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[upbeat music] Welcome back to Tasteland. I am your co-host, Francis Zeira. And I'm Daisy Aliyaro. And who are we speaking to today, Daisy? Today we're speaking to Greta Rainbow.

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She's an editor at The Creative Independent. She's also an arts columnist for the New York Review of Architecture, and she's the anchor contributor for Dirt's books newsletter, Blank.

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Um, she's a research editor at BDG, and she does fact-checking for a bunch of different places. She also does drawings. She did the artwork for our Peak Object series with Mubi. Mm.

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And she's also been on this podcast before, and I think our first repeat guest. I think she- So I'm really excited to have her here to give some hot literary takes today. Uh, and she is reporting in from Austria. Mm-hmm.

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A foreign correspondent today, if you will. Um, our Austrian desk, uh- We have two foreign correspondents today, but... Real- oh, we do? Mm. Yes. Mm. We'll, we'll let the listeners know about that next week.

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All will be revealed. All will be revealed. Uh, but let's get to the conversation. [upbeat music] You're in Salzburg. You've been there for a month. Non-fiction residency.

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How lucky are you to find this rare non-fiction residency? What have you been working on? I do feel lucky. Um, I... so I have one obligation, which is to review the two summer shows, um- Mm...

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on at the museum, both of which I like. Um, one is this Danish artist, Esben Weile Kjær. My German... uh, that's not even German, that's Danish. [laughs] But any, any, any of these accents I can't do.

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[laughs] Um- That's okay. We, we won't tell the, the Danes. And, and so... [laughs] Yeah, used to me at this point. Um, and he does these, like, kind of crazy, like, commentary on consumer culture.

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It'll be like a, um, Tinky Winky Teletubby, like, cast in bronze and, like a, in, like, the shape of a spider. Um, so that's kind of interesting.

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And then it's paired with this smaller show by this Palestinian artist, Laila Shawa, um, who is very cool and is sort of, sort of like the Andy Warhol of the Arab world. Mm.

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Um, and I feel like hasn't gotten her due and, like, might have a big museum retrospective at some point in the near future. Um, so yeah, I've been, been working on that, but then also some other random things.

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Something About the Summer I Turned Pretty, the Amazon Prime YA show. Mm. We put out Ignofiction. Yeah. We sure did. It's been good. Can you say more about Laila's art? 'Cause I feel like I might have seen it before.

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Like, what's Warhol about it? Yeah. It's a lot of, it's a lot of screen prints, like a lot of multiples. It's... yeah, I think it's, like, really affecting.

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Um, like, she would use, like, photos, like f- from newspapers of Gaza or, like, photos that she took because there's obviously, like, a lack of documentation.

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Um, and then would do a very Warhol, like, add like a bright yellow or a bright blue in an unexpected place. Um, and, and then she also has these

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mannequins that are, like, female mannequin busts, and then with kind of like, like, tacky, like, exotic dancer kind of garb, and then also, like, the accoutrements for a suicide bombing. Um, so those are really intense.

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And so she was, she... something I've been trying to think about is that, like, she gets called, um... like, she's, like, called this, like, um, Islamopop artist. Mm.

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But then that's sort of limiting and, like, most- most, like, her work is very, very feminist, um, and is often, like, about women, like, in broad strokes more than anything. So

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yeah, it's been nice to, like, get so much time to think about one museum show instead of, like, "Okay, I'm gonna, like, see a show one weekend in New York and pump something out." Yeah. That sounds really luxurious.

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What has the response been like to Ignofiction? I think it's been positive. I think more positive than part one, which wasn't negative, but there was a few, a few grumbles, which I guess is gonna happen.

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I was wondering about that as well, and I wonder if just talking about scenes is more of a lightning rod than genre, even though it's like genre seems like it's more important if you're an academic, like, and you're gonna defend anything or get into the trenches.

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Why not do it around genre? Okay, wait, wait, wait. B- before we get too, before we get too deep into this, explain to the listener what you're saying when you say part one and part two. Yeah.

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This is a two-part series, Greta, you published in Dirt. What's part one about? What's part two about? Totally. So the big question is: Where will the next big literary movement come from?

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Um, and then Daisy and I define that as this equation of genre plus scene equals movement. Um, so part one was scene, and, and... but it... and it's not argu- yeah.

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We're basically saying- It's not arguing for a scene so much. Yeah. Like, we're basically saying, like, literary products, literary movements are the product of the actual,

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the actual structure of the work that people are creating and the people around them. Mm-hmm. Sorry to interrupt, Greta. No, that's a great distillation. Yeah, it's coming from these kind of, like, microcosms.

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I like thinking of it as friend groups. Like, maybe that sounds cliquey too, but I think that it doesn't have to be. Um, scenes are so voyeuristic-Um, and definitely, like, the alt-lit scene.

