WEBVTT

1
00:00:00.100 --> 00:00:13.680
[upbeat music] Welcome back to Tasteland. I am your co-host, Francis Zehrer. And I'm Daisy Alioto. And there's no guest today. You're stuck with us.

2
00:00:13.820 --> 00:00:26.390
But, um, yeah, we'll be talking about a few things that have been on our minds and in the news. I would like to start by saying I had a really moving experience this morning. Um, I, I went out.

3
00:00:27.060 --> 00:00:42.340
The local bakery in my neighborhood, they're closed on Mondays, so I tend to go on Tuesday morning to get a nice loaf of bread for my week. And I got a loaf of sourdough rye, sandwich shape loaf. Really good choice.

4
00:00:42.560 --> 00:00:52.690
Still hot from the oven, and I walked home. It's this kind of fall morning. I'm holding it to my chest. It was, it was, it was like [laughs] the warmth of a, of a child or something like that.

5
00:00:52.700 --> 00:01:05.280
I was gonna say, fatherhood, here I come. Yeah. Um, yeah. It... I don't know. It was a really beautiful moment. I just wanted to share that. That is a beautiful moment. Um- Mm-hmm... I liked that a lot. [laughs] I...

6
00:01:05.700 --> 00:01:18.620
A lot of times it's, my little morning taunt is, like, two iced coffees. And so- Two? Like, wow. It's... Yeah. It's like walking home with a j- They're both for you?... very cold baby in each hand. [laughs] Um, no.

7
00:01:18.700 --> 00:01:26.510
[laughs] I... That's horrible. Nobody wants to- More than one tray... what? No. Yeah... it's just not the same. Yeah. But, um- Yeah... one of them is usually for Ben. Okay. So- Okay...

8
00:01:26.540 --> 00:01:30.370
I actually- I wasn't sure if you were, like, preparing for your day- I usually ask for a tray... and then you go to the fridge, no ice...

9
00:01:30.370 --> 00:01:39.310
but now I have extra trays at my house, so I've been trying to remember to bring my tray. Trying to remember. So you've been stockpiling more trays, uh, and saying that you won't.

10
00:01:39.340 --> 00:01:45.780
Basically, I put it next to the door, and I still forgot it. Um- Mm-hmm. Uh, okay. Let's, let's talk about, let's talk about farming.

11
00:01:45.840 --> 00:01:58.960
We didn't really talk about this piece that a couple weeks ago we published, you published in Dirt a piece I wrote about both my own decision not to take over my family farm as well as the disappearance of family farms- Mm-hmm...

12
00:01:59.060 --> 00:02:15.720
of small farms rather, um, which are typically family farms, uh, in, in this country. I believe the stat was since the turn of the century, we've lost 13.2% of small farms in this country, which is 286,780.

13
00:02:16.280 --> 00:02:31.420
Um, I was inspired to write this after reading about Smallhold's bankruptcy. Adam Dimartino, co-founder, and I believe he was CTO was his, was his, uh, role there at Smallhold. Uh, but last year they went bankrupt.

14
00:02:31.630 --> 00:02:46.860
And when I had first learned about Smallhold like five, six years ago, I was fascinated by what seemed to be a profitable farm where you could make a good living, but you could still produce produce, and these kind of values that I grew up with, right?

15
00:02:46.900 --> 00:03:01.920
But it turns out that at the end of the day, despite all the VC cash that they raised, it was still a mushroom farm that was not quite profitable enough or scalable enough to justify venture investment.

16
00:03:02.020 --> 00:03:17.520
Um, related to that, I've just recently read this article about farmers, uh, really, really in the Hudson Valley, Catskills region. Um, a nice stat from this. This was in The New York Times a month or two ago.

17
00:03:18.980 --> 00:03:32.450
To quote here, "In Sullivan County, the latest census data show that of the 749 producers reported, 36% were new and beginning farmers." And then they spoke to farmers here of, of all ages, all backgrounds.

18
00:03:33.060 --> 00:03:45.269
Um, and there was kind of one who was, like, more of the traditional farming route, descent... Like, three, third-generation farmer, um, and then a couple newer, like, sort of neo-hippie, back-to-the-land farmers. Mm.

19
00:03:45.280 --> 00:03:58.950
And I think that piece was more optimistic, where mine was maybe a little more pessimistic. I don't know if mine was so pessimistic, but it was like, I think where I left the reader was that, uh...

20
00:03:58.960 --> 00:04:07.300
Well, actually, specifically, where I leave it is I talk about my parents trying to sell their farm and how it will be difficult for them to find somebody with the right mix of skills, value, and capital. Mm.

21
00:04:07.340 --> 00:04:19.070
And what I'm implying is you can't really... Nobody has all three, right? Pick two or even just one. Yeah. But I think the- I shoulda done a you pick two triangle graphic. A- So yeah. [laughs]... You Pick?

22
00:04:19.070 --> 00:04:24.440
Like the blueberries, You Pick two? Um, but- Yeah... but I think, but this whole bit, but this, uh, New York Times one,

23
00:04:25.480 --> 00:04:36.180
I think they find, they found people who had the capital and the value and were, like, very actively learning the skills. Yeah.

24
00:04:36.200 --> 00:04:42.880
But I think it also kind of prove that, proves that point where, like, you might have two, but you have to find the third. You might have the skills and the values.

25
00:04:43.660 --> 00:04:58.720
You're gonna have to find the capital, and that's gonna be very hard. Right. Also, like, this idea that farming is either a subsistence business for people born into it or the hobby of somebody after they become rich.

26
00:04:58.880 --> 00:05:00.160
Mm-hmm. Um- Yeah.

27
00:05:00.220 --> 00:05:11.750
One of the guys in this article was, like, a former financier in New York, and uh, yeah, made a bunch of money, and then could do this without the crushing- It's like Marie Antoinette being like, "Build me a small village- Mm-hmm...

28
00:05:11.770 --> 00:05:21.890
where I can pretend that I have sheep." [laughs] Yeah. But I under- Like, I think people are doing it out of deeply held values- Mm-hmm... and a desire to be closer to nature, and I don't judge that. No, not at all.

29
00:05:21.910 --> 00:05:31.540
I just think if... I mean, if those people were succeeding disproportionately, it could conceal a lot of the issues facing people doing it for subsistence, but they probably fail at the same rate, if not higher. Mm-hmm.

30
00:05:32.160 --> 00:05:36.760
Okay, your parents don't do soybeans. No. That is far from it. I feel like any- Yeah...

31
00:05:36.800 --> 00:05:46.320
I don't know the exact economics behind soybeans, but from what I understand, if you're doing soybeans, first, you're probably in the Midwest, and second, you're probably farming hundreds of acres.

32
00:05:46.660 --> 00:06:00.460
Well, the economics are China's supposed to buy them. They're not buying them as a retaliatory measure. And so they're buying Argentinian soybeans, but Argentina is still... The economy still is, is bad.

33
00:06:00.580 --> 00:06:13.932
So we're also simultaneously bailing Argentina out to prop up their-Um, more sort of capitalist president. Mm-hmm. And- De Lay, I believe his name is. Albanian... so we're basically subsidizing

34
00:06:14.872 --> 00:06:25.652
the soybeans that are being sold to China instead of our soybeans, and the government's gonna have to bail everyone out anyway. Sort of a beautiful own goal. It is an Ouroboros of stupidity.

