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[rock music] Mmm, honey. It tastes just like it costs At the end of the day, Tasteland is a podcast about the mortifying ordeal of being known. A big... Yeah, yeah.

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[laughs] And let me tell you, it is mortifying. Mm-hmm. Um, well, speaking of the mortifying ordeal of being known, you and I got in a little bit of a fight last week after the episode ended. Oh, we...

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W- about the audio? No, it wasn't a fight. [laughs] It was a disagreement. So Francis says that when I, when I wanna ask a question that he wrote down in the notes- Mm-hmm...

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I always credit him for the question, and he was saying, "You don't have to credit me as coming up with the question." Yeah. But, I mean, we should ask Elise about this. That is a good que-... Yeah.

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Part of why I do that is because I feel like part of your intellectual property in journalism is the quality of your research and the quality of the questions that you come up with. Yeah.

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And I feel like it's ethical for me to credit you with a question that you come up with, because I think of it as your, basically your property- Mm-hmm... like the same as your writing. Mm.

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Um, but you're, you were trying to say this is a collaboration, this is a collaborative effort, we're in this together so you don't have to do that, and I thought that was a very interesting perspective.

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My whole thing there is, like, the experience for the guest and for the listener, right?

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Where it's like I am sacrificing my, you know, intellectual property at the altar of the guest and listener experience to try to make it a more seamless thing where, you know, they're like... Right?

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Like, to me, that makes sense, though I respect, I respect your respect for the journalistic integrity of the intellectual property of question, of research, um, of research and question formulation. Thank you.

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Well, do you think... I mean, we should ask our listeners. We should. Can you guys tell us if it's bad for the listener experience- Mm-hmm... when I said, "Francis wants to ask," before asking a question? Yeah.

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Listener, um, mail in to tastelandpod@gmail.com with your answers. Should we do a mail bag? Should we do a mail bag episode? I feel like that- We should... would be really fun around the holidays. That would be fun.

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Instead of writing to Santa, you can write to us and ask us questions about- Yeah... really anything. I would say, like, we're pretty much experts in everything, so don't hold back. That would be good for...

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We should do that for, like, a holiday episode. Mm-hmm. Yeah. 100%, and I'm gonna come on this thing with a sequin Santa hat. Mm.

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Um, wait, another thing I wanna talk about that I just saw this morning is a new independent media outlet that has just popped up. Oh, I saw that too. Hearing Things. I'm really excited. Yeah. Yeah. I think it's great.

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Yeah. Mm-hmm. Super cool. Uh, you know, in, in, in the vein of, I think, a Hells Gate, or is it Hellgate? Hellgate or a 404 Media, which are all, like...

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So one interesting thing about this- Are they doing a collective model? I didn't read the editor letter. Yeah, so- Mm-hmm...

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so, so these are all three separate worker-owned, um, publications, but they're kind of r- uh, run... So they use Ghost. Um, is, it's, which, you know, Ghost is like another- Mm...

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newsletter first, like, publishing tool. Um, they use that, but what's interesting about it is there's this other company in between called- Lead. No. Did I tell you about this? No, it's, it's not Lead.

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It's, like, Out- Was it Outpost? Um, I was just... Outpost, yeah, so outpost.pub. I was checking them out.

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So this is interesting, because they basically are a, like, co-op, um, they're a publishers' cooperative, so 404's on them. Mm-hmm. Uh, the Le- The Lever Tangle, The Vallejo Sun, Hellgate now, um, uh, now Hearing Things.

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And it, it's, it's interesting, 'cause it's, like, a service provider, I guess, built on Ghost, but it's this guy who worked for Wired for, like, a decade, who, like, wrote for Wired for, like, a decade- Mm... um, who,

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who runs it. Um, I don't know.

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It's, uh, maybe I don't know m- enough about it to get into it right now, but I will say it is nice to see another independent worker-owned, uh, public, uh, publication rise from the ashes of, I think some of these people were laid off from Pitchfork- Yeah...

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like, a year, nine months ago it was, yeah. Absolutely. Hold onto your butts, Pitchfork. Mm-hmm. And we might even have an opportunity in an upcoming episode to talk about worker-owned- Some of these things.

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Stay tuned... media collectives. Stay tuned. Um, do you... Okay, so speaking of Pitchfork,

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I was thinking about last night how the computer is now so much a work tool for me, whereas, you know, I mean, obviously in college- Computer, famously a work tool for many people. Famously a com- Mm-hmm.

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Well, okay, no, but, uh, I was thinking about it in, in the sense of, like, music and, like, music consumption, uh, where now I'm, uh, I'm on Spotify.

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I use Spotify, and I think I brought this up recently where I'm like, I was like, "Okay," like, "music quality, whatever, I'll try, I'll try Apple Music," you know? I'll get the three months free.

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So I've been trying to use Apple Music, but it's hard, because, like, I don't remember what I listen to. Or, like, um, when somebody asks me, like, "What have you been listening to?"

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And I'm like, "Well, let me, let me, let me, let me, let me pull up my phone. Open up Spotify. I don't, I don't remember what I've been listening to."

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Um, but when it, the computer as a work tool, I just mean that, like, when I was still working in, like, kitchens, so, like, you know, the first couple years of my 20s, I... The computer wasn't a work tool.

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It was, it was, it was a leisure tool where I would, like- Mm... after work, I would, you know, go home and open up my, like, 10 music blogs or whatever that I looked at to find new music. Um,

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do you, like, actively find new music anywhere, or do you just use, like, you know, the, the streamers? So you feel like having an email job has made you more lazy about your music consumption? Uh, n- it's not...

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You, that's one way of putting it. Another way of putting it is I, like, I don't have time for it, and, like, I've got other leisure activities. Like, I've, you've, I've gotta watch the football on Saturdays, you know?

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Yeah. I go in and out of being really proactive about discovery. Um-I do look at stuff that Spotify suggests. Mm-hmm.

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Um, there's people I follow on social media where if they, like, tweet about a song I'll, like, bookmark it- Oh, yeah... and then come back to it later and, like, go check it out on Spotify.