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Yeah, that's people, like, writing about their friends, like, anticipating strangers who have parasocial relationships with the writers, wanting to get some kind of, like, juice out of them.

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Um, and I think the, the future is more, like, people writing about each other, but more, like, for each other. Um, and maybe they're not even leaving these small circles. Um,

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and then part two genre, uh, is looking at autofiction. That was kind of the last, last big genre. Still a big genre, and like everyone I talked to was saying, you know, that's, it's not ever going to go away.

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That's absolutely a part of literary culture and has been for centuries. Um, but I think we're tired of the current...

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The way it looks and feels right now, and has for the last few years. Um, it, it's, it's gotten to that point of cultural products where it's, like, it starts to feel like people are

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replicating the replicas of the replicas, and, um... And I think we're all getting... And then another thing I was thinking about is with AI, um, I didn't like the idea of a really kind of dark, um,

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like we're writing for the machines, which was something that someone said, and it wasn't included [laughs] in the end. I, I can say it.

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Like, Matt Gazda, who wrote Times Square Play, was like, "I think we're gonna see this isolation fiction." Um, and I was like, "I...

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Maybe, but I really kind of hope not, and I don't think it will be as big as this potential other thing," which is this, um, okay, if there's this machine, if there's these algorithms that simply know so much more than me, have so much more capabilities than I do to get information, um,

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then, and parse through it, then let me do the opposite. Um, and so that's ignofiction, like, from ignorance. Yeah.

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I think the, the thing that you're describing, that parasociality, and the, like, knowing, which is really just, like...

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I think it's people that mistake a shared set of references for intelligence, and, like, you and I have talked about this a lot. Like, I'm sure that's, like- Mm...

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a little bit part of why you're happy to be outside New York right now. Like, I think people are starting to understand that having a shared set of references is really not a proxy for intelligence or even compatibility.

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But

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in the sort of autofiction wave that was really characterized by knowing, and the way that you, like, talk about knowing in the piece is, like, knowing how much drugs to take, knowing which subway stop to get off of, knowing which party to go to, and then name-dropping all of those people, has led to a type of guy that I'm calling Disney adults of alt-lit.

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[laughs] And [laughs] the funny thing is, like- That is brutal... this type of person... It is brutal because it is true.

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This type of person is the type of person who would really look down on somebody who goes to Disney World once a year, but it's like you go to Times Square multiple times a week. What does that make you?

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Like- So you're saying if I wanna travel to Norway-... Tao Lin is your Mickey Mouse, and you're gonna sit on Twitter telling other people that their ju- like, their taste sucks and their judgment sucks?

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Look in the mirror. Well, okay- [laughs]...

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so if I was to go to, if I wanna go to Norway, and go to Bergen and Kristiansund, and, uh, you know, g- walk, walk the cobbles that, that Knausgaard himself has walked, I gue- okay, I, actually, I guess that would be a Disney adult of autofiction, not a Disney adult of, um, alt-lit.

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No, you would be a Disney adult of Knausgaard- A Disney adult-... specifically... of Knausgaard. Which I am... like, if you go to Dublin and you take the Ulysses tour, that is not- Yeah... um, Disney adult behavior.

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How is that not Disney adult behavior? Because your relationship to, is to the work. Mm-hmm. Not to- Not necessarily. Okay.

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Well, if you, like, dressed up like James Joyce to do the tour, I would say that that's Disney adult behavior. Yeah. Okay. So if I, if I chain-smoked [laughs] while walking around...

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Uh, okay, I'm, I'm really beating a dead horse here. Um, back on topic, Disney adult, alt-lit. Um, take me, take me out of, [laughs] take me out of this. Save me. I mean, uh, so we...

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I sort of pitched this to Greta as, like, this is, this is a podcast for literary hot takes, and that, that was not my hot take. That was lukewarm. I am coming in with a hot take, though,

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which is I finally read Perfection. Mm. And I enjoyed it, but to me that was not a novel. I think it's a parable of modernity. I would agree, yeah. Yeah, but, uh- I like that... it's...

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You're not supposed to, like, see Anna and Tom as, like, characters, and- No... for that reason, it was- There's not a line of dialogue in the pi- in the piece. There's not a line of dialogue in the piece.

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I would say the book is hollow. It's purposely hollow, but, um, I do not think it will join the canon of high literature, um, for that reason. Well, it- it- it's a, it's a cover...

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it should've been, it should've been a Verso pamphlet. It's a cover of a novel from, like, I th- I believe it's the '60s, right? Yes. Yes, yes. He's basically just saying, like, let's, like, that was a mirror...

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I forget the name of that book, but it's like that was a mirror held up to, like, m-Parisian society in the, in the '60s, and, like, consumerism rising then, I think it has changed enough that it's time to hold up that mirror again 50, 60 years later- Yes...

