WEBVTT

1
00:00:00.100 --> 00:00:17.040
[upbeat music] Welcome back to Tasteland. I am your co-host, Francis Zehrer. And I'm Daisy Alioto. And today we're talking with Ariel Rubin, who is the head of content at Air.

2
00:00:17.420 --> 00:00:23.980
Full disclosure, my former employer, my former boss. [laughs] Uh, one of the most fun people to work with I've ever worked with.

3
00:00:24.020 --> 00:00:36.900
He's kind of an insanely creative, risk-taking type of marketer, uh, in a, in a, in, in a world of software where so much is really boring. Um, I learned a lot from him, working with him.

4
00:00:37.020 --> 00:00:46.420
So one of my greatest enemies, uh, and mentors. [laughs] Facts. Um- Facts... and I met... Well, I know him as Ari.

5
00:00:47.120 --> 00:01:00.780
Um, we are working together on a new Instagram native magazine for creative complaining through Dart, edited by Danny Loftus, who we'll definitely have on the podcast at some point. And it's called Ick, ick.fyi.

6
00:01:00.820 --> 00:01:09.800
You should definitely be following it. We're asking- Mm... cool people what they hate. Hm. Sort of the inverse Perfectly Imperfect. [laughs] The inverse Perfectly Imperfect.

7
00:01:09.880 --> 00:01:18.190
You know, they need a, they need [laughs] they need a Wario, I think- To-... so he could burst the, the industrial complex. And let me tell you, I have so many icks, but most of them- Okay, give me-...

8
00:01:18.190 --> 00:01:24.270
are moral in nature. And we did get into that... Moral. You're a moral person. You're- This episode is a little bit political, trigger warning, so if it's- Mm-hmm...

9
00:01:24.270 --> 00:01:35.350
not the vibe for you right now, if you don't wanna think about- [laughs]... the future of America, maybe- There's vibes good and bad... or Canada- Good and bad... Ari- Or Canada... Ari is in Toronto. Um- Mm.

10
00:01:35.400 --> 00:01:43.120
Yeah, I think- Yeah, we got a report from the north. [laughs] From the six. I'm trying to think of an, a recent ick that I've only arrived at this week.

11
00:01:43.240 --> 00:01:54.720
Well, this morning, Natasha Hoskins, former Boys Club guest, texted me- Hm... that she gets the ick when men do the phone eats first. Like, they take a photo- Fuck, I've done that... of their food before they...

12
00:01:54.840 --> 00:02:05.130
Well- Yeah... so you- you're not for her, but that's okay. Yeah, that's okay. Um, there's somebody for everyone. [laughs] My icks, you know, it's funny when people talk about icks in a romantic context. I saw that, um,

13
00:02:06.160 --> 00:02:15.020
Magdalene Taylor, who we should totally have on some point. Hm. Um, she has a great Substack. I, I had- Yeah... to look up what it's called. Follow her on Twitter. Easy to find. Mm-hmm.

14
00:02:15.549 --> 00:02:22.980
Um, she went through a few different trends in dating right now. She talked about the materialists and what's going on at Bumble, which just had a ton of layoffs.

15
00:02:23.100 --> 00:02:32.730
Uh, there's something about the matchmaking service and the materialists that's very mathematical, and so she's basically talking about how dating isn't mathematical.

16
00:02:32.850 --> 00:02:47.340
And to that point, I think when you like somebody, you don't get the ick, even things that would really [laughs] give you the ick. And I can tell you, um, the, the amount of ick latitude Ben has in our marriage- Hm...

17
00:02:47.350 --> 00:02:59.609
uh, and as well, and me as well is, like, truly astronomical. He and I, um... So he's, like, he's, like, pretty sensitive to heat, and so I usually drive him- Hm... to the station in the morning.

18
00:02:59.640 --> 00:03:07.780
It's like a 10-minute walk, but I'm like- You don't want him to overheat- And he has to-... it's sweaty... overheat before he even starts his commute. Like, that sucks. So I drive him to the station.

19
00:03:07.900 --> 00:03:18.019
He's gonna muss his tie. I... Well, he doesn't wear a tie, [laughs] let me tell you. But, uh, we usually get coffee together at the station, and then, um, you know, say goodbye for the day.

20
00:03:18.500 --> 00:03:27.109
We're standing about to order our coffee, and I was like, "Something looks off with his shirt," and I realize it's inside out. Hm. So I'm like, "Baby, [laughs] your, your shirt's inside out.

21
00:03:27.180 --> 00:03:35.470
You gotta go to the bathroom and fix it." And he comes back- He said, "No." No, he fixes it, and he's like, "I also forgot my belt." And I'm like, "Well, who cares about the belt?"

22
00:03:35.520 --> 00:03:41.679
And he was like- If he was wearing a tie, he could've used it as a belt... it's, he's like, "It's gonna be really annoying." [laughs] And I was like, "I got nothing for you." Like, I don't...

23
00:03:42.420 --> 00:03:52.400
Not enough time to go home and get the belt, even if I had wanted to, and nothing on my person that could function as a belt. So I mean, whatever. That's, that's not, that wasn't the biggest problem. What's the ick?

24
00:03:52.410 --> 00:04:01.980
Where's the ick here? Well, if you went to a first date with a guy and his shirt was inside out, how would you fucking feel? Well, it's, it's not a first date. [laughs] That's what I'm saying, though.

25
00:04:02.000 --> 00:04:07.580
It's like you're- That's what I'm saying. [laughs] Icks really only matter when you're getting to know somebody. Yeah. Uh-huh.

26
00:04:07.980 --> 00:04:20.500
Once you establish a baseline level of intimacy, short of the revelation that somebody's, like, a horrible person, and let me tell you, it's happened to me, [laughs] nothing is gonna, like, ick you out. Yeah.

27
00:04:20.660 --> 00:04:30.650
So I think, like, this conversation around icks, especially in dating, which I think really comes to mind when people hear the word ick, even though we're more interested in, like, creative and workplace icks- Hm...

28
00:04:30.920 --> 00:04:41.580
it's really only relevant for people that are, like, just getting to know each other. Yeah. 23-year-olds. [laughs] 23-year-olds. Yeah, sure. [laughs] Wow. Um, this, this- What did 23-year-olds do to you, Francis?

29
00:04:41.780 --> 00:04:51.560
Now you gotta tell me- Well, one time I-... some of your icks. I'm, I'm... Well, this whole time I- You're German, so I know you have a lot. [laughs] I've been so... I've i- ick been unbent [laughs] Oh, good one.

30
00:04:51.620 --> 00:04:59.720
Okay, no. [laughs] I'm... This whole time I've been stalling 'cause I've been trying to think of some, but I think... I'm a really, I'm a really tolerant person. Um, I don't know. You are very tolerant. Yeah.

31
00:04:59.760 --> 00:05:09.200
Much to, to, to, to my chagrin. To my fiance's chagrin. You and I both don't like time wasters, though. Yeah. Well- I think when you and I have both gotten- But I put up with them. Oh, yeah. I have...

32
00:05:09.460 --> 00:05:18.880
See, I, I, this is actually, this is, this is a problem. Mm-hmm. A personal problem of mine i- like, I'm really bad at leaving conversations, say, at a party. Mm. Um, an ick maybe...

33
00:05:19.000 --> 00:05:27.980
One thing, one thing that, one thing that really disgusts me, um, as this has kinda been a theme over the, [laughs] over the year we've been recording this podcast, I feel like I've been souring on restaurant culture.

34
00:05:28.280 --> 00:05:37.360
Oh, yeah. And so I saw... My friend sent me, like, an Instagram reel the other day of the line outside Golden Diner. No. And it was at least 100 people in there. No. I like that restaurant a lot.

35
00:05:37.460 --> 00:05:45.040
I used to go there a lot before it blew up on TikTok, and I will never go there again, right? So I think- You know waiting in line gives me the ick. [laughs] Yeah, exactly.

36
00:05:45.100 --> 00:05:55.060
So I think, I, I think I used to be more tolerant on waiting in line for stuff, and now it's like, if it's, like, gonna be more than a 15-minute wait, like, you know, s- say it's, like, the morning. I'm...

37
00:05:55.100 --> 00:06:09.304
Like Radio Bakery or something. Um, I know that line's gonna move 15 minutes and so... But if it's like, uh, 200 people, um, I just think you should be ashamed of yourself. Here's an ick: having no shame.Oh, 100%. Yeah.

38
00:06:09.344 --> 00:06:13.844
No shame I would wait, I would wait in line for an author to sign my book in that way. Oh, I don't do that.

39
00:06:14.044 --> 00:06:21.563
Every time I've- [laughs] This, th- in the past year I've gone, like three or four times I've gone to McNally Jackson for readings. Every time I, I dip as soon as it's time. I don't need that.

40
00:06:22.324 --> 00:06:28.484
I would wait in line for an author to sign my book if I really cared about them. Mm-hmm. I should revise. Um- This, well, this reminds me.

