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Hey, everyone. Welcome back to another episode of Two Dads in Tech. I'm Troy Munson, and on this episode, Daniel and I talk about the spy that Deel sent to work at Rippling.

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Then we discuss what postpartum depression is like for dads and what we went through.

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Then from there we talk about counseling, marriage, and therapy, and we end off this episode on some pretty fun questions, as well as fun facts that you probably have never heard of. Hope you enjoy this episode.

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Anyways, let's go ahead and get right into it. Troy, what's up, brother? Happy birthday. Daniel, man, how are you? Happy birthday. I'm doing well. I just got my smoothie. It's, uh... Check it out.

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I got a little koozie here. That's so cute. Hashtag squad goals. Not sure where this koozie came from. Aww. But my hands are not cold, they're not wet from the perspiration. Yep. I'm good. I have my smoothie, AG1.

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Shout out AG1.

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But dude, if you don't live under a rock, yesterday, or the day that we're recording this is March 18th, so yesterday March 17th, something went absolutely bonkers viral on the internet between two very much so competing nemesis companies, Deel and Rippling.

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What in the world just happened between Deel and Rippling? Bring me up to speed. Tell me the, the 30-second, on the spot TLDR of what we just witnessed. Yeah, [laughs] dude, this is insane.

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So the TLDR is essentially Deel... So they're both global HR payroll companies, probably the two biggest in the space, maybe if you take out Workday. But Deel supposedly and allegedly

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sent over a spy to work at Rippling, and this guy or girl, I actually don't know who this spy- No, I don't know. Maybe... I think it's a guy because he was hiding in a bathroom, which is- It's a spy, it must be.

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Anyways, yeah, so [laughs] kidding, everybody. Um, so anyways, sent over a spy to work at Rippling, ended up searching up Deel at, what was it?

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Like on average 23 times every single day for the four months that he or she was there, and then ended up getting caught. And the more that you read- Infraing... this lawsuit... Got caught, okay.

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They went and said, "Hey, don't, don't delete things from your phone. Give us your phone."

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He hides in a bathroom, and then he runs away and says, "I'd rather risk it all," or whatever he said and ran away from the workplace. Ridiculous. And that is what happened. They...

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I guess what I did miss is Rippling set up a honeypot, which essentially just means, think of a honeypot, you get stuck in a honeypot. This guy got caught from a trap that was purposefully set up and- Crazy...

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what is going on? What in the world do you think is gonna happen here? Dude, it's insane. So I saw early after this thing became public on X, one of the Rippling employees was like, "We're suing Deel. Here's why."

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And I'm like, "Oh, yo, this is like subpoena affidavit type screenshot." So I'm like, "What's happening?" So I started reading into it. I was like, "This is a big deal."

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So in natural Daniel fashion, I screenshotted it and I posted it on LinkedIn knowing not a single person on LinkedIn knows this is happening yet because they're always behind. Mm-hmm. So I posted on LinkedIn.

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Meanwhile, throughout the day, stuff just kept getting crazier and crazier.

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So the honeypot thing that you're talking about, like the whole security and compliance team set up this honeypot at Rippling to basically like, s- what is it called? Snuff out or, or smoke out- Yeah... the, the,

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what do you call it? The spy. Yeah, they're trying to illuminate... They're, they're c- they're creating a path that essentially alerts them, like, "Hey, this person has clicked this path and has gone on this path."

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Insane. "Go after them." Yeah, yeah. They, they found that person because they sent three letters to three people at Deel at the very highest level.

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Like we're talking like C-suite individuals, three letters, same letter to three people. Not anyone else anywhere else knew this was happening, including in Rippling. It was just a- Mm-hmm. Yep...

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very small few people in Rippling who wrote this letter, sent it to the individuals, and it had something to do with a specific channel in Slack that the Rippling team had created that no one knew existed.

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No one knew it existed, no activity had happened, no messages had ever been sent there.

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But they sent this letter to senior individuals at Deel saying, "Hey, we might have picked up some blah, blah, blah in this Slack channel," this, this one that they, they were basically making it sound like the Slack channel had a bunch of activity to see what would happen if they sent this to senior individuals at Deel.

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So right after that happened, with, one, not enough time for anything to have been communicated broadly, and two, they know that only these three people at Deel received this letter. No one else.

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This, this letter does not exist. There's no paper trail. This, just these three people.

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That channel got pinged by this spy at Rippling internally like dozens of times in a matter of just a few minutes, and so it was a literal smoking gun proof.

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Like, okay, we just told senior individuals at Deel about this secret that no one else in the world knows about, and then this mole that we think is, uh, spying in Rippling activates this, you know...

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Oh, man, it's crazy. I saw a LinkedIn post about this. It was a reaction to like, "Okay, Deel, Rippling, what's happening? Insanity."

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Someone was like, "If this is happening between two companies in front of us, how many companies do you think are infiltrating their competitors via corporate espionage?" So that's my question to you. Yeah. Yeah.

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Is this just the example we all know about now, and is there actually... are there actually tons of examples like this? Yeah. Yeah, that's a great question. And yeah, it's insane.

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To kind of backtrack a little bit, I believe it's like the CEO's father was up to all of this, like he put this entire hit out on Rippling. I-Again, the whole story is insane.

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I think it could be a really funny documentary, but all that to say, I don't know. Like, you want to think that this is really just a very competitive scenario, and it doesn't happen all that often.

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You want to think that, and then you also have to believe that a lot of people wouldn't be up to that.

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Now, I think I've mentioned this in one of the podcasts, that I personally believe everybody has a price for something. You pay me enough money, and I will do X, Y, and Z,

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and so whoever this guy in Ireland is, which have we figured it out? That's what I wanna highlight on this podcast. Who is it? I wanna know who it is. I... Someone definitely knows who it is. Oh, yeah.