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to a new era. I- So that's what it is... I believe that he achieved what he set out- Yeah... to do. Um, but I did not, did not close it with the sense of, like, having read a good novel. Yeah. Um, and, like, that's okay.

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Yeah, I'm a, I'm a defender as well. I totally agree with you, Daisy, and I like the idea of something that comes packaged like a book and you read in the way that you would read a novel, but it isn't a novel.

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Um, I'm kinda... I'm down for that. Um, I think I just read The Use of Photography, um, by Annie Ernaux and her lover.

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Um, it does the, like, first name, I think Marc Marie maybe, um, first name initial thing. Mm. And that is also not... Like, there is, like, a, like, propulsion and, like, time is passing, and

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there's, like, dramas and things, but it's definitely not a novel. Um, I mean, it's not even fiction. So yeah, I guess I'm, I'm, like, cool with

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the form being played with, but then it still being a book. I, I guess there's something, like... 'Cause there is something really internetty, internetty about Perfection. Mm-hmm.

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No, it's about, it's about, like, life mediated through the internet, right?

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Like, it opens with that, the description of an Airbnb posting that's, like, all, like, listing, like, Moroccan rugs and, like, you know, a coy nod to 032c magazine. Guys, it's Pilgrim's Progress for the Substack era.

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[laughs] I love that opening. I liked... Because yeah, it's like, I guess it's doing all these weird things because it is- It's a long-form Airbnb listing... this, like- Like, what...

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I would actually really respect it if Unchindo popped back up and was like, "This was a commercial for my Airbnb that you can now stay in." It i- this is a spoiler alert. Yeah.

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If I was in Berlin, like, I would, like, and I had an Airbnb, I would literally just refashion it after the novel and start renting it out to Disney adults. To Berlinzinho. Bro, it's not over.

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To Berlinzinho, to Berghain adults. Yeah, Berlin is... It's not over. It's never over. It's like The Notebook. [laughs] "It wasn't over for me." Never watched it. Airbnb is kind of over, though. Yeah.

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I stayed in an Airbnb last weekend in Vienna, and it was the situa- it was like the, it was like what Airbnb was s- supposed to be originally.

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Like, clearly this woman's apartment, um, with all of her personal belongings. Mm. And I really didn't like it. Hotels are clear. I was like, "I don't wanna see that. I don't wanna see your clothes." [laughs] Mm-hmm.

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I feel like an Airbnb is- You should... is only, is best now for, like, if you're, like, wanna stay in, like, a nice cabin in the woods or something like that.

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Like, if you're in a city, a hotel is generally gonna just be way better. Yeah, house rental versus apartment rental. Mm-hmm. Yeah, I don't wanna stay in somebody's second-floor Bushwick tenement apartment.

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[laughs] Hotels are expensive now, like, no matter- Yeah... where you go, and it's like they obviously are more expensive in New York.

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But when I was driving to Atlanta, I think I, the hotel I stayed in was, like, I wanna say, like, $150. And it was kind of in the middle of nowhere, so- Yeah... I mean, not the middle of nowhere.

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It was in Roanoke, Virginia. But, um, I looked up the median price for a hotel room in the US, and it is around $150, which to me sounds crazy for the median because that includes- Yeah... hotels literally everywhere.

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Mm-hmm. So, like, I think that you really can't pay less than $100 for a hotel room, no matter if it's, like, a random motel or, um, whatever, which is like...

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I don't know, that seems crazy to me, but maybe I just- Yeah... don't know how much things cost. Groceries, how much could they cost?

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Just think of, think about, like, the vast, like, spectrum of experiences you've had in a hotel- Mm-hmm... and that every single one of them falls between $100 and $300.

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Like, I can't really think of any other category where that would be the case. I can tell you the worst, um, hotel, this was a motel, I've ever stayed in. Uh, it was in Atlantic City.

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Um- Well, that's your fault for going to Atlantic City. [laughs] It was. I never wanna go back there. Um, Daisy, okay, you said, you were saying before we started podding that you read three books on Sunday. I did.

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I read three books on Sunday. I over-caffeinated. I stayed up till 4:00 AM. I would say this is, like, this also might have affected my perception of Perfection. I made the audacous, audacious choice

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to read Perfection sandwiched between two books about suicide. So I read Suicide by Édouard Levé, and then I read Perfection, and then I read The Guardian by, or The Guardians by Sara Mancuso.

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So the first one is, um, for those that don't know, all of these books are around, like, between 100 to 150 pages. The first one is a book that, um, Levé wrote in

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second person, so, like, you do this, you do that. So it starts off with you committing suicide. Um, and he turned the book in, and then, like, very shortly after, he killed himself.

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So the book has this notoriety about it. Um- Mm... there are resemblances in you to the author and not. Um, so I read that 'cause I had read Autoportrait last year, and I felt like

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this is, um-Part of understanding his body of work I've never read a single thing from him. I don't know anything about him I was afraid to read it.