41
00:06:28.504 --> 00:06:39.104
On my favorite podcast recently, Fashion Neurosis by Bella Freud, she al- she has, she always asks people the same questions, but one of them is, uh, um... She has a great voice. I'm not gonna judge it.

42
00:06:39.124 --> 00:06:49.984
When are we having old Bella on the pod? Oh, I mean, I, I would love to. Old Bella. Old is a sign of respect in my world. It is. No, that's... You are assuming something about my tone of voice that, that was not in it.

43
00:06:50.064 --> 00:07:00.724
Uh, but- Rick... she always asks people, um, "If you're attracted to somebody, um, but you dislike the, something they're wearing- Mm-hmm... does that kill your attraction?" And it's always really interesting.

44
00:07:00.804 --> 00:07:10.684
The, it's not... The answers are kind of pretty evenly split. But- They're lying... it's a good specific if They're lying. If you're attracted to somebody, I don't think it matters what they're wearing. Mm-hmm.

45
00:07:11.264 --> 00:07:24.144
You know what does matter? How they smell. How they smell. And I don't mean the good or bad binary. I mean, like- Like aura... that's the... Attraction is chemical. It is. If the chemistry is there- Mm...

46
00:07:24.204 --> 00:07:40.944
it's, it doesn't matter. [upbeat music] You did a campaign with Bonnie Blue three months ago. Oh. How was that? Is that where we're starting? That's w- we're starting, that's where we're starting.

47
00:07:41.264 --> 00:07:53.544
Uh, I thought this was, I thought this was hilarious. I saw it, um, on LinkedIn probably- Yeah... or you texted it to me or something. Yeah. Uh, and I mean, the, my favorite part of this was how many people hated it.

48
00:07:54.704 --> 00:08:06.564
Yeah. I mean, you know, sometimes you gotta, you gotta... You know, when you're trying to touch the white hot core of culture, you know, the burning- Mm. Blue heat... molten- Mm... blue heat, magma. Bonnie Blue heat.

49
00:08:06.944 --> 00:08:18.404
Mm-hmm. So the Bonnie Blue heat- [laughs] Uh, you know, you're gonna, you're gonna alienate some people, I think. Mm-hmm. But that's okay. We like that. I, I like that. I think that's good. I think it's fun. I...

50
00:08:18.484 --> 00:08:31.524
You know, I was on, I was on [laughs] LinkedIn today, and I was reading this woman, um, who's, who's, who posted about this, like, tea kettle she likes, this pink tea kettle. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. It's called a Smeg.

51
00:08:32.334 --> 00:08:35.624
I think that's how you pronounce it. A Smeg, yeah. Classic. And it was... I'm gonna send this to you both after.

52
00:08:35.664 --> 00:08:41.344
I don't know if this is good for the pod, but I was just reading, and it was some of the worst shit I'd ever read. It was so embarrassing.

53
00:08:41.394 --> 00:08:48.084
And I understand we're all, like, living in it, and I'm not, like, a purist, and I do it every day, but it was like this millen- She was, like, talking about that.

54
00:08:48.124 --> 00:08:53.094
She's like, she's like, she is, she is el- She kept calling the Meg, the Smeg a she. The Smeg. Yeah.

55
00:08:53.164 --> 00:09:00.464
And, uh, it was just like, it was, it made me so uncomfortable and sad and feel hollowed out, and like, everything is so bad o- I think on LinkedIn.

56
00:09:00.584 --> 00:09:10.514
And, um, I think it's fun to, to do stuff that gets people, uh, all up in a tizzy, and, uh, it was really, it was a, it was a fun ca- I mean, like, look, what are you gonna...

57
00:09:10.514 --> 00:09:20.884
You know, Francis, you know how it is working in the old SAS game. You gotta stand out, you gotta try to, you know, try to take a few swings and, um- Mm-hmm... yeah. It was g- it was, I, you know, I, I'm proud of it.

58
00:09:20.984 --> 00:09:29.584
My mom really liked it, and she doesn't like anything I do, so. Yeah. Well, she did, she, why did she s- s- She was like- SpeciallY like the campaign?... "Oh, that's a good, that's a good one. That's funny.

59
00:09:29.824 --> 00:09:35.284
That makes, I like that." [laughs] She's like, "Oh, that's fun." I mean, listen, it's funny. It's a funny idea. Also, it's, like, not even the original.

60
00:09:35.304 --> 00:09:42.624
My mom liked it when I was in Playboy, 'cause she was- You were in Playboy?... one of those people. My daughter was in Playboy. Yeah, as a writer. Oh, I only- But-... I only read it for the articles.

61
00:09:42.824 --> 00:09:50.724
[laughs] Yeah, exactly. It's a g- She thought it was very funny to be able to make that joke. That's such a good joke. You know what good moms are gonna like. That's a great mom. Okay. W- we're gonna- Sorry...

62
00:09:50.734 --> 00:10:01.324
okay, very briefly- Yeah... we have to talk about X. I think that this was a big ick for a lot of people on LinkedIn. Um- Why briefly? I could talk about X this whole episode. What was- Let's talk about X. Yeah, let's...

63
00:10:01.364 --> 00:10:10.504
Wait, what was an ick? The, uh- The Bonnie Blue thing for- For e- No, it wasn't... for, for- No, it wasn't. Oh, okay. Okay. It wasn't the big... Oh, please. People like, they don't even care. No one gives a shit.

64
00:10:10.784 --> 00:10:16.424
It's all fucking bullshit. It's all, like, ver- People just want, I mean, but people want something to be up in arms about on LinkedIn. Yeah. People want something...

65
00:10:16.674 --> 00:10:26.434
'Cause you know, you can only, you can only make so many posts about how Liquid Death and Duolingo- Yeah... are revolutionizing marketing. Yeah. It's 2025 by now. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

66
00:10:26.543 --> 00:10:34.303
You know, people have been harping on this for about half a decade now. Um, so they need something new. You give the people, you give the people something to pretend to have an ick about.

67
00:10:34.314 --> 00:10:43.484
To pre- Yeah, to pretend to, to pretend to be upset about. I think it's great. I think it's fi- I mean- I'm upset that we don't even have a working definition of creator in 2025, and you know whose fault that is.

68
00:10:43.964 --> 00:10:54.824
Francis. Mine? Francis. Yeah. Yeah, I guess. Francis. Well, you know, look, what can I say? I love pedantry. And I had to beg to be in your MySpace top four on Beehive. Mm-hmm.

69
00:10:55.404 --> 00:11:02.114
I had to beg to be on your podcast- Are we gonna talk about that?... so here we are. No, we're talking about X. You had to what, Ari? I had to beg to be on your podcast, Francis. I mean, this is- You did not. No...

70
00:11:02.124 --> 00:11:09.514
the fulfillment of a long- You did not... long-standing dream Look, I've been, I've been knocking down your door. This, we started this podcast almost a year ago. I've been begging on your door- Hard...

71
00:11:09.524 --> 00:11:18.744
[laughs] for a year. Do, do people, do, the lo- Does, does your audience even know our relationship, Francis? Do they know the lore? Do they know the canonical- Well, you know-... lore?... the, they, they will know.

72
00:11:18.864 --> 00:11:31.303
Yeah. Uh, they will have heard it in the intro. Yeah. Um, you're my, my greatest enemy, uh, longtime friend, [laughs] my former manager. This is what... I feel like I'm talking to myself in the mirror.

73
00:11:31.424 --> 00:11:40.904
That's what I usually say to myself, you know? Mm-hmm. My greatest enemy and my longtime- I do have a camera set up there behind your mirror. Yeah So. My... [laughs] Yes, we worked, Francis and I, we worked together.

74
00:11:41.384 --> 00:11:50.614
We were, uh, it was a beautiful time. Yeah, it was a beautiful time. Well, I'm on a text message basis with Ari's wife, and I feel like that counts for- Mm... a lot more. Also true. Also true.

75
00:11:50.624 --> 00:11:58.904
We've, uh- She's a lot cooler than Ari. Surprise. Yeah. You should be chatting with her. She's sold more books than he has LinkedIn followers. That's also true. Yeah. You wanna shill your wife for a sec, Ari? Yeah.

76
00:11:58.924 --> 00:12:01.584
You're a big wife guy. Yeah. Let's, let's talk about it. I'm a huge wife guy.

77
00:12:01.984 --> 00:12:19.040
[laughs] Folks, if you're cycling or friends with someone who has a menstrual cycle, let me tell you, The Cycle Book is a groundbreaking study, uh, and companion to people, um-Of all proclivities and, uh, propensities.

78
00:12:19.080 --> 00:12:29.900
And, um, it is a fascinating guide to, uh, understanding your body and how you can use it to advocate for yourself in a, a medical system that largely marginalizes and, and puts to the side people with uteruses.

