[upbeat music] Welcome back to Tasteland. I am your co-host, Francis Zehrer. And I'm Daisy Alioto. And today we're talking with Ariel Rubin, who is the head of content at Air.
Full disclosure, my former employer, my former boss. [laughs] Uh, one of the most fun people to work with I've ever worked with.
He's kind of an insanely creative, risk-taking type of marketer, uh, in a, in a, in, in a world of software where so much is really boring. Um, I learned a lot from him, working with him.
So one of my greatest enemies, uh, and mentors. [laughs] Facts. Um- Facts... and I met... Well, I know him as Ari.
Um, we are working together on a new Instagram native magazine for creative complaining through Dart, edited by Danny Loftus, who we'll definitely have on the podcast at some point. And it's called Ick, ick.fyi.
You should definitely be following it. We're asking- Mm... cool people what they hate. Hm. Sort of the inverse Perfectly Imperfect. [laughs] The inverse Perfectly Imperfect.
You know, they need a, they need [laughs] they need a Wario, I think- To-... so he could burst the, the industrial complex. And let me tell you, I have so many icks, but most of them- Okay, give me-...
are moral in nature. And we did get into that... Moral. You're a moral person. You're- This episode is a little bit political, trigger warning, so if it's- Mm-hmm...
not the vibe for you right now, if you don't wanna think about- [laughs]... the future of America, maybe- There's vibes good and bad... or Canada- Good and bad... Ari- Or Canada... Ari is in Toronto. Um- Mm.
Yeah, I think- Yeah, we got a report from the north. [laughs] From the six. I'm trying to think of an, a recent ick that I've only arrived at this week.
Well, this morning, Natasha Hoskins, former Boys Club guest, texted me- Hm... that she gets the ick when men do the phone eats first. Like, they take a photo- Fuck, I've done that... of their food before they...
Well- Yeah... so you- you're not for her, but that's okay. Yeah, that's okay. Um, there's somebody for everyone. [laughs] My icks, you know, it's funny when people talk about icks in a romantic context. I saw that, um,
Magdalene Taylor, who we should totally have on some point. Hm. Um, she has a great Substack. I, I had- Yeah... to look up what it's called. Follow her on Twitter. Easy to find. Mm-hmm.
Um, she went through a few different trends in dating right now. She talked about the materialists and what's going on at Bumble, which just had a ton of layoffs.
Uh, there's something about the matchmaking service and the materialists that's very mathematical, and so she's basically talking about how dating isn't mathematical.
And to that point, I think when you like somebody, you don't get the ick, even things that would really [laughs] give you the ick. And I can tell you, um, the, the amount of ick latitude Ben has in our marriage- Hm...
uh, and as well, and me as well is, like, truly astronomical. He and I, um... So he's, like, he's, like, pretty sensitive to heat, and so I usually drive him- Hm... to the station in the morning.
It's like a 10-minute walk, but I'm like- You don't want him to overheat- And he has to-... it's sweaty... overheat before he even starts his commute. Like, that sucks. So I drive him to the station.
He's gonna muss his tie. I... Well, he doesn't wear a tie, [laughs] let me tell you. But, uh, we usually get coffee together at the station, and then, um, you know, say goodbye for the day.
We're standing about to order our coffee, and I was like, "Something looks off with his shirt," and I realize it's inside out. Hm. So I'm like, "Baby, [laughs] your, your shirt's inside out.
You gotta go to the bathroom and fix it." And he comes back- He said, "No." No, he fixes it, and he's like, "I also forgot my belt." And I'm like, "Well, who cares about the belt?"
And he was like- If he was wearing a tie, he could've used it as a belt... it's, he's like, "It's gonna be really annoying." [laughs] And I was like, "I got nothing for you." Like, I don't...
Not enough time to go home and get the belt, even if I had wanted to, and nothing on my person that could function as a belt. So I mean, whatever. That's, that's not, that wasn't the biggest problem. What's the ick?
Where's the ick here? Well, if you went to a first date with a guy and his shirt was inside out, how would you fucking feel? Well, it's, it's not a first date. [laughs] That's what I'm saying, though.
It's like you're- That's what I'm saying. [laughs] Icks really only matter when you're getting to know somebody. Yeah. Uh-huh.
Once you establish a baseline level of intimacy, short of the revelation that somebody's, like, a horrible person, and let me tell you, it's happened to me, [laughs] nothing is gonna, like, ick you out. Yeah.
So I think, like, this conversation around icks, especially in dating, which I think really comes to mind when people hear the word ick, even though we're more interested in, like, creative and workplace icks- Hm...
it's really only relevant for people that are, like, just getting to know each other. Yeah. 23-year-olds. [laughs] 23-year-olds. Yeah, sure. [laughs] Wow. Um, this, this- What did 23-year-olds do to you, Francis?
Now you gotta tell me- Well, one time I-... some of your icks. I'm, I'm... Well, this whole time I- You're German, so I know you have a lot. [laughs] I've been so... I've i- ick been unbent [laughs] Oh, good one.
Okay, no. [laughs] I'm... This whole time I've been stalling 'cause I've been trying to think of some, but I think... I'm a really, I'm a really tolerant person. Um, I don't know. You are very tolerant. Yeah.
Much to, to, to, to my chagrin. To my fiance's chagrin. You and I both don't like time wasters, though. Yeah. Well- I think when you and I have both gotten- But I put up with them. Oh, yeah. I have...
See, I, I, this is actually, this is, this is a problem. Mm-hmm. A personal problem of mine i- like, I'm really bad at leaving conversations, say, at a party. Mm. Um, an ick maybe...
One thing, one thing that, one thing that really disgusts me, um, as this has kinda been a theme over the, [laughs] over the year we've been recording this podcast, I feel like I've been souring on restaurant culture.
Oh, yeah. And so I saw... My friend sent me, like, an Instagram reel the other day of the line outside Golden Diner. No. And it was at least 100 people in there. No. I like that restaurant a lot.
I used to go there a lot before it blew up on TikTok, and I will never go there again, right? So I think- You know waiting in line gives me the ick. [laughs] Yeah, exactly.
So I think, I, I think I used to be more tolerant on waiting in line for stuff, and now it's like, if it's, like, gonna be more than a 15-minute wait, like, you know, s- say it's, like, the morning. I'm...
Like Radio Bakery or something. Um, I know that line's gonna move 15 minutes and so... But if it's like, uh, 200 people, um, I just think you should be ashamed of yourself. Here's an ick: having no shame.Oh, 100%. Yeah.
No shame I would wait, I would wait in line for an author to sign my book in that way. Oh, I don't do that.
Every time I've- [laughs] This, th- in the past year I've gone, like three or four times I've gone to McNally Jackson for readings. Every time I, I dip as soon as it's time. I don't need that.