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But, like, I don't know who it is, and I don't know that they've publicly... Like, that dude or, or gal, person, it has to be prison time. Like, if this is actually- Yeah...

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going to be, you know, validated in a court of law, I looked it up. Yeah. The consequence for corporate espionage is 15 years in prison and up to $10 million in fines from- Jesus... the company that you infiltrated.

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Insane. $10 million- Unbelievable... is way more than most people could ever pay, and then- Mm-hmm...

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15 years in prison is, like, almost like, well, okay, you can pay it, but, like, I think you also have to go to prison. I don't know. I'm not a lawyer. [laughs] But that's insane. Yeah.

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Yeah, it's insane, but to answer your question, I don't know. Like, [sighs] I, I would- Yeah... really think that the majority of people wouldn't be paid out to do something like this.

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They would just join a competitor, and they'd get paid more, and then they'd kinda just cut ties with their previous company, but who knows? Like, is this... Do you think that this is happening more than we believe?

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Because this is really- I don't know... the first time it's come out. Like, whoa, what's going on? And the story's insane. Like, he's hiding in a bathroom, deleting things off his phone, and then runs away.

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Just i- it's... Oh, my goodness. It's hard to say, and I, I think, you know, it, it... Does everyone have a price? It's, it's interesting 'cause, like,

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I'd like to sit here and, and say ethically, like, I would never do that. That's- Yeah... you're, you're, you're, you're putting yourself in handcuffs. It is a matter of time before you're- Mm-hmm...

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found out, especially with paper trails now. Like, you can't get away with anything. Like, I'm, I'm scared of Slack DMs because I'm like, technically these aren't private. Like, they are.

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It's very, very difficult to get access to a DM in Slack. Even if you go, like, the, the... I don't know.

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I've done a lot of research on this because I set up a Slack org, and you have to actually go to court and have, like, an affidavit. It's just like... It's the same thing as, like, a search and... What's it called?

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A search warrant, like a digital search warrant to access someone else's DM even if you're the workspace owner of a Slack org. So it's like- Really?... but even there I'm like, but someone could do it, you know?

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Like, I- Mm-hmm... I'm not saying anything crazy in Slack, but, like, nothing's really private, and, you know- Yeah...

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people freak out, oh, you know, don't share your, your social and, and be careful, like, where you use your credit card.

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I'm like, look, either one, you're not important enough for that ever to matter, or two, people already have access to this data. There's no way around it. I think we actually did an- Yeah...

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episode on this once with two dads and Zach. Mm-hmm. Like, your, your data has been leaked. Yeah. Oh, yeah. And it is on the black market somewhere. That's just how it is.

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Like, care less because it's, it's, it's exposed. Yeah. Dude, what, what I, what I find almost unbelievable is both of these companies were well on their way to an IPO, and- Mm-hmm...

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whichever company IPO'd would essentially become the de facto of HR tech. It'd be the one that most people go to, and I believe what I read in 2024, like mid-2024, is Deel was prepping for an IPO in 2025.

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So then I read this really educated post of somebody that follows both the Rippling and Deel CEO, like, to the T. Like, he follows their stories, how they are as entrepreneurs, and he thinks that...

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And while there's no way to, like, stop a spy from coming into your org, but he thinks that the timing that, the reason why it was done now and not before or anything like that is to essentially stop an IPO from Deel.

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Because let's say this is true, all of this happens, I can't imagine Deel IPO-ing in the next nine months or whatever we have left of this year. So, uh, I don't know. Are they- I don't know... are they...

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They're not done for as a company. I don't believe that at all. But- No... something's... Someone's gonna get a slap on the wrist and a heavy fine for sure. Someone w- it was a hot take. I'll say really hot take.

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They said this is a marketing stunt by Rippling and Deel as a joint effort to announce an IP- or not an IPO, an acquisition. Rippling acquires Deel. That, one, would be nuts. Two- Wild...

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makes no sense because they're, they're defacing the C-suite [laughs] of Deel. Like, it's a bit... Like, they're ruining, they're ruining their lives forever for this marketing stunt, so I'm like, it doesn't make sense.

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There's too many loopholes in that, but I was like that would be nuts. But also back to the question earlier is everyone has a price. Someone DM'd me. Yeah, I was about to say.

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Are you familiar- What you gonna- Are you familiar with the Binance, like, CEO, like, CZ type of craziness where he, like, went to prison and paid himself out- No... and still has, like, $30 billion?

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Familiar with Binance and stuff. No. Okay. So, like, the TLDR is what I just said. Like, this guy went to prison, and he is no longer in prison, and he still has, has $70 billion.

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S- someone asked me like the, the dumbest question ever, but they're like, "Would you go to prison for four months if someone gave you $70 billion?" I was like, "Actually, yeah." Uh- Yeah... probably. Like- Longer.

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Like, yeah. Like, I would go to prison for 10 years for $70 billion.

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But, like, but I think the question isn't would you, would you experience this consequence, because I think the consequence is like, oh, well, people can white-knuckle through most consequences like that.

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The, the question is, are you willing to ruin your reputation for the rest of your life in exchange for this money? I think that's where- Yeah...

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it gets trickier, and that's where a lot of these, like, more nuanced- Yeah... gray area questions come into play is like-Yeah, I'll be rich, but, like, I'll be... My, my whole face will be ruined.

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Like, I will be completely shamed globally in, in many ways. So I don't know. It's a, a interesting question. Like, do you have a price, though? Like, would you- Yeah...

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what do you think about the $70 billion for, for prison? What is your number? 70 billion, screw my reputation up, dude. [laughs] Make me the worst person in the world. I know. That's insane.

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[laughs] Dude, I would bomb, I would bomb my house while I was inside of it for $70 billion. [laughs] Dude. Like, it's an insane amount of money. Well, what about seven, seven million?