79
00:12:30.160 --> 00:12:41.120
Uh, and so I'm very proud of my wife who published this book... uh, wrote this book and got it published, and, um, is continuing to, yeah, sell it and talk about it all over the world, 'cause we're in Canada.

80
00:12:41.160 --> 00:12:49.660
We're international. Mm-hmm. So- Yeah, I guess that's all over the world. Yeah. We'll, we'll link it. Tom- Please... Producer Tom, make sure to link the book- Link the cycle book... in the description. Yeah. Mm-hmm.

81
00:12:50.300 --> 00:13:00.900
100%. Um, yeah, so it was, uh, that was, yeah, uh, thank you for j- I know, Daisy, you and her have been chatting, which is really sweet. I teed it up. You did. I think being a wife guy is sort of the anti-ick, so. Mm.

82
00:13:00.980 --> 00:13:10.229
Wow. Fritz, are you a wife guy? You're a fiance guy. Uh, I'm a f- [laughs] I'm a fiance guy. Yeah, I'm fian- big fiance guy. I can't wait to join the ranks, uh, of this- Yeah...

83
00:13:10.240 --> 00:13:16.380
you know, millions and billions of wife guys worldwide. It's a hell of a fraternity. Um, soon. [laughs] A hell of a fraternity. Yeah. You're gonna be great.

84
00:13:16.390 --> 00:13:24.660
You know, I, I, I was talking to Daisy about this the other day. Yeah. You don't... You hear a lot about wife guys. [laughs] You, you don't hear a lot about, uh, husband girls. Husband ladies.

85
00:13:24.920 --> 00:13:30.320
Husband l- does, husband ladies. Husband ladies. It doesn't roll off the tongue even. There's not even a word for it. Yeah. But I am one, yeah. 'Cause it's like, you know, it's 'cause women are so- Daisy is one, yeah.

86
00:13:30.520 --> 00:13:34.539
Yeah. Well, you... Women are so... You are one actually, Daisy, 'cause I saw you post about your husband. Women are so what?

87
00:13:34.580 --> 00:13:42.850
They're so, I think, burdened by all the nonsense they have to carry of their husbands, like all the, all the d- all the ugh, and the ennui, and the, the sort of like self-importance and the ego. Yeah.

88
00:13:42.860 --> 00:13:46.590
Should, should we get Laura to call in and, and, and- Yeah, 100%, we can get her to talk about it... do that?

89
00:13:46.590 --> 00:13:53.350
[laughs] Like, women are by, like, design, when women get married, they have to become husband wives, because they're, like, so- Yeah. Mm-hmm... like, they have to deal with so much bullshit and carry so much stuff.

90
00:13:53.350 --> 00:14:00.330
The wife guy is more of a radical concept. Wife guy is some... It's like wife guy is like, "Oh, like I'm a man who has, like, you know, some semblance of, like, something that's happening outside of the home."

91
00:14:00.330 --> 00:14:08.150
Like, "I've done the dishes." Yeah. Yeah. [laughs] Something like that. Like, "I'm not, I'm not the worst." Um, but I doubt, Daisy, you did post about, you are a, a wife, husband wife because you- [laughs]...

92
00:14:08.240 --> 00:14:17.160
husband lady because you did a lovely even LinkedIn post about your husband's play, which I saw the other day. Yeah, multiple LinkedIn posts about my husband's play. Yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Mm-hmm. I wanna...

93
00:14:17.200 --> 00:14:23.420
I, I would like... I would love to see that play. It actually looks like a good play about, Francis, for, for old sass boys like us. Yeah.

94
00:14:23.460 --> 00:14:35.640
Well, okay, I, um, this reminds me, when we first started working together, we bonded on both having read, um, Anna Wiener's book- Yep... Uncanny Valley. Yep. Slim memoir about- Is it Weiner or Wiener? Wiener or Weiner?

95
00:14:36.040 --> 00:14:40.850
Uh, that's a great question. I don't know. It's like- Wine and diner. Wine and diner. Dine and dasher.

96
00:14:40.980 --> 00:14:47.600
Anyways, it's a brief memoir that came out in 2020 about, like, she was working in the publishing industry in New York, and then she moved to the Bay Area.

97
00:14:47.640 --> 00:14:56.480
It's, like, two kind of, you know, anonymized startups, but I think it was, like, GitHub and somewhere else that she worked in, in customer service. And it's like- She was, like, briefly at Artsy, right? Uh, probably.

98
00:14:56.790 --> 00:15:03.360
Yeah. I think so. And was there- Oh, Ari, I remember you-... there was a company called Oyster- Oyster... that was, like, a Kindle thing. There we go I, I don't know. I know that they make...

99
00:15:03.380 --> 00:15:14.860
There's an Oyster that makes coolers. We're just making shit up. Um, but anyways- Sorry, Anna... uh, you... I remember you telling me how, like, y- you, it made you want to work in the software industry. Yeah.

100
00:15:14.960 --> 00:15:22.650
I had a similar experience. You know, that was, like, four or five years ago now. How do you- Yeah... how do you feel now that you've spent- I don't wanna do it anymore. No, I'm just kidding.

101
00:15:22.680 --> 00:15:30.700
[laughs] So wait, you read it, you read it- Yeah... about her, like, losing her soul to this- Cautionary tale, yeah, yeah... and leaving, and you were like, "That actually sounds great"? I was like, "This is great.

102
00:15:30.720 --> 00:15:38.730
I gotta do it." Yeah. Mm-hmm. Yeah, yeah. Ari's a big sellout. I'm a big sellout. I was... Well, no, I was really, um, I found myself really...

103
00:15:38.860 --> 00:15:49.780
I worked in the nonprof- I worked in the humanitarian and development space for, like, a decade and sort of journalism, and then I was thoroughly disillusioned at that point by, like, that whole space.

104
00:15:49.840 --> 00:15:58.920
And I, I really, I, I went and worked at Kum & Go, the gas station where I bought this hat- Mm-hmm... in Iowa. You came and you went. I came and went. And I feel- As did the company.

105
00:15:59.060 --> 00:16:07.270
As did the company, although they did pretty well. As did Honey Blue. [laughs] As do we all. It's, like, a great- Uh... you know, life. Uh, but yeah. Mm-hmm.

106
00:16:07.270 --> 00:16:13.840
So I, I was, like, reading that book, and I was like, "God, it's horrible." And I was like, "I really wanna try. I think I can do this." And- Mm-hmm... I have found it... I actually do.

107
00:16:14.060 --> 00:16:21.700
I, I was joking, but I, I actually weirdly find it to be, like, the most... I don't know. The... To me, it's, like, the most hon- it's the most honest, actually, out of all the spaces I've worked in, like, somehow.

108
00:16:21.840 --> 00:16:28.480
It feels, like, the most very- The most honestly dishonest. Yeah. Yeah. It's, like, very... You're just, like, trying to... You're, like, very clearly trying to do a thing, where everyone else is like...

109
00:16:28.520 --> 00:16:34.980
In the other space, you're trying to do a thing, but you're, like, framing it and all this bullshit, whether it's, like, humanitarian space or like... I remember working for the gas station chain.

110
00:16:35.000 --> 00:16:43.240
It was, like, making days better was the ethos and the credo, which is, like, lovely, but, like, we're, like, selling petrol and cigarettes. Like... [laughs] And I think- Well, in the words of F.

111
00:16:43.520 --> 00:16:55.119
Scott Fitzgerald, "There are only the coming, the going, the busy, and the tired." [laughs] Wow. Is that where they got the name? [laughs] And I would prefer to be busy. Well, no, I'd prefer to be coming, but- [laughs]

112
00:16:55.150 --> 00:17:04.540
... busy is a close second choice. Sure. Yeah, yeah. I'm with you. Um, yeah. I think that, yeah, it was, it was, like, something that felt like, uh, fun to, like, see what it would, like, you know, be like.

113
00:17:04.580 --> 00:17:07.190
And I, I actually- It's anthropological. Yeah. No, that's fair.

114
00:17:07.200 --> 00:17:17.240
Well, you, you've taken to it really well, I think, because, I mean, I, I can say having worked with you, you're one of the most kind of, like, neurotically energetic and creative people I've worked with.

115
00:17:17.320 --> 00:17:25.340
You know, you're kind of this- Thank you... you're kind of this force of nature, which I think in- This feels like a microaggression. A microaggression. W- well, it is. Um- Yeah. It's... I'll just blatantly say it.

116
00:17:25.400 --> 00:17:35.960
I'll be actively aggressive. But no, I, I say that to say, like, I feel like v- a mindset of, like, the SaaS, the VC-funded startup world generally- Yeah... from my perspective that I've seen is, like, p-

117
00:17:37.080 --> 00:17:48.390
people succeed who are, like, maniacally ambitious or, like, y- you could say, like, I don't know- Yeah... naively ambitious. Like, we're gonna do the thing, like- Yeah... the hooker by crook kind of thing. Yeah, yeah.