I would wait in line for an author to sign my book if I really cared about them. Mm-hmm. I should revise. Um- This, well, this reminds me.
On my favorite podcast recently, Fashion Neurosis by Bella Freud, she al- she has, she always asks people the same questions, but one of them is, uh, um... She has a great voice. I'm not gonna judge it.
When are we having old Bella on the pod? Oh, I mean, I, I would love to. Old Bella. Old is a sign of respect in my world. It is. No, that's... You are assuming something about my tone of voice that, that was not in it.
Uh, but- Rick... she always asks people, um, "If you're attracted to somebody, um, but you dislike the, something they're wearing- Mm-hmm... does that kill your attraction?" And it's always really interesting.
The, it's not... The answers are kind of pretty evenly split. But- They're lying... it's a good specific if They're lying. If you're attracted to somebody, I don't think it matters what they're wearing. Mm-hmm.
You know what does matter? How they smell. How they smell. And I don't mean the good or bad binary. I mean, like- Like aura... that's the... Attraction is chemical. It is. If the chemistry is there- Mm...
it's, it doesn't matter. [upbeat music] You did a campaign with Bonnie Blue three months ago. Oh. How was that? Is that where we're starting? That's w- we're starting, that's where we're starting.
Uh, I thought this was, I thought this was hilarious. I saw it, um, on LinkedIn probably- Yeah... or you texted it to me or something. Yeah. Uh, and I mean, the, my favorite part of this was how many people hated it.
Yeah. I mean, you know, sometimes you gotta, you gotta... You know, when you're trying to touch the white hot core of culture, you know, the burning- Mm. Blue heat... molten- Mm... blue heat, magma. Bonnie Blue heat.
Mm-hmm. So the Bonnie Blue heat- [laughs] Uh, you know, you're gonna, you're gonna alienate some people, I think. Mm-hmm. But that's okay. We like that. I, I like that. I think that's good. I think it's fun. I...
You know, I was on, I was on [laughs] LinkedIn today, and I was reading this woman, um, who's, who's, who posted about this, like, tea kettle she likes, this pink tea kettle. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. It's called a Smeg.
I think that's how you pronounce it. A Smeg, yeah. Classic. And it was... I'm gonna send this to you both after.
I don't know if this is good for the pod, but I was just reading, and it was some of the worst shit I'd ever read. It was so embarrassing.
And I understand we're all, like, living in it, and I'm not, like, a purist, and I do it every day, but it was like this millen- She was, like, talking about that.
She's like, she's like, she is, she is el- She kept calling the Meg, the Smeg a she. The Smeg. Yeah.
And, uh, it was just like, it was, it made me so uncomfortable and sad and feel hollowed out, and like, everything is so bad o- I think on LinkedIn.
And, um, I think it's fun to, to do stuff that gets people, uh, all up in a tizzy, and, uh, it was really, it was a, it was a fun ca- I mean, like, look, what are you gonna...
You know, Francis, you know how it is working in the old SAS game. You gotta stand out, you gotta try to, you know, try to take a few swings and, um- Mm-hmm... yeah. It was g- it was, I, you know, I, I'm proud of it.
My mom really liked it, and she doesn't like anything I do, so. Yeah. Well, she did, she, why did she s- s- She was like- SpeciallY like the campaign?... "Oh, that's a good, that's a good one. That's funny.
That makes, I like that." [laughs] She's like, "Oh, that's fun." I mean, listen, it's funny. It's a funny idea. Also, it's, like, not even the original.
My mom liked it when I was in Playboy, 'cause she was- You were in Playboy?... one of those people. My daughter was in Playboy. Yeah, as a writer. Oh, I only- But-... I only read it for the articles.
[laughs] Yeah, exactly. It's a g- She thought it was very funny to be able to make that joke. That's such a good joke. You know what good moms are gonna like. That's a great mom. Okay. W- we're gonna- Sorry...
okay, very briefly- Yeah... we have to talk about X. I think that this was a big ick for a lot of people on LinkedIn. Um- Why briefly? I could talk about X this whole episode. What was- Let's talk about X. Yeah, let's...
Wait, what was an ick? The, uh- The Bonnie Blue thing for- For e- No, it wasn't... for, for- No, it wasn't. Oh, okay. Okay. It wasn't the big... Oh, please. People like, they don't even care. No one gives a shit.
It's all fucking bullshit. It's all, like, ver- People just want, I mean, but people want something to be up in arms about on LinkedIn. Yeah. People want something...
'Cause you know, you can only, you can only make so many posts about how Liquid Death and Duolingo- Yeah... are revolutionizing marketing. Yeah. It's 2025 by now. Yeah, yeah, yeah.
You know, people have been harping on this for about half a decade now. Um, so they need something new. You give the people, you give the people something to pretend to have an ick about.
To pre- Yeah, to pretend to, to pretend to be upset about. I think it's great. I think it's fi- I mean- I'm upset that we don't even have a working definition of creator in 2025, and you know whose fault that is.
Francis. Mine? Francis. Yeah. Yeah, I guess. Francis. Well, you know, look, what can I say? I love pedantry. And I had to beg to be in your MySpace top four on Beehive. Mm-hmm.
I had to beg to be on your podcast- Are we gonna talk about that?... so here we are. No, we're talking about X. You had to what, Ari? I had to beg to be on your podcast, Francis. I mean, this is- You did not. No...
the fulfillment of a long- You did not... long-standing dream Look, I've been, I've been knocking down your door. This, we started this podcast almost a year ago. I've been begging on your door- Hard...
[laughs] for a year. Do, do people, do, the lo- Does, does your audience even know our relationship, Francis? Do they know the lore? Do they know the canonical- Well, you know-... lore?... the, they, they will know.
Yeah. Uh, they will have heard it in the intro. Yeah. Um, you're my, my greatest enemy, uh, longtime friend, [laughs] my former manager. This is what... I feel like I'm talking to myself in the mirror.
That's what I usually say to myself, you know? Mm-hmm. My greatest enemy and my longtime- I do have a camera set up there behind your mirror. Yeah So. My... [laughs] Yes, we worked, Francis and I, we worked together.
We were, uh, it was a beautiful time. Yeah, it was a beautiful time. Well, I'm on a text message basis with Ari's wife, and I feel like that counts for- Mm... a lot more. Also true. Also true.
We've, uh- She's a lot cooler than Ari. Surprise. Yeah. You should be chatting with her. She's sold more books than he has LinkedIn followers. That's also true. Yeah. You wanna shill your wife for a sec, Ari? Yeah.
You're a big wife guy. Yeah. Let's, let's talk about it. I'm a huge wife guy.
[laughs] Folks, if you're cycling or friends with someone who has a menstrual cycle, let me tell you, The Cycle Book is a groundbreaking study, uh, and companion to people, um-Of all proclivities and, uh, propensities.
