25 to 30 degrees, which granted is, is very cold in Charleston.

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The dog starts doing the zoomies, the dog starts doing the zoomies, and then all of a sudden the three-year-old's outside by himself and the dog is in the sunroom. And I'm like, "What's going on?" Dog is looking odd.

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I bring her in and she's limping terribly. Mm. Turns out she broke her toe. I don't even know if that's what you call it on a dog.

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I took her to the ER 'cause I was like, "This, clearly something's, like, very wrong right now."

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And, you know, they did the x-rays and she just like straight up, like, like, trip fractured one of her, like, her, like, pinky toe on her back leg.

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I don't know what it's called, but it's, like, fractured almost, like, a, it maybe it's called a V fracture, but it's, like- Yeah... it's broken pretty badly.

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So $750 and three and a half hours later, uh, she is downstairs sedated heavily, which I have a Bernedoodle, so that sedation actually is, uh, is a welcome treatment right now- [laughs]...

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uh, because she's usually bouncing off the walls, but dogs are, uh, expensive. I, I was not planning on spending this day in the vet for three hours. Yeah. Dude, first and foremost, what's your dog's name? Lacey? Lacey.

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Lacey, we all hope that your toe gets better soon. Poor Lacey. Same. But- Yes, poor dog. But [laughs] But speaking, speaking of dogs, let's talk a little bit more about dogs.

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Dogs are way more expensive than you anticipate. Oh my God. I have a golden retriever, but we moved to North Carolina December 19th, 2021 maybe.

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I, I don't remember the year, but within a week my dog's limping on a Friday night and I'm like, "Ah, he must have just played weird with the other dogs or he twisted his foot or whatever, I don't know."

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Saturday he's probably using about 90%, or not using about 90% of his leg, and so, like, he's- Yeah... hopping around on three legs essentially. And I was like, "Okay, that's weird."

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And so I take him to the vet and they're like, "Uh, I don't really see anything. He must have just, like, broke something. I'm not sure." Like, they didn't do any x-rays, they were just, like, looking at it.

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And then Sunday I see a little bit of blood come from the bottom of his foot. I'm like, "That's really weird." He's not using any of it at this point. He's not touching it.

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Yeah, so- When I touch it, he's actually yelping and he's, he's got a high pain to- pain tolerance, so typically he doesn't do this, right? He doesn't usually yelp.

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I can accidentally step on him and he'd be like, "Oh, dude, what's up?" Um,

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so I take him in that Sunday and then they had to shave his leg, and they noticed that about a quarter size, maybe a little bit bigger, like a golf ball size of his flesh was just dissolving.

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And they pretty much said, "We're either gonna need to amputate his... Like, we might have to amputate his leg. We'll find out." Mm.

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But they said he must have gotten bit by some sort of, like, brown recluse, black widow, some spider, or- Oh... a snake while on a walk.

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But what's really interesting is rarely do I let my dogs, like, run very far away from me. Sure. And 99% of the time I walk them on a leash because- Mm... I just like walking with them. I think it's good exercise.

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So all that to say, that ended up happening, he did not need to get his leg amputated, but for three weeks- Yeah... in a row I had to go to the vet every day for him to get his wound washed out.

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He still has the scar, but his wound washed out, ended up being around $6,000. Then- Oh... two... Dude, t- so frustrating. I just moved into a new house.

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We just put our down payment down, and then two months ago, we don't know what he ate, but he needed to get surgery to get it to removed, to, to get whatever he ate removed, and that was- Sure...

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tw- I think it was like 2,500, $3,000, and we had to drive an hour and a half away. Oh, it was... Dude, dogs. That's insane. Dogs. We were taking our dog on a walk once, uh, and she just decided to eat

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an entire corn cob. [laughs] That's not good. We had to get stomach surgery to- Yep... take it out- Yeah... because a full corn cob was just in her stomach. And you can go, "Oh, how do you possibly let your dog eat a...

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" No. First of all, why is a corn cob on the street? That's not my fault. And second of all, by the time I noticed a corn cob was on the street, it was in her stomach.

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[laughs] It's like it happens, it happens in such a fast moment in time. Oh, it's insane. Yeah. Dogs are insane. Yeah. Dogs are so stinking expensive.

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When did you get- And- Did you have kids already when you got your dog? No. Um, I did not. So I got both of my dogs pre-kids, and that's actually

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a great segue to a question I was going to ask you, and maybe we're thinking the same thing here.Maybe Did your love for the dog that you have dramatically decrease when you ended up having your first kid, Everett?

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Oh, uh, without question. I wanted a dog, we wanted a dog, we got a dog. We were a year married, uh, ish, and so we had a house, life was good, no kids. Dog made sense.

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We even wanted a dog before kids specifically for the dog to be, like, trained well by the time we had kids, and so we got a Bernedoodle, great family dog. You know, you can read up about 'em.

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They're, they're, they're great with kids. But good Lord, I... The totem pole of my love has changed astronomically- Yeah... since having kids.

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I have human children, and j- the dog is just not a human child. [laughs] There's no compare. There's no compare. Yeah.

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When the dog is your only child, you can basically treat your dog like a human child, but when you have, when you have actual human children- Yeah... it's been a shift. It's been an adjustment. What about you?

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So for me, I still love the dogs, and I now take 100% responsibility for the dogs, so the feedings, the walkings, the everything. My wife is like, "You're doing everything for the dogs. I don't wanna do anything." Yeah.

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"You're doing everything for the dogs." And so I do everything for the dogs. I will say it's... Like,

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I still probably play with them, I still probably play with them just as much as I did pre-kids, but my wife specifically... I know it's... I don't know what it is. Like, who knows?

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I, I, like, I'll lay on the floor with them, I let 'em jump all over me, but my wife specifically is like, "Dude, get these dogs away from me," and she was never like that.

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But then we have another couple friend where the, the, the wife was just head over heels for her dog. Like, their own...

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They had a guest bedroom that they made Graham's bedroom, um, so their own bedroom for the dog that's just, like, pimped out for the, for the pup- Mm... and all this stuff.

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Head over heels, and I believe, if I'm not mistaken, the love for the dog that she had, again, it, it was reduced [laughs] significantly once they had their kid, who's now I think around six months or so. Yeah.

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But it seems like that's a common theme.

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It seems like every friend, married friend group that I have that has a kid, the dogs definitely have taken a backseat after they had human children, 'cause it's just, it's so different, man. Yes. Yeah. It is different.

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And what I'm learning about myself is I have, you know, the whole, like, old-fashioned, like, your cup overfloweth, a- as it were.

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It's like I have a very, very limited measured amount of cup, [laughs] and like- [laughs]... once it's gone, I have nothing left to give, and that gets depleted way faster right now- Yeah...