35
00:06:25.812 --> 00:06:33.311
[laughs] I saw the, uh, the, that report where they sort of- I'm absolutely soy facing. You can't see this at home, listener. [laughs] I'm absolutely soy facing.

36
00:06:33.832 --> 00:06:44.292
They, they sniped a, a, a photo of the text message that I think who, Treasury Secretary, was getting from the Agriculture Secretary- Uh, yes, I saw this, yeah... basically laying all of this out.

37
00:06:44.732 --> 00:06:56.432
Um, but, I mean, it's been, this, all of this has been reported, I think. It was just, that was the crash out. Um, not great. Not great. Uh, yeah, I, I don't...

38
00:06:57.522 --> 00:07:05.962
Not that we have to go so deep into tariffs, and I don't know enough about this to speak eloquently about it, but I, I find it hard to believe that

39
00:07:07.192 --> 00:07:12.332
this isn't just going to end with, like, pie on face for a bunch of people.

40
00:07:12.392 --> 00:07:22.672
I, I guess the point is, is more about, like, a few specific people getting rich and not really about, like, re-energizing the manufacturing industry in America, right? Um, but yeah, I,

41
00:07:23.752 --> 00:07:34.982
I'm, I'm not saying anything new here, but I j- it just boggles my mind that we're, like, holding to these tariffs on soybean, uh, or, or just, like, these, these, these trade chaos.

42
00:07:34.982 --> 00:07:44.472
I would like for people who grow soybeans in this country to feel like they can vote their self-interest and that those self-interests would align with my interests. Mm-hmm.

43
00:07:44.572 --> 00:07:56.162
And I don't wanna be at odds with the people that grow soybeans in this country. [laughs] I'm always saying that. I'm always saying that. [laughs] 'Cause I think what they do is important- Yeah...

44
00:07:56.172 --> 00:08:11.612
and I'm sure they all think what I do is important, but, um, this was all, I do believe this was all foreseeable. I don't know. Um, it's, I don't, I don't know. I don't know if any of these tariffs are even real, so.

45
00:08:11.952 --> 00:08:16.572
Yeah. Uh- But this particular retaliatory measure is real, so. I, I was...

46
00:08:17.022 --> 00:08:30.352
I, I, I, um, 404 did this great story, uh, a m- a month or so ago about how the end of the de minimis exception is, like, hurting anybody with, like, a niche hobby who buys stuff on eBay, basically. Mm-hmm.

47
00:08:30.612 --> 00:08:40.912
And I, I was scrolling eBay the other day for, for, for Japanese ties, vintage Japanese [laughs] ties. Mm. No comment. Uh, no comment.

48
00:08:41.012 --> 00:08:51.402
Um, a friend was just in Japan and brought me back this nice tie, and I was like, "Oh, this is fun. I'm gonna look at more of these." So, uh, anyways, the, the, it was like- That's the W. David Marks activity.

49
00:08:52.112 --> 00:08:56.672
Uh, uh, that is- [laughs] Have him, tell him what you want and have him bring it when he comes for his book tour. Have him bring it. That's fair.

50
00:08:56.792 --> 00:09:07.742
Uh, but, uh, yeah, he, he, he can order, I can order it to his house [laughs] and he can bring it. Um, no, the point is, this tie was, like, $5, and then shipping was $250. Oh, my God, no.

51
00:09:07.742 --> 00:09:18.631
I understand that this is what they've done is, like, a bunch of these people in other countries that, you know, often are selling to the US, um, have just made the shipping cost of anything $250. [laughs] Serenity now.

52
00:09:18.702 --> 00:09:28.122
Mm-hmm. Serenity now. Um, yeah, well, I'm gearing up to do another zine with global contributors, and I, everyone gets two copies of the zine. Oh, no.

53
00:09:28.132 --> 00:09:38.522
But I'm like, "Who's gonna be the most expensive person to send two copies of the zine to?" I'm so excited to find out. 'Cause, like, even if you're sending it as a gift, that, it might get flagged. Yeah, we'll see.

54
00:09:38.572 --> 00:09:50.032
Certainly if, if, if, um, you know, the, if agents of the Postal Service are listening to this now. My postal office added, like, another big thing about not shipping perfume, and, like- Really?...

55
00:09:50.042 --> 00:09:57.092
I for sure have shipped perfume from there. Is that a thing? 'Cause it's an aerosol and it's, I, I have no idea. Yeah, you have to deny you're se- sending perfumes and aerosols.

56
00:09:57.132 --> 00:10:06.392
But let me tell you, I have shipped perfume in my life, and I have received perfume in my life, and- I have ordered, I have bought it online. Well, those people have a license. Um- Oh... I don't, but that's okay.

57
00:10:07.012 --> 00:10:23.242
Um, okay, well, the, the thing, the thing I wanted to bring up, um, related somewhat to the, that, that New York Times farm article, um, and really, and really mine, where it's like, you know, some of these VC-backed techno farms that were growing food weren't really...

58
00:10:23.312 --> 00:10:30.361
Like, that was never really what they were gonna make their money off of. What they were gonna make their money off of was tech, um, that they were using to grow their food. Mm-hmm.

59
00:10:30.372 --> 00:10:36.462
Specifically, like Square Roots have these container farms that have these systems. That was the Basil company. The Basil company, yeah. Mm-hmm.

60
00:10:36.852 --> 00:10:46.792
Um, and then somewhat related, uh, this New York Times article, there's people who, like, have a, um, like, a lodge that they rent out that you can go stay in, right?

61
00:10:46.852 --> 00:10:56.442
And maybe that makes more money than parts of the farm, or it's just a part of the overall revenue mix that makes it all work, right? Oh, mm-hmm. Um, mm-hmm. Or, like, weddings. Or weddings. A wedding venue.

62
00:10:56.452 --> 00:11:06.272
I bet some of them make money on weddings. Definitely. Certainly. Um, but- Do you have weddings on your farm? No. Are you gonna get married there? Uh, on my sister's farm. Oh, there you go.

63
00:11:06.712 --> 00:11:11.252
Yeah, there you go, but I'm not paying for that. Um- [laughs] Thank you to my loving sister.

64
00:11:11.712 --> 00:11:23.292
Um, no, but, so I read this piece by Doug Shapiro, media consultant, writer, theorist guy, um, called What If All Media Is Marketing Now, which I would agree.

65
00:11:23.432 --> 00:11:30.552
I mean, that's kind of what I do for a living with Creator Spotlight- I feel like that's all we talk about on this podcast... at Beehive. It's all [laughs] it's all we talk about. Um- Knock it up, Doug. No, sorry...

66
00:11:30.592 --> 00:11:31.522
but, um, okay- We'll hear him out...

67
00:11:31.522 --> 00:11:48.952
so th- there's like a long, it's a really long article and well-researched, uh, but he very graciously provides a TLDR at the beginning, which I will, [laughs] I will read one segment of this, which is, um, he's basically talking about, uh, how gen AI will oversaturate the market.