And, um, it is a fascinating guide to, uh, understanding your body and how you can use it to advocate for yourself in a, a medical system that largely marginalizes and, and puts to the side people with uteruses.
Uh, and so I'm very proud of my wife who published this book... uh, wrote this book and got it published, and, um, is continuing to, yeah, sell it and talk about it all over the world, 'cause we're in Canada.
We're international. Mm-hmm. So- Yeah, I guess that's all over the world. Yeah. We'll, we'll link it. Tom- Please... Producer Tom, make sure to link the book- Link the cycle book... in the description. Yeah. Mm-hmm.
100%. Um, yeah, so it was, uh, that was, yeah, uh, thank you for j- I know, Daisy, you and her have been chatting, which is really sweet. I teed it up. You did. I think being a wife guy is sort of the anti-ick, so. Mm.
Wow. Fritz, are you a wife guy? You're a fiance guy. Uh, I'm a f- [laughs] I'm a fiance guy. Yeah, I'm fian- big fiance guy. I can't wait to join the ranks, uh, of this- Yeah...
you know, millions and billions of wife guys worldwide. It's a hell of a fraternity. Um, soon. [laughs] A hell of a fraternity. Yeah. You're gonna be great.
You know, I, I, I was talking to Daisy about this the other day. Yeah. You don't... You hear a lot about wife guys. [laughs] You, you don't hear a lot about, uh, husband girls. Husband ladies.
Husband l- does, husband ladies. Husband ladies. It doesn't roll off the tongue even. There's not even a word for it. Yeah. But I am one, yeah. 'Cause it's like, you know, it's 'cause women are so- Daisy is one, yeah.
Yeah. Well, you... Women are so... You are one actually, Daisy, 'cause I saw you post about your husband. Women are so what?
They're so, I think, burdened by all the nonsense they have to carry of their husbands, like all the, all the d- all the ugh, and the ennui, and the, the sort of like self-importance and the ego. Yeah.
Should, should we get Laura to call in and, and, and- Yeah, 100%, we can get her to talk about it... do that?
[laughs] Like, women are by, like, design, when women get married, they have to become husband wives, because they're, like, so- Yeah. Mm-hmm... like, they have to deal with so much bullshit and carry so much stuff.
The wife guy is more of a radical concept. Wife guy is some... It's like wife guy is like, "Oh, like I'm a man who has, like, you know, some semblance of, like, something that's happening outside of the home."
Like, "I've done the dishes." Yeah. Yeah. [laughs] Something like that. Like, "I'm not, I'm not the worst." Um, but I doubt, Daisy, you did post about, you are a, a wife, husband wife because you- [laughs]...
husband lady because you did a lovely even LinkedIn post about your husband's play, which I saw the other day. Yeah, multiple LinkedIn posts about my husband's play. Yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Mm-hmm. I wanna...
I, I would like... I would love to see that play. It actually looks like a good play about, Francis, for, for old sass boys like us. Yeah.
Well, okay, I, um, this reminds me, when we first started working together, we bonded on both having read, um, Anna Wiener's book- Yep... Uncanny Valley. Yep. Slim memoir about- Is it Weiner or Wiener? Wiener or Weiner?
Uh, that's a great question. I don't know. It's like- Wine and diner. Wine and diner. Dine and dasher.
Anyways, it's a brief memoir that came out in 2020 about, like, she was working in the publishing industry in New York, and then she moved to the Bay Area.
It's, like, two kind of, you know, anonymized startups, but I think it was, like, GitHub and somewhere else that she worked in, in customer service. And it's like- She was, like, briefly at Artsy, right? Uh, probably.
Yeah. I think so. And was there- Oh, Ari, I remember you-... there was a company called Oyster- Oyster... that was, like, a Kindle thing. There we go I, I don't know. I know that they make...
There's an Oyster that makes coolers. We're just making shit up. Um, but anyways- Sorry, Anna... uh, you... I remember you telling me how, like, y- you, it made you want to work in the software industry. Yeah.
I had a similar experience. You know, that was, like, four or five years ago now. How do you- Yeah... how do you feel now that you've spent- I don't wanna do it anymore. No, I'm just kidding.
[laughs] So wait, you read it, you read it- Yeah... about her, like, losing her soul to this- Cautionary tale, yeah, yeah... and leaving, and you were like, "That actually sounds great"? I was like, "This is great.
I gotta do it." Yeah. Mm-hmm. Yeah, yeah. Ari's a big sellout. I'm a big sellout. I was... Well, no, I was really, um, I found myself really...
I worked in the nonprof- I worked in the humanitarian and development space for, like, a decade and sort of journalism, and then I was thoroughly disillusioned at that point by, like, that whole space.
And I, I really, I, I went and worked at Kum & Go, the gas station where I bought this hat- Mm-hmm... in Iowa. You came and you went. I came and went. And I feel- As did the company.
As did the company, although they did pretty well. As did Honey Blue. [laughs] As do we all. It's, like, a great- Uh... you know, life. Uh, but yeah. Mm-hmm.
So I, I was, like, reading that book, and I was like, "God, it's horrible." And I was like, "I really wanna try. I think I can do this." And- Mm-hmm... I have found it... I actually do.
I, I was joking, but I, I actually weirdly find it to be, like, the most... I don't know. The... To me, it's, like, the most hon- it's the most honest, actually, out of all the spaces I've worked in, like, somehow.
It feels, like, the most very- The most honestly dishonest. Yeah. Yeah. It's, like, very... You're just, like, trying to... You're, like, very clearly trying to do a thing, where everyone else is like...
In the other space, you're trying to do a thing, but you're, like, framing it and all this bullshit, whether it's, like, humanitarian space or like... I remember working for the gas station chain.
It was, like, making days better was the ethos and the credo, which is, like, lovely, but, like, we're, like, selling petrol and cigarettes. Like... [laughs] And I think- Well, in the words of F.
Scott Fitzgerald, "There are only the coming, the going, the busy, and the tired." [laughs] Wow. Is that where they got the name? [laughs] And I would prefer to be busy. Well, no, I'd prefer to be coming, but- [laughs]
... busy is a close second choice. Sure. Yeah, yeah. I'm with you. Um, yeah. I think that, yeah, it was, it was, like, something that felt like, uh, fun to, like, see what it would, like, you know, be like.
And I, I actually- It's anthropological. Yeah. No, that's fair.
Well, you, you've taken to it really well, I think, because, I mean, I, I can say having worked with you, you're one of the most kind of, like, neurotically energetic and creative people I've worked with.
You know, you're kind of this- Thank you... you're kind of this force of nature, which I think in- This feels like a microaggression. A microaggression. W- well, it is. Um- Yeah. It's... I'll just blatantly say it.