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Yeah, and because I put together monthly playlists for Dirt, I always want it to be... like, have, like, fresh stuff in there. Yeah. Oh, true. Yeah. Um, so yeah. But I will say recently I've been really, uh...

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really busy and not listening to as much new music. Yeah. But that's just, like, a cyclical thing. Um, so Spotify, Apple Music- Mm-hmm... one place that I don't really find new music these days is on the radio.

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Um, which our guest today, big radio person. Who are we talking to? So our guest today is Elise Peppel, and she is the director of Marfa Public Radio.

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Um, she's had a long history in radio, particularly public radio, and we're super interested in hearing about the experience of running a local radio station, especially in a place as unique as Marfa.

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And, uh, Francis just got back from Marfa, so it's definitely gonna be a rich conversation. It's definitely on the mind. Uh, all right. Elise is here. Let's let her in. Hi. Hello. [laughs] Hi, good- good morning.

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Good morning. It's nice to see you both. Thank you. Yeah. Hello. Nice to meet you. This is funny because Elise and I have actually met in person, and Francis and I have never met in person. Yeah. Mm-hmm.

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And we've been hosting this podcast [laughs] for several months. This is episode 11, I believe. Yeah. Yeah. Mm-hmm. Lucky 11.

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This is also funny because, um, I'm wearing the dress that I wore to the Murrow Awards last night. Mm. Um, and definitely I'm hurting this morning from our after party. Mm.

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So did you sleep in the dress, or are you just getting home? [laughs] Just getting home. [laughs] I got home at 3:00 AM. Mm. Oh my God. Uh- I didn't know you guys throw down like that...

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and I, I didn't know we would either. Yeah. Public radio is 24/7. Crazy. [laughs] Pub- exactly. Exactly. [laughs] Um- That's very cool. I love that...

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the Murrow Awards, I hadn't heard of this until I was looking, looking up Marfa Public Radio and looking you up. And you guys have won a, a brace of them. You've won, like, dozens of these awards. Yes.

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What are these awards? We have. Um, what are they? They're, um, one of the highest honors in journalism. Okay. In, like, radio spe- specifically, broadcasting? Like... Mm, yeah, media. You know, it's like TV and radio.

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Okay. Yeah, yeah. Mm-hmm. I, I was, um- Yeah... I was on the website earlier, the Murrow We- um, or it was the, the RTDNA, Radio Television Digital News Association website. Uh, and- Rolls off the tongue, right?

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It really does. [laughs] But no, but, um, there was this great...

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this extremely long speech that Murrow gave, uh, called Wires and Lights in a Box, which is about, like, the responsibility of, of the media to the public, and hard-hitting journalism, et cetera.

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Um, but I thought it worth noting that he gave that speech exactly 66 years ago today. Whoa. Mm-hmm. Crazy. So I did do him the favor of reading 3,000-some of the 4,000-some words that it wa- It was really, really- Wow.

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It was really long. [laughs] It's very impressive, Francis. You, you might be the only one. [laughs] Who's ever read it, yeah. Gold star. It was stirring. Mm-hmm. Well, so Francis just got back from Marfa, so- You did?

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I did. I was there for a wedding a week ago. Where did they get married? They, they got married in the St. Paul's Episcopal, but the, the- Cool... the pre-wedding party was in the arena at Chinati.

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So I asked my friend if he, if he knew you or knew of you or what he knew of, of Marfa Public Radio, and he said that he, he knows Yvonne, um- Uh-huh... who's the station direct- what's, what's her role?

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She's the station manager. Okay. Yeah. And then he, he said- Yeah... he, he lived there for a couple years after college too, um, working at Chinati, but that he was a big fan of Billy and Joanie's show and Bebe's show.

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Oh, yeah. Oh, yeah. Mm-hmm. Yeah. Anyways. Small town. Lovely town. Small town, yeah. Do you- So small... you don't... So do you live between there and, and Brooklyn? Right now that's what I do. Mm-hmm. Yeah.

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I lived there full time for seven years. Wow. And then after the pandemic I was like, "Okay, I... There- I need some things- [laughs]... that don't exist in a 2,000-person town." After seven years. Yeah.

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And where were you before Marfa? I was in Portland, Maine. Mm-hmm. Oh, big Maine head here. Mm. Mm-hmm. Yeah, we- Really? Well, Daisy. Well, me. Daisy, yes, yes... I'm actually driving...

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I'm driving back up this afternoon if you wanna- Oh, you are? Do you wanna meet in Bath, and... or if you want a ride, just hop on Metro North. You can come up with me. I'll drop you- Okay... in Bath. Um,

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so Francis, have you heard of... Is it the Salt Institute? Is that what it's called? The Salt Institute? Mm-hmm. I had not heard of this. Elise, do you wanna explain what it is? Sure.

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Um, the Salt Institute existed for, like, I don't know, 50 years, but eventually it became where people learned how to make public radio and podcasts. Mm. 'Cause there, there wasn't... Like, I would say

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10 years ago, 20 years ago, that is where if you were getting into public radio or podcasting, that's where you would train. Mm-hmm. And it's changed since then, but yeah. So that was in Portland, Maine.

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And, um, I heard about it a lot when I was in college. There were a lot of alumni that worked in media who had gone through the Salt Institute.

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I feel like I remember looking at the site at one point and being like, "Should I do this?" Um, but when I, I interned at NPR twice in DC, and that was my first entry point into, um, like, the NPR network. Mm.

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And the difference between, like, local radio stations that run autonomously, but then they willI guess, correct me if I'm wrong, like license stuff that's produced by NPR headquarters in DC and like vice versa.

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Um, but the programming is independently produced, which I think a lot of people just think NPR is this one mo- Monolith... like- Mothership. Mm-hmm, exactly.

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[clears throat] Um, but I interviewed to work, continue working at a lot of these local radio stations. I think the furthest flung one that I interviewed at was Hawaii Public Radio. Whoa.