68
00:11:49.112 --> 00:12:02.072
It's gonna be impossible to monetize with advertising or subscriptions. Sure, something we do often talk about, as you say. Um, and I'm gonna read two bits of this quick. "What happens then? Here's a common pattern.

69
00:12:02.292 --> 00:12:11.532
When barriers collapse in a market, supply explodes, consumer price sensitivity increases, prices migrate toward marginal cost, and all the value shifts to the scarcest complements.

70
00:12:11.542 --> 00:12:18.512
This has happened in markets as diverse as food-"Stock trading, digital photography, PCs, consumer electronics, and many others.

71
00:12:18.552 --> 00:12:26.052
In all cases, the commoditized product becomes a loss leader, customer acquisition cost, or at best, marginally profitable and value shifts elsewhere.

72
00:12:26.092 --> 00:12:35.792
If the same pattern plays out in media, most content may cease to be a profit center. Instead, it will become top of funnel to something else. Media will become marketing. Last bit.

73
00:12:35.832 --> 00:12:45.282
To be clear, there's a difference between media sells marketing and media is marketing. Today, content is the product, and one way it monetizes is by renting out the attention it generates, selling advertising.

74
00:12:45.312 --> 00:12:52.732
In this new model, content is the cost, and the only sustainable profits will be for media companies to own the complements themselves. Or...

75
00:12:52.802 --> 00:13:04.172
And now, now I'm speaking, or, um, for the complements to own the media companies, if you will. I mean, yeah. And we see it with Semaphore, right? A large percentage of their business is events. Yeah.

76
00:13:04.412 --> 00:13:14.812
I was telling you off mic- The newsletter's free. Mm-hmm. Is it? They have... I think they have, like, um, a, like, a crazy high-ticket executive- Oh... cost newsletter.

77
00:13:14.912 --> 00:13:21.382
But, like, I'm subscribed to their, their daily, their tech newsletter, their media newsletter. These are all free. There's no paid version. I'm gonna... While you...

78
00:13:21.472 --> 00:13:23.712
Wait, while you, you have a point to make, I'm gonna look at the free and paid part.

79
00:13:23.772 --> 00:13:31.362
Well, I was telling you before we started about the piece in New York Magazine, I think by Charlotte Klein, about Cultured Magazine and, like- Mm-hmm...

80
00:13:32.312 --> 00:13:46.192
its reputation was always as, um, almost like a vanity project, although they've had advertisers like Chanel since the beginning. It was sort of like a Hamptons art mag was the reputation. Um,

81
00:13:47.332 --> 00:13:59.872
like, I feel like they haven't always paid freelancers particularly well. Um, but apparently they've had, like, in recent years, a bit of a renaissance. Mm-hmm. They've hired some really smart critics.

82
00:14:00.752 --> 00:14:11.902
They have, like, Cult one hundred franchise that they did at the Guggenheim, um, that's bringing advertisers in. And I think that they have, like, a Cultured Club- Mm-hmm...

83
00:14:12.292 --> 00:14:15.632
which is like a membership club, which is sort of what Doug is talking about, which made me think of this.

84
00:14:16.552 --> 00:14:28.132
I will say, like, I think this is an amazing business story for your [lips smack] magazine to have been around for more than ten years and then, like, eventually achieve more profitability

85
00:14:29.312 --> 00:14:42.852
and really, like, crack whatever the ideal, um, split between various revenue streams is. I will say I could not tell you a single thing that they've ever published. And

86
00:14:44.172 --> 00:14:56.122
I don't think it has to be either/or, but, um, yeah, that's... It makes it hard for me to be like, "Okay, here's the replicable model," where I'm like, "What is the taste of this?" Yeah.

87
00:14:56.122 --> 00:15:11.312
"What is the point of view of this, this magazine?" Um, maybe it's not for me, but I care about everything that they cover. So, um, I don't know. I think, like, it is an example though, like, if you...

88
00:15:11.352 --> 00:15:21.412
If it had the reputation of being a vanity mag, it was sort of like, vanity magazines are thought of as marketing for the person that started it or the company- Mm-hmm... that started it. Um,

89
00:15:22.772 --> 00:15:35.072
now it's like, well, all media is marketing, so I've definitely heard that thrown around less. Um, but it seems like- It's a given... the substance of the business now is, like, these experiences perhaps.

90
00:15:35.932 --> 00:15:48.822
Um, and advertisers are interested in sponsoring them. Yeah. I mean, I was looking, I think it was today or yesterday as we speak, it was published, uh, Hellgate's annual report, which is- Mm-hmm...

91
00:15:49.292 --> 00:15:54.852
um, I don't wanna, I don't wanna give away the whole thing here because it, it is behind the paywall, but two details I think are worth bringing up.

92
00:15:54.992 --> 00:16:02.322
One, they are mostly monetized through paid subscribers, which is sort of like a refutement of this conversation we're having, right? Mm-hmm.

93
00:16:02.812 --> 00:16:12.292
Um, they said that they have nine thousand paid subscribers now as, as of the end of September twenty twenty-five, which is a sixty-nine percent increase from their previous annual, annual report.

94
00:16:12.452 --> 00:16:22.682
They've been active for three years now. Um, and they have seventy thousand dollars in monthly recurring revenue, which is up sixty-six percent from last year. At this time last year, they were at forty-two thousand.

95
00:16:23.292 --> 00:16:35.691
Um, and again, they are primarily funded by subscribers. They're also funded by philanthropy, ads, and public funding. But ads, they only sold twenty thousand dollars worth of ads over the last twelve months.

96
00:16:36.012 --> 00:16:43.752
Um, so I think, I guess why I bring this up is, like, the question of, like, when is media not marketing and, like, now and in the future?

97
00:16:43.792 --> 00:16:51.952
Like, 'cause, you know, I think Doug Shapiro's piece is more like this is a transition that's happening. Um, but I f- I feel like something like Hellgate will always,

98
00:16:53.392 --> 00:17:07.432
you know, will always be able to make money in this way because people want to support it because it's, they're doing reporting that they won't get elsewhere and/or people want to, want this thing to exist, and there's, like, that, that patronage aspect to media.

99
00:17:07.552 --> 00:17:23.192
I know, um, you know, my parents have long been, like, local radio station supporters, and when all that media funding was cut by the government at the beginning of the year, they upped their increase by, like, a hundred bucks a year or something like that.

100
00:17:23.292 --> 00:17:41.282
Um, so I think this, like, this point that all media is marketing, like, I think this kind of, like, local media or, like, you know- Local media has the... Is I think people perceive it as a public good- Yeah...

101
00:17:41.292 --> 00:17:57.472
in a way that magazines are not. Um, I think magazines, like, to draw on a point that maybe, I actually forget where I even made this point, if it was on this podcast or on Boys Club live stream. But, like,

102
00:17:58.432 --> 00:18:11.032
magazines, I think, do act as a check on the worst consumer impulses of the sort of, like, uncultured class. Mm-hmm.

103
00:18:11.112 --> 00:18:24.068
Um, and maybe we sort of, like, that's, we kinda forgot that until we lost it, that, like, magazines are supposed to, like... In the same way that, like, political journalism will, will check-Power.