118
00:17:48.400 --> 00:17:50.920
Which you are... Y- you're very good at that, right? And I think...

119
00:17:50.980 --> 00:18:00.370
I mean, I observe w- with you and Shane, uh, like, it ma- it's a, it's kind of a match made in heaven, and you get money to do the thing, to do these ambitious campaigns- For how...

120
00:18:00.470 --> 00:18:10.240
because, like, you have the idea and you're like, "It's so crazy." Yeah. "I think we could pull it off." Yeah. And you do, and that's kind of like what... That's, that's how you succeed in this world. Yeah. Yeah, yeah.

121
00:18:10.390 --> 00:18:18.150
No, I think that's fair. I think that, um, I don't... I agree that there's, like, a maniacal ambition that's largely... I think it's more of a founder, like, energy thing. Mm-hmm.

122
00:18:18.480 --> 00:18:23.276
Like, and there's, like, this idea to proveFounder mode Founder. I mean, and I think, you know, I...

123
00:18:23.376 --> 00:18:33.856
You see it in, yeah, a l- I think any actually successful founder, uh, probably has some, like, level of, like, outsized ambition and ego and need to prove something, and it's how they, they do it or die trying.

124
00:18:33.896 --> 00:18:42.886
And I think there's something about that I actually do... I do respect it. I- my thing is more, like, there's, like, a hole in- inside me that I'm trying to fill endlessly by, like- It's okay. My dad- He dug it...

125
00:18:42.886 --> 00:18:50.236
didn't love me either. [laughs] Yeah. I mean, you know, that's, like, it's like I'm trying to, like, get validation. It's so... The hole is so big you had to marry a therapist. [laughs] I did, yeah.

126
00:18:50.416 --> 00:18:58.636
[laughs] Yeah, we talk about it every day. That's why he's such a wife guy. That's why I'm a wife guy, yeah. He has to get at least- [laughs] He's a therapist guy. I'm a therapist wife guy. He's a therapist wife guy.

127
00:18:58.726 --> 00:19:01.286
It's even worse. Yeah. Yeah. I think, so you're trying to like...

128
00:19:01.336 --> 00:19:11.376
I do, I do take to that environment well because I am trying to constantly prove that I can do this thing, and I think increasingly, right, like, as you age in this industry, I, I think about that a lot 'cause I'm old, I'm 40- Mm...

129
00:19:11.416 --> 00:19:15.656
and I'm doing this stuff. Yeah. And I work with a bunch of, you know, people in their 20s, and increasingly people in their early 20s.

130
00:19:16.356 --> 00:19:22.566
Um, there's, like, a sense of, like, aging in this industry that I find kind of weird and sad and poetic and haunting and, like...

131
00:19:22.566 --> 00:19:29.986
'Cause, like, you're, you really are do- Like, there's no re- Especially now with all the agentic bullshit, like, you're kinda cooked. Mm-hmm. Like, you're really... There's, like, what am I really doing?

132
00:19:30.176 --> 00:19:32.936
And so there's, like, an interesting question, like, what does 40, or the 10 years look like in this space?

133
00:19:32.976 --> 00:19:43.636
Well, I mean, someone like you though, it's like you're only, you're almost only strengthened by, like, any what- whatever AI worry because, like, y- you're a producer. Yeah. Right? Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, I'm not, like...

134
00:19:43.836 --> 00:19:48.556
I, I do worry. I would... I, I don't know how I would've... I, I do think about, like, how do people start their careers now?

135
00:19:49.626 --> 00:19:55.186
'Cause, like, all the stuff that I had done, I did, I used to do, right, is now very much an AI solution. Like, research- Mm...

136
00:19:55.196 --> 00:20:02.856
or even, like, early blog writing or any of these things are all kind of being done now, increasingly automated. Um- But that's how I started. I- Totally, yeah. Yeah, very much...

137
00:20:02.906 --> 00:20:09.176
got into the space, I was just writing, like, $20 per unique blogs- Yeah... then absolutely. So- That's how you started at... Is that... I mean, that's how you started at Air, wasn't it?

138
00:20:09.216 --> 00:20:17.016
As an intern doing writing, right? Yeah. Mm-hmm. Yeah. And I think, like, I wonder if that... I don't even know if that role, forget Air, like, in general, are there people hiring interns to do writing

139
00:20:17.996 --> 00:20:23.956
at, at tech startups? I don't know. I saw an interesting discourse on my timeline the other day.

140
00:20:24.676 --> 00:20:41.976
It was a screenshot of a headline by Naomi Kanakia, who has contributed to Dirt, and the headline was, like, "Highbrow Literature Has a Fandom Now, and Writers Need to Know How to Manage It," I think was what it was, and somebody screenshotted it and says, said, "Why does every substack sound like this?"

141
00:20:42.536 --> 00:20:53.116
And then there's all these comments of people being like, basically pretending not to understand what that headline means. And I was like, do you really not understand the headline?

142
00:20:53.876 --> 00:21:04.616
Or do you just disagree with the reality of book publishing as a marketplace? Hm. Because when y- I was like, okay, let me go. I was like, that seems pretty obvious to me.

143
00:21:05.396 --> 00:21:15.636
Like, when you have an audience or a fandom around highbrow literature, whatever you wanna call it, that's not necessarily contemporary literature.

144
00:21:15.756 --> 00:21:26.596
If you're writing contemporary highbrow literature, you need to understand how to cultivate and manage a fandom, or you will not make money. Yeah. That to me, I'm like, okay, yeah, d- water wet.

145
00:21:26.696 --> 00:21:37.796
So then I went to read it, read the full thing, and I was like, that's basically what she says. And she puts it in, like, supply and de- demand terms as well, in terms of, like,

146
00:21:39.376 --> 00:21:43.856
publishing houses buy books, and at the point they buy the book, it becomes a product.

147
00:21:43.976 --> 00:21:56.136
It's the same thing with paintings, which is why we call it the art market now instead of the art world, which is an insight that I stole from Fran Lebowitz. But Fran, put it in writing next time. I know you can't.

148
00:21:56.316 --> 00:22:06.795
So [laughs] um, publishing, like, we still call it the publishing world. We don't call it the publishing market or the book market, but that is what it is.

149
00:22:07.336 --> 00:22:20.696
And so people get really upset, and it's like you have somebody coming to you on Substack translating the economic reality, that you are claiming you dislike the semantics, but you just dislike capitalism.

150
00:22:20.786 --> 00:22:26.536
And that's okay, but if you wanna write a book and sell it and not just give it away on a street corner,

151
00:22:27.496 --> 00:22:37.316
you need to understand how to cultivate an audience in the same way that, like, every other, um, pillar of the entertainment industry does.

152
00:22:37.496 --> 00:22:47.016
And we're dealing with, like, a lot of context collapse because music and books and blog posts are all distributed on the same platforms. And so it's like

153
00:22:48.056 --> 00:22:59.096
I understand being frustrated with the reality, but I don't like the willful ignorance of attacking somebody else's semantics in writing because you can't accommodate the idea.

154
00:22:59.196 --> 00:23:04.676
Um, and I think there's, like, this, this strain right now of people who, like,

155
00:23:06.256 --> 00:23:24.096
want to just write off any of the market dynamics in the creative industries because they're uncomfortable with running a business or money, but they still wanna get paid, and I'm like, yeah, it sucks, but wouldn't you rather be educated, and wouldn't you rather have, like, a thesis on where things are going and be part of it?

156
00:23:24.756 --> 00:23:34.296
Mm. That's where I'm like what you're saying about the thing that reminded me of that, like, like, software, SaaS, whatever you wanna call it, is in a way more honest. Yeah.

157
00:23:34.456 --> 00:23:42.956
Um, because you're operating from the starting point of serving a marketplace. And I think in publishing, it's like your...

158
00:23:43.136 --> 00:23:50.816
You should always come out of, come out of it and come to it from the perspective of creating and disseminating art.

159
00:23:51.456 --> 00:24:04.676
But you need to recognize the point at which that art becomes a product and be able to run your mind on two parallel tracks that can accommodate the book to the extent that it's art and the book to the extent that it's product.

160
00:24:05.126 --> 00:24:14.996
And if you can't, the least that you can do is not sit on Twitter and attack other people who can do that. Um, you know, then it's like shut the fuck up time.

161
00:24:15.236 --> 00:24:36.664
I'm reminded of your, of your tweet, uh, a few weeks ago about the person who was, like, uh, appalled that somebody reached out to advertise in their newsletter, and you were like, "If this was me, I would have taken that money and routed it to some-Used it to hire some reporter or writer or whatever Literally could have run an essay competition on vibes, and s- they're gonna, like, give that money to somebody else.

162
00:24:36.704 --> 00:24:48.324
It's- Are, are people- Yeah... really upset about, like, selling out now? Like, people are still... There's, like, this... Who's got, like, the- We've come back around to the '90s. Yeah, it feels very '90s.

