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Should everyone have a kid? Absolutely not. Having children is terrible for quality of life. Quality of life changes astronomically. I think joy is a decision.

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Having a kid will ruin your quality of life of not having a kid. Happiness is circumstantial. I think you are born an entrepreneur or you're not. Kids' lives are being detrimentally affected by their parents.

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Do you think the world's too populated? Thanos was onto something. [laughs] Everyone remember, we're just two random dudes in tech talking about random stuff. [upbeat music] Good morning, and happy birthday, Troy.

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My mom sent me a news article, and I'm just gonna read it right off the bat because I think it's a great way for us to start off this episode. Having children is terrible for quality of life.

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This is a headline from The Atlantic about four years ago, and I'm just gonna read this en- this entire snippet so we can jump into it.

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The truth about what parenthood means for happiness is a lot more complicated than, I think, social media and a lot of the headlines will have you think.

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Studies show that when a child is born, parents experience a decrease in happiness that doesn't go away for a long time, in addition to a drop in marital satisfaction that doesn't usually recover until children leave the house.

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Hm. After all, having children, particularly when they're young, involves financial struggle, sleep deprivation, stress, and more.

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For mothers, there's also, in many cases, the physical strain of pregnancy, breastfeeding, so on and so forth, and children can turn a cheerful and loving romantic partnership into a zero-sum battle over who gets to sleep and work and who doesn't.

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But, and this is where the interesting conversation starts, the love that we usually have toward our children means that our choice to bring them into the existence of the world has value above and beyond whatever effect they have on our happiness.

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So it really begs the question of, do children lead to happiness, or do people who love having children and who choose to start a family find that there is more to life than being happy?

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Just, just jump right in. Just jump right in. Yeah, so I, I think it's, it, I think it's a little bit subjective here. Um, I think does children... Do children lead to happiness is probably depends on the person.

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It's funny 'cause I texted you today saying, "I don't think, I don't think a lot of people should have children," or something like that, so this is very similar to that vein. Um, do children bring you happiness?

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I'm gonna go ahead and give the blanket statement of no. But I think that happiness can be defined in many different ways, to go ahead and throw some caveats in there. What's the difference between happiness and joy?

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I think joy is temporary. I think happiness is, is more permanent. I think, like, are you happy versus are you finding joy? You see what I'm saying? I think the opposite, but I, I think I- You think the opposite...

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I, I, I'm pick- I'm picking up what you're throwing down, but I think it's- Maybe- I think you maybe meant the opposite, too... maybe they're both the same thing, though. No, because, so w- here's...

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I'm thinking of a scenario. I'm on a rollercoaster. I'm on a jet ski. I'm happy in that moment, and I have joy. But joy, like, I'm, I'm enjoying that moment. I'm thinking, like, joy, enjoying.

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So I'm enjoying that moment. That moment's done. I'm not finding joy anymore, but I might still be happy as a human. I might still be happy with my life. So did I say that backwards? Did I say wrong? I think...

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No, no, no, I, I hear what you're saying. I think joy, here's how I would define it. I think joy is a decision. You can choose to be joyful and exhibit joy regardless of your circumstances.

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I think happiness is circumstantial. I think things make you happy. I think happiness is almost the extension of an emotion. Joy, to me, that's not an emotion.

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Joy is a state, a state of being, a, a, a, a, a life characteristic. I'm going to be joyful even though- Yeah. Yeah, yeah... I got laid off, or my house got hit by lightning, or something crazy happened.

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I'm gonna be joyful even though this is terrible. Yeah. You're not happy. Definitely not happy. Yeah, yeah. House got struck by lightning, ain't nobody happy about that. But you can choose regardless of that.

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So all of this, the difference between joy and happiness, is what do children bring? And w- we're making blanket statements here, but children bring a lot of happiness, but they also bring a lot of the opposite.

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Yeah, yeah. [laughs] But I think, for me, children bring so much joy. I would agree with that. They make my life full of joy. I would agree- And so- With, uh, yeah, I would absolutely agree with that.

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I think that it's kind of interchangeable. Like, I, I agree. So joy is a decision that you decide to make. Yes. Right? I'm going to be joyful. I'm going to find joy- Yeah... in this moment. Happiness, you're right.

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If my house got struck by lightning, I would not be happy. But depending on how I react in that moment, I could either be joyful, or I could be a very unjoyful person to be around. Be like a Scrooge. Which is awful.

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Exactly. Right? But I, I see... And so it's, it's almost, I guess I don't see happiness as, like, permanent because no one's permanently happy. And if you are, let me know what you're doing. Like, please.

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So coming to your point, do children bring happiness? Um, not all the time. Sometimes, for sure. Absolutely.

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Like, there's a lot of times where I'm happy with my kids, but there's a lot more, like, especially in those early days, there's a lot more stress that goes into it.

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And there's a lot more issues, like you're learning a new way to live. You're not just responsible for yourself. I know we've talked about this in a few different episodes. But something that you mentioned, what was it?

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I mean, there was, there was a few things. Like, what was it? Quality of life. Quality of life and marital deprivation. Do they improve the quality? Stuff like that. So much.

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And I think it actually, it actually begs the question beyond just the quality of life from having kids, but, but should, should everyone have kids? No.

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And- That's an, that's an easy answerWell, I think it's an easy answer, but also when you think about the people who... There, there are so many people who want to have kids and can't.

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So you have to be mindful whenever you have a conversation about children, quality of life, wanting to, needing to, not having...

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People out there, you might be listening, you wanna have kids and you haven't been able to, we get that, and that's, you know, there, there's a lot of different situations like that we wanna be mindful of.

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But quality of life, I think just like defining happiness and joy, quality of life has to be defined. What is- Yeah... the characteristic that defines someone's quality of life?