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Would you go to prison for 12 months for $7 million? Ooh, that's a really good question. Seven million, like, look, I understand that is a lot of money. Prison for 12 months, though.

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I mean, there's some things that'll happen. I know. 12 months is not, it's not one night. No, it's not nothing. Um- Nothing. You're gonna have some scars from that. Dude, I can't, I literally can't answer that right now.

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Mental scars, physical scars. [laughs] Yeah, I know. I know. It's, it's hard. A lot of scars. I think- I don't know, like, where's the line? Where's the line? I know.

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I think that, uh, I wouldn't do seven million for 12 months. I don't think I would do that. Give me 20. Maybe give me, give me 20 maybe. No taxes on it. Maybe I'll go spend 12 months behind bars. Who knows? Yeah.

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I don't know, dude. Hey. [laughs] I don't know either. Like, maybe someone's gonna... If, if you have $20 million and you're waiting for me to respond to this question to give it to me,

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I will accept your 20 million in exchange for some prison time. [laughs] We can negotiate the terms. [laughs] Um, but, but all I have to say is you, you're right. Like, you ruin your reputation.

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Now, I think that's a, a crazy conspiracy that you said. Marketing stunt for an acquisition. Mm-hmm. I think it's a crazy acquisition. It was nuts.

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Or a crazy conspiracy, but at the end of the day, like you're saying the CEO would have ruined his reputation globally, honestly, most people outside of B2B SaaS, and even a- I know...

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lot of people in B2B SaaS don't even know these guys. They don't know- I know. I know... the CEO of Deel. Nobody probably knew his name besides Deel and a few others outside of that until yesterday. Crazy, though.

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You know, speaking of that- Yeah... I'll just say this real quick, and then I know you had, you had a question. Who's the founder of Facebook? Founder of Facebook. What's his name? Zuckerberg. Zuckerberg.

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That's, that's what 99.99% of people would say. But actually, Zuckerberg co-founded it with Dustin Moskovitz- Of course, duh... who then went on to co-found Asana.

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Dustin, Dustin j- you know, there's a whole movie made about it. It's like, but, like, to your point, who all knows, like, who's tuned into the Deel-Rippling phenomenon? Yeah.

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Like, less than a fraction of a percent of the world, and, like, I, like, this is maybe embarrassing. I don't even know what the name of the CEO of both companies are right now. I couldn't tell you.

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I could Google it in five seconds and find out, but, like, I won't remember their name, you know? Question for you there, 'cause you mentioned that a Rippling employee shared on Twitter why they're suing Deel.

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Do you remember the Rippling employee's name? I don't, but I can tell you. I looked it up and, and they've actually... There's a whole, there's a whole string of things- Yeah... that have followed.

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Parker Conrad is who it was. Okay. Yep.

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There's, there's an entire, like, there's an entire, like, conspiracy theory [laughs] about the things that followed Parker in life I'm not actually privy to, but, but catch us up to speed. I... Well, I'm going to. Okay.

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So Parker Conrad, there's a reason I'm asking you that, 'cause I knew his name. Yes. Go to Google and type in Rippling CEO.

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[laughs] A lot of people thought it was an employee 'cause he actually does not show himself as a CEO on LinkedIn, anything. He's customer support on LinkedIn. Yeah. Yeah. [laughs] Now it says CEO on Twitter. That's new.

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That is new. Because I, I thought that might be the case 'cause people kept... There's all these tweets and memes right now about Parker and just, like, stink follows ugly.

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Like, it's just, like, apparently his whole career and life is, like, just this type of stuff. Yeah, yeah. Um, I don't know. I don't even have any examples. Dude. That's just the meme right now. But, like, his- Yeah...

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his, his Twitter, I'm looking at it right now, it says, "Rippling Payroll and HRIS admin." Mm-hmm. That's what it said yesterday. Now, at the very end of that one-liner, it says CEO, but it didn't say that yesterday.

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[laughs] So I was like, "Oh, I wonder who this Parker Conrad guy is?" But that shows my own, uh, negligence- Yeah... in doing due diligence there. Well, it's funny you say that 'cause I looked up Parker Conrad.

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I was like, "Who is this random guy at Rippling, like, 'I'm gonna sue this thing'?" And then I looked him up on Google, and it was like, "Oh, he's the CEO." Then I started following some of his tweets.

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Are they still called- Yes... tweets or are they called, like, X's now? What are they called? They're called tweets. They're technically called posts- Okay... but everyone says tweets. Okay, sweet. Yeah.

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So then I read some of his tweets, and he does say some pretty just crazy stuff if you look at it, like...

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And he, and he's consistently posting, but I'm going to do a quick pivot here 'cause I, I could talk about this Rippling/Deel thing the entire time- Sure...

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and we can honestly probably have a really good podcast episode if we did. Mm-hmm.

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Something you and I have texted a lot about back and forth, and something that I've realized and recognized is you don't cuss and you don't swear. Yeah. And I wanna talk about that.

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I know when we spoke about it, you said it's a lot about, like, really just, like, what your kids look up to or, like, what you don't want them to hear and things like that.

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But one, have you ever been a cusser or a swearer? Which I don't know, whatever, tomato, tomato. Have you ever? And then two, is there a reason, like, is there a deeper reason behind it? It's a great question.

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We could spend a whole episode on this as well. Yes, I'm gonna lean spiritual here, and so if all my listeners can bear with me, these are my personal reasons that I'll expound on here.

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But I consider myself a follower of Jesus, so I, I... A lot of people call it Christian, but I think that carries its own connotation nowadays in the United States. So follow Jesus.

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I try my best to read the Bible and act like what I think he was like when he was alive 2,000 plus years ago. I was not always that way.