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in this season of life than it did before I had children. I mean, like, it gets depleted every day. Yeah. By the end of the day I'm like, "I'm, I'm done." Like, I have nothing left. Yeah.

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And so the dog doesn't know that. [laughs] Yeah. The dog just wants everything I have. I'm like, "I got nothing left." You know? And so yeah. Yeah. Dogs are tough. I love dogs, I've had dogs my whole life,

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but- They're- Yeah... they're tough. They're t- They're tough when you have a family. They are. Troy, you and I both take our families out on Fridays. At least typically we try to go out for a breakfast.

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You know, you do that with your family. I try to do that with mine.

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The day we're recording this happens to be a day that Beehive sets aside as a monthly wellness day, and so Beehive does this great thing where you take a, a day off every month, uh, the whole company.

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Um, obviously some people are there for coverage, but for the most part everyone takes the day off, and so we went out for breakfast, but both my kids are coughing right now. Mm.

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And they've been coughing for, like, 10 days, maybe two weeks. So, like, at this point you're like, "Okay, you just have a cough." Like, it's just... It's not going anywhere, but, like, you're fine.

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Your, your attitude's fine. You're not, like, exhibiting all these other symptoms. You don't have the flu, you don't have a fever. You just have a cough, and it's gonna be there forever 'cause you're a child.

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So I was super stressed before going to breakfast. I looked at Courtney and I was like, "Babe," particularly our, our eldest, his cough is, like, pretty deep. He had RSV- Yeah... two months ago or so, and- Yep...

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they say when you have RSV, like, you get coughs later on that just sound worse and last longer. Yeah. And so- Okay...

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this is the first cough he's had since he had RSV, and it just sounds, like, way worse than it actually is just because of that history of RSV. I was like, "Babe, like, should we, like, go to a restaurant right now?

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'Cause, like, people are gonna be looking our way."

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And here's where I, I, I realized, like, oh, like, my wife is a G, because sh- she, like, every other day I'm, like, staring at a screen, like, doing virtual work from home stuff with Beehive and, like, internet things.

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She's, like, doing this every day. She's like, "Oh, this is, like, this is just life." Like, everyone- Yeah... with children just do this, and obviously you're mindful.

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Like, if they have a fever or if they're, like, sick, like, actually sick, don't, like, go throw 'em around other kids. Like, take them, keep 'em home from daycare, all that stuff.

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But, like, a cough that's been there for weeks and it's probably gonna be there for a few more weeks- Yeah... at some point you gotta just give and say, "You know what?

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We're gonna live our lives, and people might stare at us a little bit, but, like, they're gonna be fine, and we have to live our lives." Yeah. But what do you...

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Like, how do you and your wife and your family approach, and I don't think there's a right way, I'll preface that, so, like, your answer can be whatever your answer is.

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But, like, how do you deal with, like, sick kids, going to public, going out to restaurants, all that stuff? Yeah. So my wife and I are very social.

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We love going to breweries, we love going out to lunch, we love going to bars, like, whatever. I mean, we're not gonna go to, like, some dive bar and bring the kids and be like, "Ah, come on now."

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But, like- Neighborhood dive bar... we, we- Uh, starting young. I know. We, uh, but we love, like, specifically the brewery aspect and stuff. Yeah. And so we also just love grabbing dinner, whatever it is.

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I do think that when I'm... Like, let's just say I'm walking to my booth in a restaurant and a kid has a gnarly cough, I'm like, "Damn it. My kid's about to get sick now." I know.

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Um, I definitely, like, look at it negatively, but it sucks because I... Liam, same thing.... gnarly cough right now.

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He, he's had a fever, and his fever finally kicked, but now he's got this gnarly cough that will last for probably, like you said, 20, 27 weeks, right? So, [laughs] Yeah, the rest of his life. Yeah. Yeah.

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Like, so we will absolutely, because he has no fever, and because he's happy as can be, like we're gonna take him out in public. We can't just like sit in the house 24/7 because he's got this lingering cough.

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So that's the one thing is like if they're very clearly sick and they c- like they're very miserable, keep them at home. Yes. I definitely look at coughs, and when I hear coughs I think negatively.

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I'm like, ugh, God- Yeah... like why'd you bring your kid out?

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But that's so hypocritical because I'll take the kid out and have him cough, but then you'll be like, "Oh, you gotta drink your water right," or, "Make sure you finish- I know... chewing your food," right?

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Like you say some excuse. Are you choking? Yeah. Like I know for a fact he's not choking- [laughs] Yeah... but like I have to cover this up. [laughs] Yeah. Like you just have a parent who's like, "Are you choking?"

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I'm like, that's a gnarly cough. Like that's a sick cough, and that's okay, but you always [laughs] you always have to cover it up. Yeah. But I'm gonna continue this, I'm gonna continue this topic. Yes. I hate snot.

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I, I hate- Oh, dude, so much... my son's snot. I hate my snot. I hate snot. I hate snot. I think it's disgusting. Like if my wife were to sneeze right now and snot were to come out of her nose I'd be utterly disgusted.

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I wouldn't look at her for six weeks. [laughs] Such a specific- So I hate- [laughs] Such a specific hatred. I know. Oh, I did not know this about you. Yeah. This is so funny. I don't know what it is.

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Don't know what it is, but every time I go to daycare, every day, every day I go to daycare there's kids just like when they breathe a bubble the size of a, a golf ball comes out of their nose.

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I'm like, this is disgusting. Yeah. And I always have said I'll never let my be- my kids be the kids, the kids that go out and just have snot constantly running down their nose. Yeah. And luckily Liam's not.

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I don't know if we do something different. I have a lot of friends where their kids just always have snotty noses, and I'm like I think- Yeah... this is normal to have a snotty nose. Yes. But

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Liam, I don't know if it's something we do, like he's always got a really clean nose. Nice. We do have sots, that snot sucker where it's like- Oh, yeah... it's a tube and you suck it. Those are real. Yeah. Yeah.

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That thing. Yeah, yeah. And we, we use that almost- The grossest thing ever but I've done that a million times... grossest. Yeah, a million times. Yeah. And so I've been doing it all week.

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And so maybe that's why versus just using wipes- Yeah... to wipe it every time it comes out. I just suck the heck out of his nose. Maybe that's why he doesn't. Yeah, yeah. But- Yeah, yeah...

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dude, snotty kids, get away from me. [laughs] Get away, get away from me. Have you ever, with your kids or someone else's kids, like just been hanging out and all of a sudden they sneeze like in your mouth?