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I would die on the hill that a parent defines what quality looks like undeniably, like, u- unmistakably different than someone who's not a parent. And- Yeah, 100%...

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to, to such an extent that the person who's not a parent cannot even fathom- Fathom. No, they can't... how a parent defines their quality of life. 'Cause when you look at...

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L- I just got back from a family vacation, lasted almost a month. I, without kids, would have spent that whole month doing a thousand different things that with kids I just couldn't do.

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I didn't even let myself- For sure... go there. For sure. It's not like, "Oh, I wish I could do that. If I didn't have kids, I totally would." It's like you don't even...

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Your brain doesn't even operate like that anymore because you know your kids- That you just can't do it... are a limiting factor- Yeah, yeah [laughs]... in the things you do. Yeah.

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But, like, I wasn't there measuring my quality of life and saying, "Oh, geez, like, this vacation would be so nice if I didn't have kids."

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Like, no, the vacation was quality because of my kids, and alongside the, the value of being a parent to me. So I think the measuring stick is not longer or shorter, it's a different stick. Yeah, yeah.

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You measure your quality of life as a parent in different rules than you do when you're not a parent. You do. What... You're, you were gonna say something. I don't even remember.

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Um, do you think that you would've been happier if you did things that you could have done if your kids weren't there? No. No? Um, no. Since becoming a parent almost four years ago,

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over four years ago, uh, you know, my, my wife got pregnant, so I could, you know, could argue that- But you got-... that's when I became a parent. And you were pregnant too. But- Yeah. Yeah, yeah. I was, I was pregnant.

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No. Uh, I, I don't like even not being with my family, as you have as well.

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You know, there's times you travel for work or your, your wife takes the kids on vacation or whatever, goes sees your family while you have to stay home.

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Like, all the random stuff that separate us over the years, I hate those times. Hate it. Some people, uh, you know, some people like that. "Oh, I love... My wife's out of town, I'm a bachelor again, let's live it up."

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Like, I hate it.

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I like maybe a week, or not a week, a day, like a night, um, couple nights maybe, even for a short trip to, like, New York for work or something, where I can, like, focus and get a lot more work done, to be honest. Yeah.

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Yeah, yeah. And frankly, it's just I can have a w- way deeper work sessions when I'm alone in an office or away from home. But I, I miss them right after, right after I leave.

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Ei- either they leave or I leave, depending on the trip. I'm like, no. Like, I, I, I realize I'm actually kind of like a boring person without my family. I, I didn't used to be, but I also didn't used to be a parent.

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Once you become a parent, your life is just different. Yeah. The way- They are... you measure quality- Yeah...

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the things you value, the things you enjoy, the things that bring you happiness, but also the things that you choose to be joyful about and because of, all- Yeah. Dude... immeasurably different once you become a parent.

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So different. The second you have a kid, yeah, the quality of life changes astronomically. And like you said, if you don't have a kid, you, you literally have zero idea. And I remember what I was gonna say now.

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I don't know if I should, but look- Say it... I understand. I, I have people really, really close to me, actually, that just recently found out they may never, ever be able to have another kid. They have one- Mm...

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they wanted three, et cetera. So, like, I know that there are many circumstances in which people are trying or they know that they can't have kids, but they really want a kid. But you asked me should everyone have a kid,

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my immediate answer is no. [laughs] What is your answer? Uh, absolutely not. Okay. [laughs] And I think it's sad. It's sad to me because if you start thinking through the science-backed research about family units

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and the schemas and life traps that are created in children that grow up in families that are broken, we could, we could spend a whole episode talking about this. Divorce is

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ruining children's lives, and I think whether or not you blame the child for the divorce, becoming parents is, I think, a number one factor behind marriages that fail. Yep.

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And it's such a sad dichotomy because I think becoming parents can strengthen marriages and create these values between a, a spouse or a partnership, where there's two committed people becoming parents, man, you guys can, you can be stronger than you ever have.

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But it also breaks up spousal relationships, partnerships, long-term commitments, I think more than anything. And I think sometimes it's because of tragedy.

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So in instances where some, you know, two people can't have kids or they don't align on how many kids, or one does and the other doesn't want, those are, those are reasons why I think people end their relationships.

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Yeah. But if they end their relationships after the child is born [laughs] or the child comes into the family like that...

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I mean, look, a lot of people are not gonna agree with me on this, and a lot of people listening to this may have already gone through a divorce of their own, or maybe they have a long-term partnership that was a breakup and there's children and...

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Look-There's science, I agree with the science. We don't have to agree on this.

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We can agree to disagree, but I think kids' lives are being detrimentally affected by their parents or, you know, their guardians, whatever you wanna call them, not sticking around for the long haul, or even that family unit breaking up in the middle of their very developmental years.

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This is a hill I'll die on, but you don't have to die on it with me. Um- That's, that's a fine hill to die on, but does...

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Are you saying that there should never be a marriage or a relationship broken apart for the kids' sake, even though it's causing detrimental harm to the, you know, father or the mother? I have chosen distinctly to not

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say never in cases that are beyond a general paintbrush. So no, I would not say that. Uh, I would argue that every circumstance is very different.

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You could play the devil's advocate, which in seminary for graduate school that I paid too much to go to, I was trained to write research papers and then argue with my own research papers, and then argue with those arguments.

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That's just how you did it, uh, when you're reading, you know, thousands of pages of theology.

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But if I were to, w- you know, what about the hypothetical when a, a husband's abusing the wife and the wife leaves with the kid, is the kid better off from having an abusive dad not in the picture anymore?

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It's like, well, okay. Like, that is not the commonplace. That is an exception, and that's probably something worth that woman or man getting out of an abusive relationship for.