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I lived, uh, quite a bit of life before I decided to be that way, and I absolutely had the most disastrous vocabulary imaginable. Every sentence I was dropping F-bombs. I was very, like, inappropriate.

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Like, you're like, "Whoa." Yeah. "You shouldn't say that." Like, anyone would've said, like, "Whoa, Daniel, you shouldn't say that."

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And that's just, like, how I talked.Conversations, whether it was funny or serious or anything in between, it's just like I just had a really bad- Mm-hmm... vocabulary and, and, and way I talked. Now,

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part of my worldview and paradigm right now is not using words that we consider swear words, not because... At, at a time in my life, I was like, "Okay, I think people who follow Jesus shouldn't talk this way."

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I would've said that black and white.

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I think it's more nuanced than that, and I'm happy to chat with anyone offline about this if you'd like, but my worldview now is I'm trying to do anything I can to be what I would call set apart, different, because I think in my own

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worldview and paradigm of the way that I want to follow Jesus, he would have me be different.

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So when I look at my lifestyle, when I look at the language I use, when I look at even the ways I want my kids to look up to me, I want them to be like, "Oh, no, Daddy's, Daddy's different. He, he doesn't..."

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Not, not oh, you know, puff your chest out holier than thou, not at all. But nowadays it's a lot harder to be different, and it's a lot easier to blend in.

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And I think that's part of why Christianity gets such a weird reputation is like C- Christians are a dime a dozen is what I would say is kind of going right now. Yeah.

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Well, I don't think true biblical Christianity looks like that. So I don't wanna necessarily derail the Two Dads and Tech podcast by getting into all my personal beliefs, but- Yeah...

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that, in a nutshell, is why I try to stay away from swear words. Got it.

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One thing I think that we should talk about at some point is this, just religion in 2025, and I know that you and I have texted about this, like should we talk about it, should we not?

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Because religion and politics, those are like the two things that you're always taught growing up not to talk about in a professional setting or really like in any setting unless you're a politician or you're in church- Yep...

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or something like that, or you're with the Bible study, all that fun stuff. And so I do think... And I told... I, I think I responded to you, and I was like, "No, let's leave those two alone.

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Let's just not talk about it," 'cause you could really upset 50% of the world based on what you say and how you go about it.

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But I do think that it would be interesting, not this podcast episode, 'cause I haven't prepped enough yet, [laughs] but to talk about maybe like- Yeah...

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what religion looks like in 2025 'cause like you said, it is different almost nowadays, like the, the Christianity beliefs and all this. I mean- Yeah...

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there's a lot of different religions out there as, as well, but I think that we should have a conversation about it at some point- I think so...

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'cause it would be really interesting to see what people say and how they react to something like that.

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And I think there's a way to do this that, look, everything we say in this podcast, every episode, someone's gonna be...

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I- if you polled the entire world, it would offend 20% to 30% of everyone, no matter what comes out of our mouth. "I don't like the way you said that. I don't like the topic. I don't like that you used that."

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Like, you can't please everyone.

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I think part of why you and I started this podcast, and for those listening, if you haven't listened to all the episodes, I recommend going back and listening just, you know, during a workout session or while you're walking your dog.

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Like, we have, you know, almost 20 episodes. We're coming up on 20 in the next few weeks, which is huge. I think less than 1% of podcasts launched make it to 20, so I think we're both very proud of that fact.

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But we've talked a lot about, hey, Two Dads and Tech is going to be very deliberately a podcast where we go there. The subtitle, we talk about things that people think about but don't talk about, and I think

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we, we sort of are broad in our approach in that sense because I think it's necessary to be. Yeah.

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Like, we just reacted in real time to a deal rippling espionage that's like totally random and very much in line with tech and business and finance and some, some of the things that we deal with day to day, and then we pivoted to swearing and religion.

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Yeah. Like, but that's, that's what this podcast is, is whatever Troy and I decide to talk about. And it's not gonna be random enough where like, oh, no one's ever asked this question. It's like, no,

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people have had these conversations- Yeah... at least behind closed doors, and we wanna bring these conversations to you, to the listeners, to the community.

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Yeah, and let's double down and triple down on this belief that we really just talk about the things that people think about, but they don't really talk about or maybe, you know, they're scared to talk about. Yeah.

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One thing that I don't talk about a lot, and I don't even know if I've ever talked about it on LinkedIn at all, and I, I try to keep my personal life outside of LinkedIn. I don't really talk too much about it. Mm-hmm.

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But postpartum depression for dads and what it was like to become a dad and how it made you feel. I don't know how you feel about this at all. We've never talked about this personally, but it hit me rough.

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It hit me really- I know... really hard, and so I wanted to talk about it- Yeah... because I know I'm not the only one out there. But I wanted to hear...

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I don't know if you want me to start with my experience or yours, but I think it's a conversation worth having. I think it is absolutely a conversation worth having. I would love for you to share your experience.

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Before you do, if you're listening and you're a mom or a dad and you've experienced some of this, I know it's not necessarily the most sexy thing to open up about online, but like feel free to drop a comment and just let us know, like I get it.

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You know, you don't have to share your whole experience, although you can. You know, if you're watching on YouTube, like we'd love to hear from you, happy to chat offline.

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But like if, if some of this conversation resonates with you, we'd love to know because I think to Troy's point, especially for the dads, I think there's more of us that have dealt with it than what like the internet and the, and the, and the literature would have you believe.

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But yeah, Troy, what has been your experience with postpartum depression? Yeah, so one thing I don't wanna do is discredit the moms. Y'all go through way more than what the dads have to go through.

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But what I've noticed is I don't know if there's just this persona that dads, or maybe it's just males in general, that, that they try to stay tough and be tough and cage things in and not seem like things get to them, and that's definitely like kinda how I am.