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I was like, "I think if I read this something bad will happen," but I did read it, and then I was like, "Ooh, I got a, I need a palate cleanser. I'm gonna read Perfection."

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So I read Perfection, then after that I was like, "I need another palate cleanser" [laughs] And I don't feel sleepy at all. So- Mm-hmm...

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uh, then I read The Guardians, which was also on my list, which is Sarah Manguso's, um, putting the pieces together after her really good friend, um, commits suicide. Mm.

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So I think my problem here is then I should've read another book as a palate cleanser, but then I did go to sleep, and so [laughs]

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I might just, like, be coming on this podcast in the wake of having done this, like, really weird combination of a reading experience. Hmm. Um, and I might need to, like, close the loop by reading something else silly.

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I did start Discontent last night, which is by Beatriz, um... What's her last name? I'm kinda- Beatriz Serrano... are you gonna read, like, a feel-good book? Well, books don't- 'Cause those exist...

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aren't supposed to make you feel good, Francis. I know. I don't know what you mean by this. That's, that's ex- [laughs] That's kind of what I'm saying.

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I'm, I'm looking- Discontent is giving some Perfection vibes, so maybe I'm just- Hmm... stuck in a loop right now where everything I read is either, like, a hollow parable of modernity or about, like, killing yourself.

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I'm trying to think of a good palate cleanser for you. I'm gonna say one, and it's one I've talked about [laughs] and so we should talk about it Not Tree Dreams. Shut up. It's not Tree Dreams.

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It's, it's Hill- [laughs]... by Jean, by Jean Giono, which I talked about after, when I read it- He's-... back in, like, January... a Disney adult for Hill. It's kind of an issue.

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Okay, I- He, like, every time he sees a hill he's like that- [laughs]... Leo DiCaprio pointing meme. Like, that's just like the book Hill. No, okay, okay, okay, okay. [laughs] It's a great palate cleanser.

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It's about nature. It's vivid. You know, the seasons are changing. Nature's on our mind. [laughs] Um, no, I'm serious. You should read that.

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I, I also read a book, um, finished a book last night that, um, is, uh, in part about, about a suicide attempt, um, which is I Regret Almost Everything by Heath McNally. Oh, I didn't know- Mm...

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that that was an aspect to it. Well, did you finish it? I finished it, yeah. I r- it was, it was quick What did you think? It was... I really liked it. Okay.

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It's like, um, I mean, if you've read his Instagram posts, you- Sure have... yeah, then you know what it's about. I swear that some of those... Well, I mean, I don't even have to say I swear.

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I know that some of those Instagram posts were, like, interpolated into the book, or vice versa, um, where, like, I think he's posted excerpts from the book many times. But it's, I mean, it's really fun.

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He has such a, like, distinctive voice.

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Um, he's lived an interesting life, and he's just writing about the interesting life that's- His description of his perfect first date, which I think, I don't know if it was an Instagram caption first- Mm...

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but it's, like, an answer that he gave Nikolia, I think, at i-D- Mm-hmm... um, has just been living rent-free in my brain. Well, remind us of it.

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[laughs] It's just, like, this whole long thing, like, oh, we go to a wine bar, we have a nice dinner, we see a film, we have, like, crazy hot sex, and we lie in the dark, and we miss our spouses.

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[laughs] I don't remember that one from the book, so. Um, I think it might've been a, an interview ab- e- a book tour special. Mm, mm. Um, which it's like, as much as, like,

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Heath is sort of like Fran Lebowitz if Fran could, like, write anything on the page- [laughs]... and that, like, he's just, like, a, a machine of cultural production through commentary and aphorisms. Yeah. Um,

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like, I think that there's certain figures and writers who eventually just produce more material through conversation than they do through their books. Mm-hmm.

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And that figure is obviously going extinct, possibly should be extinct for a reason. Well, isn't that kind [laughs] of what a podcast is? I, yeah, and also having a Twitter. Yeah.

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Um, I guess I have to say, like, I do not ever wanna be known more for, like, things that I've publicly said than for, like, my work. Mm. But I don't know. Maybe that is what it is to be- Um-... an influencer.

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Yeah, I really, um- We're gonna let Fran speak... don't do well. [laughs] See, see this is the problem is I'm, like, not naturally gonna speak up. Like, I...

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And even if I'm, like, having emotional conflicts with, like, friends or something, it's like, "I'm sorry, I gotta Notes app about it. Like, and then we can- Mm... we can re- regroup." I'm bad at thinking on the fly.

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Wait, the thing about, um, Heath McNally's book, I found it weird that it came out right when Graydon Carter's did given their beef. Mm. And I was wondering if anyone knows anything about that.

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Well, you know, from the pod- I'll just throw that out to the universe... Nick Susie once said, "If you want to [laughs] start a, if you wanna sell books- Yeah... start a war."