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Like just like, they're like... And then just like look at you in the, like in your face. Has that ever happened to you? Yeah. Liam's definitely sneezed in my face. Frustrating. Dude, it is insane.

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So we're, so with Everett like constantly, "Hey, gotta cover your mouth when you cough, bud. Gotta cover your mouth."

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And he's actually getting really good at it 'cause he's been sick like a, a billion times in the last 12 months.

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So it's like silver lining is he like knows how to behave now that he's been sick forever, but he [laughs] the other day I actually laughed because he knew what he was doing. He looked at me, I'm gonna try to do this.

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I'm gonna, I'm gonna actually move. I'm gonna move toward the camera. If the camera's me, he was like... [laughs] And then did it like five times in my face. Mm-hmm. I was like, "Bro- Dude, dude... what are you doing?"

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Like a real- Dude. And he just kinda like had this like little laugh and I was like, "N- no." Yeah. "Don't ever do that." And so- Dude...

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anyways, when you're a dad to little ones, they sneeze and cough in your face, sometimes in your mouth. Did you tell him no before he did it? Honestly,

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I was so shocked that it was even happening that I did, I told him no right after the first time. Okay. But it was so shocking to me, I wasn't expecting it. Absolutely should have said no before he did it.

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[laughs] Well, I- But I didn't. I was like, "What? What's happening?" Like I was so shocked.

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[laughs] I, I ask that because there's times where I'll look at Liam and I'll be like, "Don't cough in my face," and he'll do it purposely. Yeah. And I'm like- Oh, man... w- what do I, w- what do I do here?

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Especially when he's sick. Defiance. Oh my gosh, dude. Well, three-year-olds, man, I mean, they, they, they gonna defy. They gonna defy. They gonna defy. Yeah. It's, uh, it's an interesting battle.

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I mean, the sucker things, we used those a lot with Everett when he was one, two years old. We haven't done it- Yeah... in a while, but we actually, uh... Isn't it like dangerous to do too much? I can't remember.

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I haven't used it in like a year. I don't think like- I mean, I don't think you're supposed to do it all day every day. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Like, you're sucking their brains out of their nose at some point. [laughs] Yeah.

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Dude, it's, it's nuts. Like, you can like, you can like see the soul come out of their nostrils. You're like, you're like, "What?" Yeah. Dude. Can I, can someone do that to me, by the way? 'Cause that- I know...

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feels like it'd be actually kinda nice. [laughs] I know. I actually don't know- So...

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the amount of times you're supposed to do it, but I do know like with nose sprays for adults, like you're supposed to use it twice a day, so I'm just gonna assume twice a day. Sure. Yeah.

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No, I mean that, that checks out. Yeah, yeah. Shifting gears. You have a Tesla, right? I do. What, which Tesla do you have, out of curiosity? The, the Model 3. Oh, nice. Nice.

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Do you, do you feel like because you own a Tesla, two questions actually. One, that you're better than other people? [laughs] So that's my first question.

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And two, do you feel like you have to support Elon, Elon Musk to own a Tesla?

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And whether or not you do or, or not, it's up to you to share at your discretion, but I'm, I'm, I'm interested in like can you own a Tesla without being like a, a supporter of Elon Musk? Yeah. Yeah.

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So one, I don't think I'm better than other people. Um, but what I will say- Okay... and this is answering a third question- You are... that wasn't asked, is, um, I'm already better than other people. No, I'm kidding.

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So what, what I will say is- No, you're not. You're not, and you are. You, you're not kidding. You are better than other people. No. No, no, no, that's not true. But Model 3s are very affordable.

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Like very, very affordable. Yeah. And so when we got it, I definitely felt like this is like a nice...

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I, I went from like a 2015, 2013 Mazda 3 or whatever to this, and I was like, "Wow, like this is really, really nice," the leather's soft or the big screen, et cetera.

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So I definitely felt like when Teslas came out I was like, "Oh, my goodness, they're so luxurious." Yeah. They're really just an everyday car now. Like 30 grand, 30, 35 grand for a Tesla.

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So like it's really nothing crazy. Like the car market right now is wild. You can, a Honda Civic's more expensive. It is. So I felt like, "Dang, I'm driving around in something nice." I did feel like that.

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Mm-hmm.On the Elon comment, I don't feel like I'm a supporter of his, 'cause I bought this before any sort of outlandish actions, remarks or whatever that has happened.

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But I, I definitely drive around curious if other people are like, "This guy supports Elon. Like, he likes Nazis," and stuff like that. I'm like, that's not- Yeah... that's not why I bought this car.

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I bought it way before. I absolutely love it.

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I always told my wife, if they brought out a car that looked like a Tahoe, I would trade it in for that now that we have two kids, because I love that, like, dude, we spend maybe $40 on gas every two months now.

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Like, we rarely spend money on gas. The charging is $10 a month in our house. Like, it, it's just, it's so easy to get in and out. Like, there's so many great things about the Tesla that I love. Yeah.

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So I love the car, but it is, now it is like, I hope these people don't judge me for driving it, because regardless of whatever action he took, whether it was purposeful or not, like at the end of the day, like that's a very bad look and it, I think it- Yeah...

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does kind of rain down on me that, like, hey, he's got this car from this guy, but, um, so that's how I feel about that situation. It's interesting.

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Uh, uh, you know, I don't know who can see this, but here on my desk I have an Elon Musk biography, which is a very popular book.

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And so in reading it and buying it, I didn't necessarily, like, obsess over him as a person, I just thought, hey, Elon Musk is really interesting, this is a great book, it's world-renowned.

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And so I bought it and I read it. Read some of it, let me preface. I did not read the whole thing 'cause it's massive. But I think I, I kind of live in this very middle

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ethereal state of being with supporting things you buy that I think is uncomfortable for people, and I- maybe I'm wrong. I'll, I'll say that I might be wrong on this, but like, I personally love to eat Chick-fil-A.

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I like wearing Nike stuff, but I don't personally think sweatshops should exist. But like,

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to me, like, thinking that something shouldn't be the case in the world doesn't translate to, like, you can't eat a sandwich for... Like, I don't know. I- again, am I wrong? Maybe.

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But like, I- like, to me there's like two, there are two different things. Like, one is like an ethics thing, and

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you know, my background, I've, I've spent $100,000 learning history and philosophy and theology, so I've spent way too much time studying ethics in my life.

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I'm like, what I'm eating for lunch and, like, moral ethics are two different parts of my brain, and they're- Yeah... completely separate. Again, should they be? Maybe not always, but, like, they are. Yeah.

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And so I don't know. I feel like you can drive a Tesla and think nothing of Elon Musk. Like, neither support him nor not support him. It's just like, "No- Yeah... this is a sweet car." Yeah.