I'll be actively aggressive. But no, I, I say that to say, like, I feel like v- a mindset of, like, the SaaS, the VC-funded startup world generally- Yeah... from my perspective that I've seen is, like, p-
people succeed who are, like, maniacally ambitious or, like, y- you could say, like, I don't know- Yeah... naively ambitious. Like, we're gonna do the thing, like- Yeah... the hooker by crook kind of thing. Yeah, yeah.
Which you are... Y- you're very good at that, right? And I think...
I mean, I observe w- with you and Shane, uh, like, it ma- it's a, it's kind of a match made in heaven, and you get money to do the thing, to do these ambitious campaigns- For how...
because, like, you have the idea and you're like, "It's so crazy." Yeah. "I think we could pull it off." Yeah. And you do, and that's kind of like what... That's, that's how you succeed in this world. Yeah. Yeah, yeah.
No, I think that's fair. I think that, um, I don't... I agree that there's, like, a maniacal ambition that's largely... I think it's more of a founder, like, energy thing. Mm-hmm.
Like, and there's, like, this idea to proveFounder mode Founder. I mean, and I think, you know, I...
You see it in, yeah, a l- I think any actually successful founder, uh, probably has some, like, level of, like, outsized ambition and ego and need to prove something, and it's how they, they do it or die trying.
And I think there's something about that I actually do... I do respect it. I- my thing is more, like, there's, like, a hole in- inside me that I'm trying to fill endlessly by, like- It's okay. My dad- He dug it...
didn't love me either. [laughs] Yeah. I mean, you know, that's, like, it's like I'm trying to, like, get validation. It's so... The hole is so big you had to marry a therapist. [laughs] I did, yeah.
[laughs] Yeah, we talk about it every day. That's why he's such a wife guy. That's why I'm a wife guy, yeah. He has to get at least- [laughs] He's a therapist guy. I'm a therapist wife guy. He's a therapist wife guy.
It's even worse. Yeah. Yeah. I think, so you're trying to like...
I do, I do take to that environment well because I am trying to constantly prove that I can do this thing, and I think increasingly, right, like, as you age in this industry, I, I think about that a lot 'cause I'm old, I'm 40- Mm...
and I'm doing this stuff. Yeah. And I work with a bunch of, you know, people in their 20s, and increasingly people in their early 20s.
Um, there's, like, a sense of, like, aging in this industry that I find kind of weird and sad and poetic and haunting and, like...
'Cause, like, you're, you really are do- Like, there's no re- Especially now with all the agentic bullshit, like, you're kinda cooked. Mm-hmm. Like, you're really... There's, like, what am I really doing?
And so there's, like, an interesting question, like, what does 40, or the 10 years look like in this space?
Well, I mean, someone like you though, it's like you're only, you're almost only strengthened by, like, any what- whatever AI worry because, like, y- you're a producer. Yeah. Right? Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, I'm not, like...
I, I do worry. I would... I, I don't know how I would've... I, I do think about, like, how do people start their careers now?
'Cause, like, all the stuff that I had done, I did, I used to do, right, is now very much an AI solution. Like, research- Mm...
or even, like, early blog writing or any of these things are all kind of being done now, increasingly automated. Um- But that's how I started. I- Totally, yeah. Yeah, very much...
got into the space, I was just writing, like, $20 per unique blogs- Yeah... then absolutely. So- That's how you started at... Is that... I mean, that's how you started at Air, wasn't it?
As an intern doing writing, right? Yeah. Mm-hmm. Yeah. And I think, like, I wonder if that... I don't even know if that role, forget Air, like, in general, are there people hiring interns to do writing
at, at tech startups? I don't know. I saw an interesting discourse on my timeline the other day.
It was a screenshot of a headline by Naomi Kanakia, who has contributed to Dirt, and the headline was, like, "Highbrow Literature Has a Fandom Now, and Writers Need to Know How to Manage It," I think was what it was, and somebody screenshotted it and says, said, "Why does every substack sound like this?"
And then there's all these comments of people being like, basically pretending not to understand what that headline means. And I was like, do you really not understand the headline?
Or do you just disagree with the reality of book publishing as a marketplace? Hm. Because when y- I was like, okay, let me go. I was like, that seems pretty obvious to me.
Like, when you have an audience or a fandom around highbrow literature, whatever you wanna call it, that's not necessarily contemporary literature.
If you're writing contemporary highbrow literature, you need to understand how to cultivate and manage a fandom, or you will not make money. Yeah. That to me, I'm like, okay, yeah, d- water wet.
So then I went to read it, read the full thing, and I was like, that's basically what she says. And she puts it in, like, supply and de- demand terms as well, in terms of, like,
publishing houses buy books, and at the point they buy the book, it becomes a product.
It's the same thing with paintings, which is why we call it the art market now instead of the art world, which is an insight that I stole from Fran Lebowitz. But Fran, put it in writing next time. I know you can't.
So [laughs] um, publishing, like, we still call it the publishing world. We don't call it the publishing market or the book market, but that is what it is.
And so people get really upset, and it's like you have somebody coming to you on Substack translating the economic reality, that you are claiming you dislike the semantics, but you just dislike capitalism.
And that's okay, but if you wanna write a book and sell it and not just give it away on a street corner,
you need to understand how to cultivate an audience in the same way that, like, every other, um, pillar of the entertainment industry does.
And we're dealing with, like, a lot of context collapse because music and books and blog posts are all distributed on the same platforms. And so it's like
I understand being frustrated with the reality, but I don't like the willful ignorance of attacking somebody else's semantics in writing because you can't accommodate the idea.
Um, and I think there's, like, this, this strain right now of people who, like,
want to just write off any of the market dynamics in the creative industries because they're uncomfortable with running a business or money, but they still wanna get paid, and I'm like, yeah, it sucks, but wouldn't you rather be educated, and wouldn't you rather have, like, a thesis on where things are going and be part of it?
Mm. That's where I'm like what you're saying about the thing that reminded me of that, like, like, software, SaaS, whatever you wanna call it, is in a way more honest. Yeah.
Um, because you're operating from the starting point of serving a marketplace. And I think in publishing, it's like your...
You should always come out of, come out of it and come to it from the perspective of creating and disseminating art.
But you need to recognize the point at which that art becomes a product and be able to run your mind on two parallel tracks that can accommodate the book to the extent that it's art and the book to the extent that it's product.
And if you can't, the least that you can do is not sit on Twitter and attack other people who can do that. Um, you know, then it's like shut the fuck up time.
I'm reminded of your, of your tweet, uh, a few weeks ago about the person who was, like, uh, appalled that somebody reached out to advertise in their newsletter, and you were like, "If this was me, I would have taken that money and routed it to some-Used it to hire some reporter or writer or whatever Literally could have run an essay competition on vibes, and s- they're gonna, like, give that money to somebody else.