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So yeah, there's definitely exceptions, but I think in general, a child growing up in a strong family unit, again, backed by- This is-... science and research that I agree with. Yeah. Yeah, I mean, this is true.

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I feel everyone would agree with this. It is true. But not everyone would agree with it. I guarantee there's someone listening to this right now like, "Well, I don't know." Like, okay, okay, there's an exception.

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Well, well- There's an exception to everything...

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well, what you're saying is- I wrote a research paper in college arguing the tautology and functional concept of a squared circle, which is logically and mathematically impossible to conceive of.

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I did it, and I got an A minus. The only reason it was a minus, not a plus, is because it's impossible calculably. [laughs] But I still did it to an A minus. Hey. I'm saying you can argue anything. Yes.

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That was the point of the research paper. You can literally argue anything, and people will, people will. You can. I, I'm just cur- and you're right, everyone finds a reason to argue about something. Um, but I guess

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more so, what I like about you is you're very careful about your blanket statements. [laughs] You always are. Well, I have to be.

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I think I, I think I'm a little more rough around the ed- the edges on that part, but- Oh, trust me, I'm rough around the edges when I know there aren't gonna be thousands of people listening to my words.

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But, uh- Yeah... I, I think... Look, I'm rough around the edges when it's not playing with people's livelihood. Yeah. Yeah. Talk about divorce, marriage, kids. I know.

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That's almost why I was- I know too many exceptions to the rule to play with fire. Yeah, and that's why I thought that you did not meme the astronomer thing, even though, like, 700,000 people did meme it.

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Um, but- Yeah...

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all that to say is, like, the, the blanket argument here that Daniel is making is if you have a strong family connection and strong family ties built on, like, morals and the same beliefs and things like that, it's better for the kid, and I...

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That's, like, the blanket argument, right? The other side is, like, if you don't and you have a broken family, and maybe you divorce or maybe you just are broken in general, it's worse for the kid.

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It's bad for them, and they grow up and they develop higher chances of developing, you know, whatever it might be, stress, anxiety, depression, so on and so forth.

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Um, which if you're arguing that, why are you finding a way to argue that, right? Like, if, if you're... I think that if you're buil- I don't know.

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I mean, there's people that'll say- And a strong family is not a rich family, where, like- Yeah... you just give the kid money for everything and go do everything you want. Like, I'm spoiling you. Yeah.

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That's not a strong family. That's not at all. That's the opposite.

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I just think people, people don't even get married anymore, so, like, in some ways, the argument comes from, well, you're talking about divorce, like, what if we don't get married at all? Like, what if it's- Yeah...

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you know, an adoption Yeah... what if it's, you know, having a child together but you aren't married? It's like there's so many exceptions to the rule that it's like, is it even a rule anymore?

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It's really just a general baseline of where we could start the conversation. But the- Yeah... the question started with a reaction to The Atlantic's post, which is Having Children is Terrible for Quality of Life.

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I would, I would disagree with The Atlantic's headline. That said- I would- Quality of life for the people that aren't parents yet, I think, I think that's where the word terrible starts to get some footing. Yep.

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When people who aren't kids look at what I just have to deal... Or sorry, when people who aren't parents- Non-parents, yeah, yeah... look at what I have to deal with having kids,

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I mean, I'd be tempted even before having kids to look at parents and be like, "Wow, that just sucks." Like, what you deal with- Yeah... day to day- Oh, yeah... sounds horrendous. Yeah.

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I would never do that, but then you become a parent and it just makes sense. Yep. Um, by the way, we don't have to delete this from the recording, but there is a serious storm going on behind me, and I- I heard that...

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may not cut out completely, losing power. Okay. If that happens- Hey, no worries... we'll deal with it in the recording later, but we can leave this in there if it doesn't happen. No.

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So to your point, um, yes, if you do not have kids, I would have a general paintbrush and say, having a kid will ruin your quality of life of not having a kid. Like, that... But it, it changes.

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When you have a kid, like you said, it, it changes. Everything about life changes when you have a kid, and you're right. Would you say... My wife and I talk about this a lot. Would you say that you have just as much...

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Like, would you call it fun? Would you call being a parent at th- at these ages fun?

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Like, are you genuinely having a ton of fun, or do you just know you're building something much greater and much bigger than, quote, "fun"? It's fun and exciting. I think it requires

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s- a selflessness that is very uncomfortable for me.And particularly with how selfish I am. Um, and I'm, I'm just, I think, very aware of how selfish I am, but also just very selfish. Yeah, me too.

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I actually think a lot of people are very selfish, but I just- I think everybody is for the most part... speak for myself. I think I'm just very selfish. Yeah. Being a good parent requires being selfless.

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Uh, you know, if one kid is throwing up on the couch and the other kid is throwing a fit at the same time, I, I have two choices. I could be selfless and deal with this now, and it's an urgent thing.

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It's not like a, "Oh, I'll get to that in a second." It's like, do it now or have billions of excuses for why I can't deal with that right now. Oh, gotta go to the bathroom. The latter is pretty objectively right.

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[laughs] "Oh, I gotta get my miles in today," or like, "Man, I was really hungry. I was about to go make myself a sandwich." Like- Yeah... there's just, you just- No... this is what you have to deal with now, and I think

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that is a, a discomfort that I don't think... Honestly, I don't think anyone's prepared to deal with- Yeah... until they're parents. And I think you learn over time to deal with that.

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I had a conversation before I became a parent, so now four years ago or so, with someone. I, I told them, I'm like, "I don't feel ready to, to talk to kids, to

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teach them how to be whether a boy or girl," at this point I didn't know what they would be, but, like, how to, how to grow up and how to be a functional person.

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And I don't know even how to talk to my wife about being parents. Like, neither of us know, have any experience. And it was interesting what they said.