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I, I bottle everything up. I'm like, "Whatever, it's gonna pass. It's temporary. Like, it's fine." And that's how I live my life. Um, at some point I take it's a little too much.

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And so when it came to, so Liam is my first son, um, Harrison's my second. When it came to Liam, I did not know-How hard it was going to be to transition from not being a dad to being a dad.

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And mentally, like, I've gone-- We've talked about it on the podcast.

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I've gone through some crazy stuff in life, crazy deaths that I've experienced, and mentally, it screwed me up more than anything has ever screwed me up in my entire life.

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Like, it, it's almost hard to put into words, but I was extremely unhappy for the first, I'd say, like, the first six weeks. Extremely unhappy. I had no idea what I'd just gotten myself into.

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I was thinking to myself, like, "Is this the biggest regret and the worst decision that I've ever made?" And it's not because he was, like, a bad kid, but it's almost like I lost this sense of identity.

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Like, you almost become a different person the second that you bring your kid home, right? Like, you're no longer Troy that doesn't have a kid. You're now a dad. And I, I don't know what it was.

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Uh, it wasn't really the lack of sleep. The lack of sleep I can deal with.

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I think it was just, like, constantly being responsible for something else, and of course, like, again, the mom carries a lot more than the father typically does in most scenarios.

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But yeah, man, the first six weeks, brutal for me. I, I had never been in a mentally dark space in my life, and I was then. And I don't know what snapped out of it. I don't...

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I think I finally got over it, and I was like, I, I accepted it. And I've al- I love my kid to death. Love him to death. He's amazing. He's so funny.

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But yeah, that transitioning from no dad, from not being a dad to being a dad was the hardest time I've ever had in my life. Now I do everything for him, right?

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Like, hopefully Demo gets acquired, and I can give him the life that he wants to live. Everything goes to the kids.

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Everything I do today, this podcast, the extra side money that we make from it, it's like, great, now what do we wanna go do as a family? So now it's like whatever. And I had Harrison.

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He's, uh, eleven weeks old now, and I don't feel that way at all. Like, I'm like, "Oh, I've been through this before." Again, it's temporary. If he doesn't sleep one night, whatever. But yeah, man, it was tough.

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How was, how was your experience? Yeah. No, I appreciate you sharing that because I think it resonates with a lot of people. I talked about this briefly when we did our episode with Kevin Dorsey, so this was,

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uh, ten episodes ago now. And what you had asked me in that episode is what's, I think, your most distinct memory or your best memory or something like that in your life. And I, I said becoming a dad.

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And I think that moment where you go from not dad to dad is something even in that episode I, I couldn't explain, I still can't explain. It's,

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it's an identity crisis in my opinion of what I would compare it to a midlife crisis, which unrelated, I had one of my own midlife crises about a year ago, uh, where I started running, I lost a lot of weight, I ate he-healthier, like I, I changed a lot about my life because of this midlife crisis.

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I think when you become a dad, you lose yourself in a lot of ways.

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You know, whether you're twenty-five or thirty or forty, like, whenever you, whenever that, that switch flips, whatever you've experienced up to that point is not ever again going to be what your life is like.

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Everything you've come to know and learn and control about your circumstances and your s-surroundings and your relationships and your extracurricular activities, like, you won't be able to do those things in the same way.

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Sure, you're not, like, if you golf, you can still golf sometimes. If you're a runner or, like, into fitness, like, you can still work out. Like, you and your wife can still go on dates.

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Like, there's great things, so, like, becoming a parent doesn't just, like, ruin your life, but it does irreversibly change everything.

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So when I became a dad, that moment I think is the one I'll remember forever, but those first few weeks,

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even probably the first several months, I remember there being times, I don't think I called it postpartum depression at first, but I remember having a conversation with my wife, I can't remember how long into our first son's birth.

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It was months. I was like, "I think I'm kinda depressed, like, about the fact that, like, this is just forever." [laughs] Yeah. Yeah, yeah.

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Uh, obviously kids go through their own seasons and, like, babies aren't babies f-forever, so, like, in many ways, like, you grow and mature as they grow and mature.

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And so, you know, I encourage all the parents out there who, like, are losing their minds, like, hey, your, your kid's not gonna be a baby forever, so, like, you can do it. But

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that postpartum depression, I think it, it's, it has to do with, uh, just giving up everything i-in many ways. Yeah. Like, hey, you're a dad now.

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Now, I actually think if you wanna get into the statistics of, like, parents and, and families that the units that actually, like, break, it's because sometimes the dad, sometimes the mom, although statistically I think it has, is more the dad in, in, like, just the stats, they leave, and it's because I think the inability to accept your new reality as dad- Yeah...

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I think it... there's, there's people who just couldn't do it. I'm not justifying those people. If you're a dad, figure it out. Like, I, I'll, I'll die on that hill. [laughs] Uh- Yeah. Yeah, yeah... you're a dad now.

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Like, you gotta figure this out. But, like, that identity crisis I think is very normal, and I think there's tools and resources to help you get through that. But yeah, man, holy cow. Yeah. Dude.

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Becoming a dad is insane. I mean, y-you're just... Y-yes. Yeah.

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It is insane, and you said that they won't be a baby forever, and there's still times where you look at him like, "Dang, I wish I could go on that trip with my wife," right?

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Like, I wish her and I could just go to Mexico and go to the beach and enjoy drinks and- Yep...

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while they're, they might not be a baby forever, there's also times where you just can't do the things that you want to do simply because you're- Yes... responsible for a child. So- Oh, absolutely.

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My wife and I, we have our seventh anniversary coming up, which is awesome. Super excited.

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We still don't know what we're gonna do because our youngest cannot be alone even one night, so, like, the maximum amount of time that we can go be alone is, like, five or six hours if we time it perfectlyJust how it is.

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Yeah.