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And I think I got to like the top few candidates, and it's interesting to think about how different my life would have been. [laughs] But I was never strong producing the audio.

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My role as an intern was on like the digital side and social media management. Um, so that would've been my entry point into these, uh, independent stations.

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Um, and I think eventually I would have learned more about the audio production side, but it's just not the path my life took. But you were in Alaska at some point, at Alaska Public Radio.

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How early in your career was that? Um, it was at the beginning. Mm-hmm. But I did it... I think a lot of people... Yeah, like [clears throat] working in radio in a rural place is an entry point. Mm-hmm.

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Um, but I was already living in Alaska, and then I, I had moved from Brooklyn to Alaska. And I, um, lived in this 200-person town, and I loved every- I loved everybody- Mm-hmm... I lived near.

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And so StoryCorps had started when I was in Brooklyn, and then I called StoryCorps and said like, "You should record stories in Alaska." And so they hired me to produce and record their, a series of interviews in Alaska.

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Um, so I got my start in Alaska, but with StoryCorps- Mm-hmm... based in Brooklyn, and then I started working with the radio stations in Alaska.

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I, I was listening to another podcast you were on, and you were talking about how when you started doing that, um, it was like this kinda weird thing where you, you, you were talking to somebody for a story and he was like, "Oh yeah, Nat- Nat Geo talked to me last week, and Smithsonian- Yeah...

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like the week before." Um- Yeah... that's like, uh, 'cause I feel, you know, people want... You, you go, "Let's go to the e- the ends of the Earth. Let's go to Alaska to get those stories." Yeah.

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But then like everyone's having that same thought. I don't know, what, tell me about that. Yeah. I think also I was talking about, um, like being a white person- Yeah...

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and recording stories in, um, indigenous communities. It's, and, uh, yeah, like I think StoryCorps is something that like in Brooklyn everyone was like, "Oh my God, I love StoryCorps." Mm-hmm.

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Um, but it's more complicated when, um, you're going to a place that has been colonized more recently. Yeah.

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Um, so yeah, so there was this elder who lived in this village called Shishmaref, and it's like a place where the, the, the, the village will have to be relocated because of, um, the sea level rising. Wow. Mm-hmm.

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And so yeah, everybody was interviewing him. He's like, "Yeah, Smithsonian. Yeah, Nat Geo. I don't care about you." It's like, fair enough. Yeah.

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Well, it's like the, you know, the, it, you gotta produce the stories for the millions of people back in Brooklyn, and it's like this, yeah, this one-way kind of thing.

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Um, so Alaska, Marfa, to a lesser extent Maine, why are you so... You're so, you seem really drawn to these like re- kind of remote places. I, I'm curious about this.

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[laughs] Yeah, it's like Alaska, it's all the far reaches, right? Mm-hmm. Yeah. Alaska, Maine, and then Marfa. Mm-hmm. Um, why am I drawn to them? Ooh, I, I mean, like- Not to like- If this were-...

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put you on the psych chair... if this were therapy- Yeah. [laughs] Yeah. Yeah, well, I- It sort of is. We both use this as therapy. I, yeah. Mm-hmm. [laughs] Yeah.

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Um, well, I think I was real lucky to live in big cities. I li- Mm. I grew up in Baltimore. Okay.

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And then I lived in M- Montreal, Paris, New York, and then when I became a park ranger, I moved to this town of 200 people, 300 people. Um, and I grew up in a really big family. Mm. My mom's one of 12, I'm one of four.

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And she's a twin. Which is a lot to be seen. And I'm a twin. Oh, wow. Mm-hmm. Um, and so what I found living in a small town is that it's like living with your family. Mm-hmm. And so I, yeah, I loved it.

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I, I think people... It's funny, people who live in cities are often like, "You must be so lonely in a rural place." But, but if you- It's the opposite... if you were... [laughs] It's the opposite.

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It's like wherever you go, you say hi to everyone. Mm-hmm. People stop by. I mean, I used to wake up in the cabin that I lived in, and my neighbor would like be on my bed next to me with a cup of coffee, you know?

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She'd be like, "Hi, good morning." Let myself in. [laughs] Yeah. Yeah. Which I like. Yeah. Other, other people don't like that. Mm. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. So it's this like sense of community.

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I, I feel like, too, like that's what, I, that's like what a local public radio station is about, and like that's why it's so important. Yeah.

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Like even just being in, when I was in Marfa for, for this wedding, like the sense of community was very palpable in, in, I mean, in various ways.

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But like, uh, for example, we were like setting up chairs in this church for the wedding, and, uh, we needed more chairs, so the, the, the, the pastor or whatever, uh, called up like- Vic, Victor Wallace...

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yeah, I'm not- Mike Wallace. Uh, Mike. Yeah, Mike. Yeah. Yeah, great guy. Mike. Um, anyways, he, he called up like the, a- another church that was a, a block away, and- Mm...

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they're like, "Oh, you guys have some chairs in the basement, right?" So, so me and the groom and a- Mm... another friend went over, and like we grabbed them, and we were talking to the lady who came over.

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And like, I don't know. I'm not, I didn't grow up religious. Both my parents, you know, were raised religious, abandoned it, et cetera. Um, so the, the whole church world is foreign to me.

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But I thought, I was like I, I can see like-Like hear how important that is in this... You're, you're in the middle of nowhere, and there's like, you know, 1,700 people in this town.

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You got Alpine with like 6,000 people that's a half hour away, et cetera. Um, but my point being is like, I think

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to me, m- I'm guessing part of the appeal of like working in public radio in a place like Marfa is like that you're- Mm-hmm... like strengthening and reproducing this sense of community. Um- Mm-hmm...

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and I'm, I'm curious about like what... I don't know, how that work. Talk about that, the community building work of public radio in a place like Marfa. So I think, and Daisy and I have talked about this. Mm-hmm.

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It's like what you have to understand, and I think in urban context this is hard to imagine- Mm-hmm... but in, in, in a rural place like Marfa,

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there isn't cell service all the time, and there isn't internet all the time, and so the radio is still a lifeline to people. I mean, when you can't access information, you turn on the radio. Mm-hmm.