104
00:18:24.748 --> 00:18:36.608
Cultural magazines check the impulses of people that have cultural power. Um, to say like, "If you have a, a weird wedding, we're gonna make fun of you." If you [laughs] Yeah You know what I mean?

105
00:18:36.668 --> 00:18:45.948
Like, "If you're driving a weird car, we're gonna make fun of you." [laughs] Um, or if you know you're buying a new car and your, your company's being sued for discrimination, we're gonna make fun of you. Mm-hmm.

106
00:18:46.008 --> 00:19:00.428
So there is that like... It's not a public good in the same way that reporting on campaign finance is, but there is some important dynamic to, um, doing almost like a controlled burn of what's happening in culture.

107
00:19:00.448 --> 00:19:11.808
And without that, like, platforms do the opposite, right? Like Paul Graham Mm-hmm Everyone knows Paul Graham is my emotional support libertarian. Um, [laughs] or my- A famous investor...

108
00:19:11.838 --> 00:19:21.838
emotional support centrist, I think is what I called him. Mm. You know, he's like... It's, I don't know where he's been for the last two years, but yesterday he was like, "Something's deeply wrong with Twitter."

109
00:19:21.848 --> 00:19:35.018
And it's like, yeah dude, because I have a couple of accounts where I'm not following a lot of people- Mm... including dirt, so I kinda get just like the raw whatever anyone's getting, and it is bad. Yeah.

110
00:19:35.048 --> 00:19:50.058
Um, they are deliberately showing the most divisive stuff. They are deliberately showing very cherry-picked, um, [lip smack] racial crimes, violence, from both sides. Mm-hmm. And it's not good.

111
00:19:50.728 --> 00:20:04.168
And so you have magazines which, yes, there is sensationalism. You know, obviously, like Enquirer or stuff that you, like in the grocery store with like, you know, JonBenét Ramsey: She's Alive. Like yeah, not that stuff.

112
00:20:04.248 --> 00:20:21.618
[laughs] But like, like a Vanity Fair. Yeah. Um, obviously they wanna get attention, but they want to control the cultural conversation. Um, not let it be dominated by people with the most money. And platforms,

113
00:20:22.628 --> 00:20:34.388
they... I, I think the, the incentive is much different. Um, it's success by division, where division breeds engagement. Mm-hmm. And

114
00:20:35.328 --> 00:20:45.648
I think that's messed up, and I think people are starting to realize like, "Hey, like we've sort of lost something here," and can't put their finger on it. Um, they see the media as part of it.

115
00:20:45.728 --> 00:20:50.257
They see the media as sowing division, but we have so much force now.

116
00:20:50.268 --> 00:21:05.188
Are we talk- Wait, so are we talking about like, um, th- to focus on like how what succeeds is polarizing, do you think that is exclusive to Twitter, or is this true of like Instagram, of TikTok, of Blue Sky, say, of YouTube?

117
00:21:05.288 --> 00:21:17.798
Uh, I think TikTok's pretty messed up. I think Instagram and YouTube have more checks in place. Mm-hmm. I know Threads you can't even talk about politics, right? Yeah. Mm-hmm.

118
00:21:18.468 --> 00:21:22.118
I think all of their numbers are made up, though. [laughs] I, I agree. I know, but I would, I would agree.

119
00:21:22.118 --> 00:21:29.488
Because I have been, I've been like, I think I've been creating Threads against my will, to be honest- [laughs]... 'cause sometimes I forget to like untoggle- You've been creating them?... when I post on Instagram.

120
00:21:29.498 --> 00:21:37.068
I've, I don't think I've ever created a Thread. Well, you might be- I do-... without knowing it. [laughs] They, they get me sometimes, though, when, when it's, [laughs]

121
00:21:37.088 --> 00:21:44.748
when, when they, uh, you know, in your Instagram feed when they like show a Thread. Yeah. It'll be like some stupid, usually like a soccer thing.

122
00:21:44.848 --> 00:21:52.598
Um- Yeah, so if you click that by accident, you're probably in their numbers as a Threads user. Certainly. Certainly I am. I probably open it once a day in that way, [laughs] and then I immediately close it.

123
00:21:52.598 --> 00:21:57.908
I don't blame them for trying to create an alternative, just like I don't blame Substack for trying to create- Yeah... an alternative.

124
00:21:57.948 --> 00:22:06.488
Like my issue is replacing something that was fulfilling a very different function- Mm-hmm... and then trying to convince everyone that this is better.

125
00:22:07.448 --> 00:22:24.668
Even people who don't like media or the idea of media as a fourth estate, if you ask them to come up with thought experiments for how to solve for the trustlessness of information in society, they will basically come up with the media again.

126
00:22:25.158 --> 00:22:31.898
Yeah. They will reinvent it from scratch. They'll be like, "Well, we should call people- Same as you do, different as you don't... and ask them what actually happened." And it's like- Yeah...

127
00:22:31.938 --> 00:22:40.988
wow, yeah, we do, we, we should call people and ask them what actually happened. Imagine that. I also think, I don't know if there's any books about this. I feel like there must be.

128
00:22:41.028 --> 00:22:56.468
Like I would be very interested in the history of the opinion page and the opinion section- Mm... and how it has both benefited and taken away from the role of the newspaper. Because everyone has turned against

129
00:22:57.528 --> 00:23:02.548
this idea of the op-ed board or a newspaper- Yeah... um, making a presidential endorsement.

130
00:23:02.618 --> 00:23:11.188
At the same time, all you hear from people who are interested in sort of like new decentralized media is all about parasociality, it's all about commentary, it's all about opinion.

131
00:23:11.828 --> 00:23:24.928
And so if you, if you can't graft that onto the traditional news product without destroying the credibility of the traditional news product, like where does that leave the news? Mm-hmm.

132
00:23:25.128 --> 00:23:36.647
Um, and can the news and, can the news and opinion exist separately, and have they ever existed separately? I, so I, I, I, I just tried to see if there's a book on the [laughs] history of the, of the opinion section.

133
00:23:36.668 --> 00:23:38.098
Well, we're gonna ask ChatGPT.

134
00:23:38.168 --> 00:23:47.108
And, and maybe there is, but I, but I did, I specifically searched for, 'cause I, I figured this would be the best proxy for it, if there was a history of, a book on the history of The New York Times opinion section.

135
00:23:47.448 --> 00:23:54.538
Mm-hmm. And what I did find is this piece, um, from 2021 by Kathleen Kingsbury, the opinions editor- Yeah...

136
00:23:54.568 --> 00:24:05.608
of said Times, um, about why The New York Times is retiring the term op-ed, which if I knew this had ever happened, I, I did not know. But, um, just- Yeah, I didn't know about that.

137
00:24:05.668 --> 00:24:07.958
You're just telling me that for the first time. [laughs] You're telling me that for the first time.

138
00:24:07.988 --> 00:24:18.148
[laughs] Um, but so okay, to scan a few details here, um, the first op-ed page in The New York Times was on September 21st, 1970.

139
00:24:18.788 --> 00:24:31.952
Um, it was so named because it appeared opposite the editorial page, and not, as many still believe, because it would offer views contrary to the paper's.Um, inevitably it, it would Hmm... do that too. Okay.