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[laughs] There's no accidents in publishing. [laughs] No. Um, yeah, they're b- both being talked about a lot.

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I, I, I have heard, I feel like, I feel like I heard that the Graydon Carter one is, like, only a third of it is really interesting, whereas I hadn't heard about, about the Heath McNally one, so I was more keen to read the Heath McNally one, which still I've still never been to one of his restaurants.

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Um, I would like to someday, probably will. I don't understand how that's possible. Well, one, um, I don't live or work in Manhattan. Um, [clicks tongue] uh, and two, this is a, this is actually, this is a similar thing.

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When I lived in New Orleans, which is a city with a lot of old storied restaurants, right? I never went to any of them.

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I, I would go to newer restaurants, and, like, it's some, I think it's, like, some kind of a addiction to the new, to discover it, to, like, being able to, like, say, like, "Oh, I went to this restaurant," uh, which as we've discussed on this podcast before I've been kind of trying to rid myself of this, like, addiction to, to the new, especially with restaurants.

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Um, but yeah, it's like I get that Balthazar is good. I get that- Well, it's not good... that it's not... No. I, I was gonna say- I stay going though.

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[laughs] I get that it's not about the food, and it's about the vibe, and it's about being there, but it's like sure, cool, but I'd rather, like, go to somewhere where, like, the, the, the groove of the record isn't so deeply worn.

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I don't know. Oh, the groove of the recordWell, um, on that note [laughs] Okay, what is this Lamb book about? I have no idea. I've never... I don't know anything about it. Okay. So it's like a family, uh, drama so far.

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I am not that far in, um, but it's like each chapter is a different family member's perspective. But I wanted to address something in it as part of, like, hot takes slash- Mm... pet peeves. Nerd speak.

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Literary pet peeves. So the first sentence is about, let me pull it up, um, is about gnats. Like- Mm. Like, the bug. Yeah, hate 'em. G-N-A-T. And- Love gnats. I hate that they're in the book...

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that was our, that's our episode title. Literary gnats. And then- Yeah, literary gnats, that's our episode title...

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so the rest of the book, well, I guess the, like, next few, you know, I've only read the next few chapters, but I think it keeps going, is that any time there is a silent

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N, or, ugh, no, it's not a silent N. But okay, let me find an example. Basically, where there should just be an N, it's a G-N. Hm. For example, [laughs]

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the premier gateway for domestic and intergnational trade, international trade- Oh, whoa... has an inter G-N-A- Yeah... T, blah, blah, blah. A lot of silent Gs that are not silent. What do you guys think about that?

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So thank you, silent G- Yeah... [laughs] silent Gs. Um- I think that's really fun. Have you finished the book, like, will for the reason for this be revealed? [laughs] Really.

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Well, for now she's on the edge of her seat with all of us, and you, listener. Um, I, I, I, I like that. I think that's really fun. It's like, I mean, it's memorable.

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It's like, like, it's gonna make me, like, itch- It's memorable... when I read it. There was that book, um, that has no, Gatsby, that has no, like, the letter E. It, there's no letter E for 300 pages. Mm. Oh, yeah.

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Um, so there is, yeah, so there, like, there is some kind of, uh- That's performative... thing going on there. Yeah, I guess I'm, I will be annoyed if there is no reason for it. There's no payoff. Because then it... Mm.

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Yeah. Because then it just feels like another thing trying to set you apart, um, which I guess would be, like, a pet peeve of mine right now. Mm.

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An- another example of that is books that have, uh- Would you call that a gimmick with an N?... intertextual... [laughs] It's a nimmick. It's anemic. Anemic literature, anemic lit.

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[laughs] Uh, gimmick lit, that is, that is bad. Like, we do not wanna be going in that direction. Like a, like a pop-up book. [laughs] Um... [laughs] Show some respect. Okay, that's kinda cool. Oh. Pet the bind.

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[laughs] But p- but there is this, like, picture book thing going on- Mm...

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um, of adding images, and in sort of this, like, Austerlitz by Seybold, uh, Seybold, however you say, way, that, like, that, his use of that is obviously really intentional.

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Um, and then I've read a few books where it's literally stock images, like Library of Congress, like, nothing, um, that are slotted in, like, you know, maybe, like, eight times throughout the book

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as a little fun extra. And it's weird. It feels like filler. Um, and I, and I understand the, like,

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you know, we're, we're trying, it's like this battle for attention, and that is something that is gonna make people do a double-take when they have 10 seconds to flip through it- Yeah... at the bookstore. Um, but that,

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yeah, it's not, it's not, it's not fair to the reader [laughs] who then, like, goes through the whole thing and you're like, "This, I didn't need these here."

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I think, like, sometimes the way that a book is conceived can include something that ultimately doesn't play a big role in the experience of reading it- Mm-hmm...