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They said, "I think it's so valuable to recognize that there are nine months to prepare

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once, give or take, once you figure out you're pregnant and that nine-month incubation period before the baby exists, and then another year and a half to three years even before the kid starts to develop long-term memories, where you can make a million mistakes."

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Now, don't use that to your advantage and just start making all types of mistakes to, like, ruin the kid's life. But you're not going to know what to say. You're not going to know how to react.

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You're not going to know what form of gentle or not parenting you should exhibit when your kid starts to yell at you, which they will. To everyone like, "Oh, my kid won't do that," you're wrong. They will.

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How do you react as a parent? You're gonna make a bunch of mistakes, won't know how to do that. You'll learn from those mistakes. Luckily, the kid probably won't remember those early mistakes.

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So, get those mistakes out, and then learn from them, and then grow, and then learn how to be selfless. But I digress. Yeah. I think... I can't remember what you asked. This is a good episode so far.

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If you're, if you're having fun. I love talking about this because I think, yeah- If parenting's fun. Parenting is fun. It's so hard. It's the hardest thing I've ever done. Yeah. Full stop. Yeah. I,

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I would, I could, I could effectively start and build successfully several businesses at a time before being a perfect father. I, I just...

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Being, being a dad is by far the hardest thing I've ever had to do, both emotionally, uh, physically. I mean, like- Yeah... waking up in the middle of the night forever. Like, I don't know when it's gonna stop.

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It's like, once they both learn how to sleep through the night, watch, there's gonna be a third kid. It's like, well, here we go again. Like, it's just, when does it stop?

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I hear it doesn't really stop, and you just get really good at dealing with it. But it's so fun. Yeah. We had a conversation with Sam Parr however many episodes ago, and he, he said, "I would die for my kids." Yeah.

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Is something he said. And, and I echo that sentiment- Yeah... more than I even really know how to convey in words, without hesitation. This is not hyperbole either. Without hesitation. Gun

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fires, and I have to save my kids and die from that gunshot- Oh, for sure... I'm doing it. No thought. No thought. Yeah. Immediately. Absolutely. Not like, "Oh man, that means I die. Well, what..." No.

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Immediately I would give my life for both of my kids. Yeah. Immediately. No hesitation. That is not an emotion I think I ever felt before being a father.

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I could probably argue that I thought that about my wife, and I do currently about my wife.

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But even, like, both of my wife and I, I, I, I can speak for her, we would immediately without hesitation give our lives for our kids.

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I don't know that you can really feel h- that strongly about something else until you become a parent. I've just... Uh, personally, I never experienced that emotion until becoming a dad. Yeah. No, I agree.

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I agree completely. Uh, my wife and I feel the same. And, uh, my wedding band, the one I work out with just broke. Does that mean that's bad luck? Ooh. Seven years. Don't tell the wife. Um- Oopsies. I don't know.

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Just eat it. Or- You should just eat the wedding band. [laughs] Oh. Be like, "Oh, no." [laughs] What is... What, what's a reason you wouldn't have a kid?

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Or, or what's a reason you would suggest someone to not have a kid?

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If they're picking your brain and they're like, "Yeah, we're thinking about it," what's a, a reason or two that you'd be like, "Hey, just wanna let you know, like, this and this"?

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I think this is where I would probably differ from a lot of people. It's a first world problem to be very picky about if or if not to have kids.

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You look at your typical home in, like, a third world country, um, you know, just name the country, like, uh, Haiti, uh, different countries in Africa- Yeah... places in Asia like India and stuff.

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There's people living in homes with very little infrastructure, and there's maybe five, 10 kids at a time. Uh, and they're not like, "Oh man, like, I need to make more money." It's like, they just deal with it.

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Like- Yeah... it's not about how are we gonna make this work. It's just a, "Well, we have another kid, and it's going to work." [laughs] Yeah. Uh, the end.

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Now, you could argue all the difference, you know, qualities of life and, and stuff with first to third world countries, but I think what we capitalize on too much in America and in first worlds is, like, having all your ducks in a row before you become a parent.To what I said just a moment ago, like, you're never gonna have all your ducks in a row.

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You're gonna make tons of mistakes. You'll, you'll never really know what you're doing.

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You're just gonna learn and realize, "I could probably do that better next time," and then do that better next time, and then do it again and make more mistakes. And when should you not?

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If you are in a just clearly dysfunctional relationship where there's verbal or physical abuse, even if it's like, not like, whoa, you need to get out of this relationship, but like it's like- Yeah...

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passive verbal- Yeah... don't, don't bring a kid into that mess. Like, deal with that. Deal with that first. You don't necessarily have to

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solve it, but like you should be taking act- active advantages or, uh, or, or steps toward, proactive steps towards solving that, maybe seeing a therapist or getting a, a mentor in your lives, as, you know, in your relationship.

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I think there's so many good arguments I've heard of a single parent choosing to have a kid or adopt,

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so I don't necessarily think you need like a, a, a traditional family unit, but like make sure you got your head on straight. Um, I- I'm aware of the arguments against this, but I think that's my opinion.

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I think it's like, don't have a kid if you are, are... if you can name all the different ways you're gonna just completely ruin that kid's life. But like you're gonna ruin the kid's life anyways.

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Like, no one knows what they're doing, so like there's a good argument to just like go after it and just, just give it a go. But I don't know. Yeah. Yeah. I don't know. What do you think?

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I mean, when shouldn't you have kids? I think you have some different opinions on this than I do. No, I, I don't. Um, I, I, I agree with that part where it's like, if you,

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i- if you're in a very dysfunctional relationship and if your immediate thought is, "If we have a kid, it might save us," that's probably not a good reason to have a kid.