140
00:24:32.052 --> 00:24:34.462
Um, "It's time to change the name. The reason is simple.

141
00:24:34.852 --> 00:24:46.152
In the digital world, in which millions of Times readers absorb the paper's journalism online, there is no geographical op-ed, just as there is no geographical ed for op-ed to be opposite to.

142
00:24:46.652 --> 00:24:54.012
It is a relic of an older age and an older print newspaper design." So 50 years later, they're retiring it.

143
00:24:54.082 --> 00:25:04.062
"Editorials will still be called editorials, but the articles written by outside writers will be known as guest essays, a title that will appear prominently above the headline." Hmm.

144
00:25:04.092 --> 00:25:15.221
So I guess that, I mean, to, um, there's, there's a little bit more. It's not actually a very long piece here. Um, the geography of the public square is being contested. In many ways that square is more representative.

145
00:25:15.452 --> 00:25:27.432
Everyone has an outlet from Facebook to Substack to Twitter. This is 2021. Those are different things then. Um, this is, that is to be welcomed. What is disparaging though are voices...

146
00:25:27.532 --> 00:25:32.361
are spaces where voices can be heard and respected. Okay. Um, enough of this.

147
00:25:32.452 --> 00:25:42.012
But w- I guess what's interesting to me here is that, um, that, yeah, it comes from this context where it's like, here's the facts, here's the editorial, and then here's people maybe railing against it- Mm-hmm...

148
00:25:42.212 --> 00:25:56.491
j- just some opinion that isn't necessarily, like, the truth. Um, and then the, like, the make your own page of, of the, of internet media consumption kind of- Grok, is this true? Grok, is this true? Um, Grok ed.

149
00:25:57.292 --> 00:26:05.412
Oh, they're making a Grokipedia. Did you see that? No. Yeah. I hate that. Attempt. There's an attempt. [lip smacks] Um, d- I, I also read that

150
00:26:06.572 --> 00:26:13.432
the government signed some contract, federal government signed a contract with Grok. Sure. I don't know. Why not?

151
00:26:13.932 --> 00:26:23.952
Um, anyways, speaking of, of, of magazines, I got the Metrograph, second issue of the Metrograph magazine this weekend. Oh, bummer. They offered me one of those. I forgot to respond. It's really beautiful- Damn... right?

152
00:26:23.992 --> 00:26:35.572
Well, it is nice. Yeah, it's really nice. Um, which I, I think it costs, like, 20 bucks. I don't know. I got it at Iconic Magazines on Kenmare. I think that's the name of that one. Um, there's only one ad.

153
00:26:35.612 --> 00:26:46.292
I think I have some friends in there. There's only one ad. Is it for Metrograph? No, it's for Hermès on the back. The... Okay, so they just sold the back cover to Hermès and said, "That's enough of that." Yeah.

154
00:26:46.412 --> 00:26:49.502
No, I'm, I'm- [laughs]... flipping through. I'm looking for more ads. I'm not seeing any more ads.

155
00:26:49.512 --> 00:26:59.912
Well, I was gonna tell you, so when you were talking about Hellgate, um, so that's, like, obviously more paid subscribers than I have- Mm-hmm... but I've already sold more than $20,000 worth of ads for next year. Mm-hmm.

156
00:27:00.022 --> 00:27:11.192
So it's just very different, like, the models and, like, I think, like, everything that I've said, like, in my essay about the future of media as a bank, like, there's obviously carve-outs to that. Like- Yeah...

157
00:27:11.201 --> 00:27:19.792
Midcoast Villager is a great example, um, that- Oh, yeah. Mm-hmm... they are doing amazing, right? And I think what they're doing is super interesting. That's...

158
00:27:19.992 --> 00:27:29.452
People are always gonna view spending on something like that differently from spending on a Vogue or- Which is an indulgence as opposed to a necessity.

159
00:27:30.282 --> 00:27:43.342
[lip smacks] It's an indulgence, but an indulgence that plays an important role in our cultural ecosystem. Mm-hmm. And I think that's the thing that everyone's trying to drill down on. Um- Yeah. Wait, I- But-...

160
00:27:43.342 --> 00:27:53.522
actually have something here. Um, so- Okay... at, at, at the, uh [lip smacks] we were both at On Air, the Archival- Yeah, I was there-... conference... in the morning. You were there for more of the afternoon.

161
00:27:53.732 --> 00:28:02.772
Well, okay, so the, the final, uh, talk- Shout out to Ari, by the way. That was ridiculous, like- Friend of the pod, former guest, former boss... uh, down to the last detail, you guys. This was a cult.

162
00:28:03.512 --> 00:28:11.752
Uh, it was like a cult activation. Okay, wait. So we, we should, we should talk about all the details and, and how good a job Ari did, um, flatter his, his ego here.

163
00:28:12.132 --> 00:28:21.252
But, uh, so last, the last talk of the day was- Mm-hmm... Shane Hegde, our CEO, and Nicholas Thompson, CEO- Mm-hmm... o- of The Atlantic.

164
00:28:21.872 --> 00:28:35.952
Um, and Macy Gilliam, um, friend of the pod, uh, from Morning Brew famously, she asked him a really good question. And- Was she on Creator? S- She, she been on Creator Spotlight? Uh, no, but soon to come. Okay.

165
00:28:35.992 --> 00:28:42.672
Okay, okay. Yeah, that's- We, we did, we, we did discuss that... we were sitting with her. We were- Mm-hmm... we were all sitting in the same row, right? We were, yeah. Yeah. Well, I was right behind you guys.

166
00:28:42.892 --> 00:28:47.652
Um- Macy had a very cool plaid outfit on, guys, so. Yeah, she did. Yeah. Um, okay.

167
00:28:47.812 --> 00:29:05.102
Anyways, she asked a great question, um, that was basically, what do you make of the fact that so much low-quality information and even propaganda is freely available online, whereas something that is produced, that's very highly produced and more rigorously fact-checked, e- et cetera, like The Atlantic- Mm-hmm...

168
00:29:05.132 --> 00:29:11.092
that is all behind a paywall and harder to access? The gist of her question. Mm-hmm. Um, and Mr.

169
00:29:11.372 --> 00:29:21.452
Thompson gave a pretty good answer, I would say, where, you know, i- i- he's, he's basically saying, like, "Look, we have a bottom line. To produce that costs money.

170
00:29:22.052 --> 00:29:25.772
Subscriptions are the, one of the best ways for us to get that money."

171
00:29:26.072 --> 00:29:34.772
But, and I think this is the, the part, again, longer answer, but this is the part that stuck with me, is that they've been experimenting with, like, what's the loosest paywall we can do- Mm-hmm...

172
00:29:34.782 --> 00:29:40.572
that still drives people to sign up and still allows us to make enough money to keep producing this journalism.

173
00:29:40.592 --> 00:29:49.272
And I think there was a lot of, like, AI conversation, and he was talking about how there's some way they're implementing AI to test the loo- the loo- like, the loosest possible paywall. Mm-hmm.