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And he's eating some solid food, so like we could probably do like early morning till late night, but like he's gonna be super upset at some point during the day without being able to be soothed, and that's just something that...

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So like overnight, not an option. So like- Yeah... if that were the case, we would drop our oldest off with his grandparents or with a friend, and we would go at least one night, if not two, somewhere. You know? Yeah.

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Hop on a short flight. Like last year, uh, or maybe two years ago now, we went to Miami for like a weekend, and our oldest with, with his grandparent. Like, that was amazing.

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Yeah, you just c- sometimes you just can't do that. But again, it's a season.

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Next year, unless we have another kid, which is not currently on the plans, like this youngest kid will be old enough to be away [laughs] for a, a weekend, and we'll be able to do something. So- Yeah...

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there's some sacrifice, but eh. Yeah. There is. There is. A- and it's amazing, though. At the same time, it's amazing- Yeah... so I don't wanna discredit that either.

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But sticking close to this conversation around just like, I wouldn't necessarily say mental health and having a kid, but more so within the relationship itself, what are your thoughts on therapy? Have y'all done therapy?

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And I don't think that... Let me pause here and say, I think that a lot of people see therapy as in, "We have a horrible marriage and we need to fix it." Mm-hmm.

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Versus, "How can I make my marriage better, and how can we always just like continuously work on ourselves?" So I wanted to get your thoughts on therapy, 'cause I've always been against it until recently. I love it.

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So I'd love to- Okay... hear your thoughts on it, a- if you've ever been or like what you think about it, what you think the- Yeah... stigma is. There is absolutely a stigma.

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I'll speak from my personal experience, and then I'll speak from what we're doing as a couple right now, my wife and I. I've seen therapists my entire life.

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I was a really, really troubled child growing up in ways that we should probably expound on in one of these episodes, although it'd take too long to do at this moment. But I mean, I didn't graduate high school.

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I dropped out. I got a GED. I went back to college with some credits I had gotten during high school.

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I was like in and out of trouble, like, like bad, severe trouble, maybe even not even like internet-worthy trouble type of stuff- [laughs]... as a kid. Uh, I know. It's like, uh, talking- Wow...

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about things you don't talk about, but people think, they're like, "Oh, I could, I could go there." But I was seeing therapists because I'm like, I was just a psycho. I was a psycho. Screw was loose.

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Like here we are, screw's still loose, but I'm like a highly functioning adult, so that's great. [laughs] But- [laughs]... um, so I've, I've actually never thought, "Oh, you shouldn't see a therapist.

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That's, that's just for, you know, the broken people," whatever you wanna fill in the blank. Like there's been a stigma until recently, but personally in my own life, I've always tried to destigmatize that.

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Now, a- when it comes to marriages, we haven't, we haven't seen, quote, marriage therapists, but what we've done since before we were married, my wife and I firmly believe that it takes a village, not just to raise a kid, but for a healthy marriage.

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Yeah. And we've, we have literally preached about this at churches. We have convinced friends of ours, like you, you cannot, this, your marriage will not survive if you try to do this on your own.

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This is like, we're a broken record. In our, in our friend circle group i- in real life, like for the last 10 years, we are a broken record about this. And here's my belief.

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If you are a married person, you should be meeting with someone else who is married, ideally, although not necessary, ideally further along in their life. So I'm 31, my wife is 31.

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The people we meet with every other week now three and a half years, because that's how long we've lived in Charleston. In Chicago, it was a different couple, five years- Hmm... that we were there.

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Before that it was Madrid, different couple, for a whole year. Before that it was college. Everywhere we've lived, every stage of our marriage, we have met with someone. They are in their 60s.

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They have children who are our age. They have been through way more life than we have. They've raised kids in a super respectable way. The way they conduct their lives, he, he owns a business. They're really well off.

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Like it's, like we're like, "Okay, we wanna imitate you, and you've done it. You've figured it out. Like you've gotten past a lot of those trials that come with, you know, every marriage imaginable.

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Teach us how to do it. How do we parent? You know, what should we do when our kid starts throwing fits and talking back? How do we- Yeah... you know,

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separate the idea of, you know, taking him to school knowing people are gonna bully him or he's gonna bully them?" Like I, I don't know yet. He's not old enough for me to even know [laughs] which side is gonna happen.

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If he's the bully or not. [laughs] Yeah. Ideally he's not the bully. Like that would, that would, that would be rough. But like that's gonna happen, and I wanna be prepared to be the best dad possible. When- Yeah...

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Courtney and I have arguments, I wanna be prepared to be the best husband possible, not to just everyone goes to bed upset and angry and like, "Ideally, this'll work itself out."

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Like no, that's what leads to broken marriages. Like no, we wanna, like we're resolving this junk right now. Like let's not go to bed while we're still very upset. Like no one's sleeping on the couch.

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Like that's, we're not doing that. Like we're- Yeah... we're committed to each other, and so let's figure this out. And sometimes we get stuck.

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Having someone you meet with consistently who knows you in and out, good and bad, those types of people are so monumentally helpful when you get stuck.

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So call it marriage therapist, whether they're literal therapists or not, we, we call these people just mentors of ours. But, uh, coincidentally, one of them actually is like a counselor.

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But like, you know, i- it's not, we're not like paying them to be therapists, although I think the same principles apply. You- Yeah... you cannot do it on your own. That is my belief.

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A lot of people try to do it on their own, and I believe that is why over 50% of people end their marriages, because they're- Yeah... trying too hard on their own instead of the right way with a village. What's- Yeah...

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your opinion on, on marriage and, and therapy and, and counseling? Yeah. So I, I love that.

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I've actually never gone the route in which you meet up with a couple that has been there and done that, which I think is an amazing idea, by the way. Uh, but I, I agree. I think that, yeah, there's a stigma.