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Um, I think a lot of times it's like building a house. How are you gonna build a house and live in it without the foundation? One storm comes by, your house is cooked, right? And so

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I, I think that you need to have a really strong foundation built on a few different... Everybody has different beliefs, different morals, things like that, so like based on, on what you both agree upon.

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But like that's the biggest thing is like, don't bring a- Yeah... kid into the world thinking, one, it'll save your relationship, marriage, whatever that is. Uh- Yes... and two, if like you really...

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I would say if you don't have your stuff figured out in, in regards to like, again, the foundation between the two. But nobody-- I don't have my stuff figured out outside of kids.

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I had no idea what I was doing with life. I was just selling, slinging tech and like that's it. So you don't need to have your ducks in a row, like you said. Um, but yeah, that's like the main thing.

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I was gonna say like a financial burden, but at the end of the day, like I texted this, like my mom, we lived paycheck to paycheck.

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And like you said, people in India are, are, there's people out there living like huts with 10 kids, and they're all, you know, alive. Yeah. And so I, I would even take the financial aspect out of it.

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I think if you have a kid, you will figure out a way. If you are a good parent, you will figure out a way to make it work for your kids, and I hate even saying that. No.

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Like people could argue that and be like, "Troy, I'm a good parent, but I can't figure it out." I'm sure you are. There's an argument against everything. Yeah.

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Like- And I'm sure, like I'm sure there's- Honestly, I, I would love for listeners to tell us their arguments to these. Like, not so that we could argue. I'm not a keyboard warrior. Yeah.

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It, it does expand the conversation to- It does... hear from you about why you agree or disagree. Like, we need that feedback- Yeah... because we're just two guys. We're just two dads in tech.

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I was gonna say- We don't know what we're talking about... everyone remember, we're just two random dudes in tech talking about random stuff. Just literally random unqualified morons- Yeah. [laughs]...

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who both have two kids and like to talk about their families and tech. That's, that's all this is. Yeah. Yeah. Do you think the world's too populated? I don't know. I... Here's, here's my funny response to that.

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I think Thanos was onto something. [laughs] Like, yeah, one way to increase natural resources are to, one, increase the resources, or two,

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greatly reduce those that consume it, and, uh, wiping out half the universe is one way to do that.

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I think, look, all the studies out there that are like, "We're destroying the Earth, it's gonna end," it's like, now that the Earth has warmed this amount, the Earth will melt beyond inhabitation in 2.8 trillion years instead of 2.9 trillion.

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I'm like, do you realize how much time that is and how little literally anyone alive will care? Yeah. Like trillion or billion or even million, I'm like, guys, that's a crazy long time. Yeah. Millions of years.

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Even if you said thousands of years, guys, look- Yeah... I am maybe the, the minority here, but I do not care what's gonna happen to the Earth in tens of thousands of years. Yeah. Yeah. I'm gonna be so gone.

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I just, I just... I'm sorry. Yeah. Don't care. Yeah. Don't care if my can doesn't get recycled. Do you know how many cans that Amazon jacked up during that one tiny little can I could've recycled?

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Guys, like I'm worried about the things that I think are valuable. I just, I just cannot be bothered to care about what's gonna happen to the Earth billions of years from now. Yeah. It just doesn't- Yeah. Same.

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I, I, I've decided and I've, I've put my flag in the sand. I just don't care, and you can argue with me as much as you want, but I'm, I'm... I will die before I care about this issue.

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So he doesn't care about our planet and he doesn't recycle. That's the kind of guy- I recycle. [laughs] I do what, I do what I can, but I know that the companies are gonna destroy the Earth faster than I can fix it.

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I mean, it's just- Yeah. Yeah, yeah... it's basic math. [laughs] It's basic math. Yeah. I agree. I agree with that. Sam Altman will have built a planet by then, and then we'll be good. [laughs] That's what I'm saying.

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Like one ChatGPT-Like function prompt Destroys Earth faster. Yeah. Like that's faster. It destroy... I'm like, it uses more energy than I can possibly- Yeah... say. I'm like, "Guys- Dude... we are- Didn't...

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we are focused on the wrong problems." Didn't he recently come out, not recently, like six months ago, Sam Altman come out with, like how much energy is wasted on people saying please and thank you to ChatGPT? Oh, yeah.

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He did. I don't know if you saw that. He did. It's somewhere out there. I did. I can't remember what it was. Um- It was on X.

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I can't remember what it was, um, but it was just- But a crazy amount of energy is wasted on you saying please and thank you to your bots, and I think that we're all saying that- Yeah...

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because we're scared of what these bots might become someday. [laughs] Like, thank you so much. Yeah. Um, but- No, I mean- Yeah. Who knows... I don't usually say please and thank you anymore. I did early on. Yeah, same.

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Because it, it almost, like came out naturally. But I was like, wait a second, you're a robot and don't matter, but, like maybe they will someday. I don't know. Yeah. Yeah. I don't say it anymore either.

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If they're cleaning my house, I'll probably say please and thank you. That's true. Same. How do you train kids to think entrepreneurially? I can't even say that word. How do you train kids to think like entrepreneurs?

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Or do you? Do they fall into it? Do entrepreneurs just become entrepreneurs, or is there a way to, like build those habits early on so that kids think almost like business owners?

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I think, I think, uh, blanket statement, you are not, you're, I think you are born an entrepreneur or you're not, um, to be honest. Ooh. I think 'cause- That's a hot take. Yeah. Yeah. Tell me more. It might, it might be.

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I think that not everybody needs to build a company. Not everybody has the desire to build a company. Like some person... And you can twist the word entrepreneurial so many different ways.

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Like if I say, maybe some person just wants to play, like the violin for the rest of their life. You can be like, oh, well, they could build a business off that and make money and become an artist.