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but the, the marketing around the book or the, the author's, like, elevator pitch for the book doesn't really change to, like, accommodate that. So, like, I just read- Like what? Mm...

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um, Grand Rapids by Natasha Stagg- Mm... and reviewed it for the Whitney Review, and I filed my review last night. And, um,

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in the description of the book on the Semiotexte site, it specifically calls out the Alexander Calder sculpture that is in Grand Rapids, and it's, like, a big site in Grand Rapids.

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So I'm expecting it to play a big role in the book, and, like, I swear to God it's mentioned, like, twice, and that was so confusing to me.

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Because I have the type of brain where it's like, if somebody drops, like, a detail, I'm like, "All right, hold onto that. That's [laughs] gonna be important later."

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[laughs] If it's not important later, like, you and I are gonna have beef. Like, because I, I kept that tab open in my brain for what?

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Um, so I kind of, I kind of think I understand what you're saying, but, um, to be clear, I did really like Grand Rapids and I recommend it. Okay, wait, wait.

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So I'm gonna, I'm gonna read the book description for this, um, uh, for, for, uh, for Grand Rapids. So- Okay...

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installed alongside the Grand River in downtown Grand Rapids, Michigan, Alexander Calder's public sculpture, Le Grand Vitesse, has come to celeb- has come to symbolize the city.

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Tess moves there from Ypsilanti, Michigan, in 2001, the same year that her mother dies, when nearly everything begins to move for her in slow motion.

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Thr- thrust into adolescence nearly rudderless, 15-year-old Tess is intoxicated, angsty, and sexually awake.

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A decade later, inspired by diary entries and TV reruns, she remembers this summer in the suburbs as the one that redefined her.

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Its echoes of death are frozen in time, like the waves represented in the Calder sculpture, or the concrete steps leading down to the churning river.

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She comes to see Grand Rapids as a collection of architecture and emblems, another home to which she cannot return. Okay, so there's two mentions here.

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I swear to God, the sculpture does not matter at allOkay, but it's just a metaphor, right? Like, for the- I guess, but it's just not important to the book. Mm-hmm. Like, I really kept waiting, and I'm still waiting.

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This is... So i- i- it's kinda like, um- It's so funny... unless I read it wrong. [laughs] It's like when they say the name of the movie in the movie type of thing. Yeah. My Little Women. It's... I mean, it, [laughs]

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it's another good example of like- I have one little woman... the- And that's... It's just Greta. [laughs] Yeah. Okay, well, okay, wait, wait. That's... I, I don't. Back to the book. Back to the book. I don't.

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[laughs] That's crazy. Tell, tell us more about that. Amy is crazy work. I, I think Natasha Stagg has written a s- another novel. I've written, I've writ- I've read her two other books. Did you read Sleepless?

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S- Sleepless. Yeah. I like them a lot. Um- I like Sleepless a lot, too... those are really fun books, but I have not read... I think she has another novel, doesn't she? I've not read it, though.

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That came out after Sleepless? Yeah. I don't know. She does. Yeah. Yeah. See, that I didn't read. But I did- It's the one that's got a Brian, Brian Calvin painting as the cover.

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Oh, she always has a Brian Calvin painting. No, no, no, no, no. Her other novel, I swear. Okay. Oh. Uh, who's on first anyways? You know, you're right. It is Brian Calvin. Um- Um- Surveys, that's her novel. Surveys, yes.

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2016. So- Yeah... the Calder sculpture, I mean, it makes sense for her, for... Yeah, it makes sense for, like, the author of Sleepless to have this, like, yeah, art object and famous name stand in for, like,

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sophistication or whatever it is. Um, I'm excited to read the book. Mm. But... And it's another thing that can really irk me.

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Um, I've written about this before, of, like, uh, internet references, um, as, like, lazy shortcuts in fiction, but when done well, it's, yeah, really, like, exhilarating.

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And, um, yeah, it doesn't, it doesn't necessarily feel lazy, and it can invite, like, a conversation with the reader and expand the world, but not always. But I- I'm confident she does it well. No, it wasn't like, uh...

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There isn't, like, art critic name-dropping in it at all. Um, if anything, it's, like, sort of... If there's any form that it incorporates, it's, like, of reality TV and the experience of watching early reality TV.

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In the book- Mm... the flashbacks start, like, immediately post 9/11, basically. But it also doesn't do anything weird or cliche with 9/11. So, um, my, that...

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My one, like, sort of point of confusion was with, like, the space that Calder took up in the marketing 'cause, like, this book is like... To me, it's about growing up in the Midwest, lower middle class.

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Um, and even the narrator in the present doesn't seem to have, like, a lot of art references or interest in it. So, um, I actually really liked that. I found it really refreshing. I wonder why they put it in there.

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Right? So now it's gonna bother you. Not gonna bother me. I'm unbothered. Yeah. Maybe this is bait for, like, the Semiotextes, the person who goes to the Semiotexte site and is just browsing. Yeah.