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"Oh, y'all are breaking. You're falling apart. Go see somebody. Hopefully they can fix it, put a Band-Aid over it, and then it'll be a big issue down the road." Yeah.

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I, growing up, I've been, I was also a, a pretty bad kid. Uh, luckily, I think we've talked about this a little bit, luckily I've never gotten into- Yeah...

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drugs or anything, but man, I just didn't give, I didn't give a crap about-Anybody, man. J- anybody but myself. Like, let me just make Troy happy. Yeah, yeah. And so I've kind of carried this whole...

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I, I wouldn't say I'm selfish at all. Like, my, I, I, I'm probably more helpful than selfish today, but I would say, like, I, I'm stubborn.

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So, like, for example, when I lost my friend, my mom was like, "You should just see therapy," like, "You just went through something that m- most people don't go through, and they don't witness."

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I'm like, "No, I'll be all right. I'm gonna figure it out." So, like, that's a really good example. And- So it's kind of like the same way with, with my wife. Like, she's incredible. She does so much for this house.

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Like, she's literally... We're moving on Friday. So everybody, I'm recording this on a Tuesday. Our movers come Friday. She's packed up- There you go... this entire house. I haven't touched anything.

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I do ask if I can help. I don't think I pack in an organized way in which she would love. [laughs] Um, so I think she would rather just do it herself.

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But all that to the, to say, like, she does so much for the family and stuff. But I've always been like, "No, I don't need therapy." Like, why would we need to talk to people? Like, if it's gonna work, it's gonna work.

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If it's not, it's not. And I've finally, like, slapped that out of my mind because I think a lot of- Mm-hmm... people think that way, and especially- Yep... again, I think it's a male thing.

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I think a lot of males think this way- Mm-hmm... where they're too good for therapy.

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But there's so much that you learn about simple communication, whether it comes, you know, with communicating with your partner, or friends, or your parents, or even in business. Like, there's so many...

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I know Josh Braun, a lot of stuff that, uh, this big LinkedIn sales influencer, if you're unaware.

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He preaches a lot of sales tactics, and I've noticed that there's a, a famous therapist, something Gottman, I can't remember their name, but a lot of stuff that he preaches is exactly what she preaches for couples.

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And it's just- Hm... it's just communicating. It's just how you communicate with people and how you should talk to people versus how you think you should talk to people.

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I think it's an extremely important, like you said, if it's not a specific therapist, but it's just somebody that you talk to- Mm-hmm... like, make sure that...

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Like you said, people doesn't know your life and know what's going on because it's just really good to have a third party that's unbiased and walking you through some... Like, for me, getting used to parenting.

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Like, I needed help with that. Yep. Again, I was lost. It was crazy. So yeah. I think it's extremely important, and I think that a lot of males think they're way too good to go to therapy or talk to a therapist.

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I think you're right. I think there's... I have an opinion that every adult should see a therapist at some point. Married, single, parent, not, whatever. And my opinion is that because I think every single child has,

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call them schemas, life traps, all the psychological words and, you know, verbiage that you could throw in there. Mm-hmm. Issues from their childhood. Yeah. Oh, yeah. And I think, I think so,

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I think so much that is the case that even if you were a perfect parent, your kids are gonna have issues as an adult because you were so good, and that's not even a joke. It's like there's no way out of this.

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Your kids are going to have issues from their childhood- Yeah... no matter what. And so as an adult, same rule applies.

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I don't care how good and perfect your childhood was, like, you probably are the way you are, for good or worse, better or worse, like, because of the ways that you were parented, or your parents may have been absent, out of the picture, your aunt or uncle or grandparents were your primary guardians, or you were out of the house as a kid, and you...

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Uh, there's, like, so many different possibilities here of what could have hap- But, like, using a therapist, whoever is listening to this, it's important. And there's things- Yeah...

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that you'll discover about yourself that just, I think, objectively are gonna make you a better person, better father, better husband, better wife, better career worker, better business owner, like, more successful.

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I think there's just stuff that you should uncover about yourself, the way you think and your worldview, that I think therapy's gonna help with. Yeah, I agree.

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And I do think, 'cause, like, any time you talk to a therapist, it always comes down to, like, how you were brought up and how you were raised and the things your family has gone through- Yep...

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what kind of friends you had, how your siblings were to you. Like, there's so much psychological stuff that happens to you from when you're born to now, to present- It is... that you never think about.

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And there's a lot of things that I'm like, "Oh, my gosh," like, "That's why I'm that way, really?" Like, ugh. Yep. Can't believe that. Like, I grew up with stepdads that were just awful. So, um- Yeah... yeah, man.

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It is crazy. It's crazy. No, I, I think everyone has their own story, and a lot of people don't even know their story. Yeah. So I think, you know, the, what is it?

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Like, a stereotype is like, "What's, uh, tell me about your father." Like, "Tell me about your relationship with your mom." Like, that- Yep... it's a stereotype, but, like, actually, that's where it starts.

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[laughs] Because- Yeah... that's where it starts. If you think back to where you started becoming who you are, it was when you were two or three years old. Sometimes in, in, like, before memories even started to form.

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Like, you started developing behaviors and habits because of the environment you were in. I'm gonna do a big, hard pivot, and I'm gonna ask you a couple questions here. Is that all right? Please do. I love these pivots.

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I know. The pivots are why, it's why we're here. Are bananas berries or vegetables? I wouldn't consider it a berry. So I think I'd consider it a fruit. But I wouldn't consider it a berry. Bananas are berries.

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[laughs] Bananas are berries. It's insane. Botanically speaking, a berry must have seeds and pulp that develop from a single ovary of a flower, which bananas do. Okay.

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But, like, if you said fruit or vegetable, I'm going fruit all day long. Oh, no. I tried to throw you off there. I tried to throw you off there. I said berries are vegetables. Yeah, that's weird. It is a berry.