163
00:24:48.344 --> 00:24:53.524
It feels like... I thought, I thought sellout was em- culture was embraced now. I thought it was, like, a bad word or whatever. Well, it's like the...

164
00:24:53.584 --> 00:25:02.894
I mean, it's, like, the same thing as, like, third wave gentrifiers, right? People are upset that there's, like- Mm... a Chanel store on- In Williamsburg... Bedford Avenue now. Yeah.

165
00:25:02.964 --> 00:25:12.454
But there was, like, people were upset when there was, like, a Catbird and a Brooklyn Fox. But because they live- That was me. I was upset. I was, it was already- Yeah. Right. So you're like, that was already- Yeah...

166
00:25:12.464 --> 00:25:21.004
like, second wave gentrification. Yeah, yeah. So I think that the layers of sellout critique actually correspond pretty well to, like, layers of, like, gentrifier critique. Yeah.

167
00:25:21.104 --> 00:25:35.284
Um, where people are like, selling out is basically compulsory, but people have decided to create, like, a new hierarchy within it. I mean, there was a point at which selling out meant selling your book at all. Yeah.

168
00:25:35.544 --> 00:25:46.344
Um, I think the only people who get really dinged on it now are people who've built a brand around criticizing other people for doing that or not doing that and then doing it themselves.

169
00:25:47.264 --> 00:26:02.444
I don't know, having been married to someone who published a book at a major publishing house and seeing how hard it is to sell books, how excruciatingly hard it is to get people to give a shit about your book, I can say that it, it's a pretty privileged place to be like, "You don't need to give a fuck about the sale, man."

170
00:26:02.484 --> 00:26:14.074
Like, dude, it's, it's hard. Like, it's, it's really hard. There's a lot of shit out there now, and I don't know, activating people around something is really tough. Getting people to like a post is tough, right? Mm.

171
00:26:14.084 --> 00:26:18.284
Getting people to listen to a podcast is tough. Getting people to do fucking anything- No, I see... is hard. Or subscribe. Like,

172
00:26:19.204 --> 00:26:29.374
from the perspective of, like, making money or selling something to somebody, like, and most people, if you came to them tomorrow and were like, "You need to make $1,000 in the next 24 hours,"

173
00:26:30.584 --> 00:26:40.044
would run around with a chicken, like, like a chicken with their head cut off. Yeah. And I've, like, literally had to do that before, and I've done it. It wasn't fun.

174
00:26:40.944 --> 00:26:52.484
[lips smack] It's almost harder to do that than it is to make $10,000 or five to $10,000. Mm. But that's essentially what you're asking people to do when you say, "Go out and sell your book." Yeah.

175
00:26:52.524 --> 00:27:00.944
And, like, if you're sitting in your house and you have a great book idea and you think it's the next great American novel, picture what it would take to sell that to 100 people.

176
00:27:01.064 --> 00:27:09.524
Picture what it would take to even sell that to 10 people. Yeah. And then you have a better idea of the reality, which is not really, like,

177
00:27:10.804 --> 00:27:24.804
the Substacks, the availability bias of the Substacks you see where they do really catch fire, um, and c- get a lot of people paying for it. Like, that's just not gonna be the reality for most people. Um- Yeah...

178
00:27:24.864 --> 00:27:27.944
so I mean, I have, like, a lot of respect for small business owners.

179
00:27:28.004 --> 00:27:43.534
I think, like, whatever you're selling, I mean, drop shippers, fuck you guys, but, like, you found a way to get people to buy plastic shit, and to that, for that, I salute you because most of us can't even get people to buy [lips smack]

180
00:27:43.534 --> 00:27:55.864
essays. [chuckles] Well, th- this is reminding me of, like, this cottage industry of people using AI to generate children's books that they then sell on Amazon. I saw this tweet earlier that was like- Ooh...

181
00:27:55.874 --> 00:28:00.314
uh, don't give your child, like, money for Christmas or something like that.

182
00:28:00.544 --> 00:28:11.064
Instead, you know, invest this much money in setting up a children's book on Amazon that'll ge- then generate you $2,000 in passive income, uh, for, you know, years of their life.

183
00:28:11.764 --> 00:28:21.164
Um, I, I did wanna ask about- Wait, can I say one more thing? Okay. Yeah. Sorry. I've been talking for a while. But, like, this is my ultimate black pill. This should be a black pill for anyone.

184
00:28:21.384 --> 00:28:27.444
It's almost too depressing to say. So if I personally, like Daisy Aleo though, want to go out and

185
00:28:28.384 --> 00:28:43.524
write an essay right now for a mainstream publication or, like, a reported piece, I could probably get about $2,000 for it, and it'll take me a few hours to write. If I wanted to make $2,000 off of Dirt,

186
00:28:44.564 --> 00:28:58.724
I would have to sell 400 monthly $5 subscriptions. So my money, like, it's easier for me to create value

187
00:28:59.664 --> 00:29:14.244
on a few hours of my time right now writing an essay than it is to monetize a brand that I've build, been building for the past, like, three or four years by getting 400 people to buy a monthly subscription.

188
00:29:14.364 --> 00:29:19.654
Yeah, but there are other ways you can get... You could also be like- 100%... I'm gonna throw the- I could also sell a single ad. Totally.

189
00:29:19.704 --> 00:29:26.414
I'm just saying, like, when people say to people starting a Substack, "Oh, just sell subscriptions"- Yeah...

190
00:29:26.414 --> 00:29:41.194
they're not taking into account that, like, my writing in the beginning, and at a certain point they bypass each other, but in the beginning, your money and labor and employment is worth more on the open marketplace than anything that you could possibly build- Yeah...

191
00:29:41.224 --> 00:29:43.804
maybe even for the first 10 years that you're building it. Yeah.

192
00:29:44.084 --> 00:30:02.484
Because the job that I quit to raise investment for Dirt was paying me $130,000 a year, but it would take me years for Dirt to make $130,000 a year in net revenue, despite all the value that I've created, all the writing that I've published, this whole world that I've built.

193
00:30:02.564 --> 00:30:14.464
At the end of the day, I could make more money working in B2B SaaS as an employee, literally doing nothing, doing, like, bullshit job, David Graeber stuff. And so

194
00:30:15.624 --> 00:30:28.748
there's, like, that is a black pill in and of itself, right? Yeah. But your, to your point, the sort of universe that you've built and the, all the kind of constellations around that that are I think probably...

195
00:30:28.848 --> 00:30:35.928
revenue generating are probably longer term, gonna be more interesting for you as you build this business out, right? Like, clearly, like you, you also own a thing.

196
00:30:36.228 --> 00:30:44.008
Your black pill, you're saying, is that it should be as easy to start a small business and make a good living from it as it is to be an employee.

197
00:30:44.048 --> 00:30:49.688
They might have- No, I don't think it should be easy necessarily, but I'm saying like, um,

198
00:30:50.868 --> 00:31:01.617
part of the reason most people don't do it is because for a very long time, your time, effort, no matter what you create, is not worth as much as your ass- Mm-hmm...

199
00:31:01.648 --> 00:31:06.248
in front of a computer in an office in Midtown, and maybe never will be.

200
00:31:06.328 --> 00:31:24.198
Um, so it really like challenges your idea of what value means and what it means to create value, even in like the way that Startup Hill people talk about creating value on Twitter because they all got like radicalized by that Australian startup TikTok and the product managers in the pool.

201
00:31:24.208 --> 00:31:30.868
Gen Z Pass. Mini. Mm-hmm. Yeah. What's Australian? What's the Australian startup? No, it's the Gen Z- You know, the like-... Boss in a Mini. Gen Z Boss in a Mini. Oh. Gen Z Boss in a Mini. Oh. Yeah.

202
00:31:31.238 --> 00:31:40.768
And those girls who were product managers who were working from the pool, but the fact of the matter is even if those girls quit their job and made a small business tomorrow, they would not be able to replace their salary.

203
00:31:41.248 --> 00:31:55.528
Um, so you can get mad at individuals, but you can't get mad at the system, which is really like [laughs] designed to keep people in employment for healthcare and, um, like a living. Well, that's why I moved to Canada.

204
00:31:55.968 --> 00:32:04.628
I'm gonna move to Canada. When did you move? When did, when did you move again? Two years ago. Two years ago. That's crazy. Yeah. Uh- Wait, to be clear, does your wife have Canadian citizenship- No... or you? I do.

205
00:32:04.708 --> 00:32:14.068
I was born here. Okay. I was born here. So- But I, but I left when I was, uh, like six. I, I di- I never lived here really. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Um, but I have, I have a passport, so I got, we all- Give us the...

206
00:32:14.088 --> 00:32:24.808
We, we had a Vancouverite on a couple weeks ago. Oh, yeah? Give us the, uh, Toronto scene report. Toronto is- Toronto, excuse me. I, I don't know. The R-O-N-T-O. I'm pronouncing it wrong. Are you saying- It's Toronto.