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Like to me, I'm like they're, they're unrelated. But I don't know. What do you think? I- is it related when you buy something, when you eat somewhere to, like, support the company? What do you think?

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I think the exact same way as you, but I think that you can absolutely make the argument, like, hey, well, you are giving Chick-fil-A money, and Chick-fil-A believes in, you know, X, Y, and Z.

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I can totally understand that argument. I love Chick-fil-A. I go to Chick-fil-A every single Saturday morning with my son. Liam, we go- Every Friday. See, look at that.

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Every- See, every Saturday morning he has sports at 9:00 AM, we go at 8, 8:00 AM to just have a date. Look at that, Chick-fil-A sauce on his desk. It just- This guy just had- No, I have two.

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This is, this is, I have three. [laughs] This is just leftover, this is leftover from lunch yesterday. It just... I just eat Chick-fil-A every day. I love Chick-fil-A. I actually used to have a, a problem.

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It was on my campus at UH and we had, we had Cougar Bucks or Cougar Cash or whatever, and my mom would always fill that up and I'd go to Chick-fil-A- Amazing... seven days a week. Yeah. Well, six. But all that to say is,

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me, like, I'm not supporting somebody or something and, like, what they morally believe in if I buy it. Yeah. It's like I really love Chick-fil-A, they have the best chicken out of any fast food place.

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Like, it is a really, really good food. And their service is amazing. The people that work there are really nice, almost every single Chick-fil-A you go to. Now, what I will say

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is the extreme version of this is, like, if you are a supporter of Kanye West, and you went- Yeah... and you bought his swastika shirt to support Yeezy, just, like, because you support him- Yeah... that's F'd up.

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It's like- Like, that's, that's like- Yeah... that's absurd. That is horrendous, that's disgusting, like, horrible. Yeah.

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And you can't just make one, you know, "Kanye West has helped me out throughout my entire life," like his stories, et cetera, like, "He's my idol." Bullshit. Like, that's, that's completely different.

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Um, so I think that that is a, a scenario where you cannot support something like that. Like, um- Right...

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but yeah, buying a Tesla, I don't know, I think it's definitely a, a weirder look now than it was a year ago to go buy a Tesla, for sure. Um, going to Chick-fil-A- Yeah... dude, I'm gonna eat Chick-fil-A.

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But that doesn't mean that you support, yeah, what either the company believes in. But yeah, I, I, I'm on the same exact page as you when it comes to, like, your thoughts on that stuff. Yeah.

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And I'd love to know, if you're listening to this and you're on YouTube, uh, I think you can even comment on Spotify now, but if you're anywhere that you can comment, I'd love to know if you think it is supporting that company or that person if you end up purchasing something, even if you don't morally support them.

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I'd love to, to know that argument and, and hear some other people's thoughts. Yeah.

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I'm having PTSD flashbacks to my deductive logic class at University of South Carolina, which is before I transferred to Clemson, and the, the guy was, he would've said hundreds of times in that semester, "This is a truth functionally true tautology."

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And he would basically go through all of these different logical deductions of, like, in this case, you support and don't buy, you do buy and don't support, you buy and support, you don't buy and don't support.

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And then- Yeah... all of the ethical implications of each of those four different deductions.

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And I think all of this conversation really leads me to say it, to me, is way more complicated than you simply can't buy that because it means you support it.

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I do get and empathize and sympathize with the people that think that that has to be the case. Yeah. I just don't personally think it has to be the case- Yeah... in my current state of being.

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And so-I, I, I reserve the right to change my mind on this, right? I want to make that clear, but currently I'm like, "You know, I don't personally see it that way." Yeah. Yeah, yeah.

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I don't, I don't think it's black and white. I don't think it's a black-and-white conversation. Let's talk about sales real quick. I have a couple thoughts on, on sales I wanted to bring your way. Ooh, let's hear it.

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So this week at Beehiiv, we were just kind of doing an audit of some of our sales processes, trying to figure out, okay, where do all the notes live, you know, what probability and forecast looks like through each stage of the sales pipeline, when the handoffs occur, uh, outbound sales motion, inbound sales motion.

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Just kind of a big, I think you should do it every quarter personally, an, an audit. Like, okay, what's going on here?

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And one of the thoughts I had was, wow, we really need to centralize our notes in a much more functionally true way where it's like, okay, this is the source of truth for this account. Here are the notes.

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And I wanted to ask you with some of your experience and then now working at Demo and all the different ways that you've of course learned tools and ways of taking notes, like how do you take notes on sales calls?

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What's your, what's your go-to? I'm gonna expand this further than sales. Um, but I have a really easy answer, and it's Fathom. I'm obsessed with Fathom. I...

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So I started using Fathom like a year ago or so when I first started Demo because it was free. It was free for every rep.

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Um, I think they might have changed their plans because they recently got funding, but their AI overviews after the call ends, immediately after the call ends, are unbelievably accurate.

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I don't need to touch a single thing. So Fathom's the way that I do that, but I literally, right before this [chuckles] right before this recording session, I was on a, um...

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What we're doing right now at Demo is we're building out a massive product roadmap, and then we're measuring out every single feature of how long it would take to build it, what's the impact from like a traffic perspective, user perspective, customer perspective.

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Like, we're measuring out all of these things right now. And what I love is like the fact that when we're on these calls, like I, now I ha- immediately have the transcript, I send it over.

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But when we're on these calls, like I go back and I can just like search anything that we talked about and, and be like, "Hey, this is what we said," all of that fun stuff.

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So I would say on every single call, customer call, and of course customer support can help and, and look at all these notes, all that fun stuff.

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So at customer calls, um, engineering calls, team calls, sales calls, I use Fathom. I don't, I don't even... I used to write my notes on paper because I'm a paper and pen kind of guy. No, I don't have paper anymore.

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I just have a whiteboard. So I use Fathom for every single call, and I'm, I'm obsessed with it.

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I think it's one of the best tools anybody can have at their organization, so I highly recommend that people check out Fathom because it's sick. I love it.

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And I remember you and I were on a sponsor call two months ago, uh, selling, selling Two Dads in Tech, and you sent me the Fathom notes after.

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And it was the first time I had experienced Fathom, and so I, I, I actually DM'd you. I was like, "Yo, this [chuckles] is actually incredibly sick." And so I, I love it.

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Uh, from what I've seen and what I've used, uh, highly recommend Fathom as well. And you wanna know what's really interesting about it? What's that? They are our sponsor for today's episode. Hey.

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[laughs] So Chad, [laughs] I bet you didn't see that coming. You just got swindled. [laughs] Oh. Boom, boom, boom, boom. I don't even use it. No, I'm kidding. Swindler. Swindler.