174
00:29:49.432 --> 00:29:58.832
Um, which I guess is, is technology beyond what I'm working with in the day-to-day. Um- The Atlantic stable coin. [laughs] Yeah, The Atlantic stable coin. Um, yeah, I don't know.

175
00:29:58.992 --> 00:30:09.512
I, but I thought that was, it was a really good question, um, and I, I thought it was a compelling answer. I hadn't really heard somebody talking about that. It is a really good question. I think it is...

176
00:30:09.732 --> 00:30:16.402
I do think people are, are circling back on some of the ideas around, like, early experiments with micro payments and trying- Mm...

177
00:30:16.422 --> 00:30:24.972
to figure out whether AI is the thing that could remove the friction that was making them tough. 'Cause I, like, I love a metered paywall where you put in your email- Mm-hmm...

178
00:30:25.012 --> 00:30:39.102
to read the article, but you can only do that once. Mm. So what can you do-Other times, um- Companies have been- I don't know 'cause I was sitting next to Ben Dietz, friend of the pod- Mm-hmm. The pod...

179
00:30:39.102 --> 00:30:52.732
um, at the Air event, and he flipped his phone over to show me something in Retail Dive, which was like, "Birkenstocks is doing so well, they're opening another clog factory." Wow. And I was like, "Where? Where?"

180
00:30:53.592 --> 00:31:01.632
And it was a Bloomberg article, so he clicked through, and he hit the paywall, but it looked like you could do Apple Pay. Mm. So I was like, "Buy the..." I was like, "Buy the article."

181
00:31:02.172 --> 00:31:10.072
[laughs] And so he's trying to, like, double-click for Apple Pay 'cause I was like- Yeah... "If that works, that's sick. I didn't know that they were doing that." Yeah, that'd be awesome.

182
00:31:10.112 --> 00:31:19.422
He was trying to double-click just like you do at the fricking subway. And like, 'cause you only... You just have to have your phone unlocked to swipe in now in New York City subway. Mm-hmm.

183
00:31:19.472 --> 00:31:27.122
And it didn't work, and I, and I was like... I literally said to him, "Ben, solving that, what just happened to you, is my life's work." Mm.

184
00:31:27.132 --> 00:31:36.612
Because if you had been able to pull that up and just double-click and pay on Apple Pay for that article- That's clam... that's clam. Clam, excuse me. That's clam. Like- Yeah... everyone should be able to do that.

185
00:31:36.692 --> 00:31:42.192
And there's this new thing, um, that Cloudflare and Base are working on together called the 402 Protocol,

186
00:31:43.192 --> 00:31:51.012
where they're trying to, um, create a system where AI agents that are crawling the web for information are kind of automatically paying as they go.

187
00:31:51.812 --> 00:32:02.402
Uh, but my argument is there's always gonna need to be some sort of user interface as well- Mm-hmm... where, like, we can see what other people are paying for. Like, if I'm doing a search through an LLM- Mm...

188
00:32:02.472 --> 00:32:20.382
I'm definitely happy to know that every, uh, every source that became an input for that search is being compensated, but I think that there's another piece of the way people understand their taste that, that requires some sort of user interface for us to be- That requires agency, if you will.

189
00:32:20.432 --> 00:32:28.852
Agency, yeah, and activity in those decisions- Mm-hmm... even if some of them are augmented by a programmable wallet or an AI agent working on our behalf.

190
00:32:29.402 --> 00:32:41.792
Um, 'cause then people are gonna be like, "I wanna pay more for the stuff-" Mm. "... that I really care about-" Yeah... "beyond the baseline." Um, and that's where that secondary market for AI agents comes in of, like,

191
00:32:43.392 --> 00:32:49.432
maybe I just wanna subscribe to the taste of somebody else, and I wanna pay them- Mm-hmm... as the intermediary.

192
00:32:49.912 --> 00:33:01.061
One thing, okay, um, related here, I often think about how with newsletter paywalls, which newsletter paywalls, I think, are so much better than some of the paywalls of the past, where it used to be very easy to get around, say- Mm...

193
00:33:01.092 --> 00:33:08.452
a New Yorker paywall, um- Mm... w- in various ways. Uh, one of my favorite techniques was, uh, sometimes this still works for some websites.

194
00:33:08.532 --> 00:33:17.212
If you load it, load the page, and immediately click the X button up by the URL to stop it loading, sometimes it stops it from loading the paywall. It's a little intel for you.

195
00:33:17.632 --> 00:33:29.172
Um, but, uh, but Beehiiv, Substack, Ghost, any of these m- modern newsletter platforms basically, like, are pretty good at, like, lo... Like, there's not really a way to get around the paywall.

196
00:33:29.212 --> 00:33:38.712
You just simply have to pay. There's no archive.com whatever. Um, but if you're a paying customer of a newsletter product,

197
00:33:39.612 --> 00:33:52.472
and you've been paying for a while, and then you stop paying, you still have all of those articles, all that content archived in your email in as much as your, you know, Gmail is an, is an archive and not something that is itself unstable, right?

198
00:33:52.492 --> 00:33:55.772
Mm-hmm. Like, but you could download those emails. You could put them on a hard drive, whatever.

199
00:33:55.872 --> 00:34:07.092
Um, so, uh, like, in the context of, let's say, paying $2, a dollar, whatever it is for a Bloomberg article, do you think it would also archive it in that way?

200
00:34:07.132 --> 00:34:15.872
Like, would it s- would it email you a, a copy of it, and then you kind of, like, have bought this paper? I mean, it should. Like,

201
00:34:16.812 --> 00:34:28.962
I think some of the benefit of having AI paywalls is, like, you can have, like, really specific upsells, right? Mm. Like, in this instance, it's the friction that was the problem. Like, he was- Yeah...

202
00:34:28.972 --> 00:34:35.492
willing to pay $1.99 while I was billing him, but- [laughs]... like, it wasn't speaking to the Apple Pay. Like, if it was- Yeah...

203
00:34:35.512 --> 00:34:46.592
speaking to the Apple Pay, like, if you remove that friction, then you can do really interesting stuff. Like, maybe Ben is getting this deal that's like, "Pay a dollar for this article or $5 for the next six months."

204
00:34:48.042 --> 00:35:01.792
"Oh my God- Mm... great deal. I'm just gonna pay five." Yeah. Like, but I'm getting a deal that's like, "Put in your email for free or pay $2 to read this article." And that, they, they could be offering through AI

205
00:35:02.892 --> 00:35:19.612
150 different paywall deals at the same time. That is smart business. The only not s- the only stupid business is stuff that is not making people pay for stuff. [laughs] You know? Like, right? Yeah. That's what I think.

206
00:35:20.182 --> 00:35:37.492
[upbeat music] There was something else. Oh, well, okay, so Danny and I also t- kind of treated it like a, a meeting about creative complaint. Mm-hmm. So we kept, like, running away to a corner to brainstorm.

207
00:35:37.932 --> 00:35:48.172
[laughs] Yeah. Um, but we're really excited, so we're, we're turning "Ick" into a podcast called Creative Complaint, and currently working on getting the art and music set for that.