207
00:32:24.848 --> 00:32:34.448
Sorry. What are you saying? Tor- Toronto. T-O-R- Toronto? N-N-O, right? Toronto is- Oh. Toronto. I think Toronto is... I'm, my wife and I are huge Toronto fans, and we love it. Okay. And I think it's- Go Leafs...

208
00:32:34.508 --> 00:32:46.608
a really exceptional city that has, I mean, look, marred by really bad public transport and infrastructure issues, but- Mm... is, is I think, I would argue, is maybe the best sit- food city in the world. Um- Whoa...

209
00:32:46.688 --> 00:32:56.128
unexpected, but- I don't know... you have, you ha- it's the most international city I've ever lived in. You have pocket... And I'm talking about the greater Toronto area. More than New York? Yeah, I think so. Yeah, yeah.

210
00:32:56.288 --> 00:33:05.448
Well, you know, you know, we also aren't like banning like citizens from like 37 countries from coming here, so- We're not banning citizens period... Or yeah, I mean, or just banning every- Just citizens.

211
00:33:05.458 --> 00:33:18.527
So I think there's like a feeling of, it's no utopia, but, uh, you know, we have like, you know, we have a great, we have a really quite progressive, uh, mayor and, uh, I think a city that values like...

212
00:33:19.368 --> 00:33:21.497
I don't know, it's a great city to have kids in. We live on a lake- Yeah...

213
00:33:21.608 --> 00:33:32.168
you can swim in, and it's not like a garbage town, and, uh, there's markedly less violence than living in the US, and I don't worry about my children being able to access birth control.

214
00:33:32.208 --> 00:33:41.997
So for me, it's a, it's a win, and, uh, I don't think... Again, it's not perfect, but I think, yeah, we, we feel quite lucky that we can live here, uh, and that we can- Yeah.

215
00:33:42.008 --> 00:33:49.967
Do you miss anything about Iowa, where you were before? I love Iowa. I love Iowa. I gotta get my hat. Where's the hat? Put the hat back on. [laughs] The hat. I put the hat back on, goddammit, for Iowa.

216
00:33:50.028 --> 00:33:55.738
Oh, I didn't realize you were actually living in Iowa. Oh, yeah. I thought you were living in New York and working for- I was. I went to NYU. That was the impression I tried to give.

217
00:33:55.738 --> 00:34:06.488
I, I lived in New York for a long time. [laughs] Is that the impression I tried to give? I am fucking, I, my bro- I hate New York is my thing. Mm-hmm. That's my- Hmm. Milton Glazer, eat your heart out. [laughs] Hate it.

218
00:34:06.578 --> 00:34:14.838
[laughs] Like, don't like it, don't wanna live there. Lived there for a long time. I don't hate it, but I, my brother lives there, my friends are there, but I, uh- I live there... I met my wife. You live there?

219
00:34:14.848 --> 00:34:23.208
He's, he's on the front lines- No... gentrifying Williamsburg. He, he's... [laughs] Yeah, I just don't, uh, I find it, um... Yeah, it's not for me. He bought the first cortado in Williamsburg.

220
00:34:23.518 --> 00:34:30.178
[laughs] Who, me or my brother? Me? You. [laughs] I did buy the first... I was used to go to Marlow & Sons and buy cortados. Which just closed. I know. End of an era, man. Yeah.

221
00:34:30.188 --> 00:34:40.288
Now it's- Who threw the first brick at Cha Cha Matcha? [laughs] My brother used to work at Cha Cha Matcha. Um- That's... Okay, so that was a shot in the dark. I actually didn't know that. Yeah, yeah, true. Anyway, I...

222
00:34:40.328 --> 00:34:49.108
No, I, I don't hate New York. I shouldn't say that 'cause I, because we also are a New York-based company, and I, we, I'm there constantly now. Well, it's no utopia. Mm-hmm. [laughs] Well, what is? Uh, I just...

223
00:34:49.148 --> 00:34:58.648
I don't know. I mean, look, Mamdani, lotta, lotta wind in the old sails. Mm-hmm. Don't tell the tech bros, but I think that's exciting. Yeah. Zoran's New York, baby. Zoran's New York, man.

224
00:34:58.688 --> 00:35:06.288
Things- It's the Mamdanissance... things can shift. Mam- [laughs] the Mamdanissance, I like that. That's, it's, uh, that's pretty... I mean, that's quite exciting to see that things are possible. Mm-hmm.

225
00:35:06.388 --> 00:35:13.108
Um, so- Well, I mean, the, the city's gonna crumble now because everyone's, uh, you know, everyone's gonna move to Palm Springs now. Well, I can't go there now 'cause I'm Jewish- Yeah...

226
00:35:13.128 --> 00:35:19.198
and of course I can't be in Mamdani's New York 'cause of the- Yeah, they're actually putting up a little, a wall... the pogroms that are coming and the, the camps they're gonna build now for the Jews. Oh.

227
00:35:19.228 --> 00:35:28.238
But, uh, yeah, no, it's, um... I thought that. I was in New York when he got ele- or not elected, but when he was, uh, won the primary. That was really- A month ago... really exciting. Really cool to see.

228
00:35:28.238 --> 00:35:38.468
I think the actual ranked choice vote counts today. Should come out today. I'm excited to see that. You know- Yeah... Ridgewood went plus 69 for- 66. Yeah, it was crazy, Ridgewood... Commie Corridor. Yeah.

229
00:35:38.618 --> 00:35:46.408
The Co- the Commie Corridor is amazing. It's amazing. It's great. Well- It's like... I don't know. I just, I love it... I'm also Jewish, and in between stealing tables, I voted. You're Jewish?

230
00:35:46.478 --> 00:35:53.918
Zoran was always quite nice to me. You knew that. Did I know you were Jewish? Mm-hmm. We've had this conversation. I'm Italian- You're Jewish and Italian... and Jewish. Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah. That's right.

231
00:35:53.948 --> 00:36:03.298
We have had that conversation. You are what my, you are what my children- Yeah, that's why I'm so dangerous... what, what my children will be one day is Jew- [laughs]... Italian Jews. Yeah. Um, worst of both worlds.

232
00:36:03.368 --> 00:36:15.707
No, I'm just kidding. Uh- No, it's- It's the best... it's very much the case. Ask my husband, Guy. The- Your husband [laughs] My wife. Ask my wife, Guy. [laughs] Ask, ask the wife, Guy, what he thinks. Um, yeah.

233
00:36:15.748 --> 00:36:23.468
Yeah, yeah, yeah. Uh, but I like Toronto. I, I re- it's also Canadians have such an insecurity and inferiority complex a- about themselves in general- Mm... but especially in Toronto to New York.

234
00:36:23.568 --> 00:36:30.018
And, like, all my friends in Toronto, and I, I do extoll the virtues- Can't be worse than the San Franciscans, though. I don't know, man. People here are really down on themselves.

235
00:36:30.088 --> 00:36:40.416
I mean, the reality is, this country, like, you can't really make money in it, and so that keeps everyone at a certain level ofEither like down, but also like everyone wants to move to the States.

236
00:36:40.576 --> 00:36:47.156
I mean, they're like dying to move to the States. Mm-hmm. Anyone who has like an idea wants to go to the States to make, to make it. But it's like buying a lottery ticket though. Moving to the States? The American dream.

237
00:36:47.216 --> 00:36:51.536
Yeah. The American dream. But it's still, it's very much alive and well in Toronto. I would say like all these smart kids who are...

238
00:36:51.616 --> 00:36:59.496
We work with, uh, we have inter- like interns and stuff are like very, and they're like really, really intelligent, ambitious, uh, young people are like New York 100% or San Francisco.

239
00:36:59.536 --> 00:37:05.196
What amount of money would they be happy with? And- They-... do they wanna pay it out in rent? [chuckles] That's a good question. I don't know.

240
00:37:05.356 --> 00:37:14.736
There's just a sense that you can go and make hundreds of thousands of dollars a year, um, you know, many times over and that in Canada- Mm... it's really, there aren't really many opportunities to get mega rich here.

241
00:37:14.996 --> 00:37:25.656
You really can't get like supremely wealthy in Canada- Yeah... my, my way I understand it. Um, unless- Um... you inherit money. Yeah. Uh, I, I keep wanting to bring, I'm just gonna bring up now the, the Cluley thing.

242
00:37:25.696 --> 00:37:33.356
You posted about this on LinkedIn. Uh, it was like the day we were gonna, we were gonna- Yeah... to the listener, we were gonna have Ari on a couple weeks ago. There was some technical difficulties on my side.

243
00:37:33.396 --> 00:37:39.506
Um, uh, but, uh, you had just posted about the Cluley video, which had just come out. Yeah. It's like this insane, like, uh, when you said like- I love it...