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That's a, that's tricky. I tried to give you a way out. I know you did. I tried to give you a way out. You did. Ugh, whatever. Whatever. All right. I want you to tell me how many hearts an octopus has.

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Ooh, I just heard this. Oh, I forgot what the answer was too. Four? Three. Ah, dang it. So there's two that pump blood to the gills, while the third pumps it to the rest of the body.

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So when they swim, the heart that pumps to the body actually stops beating. Mm. So they have, like, a, a, I don't know. Someone just, like, dissected- [laughs]...

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an octopus one day and just discovered this, but that's insane. Dude, that's awesome. Which- I know...

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speaking, speaking of dissecting an octopus, it has nothing to do with that, but could you imagine being the first person to ever realize that a cow has milk? [laughs] Dude, I've thought about that about so many things.

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Like-Like, who's the first person to see this crab, like, spidering across the ocean and be like, "I'm gonna rip the, the legs off of this thing and just eat it." Yeah. Like, ugh. Yeah. Like, gross.

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[laughs] There's so many situations like this. I saw a TikTok today, I hope you're watching this YouTube. If not, maybe I'll clip this and throw it on LinkedIn.

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But I saw this TikTok today, and it was like, imagine being the first guy who wanted to invent a camera and he's like, "Gosh, I swear, like, if I just wanted to just get this, this picture right there.

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Like, I just, I just wanna remember this specific moment." And he's, like, trying to, like, figure it out. He's like, "I swear I'm onto something." Like, ah, dude, like- [laughs]... whoever that was, I was like- Like-...

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we need to remember this... have you ever... This is, like, this is wild. Like, what in the world is a mirror? Explain it- Dude... to me right now. I just say it's glass that you can see yourself in.

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[laughs] That's like, right? I'm like, why can't I see myself in all of the glass? Why is it specifically mirror? And like, who decided, "Hey, this is how I'm gonna make this perfect, exact reflection of stuff"? Yeah.

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And then you see those videos of people, like, putting towels against it, and then you... from an angle, they can, like- Oh, that-... see through the towel... that is idiotic, dude... or whatever. I know.

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I'm like, it's just an angle, you idiot. [laughs] Oh. All right. Yeah. Yeah, go ahead. So I have some more fun facts. Did you know that the Eiffel Tower technically grows in the summer? Why is that?

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Like, something it's made out of expands? Yeah. So due to the expansion of iron in heat- Mm... it can grow up to six inches taller during the summer. Dang. I mean, that's, like, pretty substantial. Six inches. Yeah.

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That's like- Substantial. Substantial. That is substantial. That's like me probably going from 5'11" and a half to six foot, which would be kind of cool. Technically, that would be half an inch. Well, yeah, but I...

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but it's- I know... it's, you know, in relation to how tall the Eiffel Tower already is. Chris Hamble's height. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, I know, I know, I know. You're like, "Bro, that's not six inches."

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[laughs] Uh, what else? Did you know there's a basketball court inside the US Supreme Court? I didn't, but that's kind of sick. So they hoop. You know they have J's on. Located right above the main courtroom.

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[laughs] I know, I know. They're, they're, they're ready. They... Right after the broadcast, they're ballin'. Like, can you imagine- Dude... just, like, the US Supreme Court, just, like, five on five?

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Like, three on the bench- Yo, they-... they're just, like, going after it... right, they... A huge speech and they're, "All right. Yo, let's go change." [laughs] A year later- Or they just, like, rip off their-...

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it's up... their suit. [laughs] It'd be sick. All right. I got, I got a last one, and we'll wrap it up here. A day on Venus is longer than a year on Venus. Let me explain.

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Venus takes about 243 Earth days to rotate once on its axis, but only 225 Earth days to orbit the sun. Mm, that's where you got me. I know. That's where you got me. That's where I got you. That's pretty crazy.

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That's where I got you. I gotta- That's crazy... I, I still don't even know what I just said. I'll have to listen to it later. [laughs] 'Cause what? [laughs] All right, uh, we're up on time. I know you got a hard stop.

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I'm gonna ask you one question, and then you gotta tell us where- Yeah... people can find us. What company do you think will go under in the next five years? Large SAS company.

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I just had a conversation about this yesterday. I think literally pick one that is going bonkers viral right now for AI. There is no way in the world- Mm... that they all survive, in my opinion. So which one?

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If I had to, if I had to synthesize this, I'm not gonna throw any of those under the bus. Yeah. I'm gonna actually- Yeah, don't do that... dodge all of it.

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Like, 'cause literally, like, not all of these AI tools are gonna survive. I, I think a lot- No. Oh, no... of them will, but not all of them will.

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If I had to say one specific company that'll go under in the next five years... You're gonna say Salesforce. I... [laughs] Dang it. That was the one was on my mind, but that's hard.

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Dude, Salesforce is so big, there's no way. Five years- I know... absolutely doesn't make another 20 years. No. Five years- Uh... I think they'll still be screaming and kicking. Yeah.

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But, like, that is exactly what was on my mind. I hate that you knew that. And so Daniel, where can they find us? 2dadsintech.com. At handle, 2dadsintech, Instagram, TikTok.

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We have a 2DadsInTech LinkedIn page now, which is funny. Please go follow us. Hysterical. 2dadsintech.com has all the information you need to listen to us on Apple, on Spotify, on YouTube.

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They have all the forms you can fill out if you wanna sponsor us. And then lastly, if you do wanna just reach out to me directly, daniel@2dadsintech.com.

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We are booking out all the way until the second half of the year right now, so hit us up if you are wanting to sponsor 2 Dads in Tech. It's a great opportunity. Uh, we love our sponsors. Thank you to our sponsors.

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Absolutely. We'll see you all next time. See you all next time.