208
00:35:48.272 --> 00:36:00.452
Um, but Danny's gonna be hosting, and- Mm... I, I'm honestly shocked that we didn't think of this before because the idea of being able to come on and talk about stuff that you don't like is so compelling.

209
00:36:01.412 --> 00:36:12.882
One of the things that was a challenge for us, though, is I didn't wanna use the word hate in the tagline of the show because I feel like there's so much hate in the political environment right now- Mm...

210
00:36:12.962 --> 00:36:21.562
that I don't wanna contribute to it, even if it's just, like, the stuff that we're talking about that we hate is not people. It's behaviors and stuff. Yeah.

211
00:36:21.562 --> 00:36:25.792
So that was something that we had to work around because obviously hate gets people's attention,

212
00:36:26.792 --> 00:36:43.444
and the tagline we ended up coming up with was, I believe, um-Taste told through distaste Mm So as a result of that, Ben has been referring to Creative Complaint as Distasteland. [laughs] Distasteland. That's good.

213
00:36:43.544 --> 00:36:56.164
[laughs] That's good. I think if we did that, that would be too much, and I do like the- Right... the repetition of Creative Complaint. Um, I also think, like, Dani... So Creative Complaint is Dani's podcast.

214
00:36:56.264 --> 00:37:06.244
We're distributing it at least through the end of the year. Mm-hmm. But it allows her to potentially take it with her, just like you might do someday with Creator Spotlight. Like- Yeah...

215
00:37:06.304 --> 00:37:18.824
if she needed to, and she could also potentially expand it to be more about the creative process. Um, you know, she could be the Rick Rubin of [laughs] talking about stuff that you distaste. Mm-hmm. Um,

216
00:37:19.964 --> 00:37:32.474
and so I liked that flexibility too. Like, this is just not, like, open mic for haters. This is, like, getting into, like, well, why does the stuff that bother, bother, bothers us [laughs] bother us? Um- So like therapy?

217
00:37:33.964 --> 00:37:40.454
Yeah, like therapy. Mm. You know, we have another podcast coming that's a lot more like therapy- Well-... but I can't reveal details... we'll keep that one under wraps for now. It's under wraps for now.

218
00:37:40.484 --> 00:37:48.744
This is an exclusive. That's, that's yet to be scooped. Uh- Yes... actually, I don't know, it might have been scooped already by the time- Um... you hear this. [laughs] I didn't give it to Mark Stenberg.

219
00:37:48.764 --> 00:38:00.494
[laughs] Mm, okay. I spread my scoops around. I'm very generous. Mm-hmm. That's, that's really sustainable of you- It's like mulch... for the media environment or something. You have to spread it- Like mulch...

220
00:38:00.504 --> 00:38:10.684
across the whole garden bed. Love mulch. I love mulch. [laughs] Mulch smells so good. Manure smells so bad. Make that- Yeah... more sense. Y- You know, um,

221
00:38:11.844 --> 00:38:23.174
I'll exclusively, exclusively reveal I do have a nostalgic sense for the [laughs] smell of manure. Do you... You're on Fragrance Go, like, it's not supposed to smell like manure. The, uh...

222
00:38:23.244 --> 00:38:27.644
Well, especially, it was, like, um, my high school- I'm pulling it up right now...

223
00:38:27.684 --> 00:38:39.404
my high school, uh, n- uh, it's kind of, like, on this hill above the, the bottoms is what you call it in the town where I'm from, which is, like, the, the area, like, between town and the ocean that's, like, the water table's really high.

224
00:38:39.484 --> 00:38:50.104
So it's, like, pastureland and stuff. Yeah. And so sometimes when the wind was right, you get out of class and, [laughs] and it sm- just reeks of manure. Um, but yeah.

225
00:38:50.114 --> 00:39:01.214
Um, similar thing, but for driving through Pennsylvania on the way to Ohio. Mm. There's a pig stretch, and let me tell you, you do not wanna stop there. Um, do you know about this?

226
00:39:01.264 --> 00:39:12.244
I just, I just put in manure as a note in Fragrance Go just to see what would come up, and do you know about this perfume Paddock from Hermes, speaking of Hermes? Uh, certainly I do not. All right.

227
00:39:12.624 --> 00:39:22.604
The notes: hay, carrot seeds, amber, and grass. But I think somebody must have used the word manure in their... Oh, I see, I see. Okay.

228
00:39:23.024 --> 00:39:33.624
So they're talking about how this was inspired by some sort of, um, equestrian event that Hermes is involved in, but they left the manure scent out of the perfume itself. Hmm. Okay.

229
00:39:33.684 --> 00:39:46.504
Oh, a thing I just remembered from Shane's talk with Nicholas Thompson at the end of the Air event, uh, he was talking, or somebody, I think somebody had asked... No, no, no, this was before somebody asked this question.

230
00:39:46.544 --> 00:39:54.224
Anyways, uh, he was talking about, like, the, the AI race, the AI war between the US and China- Mm...

231
00:39:54.234 --> 00:40:07.524
um, and had this way of framing it, it, in terms of, like, look, like, if, if China is purported to win the AI, the AI war or vice versa, the US, like, what do you think is gonna happen the day before they, like, figure out AGI?

232
00:40:07.924 --> 00:40:16.724
Like, the one country is going to bomb the other, right? Like, if it's really this thing that's, like, world-eating and world-ending, like- He said that? Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

233
00:40:16.834 --> 00:40:21.384
'Cause I mean, he was like, "It's the logical, it's the logical thing." If AGI is really gonna, like...

234
00:40:21.484 --> 00:40:31.033
is the key to, like, winning everything and becoming super rich, whatever, if one country is about to figure it out, then the other company will just, [laughs] or the other country will just bomb them.

235
00:40:31.564 --> 00:40:36.644
Um, and then he was, you know, walking it back, like, okay, from there, like, what do you think is gonna happen one year before?

236
00:40:36.724 --> 00:40:56.944
So I, I don't, I don't remember, like, if he gave quite a conclusion on this, but what I got from it was that, like, it's inevitable that, like, neither country will, like, win this AI war as such because they will, like- Well, he's extrapolating based on what was the same thing that happened with nuclear weapons, right?

237
00:40:57.004 --> 00:41:12.284
Yeah. If somebody's about to have a nuclear weapon you don't want them to have, you bomb them- Mm... with nuclear weapons. Yeah. But in an all-out scenario, it's not that, it's not that clear cut, right? Yeah.

238
00:41:12.324 --> 00:41:14.064
He also said, uh, he was at some

239
00:41:15.344 --> 00:41:26.664
conference or something in Switzerland, and he'd brought his 17-year-old son, and they were having lunch with some, like, big AI scholar guy, some guy, um, who is a big wig teacher or something at some university.

240
00:41:27.024 --> 00:41:31.064
Um- Mm... and anyways, like, hi- his son asked the guy, was like, "Well, I'm about to go to college.

241
00:41:31.544 --> 00:41:43.604
What, which college should I pick, or like, what should I study in college if, if we're taking for granted that AGI will soon be a thing?" Um, and he recounted the guy saying, like, "Oh, just go to a party school.

242
00:41:43.644 --> 00:41:47.264
Like, don't, don't worry. Just go to a party school. Enjoy your time."