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If there's a wildfire and you need to know what's happening, you turn on the radio.

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Um, and so yeah, I think, um, you know, the world is changing and like people are w- on their phones, and, and so it's hard to imagine, but, but radio in rural places is still this kind of essential service.

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Um, and I think the other thing about it is like y- you're in... Y- I mean, you've been there. Like it's, it's a remote place- Mm-hmm...

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and each town is really far from e- the next, and radio's kinda like the companion for people, you know? Um, and it's I- I... One of the things that I love about public radio is that it's a connector. Mm-hmm.

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And people feel a sense of community through their station. You know, like people, whether you're in Brooklyn or Marfa, like people have their tote bag that says like Marfa Public Radio- Yeah...

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or WNYC or WBEZ because people feel a sense of community with their station. Mm. Yeah.

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And I think, I mean, this a, a little bit goes back to talking to indigenous people in Alaska and sort of toeing this line of like making sure their narratives are just not s- for outsider consumption.

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But because of the small population in Marfa and the fact that, um, most local radio stations are funded by a combination of donations and grants, um, you have a much smaller people, pool of people to give grants, or sorry, give donations that are directly in the community.

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Mm-hmm. And so one thing that we talked about is,

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uh, yeah, obviously it's programming by the community for the community, but there are a lot of people who come through Marfa as tourists, and creating a relationship to them where they feel a connection to Marfa and could potentially want to continue to fund the work that Marfa Public Radio does creates a scenario where, um, by nature of that, that market and the extended far-flung community of people that have special memories of Marfa or connections to it, um, that there is some amount of programming that's also created for outsider consumption as well.

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And can you talk about how that ties into the business model? Sure. Yeah. I wanna say three things. So we just last night won a National Murrow Award for our podcast, Marfa For Beginners. Congratulations.

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And- It's amazing. Huge. [laughs] Thank you. Thank you.

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And, and one of the reasons to make that podcast, there's like 17 reasons, but one was to say, yeah, this station exists in a population undense area, and the business model of public radio is really membership, right?

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Mm-hmm. Like, so, so stations in cities have millions of people listening, and so they have thousands of supporters. But when you're located in a place like Marfa, um,

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there are just less people, so you, you don't have the critical mass of millions of people and thousands of donors.

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For us, you know, I'll listen to a pledge drive for a station, a city, and they're like, "We have 10,000 new members." For us, we're like, "300, please." [laughs] Like, "Let me just hit 300." Mm-hmm.

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So with Marfa For Beginners, one of the thoughts to me was how do we make some, some kind of content that, um, reaches people who visit this place?

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Because there are 2,000 residents of Marfa, but there are 60,000 visitors- Mm... to Marfa. So, so can we start to, um- That's like a yearly number?... have people relate? Well, nobody really keeps track. Yeah, yeah.

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But that's one. Interesting. That was a number a couple years ago. Um, so, so yeah. How do we get people to relate to the station? Um, and, and is it possible for people who visit to support the radio station?

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Um, I guess a- and I wanted to say like two other things.

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First, um, the thing that's amazing about public radio, like NPR or any station, is that the, the mission of public radio is to solve local problems and lift the human spirit. Mm-hmm.

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And I just like, you know, in, in the media ecosystem that we are in, it's like, what media outlet says, "We're here to lift the human spirit?" Mm-hmm. A- in these days, you know?

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And if you go back to that mission statement, which is long, but, um, there's like a, there's a quote that I often think of that's like, "We will regard people and differences, um, with joy rather than derision, um, and rather than hate."

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And it's like, that's wild. Mm-hmm. Like that's w- it's a wild, beautiful mission. Um, so whether it's NPR national or a member station, I think that's very special. Mm-hmm. Um, for our radio station, though, it's like

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we're out here [laughs] try- trying to make that happen with a small team around the clock, and then funding it because of its location is challenging. Yeah. Like it, yeah, it's just challenging.

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Do you get some of those, like some of the, you know, the, the passers through, like funding, like committing to the pledge drive?We do now. Yeah. Yeah, we do. Um, it used to be...

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And for most stations, people give to their home station, right? Mm-hmm. Um, so our members historically have been people who live in the Big Bend, in the Permian Basin.

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Um, but in this, basically one of the experiments to me is to say like, "Okay, there's gonna always be a ceiling." Um, so yeah, can we, can we get people to join?

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And so it's kind of unusual, like m- yeah, I would say m- yeah, it's not normal to have members from other places. Yeah. But our last pledge drive, I'd say almost 50% of our members live in places that are not Marfa.

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Oh, wow. Um, yeah. That's amazing.

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And with the success of Marfa For Beginners, do you think you'll continue to create programming that's specifically targeted towards people that feel an affinity for Marfa but don't live there? Yeah.

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Um, well, it's funny because when we made the podcast, we had, like, a list of principles of where we would come from in our work. Mm-hmm. Um, one, um, Marcel Duchamp said, "Don't give all your secrets away." Mm-hmm.

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And so one of our goals in making, like, a quote, quote local podcast was to not give the town's secrets away. Mm-hmm. Um, but we also...

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It's like, so how do we tell these stories without, like, saying we're, we're the truth- Mm-hmm... or, like, we know what's up? Um, or saying like, "Here's, here's the authentic Marfa," whatever.

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That's a problematic phrase. But, um, and then another, another principle was to be making something that, like, people who lived in Marfa would love- Mm-hmm... and people who didn't live in Marfa would love.

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So we call it a tourism podcast for locals. And we were meeting with, um, PRX, who we love, and they, they do such great work in podcasts, and they were like, "Um, no.

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Like, you ca- you can't market to these two very different audiences." [laughs] And we were like, "But that's what we're gonna do." That's the whole thing. And they... And they were like, "No," 'cause they're smart.

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They're like, "No, you have to choose one audience and, you know, figure out what you're doing for that audience." And, um, what's so crazy is it ended up working. Mm-hmm.