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That's not what I'm thinking as entrepreneurial. I'm thinking that as more of like an artist. But

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I, I ask any entrepreneur out there, like that's really successful, what do you say this is, can everybody become an entrepreneur? The answer is no, and it's because they're not born to be.

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They're not like trained to be that way. Hmm. Can you learn some of it? Absolutely. You can learn anything in the world that you wanna learn.

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Um, like I don't think most people are born to be sales reps, but you can learn to be a pretty dang good seller if you just like continue to put in the reps and, and all that stuff. But I don't think,

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I think you could train some entrepreneurial skills, but I don't think everyone like can be an entrepreneur. That's, if that makes sense.

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So I- Do you think people who are builders, zero to one people, can learn how to be scalers, one to 10 people, or do you think there are just people who fall online and are really good at building the zero to one and should just keep doing that, and then separately, people who are really good at taking what's built to one and taking that up, you know, 10X?

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I think that, I think the, that the latter is more common to where like builders really can just build to a specific scale, and then after that you kinda hand it off for somebody else to scale.

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Uh, do I think that they can learn it? I think they could. I, I, I really think it's, it's like the 10,000 hours rules. If you do something for 10,000 hours, you'll become a master at it, you'll become an expert at it.

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And so I think that about entrepreneurship in many different ways. I think builders that like the zero to one want to be stuck in that zero to one.

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I don't know if they really have, most of them, I don't really know if they have aspirations to go out there and make it even bigger.

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Like I know a lot of people, the Sendoso founder, like said, "Man, I just wanna keep building." So he recently left, and it takes a lot of... Even Tyler, I'm surprised he's still going.

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So maybe he's one of those scalers, I don't know. But I thought he was a zero to one kinda guy, and maybe people are scaling it for him. [laughs] Who knows? But, um- He's, yeah, he's a little bit of both. I mean, yeah.

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He, he's, he's certainly a, a unique, kind of- Yeah... plays both sides of the coin. But I, I agree. Usually you're one or the other. Think there's very, very few people that can do both.

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Do you think you can train entrepreneurship? I think you can train facets of entrepreneurship, but to your point, like you can teach a crappy salesman how to be good at sales,

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but you can't teach someone who's just a killer how to be a killer. Uh, and I think the same applies to being an entrepreneur. Like, there's people who are just like serial entrepreneurs. Like they can't help themselves.

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They, they build and launch things for fun, and it's what, it's what moves them. It, it's, it's just what they do because they're like, "If I wasn't doing this, I would be bored. I have to build something." There are...

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I mean, even you and I talk to our circles in real life, like I don't know if the same goes for you, but for me, I'm like,

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the stuff you and I talk about and the things I talk about with my online internet crew versus the things I talk about with my in real life crew, like, they're just two different worlds. So different.

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Like me, building and launching and making money online is something most of the world doesn't really get. Yeah. I, I wrote a post about this recently about using AI.

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I think we're in a golden age where you can be a magician

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just by learning how to do basic stuff with AI, and you might feel like you have an imposter syndrome because there's so many people doing even grander things with AI online in your circles, but like 99% of the world has no idea how to do a simple prompt on any, just name any of the tools.

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Like, they just don't. They just don't.

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So there's people going viral building stuff that took five seconds on a Lovable or a VO or a Replit because it, like everyone on Facebook is just like blown away that this is e- even possible, and I think we're just...

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I use Facebook as an example. Yeah, Facebook- Everyone there is 65 plus... just learned about ChatGPT recently. [laughs] I know, right? Like Facebook's like, whoa, you can just...

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Like it's, but, but actually, like there's most, most of the world- Yeah... couldn't, wouldn't even know where to start- Yeah, for sure... to do some of the stuff with AI.

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And so I'm like, there's a golden opportunity to be a sorcerer in your circles and make money either doing that and calling it your own work, or doing that for others and them paying you to call it their own work and, and almost like a ghost writer, but like a ghost prompter.

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Like, just do AI for people that couldn't even possibly learn it if they tried or don't have the time or don't have the desire, don't have the understanding.Anyways, I digress. Yeah. No, no, no. I, I-- Do you think that

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somebody that's never scaled a company to a hundred million but has scaled it to ten million has the skills to scale a company to a hundred million? Definitely. I wonder if we- Definitely.

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I wonder if we think that 'cause we haven't done it.

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And I say that because I've been at a few different companies that have been anywhere from series A to series C, and at that ten million, fifteen million, up to seventeen million dollar mark, like, the person just had to step down and let somebody else take the reins because they were unable to get to the next level.

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And- You're describing Beehive right now. That's, it's- You're describing me. Dude, dude. Was that intentional? No, no, no, but it's every company.

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When I was at Dreamio, when I was at Thousand Eyes, when I was at- It's very common... at Metadata, it's like as soon as you hit, like, that ten, twenty million mark, it's just like somebody...

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Even if, even if that person has made it to fifteen million at three other companies, it's just like- Mm-hmm... there's something there where they can't get past the next little level to scale to a hundred million.

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And they always bring somebody in, VP of sales, CRO, whatever. Like, always. Yep. A- and it always is. I hate using absolutes, but I'm using it in this example to be stupid, but, um, yeah.

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I mean, no, I think you're, you're spot on. I think there's, there's a very specific

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circumstance where people look at, "Well, that guy's done it, and we need to do it, so let's get someone who's done it so that we can do it."

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And it's so much more risky, and there's a lot more fear involved with figuring out how to do it. Why would... A- and the argument is why would we try to figure it out when that guy knows exactly how to do it?

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Like- Yeah. Yeah... they have the playbook. Just let him run it. Yeah. And I, I see the value there. And honestly, more than even I see the value there, I see why investors and, and boards want that.