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[blows raspberry] [laughs] I literally do use it for e- dude, I'm genuinely obsessed, um. And what's really cool about Fathom... What's up, Fathom team, if you're listening.

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What's really cool about them is they were one of our early access customers, so before we even had a product at Demo, they paid for us. Love y'all, will always love y'all, will always support y'all.

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I was thinking the other day about Gong, and I know that there's a lot of... I've, I thought I saw it on LinkedIn where Gong talks about all the ankle biters. Yeah.

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And then I start to wonder, well, are there any calf biters? Ooh. Or are there any like thigh biters? Ooh, ooh. Are there any things that are like starting to creep up on them?

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And I really think that Fathom might be the one that is like- Okay... all right, this is, this is biting a little bit more than my ankle.

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But yeah, I've always wondered if, um, I've always wondered if like people are starting to eat some of the cake, but who knows, man? Great tool. Great tool. Yes. Great team. Fathom, check it out. One thing I've realized,

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particularly in the last three years working in newsletter tech at Beehiiv, is the cake is pretty big, and not just in our industry. Mailchimp, for example, sold- Mm... to Intuit in 2021 for $11 billion. Mailchimp.

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So that's one of 40 different platforms I can think of that enable email sending in some facet, not all newsletter platforms, but the pie is big.

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I think market share is a lot bigger in a lot of diff- i-in a lot of industries, more than a lot of people would probably guess. Isn't Mailchimp the largest bootstrapped acquisition ever? I believe it is.

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I could be mistaken here. Maybe you don't know that, but I believe- Uh, I don't know off the top of my head. I know if Figma had gone through, which it didn't, with Adobe, it would have been. But- Dude, crazy...

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that's a great fact that we should find out and put in the show notes [laughs] 'cause I- [laughs] Yeah, yeah. Is it a fact or not? I might be making this up. I know. I know.

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Um, but you, you've asked me a lot of questions. I've got a question for you. Go for it. There's a huge debate right now. I'm seeing it everywhere. I go to the gym. I go to the grocery store. I go to the library.

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I actually don't go there, but if I ever did go to the library, I know that there's two things I would see: Stanley water bottles and Owala water bottles. I've gotta ask you, I'm Team Stanley, but- Okay...

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do you have a preference of Stanley versus Owala? And if so, tell me why. I just bought a new water bottle this week. Which one? And I had guests in town who were just staying with us.

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They're old time friends, went to college with them, and they were staying with us, and I was like looking at water bottles and I was like, "Guys, here's the deal. I need to drink more water.

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I want it to be easy, and I don't necessarily travel much. I have a gym water bottle. It's not gonna be for the gym. It's gonna be like the home water bottle that I'm actually gonna use.

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I think I'm gonna get a Stanley, but what do you guys think?" And both of them, like... lunacy, were like, "You need to get an Owala." Mm. And I was like, "First of all, shut your mouth." No, I'm just kidding.

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[laughs] Have you seen Step Brothers? Sh- sh- shut, shut your mouth. Yeah. Shut, shut your mouth. I had never... This is crazy, I had never heard of Owala until this week. Wow. Never heard of it.

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Never once heard of that brand in my entire life. And I was like, I'm pretty tuned into, like, stuff, so I was surprised.

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I was like, two people in unison independently telling me I need to get an Owala water bottle, and I've never heard of this company. So I looked into it and I was like, ah, this looks kinda like a gimmick.

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So I'm like, let me ask Twitter, 'cause I trust Twitter more than my two close friends. [laughs] I went to Twitter, I was like, I was like, "Hey, what should I get? Looking for a new water bottle. What's the best?"

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And like, not a lot of people reacted to this or, or responded, but three people, one after another, all totally unrelated, said, "Owala, Owala, Owala." And I was like, what?

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So anyways, I got an Owala water bottle and I tell you what, this thing is awesome and here's why. Here's specifically why. Yes. Tell me why.

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The top, the top is protected, so what I'm actually drinking out of is under this clasp, which is like, oh, that's not very novel, like, whatever. A lot of, a lot of water bottles do that.

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But if you can see here, there is a s- like a, a straw, if you can see that. Yeah. Yeah, yeah. Yep. A straw and a pour, like, motion. And so the actual part I'm putting my mouth on is always protected, but also, look.

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Straw. Doesn't even look like a straw. Doesn't even act like a straw, but it's- Interesting... doing what a straw does, but it's actually concealed the whole time.

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So I've noticed already in the last, like, three days since this arrived, I've had at least three or four times as much water because of that straw function. Yeah.

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'Cause like, ultimately, like, when I'm on a call, I don't wanna be doing this. It just looks weird, and I'm in calls all day.

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But it's very easy to, like, low profile just suck through this straw that doesn't look like a straw while I'm talking to people. So- Yeah... I love it.

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I got a 40 ounce, which is huge, and I go through two to three a day, and I'm like, I feel the difference in my hydration. Highly recommend Owala.

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But I wanna ask you the same question, because I know the debate now that Owala is on the map and I know it exists as of four days ago. [laughs] Yep. [laughs] What water bottle between... I mean, there's so many.

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There- you, you mentioned Stanley and Owala, but like, there's Yeti and there's, uh- Oh, yeah... Nathan, and there's- Hydro Flask... oh, there's like- Hydro Flask is big... four... Hydro Flask. There's like 40 of them.

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It's insane. What do you drink out of and why? So I'm a Stanley guy, for sure. Um, why? I got it as a gift, so it's really hard to, to not use it. But- Yeah... I'm gonna give you my take on Owala.

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'Cause I went to- Please... Urban Outfitters the other day and I saw Owala, and they had a lot of cool... They had Owala and Stanley's right next to each other, and they had a lot of cool colors of Owala.

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And I was consumed by the hype of Owala, just like my friend Daniel Burke. So I was like, ah, I'm gonna switch it out. Let me tell you what I don't like. Can you show me that water bottle real quick? Yes. Yes.

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And how many ounces is that? Straight up black. This is 40. And guess what? That won't fit in your cup holder in the car. Not in my MDX. We have an Acura MDX and we have a Toyota Sienna.

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The Sienna has massive cup holders. Yeah, massive. Okay. So it, it did fit this morning when I brought it to breakfast. 90% of cars won't fit in the cup holder. So- Not the 40 ounce... the alternative- You are correct...

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the alternative is get the regular size Owala, which does fit, but then I'm filling it up so much more. So what I love, and I got the one with, like, the sticky grip on it, so it kind of actually is tearing apart.

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Mm-hmm. So Stanley, what... I actually emailed them, I was like, "Yo, get me a new one," 'cause it's, like- Took the... Yeah... like, right there. Yeah, yeah. Check that out. Just ruined. But- You just need to, like...