244
00:37:39.536 --> 00:37:48.236
opportunities to get rich, I'm thinking of it 'cause it's like 30 19-year-olds. Yeah. I'm, you know, generalizing a little bit there. No, no, you're quite right though. Uh, it's just like pure distribution. Yeah.

245
00:37:48.356 --> 00:38:00.896
Um, pure like, like it... I don't know, it seems like such a pure expression of like VC-funded startupdom. Yeah. It's like pure nihilism. I think it's fantastic. I really like it. I'm into it. I support it.

246
00:38:01.016 --> 00:38:08.876
I, I wanna be more involved in it. I met some of the people who work there. I, I like got on calls with them 'cause I wanted to- Oh... understand how they think about it. Um, I mean, I think- Tell us more about that...

247
00:38:08.976 --> 00:38:11.756
I think it's... I mean, listen, I think the product, I think every, the pro...

248
00:38:11.856 --> 00:38:18.626
I mean, I s- the problem with like criticizing AI tech is that you sound like a boomer and like a decel, and like everyone dismisses you for that. And they're like, "Well, of course he would say that.

249
00:38:18.656 --> 00:38:20.156
He's 40 and like a loser."

250
00:38:20.176 --> 00:38:34.116
But like, I think every AI product which is like designed to make you not think is fucked, and like a tool for only like turning you into a soft-brained like, like bootlicking fucking f- victim of like whatever fascist nightmare we get.

251
00:38:34.146 --> 00:38:41.676
And like we deserve whatever we get if this is the fucking... Like Cluley's literal memo is like, "Never think again." Like never- Never think, shit on everything. N- yeah. And they say...

252
00:38:41.716 --> 00:38:52.365
And I think that that's like a really fascinating like marker of like whatever Gen Z nihilism is. Well, I think this is part of A16Z's accelerationism. Mm. Yeah. Anyway.

253
00:38:52.416 --> 00:39:09.836
That they deci- like every couple of years they just appoint a random representative of complete accelerationism, nihilism, whatever you wanna call it. Yeah. Economic, intellectual, and political breakdown.

254
00:39:10.356 --> 00:39:19.776
Yeah. Just because they have the money and they can. But my question is like is that gonna work? Is that what the people want?

255
00:39:19.916 --> 00:39:28.276
Because I personally think the tech right made a huge mistake in wedding themselves to the Trump administration- Mm... in hopes of getting some of the stuff they want. Well, there was just that thing today.

256
00:39:28.396 --> 00:39:37.076
The beau- big beautiful bill or whatever. They voted 99 to 1 to take out the clause saying that states couldn't regulate AI for the next 10 years. Mm-hmm. Mm.

257
00:39:37.436 --> 00:39:57.076
Well, the tech right got in bed with the Trump administration thinking it would allow them to enact more of the agenda, but if they're wrong, um, the majority of the American public has already turned against Silicon Valley, and their kind of big hope for power w- is, um,

258
00:39:57.996 --> 00:40:09.186
now in AI. Like, if they cannot have successful political power and the pendulum swings back to more socialist ideas like Zoran's- Yeah... ideas because- Yeah...

259
00:40:09.216 --> 00:40:21.256
people are like, "Wow, like first administration felt like populism. This felt like populism plus Elon Musk and all these like weird, creepy people like Peter Thiel." Does this one even feel like populism though?

260
00:40:21.396 --> 00:40:29.656
I feel like- Yeah... that facade has, has quickly fallen, though I'm honestly like They, they have no... Silicon Valley has squandered all soft power. People don't think founders are cool anymore.

261
00:40:29.696 --> 00:40:32.556
They don't think Jeff Bezos is cool. They don't think Mark Zuckerberg's cool.

262
00:40:32.616 --> 00:40:46.716
They think being rich is cool, but if you align yourself with an administration that will actually inhibit the economy and people don't get rich, your only hope for like hard power, not even soft power, is to just destroy

263
00:40:48.096 --> 00:40:57.886
any agency that American public has by infiltrating AI into everything, and they've put all of their eggs into that basket. I think it'll work. Because if these AI companies don't succeed, there's no like...

264
00:40:58.606 --> 00:41:06.396
A- all the venture dollars in the US are gonna get washed out. Ari said do you think it'll work? Yeah. I think it, I think it's working. I think it's happening. I think I look at- Too big to fail...

265
00:41:06.436 --> 00:41:15.316
my, uh, my, my, uh, dad and his wife keep sharing these AI, and I don't know if they even know they're AI, that it's AI, these AI videos about like [chuckles]

266
00:41:16.396 --> 00:41:28.056
like insane, like, like insane AI shit about, uh, Iran and, uh- Okay... Netanyahu and Greta Thunberg and stuff like that. And I think that

267
00:41:28.996 --> 00:41:38.416
for them, like already I think Instagram and the algorithm were all kind of like, uh, supplanting critical thought, but I think AI is gonna be the nail in the coffin for a great many people.

268
00:41:38.516 --> 00:41:48.666
Uh, and I think we're, we have- Well, then we're gonna have to have UBI for all these people- Mm... who like literally can't read to live off of- Yeah, I don't know... 'cause nobody's gonna have a job. Yeah.

269
00:41:48.666 --> 00:41:53.976
And that, that I don't know if there'll be some sense. I don't know what that'll be. But that'll, uh, yeah, I think they'll, I think they'll succeed, don't you? They're pretty scary.

270
00:41:54.036 --> 00:42:00.856
I mean, the, the primary criticism of Democrats for so long was like the welfare state, you're creating people that don't work. Yeah. You're creating people reliant on the government.

271
00:42:01.616 --> 00:42:10.756
Well, what happens when AI replaces everyone's job? They're creating essentially a caste system of people with critical thinking and without critical thinking. Yeah, I don't know. That's bad news.

272
00:42:10.876 --> 00:42:18.416
But I do like Cluley's marketing, and I think they're doing a great job unironically At the end of the day, we just want these little kids to succeed and- You know, you know what's gonna happen?

273
00:42:18.496 --> 00:42:25.076
The, the Cluley marketing team, um, some tech right candidate is gonna hire them to try to replicate- Totally. 100%... Zoran on social media. They, they should.

274
00:42:25.296 --> 00:42:31.366
Well, I mean, in a way, what Cluley's doing is just like what the Tru- what the Trump campaign did, actually. I mean, it's not- Yeah.

275
00:42:31.396 --> 00:42:42.372
It is like, it's like slightly less memetic warfare and more into like UGC with like-Like literally like endless kids pumping shit with like really high-gloss fucking production. Mm-hmm.

276
00:42:42.381 --> 00:42:51.622
Um, but like it's kind of the same thing really, and like unapologetic founder. He's doing like a Trump, Trump, Elon Musk thing anyway, right? Like no publicity is good, bad, and like- Yeah...

277
00:42:51.632 --> 00:42:57.752
it's all dick jokes and like strippers and whatever, and it's like kind of the same shit. I don't know. It's basically the Trump playbook for getting elected.

278
00:42:58.372 --> 00:43:06.582
Okay, but let's talk, let's talk about another dumbing down as it were. Um, so your LinkedIn posts usually do pretty good. I found one- [coughs]... a month or so ago that didn't do as well. Thank you for that.

279
00:43:06.682 --> 00:43:11.921
That was- It happens... of, it was, it was you repo- It was you. You'd like downloaded a video from some, some influencer's account and re-uploaded it.

280
00:43:11.992 --> 00:43:19.202
Um, and it was all the like the silly little things you could do at Figma's config conference. Uh, and you were like- Oh, yeah... hot take It didn't do... I don't like to be negative. This stuff is actually dumb.

281
00:43:19.212 --> 00:43:24.212
You know, I don't like to be negative on LinkedIn, but sometimes I, I am, and that was a ne- I was negative because I do.

282
00:43:24.292 --> 00:43:31.702
That shit, when they do like the ba- I hate, don't you hate when they do, they treat you like a baby at stuff, when they're like there's the teddy bear station, like the Build-A-Bears. They're like- Yeah...

283
00:43:31.702 --> 00:43:37.372
"What are we doing here, folks?" We're like, presumably you're in your 20s. Like- Well, okay, I don't, I think you were here for this. Yeah.

284
00:43:37.421 --> 00:43:46.072
Uh, this must be what you were, um, referencing that you were here for last week. Air just threw an event where they trayp- you guys tray passed cigarettes. We did. It was like the opposite of that. Yeah.

285
00:43:46.132 --> 00:43:53.732
We gave out cigs, baby. Cigs are back. Okay. Did anybody smoke them, and could you smoke them inside? A lot of people smoked them, and you could not smoke them inside. That's a, that's a pity.

286
00:43:53.912 --> 00:44:00.912
You know- Yeah, it is a pity... uh, I was reminiscing, Daisy. I was just in Berlin, and I was reminded, I was looking at my phone, uh, we,

287
00:44:02.052 --> 00:44:08.952
we workshop- a- as we were workshopping the logo for this podcast, I was smoking cigs inside- Ugh... at a bar in Berlin. Ugh. It was great. Ugh.