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You know, we made this podcast, and it's one of the things that people who live in the broadcast area are like, "Oh, I love this." And then it's also something that people who don't live in the area listen to. Um, we...

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Yeah. We just got nominated for an award for Best Road Trip Podcast. And so I guess, you know, that would be, like, for, for visitors. Mm-hmm.

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Um, and then into the future, Daisy, I guess, like, what we're trying to think about is how to make our content

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to replicate that model, where it's like we want this content to speak to people, our neighbors, um, and we also want it to speak to this national audience.

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So our latest project is a newsletter, um, which is called The Desert Dispatch, and, and it's kind of like a version of Marfa For Beginners, where in the newsletter we... Zoe Kerlin is the producer of this newsletter.

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There's like a- Dirt contributor. Dirt contributor. Yeah. Yeah, that's right. That's right. Shout out to Zoe. Zoe's so talented.

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Um, and so in that newsletter every week, there's, like, a kind of slice of life of West Texas. Mm-hmm. And it could be going to a gem and mineral show.

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It could be going to, like, a bat emergence at a cave that's a national park. It could be going to Midland, which is part of the oil patch, and, like, looking at it from a sociological level.

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So yeah, it's like this, this way to look at the content, um, as both local and national. Mm-hmm. I love bats and minerals. [laughs] So I would love all of that. You have to read...

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Oh my gosh, Zoe's essay on the great bat emergence is poetic. You... I will send it to you. Let's, we should syndicate. Let's, we'll talk off mic. Um- Um, well, wait. Okay. One thing. You were talking about Midland.

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I was looking at the broadcast- Mm-hmm...

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area for, for Marfa Public Radio, and there's, there's kind of the big major one is this Marfa-Fort Davis area, and then there's Alpine, Marathon, Presidio, Midland, and Odessa as these kind of, like, separate, uh, broadcast areas.

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Um, and so I mean, for the listeners, this is like, this is like hundreds of miles of, of, of radius around it, but then these other places with these, uh, much smaller kind of broadcast areas.

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Does Marfa Public Radio kind of, like, serve as also, like, the singular local radio station for some of these, for some of these other areas? Or is, like, is there another radio station there? That...

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I'm imagining there's not. Yeah. No, absolutely. So Marfa Public Radio has five transmitters, and we e- we broadcast to an area that is the size of South Carolina. Mm-hmm. So to drive...

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Our s- you can drive for five hours through our signal. Mm-hmm. So even though it's called Marfa Public Radio for this tiny town, it's really- West Texas. Yeah... West Texas'- Mm-hmm... 's Public Radio. Mm-hmm. Yeah.

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That makes sense. Um, another... So when I was there, I, I did have coffee at, and a sandwich at The Sentinel. Uh, and I'm curious- Yeah... if...

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Uh, my impression is that, like, this is kind of this cafe that is part of a way of funding this local newspaper. Am I right, or is that just, like, the name of it is the same as the newspaper?

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Or is this, like, kind of... You know, being in that cafe, it feels like I'm in, like, Say Coffee in, in, in East Williamsburg or something like that. Um- It's very hip. Very hip. Yeah. It's very hip.

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It's very beautiful. Um, yeah. I was just there, I don't know, three days ago. Um, it's a great place to hang out, and yeah, I think... I can't speak to, like, how their business- Yeah... model works- Mm-hmm...

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um, because I, I don't have the details. I can tell you all about my P&L and- [laughs] Yeah. Well, yeah, just like- But you guys are sort of, like, coexisting- Yeah... pillars of different mediums. Yeah.

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Is that fair to say? Yeah. And, and so I think what, yeah, what they're trying to do or what their kind of premise was-Uh, was, double was, was, um, can we support media by having this- Yeah. -coffee shop?

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Mm-hmm. Yeah. Just thought it was interesting. I hadn't really seen that before. Yeah. Yeah, absolutely. I bought a T-shirt. It says, "Print isn't dead." [laughs] Mm-hmm. It's a great T-shirt.

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Um, well, I, now I need a, a Marfa Public Radio T-shirt or maybe even a tote bag. Maybe a tote bag. Yeah. [laughs] Maybe both. Maybe both. Yeah. Yeah. Um, what...

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So you mentioned, obviously, I think we sort of touched on creating joy or lifting the human spirit- Mm-hmm... but obviously local problems.

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Those local problems probably are, you know, sort of separate from the types of topics that are in, uh, Marfa For Beginners, but could you talk a little bit about, like, what, um, local

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reporting has been the most impactful over the last year for you guys? Um, yeah. I mean, I, I guess I'll think about it in, in the last eight years- Mm. -uh- Mm...

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'cause that's, uh, on election night, it'll, I'll have my eight-year- Oh, wow... anniversary. Yeah. Oof. Wild, wild day to start- Mm, mm, mm... running a radio station. The more things change, et cetera. Um- Yeah. Yeah.

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[laughs] Yeah, exactly. Um, so th- I think there are a couple things in terms of reporting. It's like what I was saying about wildfires. You know, like, if there's a wildfire, and people need to hear what's happening.

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I mean, uh, and I guess this also overlaps with how the station serves a place like Marfa and a place like Midland.

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Um, our motto is radio for a wide range, and, and it's kind of, I think, you know, it, it's fair to say that public media c- can be an echo chamber. There's a certain audience for public media.

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Um, but because of our broadcast range, we really are reaching very different communities. Mm. Midland is very different from Marfa. Um, and so we have listeners who aren't necessarily typical public radio listeners.

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And so I'll never forget in, in one of the wildfires, we basically, um, w- we're reporting nonstop, right? We're just, like, on the air telling people, like, uh, "This is what's happening. This is what you need to know."

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And it's kind of, like, serving this function of just saying, like, "We're here with you." Mm-hmm. "We're here with you. This is the information."

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Um, and we were going out, Sally and I were going out, um, to meet with the firefighters every morning at sunrise. She hated it because we started, like, Facebook Living this- Mm...