243
00:41:47.344 --> 00:42:00.324
Like, which I, I don't know if this, if this guy's politics or, like, stance on, on AI is that, like, oh, it's gonna be this abundance thing, and, like, work is gonna be over, which I certainly don't believe. Um- Mm.

244
00:42:00.964 --> 00:42:08.714
But it was, I don't know, I guess it was just kind of pithy. I mean, I think go to any school and turn it into a party school. Mm-hmm. That's that important to you. That's kind of what you're supposed to do.

245
00:42:08.714 --> 00:42:20.964
Any school could be a party school, yeah. Yeah. If you're not lame. [laughs] Well, I wanted to tell you about this other piece that I have curated on Clone right now. Mm. I... It's from the MIT Press Reader, which

246
00:42:22.064 --> 00:42:30.804
I don't know if that's- I don't know if I've ever read her. Yeah. Well, I know what MIT Press is. Yeah. I've got some of their works. I guess this is what their online presence is called. Um,

247
00:42:31.884 --> 00:42:48.720
it's this guy Daniel Temkin-He's the author of 44 Esolangs: The Art of Esoteric Code, and the piece is called The Hacker Folk Art of Esoteric Coding. Hmm. Um, he's basically talking about folk...

248
00:42:48.760 --> 00:43:03.800
Like, it's kind of like the outsider art and folk art equivalent of programs where some of them have appli- actually been implemented, and they're almost like inside jokes among programmers where it's like code as more of like performance art, but within the environment.

249
00:43:03.860 --> 00:43:14.470
So it's not like performance art, um, in the sense of like making a consumer app that only sends the word yo. It's like something that you could only understand if you were also a coder- Mm-hmm...

250
00:43:14.470 --> 00:43:26.450
or if somebody explains the concept to you. And then others are just like kind of ideas. So like you know how Sol LeWitt, his artwork was, um, instructions for the artwork. For wall drawings and such. So anyone- Yeah...

251
00:43:26.450 --> 00:43:38.480
could do the wall drawing. Yeah. So it's kind of the code equivalent of that. And he talks about this coding language that I have actually known about for a bit and been interested by, um, for obvious reasons.

252
00:43:38.560 --> 00:43:50.700
So this is t- I, I'm not 100% sure on like what the definition of esolang is. I think it's like- No, I'm not too sure... I'm guessing it means co- code as language. Okay. Mm-hmm. So one of...

253
00:43:50.740 --> 00:44:01.620
The first one, the first esolang I fell in love with, he says, was Piet, which is named for Piet Mondrian, and, um, okay, so it's pronounced Peet. I'm obviously- Peet... pronouncing that wrong. Mm-hmm. Sorry.

254
00:44:01.640 --> 00:44:14.820
Like the bottom. Um, and Piet programs are written as a progression of colors in orthogonally pixelated images resembling mosaics or lo-fi graphics. Um, so I just think that's so cool.

255
00:44:15.310 --> 00:44:27.980
I really am so interested in, as a non-technical person, the mixing of code and culture and code and artwork and all the possibilities there, and I really enjoyed reading that.

256
00:44:28.320 --> 00:44:38.850
Um, it made me think like, I should learn to code just so I can get all these- Yeah... inside jokes. You know, I did- Five Coding's not gonna give you that... Five Coding's not gonna give you that. I, I did

257
00:44:39.900 --> 00:44:51.720
computer science like 101 or 102 or whatever- Mm... in, in school. And what I... It was fun, and sometimes I, I think back on, on what could've been. I wouldn't have to be podcasting, right? I'd be, I'd be rich maybe.

258
00:44:51.780 --> 00:45:04.630
Uh, probably not. But what I remember is like the one assignment I remember is like making a flag and making it wave- Hmm. Ah... in like C++ or something. Somebody who's listening- Mm...

259
00:45:04.630 --> 00:45:11.780
to this is like, "That's not how you do that." But, um, but yeah, I think- [laughs]... I think we were using C++, and I think we were making waving flags.

260
00:45:12.060 --> 00:45:25.050
Um, and- One of the idea- ideas for the clone T-shirt that I tried to sell Josh on was, um, they have like the C++ instructions for that first Apple, um, processor image, which was where it said- Mm...

261
00:45:25.060 --> 00:45:37.940
like, "Hello, world." Yes. Or like, "Hello." So that's famous 'cause it's like the first thing they showed on the Mac. Mm-hmm. But I wanted to just print the code instructions for that, like, on the back of the shirt.

262
00:45:38.070 --> 00:45:47.580
Hmm. It would've been fun. I like that. And he was like, "No." I love a back of the shirt print. We decided to do- Yeah, I should've known... global coffee house aesthetic meets pomo instead. Hmm. What's pomo?

263
00:45:48.280 --> 00:45:56.970
Mm, postmodern. Oh. But it's- I thought... I was thinking like of missing out. Like, but what's the P? Well, factory pomo is technically like it's the thing- Purity of missing out...

264
00:45:56.970 --> 00:46:06.729
that kinda looks like the Ayn Rand cover, but there's- Hmm... like some overlapping aesthetic signifiers with the Global Village Coffee House.

265
00:46:06.810 --> 00:46:17.040
'Cause like Global Village Coffee House still has like those figures that look like a little bit like more like stone figures, but they also have the sort of like pipe player stick figure guys. Mm-hmm.

266
00:46:17.140 --> 00:46:27.380
Anyway, um- Life is Good. So sick... it was all sort of happening in the same era. Oh my God, Life is Good. I found my Life is Good daisy hat the other day. Oh, sick. Yeah. I ha- I still have that.

267
00:46:27.540 --> 00:46:34.380
I'll wear it on the pod at some point. Um- I just bought Emma an old Life is Good shirt on, on eBay, speaking of buying- I love that it's like-... things on eBay...

268
00:46:34.460 --> 00:46:41.550
old enough that that's a good camp thing- That it's cool now... to wear now. I was... I mean, in, in elementary school, I was dripping in Life is Good.

269
00:46:41.580 --> 00:46:48.720
That was like, for like Christmas, I got- [laughs] You were dripped out?... like a Life is Good T-shirt. I was dripping. Life is Good- Were you dripped out in Big Dog? No. Big Dog's gotten really political.

270
00:46:48.840 --> 00:46:59.560
No, no Big Dog. [laughs] No, I was... My, my drip was [laughs] my drip was khakis. Um, this is elementary school, mind you. Yeah. Khakis, um, Life is Good long sleeve shirts.

271
00:46:59.620 --> 00:47:10.080
I didn't wear a short sleeve shirt to school until fifth grade, and then a fleece vest. That was the drip. Can we call this episode Dripped Out in Life is Good? [laughs] Dripped Out in Life is Good.

272
00:47:10.360 --> 00:47:21.380
Life is Good Dri- Life is Good Drip. Life is Good Drip. Life is Good Drip. Life is Good Drip. Um, that's [laughs] really funny. Um- Should we end it there? Life is Good. Life- Drip. Life is Good, semicolon, Drip.

273
00:47:22.280 --> 00:47:27.200
This has been Drip Land. Thank you for listening. [laughs] See you next week.

274
00:47:29.640 --> 00:47:42.840
[outro music]