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You just need to have a, a car fire and go viral- I know, I know... with your car un- unscathed, and you'll get, like, free Stanley's for life or something. I know. I know. But all that to say, fits in every cup holder.

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Yes. Still large enough to where I don't need to fill it up a million times a day. Yeah. I drink three of these before 7:00 AM. So- That's it... and what is it? This is 40 ounces. Like, so that was my big- Yeah.

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I love it... that was my big thing. I was actually going to buy- Yes... an Owala. My buddy said- Yep... "Good luck putting the big one inside of your cup holder in your car," and I was like- Yep...

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"That is really annoying. I'm not gonna buy one." I, I literally had a Stanley just like yours in my car, about to buy it, and then I asked the question. And ultimately it turned...

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Like, I, I knew buying this, like, it's not gonna fit in most cup holders.

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The van that we drive most often it does fit in, which is awesome, but the MDX that we drive usually when we're not with both kids, just 'cause it's a smaller car, it doesn't fit in that, and so it's like I throw it in the seat or, like, hold it in between my legs or something.

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And what I had to just decide is I'm probably not gonna take this water bottle with me but 5 or 10% of the time. And it's 'cause I work from home- Mm-hmm...

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and the, the goal of the water bottle was to drink more while I'm working at my desk. And so 90, 95% of the time it's gonna be right here.

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I do have other water bottles that fit in cup holders, and so if I happen to go out or be on a road trip or something, like, I'll just either deal with the fact that this doesn't fit in the cup holder or have a different water bottle.

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But, like, that- Yeah... that was almost a deal breaker for me as well, because it- Yeah... definitely does not fit in most cup holders. So frustrating for me. Sure is.

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And I actually saw, about a year ago, um, you know, I don't know how to say her last name, but Jen Allen Knuth on LinkedIn. Mm, yeah. I mean, that's close enough. That's how I would say it. Okay.

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And maybe the K is silent. Uh, that's the other guess I'd have. But I saw that she made a post about this whole S- Stanley and Owala debate.

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She switched to Owala as well, and I think the selling point was the fact that if this falls, I'm spilling my water. Like, it's definitely coming out. Yes.

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Now, Stanley did come out with a solution, my wife has it, where it just, like, clips downwards and, like, you can't spill it if it falls anymore, so- Good... uh, they did solve that solution.

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At the end of the day, if Owala came out with a water bottle exactly like you just showed me, but the bottle- Yeah... was skinny and it was still a 40 ouncer- Yeah... I would probably go and buy it.

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So now the question is will Stanley or Owala sponsor us first? Because we will-Be required to both become your fans if you- Yeah... stick to the podcast. Exclusively. I won't drink water.

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Even if I'm at a restaurant, I'd say, "Fill up my Owala. Fill up my Stanley." I wouldn't even drink out of the cups. Don't give me this stupid regular glass cup, you th- twat.

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[laughs] All right, dude, so I was sitting in the, uh, I was sitting in the living room earlier.

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I was kind of making some edits to the podcast that's coming out, and my wife was just giving me random questions to ask, and I was like, "These are great, great questions." So she did give me this one question.

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She phrased it a little bit differently, so I'm gonna phrase it in a way that I'd like to say it, and it's what do you think is the average amount that people have saved up that are in their 30s?

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Let's say at 30 years old, if they are in the corporate world. And so I'm not saying like- Okay...

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yeah, I don't wanna say every 30-year-old because I think that'd bring it down, and I hate saying that just given the way that the world is and the median income. But yes, corporate world, you're 30 years old.

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What do you think the average amount is that that 30-year-old has saved up? Do you have the correct answer? I don't. I have no idea, and I was...

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And there's also another caveat which could be like a household or a single person. I don't know. Single person? Yeah. If we're taking the average, you're talking about in the United States corporate world? Yeah. Yeah.

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Why not? Keep it, keep it simple. I'm gonna pool together everyone who's single, married with kids, without kids. Just I'm gonna- Okay... guess the average.

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And my guess, and you actually, you should ask ChatGPT while I guess this. We should find out the answer before the episode's over 'cause I would be super interested.

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My guess is that it's way higher than we think because of how many rich, like crazy rich people are inflating the average.

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So I think the average by 30, savings, and that's savings account, 401[k], investments, liquid cash. Oh, I would guess $275,000. What were you gonna say? Repeat that. I didn't wanna, I, I interrupted you. I wanna...

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Are you talking about cash, like liquid cash, or are you talking about everything? Investments, invest- I didn't know if you said including or- Well, let me ask you that. Let me ask you that.

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Are we talking about full net worth, like including a home that you have a mortgage on, and cars that are assets, and like anything you could sell for money, or like investments, 401[k]- Mm...

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cash account, you know, CDs? That's a good question. I'm gonna say liquid cash that you can spend right now. Liquid cash. Like even like not including investments, like, like- Not including-... shares, stocks. Yeah.

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Ah, dang, this is hard 'cause I think it's def- 'Cause like the richest people don't have cash. I, I know, don't have- They're- I know. They're spending all of it. That's like how you get more, you know? All right.

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Let's just say, yeah, let's just say in stocks, in your 401[k], cash, et cetera. Yeah, I mean, my, my guess would be average 30-year-old is gonna be $275,000. And again, I think that is way higher

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than most people, but I think the average is probably way higher than we think because of the millionaires out there who have way more than 275,000. So I think I would answer it two ways.

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It's like 275,000 if you're considering every single 30-year-old in corporate America.

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I think probably more people have less than 100,000 at 30 years old, and that's because I think most people are still living paycheck to paycheck 'cause inflation is insane.

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And I think the most people just population-wise live in the biggest and most expensive cities. You think New York City, LA, San Francisco- Mm-hmm... Seattle, Miami.

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Like you have these pockets, Chicago, of, of the most people, of course, affecting the average of the 30-year-olds and their net worths and, you know, liquid cash that probably aren't saving much because they spend it all because it's so expensive to live there.

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But- Yeah... I don't know. I'm, uh... You may have already asked ChatGPT. If not, I want, I wanna know your answer, is what is the average? What do you think?

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ChatGPT hasn't given me a really good answer, so how about you look it up? Okay. You're, you're better at using it. I think- All right. All right... I think, uh, I think it's less. I mean, it's, it is tough.

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Um, but I'm thinking specifically 30. I'm not thinking a 50-year-old that has also built their net worth over time. I'm thinking you are 30 years old. Oh, I think it's probably like 110,000.

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I'm gonna go a, a decent amount under you, and I'm gonna say I think that it's around 110,000.