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o- years ago, and she was like, "I didn't sign up for this."

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Um, and so, but I remember going to the public library in Fort Davis, and there was a mama, and there, there were, there were six kids, and they were, like, stair step. Their heads were- [laughs]...

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like stair steps [laughs] just, like, next to each other at these computers. And so I was talking to this mom, and, and these six kids turn around, you know, like one, two, three, four, five, six.

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And, um, she homeschools her kids, and she's her f- she's a, a rancher. And, and she said, like, "Oh, l- you know, thank you." Mm.

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"Like, we, we wouldn't know where the fire line is 'cause we don't have internet, so we listen to the radio to know where the fire line is and that we're safe." Um, yeah, that, like, that's- You had said...

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Wait, you had said something, um, a few, like, a minute ago about the, the NPR listener isn't the average, uh, public radio listener. What does that, what does that mean? What is the average public radio listener?

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I mean, I, I can't exactly say- Yeah... but I think, I think we can all agree that- Not the stereotype of it, at least as- Yeah... it's understood in the public imagination and, and memes of, you know, soy coffee- Yeah.

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Yeah. [laughs]... tote bag- [laughs] Uh-huh... Brooklyn. Right. Yeah. You know, somehow- Yeah... have a New Yorker tote on one arm and- Yeah... a NPR tote on the other one. Yeah. Mm-hmm. Yes. Yeah. The hipster.

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Yeah, yeah. Yeah. But public service and programming for that type of person is very different from what you're describing, which is, like, could not be more of a public service. You know, you're- Right...

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reporting on people's health, safety, climate, um, you know, which we all experience, but in this market is different. Mm. And, um- Right... I wanna make sure that we ask,

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and, you know, if you wanna elaborate a little bit more on the funding model. I think we got pretty good, like, broad strokes, but- Mm-hmm...

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if people are listening to this, I know you have been in a pledge drive period. Like, what's the best way that they can support Marfa Public Radio? Oh, thank you- Yeah... Daisy, for asking.

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We just started our pledge drive yesterday. Mm-hmm. Um, and so, you know, basically because we're in a place that's population undense, um, to become a member is a way to have a huge impact for our station.

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Like, if you can imagine it, if, if we have 300 people who care about Marfa Public Radio give in this pledge drive, like, that will sustain, it's, uh, 1/15 of our budget, you know?

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Um, so the best way to support the station is to become a member. Um, and I think,

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yeah, I, I, I don't know that people think about that, but the broad strokes of our fundraising, most radio stations are about 50% funded from members. Mm. But again, if you have millions of people, that works.

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But if you have n- [laughs] a couple hundred thousand people in Midland and, and 2,000 people in Marfa, maybe 20,000 people in the Big Bend, there's, there's a limited opportunity. Uh, there's definitely a plateau.

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Um, so, so yeah, for people who are listening, to become a member is a way to have a huge impact. Mm-hmm. How many, um, people work for the station, like, full-time, part-time?

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Uh, w- what, what's the human labor that goes into, like, keeping this thing going? Oof.Oh my gosh. Okay. So I feel like this is so obvious, but when I say it, people are like, "Oh, I forgot about that."

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[laughs] And I forgot that my first day on the job, which was election night 2016, I was like, "Right." [laughs] "This is a nonprofit that never closes." Radio stations never close. Mm-hmm. They operate 24/7. Um,

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and the news cycle is always breaking. Um, and since 2016, it, it broke and broke and broke over and over again, more [laughs] with more rapidity. Mm-hmm.

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Um, so before I tell you how many people work at the radio station, I also just wanna say, like, it is a crazy nonstop effort. Um, and I- our team has been changing, you know, because of where we're located.

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We're a small team. A lot of us, including me, h- didn't have a background in the, the role that- Mm... we've had. I had never run a radio station. I produced audio.

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Um, and so right now we have, I think it's seven full-time staff members and three part-time staff members, and that's to do everything. Mm-hmm.

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That's, you know, the broadcast engineering, that's the reporting, that's podcasts, that's fundraising, that's admin. It's all, all the things. Mm. Everybody's... Everybody wears, like, five hats, you know?

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Every job is like slash this slash this. Yeah. Mm. Um, speaking of podcasts, I read on the website that you started this thing, NPR Studios, uh, a couple years ago- Mm-hmm...

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which, uh, I understood reading it as this sort of initiative to produce both broadcast and podcast stories, but this is w- I think what, um, Welcome to Marfa comes out of. T- what is NPR Studios?

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I mean, we don't really need a name for it. [laughs] It's, it's, it's easier to talk about with a name. Yeah. It's really... But it's an approach that- Okay... to, to public media.

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And I think there was a time where radio stations were like, "Oh, podcast studios. We should have a podc- Mm. "People are doing... Let's get in on that." Mm-hmm.

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Um, and I guess I just thought it was, that was a limited perspective. That was before podcasting kind of tanked. Yeah.

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Um, but I thought it was the wrong way to think about it, because part of our power of p- in, in public media is the broadcast. And so to just say, "Oh, we're gonna have some podcasts.

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Let's get in on podcasts," doesn't really make sense. I think we have to reimagine all of public media, and so that includes podcasts and broadcasts.

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And so, like an example, um, we do these two, what I would call, like, on-air rituals- Mm... where for, um, for Valentine's Day... The town of Valentine is, you know, is- Drove through it, yeah... next to Marfa.

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Yeah, yeah. So for Valentine's Day, we do this thing called the Love Drive, and it's for love, not for money, and we, we broadcast people's love notes on the air. And so that's like a broadcast...

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I- it's annoying to say this, but it's like a broadcast experiment, and, and that is part of the studio thinking, is to say, how do we use any transmission tool, whether it's broadcast or podcast, to create, like, a special sense of belonging and meaning for people?

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Um, so we do that for love, we do that for death. Um, for Dia de los Muertos- Mm... we do an honor ofrenda. And so yeah, just to think about rather than, like,

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um, kind of myopically saying, "Oh, podcasts will solve our problems," it's like, no, we have to reimagine all of public media and, and that's both podcasts and broadcasts. Which is...