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They're like- Mm-hmm... just get the person in the seat- Who's done it. Yeah... that knows what to do. Don't waste all this time and all this money and all this growth trying to figure it out.

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We got, we got the playbook right here. So, like, I see that. Um, but, like, what came first, the chicken or the egg?

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Like, at one point in time, the person that had no idea what they were doing figured out how to do it, and they became the guy that knew how to do it for the next person [laughs] because they did it. Yeah, yeah.

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Like, someone did it before having done it- Yeah, yeah. [laughs]... and they have all the time. So I think it's, it's, uh, it's- Yeah... it's of course possible. Yeah. Yeah, it's such a...

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And I think that it's more so, like, directly, what I'm saying is directly geared towards more so, like, the VC landscape.

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I think if you're bootstrapping something, like, you're probably not gonna hire somebody to come scale you from 10 to 100 million. You're probably gonna, like, run lean, stay lean, not worry about growth that fast, um,

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which that's a whole nother conversation, the VC landscape. I, I- I've had, like, a lot of random thoughts in my head, like, do I go get a bridge round or I go try to raise, like, a seed, whatever. But I don't know.

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And it's just- I don't know either... there's more people breathing down my neck, dude, and that's just not what I want. [laughs] Company valuation- No... is, is, is a game that you play.

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And I just saw Noah Kagan tweeted, he's the founder of AppSumo, he tweeted about Lovable. And I don't remember what Lovable's valuation is right now. I think it's, like, 800 million or something crazy. Who knows?

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Yeah, that's not- It's, it's insane. Big. But he's like, he's like, "I don't know a single person that has built something [laughs] on Lovable." I don't know anyone- How are they-... that says they like Lovable...

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none, zero. Everyone I know is, like, Replit, Bolt, But, but, like, Lovable is, like, this- None of them... this golden child. I, I don't know. I just think it's just valuations are just so finicky.

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Like, what do they even mean anymore? Like, what do you mean your company's valued at X? Like, how'd you come to that number? Do you think there's equations going on in the background where it's like...

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And this is a little bit dramatic, but it's like, hey, we just signed up 300 users today. 300 users at $20 a month. Let's multiply that by seven and then multiply that by four. Now, that's our MRR. Okay? Oh, absolutely.

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No, that's a- And, and then- Absolutely... and then multiply that by 12. Full stop. That's our ARR. So, like, these companies that are- Full stop... doing 40 million ARR, you really think it's just like...

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Like, honestly, I think it happened to, uh, RIP, not really RIP, they're still living, but, uh, 11X, is I think that they- Yeah, 11X... they had, like, 90-day pilots. Yep.

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They're counting all that as ARR, and next thing you know, bloop- Yep... in the face. But yeah, that's what I...

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I think all these, like, if you're out there building a company, 'cause it actually, like, kind of depresses me to be honest, like Fixter is one of them. And I'm not saying Fixter is not driving this much in ARR.

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So Fixter, if you're listening to it, I think your name's Archie that's running it. Um, if you're listening to this, it's not against you, but it kind of depresses me and makes me sad because it's...

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He'll, he'll share, like, in a year we went, well, I can't remember the exact timeline, but in a year we went to one do- one million in revenue. Seven months later, we're at 10 million in revenue now.

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We have a team of 10, and I'm like, "Is it 10 million, like, actual revenue or is it, like, MRR that's multiplied by 12, but we don't know the churn yet? Like, what is it?"

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Um, but yeah, I think that's happening everywhere.

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I think the companies that are doing it the right way are segmenting the specific payments that are pilots and services and one-offs and, like, implementations and then the recurring revenue, and they're looking at an average recurrence over, you know, three to six months, and that- that's how they're measuring their MRR and ARR.

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I think, to be honest, I mean, uh, in VC, there's a lot of companies doing, like, a, what exactly you just described. Yeah. Like, all right- Like, the shadiest stuff-... this number... to, to inflate. Yeah.

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[laughs] A- absolutely. It's like, why wouldn't they? If their, if their goal is to make more money- Yeah...

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from VCs, then they have to convince the VCs that they're growing, and to convince V- VCs they're growing is to show them a higher MRR and ARR, and I don't know. It is shady. Uh, Beehive does not do that.

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Beehive has a, a real MRR and ARR value that we report on, and it's, uh, growing, and it's very healthy, and it's exciting. But, uh, I do see different startups, uh, you know, 11... What is it?

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What do you, what is the name of the place called? 11X is one of them. 11X. 11X. Prime example. Um, yeah, I don't know how some of these- Yeah... AI companies...

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I mean, I think I heard My First MillionTalk about this recently, or Sam Parr maybe on Moneywise, one of the two, about how a lot of these AI companies just,

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like, th- there isn't enough money in the market share of how much these valuations are boistering that, like, they can't all last. Yeah. Yeah, yeah. And if they do last, they can't all be valued at this much money.

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I mean, we're talking about basically all of these new, like, metas. Yeah. Like, billions and, and eventually trillions of dollars evaluation just, like, floating around in all these different companies.

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Like, there's not enough economy. Yeah. There's literally not enough money for that to make sense. Yeah. You know? Yeah. Evaluation means that the company should be worth this on a sale. Yeah, yeah.

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You can't have, you can't have a trillion trillion-dollar companies. There's not enough money in the world. That's like why the economy exists.

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It's how you measure economic wealth, and, and GDPs, and all that crazy stuff. It's- Yeah. Anyways. Yeah. That's not my forte. I'm not an economist. Would you ever run a, a VC-backed startup? No.

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Like, would you ever create one and, and raise money? I didn't know where I was gonna ask. Uh, would I run a VC-backed startup? Yeah. Would you, would you create one- I probably-... and go for VC money?