It's- Are, are people- Yeah... really upset about, like, selling out now? Like, people are still... There's, like, this... Who's got, like, the- We've come back around to the '90s. Yeah, it feels very '90s.
It feels like... I thought, I thought sellout was em- culture was embraced now. I thought it was, like, a bad word or whatever. Well, it's like the...
I mean, it's, like, the same thing as, like, third wave gentrifiers, right? People are upset that there's, like- Mm... a Chanel store on- In Williamsburg... Bedford Avenue now. Yeah.
But there was, like, people were upset when there was, like, a Catbird and a Brooklyn Fox. But because they live- That was me. I was upset. I was, it was already- Yeah. Right. So you're like, that was already- Yeah...
like, second wave gentrification. Yeah, yeah. So I think that the layers of sellout critique actually correspond pretty well to, like, layers of, like, gentrifier critique. Yeah.
Um, where people are like, selling out is basically compulsory, but people have decided to create, like, a new hierarchy within it. I mean, there was a point at which selling out meant selling your book at all. Yeah.
Um, I think the only people who get really dinged on it now are people who've built a brand around criticizing other people for doing that or not doing that and then doing it themselves.
I don't know, having been married to someone who published a book at a major publishing house and seeing how hard it is to sell books, how excruciatingly hard it is to get people to give a shit about your book, I can say that it, it's a pretty privileged place to be like, "You don't need to give a fuck about the sale, man."
Like, dude, it's, it's hard. Like, it's, it's really hard. There's a lot of shit out there now, and I don't know, activating people around something is really tough. Getting people to like a post is tough, right? Mm.
Getting people to listen to a podcast is tough. Getting people to do fucking anything- No, I see... is hard. Or subscribe. Like,
from the perspective of, like, making money or selling something to somebody, like, and most people, if you came to them tomorrow and were like, "You need to make $1,000 in the next 24 hours,"
would run around with a chicken, like, like a chicken with their head cut off. Yeah. And I've, like, literally had to do that before, and I've done it. It wasn't fun.
[lips smack] It's almost harder to do that than it is to make $10,000 or five to $10,000. Mm. But that's essentially what you're asking people to do when you say, "Go out and sell your book." Yeah.
And, like, if you're sitting in your house and you have a great book idea and you think it's the next great American novel, picture what it would take to sell that to 100 people.
Picture what it would take to even sell that to 10 people. Yeah. And then you have a better idea of the reality, which is not really, like,
the Substacks, the availability bias of the Substacks you see where they do really catch fire, um, and c- get a lot of people paying for it. Like, that's just not gonna be the reality for most people. Um- Yeah...
so I mean, I have, like, a lot of respect for small business owners.
I think, like, whatever you're selling, I mean, drop shippers, fuck you guys, but, like, you found a way to get people to buy plastic shit, and to that, for that, I salute you because most of us can't even get people to buy [lips smack]
essays. [chuckles] Well, th- this is reminding me of, like, this cottage industry of people using AI to generate children's books that they then sell on Amazon. I saw this tweet earlier that was like- Ooh...
uh, don't give your child, like, money for Christmas or something like that.
Instead, you know, invest this much money in setting up a children's book on Amazon that'll ge- then generate you $2,000 in passive income, uh, for, you know, years of their life.
Um, I, I did wanna ask about- Wait, can I say one more thing? Okay. Yeah. Sorry. I've been talking for a while. But, like, this is my ultimate black pill. This should be a black pill for anyone.
It's almost too depressing to say. So if I personally, like Daisy Aleo though, want to go out and
write an essay right now for a mainstream publication or, like, a reported piece, I could probably get about $2,000 for it, and it'll take me a few hours to write. If I wanted to make $2,000 off of Dirt,
I would have to sell 400 monthly $5 subscriptions. So my money, like, it's easier for me to create value
on a few hours of my time right now writing an essay than it is to monetize a brand that I've build, been building for the past, like, three or four years by getting 400 people to buy a monthly subscription.
Yeah, but there are other ways you can get... You could also be like- 100%... I'm gonna throw the- I could also sell a single ad. Totally.
I'm just saying, like, when people say to people starting a Substack, "Oh, just sell subscriptions"- Yeah...
they're not taking into account that, like, my writing in the beginning, and at a certain point they bypass each other, but in the beginning, your money and labor and employment is worth more on the open marketplace than anything that you could possibly build- Yeah...
maybe even for the first 10 years that you're building it. Yeah.
Because the job that I quit to raise investment for Dirt was paying me $130,000 a year, but it would take me years for Dirt to make $130,000 a year in net revenue, despite all the value that I've created, all the writing that I've published, this whole world that I've built.
At the end of the day, I could make more money working in B2B SaaS as an employee, literally doing nothing, doing, like, bullshit job, David Graeber stuff. And so
there's, like, that is a black pill in and of itself, right? Yeah. But your, to your point, the sort of universe that you've built and the, all the kind of constellations around that that are I think probably...
revenue generating are probably longer term, gonna be more interesting for you as you build this business out, right? Like, clearly, like you, you also own a thing.
Your black pill, you're saying, is that it should be as easy to start a small business and make a good living from it as it is to be an employee.
They might have- No, I don't think it should be easy necessarily, but I'm saying like, um,
part of the reason most people don't do it is because for a very long time, your time, effort, no matter what you create, is not worth as much as your ass- Mm-hmm...
in front of a computer in an office in Midtown, and maybe never will be.
Um, so it really like challenges your idea of what value means and what it means to create value, even in like the way that Startup Hill people talk about creating value on Twitter because they all got like radicalized by that Australian startup TikTok and the product managers in the pool.
Gen Z Pass. Mini. Mm-hmm. Yeah. What's Australian? What's the Australian startup? No, it's the Gen Z- You know, the like-... Boss in a Mini. Gen Z Boss in a Mini. Oh. Gen Z Boss in a Mini. Oh. Yeah.
And those girls who were product managers who were working from the pool, but the fact of the matter is even if those girls quit their job and made a small business tomorrow, they would not be able to replace their salary.
Um, so you can get mad at individuals, but you can't get mad at the system, which is really like [laughs] designed to keep people in employment for healthcare and, um, like a living. Well, that's why I moved to Canada.
I'm gonna move to Canada. When did you move? When did, when did you move again? Two years ago. Two years ago. That's crazy. Yeah. Uh- Wait, to be clear, does your wife have Canadian citizenship- No... or you? I do.
I was born here. Okay. I was born here. So- But I, but I left when I was, uh, like six. I, I di- I never lived here really. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Um, but I have, I have a passport, so I got, we all- Give us the...
We, we had a Vancouverite on a couple weeks ago. Oh, yeah? Give us the, uh, Toronto scene report. Toronto is- Toronto, excuse me. I, I don't know. The R-O-N-T-O. I'm pronouncing it wrong. Are you saying- It's Toronto.