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So thinking of the word podcast here, it's like you... I mean, radio, for radio, you record stories and it's like serialized stories, and, like, publish them anyway. It's like, what's the...

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Is, is, is, is that just a podc- Like, what's the difference between a podcast and, like, a produced serialized radio show? Is there [laughs] is there one? I... Not necessarily.

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I mean, you can just put it in both locations. Yeah. I would say the difference is, like, I'm pretend holding my phone. [laughs] Like- Mm-hmm... yeah. But you- Podcasts are, are your phone radio. Yeah. You know? Mm-hmm.

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Yeah. Phone radio on demand. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Love, death, and taxes, evergreen programming. Um, so to be a little bit more specific about becoming a member, what does that mean? What do people give? What do they get?

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Obviously, they get an uplifted spirit, but- Yeah, it's like a Visa commercial. Yeah. It's priceless- [laughs] Yes... to become a member [laughs] of Marfa Public Radio. Of course, of course. Um, yeah. So I... What do...

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So you would just go on our website- Mm... marfapublicradio.org, and you can click the donate button. You could call us. You could look us up on Instagram, um, just the name Marfa Public Radio.

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Um, and you can give kind of at any level, right? And part of the beauty of public media is that, like, a donation of $5, we, we consider that as meaningful as a donation of $1,000. Mm-hmm.

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And so we have that range, right? Like, I remember being on the air and, um, someone pulled their big rig over and just, like, jumped out and handed me five bucks, and it's like- [laughs]

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So, so it's, like, super moving for anyone- Yeah... to contribute to the station. And then for people who have more means, it's like, yeah, if you can give a grand to this radio station, that's huge.

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Um, and, and what do people get? We, um, Daisy, not that the bar is high, but we have the best merch in public radio. Everybody says it. Mm-hmm.

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We have really cool, whether it's, like, T-shirts, bandanas, mugs, we have the best looking merch. And so what a person gets when they become a member is some really cool merch.

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Um, and then the other thing that's just true is that, like, in the public media system, this station is a gem. Mm. Like, there, there really isn't...

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And I, I'm not allowed to say this 'cause I run the station, but, um- You're allowed. We'll allow it. Okay. You're supporting one of the gems of public media.

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So when you become a member of Marfa Public Radio, it's just like you're supporting-This critical lifeline service, you're supporting creativity. Mm-hmm.

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You're supporting what I would say is, like, a really forward-thinking approach to how public media can exist in this day and age. Um, but yeah, I don't know,

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I don't know if that's a, that's a compell- I, I don't know if that's- Well, okay, you're talking about how it's- Um-... you know, one of the, one of the gems in, in public media, one of the best public radio stations.

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You are on the NPR board of directors, correct? One of 12 member station- Yeah... uh, seats on the board.

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Tell, tell us more about, like, what, what that is and what you do there and, I don't know, how you then interact with, like, the broader national public radio system. Yeah. You've done your research. Yes. Um, [laughs]

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so I, I serve on the NPR national board, um, and like you said, it's, it's a combination of, um, CEOs from radio stations and other members of the board.

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Um, and really the point is, so because, because a listener doesn't get this, but we talked about this at the beginning, NPR is not a mothership to stations. Mm-hmm. I wish it were.

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Like, I wish there was just one organization and everything was worked out. I wish we didn't have to have an engineering department, a membership department, all, all the things.

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But so what's wild about how public media started is that stations are separate from NPR National. Um, and as Daisy was explaining, it's like NPR creates programming that stations buy. Mm-hmm.

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Um, so i- in terms of a business model, it's kind of insane. It's like there's 247 radio stations, each doing their own thing all over the country.

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Um, and then the, with NPR National, to, to be on that board is to kind of, um, lend the perspective of, of public radio stations to the NPR National board as an organization.

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Um, and so it's this great opportunity to help shape the leadership of that organization.

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It's a great opportunity to help shape the vision and strategy of that organization, um, and, and just to keep the perspective of member stations, um, on, on the leadership side of NPR. Um, and it's wild.

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You know, it's wild 'cause it's like our budget is $1.5 million, which is small- Yeah... for a radio station.

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And then to serve on a board [clears throat] that has a $300 million budget and 1,000 staff members, it's really amazing to kind of [laughs] be, like, the smallest and then also, uh, get to work with, um, the kind of the largest version of public media.

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Mm-hmm. So it sounds like it's sort of like a feedback and maybe even sometimes accountability mechanism for them, but does that flow both ways? Yeah. Uh, great question.

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NPR, because they have to make everything they do happen, they're... We don't get support from- Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm... NPR National. Mm-hmm. Stations don't.

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Um, we get a reduced fee for the programming that, that we have- Mm-hmm... from NPR, but they're, it's not a relationship where, say, like, they help us raise money. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Do you, uh...

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Are there any other station, like, peer stations that you particularly admire in other parts of the country? Great question, Francis. Oof. 100%. Um, let's see. Like, the smallest stations, my heart will always be- Mm...

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with Alaskan public radio stations, um, or, like, mountain town public radio stations, just, like, real rural stations- Yeah...

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um, whether that's, you know, uh, in Sitka, Alaska or Crested Butte, Colorado or the North Country, um, in the Adirondacks.

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And then there's some stations that are just, like, super special like KEXP in Seattle, like KCRW in LA. Mm. Um, Louisville Public Media is special in Louisville, Kentucky. Um, yeah, it's funny.

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It's like there's stations that I love because what they're doing is exciting, and then there's stations that I love because I love those places.

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So, like, Daisy, I don't know if you listen to Maine Public Broadcasting, but I love Maine Public Broadcasting 'cause I listen when I'm there, and it's, it's like I have a couple, like, home stations. Mm-hmm. Um,

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and then, oh, also favorite station, WFMU. They're... They have so much personality. They're based in Jersey City. Mm. They're an all-music station.

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Um, but yeah, I like, I like the small stations, the kind of innovating stations, and the ones with, like, a lot of personality. Yeah.