288
00:44:09.012 --> 00:44:18.482
Um, so I think there should be more, I think [laughs] we should relegalize smoking indoors. [laughs] Um, why, yeah, why, why cigs? Why, why, why did you guys, why were you pressing on cigs?

289
00:44:18.502 --> 00:44:27.362
I, I think we just thought it was funny that bad- Bad air... we said bad air was funny. I like bad air and good air. Okay. And so I thought, and, and I think cigs are back- I liked it... in New York.

290
00:44:27.812 --> 00:44:37.502
Uh, whenever I come back to New York, everyone's smoking again, which is I think is actually great or a recession indicator. But regardless- Are, were you smoking? I did not smoke a cig last time.

291
00:44:37.892 --> 00:44:48.912
You can wink if you, if you just [laughs] No, I didn't. [laughs] I have had a cig- I'll think about it... on occasion, though. I will, I will smoke a cigarette and- Mm-hmm... enjoy it a lot.

292
00:44:48.952 --> 00:44:58.872
[laughs] So- You can enjoy it. I will. I'll allow myself that. Yeah, we did it in business. Ari, what is... It, it's, it's notable to me that your name is one letter off from the company that you work for. Yeah.

293
00:44:58.932 --> 00:45:07.222
[laughs] That's right. Who, who is- Yeah, people think he's the founder... who is Ari and who is Air? Ugh, God, you know, if I had a nickel... Well, the- [laughs]...

294
00:45:07.252 --> 00:45:16.402
the great story, Daisy, is that my name isn't even Ari. Uh, it's Ariel. I don't even go by Ari. I knew that from talking to your wife. Yeah. And she refers to you as Ariel.

295
00:45:16.402 --> 00:45:22.192
And all my friends and family are like, "Why are you, why are you going by Ari?" It's his, it's his SaaS persona. It's my SaaS persona.

296
00:45:22.292 --> 00:45:30.132
I just, when I interviewed at the company, I thought it'd be, I thought, I was like, "Oh, my na- what's the email?" And they're like, "It's air.inc." And I was like, "Oh, it'd be funny if it was Ari @ air.inc."

297
00:45:30.512 --> 00:45:35.872
Um- But that's his email now. And it is. You can email his- It is. Right, you can email it. It's- Every time you email me, I'm like, "That's good. That's a good joke." I know. That's good.

298
00:45:35.992 --> 00:45:45.912
I know, and that's how I feel too. It's a good fit. So I'm like, "It's great." I, I did it for that reason. Not as sexy as daisy@dir.fyi, but it's up there. Daisy@dir.fyi is much sexier than ari@air.inc. Yeah.

299
00:45:46.012 --> 00:45:56.352
But I, I enjoy it, and, uh, I, I have like gone by Ari on occasion the best, but Ariel is, is my actual name. And, uh, yeah, so I, I don't know. That's the, the where does Ari, that's where...

300
00:45:56.432 --> 00:46:04.942
But I have been working here for a long time. Almost, it's almost been four years, uh, at air.inc, which is fucking lifetime- That is some time... in, in tech, and it's been a real ride.

301
00:46:04.992 --> 00:46:13.592
So- I don't think I've stayed anywhere four years. I, this is the longest I've, this is the longest I've worked anywhere, uh, in my life. So it's, it's crazy- Um-... 'cause I- Wait... it's a pretty flighty industry.

302
00:46:13.992 --> 00:46:23.622
Yeah. I wa- so when, when we- Lot of homey hoppers in SaaS. [laughs] Homey hoppers. Lot of homey hoppers. Uh, you've had both, you're like the head of content at Air now. Yeah.

303
00:46:23.632 --> 00:46:31.352
Previously, you've been the head of comms or similar title. Yeah. Is there any substantive difference between those? I feel like maybe there used to be, but maybe there isn't anymore.

304
00:46:31.372 --> 00:46:38.802
What's, what is content versus comms? Yeah. There's not really. I mean, I think that con-co- I was director of comms, I guess, and this- Excuse me...

305
00:46:38.812 --> 00:46:46.852
sort of like folded in now into all the things we- At Come and Go or at the Red Cross? At Come and Go and here. No, at, at the Red Cross I was the head. But when you joined Air, yeah, you were comms. I forgot about that.

306
00:46:46.862 --> 00:46:54.121
I was comms. And I, I think actually the more substantive difference is the person we hired to be our head of marketing, who you met at the Webbys as well, who's- Yeah... this guy Jess- This guy...

307
00:46:54.142 --> 00:47:01.432
who came from, a really nice guy and a really intelligent, uh- He's at Duolingo and Figma, right? Yeah. And he's just like, you know, we're obviously very different.

308
00:47:02.232 --> 00:47:12.392
We, what we, what we do is very different, and he is a real marketer in the sense of like understanding how marketing [laughs] works, which is like not something I really can do from a- Yeah... in any meaningful way.

309
00:47:12.472 --> 00:47:22.862
Like, I can try to think of like a clever way to fold in a porn star to a, a video, but, but he can like figure out how to like bring people along that journey of figuring out how to bring them into the Air ecosystem.

310
00:47:22.862 --> 00:47:30.892
Distribute it. Yeah. And that is- Well, you got like risk and bets. Yeah. And I think we actually, it's nice to work with, with a marketing person now, like a lead marketing head who can like...

311
00:47:31.192 --> 00:47:38.332
I, I think we work, it's nice to have that, that role here. Like comms I feel like is like what is c- yeah, do you want like, what, a fucking writer to press release that no one reads or like a blog post no one looks at?

312
00:47:38.362 --> 00:47:44.952
So I think like, yeah, like with, with Beehive, like Tyler, our comms is like Tyler writing his newsletter to 100,000 people- Yeah...

313
00:47:44.992 --> 00:47:55.732
every week and like talking about how this company, it, we acquired TypeDream like a, a year ago, and that was his- Mm-hmm... that was his newsletter today, is like the story behind the acquisiti- acquisition, whatever.

314
00:47:55.852 --> 00:48:05.292
Yeah. Um, and it's like he doesn't need- Yeah... a comms person because he just knows how to write and is opinionated. Well, he's like a great example of like a founder who's like,

315
00:48:06.692 --> 00:48:11.572
I mean, not dissimilar from Roy at- From the-... Gluli. Like it's like- The Gluli guys, yeah. Yeah. There's just- It's just a different medium...

316
00:48:11.582 --> 00:48:20.412
like become the story, lead, be the story, do real founder led in a way that's people actually give a shit and wanna follow you and be like a little dangerous. Notice this works better for men than women. Yeah, I agree.

317
00:48:20.452 --> 00:48:27.532
This is a good point. You're absolutely right. You're absolutely right 'cause these men are all unapologetically fucking assholes, and they like own it, and that's like part of the vibe.

318
00:48:28.132 --> 00:48:35.912
And when women do that- Hear that, Tyler? [laughs] They get [laughs]... Well, when women do that, they just get fucking, they get usually like shit on. No, you get girl bossed. Yeah. Yeah.

319
00:48:36.352 --> 00:48:43.702
It was like, it was like that post you did like on Tristan a couple weeks ago when, uh, Emily Sundberg and Rachel Cardin were at Apple, and they were like- Oh, yeah... Puck was like, "Oh."

320
00:48:43.702 --> 00:48:52.192
And Puck was like demeaning them. Yeah. [laughs] I was like- Well, yeah, it was, I think it was like a little too focused on age cohort. Yeah.

321
00:48:52.552 --> 00:49:02.592
At the same time, like Tina Brown wrote the only good thing about the Bezos wedding, and she's still cooking. Mm-hmm. So there have definitely been...

322
00:49:02.712 --> 00:49:15.542
I mean, also, like who is it, Mina just raised like a ton of money for her, uh, AI startup. Which one? Uh, beats me, which is I'm partly to blame. Mira. It's Mira Murati. She- Oh, yeah, from Open- yeah...

323
00:49:15.592 --> 00:49:21.102
just raised a monster round for it. Well, the AI people can do whatever they want. Like, I don't think it matters anymore. Yeah, people can do whatever they want. Yeah.

324
00:49:21.112 --> 00:49:34.402
But I would say in terms of startup founders, especially as it pertains to women in media, it's rough out there. Yeah, I can see that. Mm-hmm. I can see that, but you're carrying the flag, Daisy. I'm trying. All right.

325
00:49:34.432 --> 00:49:43.682
I think that's a good place to end it. [laughs] Yeah. All right. This has been Tasteland. Thank you for coming on, Ari. Hey, thanks for having me. We'll do it again sometime. All right. Well, appreciate you guys. Cheers.

326
00:49:43.692 --> 00:49:54.292
Bye. Nice to see you. [outro music]