Sorry. What are you saying? Tor- Toronto. T-O-R- Toronto? N-N-O, right? Toronto is- Oh. Toronto. I think Toronto is... I'm, my wife and I are huge Toronto fans, and we love it. Okay. And I think it's- Go Leafs...
a really exceptional city that has, I mean, look, marred by really bad public transport and infrastructure issues, but- Mm... is, is I think, I would argue, is maybe the best sit- food city in the world. Um- Whoa...
unexpected, but- I don't know... you have, you ha- it's the most international city I've ever lived in. You have pocket... And I'm talking about the greater Toronto area. More than New York? Yeah, I think so. Yeah, yeah.
Well, you know, you know, we also aren't like banning like citizens from like 37 countries from coming here, so- We're not banning citizens period... Or yeah, I mean, or just banning every- Just citizens.
So I think there's like a feeling of, it's no utopia, but, uh, you know, we have like, you know, we have a great, we have a really quite progressive, uh, mayor and, uh, I think a city that values like...
I don't know, it's a great city to have kids in. We live on a lake- Yeah...
you can swim in, and it's not like a garbage town, and, uh, there's markedly less violence than living in the US, and I don't worry about my children being able to access birth control.
So for me, it's a, it's a win, and, uh, I don't think... Again, it's not perfect, but I think, yeah, we, we feel quite lucky that we can live here, uh, and that we can- Yeah.
Do you miss anything about Iowa, where you were before? I love Iowa. I love Iowa. I gotta get my hat. Where's the hat? Put the hat back on. [laughs] The hat. I put the hat back on, goddammit, for Iowa.
Oh, I didn't realize you were actually living in Iowa. Oh, yeah. I thought you were living in New York and working for- I was. I went to NYU. That was the impression I tried to give.
I, I lived in New York for a long time. [laughs] Is that the impression I tried to give? I am fucking, I, my bro- I hate New York is my thing. Mm-hmm. That's my- Hmm. Milton Glazer, eat your heart out. [laughs] Hate it.
[laughs] Like, don't like it, don't wanna live there. Lived there for a long time. I don't hate it, but I, my brother lives there, my friends are there, but I, uh- I live there... I met my wife. You live there?
He's, he's on the front lines- No... gentrifying Williamsburg. He, he's... [laughs] Yeah, I just don't, uh, I find it, um... Yeah, it's not for me. He bought the first cortado in Williamsburg.
[laughs] Who, me or my brother? Me? You. [laughs] I did buy the first... I was used to go to Marlow & Sons and buy cortados. Which just closed. I know. End of an era, man. Yeah.
Now it's- Who threw the first brick at Cha Cha Matcha? [laughs] My brother used to work at Cha Cha Matcha. Um- That's... Okay, so that was a shot in the dark. I actually didn't know that. Yeah, yeah, true. Anyway, I...
No, I, I don't hate New York. I shouldn't say that 'cause I, because we also are a New York-based company, and I, we, I'm there constantly now. Well, it's no utopia. Mm-hmm. [laughs] Well, what is? Uh, I just...
I don't know. I mean, look, Mamdani, lotta, lotta wind in the old sails. Mm-hmm. Don't tell the tech bros, but I think that's exciting. Yeah. Zoran's New York, baby. Zoran's New York, man.
Things- It's the Mamdanissance... things can shift. Mam- [laughs] the Mamdanissance, I like that. That's, it's, uh, that's pretty... I mean, that's quite exciting to see that things are possible. Mm-hmm.
Um, so- Well, I mean, the, the city's gonna crumble now because everyone's, uh, you know, everyone's gonna move to Palm Springs now. Well, I can't go there now 'cause I'm Jewish- Yeah...
and of course I can't be in Mamdani's New York 'cause of the- Yeah, they're actually putting up a little, a wall... the pogroms that are coming and the, the camps they're gonna build now for the Jews. Oh.
But, uh, yeah, no, it's, um... I thought that. I was in New York when he got ele- or not elected, but when he was, uh, won the primary. That was really- A month ago... really exciting. Really cool to see.
I think the actual ranked choice vote counts today. Should come out today. I'm excited to see that. You know- Yeah... Ridgewood went plus 69 for- 66. Yeah, it was crazy, Ridgewood... Commie Corridor. Yeah.
The Co- the Commie Corridor is amazing. It's amazing. It's great. Well- It's like... I don't know. I just, I love it... I'm also Jewish, and in between stealing tables, I voted. You're Jewish?
Zoran was always quite nice to me. You knew that. Did I know you were Jewish? Mm-hmm. We've had this conversation. I'm Italian- You're Jewish and Italian... and Jewish. Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah. That's right.
We have had that conversation. You are what my, you are what my children- Yeah, that's why I'm so dangerous... what, what my children will be one day is Jew- [laughs]... Italian Jews. Yeah. Um, worst of both worlds.
No, I'm just kidding. Uh- No, it's- It's the best... it's very much the case. Ask my husband, Guy. The- Your husband [laughs] My wife. Ask my wife, Guy. [laughs] Ask, ask the wife, Guy, what he thinks. Um, yeah.
Yeah, yeah, yeah. Uh, but I like Toronto. I, I re- it's also Canadians have such an insecurity and inferiority complex a- about themselves in general- Mm... but especially in Toronto to New York.
And, like, all my friends in Toronto, and I, I do extoll the virtues- Can't be worse than the San Franciscans, though. I don't know, man. People here are really down on themselves.
I mean, the reality is, this country, like, you can't really make money in it, and so that keeps everyone at a certain level ofEither like down, but also like everyone wants to move to the States.
I mean, they're like dying to move to the States. Mm-hmm. Anyone who has like an idea wants to go to the States to make, to make it. But it's like buying a lottery ticket though. Moving to the States? The American dream.
Yeah. The American dream. But it's still, it's very much alive and well in Toronto. I would say like all these smart kids who are...
We work with, uh, we have inter- like interns and stuff are like very, and they're like really, really intelligent, ambitious, uh, young people are like New York 100% or San Francisco.
What amount of money would they be happy with? And- They-... do they wanna pay it out in rent? [chuckles] That's a good question. I don't know.
There's just a sense that you can go and make hundreds of thousands of dollars a year, um, you know, many times over and that in Canada- Mm... it's really, there aren't really many opportunities to get mega rich here.
You really can't get like supremely wealthy in Canada- Yeah... my, my way I understand it. Um, unless- Um... you inherit money. Yeah. Uh, I, I keep wanting to bring, I'm just gonna bring up now the, the Cluley thing.
You posted about this on LinkedIn. Uh, it was like the day we were gonna, we were gonna- Yeah... to the listener, we were gonna have Ari on a couple weeks ago. There was some technical difficulties on my side.