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Do you ever get calls from other station directors saying, "Hey, I'm having this problem. I don't know how to solve it"? Like, what's the camaraderie like between these different satellites?

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[laughs] The camaraderie is, I'm laughing. It's like a therapeutic laugh. Mm-hmm. It's kind of like if you just, like, put your hand up to someone else's, and you're like, "I see you." Ah, yeah. [laughs] I see...

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Well, yes. We talk. Leaders of radio stations talk all the time, and it's so therapeutic. You're just like, "I, I, I don't know what to do here."

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And, and you'll both, like, laugh and cry with each other because it's, it is a crazy world. Um, yeah, I've, I have never met more generous people. Like, two stories come to mind.

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One, like, when I got to the radio station my first day, I was like, "Oh..." You know, as an audio producer, I was like, "Okay, there's gonna be a manual- [laughs]...

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or, like, [laughs] a ex- like, a file that'll give me some outline- A laundry list... [laughs] how to run a radio station. [laughs] Mm.

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And I got to the radio station, and there was like, there wasn't even a computer in my office. There wasn't... There were no documents. Yeah. So I was like-Oh, low-key, how do I run a radio station?

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[laughs] Who needs a computer? Yo, low-key, how do you run a radio station? So I... [laughs] Yes. And so I have looked for, like before I got to the station, I did two things.

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I did like a nerdy, 'cause I love research- Mm-hmm... a road trip where I went to like the stations that I thought were doing really exciting work, whether it was like, you know,

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something like WNYC or, um, WMMT, which is in Whitesburg, Kentucky. It's a, a station that's also part of the Appalshop, which supports, uh, culture in Appalachia- Mm... and is super important right now post- Oh, yeah...

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um, the hurricane. Yeah. Um, so I did this like radio road trip, and then I also, because, um, there aren't many, uh, women in leadership roles in public media, or there, there were, or yeah- Yeah...

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generally there's more men in charge. Mm-hmm. So I looked for some women who ran stations, and I reached out to them before I took the job. So I called one of them when I got to the station. I was like, "Ah.

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[laughs] Um, what do I do?" And she was like, she's like my fairy godmother. Mm. She was like, "Elise, you need help." [laughs] And I was like, I was like, "I know. I need help."

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And she's like, "You just gotta say, 'Help!'" [laughs] And so I, there's this like email that goes to everyone who runs a radio station, and it was so embarrassing, but I literally- Reply all...

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wrote, reply all, every CEO of a station in the country. I was like, "Hi, um, so I just, uh, started running Marfa Public Radio. Is there a manual anywhere about how to do this?"

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And I got like 100 responses- Oh... within an hour. That's amazing. And some of them were like, "Ha, I wish. I wish." [laughs] Good luck. "Oh, God. Oh, no." [laughs] I was like, yeah.

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Um, so yeah, the camaraderie is amazing. Mm. Some of my closest friends are people who run other radio stations because yeah, we're all trying to solve these problems.

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Um, and whether you run a station that's tiny- Yeah... like Marfa Public Radio, or big like, you know, KCRW in LA, you're facing all... You're facing some of the same issues- At different scales... no matter what size.

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Yeah. Yeah. Um, so you've been in this job for eight years. I, I don't really know much about the state of like radio. Like I haven't, had driven a car regularly since 2012. Um- Mm... I, I don't know.

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In, in as much as you have like a thermometer on the state of radio, because I'm thinking of, you know, social media and stream- all the other ways you can spend your time.

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I think radio, I, I just think of people driving. Um, and I don't know. What, what... Like do you worry about the health of radio as a medium? Are you optimistic about it?

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Like what, like just I'm not situated at all on the state of radio as a medium. Love. I love that you're asking me to comment on the state of radio. Like, like I'm very important. Um- You are. Yeah.

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You know, much more than me. You're very important to us. Oh, thank you, Daisy. So what I would say about the state of radio is like, I don't know.

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There's, there's, uh, there's one, a premise and one faith that is like you should question everything. Mm-hmm. Not, you know, if you have faith, you should question it.

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And I think the same is true in any industry you're in. So I don't, I don't wanna like clutch my chest and be like, "Will radio survive?" Yeah. Because really the question is like, okay, this medium started

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50 odd years ago, 54 years ago. Or at the time, radio was a way to approach this public service mission. Mm-hmm.

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Um, and like you said, e- especially in the pandemic, so yeah, listening used to happen in cars, and then the pandemic changed everybody's...

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I mean, whole other big topic to discuss, [laughs] how did the pandemic change all of our lives? Um, so yeah, what we're seeing now is that listeners, the trend is going down, that, that- Mm...

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people are listening to other things. Um, and I think that's because now it's not that we live in cars, it's that we live with our iPhones. Yeah.

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So how do you translate this public service medium to a phone, or how do you translate it to these times? And yeah, so, so the, the data right now is that, um, listenership is down.

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Um, and then, but what I will say is overall, that I think it's like 40 million people interact with public radio. Um, so when you think of one media entity that has that audience, that, that's still- That's huge... big.

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Yeah. You know? That's significant. Um, and I think the question is, yeah, how, if, if public media were invented in 2024 instead of in... Ooh, God, can't, can't do math this early in the morning.

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[laughs] 19- Don't worry about it. I have no idea. Yeah. [laughs] 1993. Let's just say that. Um, yeah. It would look different. Like it wouldn't be based on broadcast technology. Mm-hmm.

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It would be based on TikTok- Vibes... social... Vibe technology. [laughs] Vibe technology. Vibes. [clapping] Vibe tech. [laughs] Um, I mean, I feel like that's a perfect note to end on.

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Not, I mean, I could keep talking about this forever, but um- No, I think that's perfect. Is there anything else- I love- Yeah. N- no, I love end, ending on vibe technology. [laughs] This has been Tasteland.

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Thank you for listening. Home of Vibe Tech. [upbeat outro music] Honey. It tastes just like it costs. Ooh,

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honey