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So not ru- Well, runs- Um, yeah... for sure. Maybe. Okay. Maybe. Interesting. Maybe. It's not off the table. I think I'd rather be an angel investor in other startups- Yeah. We talked about that...

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and with like a, you know, yeah, like some combination of equity and advisor- Yeah... you know, upside. But I don't know. I mean, it's not off the table. I don't... It's not like my dream to go start a startup.

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A- like, i- for me to do that now, like, I'm 32 years old. It's not too old, but, like, that just adds, like, basically five years to my life to go start something like that right now, and that's like 37.

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That's still not old at all. But I don't know. I don't necessarily wanna just go add time to an exit. Yeah. Like- Yeah... it's not off the table. Not off the table. Yeah. Yeah. You'd be good at it. You'd be good at it.

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Uh, you'd be okay at it. You'd probably be a better creator. Have you seen the Hub's Life drama? The Hub's Life? Yeah. Oh, man, if, if you're on TikTok, you know exactly what I'm talking about right now.

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Like, if you're into TikTok- I'm on TikTok. No, no, no, no, no. I have no idea what you're talking about. No, no, no. Not like the semi-boomer TikTok world. I'm talking, like [laughs] young- Sure... young TikTok world.

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No, I'm... Do you know Marcus the, Marcus the Worm? No. [laughs] Exactly. See? There are, there are layers to this bubble. Dude, this is- We're both on TikTok- This is-... and there are layers to this bubble.

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This is the trendy TikTok world. All right. Sure. What are your thoughts here? We're gonna end off on this. Yeah. Hub's Life.

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He got famous for being a content creator because he had a nine-to-five job, and he would create content pretty much saying, like, "Look, life is still good even though you work nine to five.

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Start, g- stop glamorizing, like, all of these people that are driving Lambos in the middle of Miami." So it was like, you know, wake up, work out, make some coffee, get the kids up, like, videos like that.

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Started getting a following, around a million followers. Dipped out of his nine to five, started his own company, now does content creates forever. Like, that's his, that's his full-time thing now.

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But now he's less relatable to the entire audience he built because he does not have a job. So, well, a, a nine-to-five job, I should say. Sure.

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So now there's hundreds if not thousands of videos people are making about him like, "Screw you," like, "I can't believe you did this to your audience," whatever. So my question to you is if you...

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I think it was Spit, and if you are watching this, you probably saw it.

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My question to you is if you created content about, like, just selling a beehive, ended up blowing up, and realized that you can make a decent amount of money being a full-time content creator even though your audience follows you for just selling tech,

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would you take that? Would you make that jump and just go full-time content creation? I don't know. I just saw a TikTok before this episode that was a... It's so funny, the irony.

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It is an up-and-coming influencer that is creating videos about how fake influencers are, and the way he's doing this, at least the video I saw, I have the only one video of this guy, but there's like 300,000 likes.

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So I was like, "Okay, he's probably doing more than one of these."

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But he has this almost third-party vantage point of someone creating a TikTok, and then after the TikTok's over, they're, like, drinking a, a smoothie that's like a food review or something, but their face is, like, disgusted by it.

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[laughs] Yeah. And he's like, "Guys, are we creating a, just a fake meta weird creator utopia where everything is influence economy but none of it's real?" And then he's like, "Is this the world you wanna live in?

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Like, everything is an influence, like, paid partnership. Like, everything?" Yeah. "It's weird. Like, we don't want that. We should, we should get back to, like, real human interaction." So,

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uh, the fact that I just watched that before this, I was like, "Bleh." Like- Yeah...

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I was like, "Let me delete all my social media accounts and, like, stop trying to influence other people," 'cause, like, I, I actually don't like that at all.

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Like, I don't wanna be in a reality that's all just fake and, like, black mirrory and stuff. Yeah. Yeah.

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But I, I think I, I, I could think, I don't have any off the top of my head, but I can think of a lot of examples of people who make it really big in their industry, and they think that audience translates to not that industry, and it just is a failure to launch.

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And, uh, you know, so I don't know. There's a huge risk that comes with that if I were to ever jump off and do something, you know, with my audience- Yeah... for me. And I know that. I know there's a risk there.

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And so, you know, I don't know. I don't know the answer to the question. Yeah.

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I think in a perfect world I'd, I'd would do it, but I think where he lacked is an area in which we talk about a lot, and you talk about even more, is just diversification of where your audience lives and how you reach out to the people that follow you.

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Um, 'cause if he had multiple different channels, YouTube channels, with maybe some little, like, just lifestyle content, stuff like that, like, he would, he'd be all right. But man, he's getting...

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He turned off his comments and everything on his videos. Crazy. Um, awesome. I think I need to do an ad read. [laughs] Which- You do...

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I'm not gonna include it in, like, the episode, so we can conclude, and then I'll record it after. Sure. Sound good? All right. Well, then here. Sounds good. Sounds good. Here, here a tie is off. Twodadsintech.com.

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Twodadsintech.com. Stay tuned for some pretty exciting stuff at twodadsintech.com. Also check out our shop, shop.twodadsintech.com. Get a dad hat, get a mom hat. Uh, also look at our lead magnet on there.

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It's a pretty cool PDF of, like, seven-day challenge to disconnect from technology. We got a lot of cool stuff there. Twodadsintech.com. Yeah.

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Go follow us, subscribe to our YouTube channel, and, uh, we'll see you next week. And we're, we're growing. If you're still listening to this- We are... this means nothing to you.

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We're growing our newsletter count, like, 25 people every single day, which is- Yeah... pretty nuts. We're almost at 1,000 subscribers now. Yeah, yeah. That's absurd. Pretty cool. Anyways. Yeah. Um, sweet. Yeah.

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All right. Twodadsintech.com. Take it easy, everyone. See you next week