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Well, it's like- I didn't consider that. Mm-hmm. It's, it's the...

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It's something, you know, when you're at McNally Jackson, and you're looking at the, the new fiction table, and you pick something up, and you don't know who Natasha Stagg is, and you read the back, and you say, "Oh, I saw that retrospective at MoMA," and then you buy it.

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It's like with the literary movement article where you're like, "Oh, I know that Jenny Holzer quote." Mm-hmm. "But it's just my friend, redacted's, lower back tattoo." [laughs] What's that Jenny Holzer quote?

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Uh, um- Wait. Yeah. It's- Uh, un- unfulfilled references, um, come as great surprise. Right. Sorry, that was a horrible joke. I don't like that. Men don't, men don't podcast with you anymore.

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[laughs] Is that also a Jenny Holzer quote? It's a b- it's a butchered one. [laughs] I didn't know... I, I did not know the, how you got that image. How did I get it? She texted me a photo of her tattoo after...

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It was, like, while it was still, like, bleeding ink, and I was like, "That's great. That's a cover photo." Wow. Always be- Wow... archiving. That's also- Yeah... that's also a Jenny Holzer. ABA.

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[laughs] Let's talk about books that we hate. [laughs] That's a tough one. There's only one book I think I can think of that I haven't finished in recent years- Hmm...

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by an author that I do really like, but it w- it's... I think it was his first book or just an early one. Um, and that is V. by Thomas Pynchon. I got halfway, maybe a third through, and I put it down.

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I just thought it was not very good. Um, later on, uh, I've...

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The other ones I've read by him, I've read Inherent Vice, Vineland, Bleeding Edge, and in all of these, you know, he kind of weaves his tapestry, and there's all these characters and lines, and he manages to kinda make them mesh.

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Um, and it, and it makes sense. But V., I just felt that he was, like, kind of failing to do that, like all these threads just sort of frayed.

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Um, and it was- Thomas Pynchon is, like, one of those up-and-coming writers that you're just hearing about more and more. [laughs] Um, but I don't know whether he...

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He might just, like, shine bright and- Okay, you're just bitter 'cause you haven't gotten a galley. Neither have I, but I didn't talk about it. No, this is the, this is the thing. Neither have I.

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You know I'm fundamentally not a joiner, and- Mm-hmm... if a- somebody sent me a galley that was numbered, I would feel embarrassed about it.

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I would feel embarrassed for my participation in an apparatus that thinks it's a, that's a cool thing to do. I don't believe you. [laughs] That's fine. You don't have to believe me. Well, okay.

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But the proof is in the fact that I don't have one, so. Mm-hmm. Yeah, I guess it's like, would, would you post it if you got it, you know? 'Cause think of all the, think of all the numbered people who haven't posted.

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That's very- Mm... respectable. Their numbers weren't low enough. Mm. [laughs] Right? I'm g- I'm gonna read it. I, I, I can't wait to read it. It's gonna be good. If you're not number one- You're a loser?

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Well, you're just not number one. Mm. And I can't... Because I didn't get one-Nobody can say what number I would have been, so. Okay. Schrödinger's- Uh... PR play. Well, you know, like, I've told this story before.

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Like, when I left the line for the Drift party, and then there was- [laughs]... a New York Times article that referenced the line, and I got to say I wasn't in that line. Yeah. You know what I mean?

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Like, somebody's out there sitting on, like, 199 out, out of 200, and I get to say, "That didn't happen to me." So- Hm. Like, that's... You were, you were literally an afterthought.

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They were like, "Okay, we thought of 195 people who are important in the literary community. Let's add like five more," and you got bumped up from the B team. We're not on the B team.

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I would set- We're not even on the C team... I would set my galley on fire. I would set my galley on fire if I was higher than 150. [laughs] I'm just gonna say it. [laughs] I don't know how to, like, make it clear.

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[laughs] No one cares. But I'm like, I really, really don't care about getting the Pynchon galley. [laughs] But Greta, if you got an email that was like- You know, if I'll maybe not read it in a few years...

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"Meet and greet with Thomas Pynchon, trust, I will show up." Well, that's 'cause he doesn't do them. "I will feed him pellets." Yeah, that's- Okay, okay, okay. Wait, this is not about Pynchon.

200
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Okay, so that, that's a book that I do not like. I don't wanna meet any author that wants to meet me. What are books that you guys hated recently? [laughs] Or ever. I don't read, so I don't, I couldn't say. Jesus Christ.

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I didn't like the new Cusk, and I'm on the record. I... Like, the, the, the Parade? Never read it. Um, I wrote a pan of that- Hm... for the Whitney Review, and it did end up being on the cover of that issue. You did.