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Yes, you have those people that are really wealthy and they are inflating it, but I also just know a lot of my friends even still to this day, like especially the single ones that are just living it up, partying every weekend and like they're just kinda living, you know, paycheck to paycheck where they're just not really saving much.

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Um, so I don't know. I'm, I'm gonna say 110,000, which is much less than yours, but I don't know if there's a real answer or at least we're not gonna find 100% accurate. I'm gonna read, I'm gonna read the real answer.

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Let's do it. Okay, do it. These sources, I'll tell you what the sources are that are giving. Guardianlife.com, Experian, Ally, LendingClub, fool.com, Edward Jones.

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So like there's some pretty financially astute sources here, and I'm just gonna, I'm gonna spend the next 60 seconds reading what ChatGPT said so that someone who's listening can correct this if it's totally off base.

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Determining the average savings for individuals in the United States by 30 involves examining both actual savings data and recommended savings benchmarks. So actual savings data.

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According to the Federal Reserve's survey of consumer finances as of 2022, okay, we're three years out of date, but it's close, US residents under 35 have an average retirement savings of $49,130

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and a median retirement savings, shockingly, of 18,880. The average savings account balance for individuals under 35 is $11,200.

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Recommended savings benchmarks, it goes into all these different sources from Experian, but by age 30 you should have the amount-Equal to one years of salary in your savings account by age 30. Those numbers are way

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lower than I would've expected. I thought 275 was out of this world. Um- Right. I, I'm like, am I like an idiot? I don't think you know what a dollar is. [laughs] I was, I was...

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I definitely shot way higher than I thought was average because I was try- I, I thought the number was way higher than I would've answered, but the number's actually substantially lower.

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Like, I probably would've landed around 75 to 150 if I guessed like, at, s- like, this is what I would guess if I wasn't answering this trick question, but these numbers are like shockingly low.

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But I think it's like, it shows I'm privileged to think that, but also like $11,200 by age 35, I- most people aren't retiring. I mean, that's what that means is you're not retiring.

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Unless, unless the account balance is specifically to the literal cash in a savings account, which it could be. Like, there's so many questions I have.

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[laughs] And I'm not a financial expert or a financial advisor, so I'm not really qualified to even talk to this, but these are shocking numbers. [laughs] You know, honestly, I don't think that they shock me.

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Do you wanna know the very first iteration of this question? It was more... The question was more so revolved around friend groups, and if you ever wonder how much money like ex-friends have.

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Like you're, "Oh, I wonder how much money like that couple has, or that couple has," and like you kinda like, I don't know, right?

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Like, it's not a judgment thing, but it's more so like- Yeah, like what do they, what do they drive? What neighborhood do they live in?

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Yeah, like are they spending more, are they spending more on like these material things, and they don't- Yeah... really have that much money? Like, I always- Yeah... wonder that.

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And so it stemmed from there, but I was like, that could come off like some sort of way, but I also think that is what people think about, but they don't talk about, right? Like, I think- For sure... at least, you know.

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So I was like, eh. But I worded it in a more friendly, vague way. But yeah, that doesn't shock me 'cause I do have a lot of friends in their 30s that are just like still living check to check- Trapping...

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and not putting anything away. Trapping. They're just, they're just- Yeah. And they, and they like it. Like, they think they're having a, a really fun time just going out, doing their thing. So, yeah.

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I have, I have a final question I wanna ask you, and I think it's a great way to wrap up this episode. But before I do, I think here's my little financial advice that is not financial advice.

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If you work at a company and they match a 401[k], give money to your 401[k]. There are so many gurus out there like, "Oh, 401[k], like..." It's free money. I've been giving to a 401[k] for 10 years. Just match.

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I'm not like- Yeah... maxing out because like I just... I'd rather control money and not max- Yeah, yeah... out a 401[k], but if you're not doing your company match, like you're literally leaving money on the table.

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That's like basically you should be viewing a match from the company as additional salary- Yeah... because it's money the company's giving you for your retirement.

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So anyways, it grows over time, compound interest, all that good stuff. So I completely agree with the 401[k] thing.

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I also think that if you're, if, especially if you have a public company, and they have an ESPP, an employee stock purchase program, I also think you should contribute to that.

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This is not financial advice, but I'm saying this because I have a... my best friend texted me the other day, and he was like, "This is crazy.

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My wife works at X company, and she has only put 97K of her money into the employee stock purchase program, and it's $257,000, and we're selling 160K of it right now." So like, again, like you said, free money.

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It was just they only put 97K in out of their paycheck. They didn't really even, they didn't even realize that it was coming out, right? Because it never hit their bank account.

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And next thing you know, you have 3X what was in there.

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But on the 401[k] side, I think like two years ago, three years ago, is when I just started to max it out every year and just kinda take away from like some of the things that maybe I would spend on.

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Um, and I hope to max out again this year. We'll see. We're buying a new home and stuff, so- Awesome... maybe it'll be a little tricky, but like you said, free money. Um, and it- Free money... it compounds.

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It compounds, dude. Yes. When you are retiring and at, some people are like, "Oh, you shouldn't have to wait till 65 to get your..." Whatever. I totally understand that agreement. I think the same way as well.

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But when you're 65 and you get that money, you'll be like, "Oh, my goodness." [laughs] Yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And it's a cushion.

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Like, like, you know, if your mindset is like, "Well, I, I really hope I make a lot of money before then and don't necessarily need this at 65," like you're never gonna be like upset from like a million dollars- Yeah...

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just like showing up at 65. [laughs] Like it's gonna be great. Even if a million dollars is less by the time you're 65, it's, it's not gonna be like enough less to be nothing unless you're a billionaire- Yeah...

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and then you won't care. But here's my question. I just remembered it. If you had to choose between getting out of student debt, let's say you're, you graduated 24. 22, I guess, is more, is more normal.

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Say you graduate at 22, and you have $100,000 in student debt, and you're, you have two choices.

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Use your money straight out of college to enjoy your 20s, so let's say eight years of like living it up, going out with your friends, like you're, you're sort of living paycheck to paycheck.

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Maybe you're saving some, but ultimately, like you're like, "Look, I'm paying my minimums on my student loans, and I'm living it up." You can do that. It's option one.

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Or option two is you're very frugal, and you're living a modest life, maybe even living with your parents, but by age 30 you are completely out of debt. Which option would you take? The first option by miles.

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I feel like the- Miles. Miles. The most fun I had in my life was when I graduated college and about like the six to seven years afterwards where I was paying my minimum.

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125 bucks a month towards student loan was my minimum, and so I was paying my minimum every single month. There was no chance I was gonna pay more, and I was like, "Screw this." Like, "I'm gonna have fun."