Um, uh, but, uh, you had just posted about the Cluley video, which had just come out. Yeah. It's like this insane, like, uh, when you said like- I love it...
opportunities to get rich, I'm thinking of it 'cause it's like 30 19-year-olds. Yeah. I'm, you know, generalizing a little bit there. No, no, you're quite right though. Uh, it's just like pure distribution. Yeah.
Um, pure like, like it... I don't know, it seems like such a pure expression of like VC-funded startupdom. Yeah. It's like pure nihilism. I think it's fantastic. I really like it. I'm into it. I support it.
I, I wanna be more involved in it. I met some of the people who work there. I, I like got on calls with them 'cause I wanted to- Oh... understand how they think about it. Um, I mean, I think- Tell us more about that...
I think it's... I mean, listen, I think the product, I think every, the pro...
I mean, I s- the problem with like criticizing AI tech is that you sound like a boomer and like a decel, and like everyone dismisses you for that. And they're like, "Well, of course he would say that.
He's 40 and like a loser."
But like, I think every AI product which is like designed to make you not think is fucked, and like a tool for only like turning you into a soft-brained like, like bootlicking fucking f- victim of like whatever fascist nightmare we get.
And like we deserve whatever we get if this is the fucking... Like Cluley's literal memo is like, "Never think again." Like never- Never think, shit on everything. N- yeah. And they say...
And I think that that's like a really fascinating like marker of like whatever Gen Z nihilism is. Well, I think this is part of A16Z's accelerationism. Mm. Yeah. Anyway.
That they deci- like every couple of years they just appoint a random representative of complete accelerationism, nihilism, whatever you wanna call it. Yeah. Economic, intellectual, and political breakdown.
Yeah. Just because they have the money and they can. But my question is like is that gonna work? Is that what the people want?
Because I personally think the tech right made a huge mistake in wedding themselves to the Trump administration- Mm... in hopes of getting some of the stuff they want. Well, there was just that thing today.
The beau- big beautiful bill or whatever. They voted 99 to 1 to take out the clause saying that states couldn't regulate AI for the next 10 years. Mm-hmm. Mm.
Well, the tech right got in bed with the Trump administration thinking it would allow them to enact more of the agenda, but if they're wrong, um, the majority of the American public has already turned against Silicon Valley, and their kind of big hope for power w- is, um,
now in AI. Like, if they cannot have successful political power and the pendulum swings back to more socialist ideas like Zoran's- Yeah... ideas because- Yeah...
people are like, "Wow, like first administration felt like populism. This felt like populism plus Elon Musk and all these like weird, creepy people like Peter Thiel." Does this one even feel like populism though?
I feel like- Yeah... that facade has, has quickly fallen, though I'm honestly like They, they have no... Silicon Valley has squandered all soft power. People don't think founders are cool anymore.
They don't think Jeff Bezos is cool. They don't think Mark Zuckerberg's cool.
They think being rich is cool, but if you align yourself with an administration that will actually inhibit the economy and people don't get rich, your only hope for like hard power, not even soft power, is to just destroy
any agency that American public has by infiltrating AI into everything, and they've put all of their eggs into that basket. I think it'll work. Because if these AI companies don't succeed, there's no like...
A- all the venture dollars in the US are gonna get washed out. Ari said do you think it'll work? Yeah. I think it, I think it's working. I think it's happening. I think I look at- Too big to fail...
my, uh, my, my, uh, dad and his wife keep sharing these AI, and I don't know if they even know they're AI, that it's AI, these AI videos about like [chuckles]
like insane, like, like insane AI shit about, uh, Iran and, uh- Okay... Netanyahu and Greta Thunberg and stuff like that. And I think that
for them, like already I think Instagram and the algorithm were all kind of like, uh, supplanting critical thought, but I think AI is gonna be the nail in the coffin for a great many people.
Uh, and I think we're, we have- Well, then we're gonna have to have UBI for all these people- Mm... who like literally can't read to live off of- Yeah, I don't know... 'cause nobody's gonna have a job. Yeah.
And that, that I don't know if there'll be some sense. I don't know what that'll be. But that'll, uh, yeah, I think they'll, I think they'll succeed, don't you? They're pretty scary.
I mean, the, the primary criticism of Democrats for so long was like the welfare state, you're creating people that don't work. Yeah. You're creating people reliant on the government.
Well, what happens when AI replaces everyone's job? They're creating essentially a caste system of people with critical thinking and without critical thinking. Yeah, I don't know. That's bad news.
But I do like Cluley's marketing, and I think they're doing a great job unironically At the end of the day, we just want these little kids to succeed and- You know, you know what's gonna happen?
The, the Cluley marketing team, um, some tech right candidate is gonna hire them to try to replicate- Totally. 100%... Zoran on social media. They, they should.
Well, I mean, in a way, what Cluley's doing is just like what the Tru- what the Trump campaign did, actually. I mean, it's not- Yeah.
It is like, it's like slightly less memetic warfare and more into like UGC with like-Like literally like endless kids pumping shit with like really high-gloss fucking production. Mm-hmm.
Um, but like it's kind of the same thing really, and like unapologetic founder. He's doing like a Trump, Trump, Elon Musk thing anyway, right? Like no publicity is good, bad, and like- Yeah...
it's all dick jokes and like strippers and whatever, and it's like kind of the same shit. I don't know. It's basically the Trump playbook for getting elected.
Okay, but let's talk, let's talk about another dumbing down as it were. Um, so your LinkedIn posts usually do pretty good. I found one- [coughs]... a month or so ago that didn't do as well. Thank you for that.
That was- It happens... of, it was, it was you repo- It was you. You'd like downloaded a video from some, some influencer's account and re-uploaded it.
Um, and it was all the like the silly little things you could do at Figma's config conference. Uh, and you were like- Oh, yeah... hot take It didn't do... I don't like to be negative. This stuff is actually dumb.
You know, I don't like to be negative on LinkedIn, but sometimes I, I am, and that was a ne- I was negative because I do.
That shit, when they do like the ba- I hate, don't you hate when they do, they treat you like a baby at stuff, when they're like there's the teddy bear station, like the Build-A-Bears. They're like- Yeah...
"What are we doing here, folks?" We're like, presumably you're in your 20s. Like- Well, okay, I don't, I think you were here for this. Yeah.
Uh, this must be what you were, um, referencing that you were here for last week. Air just threw an event where they trayp- you guys tray passed cigarettes. We did. It was like the opposite of that. Yeah.
We gave out cigs, baby. Cigs are back. Okay. Did anybody smoke them, and could you smoke them inside? A lot of people smoked them, and you could not smoke them inside. That's a, that's a pity.
You know- Yeah, it is a pity... uh, I was reminiscing, Daisy. I was just in Berlin, and I was reminded, I was looking at my phone, uh, we,
we workshop- a- as we were workshopping the logo for this podcast, I was smoking cigs inside- Ugh... at a bar in Berlin. Ugh. It was great. Ugh.