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And, um, I was right. What was like... There was a signature line in that that I feel like it might be worth revisiting. I haven't read that, but I read the Outline trilogy last summer. Um, and I loved it. Oh, I see.

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Yeah. This was a... I came in pretty hot on this. "Anyone's style becomes tedious in excess, and Cusk is no exception.

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Cusk may not believe in character, as she has told interviewers, but does she believe puppetry is a reasonable alternative?" Oof.

205
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"By the end of Parade, I was hoping that at least one character would put their foot in their mouth or order a death doula, as one character describes, to creep through the door with a hammer and put them out of their misery."

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Okay, so that's, like, some projection maybe. But yeah, the book did make me feel like I want somebody to hit me with a hammer. [laughs] And I had to, we had to go out of wa- our way to ask for that galley, so.

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How was the reception in general for that book? I can't remember. Parade? Do you remember? Um- Yeah... everyone pretended to like it and then two-panned it. [laughs] Hm. And I think that the, in memory, it was...

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In the memory, the critical reception was bad, but I remember when all the sheep were, were liking it, so. All the cusks. This is a thing that happens- Cusk cats... like- One little cusks. Well- [laughs]

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One little cusks of auto-fiction. [laughs] That is good. Wait, Greta, you and I should do a zine that's just no Francis, just you and I, um, just descriptions- [laughs]... of a rich person's dinner party.

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[laughs] Just dinner party all the way down. That's def- [laughs] That sounds like a Molly Young project that I would buy. I think we should do it. Um, I have a lot of...

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I'm defin- That's, yeah, the next thing to be thinking about is the dinner party novel, um, and why are people obsessed. I have a problem with, like...

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I feel like I often, like, I choose books that I think I'm gonna like usually.

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I have my list of books that I read since 2020 pinned to my Twitter profile, and each of them is hyperlinked to my Bookshop referral code, so I'm literally, like, referral- Oh...

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revenue farming off of my own reading list. Whoa. How many, how many dollars have you made? Three? Wait, yeah. Like- You're a book influencer... none. None. [laughs] Um, I haven't made any off of that list.

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I do, I have, I can see, like, what people buy that's linked in blank, which is actually really helpful from an analytics perspective. Hm. Um- Oh, that's cool...

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but nobody's bought anything off of my personal reading list, or if they did, they didn't do it through Bookshop. Is this in order? Um, yeah. Yeah, it looks like it. Nice. You can see I already added that, uh- Yeah...

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my Sunday triple feature. You did, Sunday scaries. That was really a weird choice on my part. Um- Julia Fox wrote a book? She did. It's actually really intense. Oh. Oh, yeah.

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I, I DNF'd that, as the Goodreads people would say. How come? Hm. [laughs] Did not finish. Um, I couldn't deal [laughs] with... I really didn't get very far.

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Also, I was listening to the audiobook, which I hardly ever do- Hm... but thought that that was kind of like a novelty thing 'cause she was reading it. Hm. Um, I think maybe it would've been better if I hadn't done that.

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Um, and then I was also [laughs] like, I was just not interested in her. It starts when she's, like, two years old. I was like, "You don't remember these things." Hm. Like, you don't remember- No, that's autopilot...

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it, it, it felt like this [laughs]... It was like it was a weird, like, cliche, like, like, like, my, like, Italian papa was bouncing me on his knee while feeding me red sauce. Hm. And I didn't like it.

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I do not have any memories from being two. I sort of, like, blinkered into existence on the day Princess Diana died, and that's when my memory begins, so. Okay. So you're, so you're saying you're a reincarnation?

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I'm not saying that. I'm just saying that, like, that's when I really plugged into the matrix of our collective unconscious. Hm.

224
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Um, so that if I, if I do write a novel, every person will receive a numbered galley with a Princess Diana Beanie Baby. Um, we were told that they would be worth a lot. They are not. But in bait for

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underpaid literary critics, could be worth their weight in gold. Hm. And they will be numbered. They will be numbered. And I will take all the stuffing out, and I will restuff them with pills.

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I think my earliest memory- [laughs]... is I was like three, and we were in the woods mushroom hunting, um, for, like, chanterelles or something like that. Oh. And, uh- My first memory is foraging for chanterelles.

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Forage... No, but okay, what's interesting about it and why I remember it is, like, then, like, some, like, cattle farmer or whatever was then herding his cows also through the woods at the moment.

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And so I just have this image of like, 'cause I'm a tiny baby, you know, of this image of these big cows- [gasps]... coming through the woods. This is so Youth coded. It's green. Greta and I- Mm-hmm...

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absolutely love the film Youth by Sorrentino, and you need- Mm-hmm... to watch it. Okay. Tonight. Well, I'm gonna go watch it right now. We're gonna end the episode- All right. I'll read Hill... right here.

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This is Taste Lead. Greta, thank you for coming back on. Thank you, Greta. Maybe our first repeat guest, I think. Oh, my God.

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