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And luckily, sales has done well enough for me to where I was able to pay off my student loans. But you'll be able to get that money later, assuming that you're on a good track and things go well. Yep. Um, but yeah.

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I just feel like you, from 20 to 30, man, there's like just so much life to be lived in that time.And I think you gotta live it up. But it sounds like you agree with that.

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You would rather pay your minimum and then over time pay- Yes... off the loans? Yeah. I, we, we netted, like, $125,000 from this home we sold. We, we bought this, like, just shy of a foreclosure in Chicago- Mm...

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suburbs. Barely livable. Spent three months before we even moved in renovating, and then 18 months while we lived in it continuing to renovate. Bought it for 119, sold it for 255.

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Best financial decision we made in our early marriage. It was before kids, um, not before dog, but she was just there- Yeah... while we were, like, throwing, you know, sledge hammers through the wall and stuff. Uh,

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but what we did with that is we took about half and half. We, we bought a car in cash 'cause we needed a car. Yeah. And it was like $10,000, so not, like, the craziest car ever.

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S- we put $45,000 of that toward private loans. So we had some federal, they're like hilariously low interest rates, like 3%. We're like- Yeah... "Forget that."

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Like this is, financially we don't care about that right now, but the private, let's get out of the private debt. So like 45, 50,000 of that went straight to the private debt. We had no credit card debt.

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We had been very smart about that early on, just paying for things with credit cards and getting out, even with this home renovation. But I think being frugal about your debt

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such that you're not imprisoned by it is important, but also I think the easiest way, and this is, this is gonna sound so cocky and I don't want it to, but I think it's true.

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The easiest way to have more financial flexibility is to make more money. And it sounds like, well, obviously, Daniel.

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It's like, well, that's, everyone would love to make more money, but I don't think enough people live their lives that way. They're like, "How can I save money? How can I penny pinch? How can I reduce grocery costs?"

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I'm like, "You can't." Life is expensive. Yeah. And the easiest way to get out of debt and to live differently and to up level is actually just to make more money. Yeah.

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And so I think in the last 10 plus years of my career, that's been my mindset is I'm like, "Okay, I'm not gonna be a, a slave to debt." That sucks. Yeah.

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And people who are imprisoned by their credit card debt, student loans, like, figure out how to deal with that. Like, that should be a priority.

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But if you're not trapped by it, your priority should be making more money that grows- Yeah... in a higher interest in comparison to the interest you're paying on- Yeah... the debt you have. Because ultimately- Yeah...

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the math is you will net positive if you make more [laughs] from doing that. It's a, it's a hot topic, though. I'm sure a lot of people listening to this disagree.

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Uh, I know people are all about Dave Ramsey, and a great guy, but not everything he says is biblical truth. [laughs] As, as far as- Yeah. Yeah... it pertains to, to finances. So, you know- Yeah...

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there's a few different ways to approach it. Yep. And there is a lot of ways to make more money on the internet nowadays. Right. And even not on the internet.

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Go drive, go drive Uber, Uber Eats or DoorDash for 10 hours a week- Get that... and you'll make another $1,500 a week. I've done it, too. I did it in college. Like- Yep...

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there's a, there are literally so many ways to just make money- So many ways... in the next, in the next seven days. Like- Yeah... so I agree with that. I was never actually a big pay off my debt kinda guy.

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I was actually almost against it. I was like, "I'll get to it." Like, I, I have these payments. Yeah. I'm used to making these payments.

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But then we brought in a financial advisor and, you know, they're al- they're always like, "Get rid of your debt." And so I, I let him- Yeah... I, I think we kinda talked about this over text.

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At, at proof point I was, I was lucky enough to do, have a decent year, and so I was like, "Look, do what you will with this money." He was like, "I'm paying off all your debt." And I was like, "All right. Fine."

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And it kinda hurt. I was like, gosh, like, I'm never gonna see that money again. But- No, it doesn't feel like it's doing anything for you. I know. That payment, you're like, oh, just like burning money.

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But, like, actually- Yeah... you're not. It's, it's, it's a very difficult thing to do. I just spent- Yeah, it is... in the last two weeks I spent, like, 15 grand toward credit cards.

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You know, we spent for this Europe trip. We- Yeah... we did a whole bunch of stuff on credit cards just for, like, points in the last few weeks or few months. But I, I paid it all off at once and I was like, "Eh."

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Ugh, I hate that. I was like, there's so much good stuff you can do- Yeah... with money. And you're just like- Yeah... "No, this is the credit cards." But, like, you spent it. So, like, in a, in a way it's- Yeah...

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it's not your money anymore, but, like, it feels like it is when it's in a checking account, you know? So. Yeah. Yeah, yeah. So. And, and one last comment there and we can close out.

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On that credit card thing, I don't know what it is. Like you said, 15 gay credit card, uh, payment at the end of the month, that gets me so anxious. And it gets my wife so anxious as well. Yeah.

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Like, we hate seeing a big number, so what we do is treat it almost like a debit card. Everything that we buy, we pay it off immediately. Yeah. So we, we pay our credit card off about every, I'd say every three days.

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Two times a week we pay it off because we don't- Yeah... want a balance on the credit card. And some people might be like, "Well, well, the credit bureaus will like it if you do it once a month," and blah, blah, blah.

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I don't care. I don't like when at the end of the month I pay my house and I gotta go pay 15K or whatever- Yeah... 7K, 3K, whatever it is. Yeah. I hate that. Anyways, this was a good episode. Yeah. Daniel. Love that.

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Where in the heck- This was a great episode... do people find us? Oh, by the way, sick gold chain, sick shirt, sick haircut. Thank. Let's see it, baby. Ooh. Your show is- Barbara Baron. Barbara Baron hooked me up.

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Come on, Barbara Baron. Yes, sir. If you're watching this, Baron, Barbara Baron. [laughs] Where did they find us? Where did you find us? Twodadsintech.com.

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If you're interested in sponsoring us, we lean pretty heavily into our LinkedIn profiles. We have about 60,000 followers and we get anywhere from three to six million impressions across both of our posts every month.

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So sponsoring Two Dads and Tech is not just sponsoring this episode and these episodes, it's actually getting partnered with our posts on LinkedIn and elsewhere on the internet. And so if you're interested, reach out.

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You can email me directly, daniel@twodadsintech.com, or you can fill out a form at twodadsintech.com. Please go hit the subscribe and follow button on TikTok, Instagram, and YouTube.

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Spotify, Apple, all those places, please find us there. Show some love. Give a good review. Tell your friends. That all means a lot to us. And with that, we are out. See you, Daniel. We are out.

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See you next time, brother.