Um, so I think there should be more, I think [laughs] we should relegalize smoking indoors. [laughs] Um, why, yeah, why, why cigs? Why, why, why did you guys, why were you pressing on cigs?
I, I think we just thought it was funny that bad- Bad air... we said bad air was funny. I like bad air and good air. Okay. And so I thought, and, and I think cigs are back- I liked it... in New York.
Uh, whenever I come back to New York, everyone's smoking again, which is I think is actually great or a recession indicator. But regardless- Are, were you smoking? I did not smoke a cig last time.
You can wink if you, if you just [laughs] No, I didn't. [laughs] I have had a cig- I'll think about it... on occasion, though. I will, I will smoke a cigarette and- Mm-hmm... enjoy it a lot.
[laughs] So- You can enjoy it. I will. I'll allow myself that. Yeah, we did it in business. Ari, what is... It, it's, it's notable to me that your name is one letter off from the company that you work for. Yeah.
[laughs] That's right. Who, who is- Yeah, people think he's the founder... who is Ari and who is Air? Ugh, God, you know, if I had a nickel... Well, the- [laughs]...
the great story, Daisy, is that my name isn't even Ari. Uh, it's Ariel. I don't even go by Ari. I knew that from talking to your wife. Yeah. And she refers to you as Ariel.
And all my friends and family are like, "Why are you, why are you going by Ari?" It's his, it's his SaaS persona. It's my SaaS persona.
I just, when I interviewed at the company, I thought it'd be, I thought, I was like, "Oh, my na- what's the email?" And they're like, "It's air.inc." And I was like, "Oh, it'd be funny if it was Ari @ air.inc."
Um- But that's his email now. And it is. You can email his- It is. Right, you can email it. It's- Every time you email me, I'm like, "That's good. That's a good joke." I know. That's good.
I know, and that's how I feel too. It's a good fit. So I'm like, "It's great." I, I did it for that reason. Not as sexy as daisy@dir.fyi, but it's up there. Daisy@dir.fyi is much sexier than ari@air.inc. Yeah.
But I, I enjoy it, and, uh, I, I have like gone by Ari on occasion the best, but Ariel is, is my actual name. And, uh, yeah, so I, I don't know. That's the, the where does Ari, that's where...
But I have been working here for a long time. Almost, it's almost been four years, uh, at air.inc, which is fucking lifetime- That is some time... in, in tech, and it's been a real ride.
So- I don't think I've stayed anywhere four years. I, this is the longest I've, this is the longest I've worked anywhere, uh, in my life. So it's, it's crazy- Um-... 'cause I- Wait... it's a pretty flighty industry.
Yeah. I wa- so when, when we- Lot of homey hoppers in SaaS. [laughs] Homey hoppers. Lot of homey hoppers. Uh, you've had both, you're like the head of content at Air now. Yeah.
Previously, you've been the head of comms or similar title. Yeah. Is there any substantive difference between those? I feel like maybe there used to be, but maybe there isn't anymore.
What's, what is content versus comms? Yeah. There's not really. I mean, I think that con-co- I was director of comms, I guess, and this- Excuse me...
sort of like folded in now into all the things we- At Come and Go or at the Red Cross? At Come and Go and here. No, at, at the Red Cross I was the head. But when you joined Air, yeah, you were comms. I forgot about that.
I was comms. And I, I think actually the more substantive difference is the person we hired to be our head of marketing, who you met at the Webbys as well, who's- Yeah... this guy Jess- This guy...
who came from, a really nice guy and a really intelligent, uh- He's at Duolingo and Figma, right? Yeah. And he's just like, you know, we're obviously very different.
We, what we, what we do is very different, and he is a real marketer in the sense of like understanding how marketing [laughs] works, which is like not something I really can do from a- Yeah... in any meaningful way.
Like, I can try to think of like a clever way to fold in a porn star to a, a video, but, but he can like figure out how to like bring people along that journey of figuring out how to bring them into the Air ecosystem.
Distribute it. Yeah. And that is- Well, you got like risk and bets. Yeah. And I think we actually, it's nice to work with, with a marketing person now, like a lead marketing head who can like...
I, I think we work, it's nice to have that, that role here. Like comms I feel like is like what is c- yeah, do you want like, what, a fucking writer to press release that no one reads or like a blog post no one looks at?
So I think like, yeah, like with, with Beehive, like Tyler, our comms is like Tyler writing his newsletter to 100,000 people- Yeah...
every week and like talking about how this company, it, we acquired TypeDream like a, a year ago, and that was his- Mm-hmm... that was his newsletter today, is like the story behind the acquisiti- acquisition, whatever.
Yeah. Um, and it's like he doesn't need- Yeah... a comms person because he just knows how to write and is opinionated. Well, he's like a great example of like a founder who's like,
I mean, not dissimilar from Roy at- From the-... Gluli. Like it's like- The Gluli guys, yeah. Yeah. There's just- It's just a different medium...
like become the story, lead, be the story, do real founder led in a way that's people actually give a shit and wanna follow you and be like a little dangerous. Notice this works better for men than women. Yeah, I agree.
This is a good point. You're absolutely right. You're absolutely right 'cause these men are all unapologetically fucking assholes, and they like own it, and that's like part of the vibe.
And when women do that- Hear that, Tyler? [laughs] They get [laughs]... Well, when women do that, they just get fucking, they get usually like shit on. No, you get girl bossed. Yeah. Yeah.
It was like, it was like that post you did like on Tristan a couple weeks ago when, uh, Emily Sundberg and Rachel Cardin were at Apple, and they were like- Oh, yeah... Puck was like, "Oh."
And Puck was like demeaning them. Yeah. [laughs] I was like- Well, yeah, it was, I think it was like a little too focused on age cohort. Yeah.
At the same time, like Tina Brown wrote the only good thing about the Bezos wedding, and she's still cooking. Mm-hmm. So there have definitely been...
I mean, also, like who is it, Mina just raised like a ton of money for her, uh, AI startup. Which one? Uh, beats me, which is I'm partly to blame. Mira. It's Mira Murati. She- Oh, yeah, from Open- yeah...
just raised a monster round for it. Well, the AI people can do whatever they want. Like, I don't think it matters anymore. Yeah, people can do whatever they want. Yeah.
But I would say in terms of startup founders, especially as it pertains to women in media, it's rough out there. Yeah, I can see that. Mm-hmm. I can see that, but you're carrying the flag, Daisy. I'm trying. All right.
I think that's a good place to end it. [laughs] Yeah. All right. This has been Tasteland. Thank you for coming on, Ari. Hey, thanks for having me. We'll do it again sometime. All right. Well, appreciate you guys. Cheers.
Bye. Nice to see you. [outro music]